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View Full Version : Besides new features, what can NT do to improve LW's marketing



SP00
08-13-2006, 06:42 AM
With all the talks about new features. I figure we need to step back and focus on the marketing side of things. How can NT improve the image and marketing of LW given its current technology. This thread is not about what LW should have, it is just about idea of how to position LW in this market place.

Here are some of my ideas.

1) release a demo reel of all the movies LW has been used in and place it on the website. No need to limit it to only a list. Show us.
2) Tackle the schools and show them that LW is a great program for people to learn 3D. After they learn the concept and theory behind 3D, they can tranfers that knowledge to any software program.
3) Contact FX house and work out a deal were they will mention LW in interviews.
4) Setup meeting with some VisualFX house and offer LW at a much reduce price. Offer them training for LW and integretion into their pipeline. Mention how cheap it is and how it will save them money and how the program will save them time.

cresshead
08-13-2006, 07:05 AM
demo of lw9 on disc and download..

Emmanuel
08-13-2006, 07:12 AM
Best of LW DVD included with every package.

Thor Simpson
08-13-2006, 08:09 AM
I'll be interested to see what people come up with here.

Your #1 idea, which I think most people would like to see, unfortuantely is probably not likely because of copyright issues.

Bog
08-13-2006, 08:36 AM
Demo versions for download and on disk, yes, would be a Really Big Thing. It seems that a week doesn't go past without at least one person asking for an LW9 demo on here. Give demo content away *with* the demo CD - but really shiny stuff, the best of the best when people hit F9. When you're learning LW, yes, the demo content that shows you how to take babysteps is great - on a demo disk, though, just show the most impressive possible material.

A few more case-studies in publications wouldn't hurt, preferably of higher-profile movie and episodic TV work. Not that I'm knocking covering smaller studios ;)

Stop demoing logo work at shows so much, start demoing comp shots, character rigs, IKBoosted stuff, explosions - sexy things which you can then run a "Here's one I rendered earlier" clip, showing swizzy characters and Stuff Blowing Up. We know a lot of industry types need their logos, but LW's much more than that - be nice to see some of the Heavy Messing being demoed.

Tour various production facilities which have been strictly Maya/Max/XSI, with a powerful laptop and a couple of demo artists to show how LightWave can tackle some of the shots they're doing or have done, but faster or better. Make it personal to people who're already making a living doing this that they could be getting home to see their husbands and wives earlier in the day, or making things look better.

Emphasise power and completeness in marketting LW, rather than price and ease of use. Make a point of the highest-end stuff it's been used on. Mention that it's been HD ready for years, that it's using state-of-the-art features.

Just a couple of immediate thoughts, really.

hrgiger
08-13-2006, 08:37 AM
1. Offer competitive discounts for other packages. I'm not sure if these are all hardware locked, but let people from XSI foundation, C4D, Maya complete turn in their dongles or other licensing objects for a discount or even swap for a license of Lightwave 9.

2. Send promtional material and offer bundle discounts for schools that offer classes in 3D graphics and design.

3. Seek to offer more bundled software at a discount. Bundle Lightwave with other packages that are commonly used with Lightwave like ZBrush.

4. More internet ads on discussion boards frequented by 3D artists.

5. An annual demo reel featuring all projects that used Lightwave for the previous year.

GandB
08-13-2006, 08:39 AM
Mention how cheap it is...

I think you mean how "inexpensive" it is.:thumbsup:

-Keith

private
08-13-2006, 08:43 AM
1. Have a downloadable demo. It is really unbelievable how much double talk and delays there has been in this area.

2.Have someone on staff that puts out training videos every day, from the small simple stuff to very complex stuff. The more training out there for free, the more knowledgeable the users and the more likely they are going to upgrade or stick with the software. (a torrent distribuation would be the best)

3. More Proton whenever possible!

GandB
08-13-2006, 08:44 AM
I also think more emphasis on the game industry (especially the Indy Game Developers) will yield results. I hear too often in my field that 3DS Max is the way to go for proffessional game development. I can point them to the Serious Sam series, but that's about it. More exposure to game developers, and more case studies of finished games using Lightwave would help.

-Keith

metahumanity
08-13-2006, 08:47 AM
I think you mean how "inexpensive" it is.:thumbsup:

-Keith


"Affordable"

GandB
08-13-2006, 08:49 AM
That's good too.:)

WilliamVaughan
08-13-2006, 09:09 AM
1. Offer competitive discounts for other packages. I'm not sure if these are all hardware locked, but let people from XSI foundation, C4D, Maya complete turn in their dongles or other licensing objects for a discount or even swap for a license of Lightwave 9.




NewTek currently has a Companion upgrade. You can get LW for $495 if you own another 3d app. You dont have to turn in your dongle....Use LW along side your other 3d apps.

Bog
08-13-2006, 09:23 AM
NewTek currently has a Companion upgrade. You can get LW for $495 if you own another 3d app. You dont have to turn in your dongle....Use LW along side your other 3d apps.

That I didn't know. I'm off to email... er... quite a few people...

*edit* Pogging Photoshop is companion upgrade material?!?!?!?!!!!

*witter*

coremi
08-13-2006, 10:09 AM
DEMO, i still don't understand why there is no demo availeble for download. U should also get a demo to all computer related magazines.
One great thing was done in my oppinion, instead of offering i don't know wich application for free they offered LWCad, awesome ideea, the result was a lot of people happy, a very happy developer, wich brought a super update LWCad 2, and the users could upgrade for a small amount of money, and get a great updated tool. This should be done with things like Maestro, some of Pictrix plugins etc... so 3rd party developers make some money, bring updates, they feel like their are part of something good that is growing, also the same thing applied for Tutorial makers, like Kurv, Splinegod, Ablan, Desktop Images etc... This way we'll get also a great starting point beside the manual.

hrgiger
08-13-2006, 10:12 AM
NewTek currently has a Companion upgrade. You can get LW for $495 if you own another 3d app. You dont have to turn in your dongle....Use LW along side your other 3d apps.

Good to know. Thanks Proton.
Maybe that's the problem though. I didn't know they offered it, perhaps not a lot of people who own other packages know that. Maybe that's something that could be put into an ad campaign.

Penforhire
08-13-2006, 10:24 AM
I think how they need to market depends on the targeted buyer.

For the true CGI professional I think a "best of" animation and single image gallery is the way to go. They probably just need to see that it can do what they need it to do and can otherwise spend the cash easily on one of the less expensive tools around. Getting good press on every professional use is another must-do.

Also I don't figure you can ignore "new features" in terms of hardware acceleration. The CAD pros I work with enjoy the benefit of having the latest hardware compliment the software. The video end of LW is lacking if Quadro and other workstation cards don't show a noticeable ease in handling bigger models and scenes along with improved OpenGL texturing.

For locking students in they have to give it away for university installations.

The downloadable demo version is probably the tool most needed to attract hobbyists like me. Newtek does an admirable job of hosting tutorial content but the effect is hodge-podge. They should work harder on indexing such content to the manual and fleshing it out, again for guys like me. When I look up, say, Particles in the manual I should be able to pull up tutorial content either in-line or linked right there. Many functions are provided that require nearly-blind trial and error when a bit of sharing-the-wisdom, or even just more examples, would speed things up (e.g. DOF settings or reconstruction filter choice in the render). Um, yeah, "More Proton!"

Something that certainly affects every market is improving ease of installation. The "LW 9 versus firewall or anti-virus" hub issues should have been either fixed or given to the user in press-this-button-to-resolve terms.

I know Newtek's position on the dongle but don't pretend it doesn't affect sales. Too many older computer geeks have a healthy fear of dongles, even though this one doesn't seem to screw anything up. The issue of the benefit of copy protection is probably what I'm thinking at root. The biggest software in the world got there by being widely pirated. When they're on top they now use techniques to reduce piracy but I think that only has value when you are already a market leader. Meanwhile it just reduces exposure and prevents you from becoming the leader.

jeremyhardin
08-13-2006, 12:10 PM
Good to know. Thanks Proton.
Maybe that's the problem though. I didn't know they offered it, perhaps not a lot of people who own other packages know that. Maybe that's something that could be put into an ad campaign.

Agreed entirely. I think :newtek: is making leaps and bounds in marketing/software directon. But things like that should be accessible with 1 or 2 clicks from the front page (if not blatantly on the frontpage) with links to tutorials dealing specifically with Zbrush (and other software) integration, etc. I know about it and couldn't find this special on the Lightwave website other than in this forum. How are people supposed to take advantage of such deals if they aren't active in the forums?

tonybliss
08-13-2006, 12:11 PM
With all the talks about new features. I figure we need to step back and focus on the marketing side of things. How can NT improve the image and marketing of LW given its current technology. This thread is not about what LW should have, it is just about idea of how to position LW in this market place.

Here are some of my ideas.

1) release a demo reel of all the movies LW has been used in and place it on the website. No need to limit it to only a list. Show us.
2) Tackle the schools and show them that LW is a great program for people to learn 3D. After they learn the concept and theory behind 3D, they can tranfers that knowledge to any software program.
3) Contact FX house and work out a deal were they will mention LW in interviews.
4) Setup meeting with some VisualFX house and offer LW at a much reduce price. Offer them training for LW and integretion into their pipeline. Mention how cheap it is and how it will save them money and how the program will save them time.

I agree with no two TOTALLY. I may usually have students who prior to the course heard only about Maya ... period and wanted to get into 3d. After the first week they see the possibilities in LW and the skeptism goes. I am quite honest with my students however I let them know the pros and cons in the software i use(d) [Max, Maya, LW, now getting into XSI) and let them decide for themselves; they mostly stay with the workflow of LW.
Since most of the students are in media houses, etc they then move on to having LW purchased. Since my course started a year ago I know of three students who purshased full versions for personal and professional use; and I have two right inquiring about edu 9 seats.

Cheers!!

GinBlue
08-13-2006, 12:12 PM
Yea, demo, demo, demo. I now have to make a immanent decision about acquiring a 3D app to complete a project I'm working on, after a long absence from 3D work.

I have demo's or PLE's from just about every software company in the field, except Newtek. Maxon UK can't do enough to help me make a decision!

I seem strangely attracted to Lightwave and find Lightwave forums very lively, but have never used it and will not commit without playing with the app first.

Hate my first post being a rant.

Oh and replying to email would be good

jeremyhardin
08-13-2006, 12:22 PM
Yea, demo, demo, demo. I now have to make a immanent decision about acquiring a 3D app to complete a project I'm working on, after a long absence from 3D work.

I have demo's or PLE's from just about every software company in the field, except Newtek. Maxon UK can't do enough to help me make a decision!

I seem strangely attracted to Lightwave and find Lightwave forums very lively, but have never used it and will not commit without playing with the app first.

Hate my first post being a rant.

Oh and replying to email would be good
Not an excuse of course, but word 'on the street' is that :newtek: will be releasing a downloadable demo sometime soon. now, when 'sometime soon' is actually going to happen is unknown.

cresshead
08-13-2006, 12:34 PM
no demo...no new customers...simple as that!

of course there will be 'some' out there who would buy 'blind' but spending £500+ is quite a risk...most will searchout a cracked copy to try out...and then newtek will need their potential customer's 'guilt' to convert it into a sale...alternativly the customer might just go get a dowenloaded demo of
xsi, maya, max, cinema, modo or z brush....

get with it newtek you've had waaaaay too long not offering lw9 as a demo disc/download.

you can get a demo version of 7.5 by downloading here:-
windows
ftp://ftp.newtek.com/pub/Patches/LightWave_Windows/lw75d/LW75dPCUpdate.exe
mac
http://www.newtek.com/lightwave/downloads/lightwave75.php#osx

hrgiger
08-13-2006, 12:39 PM
Perhaps Newtek want's to incorporate the modeler OGL enhancements before they release the demo. After all, this is what most people will see first thing when they try out Lightwave.

cresshead
08-13-2006, 12:46 PM
in the meantime newtek can only 'offer' 7.5 in some sort of 'demo' form....whatabout offering lw8 in demo form inbetween the loooong wait,...

Weepul
08-13-2006, 02:26 PM
That I didn't know. I'm off to email... er... quite a few people...

*edit* Pogging Photoshop is companion upgrade material?!?!?!?!!!!
I didn't know that either, though I know some people who might like to know too! :eek:

SP00
08-13-2006, 02:34 PM
I think it is absolutely essential that NT incorporate a very nice, quick, and education training material on the DVD. You can download Maya, Max, and XSI, and the program that will be adopted is that one that user can understand the quickest. If NT incorporate a nice video in helping them get started on using LW very, very quickly, the user will immediate start to prefer it. Make sure to include stuff that can make the user say wow, like using dynamics.

Also 3D World magazine seems to be popular. I would try to incorporate a Educational Demo of LW9 with a roboust list of training materials on their included CD or DVD. Also time this with their review of LW9. Hopefully, the reviewer will give a favorable review, but that can be slightly massaged with how NT educates them on the ins and outs of LW9.

Some people think LW is for hobbist, but what better way to prove them wrong and stump out that perception then to provide a demo reel of all the big name movies that have used LW. It will take time, but I think it is absolutely worth it. They showed something similar during siggraph. Just put up the video on the website.

SP00
08-13-2006, 03:32 PM
I agree, there is no shame in copying :)

TomR
08-13-2006, 03:46 PM
Maybe make a short movie like Blenders “Elephants Dream”. They got a lot off attention in magazines and on internet because of it. Show what LW can do!

esper8
08-13-2006, 03:46 PM
Put a demo disk on a magazine coverdisk, update the web page regularly, atm it`s still got Jay Roth`s letter from February

That`s my 2 penneth

Bog
08-13-2006, 04:24 PM
Maybe make a short movie like Blenders “Elephants Dream”. They got a lot off attention in magazines and on internet because of it.

Mmm! Post-grad film by DAVE School Alumni, perhaps?

hrgiger
08-13-2006, 04:28 PM
Just a question about the competitive upgrade. How does one prove that they own a certain piece of software so that they can get Lightwave for $495?

Cageman
08-13-2006, 04:29 PM
Again this is not to promote Modo, but Newtek will have to provide a demo and training comparable to this if they want to look good.

And what better way to learn, than by example :D

:newtek: I know you can do it!

Another thing they could do until a Demo is out is to have a demo-page with a registration form so that when the demo is rolled out, the people who have expressed an interrest in a demo get a nice little e-mail notify when it happens. No more lurking around forums or refreshing the NT-site every other day in hope to see any news or sign of a Demo coming out.

SP00
08-13-2006, 04:56 PM
Another thing they could do until a Demo is out is to have a demo-page with a registration form so that when the demo is rolled out, the people who have expressed an interrest in a demo get a nice little e-mail notify when it happens. No more lurking around forums or refreshing the NT-site every other day in hope to see any news or sign of a Demo coming out.

I like this idea. :agree:

Wickster
08-13-2006, 05:15 PM
You know...giving away Lightwave T-Shirts would be good. SInce its a form of advertising done by the person who wears it. :D

Another i'd like to add would be to have a downloadable/torrent CD iso filled with turorials, resources and the demo version of LW. Similar to Digital Fusion's courswares but LW Demo version is there to begin with.

Verlon
08-13-2006, 06:51 PM
Downloadable Demo (and no 400 poly limit, either. That is like ancient history).

I think the demo delay may be a part of that "looking into protection solutions other than the dongle."

Also, more videos showing what lightwave can do on the site. Maybe even host demo reels for Lightwave artists (they could serve as a Demo of lightwave and help with employers/artists find each other).

More video based tutorials. I liked Project Viper from Kurv....something along those lines would be a great addition (i.e. here is how to make a really cool object, while demonstrating a variety of tools and modeling techniques along the way). Have some covering space ships, character work, logos, and compositing. Show tricks and tips, and maybe downloads of some of the nice free plugins, too.

riki
08-13-2006, 07:35 PM
Better overall branding, everything from packaging to web design. Hire a professional design studio for the job.

T-Light
08-13-2006, 07:40 PM
Verlon -

I think the demo delay may be a part of that "looking into protection solutions other than the dongle."
I really hope you're wrong there, it could take ages for Newtek to finalise that one. I hope it's down to the suggestion above that they're waiting for the OGL upgrade in modeler :thumbsup:

I also think the website frontpage needs a rethink once the new demo is out. LW could do with a 'LW 9, Download the Demo' Banner, 'LW9 - Buy Now' Banner, 'Speed Edit - Buy Now' Banner etc. They don't have to take over the page, they just need to be visible.

There's something else that needs a polish, I'm a firm believer in 'simple English'. If something's marketed as 'SAVE $300 on X if you own prod y, prod Z, Prod Etc' it will make a heck of a lot more impact on a lot more people than 'Companion Upgrade'. I saw Proton mention this offer in the 2006 Sig vids (and verify with someone that was indeed the correct phrase). In absolute truth, no one could honestly read the term 'companion upgrade' and instantly know what on Earth it meant.

I'd like to see Newtek grab the bull by the horns this year. No more Mr Nice Guy.
NEWTEK - Straight talkin', Straight Shootin'.

Want to see them get out the electric guitars and amps, turn them up to ten and rock this little blue planet to the core.

SP00
08-13-2006, 08:00 PM
I would also suggest that NT encourage its users to enter competition. They always ask what software was use to build the image. I open up 3D World and check out the gallery section none of them are from Lightwave. In the early life of the magazine, I would see a few lightwave entries, but now I don't see much of those. Same with any competition, all dominated by Maya and Max users. NT can offer a reward in addition to these type of competition rewards. That way LW users will get the official competition reward as well as a NT reward. Double incentives.

Karmacop
08-13-2006, 08:07 PM
I really hope you're wrong there, it could take ages for Newtek to finalise that one. I hope it's down to the suggestion above that they're waiting for the OGL upgrade in modeler :thumbsup:
Why are people even questioning this? Pull out your dongle and open up modeler or layout. It'll tell you no licence key was found and put you in discovery mode, but there's still a serial code down the bottom - something that wasn't in lw8 or before. Also, when you first install LW9 it gave you 30 days to register lightwave with a permanent key. So clearly the system is in place to give a 30 day demo, they could just be waiting for the up coming release, a system to hand out these temp keys, or putting together tutorials and example media.

Earl
08-13-2006, 08:23 PM
Just a question about the competitive upgrade. How does one prove that they own a certain piece of software so that they can get Lightwave for $495?
Well, I think all I had to do was give them my serial number for (gasp!) trueSpace. Mind you, this was 10 years ago when I bought LW so I don't really remember that well! The process was very easy though.

colkai
08-14-2006, 03:17 AM
no demo...no new customers...simple as that!

Alas, a short statement of fact there. Without a easily accessible and available download of a demo or CD request, people will not be tempted towards LW.

If I wanted a demo, it would have to be available from the front page of the website, very visibily on the front page too, not tucked in an obscure section.

A real "DOWNLOAD YOUR DEMO HERE OR CLICK HERE TO ORDER A CD TODAY"

Said CD should hten be shipped on the same day and the person informed via E-Mail. It's stuff like that which makes folks think, "Hmm, great response, I LIKE this company already".

Yeah, it's a hassle, but provide an area where people accesing the demo can ask questions too, have an FAQ and a couple of simple tutorials on disk / download as well. Give them every opportunity to get to grips with LW.

Sure, the community here rocks hard, but a new users should be able to feel they can "get into" the program on their won if they don't have full-time internet access.

Wonderpup
08-14-2006, 03:39 AM
Better overall branding, everything from packaging to web design. Hire a professional design studio for the job.


I think the branding for 9 is the best Newtek have ever done, it's strong, edgey and professional. In terms of promotion I felt the 'advertorials' in 3D world magazine were really effective in promoting Lightwave as a serious tool used by working professionals. It would be great to see more of these, maybe focusing on the more 'glamour' end of the spectrum like tv and movie work.

Bog
08-14-2006, 03:55 AM
There's a definate need to pimp the glamour end. It's great that LW is so useful for quick, low-end jobs like titling and logo work and the like, but with people like Rhythm and Hues showing stuff from Superman, Narnia and Serenity and Digital Domain showing stuff from Stealth and other gigs, it really would make so much sense to push that side of things much, much harder. I've just read something from Origami Digital on using LightWave in "The Aviator", and they guy writing just can't sing LightWave's praises highly enough - when a bloke like Rob Legato is happy with the results, then something like that needs to be shouted about.

At SIG, the Softimage and Autodesk booths were showing uber-high-end stuff. They were screaming about their film projects, Softimage had a Final-Fantasy grade (at least!) animation of Spidey, Captain America, Thor and Wolverine that I'm pretty sure they funded themselves - they were pushing the spectacle. They really didn't spend much time on workflow.

When they did talk workflow, they used carefully prepared scenes, so for one demo they'd show a *bit* of workflow, just to wiggle some mouse, then go onto the next scene in the demo. They wouldn't try to produce a whole shot, or show a whole effect, they bullet-pointed key stages in the workflow. Which, of course, means they got to gloss over any sticky or nasty bits in same. Astute, hey?

But they were all about the sexy end results, whereas NewTek's demos - while great for actual artist and animators - aren't the sort of thing which make studio heads (that is, the guys which chequebooks) say "Give me that nowww!"

SP00
08-14-2006, 05:53 AM
At SIG, the Softimage and Autodesk booths were showing uber-high-end stuff. They were screaming about their film projects, Softimage had a Final-Fantasy grade (at least!) animation of Spidey, Captain America, Thor and Wolverine that I'm pretty sure they funded themselves - they were pushing the spectacle. They really didn't spend much time on workflow.


Yeah, that was actually for a game that EA was making, but I agree with the idea tha NT should Push the High-end stuff too. Everyone is saying how LW is so much faster overall than the competition, I think they need to push this similarly with Speededit. Everyone wants faster, easier, and better value.

Kuzey
08-14-2006, 07:05 AM
Well, I think all I had to do was give them my serial number for (gasp!) trueSpace. Mind you, this was 10 years ago when I bought LW so I don't really remember that well! The process was very easy though.

Yes....a serial number and or a photocopy of the install disc...something like that.


Have a plugin page within the LW pages, frontpage, link, it doesn't matter..just make it big/clear. That goes same for the demo :D

While you're at it, have a page on how LW can add to your existing pipeline/workflow set up....videos, tutorials working with Maya etc. etc.

Send Proton to non-Lw studios and have him show them first hand how good is LW....don't forget to take demos dics and t-shirts etc. :D

A large super cool LW calendar, also a customer version, so people can have their work up in lights...er the office wall. They promote themselves and LW at the same time, include dvd demos of the scenes/artists and LW demo :D


Just a few,

Kuzey

GandB
08-14-2006, 07:15 AM
I'm telling you, you've got to push the Game Development more. The game industry has surpassed the movie industry in profit; it's a huge contender. I don't see much talk about game development in these forums at all.

-Keith

Bog
08-14-2006, 07:22 AM
I don't see much talk about game development in these forums at all.

Shadow of the Colossus: Good example.

GandB
08-14-2006, 07:29 AM
Ah, I didn't know they used LightWave for that one.

Kuzey
08-14-2006, 07:32 AM
I'm telling you, you've got to push the Game Development more. The game industry has surpassed the movie industry in profit; it's a huge contender. I don't see much talk about game development in these forums at all.

-Keith

And don't forget about those small to medium Audio/film/dvd production houses that make tv ads etc., most don't use 3d, but thats starting to pick it up because clients are wanting it more and more.

But yes..more of everything would be great :D

Kuzey

Bog
08-14-2006, 07:34 AM
I think it was also used for Black (by Criterion. Good fun - as long as you play it like Operation Wolf meets Takeshi's Castle rather than like CounterStrike)

Bog
08-14-2006, 07:36 AM
And don't forget about those small to medium Audio/film/dvd production houses that make tv ads etc., most don't use 3d, but thats starting to pick it up because clients are wanting it more and more.

Well, that's where I make my bread 'n' butter, have done for years. But truth be told, if you've got 5 or 6 working days to do *everything* in, then it's not going to be *that* impressive - take a squiz at my gallery if ya like, and tell me for true that you can't *tell* that it's all short-duration stuff. I guess this is why I'd love to see NT pushing the high end more: Yeah, you can bash stuff out really quickly, and it'll look OK - but if you've actually got some time to spend, it looks *great*

Kuzey
08-14-2006, 07:48 AM
Well, that's where I make my bread 'n' butter, have done for years. But truth be told, if you've got 5 or 6 working days to do *everything* in, then it's not going to be *that* impressive - take a squiz at my gallery if ya like, and tell me for true that you can't *tell* that it's all short-duration stuff. I guess this is why I'd love to see NT pushing the high end more: Yeah, you can bash stuff out really quickly, and it'll look OK - but if you've actually got some time to spend, it looks *great*

Very true!!

Btw...the images on your site look great to me for the time spent on them. :D

I did an ad before coming to this side of the world. I would have liked one day extra to get the animation right but the client liked it as is and that was the end of that...funny people clients :jester:

Kuzey

SP00
08-14-2006, 08:07 AM
I do agree that the game industry is very BIG and can be much more profitable. I remember when Unreal editor was package with a copy of lightwave so that people can build model and bring them into the Unreal engine. Unreal 2004 now uses Maya, but I think LW would be a better fit for this crowd. Newtek should probably push to include LW with game or level editors, especially with LWCAD. When these game designer moves into game studios, they will have influence in what software these studio will carry. Many smaller game studios are also looking for ways to compete with the big companies. LW better value can help them cut their cost and compete.

Phil
08-14-2006, 08:15 AM
NewTek currently has a Companion upgrade. You can get LW for $495 if you own another 3d app. You dont have to turn in your dongle....Use LW along side your other 3d apps.

blender? :D

T-Light
08-14-2006, 08:37 AM
Karmacop -

Why are people even questioning this?
I wasn't, as you say the code's already in place for the demo. I thought you were talking about waiting for LW to be released without a dongle before they released the demo ?. That's a big deal, not in programing terms, but decision making terms, I think it'll be at least LW 10 before we see that change, if at all.

beverins
08-14-2006, 09:02 AM
First, what you did RIGHT
- You got the demos running in the Guerilla Studio. Praise be to Deuce. A man among men. :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :D

Now, what you really need to work on.

1) demo disc.

2) demo download.

3) Advertise in at least ONE trade journal every month. If advertising in graphics magazines, you can mention your video products, but always mention Lightwave. If you have to have a speededit ad in CGW, then either buy another page for LW, or split the page into two or mention LW somehow in the ad. I have not seen any ads from Avid in CGW lately that mention the CGI products that Avid actually makes - i.e. Xpress DV. Liquid, and Media Composer. I Do see them advertising Softimage, though. In video magazines, have fun with your tracaster, VT and speededit ads, and you really should make an ad in those magazines for 3DArsenal!!! Why is there no ad for that product?

4) Trade Shows. After seeing your mediocre performance at Siggraph, you guys really need to take a long look at how you present your products to certain individuals. I have mentioned it before at length, but I will reiterate it here: You didn't have any demo discs. You didn't have any LW 9 brochures. You didn't have any 3DArsenal Brochures. You tried to sell an editing package to people who mostly don't give a rat's patookus about editing (no, really, they don't, I'm not kidding. Did you look around at your audience when you showed the Speededit demos? Did you even HAVE much of an audience? Did you notice how half of the seated people LEFT when you started showing Speededit? I really hope you took note of that - it wasn't an anomaly)... and even that I'm willing to forgive if you had at least mentioned "speededit / 3Darsenal" on your booth. All I saw was a huge Lightwave 9. Oh, but you had the brochures, OK. Still, when I sit down at a booth that has a huge "lightwave 9" all over it, I kinda expect to sit down and watch a demo that is showing me Lightwave 9. Maybe its my bad timing, but every time I sat down you guys stopped the Lightwave 9 demo and started up a SpeedEdit demo that went on for a good 20 minutes. :thumbsdow

5) Tailor your marketing to the venue. Related to above. Don't tell people how "scary" Lightwave is in a place where they're demoing Massive 2.6, or where they're demoing a Nvidia QuadroPlex array for realtime data visualization of weather dynamics. You may be asking "what do I mean by this" - well, when you were demoing 3DArsenal your presenter Don kept harping on how 3DArsenal was usable even by people who didn't know 3D at all, who would be scared by Lightwave. The correct way to sell 3DArsenal would be to market it as a set of timesaving plugins to make money with. Did you go down to Maxon's booth and watch how they demoed Mograph? That's how it SHOULD be done. They managed to get it right. Your product is as good as Mograph, but you presented it as a tool for "video editors who were scared of 3D". Do you understand WHY I'm not satisfied? Siggraph is a place where you have a bunch of 3D Artists who may (or may not) be scared of video editing... but they sure as heck aren't scared of 3D.

6) market towards schools more aggressively. I just bought 20 licenses for Long Island University. Maybe this is a drop in the bucket compared to Dave School, I dunno. The thing is that LIU just got an enourmous donation of 40 licenses from Autodesk for Maya 8 Unlimted and Motionbuilder. Yes, they're playing dirty, real dirty. I'm going to have to fight hard to keep Lightwave to be even taught now. I'm figuring a good angle to do this would be that in real studios LW is used for modeling, Maya/Motionbuilder is used for Characters and LW is once again used for rendering. I know the CGI faculty head Marjan Moghaddam is all for Lightwave, but you never know. I'm not suggesting that Newtek donate copies of LW... however, Marjan has asked you guys to come down to LIU to demo your products... though perhaps she didn't follow up, I dunno. I'm not a marketing major, so I dunno what you could do to offset this; I'm running out of ideas.

9) your manual. I'm not expecting glossy 20lb color printing. But the manual seems to have been printed from the low-res PDFs, and you used the same paper found in pulp paperback books. I do like how the paper seems to be printed in recycled stock, though. I dunno. I guess I was hoping not to see JPEG artifacting around the picture elements in the manual, you know what I'm saying? Though this isn't really marketing, since the person at this point has already purchased the software.

Karmacop
08-14-2006, 09:14 AM
Karmacop -

I wasn't, as you say the code's already in place for the demo. I thought you were talking about waiting for LW to be released without a dongle before they released the demo ?
Ohh ok, no, miscommunication :)

SP00
08-14-2006, 11:31 AM
The thing is that LIU just got an enourmous donation of 40 licenses from Autodesk for Maya 8 Unlimted and Motionbuilder. Yes, they're playing dirty, real dirty. I'm going to have to fight hard to keep Lightwave to be even taught now.

I think this is a very big deal. I know for a fact that Autodesk are willing to give away free licenses to schools. My school got copies of Max for free. And that is why all Universities are willing to teach those products. They are use in the industry and they are getting them for free. NT needs to jump on this and offer free copies of LW for use in classes. They can easily make up for the lost sales by gaining a bunch of sales on the Educational License to each student. When they get into the industry there is potential for them to get the commercial license. If NT didn't do this, than these sales would have gone to Maya or Max.

The only problem I see is the use of the Dongle. Maybe they can have one dongle activate multiple copies on a network.

Earl
08-14-2006, 01:29 PM
The only problem I see is the use of the Dongle. Maybe they can have one dongle activate multiple copies on a network.
Already in the works. From the LW 9.x FAQ:

Will a network dongle be available for LightWave v9?
Yes. We are pleased to announce that, as a part of the LightWave v9 life cycle, we will begin to offer a network dongle for LightWave 3D. This is being done in response to requests from customers making use of large numbers of licenses on a set group of machines, such as schools and large studios. The NewTek Sales department will have more information about this new development as it is made available.

Lamont
08-14-2006, 04:32 PM
Whatever they do needs to be on the front and easy to navigate. It's h3ll getting to the registration page...

Matt
08-14-2006, 05:11 PM
First, what you did RIGHT
- You got the demos running in the Guerilla Studio. Praise be to Deuce. A man among men. :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :D

Now, what you really need to work on.

1) demo disc.

2) demo download.

<snip>



I have to say, as much as it pains me to say, I totally agree with beverins.

I really, really, really, really want to see NT do really well and blow everyone away with their products. But I do feel embarrassed sometimes when I see the presentation of their products / image.

I just think NT really need to raise their game in all respects, it's almost as if you don't believe in yourselves, or you feel okay with taking second place. I'm sure this isn't true, but if this is how _I_ feel - a NewTek supporter, how do others who aren't so sympathetic see you.

Take a few pages out of Apple's book, I realise NT doesn't have the same resources, but as a standard to work to, I think they're second to none.

I really don't want to sound downbeat on NT, you're a small company who are still doing okay in a very difficult market, but I _know_ you can do better than this.

Sincerely (really)
Matt

Bog
08-14-2006, 05:26 PM
Mmm. I don't mean any of my comments to be negative, and certainly no disparagement of the demo artists at SIG, who frankly worked their guts out. Hearing Andy Bishop not only croaking at the end of a day, but also unable to have a drink... well, it broke my tiny, cynical, blackened heart.

I'm pretty sure a demo must be coming - there's gotta be a reason for the 30-day new registration period.

SP00
08-14-2006, 07:49 PM
Well, I got to say that I downloaded the video of the presentation recorded at siggraph. It was posted somewhere on the NT site. I have to say that I enjoyed all their demo, especially from people outside of NT. The problem is that I didn't see a schedule at the booth, so I didn't know when to come back for the presentation that I wanted to see when I was there. I would have also liked it if they made the demo more like a getting started training session and then hand out LW9 demo. That would have drove a lot of people there.

I guess the common idea right now is for NT Marketing to get the DEMO/Training disc out ASAP.

T-Light
08-14-2006, 07:53 PM
Well I think they did say the demo was coming 'soon' a little while before the 9 launch. I just thought that meant after Sig.

Give it a month and we'll have another moan.

Kuzey
08-15-2006, 03:51 AM
I'm sure the release of the demo is waiting for the up coming update.

Very good ideas...It would be cool to bundle all the demos of any Games that used LW...along with the Lw demo disc.

Just make sure you don't need to install each game, just insert the cd/dvd and click and play.

:thumbsup:

Kuzey

T-Light
08-15-2006, 10:55 AM
Holy Guacamoley,

Am I the first to see the new front page?
:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
:thumbsup: :thumbsup:
:thumbsup:

jeremyhardin
08-15-2006, 10:59 AM
it looks the same to me as it's looked for a few weeks. am i missing something?

cresshead
08-15-2006, 11:04 AM
could be the universal binary version of lw9..or the new camera lens database:D

the camera lenes are neato btw!
:cat:

T-Light
08-15-2006, 11:26 AM
jeremy hardin -

it looks the same to me as it's looked for a few weeks. am i missing something?
I hope so, coz if my machines been caching an old page for several months it's going to make pretty much everything I've said on this thread moot.

Page I'm getting today... Anybody?

jeremyhardin
08-15-2006, 11:29 AM
jeremy hardin -

I hope so, coz if my machines been caching an old page for several months it's going to make pretty much everything I've said on this thread moot.

Page I'm getting today... Anybody?

ah. that's new to me too. I thought you were talking about the Lightwave page (http://www.newtek.com/lightwave or http://www.lightwave3d.com)

Chuck
08-15-2006, 11:37 AM
Gee, that's different than what I saw. ;)

tyrot
08-15-2006, 11:48 AM
I have to say, as much as it pains me to say, I totally agree with beverins.

I really, really, really, really want to see NT do really well and blow everyone away with their products. But I do feel embarrassed sometimes when I see the presentation of their products / image.

Matt

dear matt

as a Lightwave fanboy, since siggraph 2006 i cant hold my changing feelings anymore. Although i defend lightwave like defending crown in different battlefields (forums) i really cant hold it anymore.

Something is wrong with Lightwave Marketing. I started get bored seeing same guy telling same things over and over again. Look at the Siggraph 2006 videos, it is simply copy of the last year. Andy is trying to give more enthusiastic approach to the subject and somehow he is so much more focused and concentrated on Lightwave then Lightwave's own fellas. how can it be possible well i dont know. Probably i Got bored seeing Some Faces as an Ultimatte users of Lightwave. That s me. I m heretic.

For so long i was reading Thomas' posts, some others posts whom i called Darkwavers. But i realized something. Actually Really something is wrong. Because USERS are the Wavers. If you CANT find good users or keep talented ones, NONE of MARKETING tools will work. We imitate the masters. Well How many masters Left in LW? Except Protected kiddies how many hard core Lightwave user here still inspiring you?

What i see from LW marketing department singing LALALA songs and posing and showing their pathetic quality works as example of LW. drinking beer, having fun, loving eachother's amazing performance..

Not only the Lightwave's SDK is old but also marketing SDK is totally Old. So what i see MARKETING SDK is really really need upgrade. I recommend them to read Harry Beckwith Books immediately. I recommend jim plant to review the guys at NewTek marketing department. This ship and its crew heading to the rocks. No matter what Jay or new team makes with these faces it is not gonna happen. because Lost of focus is the greatest enemy. What is the focus we dont know. Noone in this forum knows what s the focus of Lightwave's new path. wrestling with maya ? Ok if a virus spreads in net and effects only Maya and wipe it from the face of the planet May be. Cuz XSI can fill this area. Games..? You gotta be kidding with these strategies...Where is Shadow of Clossus link in GAME page?

Look at the Game Page for Christ sake..Stop lying to ourselves. Doom3 is old. The guy is using MODO now. James Edwars using MODO now. Serious Sam2 ? Yes..But where is SHADOW of COLOSSUS. I mean How come you can miss that? Why dont you send a guy or ask Tessalator to make an interview with the guys? Why this Laziness happens Here for years? We dont even realized How OK IKBooster till a Guy devote his time to its programmer's work.. How many more you want to read. OLD OLD OLD. If a fanboy is telling you Games section is OLD then it is old.

I just wanted to turn back to days of John gross' or all early users. I was watching Lightwave in my TV. And i looked at it and i got it. 10 years ago. It was like this. So tell it then we will go for TV production facilities. I mean at least some users will understand that you will never have time for Character animation...Oh My lord it is like a closed circle and we trapped in here.

Brad peebler is hiring a top guy for marketing Modo. Making so much better job from all Lightwave marketing team as a President. I really started to have fear they will alter many minds.

Lightwave Marketing doesnt need holy figures although how much they work..They are working for themselves yes indirectly for Lightwave. it really does need great users, great demos, great users like Andy who is really knowing how to make money with Lightwave. A fast not money consuming but daring marketing strategies. Otherwise those faces will cover the great achivements of Lightwave's new team.

There was a thread in Spinquad a guy was asking How many Lightwave studios i can apply in London? The results were pathetic. Only few left.

Depressing..Well may be for me Yes, but not for beer promoting team they are happy as they were.. So something is really really wrong. Lighwave should find its ground...

What am i doing? Well in my small facility getting more CPUs for my render farm and trying to make a 1 million dollar profit with one single Lightwave License. If i can make that money in 1.5-2 years (my goal is to make that money in one year) i will write a book and show that happened because of Lightwave. It may attract some users may be...

BEST

T-Light
08-15-2006, 11:58 AM
Chuck -

Gee, that's different than what I saw. ;)
:D

SP00
08-15-2006, 12:40 PM
Hey tyrot,

LW is a great product, it just need a little more push in the eyes of the consumers. I do agree that NT needs a very aggressive marketing strategy for the entire 9.x cycle.

BTW Chuck, I love the front page. Much better design.

Chuck
08-15-2006, 12:48 PM
Tyrot, why are you unwilling to suggest changes without assuming and declaring that character is at fault? If you think things need to be done differently, feel free to describe how and why, but if you think laziness or complacency has anything whatsoever to do with the quality of our efforts, please rest assured there is no such thing around here. And our rules, which you agreed to abide by when you signed on to the forum, forbid personal attacks. Please honor your word, and if you have any problem with anyone's character take it up with them directly and privately, and not on this forum in public.

I'm guessing that you can pretty well understand the issue of people and resources when it applies to your own business. Do you want people to assume that things you have not gotten around to due to resource and staffing issues are instead due to flaws in your character or a lack of desire on your part? Will such people publicly announcing this opinion help you overcome those issues of resources and staffing, or will it only create a wrong impression of you for those who do not know your situation and may hear and believe these assertions? A wrong impression that will subsequently require resources better applied elsewhere just to overcome?

As for the 3D marketing group, changes are planned, particularly expansion both by adding more new marketing people (a number of staff have moved on to other duties and not been replaced yet, a primary reason that refresh on the web content has slowed somewhat) and by adding skilled artists to the content production and evangelism crew. Already ramping up is greater use of ad and design agencies within the 3D marketing program.

SP00
08-15-2006, 01:03 PM
Hey Chuck,

Thanks for the update, if you need any help, i'm sure many of us will love to help in any way possible, even on very small things.

tyrot
08-15-2006, 01:30 PM
dear Chuck

i have read your PM after my message is written. I hate whiners, I hate "i do it better guys" i really hate party poses too (i rather work 20 hours). So i CANT do it better myself, but i dont wanna be sound like i am OK with everything. Dont see me as a One license guy BTW i will expand my facility. BEcause i have deepest faith for Lightwave. So everyone should really work so much more harder than earlier days. This cycle is for so many users so much more important. But as i said i m not gonna whine i will write what i think it will cost me my fanboyism but it is ok.

1- Game section is terrible. Seneca Menard is using Modo Now. New ID games will be directly Modo-maya way. So what we promote here is past. Promoting past can only serve to our day dreams. So should we cry Seneca is not using LW no but we should even find better Games. The Game of the Year Shadow Of Colossus almost made in Lightwave. Show that in front page. Look how big Seneca Menard's name in Modo's page. How Small Doom3 is in LW's game section. They sell names. Everyone sells names. They even sell Rick Baker. Giving the idea that everyone in LA will be using Modo because they are so good. You Have to find more names. Names in Japan, Names in Mars ...YOu gotta find them show them, translate their interviews. You shouldnt even sleep at this stage I know i wouldnt.

2- Demo is needed. Utterly needed. This month needed.

3- LW is the Greatest thing for Architectural Visualization. But i read in 3dworld mag only 4 percent of arch viz companies is using LW. Why? Autodesk autocad-Max unity. Well Forget it. They are wrong. I will get half of this money from arch viz. I have seen great videos from CityScape. Two fellas are really making great things overthere. You have to send a camera to Colkai or Andy and make an interview with that two talented guys. You have to Show people that THEY SHOULD USE LW especially after LWCAD2 (which thanks to SAfe harbor and NEWTEK EUROPE i cant still get it..). Because most profitable job in 3d is coming from arch. Because everyone hates MAX and using it just for VRAY and LW is not filling that place i m getting even more frustrated. Support KRAY or tell us we are gonna do crazy things with renderer you will not need anything anymore. And we will wait patiently.

3- Whereever i go i see same faces as great Lwevers. Forums, interviews they are everywhere for years. my humble idea, just give them a bit rest, think they are gone...what do you have ? Who is gonna promote Lightwave? It is like stone like communist system, only few people taking stage and talking about lightwave , interviewing, reviewing, writing in forums..Ok that is good for a fan base but because they are not uber artists noone is getting interested from outside..

4- We talked about oddi's work. I dont change my idea on that. You should think twice for giving the authority for banning a guy who can attract crazy amount of people in almost LW banned place like CGTALK. 10.0000 view in 2 days. It will be one the greatest work made in 3d history but we kicked the artist's ***. Even my homecountry MAX people sending me PMs after seeing that work " WAS it LW?" " HOW did you guys do that LW" " Is there a DEMO" "I cant believe LW can make that render without Radiosity" "We should try Lightwave"

What you all miss in that little thread the enthusiasm which is coming from a ONE FRAME render and one camera angle movie...I m not exaggrating it. It is More important than all your parties. Simple is that. None of evangelists you have under your wings have that talent. None of their videos will attract that much people. It is a SHOW game Chuck. You know this better than me. Names, works are the game.
No i m not discussing moderation (i discussed it elsewhere) But i m discussing marketing point of view which caused me my precious fanboyism... I feel like i got the blue pill (or was it red..)...

BEST

T-Light
08-15-2006, 03:51 PM
Spoo -

Thanks for the update, if you need any help, i'm sure many of us will love to help in any way possible, even on very small things.
You're not wrong :thumbsup:

T-Light
08-15-2006, 03:57 PM
Hey Tyrot, really thought you might have quit the forums the other day, nice to see you back with passion :)

Red_Oddity
08-15-2006, 05:03 PM
Tyrot, dont' forget that, in order to post work done with LW, Newtek would need permissions from the author or owner of the copyrighted work.
And copyrights and publishing other peoples work (often owned by larger publishers/companies) can become a very very difficult corporate political string pulling in order to get something done or authorised.
It might not be for most companies, and offcourse most artists that worked on those titles would love to get their work shown on high profile sites, but when we're discussing material and titles owned by publishers the likes of Sony, Atari or Electronic Arts, it might become somewhat difficult and the actual artist that worked on the material in question doesn't always have the last say.

So, it might not all be Newteks fault here.

Bog
08-15-2006, 05:19 PM
*raises hand*

Yo, Chuck. Anything I can bring to the party, you've got. I keep singing about how much I love LW, so any of the work I do that helps raise profile, make it look good, any demo content I can provide, or if you need a demo artist in the UK (until I get a job in the US), then include me in.

Tyrot: Your passion is a wonderful thing. Stay positive, chap.

T-Light
08-15-2006, 06:56 PM
Bog -

Yo, Chuck. Anything I can bring to the party, you've got. I keep singing about how much I love LW
Took a look at your site yesterday, I've seen you mention the British Library before but wasn't sure of the scope. BOG, WOW, and I mean WOW, that must have been such a buzz, Such an innovative project and well, REALLY TERRIFIC WORK FELLA, I'd loved to have been in that boat. :)

Are you allowed to contribute in that capacity or, as Red_Oddity says, are there 'release' rules from the British Library?

Bog
08-16-2006, 02:05 AM
I doubt I'd be allowed to share the photographs of the page textures themselves, as those are BL property. I'm sure I could think o'something, though. :)

But yeah, it's a proper rush doing the book stuff. Given that about 98% of my work is fairly low-level advertising stuff (I actually once did an animation to show the proper way to chew gum, for pity's sake) it's always lovely to get something I can actually flex a brain-muscle at! And thanks, Brent!

riki
08-16-2006, 02:11 AM
It would also be good to see Newtek participate in sponsoring high profile events like CG Challenge.

faulknermano
08-16-2006, 03:18 AM
NewTek currently has a Companion upgrade. You can get LW for $495 if you own another 3d app. You dont have to turn in your dongle....Use LW along side your other 3d apps.

you know what: i totally knew that before, but i somehow missed that when thinking about upgrades. btw, does this apply for LW9 too?

Gui Lo
08-16-2006, 05:02 AM
It's not really Apple that NT needs to look to it is Nintendo.

Most people think they lost the console wars for the last gen and the next gen until they showed they made a profit. Everyone thought that the PSP would floor the DS but it hasn't happened.

Nintendo's next gen machine was ridiculed when people first heard until they learnt more or used it and worked out how much money Sony and Microsoft plan to lose while Nintendo still make a profit.

NT have sold the same product for about 10 yrs while the others have stopped and started. We may not see LW being used by all the heavyweights but it is still selling and being used for some of the best peices of work.

Pavlov
08-16-2006, 05:36 AM
To add 2 cents, here's my concrete suggestion... i' wont repeat how large and important is Viz arena, but that's really the place where NT can make a 3x userbase in a few time, if they invest some efforts on it. So why not this or something alike:

1- First, integrate W-tools for Osnap and DXF I/O, and pay him to develop a DWG I/O in a short time.

2- Make a wider "companion" deal: give LW+Fprime to all Autocad/Autocad LT/Cinema/Max users for - say - $ 600 and show them it's a very good alternative, or something they could really use along with their tools.
Every arch. firm has some Autocad licenses, and in my 60.000 people town there are something like 20-25 arch. firms. Just make some counts.

3- Have local resellers contact them directly and offer package, training and demo stuff. This movie: http://video.google.it/videoplay?doc...68041179160437 was done in less than 10 workdays, LW+fprime. Not the best archviz movie around, but enough to get a large number of heads turned toward LW+Fprime here in Italy (mostly for quality/time issue, it's a 3-5 min/frame movie), where most people wouldnt argue LW could do similar things but just push spaceships around.
So: take some awesome Viz artist like Otacon, Gerardo and many others and ask them for some stuff to showcase along with the deal.

4- As someone said before, be more present in Viz contests, sites, forums and so on.

5- Sell tons of licenses.

Paolo

SCS5
08-16-2006, 05:50 AM
Newtek, priority one( excluding LW9 development) should be to completely re-think your trade show marketing. I've said this before, & I'll say it again. Right now at NAB & SIGGRAPH you're demoing for current users, not to potential new clients. The demo's are sloppy, unprepared, sometimes vulgar, it just comes off looking halfassed! And for any new corporate engineer, exec, or artist who've just seen a demo of Fusion, Max, XSI, Modo, Etc. it just looks like you guys don't give a s***. I've seen people at these trade shows sit down at your booth, and after a few minutes of, OK, OK, I know it's here somewhere, um,uh, OK, yea, here it is!! Or Those other companies hardware S**** and we kick F****** A**.... The Execs & many others just stand up and walk away shaking their heads!! I'VE SEEN THIS SEVERAL TIMES OVER THE YEARS!! Come on guys.. Right now your trade show presence is geared to selling to high school kids. You talk down to the people sitting at the booth like their idiots. Guess what, their not. Go out on the trade show floor, look at the competition, see what their doing, TAKE NOTES! and bring your trade show presence up to the same caliber as your rivals..........It's not cool to look like you're having fun half assing your way through a trade show....It just looks half assed.:thumbsdow If I didn't already use your software and hardware (10+ years) and know what great POTENTIAL it has, If I'd based my decision on what I see on the trade show floor, I'd have looked elseware. Glad I didn't.......Sorta:devil:

Kuzey
08-16-2006, 05:59 AM
I would so love to work for Newtek...but I'm just tooooo crazy, mad or just bad when it comes to LW :screwy: :screwy:

Things pop in my head and I just have to make them and here is two examples from last year...pre LW9.

The good thing is, I have a cousin here in Turkey that has his own plastic and rubber company. He makes all kinds of things for Tuborg and other companies in and round Europe, keyrings, cups, rubber coated metal bits etc. So things like those in the picture can happen and I'm sure he'll jump at the chance.

The possibilities are endless.

Anyway, back to being normal...for now.

:help:

Kuzey

SCS5
08-16-2006, 06:05 AM
KUZEY,
GREAT IDEA!:thumbsup:

colkai
08-16-2006, 06:37 AM
Agreed, there is no reason this sort of "minor marketing" can't be done, as someone who produces keyrings / fridge magnets / coasters for a charity, this stuff is relatively cheap to churn out and get the charity 'out there'. Bear in mind, I'm not a company, i'm just a guy doing it at home, if it's cost effective for me at 100 keyrings a time, it's gotta be cost effective when you're talking about the scale of 1,000 keyrings and more. What's more, we only charge £1.00 and make a good 45% 'profit' on that, if not more.

Also, regarding magazine adverts / presence, you can't get through 2 or 3 pages of 3DWorld magazine here in the UK without some article or another pushing Max/Maya or 3 or 4 full page adverts from autodesk and Autodesk sponsored companies. Anything Max/Maya related gets huge coverage.
By contrast, the 'release' of LW9 was a small sidebox, tucked away mid-magazine and was, at best, less than flattering.

Now, far be it for me to suggest that maybe all those advertising dollars are affecting how 3DWorld like to have folks percieve any autodesk product, but truth is, be it dirty tactics or no, it works. Whether the editors say otherwise, there's no doubt, they don't want to upset the big spenders, so the words wheels and grease spring to mind.

When the ill fated LW6.0 was released "The joy of Six" campaign polarised folks good and proper due to Tarons image, but one thing for sure, it got noticed and it got people talking about LW. The same alas cannot be said at the moment.

Phil
08-16-2006, 06:54 AM
I must admit that the trade show performances have always left me cold. I cringe when logos are shown - it is a given that any package out there can deliver logo work so why bother showing it?

I'll see the ease of use aspect quickly enough from more advanced demos because I'm not an idiot and nor are most of your user base. If they paid to go to SIGGRAPH, it's likely that simple logo animation is not their core focus; it's certainly not going to be a 'killer use' of a new application.

In fact, having watched the available videos over the past couple of years, I'd go so far as to say that I wouldn't go to the NewTek booth at SIGGRAPH because I'd only expect simple presentations and discussions, with the feel of disorganisation thrown in for free. I've never experience a jaw-on-the-floor moment for any of the presentations; that's rather sad when I think about it.

Whilst Andy did a good job, watching him traverse the directory structure trying to locate his content was....not ideal. I didn't watch the rest of them, I admit - Andy's was recommended so I took a look.

What I really, really want to see is a professional demonstration of the really unique and powerful bits of the system. Show me what makes LW usable in really complex scenes (workflow!); show me why I want to render with LW (free nodes, might be tricky and Screamernet needs work; surfacing with nodal); show me why I want to animate with LW (IKBoost still seems neglected; motionmixer similarly; Relativity is a real powerhouse - show it off). None of the existing features have been centre of stage in previous shows....it's all been pitched at a much lower level. All features aren't pushed anything like hard enough to convince that they would work in a demanding situation.

The longer I think about this, the more I would be inclined to suggest that this might be perceived as a lack of confidence from NT in their product. As though it might turn into a Bill Gates + Windows 98, or Vista voice recognition demo, type disaster. If you don't want to push your product *hard* in front of a room full of (potential) clients, why should I trust it with my future?

Even the APS demo was somewhat lacking - the 'sexy' marketing factor was entirely missing from a deformed plane. I'm also not sure why Andy failed to directly mention the package that apparently doesn't display deformation in its OpenGL implementation. Without attribution, that claim is meaningless and is a cheap shot. I would have loved to have seen an enormous scene fully utilising APS for level of detail handling. With Layout's improved OpenGL, having a really, really dense scene would be good to demonstrate that LW is finally being progressed by a competent and committed development team.

Show me also why LW's Modeler is so highly rated - not just simple stuff, but something that is equivalent to the vehicle modelling tutorials from Kurv (or pretty much anything else remotely challenging). I really don't particularly care about SpeedBoolean - that isn't going to convince me to drop cash on a product that might be new to me. Showing me workflow advantages and so on is much more compelling. Again, logo work is taken for granted. If you can model a vehicle, I'm pretty **** sure I can pull a logo out of the app.

Show me why LW64 is compelling. XSI was pushing their gigapolygon implementation some time ago and that was something that made me genuinely excited. Give me some of that for LW. Please. A linux version wouldn't hurt whilst you are at it.

Kuzey
08-16-2006, 07:34 AM
Thanks SCS5,

That's just the tip of the iceberg :D


Agreed, there is no reason this sort of "minor marketing" can't be done, as someone who produces keyrings / fridge magnets / coasters for a charity, this stuff is relatively cheap to churn out and get the charity 'out there'. Bear in mind, I'm not a company, i'm just a guy doing it at home, if it's cost effective for me at 100 keyrings a time, it's gotta be cost effective when you're talking about the scale of 1,000 keyrings and more. What's more, we only charge £1.00 and make a good 45% 'profit' on that, if not more.


Colkai,

How do you do it at home, do you use plastic/rubber in liquid form or was it resin and have it set solid in silicon moulds?

I saw a tv show on how a person made plastic earrings but didn't catch the whole segement..but was left with the above impression.

Kuzey

colkai
08-16-2006, 08:26 AM
Colkai,
How do you do it at home, do you use plastic/rubber in liquid form or was it resin and have it set solid in silicon moulds?

Nothing that fancy, simple blank insert keyrings for me, I buy the blanks, print out the inserts from photos I take of the birds / animals. Do all the cutting etc and assembly myself. www.plastics-direct.co.uk is the place I get my blanks from and they are cheap enough, even at low volumes, to make it viable.

The only time I buy pre-formed & precut inserts is for the coasters with them being circular. Nothing as fancy as the flexi-silicone ones, but I'll tell you this, they fly off the stand. Last year we got through over 500 keyrings, now bear in mind, this is a small sanctuary, that's enough to keep me busy between visits I can tell you. :p ;)

Anyhoo, sorry for side-jacking the thread. :)

SP00
08-16-2006, 09:22 AM
Thanks SCS5,

That's just the tip of the iceberg :D



Colkai,

How do you do it at home, do you use plastic/rubber in liquid form or was it resin and have it set solid in silicon moulds?

I saw a tv show on how a person made plastic earrings but didn't catch the whole segement..but was left with the above impression.

Kuzey


I love Keychains, I would love to see things like that given away at siggraph. How about packing those in the LW9 boxes. Hey, Kuzey, why don't you just print them out and sell them to us. Just ask Newtek for permission.

Matt
08-16-2006, 09:52 AM
Personally, I would just like to see NewTek become MUCH more slick and organised in its approach.

A simple example of what I mean can be seen with the encoding quality of the SIGGRAPH videos (ignoring the content for a second). Absolutely awful, sorry, but they are. Now go and look at the ones on Lux's site, crystal clear and crisp, slickly produced, and NewTek are supposed to be the ones that KNOW video / encoding etc.

This might sound trivial, but for me it's the small things like this that add up to a BIG impression, EVERYTHING you do, every email, demo, communication, example of work etc. should be razor sharp in its intent.

I mean, take the SIGGRAPH demo of the sticky plugin, while I have issue that this feature was given so much airtime as if it was a major feature, no one but existing LW users would even care about that, and then even existing LW users are thinking, why show that? (Even if it is useful).

And here's the other thing, if you HAVE to show that, why not have a Z-Brush detailed face with baked GI shading to make the head that the tear rolled down look absolutely awesome on screen, as appose to a basic cartoon head.

You see what I mean, use EVERY edge to make LW look as cool as possible, you need to start thinking BIG.

Sorry for the rant, I know you guys are working ****ed hard, and most of what we say is obvious, but sometimes I feel like we NEED to say it!

I just want to see LW back on top again is all!

Matt

Nemoid
08-16-2006, 09:56 AM
well, my 2 cents here

marketing is a strange beast. It makes possible to sell very well if things are well presented, and demoed , and are higly accessible for potential new clients. but sometimes iit happens its all smoke in clients eyes. so, nothing can beat a good product.

but, even an astonishing product needs classy marketing
(i'd better say : advertising)


i wasn't at Siggraph, but i saw Nt Sig videos online. unfortunately they mainly covered things i do know iet and that were presented in video form yet. but this is not the only problem.

i mainly agree with what beverins has pointed out in his posts.

the general vadlid rule is to believe in your product, and make this appear as plain evident to the clients . other wise it immediately feels like you don't fully believe in your product = product is worse than other ones.

so, this includes the fact that a presentation should be very attractive for old and new users, in many areas, from how the booth is projected, to how the product is presented.

the booth appeared to me quite well projected, ansd i liked mainly how Proton and Andy demoed Lw, but i think that a presentation of a reborn tool as you state Lw9.0 is should be way more complete, and appealing.

this includes showing great model (and i think cool artists like Proton among many others have great models to use for a demo )
includes demoing very well all the cool features Lw has into a very classy way
(for example : seeing four wheels going onto a terrain foollowing it very well is cool, but what about seeing a complete range rover or orther car doing that), and even more what about setting up the scene from scratch?

showing APS with a cool head model make that same features become way more appealing for the user.

btw these are small examples.

also, i agree with the fact that, since Lw has fantastic artists in their userbase, a good presentation could include them as demo artists. I'd say: even seeing them at work with Lw could be very attractive on what Lw could deliver.

BTW, images are also important so great renderings have to be showed.


also, a rendering demo focused showing what Lw is capable of in good hands, could be worth

and , BTW what people wants mainly to see has to be demoed as well. they wanna see high level character animation, they wanna see creatures showing Lw model with disp maps move into a scene, and renders of that.

a good demo disk of Lw also is important this should have been delivered just for Siggraph time, so that people could try out the app when they returned home.


actually there are plenty of things you could do to improve marketing in several areas :

- a better designed website, according to design you adopt, from package, to website, to brochure and all printed material all should be part of same design project.all this is part of the product. show cool renders in your main pages. link recent videos on them too.

- downloadable demo with link in website main page, with account creation and related newsletter to remember clients about lw

- cool training videos and material, both printed, and online (just watch what Avid offers)

- always updated gallery and informations about Lw and studios, about all new productiosn involving Lw.

-Videos and tuts showing features/new features, even during the year. keep the clients aware of what you're developing they have to know what's going on. always.

- be "scary" and most important : be classy !!! both in design , and other aspects of your marketing.


ok now i stop and hope this could be useful in some way.

Cageman
08-16-2006, 11:06 AM
Snip...
I just want to see LW back on top again is all!

Matt

Matt, I think you read my mind. We all know how capable LW is, but the demos at SIGGRAPH are so 1997... I think NT and the demo-guys need to understand what stuff are old and what are new. Edges are... OLD... outside LW. Actually, when I told a friend that LW8.x didn't have edges he thought I was joking around. When he finaly landed a job that relies alot on LW, he was like... "Man... I was certain you joked with me... I couldn't belive that LW didn't have edges." The same studio also use Modo; guess where my friend went?

And BAM... NT shows EDGES at their booth at SIGGRAPH... oh my....

Exeptions:

When Andy showed the inside of the Landrover and actually rendered a frame. It rendered pretty quick for being a HDRI-lit interior. Also, the fact that the HDRI-lighting was stored so you could tweak it in realtime later on was pretty awesome. MORE of that!!!!

When Andy showed all the camera-lenses avaliable. ****... I can understand if VFX-people got that "I want!!!" expression in their faces.

What I wanted to see at SIGGRAPH:

More about APS, animated windpaths (some crazy twister or something), Node-shading in conjuction with APS and ZBrush-displacements. Show how easy it is to create good looking SSS on a kick-*** object displaced with Zbrush-painted maps and how useful APS is in actually saving rendertime not having to displace stuff not seen in camera. Keep it simple, but still beautifull. I bet there are some people that would gladly contribute with both information and objects/workflow so the demo-guys not necesarily needs to know everything. Make a competition.. well, anything to attract the artists to contribute with something worthwhile enough to watch.

I'm a Lightwave-guy, so I know what can be achived, but the guys using XSI, Maya or Max doesn't necessarily know what LW is capable of.. those are the guys you need to impress the most. Think about that next time, NT. :)

Bog
08-16-2006, 11:10 AM
Well, Autodesk User *koff* I mean "3D World Magazine" just released a 4-page article telling you how to spend 2.5 hours doing a single page-turn in Maya.

Time for a not-blistering letter to the editor saying "Er, no mush... you do it like this... like in the advertorial you printed in February. You know. The one you didn't read"

I should be happy that they've given me an opportunity to fight back with a better method and more suitable software than the ones they've posted, and I'm sure I will be. As soon as my teeth stop grinding.

If we all keep out eyes open and always take a chance to post a calm, measured "But you could do it better this way" when we see this sort of stuff crossing our bailiwick, then we can do Guerilla Good. (Must >not< swear in email.... )

SP00
08-16-2006, 11:17 AM
I would break up the strategy into 3 phases with the following order.

Phase 1 - Preparing the selling materials - Demo and Website

1) Get the Demo Out (I think it might be a good idea to wait for 9.1 release to work out some of the bugs) In the meantime, they can add:

- getting started flash tutorials
----getting familiar with modelers interface
----basic modeling tutorials
----basic texturing tutorials
----getting familiar with Layout interface
----basic lighting
----basic animation
----basic particle creation
----basic rendering

- Include a 3 minute demo reel, with audio, of all the high profile projects LW has been used in. Use footage that will make them go WOW!

The tuturial can show a simple workflow of creating 1 object and bringing it thru a pipeline to completion. Obviously making a flash tutorial with popup boxes instead of voices will keep the file size down.

If the Demo will not be out anytime soon, use a e-mail list to let them know when the demo will be release on the site.

Provide the option of a mailed demo on 1 CD and the option to download it in 2 pieces from the site (installation file, tutorial with demoreel file).

2) Update the Website with the latest and greatest information and making it as trouble free as possible. This includes

- Making sure the Video are viewable by following the most popular video codec format. This will eliminate the need of a seperate codec installation that is currently on the site and eliminate confusion in accessing the video.
- Provide an updated list of every high profile movies LW has been involved in.
- Make sure people understand the pricing structure, especially if they are switching from a different app.
- Make sure to conduct some user test to see if the site is easy to understand and navigate. Yes, it cost $50 to some stranger on the street and about 1 hour of time.
- Consistant branding across the board (which I think you are doing)
- Provide the consumer a list of LW strengths and capitalize it. Modeling workflow speed, texturing strength with the node editor, highly capable renderer that provides a high quality low budget render farm solution. Price and the fact that it DOES NOT REQUIRE A YEARLY LICENSE.

This needs to be well presented on the site. As your website will be your best marketing tool.


Phase 2 - Mass Marketing in Magazines, Game Level Editors, Websites.

After you got your demo and website up. You need to draw some attention and get them to you website. Then they can see what the company has to say and let them tryout the demo.

1) Advertise in magazines and make sure reviewers are well informed about the products. Especially the strengths and weakness of the product. If it has a weakness, what can be done to alleviate it? Free Plugins from Flay.com? (not a problem provided the plugins are easy to get and easy to install) Provide the demo/training materials in their packaged CD/DVD

2) Videogames are a big market and many companies are providing level editors with their games. These games with level editors can be tackled by LW. Ship a cut down LW game edition with these level editors, and train a new breed of LW users. Similar I guess to gmax, but packaged in.

3) Once the demo is finished, put banner ads on big website to draw users to the LW website to download the demo. Obviously, you might want to announce a lightwave contest on these sites at the same time. These two combine create a bigger impact than doing them seperately.


Phase 3 - Micro Marketing with Key High Profile Studios and Schools

1) If you can setup these companies up with LW and when they start using the program, it becomes free advertising. A deal can be made where NT will provide free or low cost licenses of LW and the related training to get LW into their pipeline. In return, these studio must mention LW with any interivew they get. Free advertising, well not completely free since you guys have to give them free copies and provide the training. This can be applied to the Movie and Game industry and of course they are only to the best in the business.

2) Tackle schools and give them as many free copies of LW as they need. Suggest textbooks that will go with class learning experience. As long as they use it only in a class setting. Make sure that the school provides all the students with information about getting the student edition of LW and info on getting a commercial version. This is an investment that won't see a return until after these students graduate.

I"m sure many of these things you have covered Chuck, so I'm probably repeating and hopefully reinforcing some ideas.

Cageman
08-16-2006, 11:32 AM
Well, Autodesk User *koff* I mean "3D World Magazine"

LOL!!! :D Now I got beer in my knee thanks to you... ;)

EDIT: Your idea is great, and something I've never thought of before. Well, sometimes working in Maya I can get fed up with some stupid thing that is easy-peasy to do in LW. Having said that, I can feel the same way working in LW; something that could be done alot easier in Maya.

08-16-2006, 12:32 PM
I've never bought a single 3d application through marketing efforts, unless you count in person demonstrations where the demo team is actually answering my questions and showing me features that I ask for personally. "Can your software do this? How well? Show me." Aside from that every software purchase I've ever made was through a direct install and trial use period where I get to see what it can do with my own eyes.

For all the slick video content and prestentations by Brad and co at Lux or all the millions spent on Maya and Max advertising, those things have never even remotely swayed me. Bottom line is results. If the software itself can't produce those then I'm just not interested - no matter how much you try to pretty it up for me.

My advice: don't waste any money on marketing. Spend it all on development and you'll get your marketing for free anyway. Look at mudbox and zbrush. One was an overnight success - not through any marketing efforts, but through users spreading the word like wildfire about an app that totally revolutionizes the way we work. The other isn't even on the market yet and the hype machine is nothing more than a frenzied mass of beta testers and media types wondering what the h3ll these mudbox users are jumping up and down about.

Good tools will sell themselves. Software isn't the same as Coke vs Pepsi. There's no battle for mindshare required when your target market are tech savvy creative types who probably know more about what they want out of your product than you do.

Phil
08-16-2006, 01:32 PM
I've never bought a single 3d application through marketing efforts, unless you count in person demonstrations where the demo team is actually answering my questions and showing me features that I ask for personally. "Can your software do this? How well? Show me." Aside from that every software purchase I've ever made was through a direct install and trial use period where I get to see what it can do with my own eyes.


We don't have a trial or demo version for LW yet. We haven't since 8.0. That's an awful long time to rest idle in this market. Compare and contrast with *every* other package out there - they are falling over themselves to build.....



There's no battle for mindshare required when your target market are tech savvy creative types who probably know more about what they want out of your product than you do.

....mindshare. The market is tightly compressed with XSI Foundation pitched very aggressively to the price-sensitive market. If you were keen to pick up a package now, you have (in this case) the example set by XSI (demo version, knock-you-down-and-steal-your-boots presentations, rapid updates) or by NewTek (no demo version, scrappy presentations, update pace yet to be determined for 9.0).

If you think there is no battle for mindshare, you are greatly mistaken. In the continuing absence of a demo version or learning edition, NewTek's only mechanism for actually getting bums on seats is their marketing material. For trade shows, they continue to drop the ball, though.

Wonderpup
08-16-2006, 02:16 PM
Find a way to clone Andy Bishop a couple of dozen times and Newtek could take over the planet- a bit of a loose cannon but a fantastic advocate for the software.

I'm not sure I'd really like a totaly 'professional' Newtek- one of the things that put me off Max was the feeling of dealing with a corporate monolith- faceless and remote. With Newtek you do get to feel more involved- like what you say actualy does matter and will be heard.

Pavlov
08-16-2006, 02:25 PM
James - if LW is publicized like now, maybe it's better like you say.
Problem is Newtek's marketing - sad but true, dont want to offend anyone here - is truly kid-oriented. Usual demo content's level and features shown in movies are targeted to young, new-to-3d guys.
This is the reason i was very upset when first 9's videos came out - they did it for real, Speedy Booleans and Custom Null movies, i could not believe my eyes.
Repeating my intention is not offensive, i must say something is very odd into what they think users (current and potential) need to see to buy the software. This is assuming their intention is to sell the software, btw.
In 9's videos there are 70% of useless and potentially damaging videos - think at someone who comes in and watches at speedy booleans, flatten, custom null and item selector movies. I guess this one wont come back on Newtek's site for years.
Hope this thread will be useful for NT to recalibratre their communicaton target.

Paolo

08-16-2006, 02:27 PM
I'm talking mindshare in the way that marketing is typically approached - thus my coke vs pepsi example. 3d software doesn't sell that way, and if you think it does, then you are the one who is mistaken. Maya and Max didn't come to dominate the market because of advertising campaigns. They dominate the market because the original adopters were major studios in film and games having their needs met by the toolsets and then building their pipelines up around them over the years. Educators and artists looking for jobs in those studios are interested in those tools because that's what the job demands, not because marketing efforts caught their attention.

Getting the product into users hands is the best way to sell it, as we can see from all the existing trial and demo versions that anyone with an internet connection can access. This is the absolute best way to sell because it pits your product directly up against your competition and cuts through the crap. If the user doesn't like what they see compared to whatever other demos they try, you lose the sale. Simple really. Also if you think Newtek will ever be able to market its way into major studios with page layouts and banner adds you are dead wrong. LW will have to compete with well entrenched pipelines for one thing - pipelines it missed out on at a time when it was critical to being integrated.

Unless newtek pulls some noteworthy tools and innovation out of its hat that will at least allow LW to sneak into established pipelines to be used for specific tasks that cannot be found elsewhere, LW will not gain any further ground. Educators and artists will continue to buy into these studio apps because that's what is demanded of them and nothing will change. If you want work, you learn the tools of your employer.

Luxology understood this quite well when they introduced modo. At a time when polygon modeling is at an all time necessity in most pipelines they introduce a new tool focused directly on that, and then follow it up with painting/rendering features that directly compliment the modeling toolset... this is the stuff game and film pipelines want to see.

For all the complainers who whine that there are no animation tools in Modo yet, that doesn't matter to studios because there's no way they would adopt a first gen animation tool that is not production tested. Lux knows they will have a much harder time selling people on animation - but at least when they do add it, modo will already have found its way into some studios. That could be all the edge they need to start taking a bite out of the market - especially as current pipeline tools start to show their age.

One more thing...
We certainly didn't switch from LW to XSI at our studio because of any marketing. I compared XSI to every major application out there and weighted the results against what we found lacking in LW for our needs specifically.
Softimage marketing had nothing to do with that.

Foundation is a complete anomaly. I seriously doubt it is making any money for Softimage directly, in and of itself. Foundation itself IS the marketing tool. It's main purpose is to introduce people to the XSI toolset at a price they can afford and basically prepare them for graduation to the Essentials and Advanced versions where Soft actually makes its XSI money.

The other aspect is that it is killing its competition in terms of price. When it is just as accessible as all the low to mid range programs out there, but providing tools that far exceed most of what those applications can offer, that pretty much secures future users. It's really just a cleverly disguised demo that you can actually use to do commercial work - which many freelance and budget consciouse studios appreciate. This also explains why there is no support for Foundation. You can't get on a maintenance contract for it and there's no tech support like there is for the other versions. If Softimage had to spend resources like that to support Foundation, there would be no Foundation.

Anyone who is willing to spend hundreds or thousands of dollars on a piece of software because of advertising, without actually trying it out for themselves is a fool and deserves to have their money taken.

SP00
08-16-2006, 02:28 PM
I've never bought a single 3d application through marketing efforts, unless you count in person demonstrations where the demo team is actually answering my questions and showing me features that I ask for personally. "Can your software do this? How well? Show me." Aside from that every software purchase I've ever made was through a direct install and trial use period where I get to see what it can do with my own eyes.

For all the slick video content and prestentations by Brad and co at Lux or all the millions spent on Maya and Max advertising, those things have never even remotely swayed me. Bottom line is results. If the software itself can't produce those then I'm just not interested - no matter how much you try to pretty it up for me.

My advice: don't waste any money on marketing. Spend it all on development and you'll get your marketing for free anyway. Look at mudbox and zbrush. One was an overnight success - not through any marketing efforts, but through users spreading the word like wildfire about an app that totally revolutionizes the way we work. The other isn't even on the market yet and the hype machine is nothing more than a frenzied mass of beta testers and media types wondering what the h3ll these mudbox users are jumping up and down about.

Good tools will sell themselves. Software isn't the same as Coke vs Pepsi. There's no battle for mindshare required when your target market are tech savvy creative types who probably know more about what they want out of your product than you do.

Although this has worked for you, there are also clients that needs to be aware of LW, not just the 3D animators themselves. Some clients will want to know what software is used in the studio. If they hear Maya, it will instill confidence because they are familiar with it, but if LW is not known, it might not instill confidence in them. Some managers might want to start a small department for 3D, but they are not experts in 3D. When they get a proposal to start a department, Maya might be what they want, while the 3D animators might want LW. These are just some examples. In that sense, marketing is still very important. Word of mouth is great for the initial stages and if you have an innovative feature that nobody else has. NT is not really in that position, so I think marketing is still important.

08-16-2006, 02:35 PM
Hey Pavlov, I kindof agree with you there too. I have to say I was pretty disappointed with most of what I saw... partly because I've already moved on to other modeling, UV and animation tools out of necessity, but also because I'm not interested in LW as a rendering tool. I work in real time mostly. Rendering stuff is irrelevant to me.

So I'm just holding on to my LW 9 license and hoping to see all the promised additions that are coming to us over the 9.x cycle. I also really enjoy using PIM, which focuses entirely on real time output, and could actually make LW more attractive to other game artists like me. I certainly don't count LW out for the count yet. But I really do hope to see improvements that are important to ME in this cycle.

tyrot
08-16-2006, 02:48 PM
dear wavers..

we all agreed on something that Siggraphs are getting boring,repetitive and less attractive. Why? Because "Marketing team is happy what they do" They were happy last year and previous years. Because their boss is happy. SO it will be go on like this.

I suggest if they go on like this, they shouldnt bother going Siggraph San Diego 2007. Really Save the money, party money, beer money and give that to Antti as a bonus, or purchase the Source COde of KRay. SO much more better for us. But not for them. I can understand them...Newtek is a good company. Even EA, Namco, Konami , Ubisoft pulled their stands from E3. ANd they transferred that money to development. Why Newtek has to give that money all those expenses to a team which produce same thing over and over again. They can do the samething from their headquarters, record the video and take it to the Siggraph put a Big Screen. Let us watch. I was gonna come this year, thanks God i wasnt there.

Plus i suggest we can go San Diego as hard core wavers and grab their arms open our notebooks show how we make money to a TOTAL Stranger. Trust me One on One would be so much better. After listening a bit Brain Tracy audio tapes we all would be unstoppable...

As long as marketing team is happy what they're constantly doing we will be writing here and doing the same thing.

Stop evangelism. I dont get it. Why would i need an evangelist show me some buttons? I need a great artist show me his work done in LW. Or a great guy from Mid-size company gets all the job in his area.. We are living in Online age. So all marketing focus should be online...

I feel like we are all doomed. We are destined to see all same thing. WHy am i complaining from the otherside of the planet. Because marketing team is making my business so hard. I have to tell my clients, worldwide, i do it in MAX or MAYA. It is so awful . WHY does everything must be as it was for years? Why cant you look at yourself in the mirror and tell "what the heck is wrong with our marketing?" "Why even our most crazy fanboys are screaming and yelling at forums?" " i dont find good artists to show their work? Why same toy-like models has to be everywhere as a product of Lightwave" "WHy in this big planet i Cant find a person who can translate Japanese to English?"

I cant answer those questions...They have to first REALIZE something is wrong. Or someone else has to show it "what s going on here"

Just for christ sake, stop giving your own appreciations to eachother. THere is a BIGz 3d Users' World out there. And everyone Knows what you are NOT doing it.

I as a great fan boy, Support new team,wholeheartly, If they need more money for programmers just OPEN a DONATION link. But make sure that NO marketing Guy will get anything from that money. We all send money to there.

Our Lightwave appreciation and Love is WAY more than COMPLEX and INTENSE than you could ever REFLECT with your current self-cycled system.

BEST

SP00
08-16-2006, 02:58 PM
Hey tyrot,

I understand your frustration, but I don't think we should take up pitchforks and torches yet. We have to give credit in areas that they did do right. The LW9 packaging is very good and the website is much better than before. Although it still needs work from a usability point of view. The demo is finally coming, so I would say they are definitely improving. It might not be as fast as we want, but things are changing, we just need to have a little patience. If by 9.5, things haven't improved too much, then we can rain some "death and decay" on them :)

Bog
08-16-2006, 03:11 PM
we all agreed on something that Siggraphs are getting boring,repetitive and less attractive. Why? Because "Marketing team is happy what they do" They were happy last year and previous years. Because their boss is happy. SO it will be go on like this.

We surely aren't. SIGGRAPH was not what is used to be, I gague this on my previous perspective of 9 years back. It's less about the guys with pencils woven into their beards, presenting off fanfold and mumbling about their packet physics models, more about commercialism for sure - but boring and repetative? Keerist! Andy Bish demoing Sticky and it's use for tears following face contours, and then driving vehicle tyres across a landscape? Sure, it's a commercial thing, but it's kick ***. Seeing what SpeedEdit can to in jig-time, and actually using the meatsock driving it to edit to the beat, without screwing around with fancy-dance algos that don't always work, but turning editing to music into a jam session? Tyrot, sir, this is not a personal attack. I like you. But you're dead wrong on that one.


I suggest if they go on like this, they shouldnt bother going Siggraph San Diego 2007. Really Save the money, party money, beer money and give that to Antti as a bonus, or purchase the Source COde of KRay. SO much more better for us. But not for them. I can understand them...Newtek is a good company. Even EA, Namco, Konami , Ubisoft pulled their stands from E3. ANd they transferred that money to development. Why Newtek has to give that money all those expenses to a team which produce same thing over and over again. They can do the samething from their headquarters, record the video and take it to the Siggraph put a Big Screen. Let us watch. I was gonna come this year, thanks God i wasnt there.

E3 was dying anyway. SIGGRAPH is only peripherally about the expo. I say again - SIGGRAPH is the Special Interest Group for Graphics. It is only peripherally about the expo. But, as with everything, it changes. The expo is the tendons of SIG. Without it, a lot of it would just fall apart and be an interesting mush of squishy tissue. The pixel-chinned Learneds who look at light dappling through leaves and see differential equations are the skeleton of SIG. The students and learning attendees are the muscles.

But you need the tendons, otherwise it's not a living being - it's an autopsy.


Plus i suggest we can go San Diego as hard core wavers and grab their arms open our notebooks show how we make money to a TOTAL Stranger. Trust me One on One would be so much better. After listening a bit Brain Tracy audio tapes we all would be unstoppable...

Tell you a better idea. We've got a year. Each and every one of us who reckons they can make it to San Diego next year, start putting together some material. And we send it to NewTek. And we say "I'd like to demo *this*", and submit a project, and some notes on a schpiel to go with it. I've got off the top of my head a half-dozen Deeply Cool things that I can give a darn good demo on, and I'm willing to do the journey.

Co-ordinate. Rally around the booth. Stand up and say "Hi, I'm Mark. I've been making a living off LightWave for 12 years. This is what I'm proud of, and this is how I did it."

I mean, yeah, we're not all called Mark, and we haven't all been doin' it for 12 years but you get my idea.

What say you, fellers and fellerettes? Proton? Paul? Ben? Jay?


Stop evangelism. I dont get it. Why would i need an evangelist show me some buttons? I need a great artist show me his work done in LW. Or a great guy from Mid-size company gets all the job in his area.. We are living in Online age. So all marketing focus should be online...

Our evangelists are people like Ben Vost, who'se been part of the community from the year dot. William "Proton" Vaughan, a respected tutor at DAVE School who's guided many alumni into their first proper animated short. Is Paul an evangelist? Damfino, but he knows his apples and has passion. We need evangelists - we need people who know the tech, have the talent, and whose job it is to always keep the message out there.

The Other People have shown that you can stop the signal. But, like you say, NewTek is a small company. So in a very real sense, it's our responsibility too to not just tend the flame, but to build it. We've been using it for years. We know it's good, but we also know it teeth, hair, warts and all. Who better to say "Yeah, but check this out...." hit Play and watch a jaw sag.


I feel like we are all doomed.

Brother, I'm here to tell you we most certainly are not. I've been hearing that since back on the Amiga and either I'm too stupid to realise I'm bankrupt or I just had one of the finest times of my life on what LightWave - and NewTek - made for me. Everyone wants us to be doomed. Nobody wants the awkward little not-publicly-traded no-stocks-to-buy no-porsches-to-be-bought little upstart to just go away and let the shareholders and their brokers have the 3D market to themselves.

*snort*

To quote a favourite character of mine: I aim to misbehave.


I cant answer those questions...They have to first REALIZE something is wrong. Or someone else has to show it "what s going on here"

Just for christ sake, stop giving your own appreciations to eachother. THere is a BIGz 3d Users' World out there. And everyone Knows what you are NOT doing it.

*peers over specs*

I think we'll rise again. There was a necessary drawing-of-breath while the Nine Cycle got it's momentum behind it. We paid a price - as users, we had to put up with a dead year or so. As NT, they had to put up with us knowing we were putting up with a dead year or so. But now, I think we've got traction again. 9 is here, and it's shiny and fulsome but it's smeg-all compared to what we'll be seeing. This isn't self-love, this is maybe faith, but it's also a lot of realism, a lot of experience, and it's having seen what they've been doing.

*chucks Tyrot's chin*

Be of good heart. It's never been a more powerful package, and with passionate lunatics like us to back up the rest of 'em, how can we fail!

They'll never see us comin' ;)


I as a great fan boy, Support new team,wholeheartly, If they need more money for programmers just OPEN a DONATION link. But make sure that NO marketing Guy will get anything from that money. We all send money to there.

I as a great pro reckon if they need more money, they'll hike the price instead of dropping it. They need more money, they'll let us know.


Our Lightwave appreciation and Love is WAY more than COMPLEX and INTENSE than you could ever REFLECT with your current self-cycled system.

Hey. They know. Really. This is why they did things like lay on a showing of Aliens of the Deep at the IMAX. A thousand LightWavers, all together, watching beautiful LightWave work in stereo 3D, and then a funded party for us afterwards. Tyrot... NewTek Understands. It's like that bit in Evita - they love us, because they are us.

End of ... well... brainfart....

parm
08-16-2006, 03:33 PM
30 day full working demo ASAP. With a few, quick start video tutorials thrown in.

Try before you buy. :thumbsup:

JVitale
08-16-2006, 09:33 PM
here's a review of LW 9 from VFX World...A not so flattering review I must say

http://vfxworld.com/?sa=adv&code=57c5ed8a&atype=articles&id=2972

Phil
08-16-2006, 11:10 PM
I can see where the review is being written from. It's comparing LW to where it would have been if it had not veered wildly of course and got stuck in a swamp between 7.5 and 8.0. In general I think it's also a grumpy review because it comes from a Maya instructor, but the general observations are accurate.

9.0 is a really good upgrade for LW, but as 9.0 and not 9.x, it's mostly bringing us things that catch up with the rest of the market. Relativity should have been the expression system since LW 6.0 *by default*, but instead we have 3 expression systems now (not even counting Amelie!). Nodal surfacing is neat, but various other packages have had this for a while so it's not ground breaking in wider terms. The OpenGL updates are very welcome, but again in a competitive market, it's not ground breaking. The camera tools are nice, but it's unfortunate that the perspective camera cannot cope with 1 and 2 point polys.

9.0 is an overhaul and foundation release for shiny (and stable!) things to come, including (I hope) a proper, easy to use and well implemented render layers system. No hacks, just goodness. For Modeler, one would hope that by 9.2, we start seeing some real efforts to rationalise the toolset to reduce the clutter and confusion.

I'd also like NT to add a feature to the SDK so that plugins can identify where they belong so that the interface can add them into place itself. The sprawling mess of 'Additional plugins' has got to come to an end....when plugins like LWCad add a great swathe of commands, menu editing gets old very quickly.

archiea
08-17-2006, 12:15 AM
thanks for posting that Jessica, but really, what response did you expect from the industry? I think the guy gave a very fair review, with perhaps one error: he states that NT had "flirted wi the idea {of a ground up rewrite] with this release but hasn't commited." I think the press releases have state that LW is being rewrittend in a mannerof stages. other than that, he did offer an accurate assessment as to where LW is in the industry, and also how LW is a great app for folks to learn 3D and ge their foot in the door with a great reel.. and with the new shading models in LW, I have to agree immensly on that note.

When folks ask me if they should learn 3D in LW, I ask them what their goal is.. if its to be a pipeline jockey in a big studio, I tell them to just learn that studio's app, as one can pretty much find great training resources for "the big three" (and a flippin' demo!!!). For an indie artist, "lone gunman", or industrial video ..basically small, self contained studios, it be silly to not consider LW. In fact, one would say its NT's philosophy.

many stated here that they want a more slick & sexy LW. After the , heh.. discussions... regarding a LW extreme, I'm not sure that many would agree. .. I meanit depends on the definition of "slick & sexy"... do we mean just better training materials, brochures and demo disks, or are we refering to the app itself. the above review paint a picture that is anything but slick and sexy...

Phil
08-17-2006, 02:44 AM
I'm talking mindshare in the way that marketing is typically approached - thus my coke vs pepsi example. 3d software doesn't sell that way, and if you think it does, then you are the one who is mistaken. Maya and Max didn't come to dominate the market because of advertising campaigns. They dominate the market because the original adopters were major studios in film and games having their needs met by the toolsets and then building their pipelines up around them over the years.


Marketing is not just about advertising. It's about demoing on-site, at exhibitions and really demonstrating that your product can deliver everything that you promise, all the time, every time.

NT don't seem to do this properly. They do not seem to have the confidence to really push the system to its utter limits in front of an audience. That isn't going to convince a facility that has never used, or perhaps previously used, LW to give it a chance. Jaw dropping demonstrations do all of this and so much more.



Educators and artists looking for jobs in those studios are interested in those tools because that's what the job demands, not because marketing efforts caught their attention.


The job defines the tools, but if you don't know that a nailgun exists, you'll keep using your old hammer. NT would do well to demonstrate the abilities of LW to those using other software.



Getting the product into users hands is the best way to sell it, as we can see from all the existing trial and demo versions that anyone with an internet connection can access. This is the absolute best way to sell because it pits your product directly up against your competition and cuts through the crap.


That only goes so far if you have limited time to evaluate it. I cannot count the number of times that I have had a demo package installed, but before I found time to work through the tutorials, the demo expired. Those usually don't stand much of a chance.

That said, seeing people push the software is a real indicator of the software. In particular, video tutorials are good for this. They show all levels of workflow and make particularly good marketing material as a result. That's why I'd like to see more marketing material head in this direction, including for trade show presentations. Model something challenging (not a logo!), animate something challenging (not a logo!), render something challenging (not a logo!).



If the user doesn't like what they see compared to whatever other demos they try, you lose the sale. Simple really. Also if you think Newtek will ever be able to market its way into major studios with page layouts and banner adds you are dead wrong. LW will have to compete with well entrenched pipelines for one thing - pipelines it missed out on at a time when it was critical to being integrated.


I think we actually agree. I'm not talking about printed adverts. I'm talking about tradeshows, videos, etc. that really push the unique advantages of LW. The same is actually true for developers and pipelines. Alternative renderer support is still weak, with FPrime demonstrating many of the outstanding problems still remain.

Given the complete lack of useful tutorials for developers in the SDK, NT would also do well to consider marketing material like video tutorials for LScript and the SDK itself. Demonstrate the full range of these developer-related addons and you might get more highend solutions like Syflex banging on the door.



For all the complainers who whine that there are no animation tools in Modo yet, that doesn't matter to studios because there's no way they would adopt a first gen animation tool that is not production tested. Lux knows they will have a much harder time selling people on animation - but at least when they do add it, modo will already have found its way into some studios. That could be all the edge they need to start taking a bite out of the market - especially as current pipeline tools start to show their age.


Hmm. A slight nitpick here: Pitch Black's effects were created in the first release of Maya. The creators did suffer quite a lot due to this, though :D

For me, though, I have a reluctance to deal with Lux until they begin to show the full package, including the long promised, but still absent, linux port. I'm also waiting to see if NT wake up in this respect, but my patience will only be as long as the 9.x cycle.



One more thing...
We certainly didn't switch from LW to XSI at our studio because of any marketing. I compared XSI to every major application out there and weighted the results against what we found lacking in LW for our needs specifically.
Softimage marketing had nothing to do with that.


I keep an eye on XSI. It really was a toss-up between XSI and the 9.0 upgrade this time. Much of this is due to the demo version and some occasional indirect access I get to the software itself. I picked up a PointOven license explicitly for this (and tolerate the onerous licensing for now).



Foundation is a complete anomaly. I seriously doubt it is making any money for Softimage directly, in and of itself. Foundation itself IS the marketing tool. It's main purpose is to introduce people to the XSI toolset at a price they can afford and basically prepare them for graduation to the Essentials and Advanced versions where Soft actually makes its XSI money.


Yep. It works well as a result, although I remain baffled why the price difference between the Win32 and Linux versions is so large. It also helps that there is so much training material out there.



The other aspect is that it is killing its competition in terms of price. When it is just as accessible as all the low to mid range programs out there, but providing tools that far exceed most of what those applications can offer, that pretty much secures future users. It's really just a cleverly disguised demo that you can actually use to do commercial work - which many freelance and budget consciouse studios appreciate.


Well I'm budget aware, so this is why it appeals to me. It's extremely keenly priced. I would be even happier if the Win32 and Linux versions came in the same package :D



This also explains why there is no support for Foundation. You can't get on a maintenance contract for it and there's no tech support like there is for the other versions. If Softimage had to spend resources like that to support Foundation, there would be no Foundation.


That's well and good, but as a regular end-user, support from NT has generally been of little use. My favourite gripe is a bug that I reported in 7.5 with multithreaded rendering. It was confirmed by NT, but rather than fix it in the 6 months ahead of the 7.5d point release for the then-current LW version, they reserved the fix for 8.0. That's harsh and completely negated any claim to support that the company made for its products.

OB for 9.0 is, however, a nice change of policy for NT, though I wait to see how well it works in the upcoming updates. Support is only useful if it actually helps you. Perhaps the situation is better for larger customers and all smaller customers of all software encounter this problem *shrug*



Anyone who is willing to spend hundreds or thousands of dollars on a piece of software because of advertising, without actually trying it out for themselves is a fool and deserves to have their money taken.

I'm not going to argue with that, but marketing takes many forms. Some of it can help build a shortlist of applications that might be useful and usable. All those learning editions, high-octane video presentations (e.g. Gigapoly core from Softimage), etc. cost money. The companies behind them obviously see a return on this investment, so marketing must work :)

The question remains, though, why people have been waiting since 8.0 shipped for a readily available, no-nonsense, demo version of LW.

Kuzey
08-17-2006, 02:53 AM
Nothing that fancy, simple blank insert keyrings for me, I buy the blanks, print out the inserts from photos I take of the birds / animals. Do all the cutting etc and assembly myself. www.plastics-direct.co.uk is the place I get my blanks from and they are cheap enough, even at low volumes, to make it viable.

The only time I buy pre-formed & precut inserts is for the coasters with them being circular. Nothing as fancy as the flexi-silicone ones, but I'll tell you this, they fly off the stand. Last year we got through over 500 keyrings, now bear in mind, this is a small sanctuary, that's enough to keep me busy between visits I can tell you. :p ;)

Anyhoo, sorry for side-jacking the thread. :)

Many thanks Colkai,

I never thought of using pre made stuff, sounds like a great return for such little effort :D

ps...page bookmarked :D

Kuzey

Kuzey
08-17-2006, 03:10 AM
I love Keychains, I would love to see things like that given away at siggraph. How about packing those in the LW9 boxes. Hey, Kuzey, why don't you just print them out and sell them to us. Just ask Newtek for permission.


Thanks SP00,

Yes I did ask Newtek, well Kurtis...I wanted to bother someone else beside Chuck this time around :D , but that was for t-shirts. The impression I got was it was going to be a no but making it for them to sell/give away might get a different response. Actually, the latter would be better for my cousin, shipping a mass of stock instead of individually doing it for each customer would save a lot of effort.

I am making prototypes of other products for his friend who makes all the heavy steel moulds they use and I was thinking I might get a free test mould or two out of the deal...and make a prototype of a keyring. Just so Newtek can see how it looks in the real world...but that would be sometime away :)

But if Newtek wanted to see a sample with the idea of taking orders then that move quickly, depending on the numbers wanted off course :D

Kuzey

SCS5
08-17-2006, 05:51 AM
I also just read the review. Sorry Newtek, but that review hit the nail right on the head. Bragging about Edges at SIGGRAPH 2006? That's like a car company saying they've just added seat-belts to all their cars!..Then wondering why no one's impressed? Like I said Marketing! Look at the other 3D vendors on the show floor, see what their showing..All the reviews of 9X I've read up until now we're from fan-boys.This is the first realistic review I've seen. What's it gonna take for Lightwave to catch up, or even surpass the competition? Any ideas?

SP00
08-17-2006, 06:52 AM
Yeah, although, it was a fair review, he is still a maya users. So you can hear the slight bias in his writting. Some of his comments were just damaging and it wasn't about LW9. An example would be his comment about the shrinking userbase, not necessary in the LW9 review, but yet damaging to anyone who is new to 3D. Right now the old perception of LW is working against them. Even if LW9 was equal to Maya and Max, its old perception is still lingering on. They need to work twice as hard to get rid of that old image.

Bog
08-17-2006, 06:57 AM
Am I the only user who realises that the last year or so's been one long tail-chase, and that 9.0 is, in a lot of ways, just reaching parity with current tech-levels and that the really good stuff it what's coming up?

Or maybe I just drank too much Kool-Aid at the parties. It was tasty Kool-Aid, though.

James Edwards
08-17-2006, 07:05 AM
Hehe I think you're right Phil... seems like we pretty much do agree - even on the marketing stuff... I do consider demos and such as marketing, and I was only trying to separate them from the more superficial, in-your-face forms of it.

SP00
08-17-2006, 07:58 AM
Am I the only user who realises that the last year or so's been one long tail-chase, and that 9.0 is, in a lot of ways, just reaching parity with current tech-levels and that the really good stuff it what's coming up?

Or maybe I just drank too much Kool-Aid at the parties. It was tasty Kool-Aid, though.

I believe LW9 is the tip of the iceberg. I'm hoping LW10 equals the competition and that LW11 surpasses them. We should know if this will happen by LW9.x cycle.

Phil
08-17-2006, 08:06 AM
Am I the only user who realises that the last year or so's been one long tail-chase, and that 9.0 is, in a lot of ways, just reaching parity with current tech-levels and that the really good stuff it what's coming up?

Or maybe I just drank too much Kool-Aid at the parties. It was tasty Kool-Aid, though.

Nope - I think that's why you get slightly grumpy reviews of 9.0. From my point of view, it is now for NT to follow-through with rapid, properly conceived updates (no more hacks!). The point releases must also bring a sustained effort to consolidate the myriad tools that all do almost the same thing (no more extender+++ type naming nonsense).*

Anyway, there is so much feedback on these forums that they are not short of material and with OB available to them, they have no excuse for dropping the ball any more. 9.0 is a good start - the proof will be 9.1,9.2, etc. I have confidence in the dev team. Hopefully they won't prove me wrong :)

* I know this is feature-related, but :

1) Getting render pass support in *now* would be also very welcome - I'm so very tired of having to screw around with matte objects and other nonsense just to get usable masks out of LW. It doesn't need to be this difficult. There's no point having all these shiny features if I have still to jump through endless hoops to actually get the output in the way I want it.

2) Having a proper glow effect that works with reflections and refractions would also be progress. This feature hasn't been adjusted in any way since at least 4.0 and is completely inadequate (it was even then).

3) Volumetric caustics would be nice. Even having the volumetrics handle mirrors would be useful :b

jeremyhardin
08-17-2006, 08:10 AM
Yeah, although, it was a fair review, he is still a maya users. So you can hear the slight bias in his writting...

I'm a maya user...does that make me biased? Hardly. C'mon. That connection is an assumed one (maya user = biased). As I said in the cgtalk thread discussing this review...
Software usage is not a religion or a monogamous relationship. Multiple softwares is ok after all. :thumbsup:

Phil
08-17-2006, 08:23 AM
I'm a maya user...does that make me biased? Hardly. C'mon. That connection is an assumed one (maya user = biased). As I said in the cgtalk thread discussing this review...
Software usage is not a religion or a monogamous relationship. Multiple softwares is ok after all. :thumbsup:

Hmm. I think, to take it to extremes, that a Maya-background would 'taint' a review of something like Truespace. Truespace could have a phenomenally comprehensive update and still fall short of the expectations of someone who has used Maya most of the time. This doesn't mean that the upgrade itself isn't worthy and important.

That's the feel I got from this review. 9.0 is an important update. It's probably the most significant since 5.5, at least to my mind. It is, despite that, a catch-up and foundation release. What matters now is what NT do next and how rapidly.

SP00
08-17-2006, 08:28 AM
I'm a maya user...does that make me biased? Hardly. C'mon. That connection is an assumed one (maya user = biased). As I said in the cgtalk thread discussing this review...
Software usage is not a religion or a monogamous relationship. Multiple softwares is ok after all. :thumbsup:


Yes, but your 3d apps of choice are:

LW, XSI, Maya

So ur different :)

jeremyhardin
08-17-2006, 08:31 AM
Haha. Fair enough. :D

mjcrawford
08-17-2006, 09:39 AM
Ok, I know I am a noob and all, but I think that NT is really missing the boat on this one…

Why is an Apple computer the computer of choice among many artists? Is it because an Apple can do things that no P.C. can? No. (please don’t flame me on this.. comparing Mac’s to P.C.’s is not the point here)

Apple did a very good job getting their products at no cost or low cost to students! When those Students grew up into artists, they went with what they know and believed (weather true or not) that Apple was the only way to go.

I am a collage student taking 3D animation and Game design. In my 3d classes the software choices are Maya or 3DS Max. I have been doing my assignments in Maya, and then just for fun, doing them again in Lightwave. My professors love when I do that! Many of my professors use Lightwave, but cannot teach it due to administrative choices to use Maya and 3DS Max.

NT needs to get with the collages and start getting LW in the hands of students! Offer the collages software and support and training materials and in a few years those students will choose LW when they are doing work.

NT should NOT boast when LW is used to do pre-vis work as that always begs the question.. “ok so what did they use for the final version” I.E. Spiderman2

NT is the only solid pro level choice that is relatively affordable.. Advertise the product to a wider market… I have never seen a TV spot for 3D software.. I could see watching “Battlestar Galactica brought to you by NewTek’s Lightwave9.. Lightwave can power the Galactica… it can power your dreams as well..” or something like that…

SP00
08-17-2006, 09:47 AM
yeah, Battlestar Galactica is such a popular show that was done in LW. It would do wonders for LW image if they place something in the credits at least.

SP00
08-17-2006, 09:50 AM
double post

mjcrawford
08-17-2006, 09:53 AM
yeah, Battlestar Galactica is such a popular show that was done in LW. It would do wonders for LW image if they place something in the credits at least.

I got into lightwave because I wanted to make 3d spaceships.. I read an article in a mainstream mag about ST:Voyager in the article they mentioned a program called Lightwave... I then hunted it down and got the studant version.. let's face it, Sci-Fi fans are geeks, and if you get the word out.. they will come!

SCS5
08-17-2006, 10:09 AM
Lightwave was doing Spaceships 10 years ago! It's time to think BIGGER!..Nothing against those out-there who like doing Spaceships, but, any 3D app can do that..It's time to pull out all the stops!!!..Only show the best you got. That's what all the other 3D apps are doing....MARKETING!

mjcrawford
08-17-2006, 10:33 AM
Lightwave was doing Spaceships 10 years ago! It's time to think BIGGER!..Nothing against those out-there who like doing Spaceships, but, any 3D app can do that..It's time to pull out all the stops!!!..Only show the best you got. That's what all the other 3D apps are doing....MARKETING!

I had heard of the video toster back in the B5 days, but its price tag prevented me from considering getting one, and not until I started looking into Lightwave did I know that VT and LW were related. If the goal of marketing is to increase sales volume, would not advertising on high profile CG shows make sence? as for non Sci-Fi I agree that there is more to LW than spaceships.. I am just relating how I got into it. I think that my idea of getting it in the hands of art studants is a viable solution along with some media campaigning in shows that use LW for effects like BSG, SG-1, Smallville, etc.. it would be worth a trial run at least.

Dave Jerrard
08-17-2006, 10:51 AM
My biggest issues with LightWave's marketing is the image it's getting, from demos to the manuals. I haven't had a chance to look at the LW9 manuals yet (been having too much just playing with the new stuff), so maybe this has been addressed already. But I'll mention it anyway. :hey:

Samples of work done in LightWave should represent the top of th eline, state of tha art, quality that can be done with LightWave pushed to the limit. Not cartoonish Seuss-like characters. This is not an attack on Proton or his work. His examples are good at demonstrating various features. Unfortunately, at least with the 8.x manuals, these examples are overused, and end up making the application look like this is all it can do. Most people getting into 3D have stars in their eyes and want to do King Kong, or Lord of The Rings type stuff. This is the type of material that should really be showcased like it is in the brochures & website. This shoudl also be prevailent in the manuals and demos.

Speaking of which...

Am I the only one that's been cringing at the latest demos? If I was in a drinking game and had to take a swig every time the phrase "So cool" was uttered, I would be dead, and so would anyone withing 100 feet of me, from my liver exploding. Also, all these demos that keep pointing out how much you can charge for something that's so easy or so little work. Very bad mojo here. This has been going on for years now, at Siggraph and NAB, and every time, I hear the same angry complaints from people that have seen these demos. I have those same angry complaints. These demos are not just being seen by animators or producers, but also by their clients! And these groups both know that the other group is present. Producers and animator don't like being told how to price their work, and are even less thrilled about having someone shouting out to the masses that something they can charge $2000 for only takes a few minutes to do. Their clients are equally not going to be thrilled to find out that something they PAID $2000 for only took a few minutes to do. This just sets up a bad situation where the clients are now going to expect to pay less, feel ripped off, or find someone else to do their work. Producers aren't going to be happy about having people thinking that they're always being overcharged, or that everything is going to be so easy, or even having these types of pricing scheme publicly announce, whether they use them or not.

A demo should be a demo of the software, and that's all. Business practices should not be mentioned. Leave this to the people that do this for a living already, because that's their business, not NewTek's.

There are NO cool features in a demo. There's some powerful ones, convenient ones, time saving ones, even great ones, but there are no cool ones. Cool is for kids. The rest of us want powerful tools that can help us get our work done or make it better. We don't have time for cool.

LightWave has to drop this 'cool' attitude if it's going to be taken seriously. It's a serious tool, and getting more serious all the time, but calling it cool is just knocking it back down again.

He Who Is Glad He Doesn't Drink, And Thus Won't Have A Liver Detonate At The Next Demo - Hopefully.

Bog
08-17-2006, 11:20 AM
Software usage is not a religion or a monogamous relationship. Multiple softwares is ok after all.

As long as you practise safe hex.

Bog
08-17-2006, 11:25 AM
Samples of work done in LightWave should represent the top of th eline, state of tha art, quality that can be done with LightWave pushed to the limit. Not cartoonish Seuss-like characters. This is not an attack on Proton or his work. His examples are good at demonstrating various features. Unfortunately, at least with the 8.x manuals, these examples are overused, and end up making the application look like this is all it can do. Most people getting into 3D have stars in their eyes and want to do King Kong, or Lord of The Rings type stuff. This is the type of material that should really be showcased like it is in the brochures & website. This shoudl also be prevailent in the manuals and demos.

Absolute agreement. It's the high end, the sexy end, the end that's associated with movies, with high-end telly, the bits that people actually become animators to do. It's not fan-service, it's giving people the leg-up they really want.

Pavlov
08-17-2006, 11:34 AM
As long as you practise safe hex.


Ehnanced High ROTFL !

mjcrawford
08-17-2006, 11:57 AM
Absolute agreement. It's the high end, the sexy end, the end that's associated with movies, with high-end telly, the bits that people actually become animators to do. It's not fan-service, it's giving people the leg-up they really want.

:agree: oh great and powerful BOG, and Dave Jerrard you both speak wise words! :agree:

when I first got LW, I wanted to make photoreal Spaceships and other high end stuff, but every demo that came with 8 looked like a Jimmy Nutron wannabe at best!

oh mighty BOG and Dave Jerrard thank you for your inspired words!
:bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:

funny, you never see BOG and Dave Jerrard at the same place, at the same time... hm.....

SP00
08-17-2006, 12:08 PM
I'm looking at the LW9 Reborn magazine ad and I was wondering how much better it could look with an image like this one it.

http://www.scifi.com/battlestar/images/desktops/bsg_galactica_800.jpg

Some of the better stuff from the LW gallery will do too. Really, many of these images will sell the product.

Cesar Montero
08-17-2006, 12:25 PM
I'll be specific in what I will like to change:

+ Update the Lightwave gallery more often.

Basically to take more care about this gallery.
Right now I can see for example Otacon's Christmass spheres at the "Animals & Creatures" section. It is a great piece, but it should be in another section!

Bog
08-17-2006, 12:35 PM
http://www.scifi.com/battlestar/images/desktops/bsg_galactica_800.jpg

Gentlebeings, I shall be in my bunk. Yes, LW is still being used for spaceships - but they're the prettiest darn spaceships in the Black.

God, I'd love to work on that... chucking some Vipers around and doing the thing with the Top Gun but imperfect camera work... ooooh.... crikey.... dribble.

MJ, you'll scare the womenfolk. Calm yourself ;) Anyway, it was Dave who had the Words of Sense, I just hit the Quote Button. But yes, it's true. He and I have never been seen in the same place. That's because I live in England and he lives in America. I'm big but not *that* big!

archiea
08-17-2006, 01:12 PM
I'm looking at the LW9 Reborn magazine ad and I was wondering how much better it could look with an image like this one it.

http://www.scifi.com/battlestar/images/desktops/bsg_galactica_800.jpg

Some of the better stuff from the LW gallery will do too. Really, many of these images will sell the product.

I can't wait to see how that space ship will look after its updated with the new shader models!!! get away from the B-5 phong shading look that many LW ships have.. :thumbsup:

Bog
08-17-2006, 01:30 PM
"They're targetting the Oren-Nayer!"

"Have squadron Lambert support them, and bring the Antti-Omega 13 online!"

Sorry, couldn't resist....

Dave Jerrard
08-17-2006, 01:31 PM
But yes, it's true. He and I have never been seen in the same place. That's because I live in England and he lives in America. I'm big but not *that* big!But I was born in London. The one in Canada though. :)


He Who Has Never Been To The Other Seven Londons.

Bog
08-17-2006, 01:32 PM
I thought we agreed not to discuss our powers in public?

(Zing!)

SP00
08-17-2006, 01:46 PM
If NT were to tackle the game design market. They could easily use images from Shadow Of The Colossus as a good selling point.

http://www.dyingduck.com/sotc/3dwa69.jpg

mjcrawford
08-17-2006, 01:50 PM
interesting concept, slighly off topic.. Lightwave already has a physics engine, we have layout, and modeler, add a 3rd app to the package.. the Lightwave game engine! NT could make a killing offering the advanced 3d tools it already does coupled with a fully funcitional engine that indie devolopers could use!

mjcrawford
08-17-2006, 01:51 PM
I thought we agreed not to discuss our powers in public?

(Zing!)

I knew it! I was right all along! :boogiedow

SP00
08-17-2006, 01:53 PM
PIM is on the way to the market, so that will offer the game develop capabilities, but I guess I was more aiming towards artists that want to design 3D model assest and animation for video games. This is were the NT can package a non-commercial version of LW into all game/level editors. Such as the Unreal level editor. I just have to say that the MOD community for videogames is pretty big and NT can train those potential designers with a free non-commercial version.

Dave Jerrard
08-17-2006, 02:15 PM
I thought we agreed not to discuss our powers in public?

(Zing!)
Watch out! Have you heard what I did to the last person that zinged me?


He Who Figures She'll Chime In Any Time Now.

GandB
08-17-2006, 02:35 PM
PIM is on the way to the market, so that will offer the game develop capabilities, but I guess I was more aiming towards artists that want to design 3D model assest and animation for video games. This is were the NT can package a non-commercial version of LW into all game/level editors. Such as the Unreal level editor. I just have to say that the MOD community for videogames is pretty big and NT can train those potential designers with a free non-commercial version.

I was seriously (no pun intended) starting to wonder if people were going to realize the kind of market there could be in Game Development, especially Indy Game Development.

-Keith

Paul Brunson
08-17-2006, 02:37 PM
I've followed this thread with interest for a while now.

I think some really good suggestions have been made. And I'm sure Newtek is watching and is doing the best they can to incorporate the valuable feedback/suggestions present in many of the posts.

I've been using Lightwave most of my life. Yes, I'm young, 26. I started with lightwave at age 12 in the days when it had a brown interface and was only part of the Video Toaster. I've been playing with it ever since, and now it brings in much of my income. You could say that I have a vested interest in seeing Newtek succeed.

That said I'm not here to give a suggestion on what Newtek can do better. I think that's been adequately covered and I second many of the suggestions. I hope Newtek is able to achieve as many as possible with the resources they have.

My comments lie with the community. First Lightwave has a great community, don't get me wrong. But I do notice a lot of negative post and remarks, more than I used to see. I'm amazed Newtek is able to keep as upbeat as they are with the constant belittling that takes place. Now granted some constructive critisicm is always needed and has its place. But personally if I were in Newtek's shoes I think what I could use is more support and encouragement. Several here have mentioned to Newtek that they are willing to help.

My question to the community is: Why do we need Newtek's permission to help?. We have a huge discussion going here on what Newtek can do better. What can we do better? Are there things the community could do that would help better the Product? More than the community currently does? Perhaps we need a seperate thread "How can the community better help Newtek?".

For example www.flay.com has probably done more for Newtek than www.newtek.com has. Flay started as a user based effort.

What I'm trying to say is perhaps we should direct our individual and cummulative efforts (this discussion) at what we can be doing to get Newtek out there. Don't get me wrong I think this discussion has been productive and as I said above some good advise for Newtek is here. But I personally only need to be told so many times the things I need to do better. After that what I really need is help doing them.

mjcrawford
08-17-2006, 02:52 PM
PIM is on the way to the market, so that will offer the game develop capabilities, but I guess I was more aiming towards artists that want to design 3D model assest and animation for video games. This is were the NT can package a non-commercial version of LW into all game/level editors. Such as the Unreal level editor. I just have to say that the MOD community for videogames is pretty big and NT can train those potential designers with a free non-commercial version.


um... what is PIM?

SP00
08-17-2006, 02:55 PM
I like the idea of a new thread - How can the community better help Newtek? How about someone setting it up?

mjcrawford
08-17-2006, 02:55 PM
I was seriously (no pun intended) starting to wonder if people were going to realize the kind of market there could be in Game Development, especially Indy Game Development.

-Keith

I agree! that is why I am in school right now! I am taking 3d and Game design becasue my goal is to be an indy game devolper.. in fact we have about 3 solid concepts we are working on right now.. but on thing that sucks is that there just is not a 'A' level game engine for the indys that cannot fork over $500k per seat! sure there is Torque, but its potential is very limited. QuakeIII is open source, but it is 9 year old technology.. games powered by Lightwave could be a megga gold mine for NT!

SP00
08-17-2006, 03:12 PM
PIM info - http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?t=248382&page=1&pp=15

Edit: Actually, Here is the website - http://www.pimtools.be/

mjcrawford
08-17-2006, 04:10 PM
PIM info - http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?t=248382&page=1&pp=15

Edit: Actually, Here is the website - http://www.pimtools.be/

interesting, but they do not give a lot of detail, if the engine is capable of creating a compleate game and not just a little mini-game if bundled with LW it could be a powerful marketing tool... but everything I saw while looking good, seamed rather simplistic.

ireneking
08-17-2006, 04:14 PM
That I didn't know. I'm off to email... er... quite a few people...

*edit* Pogging Photoshop is companion upgrade material?!?!?!?!!!!

*witter*

If you own ANY of the following products, you qualify for our companion upgrade!

Softimage XSI, Maya, Cinema 4D XL, Modo, After Effects, Photoshop, Shake, Digital Fusion, 3D Studio v. 4.0, 3D Studio Max, Electric Image, Strata Studio Pro, Autocad, Mirai, Animation Master, Form Z, Rhino, Pro-E (Pro Engineer), SolidWorks or AutoCAD LT.

:-)

tyrot
08-17-2006, 05:15 PM
dear bog

thanks for replying. I will get back those issues later.. I m not saying Siggraph is dead but the way of NT presenting LW is dead. It is not a REBORN. It is SAME ..

Today i was driving and listening some old marketing audio cds. The 22 Immutable Laws of Marketing from jack trout...Al Ries
Law of category... I think...LW's marketing having difficulties in that place... good modeler? renderer? animation package..? for TVs..for emmy awards...for midsize companies..for one man freelancer...for all??..you can say FOR all. But everyone knows it cant be for all.

PIM is the NEW DAWN of NET. It will clash everything every idea. Does NT marketing aware of that? IF i had powers (like dear bog) i would use it on Enki and force him to work for only Lightwave just like FPRIME. Because we ALL will be different phase of business. Bog you said you think ways of making money. I m seeing highways with PIM.
In terms of business in terms of possibilities PIM will SURPASS everything written for Lightwave. Fprime is a previewer and renderer...but PIM is a BUSINESS PLAN itself. PIM will make US RICH.
I wouldnt sleep i wouldnt let anyone to sleep. PIM will come for Lightwave and ENKI will be godlike programmer...NET will be shaken..Flash will be wounded...we will REDEFINE the presentations ...

SO THERE IS A NEW CATEGORY overhere. PIM just like FPRIME can help LW to BUILD a NEW category. It is not Enki's job it is NT's marketing job to realize the possiblities and endorse them...

That is the reason i m here. THe devoters. the 3rd party's love for Lightwave and their visions. We are lucky cuz we have them. We dont have superstars like Seneca or Rick Baker...

That point i feel still so bad...Dont hate me...I love our evangelist they are great teachers...great guys..But i HAVE the FEAR that Their ART and their faces and even their voices has amazingly attached to Lightwave's marketing face.

IT is REBORN..Well it is ..But i see the same things...just additions...and same face..So what is REBORN.. IT wasnt DEAD at all.. Or was it? Pictrix didnt let it die Viktor said hey i m here....Enki says..you didnt see anything yet....So what was Dead? Us?...No...

New ideas..new brains..new Lightwave talents needed. The thing is i m not getting paid..you are not getting paid..I realized i m thinking more Newtek's marketing than my own company's marketing. Why? I dont know why...

3dbuzz created a black hole and sucked many youngsters within and directed them either MAYA or MAX. So if you call our tactics evangelistic..i call 3dbuzz Christ himself...So when there is Jesus himself walking around noone cares about evangelists...

Last thing...some evangelist art's concieved by Lightwave's art. Because they are OVERUSED...and OLD. In the AGE of ZBRUSH .. MUDBOX..gigapolygons..that art was NOT impressive and is Triple times is not impressive anymore.

Please even Werner's chicks are getting old. Remove that art from Lightwave's page....Look at the Baker's Face in front page..and Look at the chick in LW's page.. Look at the things on Zbrush .. mudbox...or even XSI.. Please...Cant you see the same WAVE over and over again..throughout years. I am getting emails from fellow wavers that ..they cant talk here because they cant...because of probably some fear of somethings..... but they share the points we all cry out here..

I hope werner or others dont take it as a personal attack. NO...NO NO.. I SHOULD say it...now... I will write it to directly mr. Plant.

DEAR JIM PLANT

"Dear sir..i Love and use Lightwave. I have 100 percent faith in programming team...You cleaned the old brought the new ones. They didnt slow the process they didnt show any weak points..they PROVED their commitment.. and they ..especially MR. Roth with his honest letters gave us a direction...Our support for them will Continue.

But sir..you marketing team is the real problem. I love proton. He is one of the greatest waver who walks on this planet. But sir. even his presentation and art got old. Sir everyone is asking WHAT CAN LIGHTWAVE DO? because PROTON's art or same marketing art is everywhere..in every page...in every forum. THis is NOT lightwave Sir. This is SAMEMARKETINGWAVE sir. This is even PROTONWAVE sir. THIS IS NOT REBORN. THIS IS BORNDEAD sir. All those efforts of Mr.Roth can go vain if you dont spot and fix the leak..

They were serving good and well..They were honest to build better Lightwave ..But sir..THEY HAVE FAILED. THE BALANCE HAS BEEN DESTROYED. Lightwave' s ART not EXIST anymore. THEIR ART ..THEIR words are here to prevail. NOONE was hating Lightwave when they leave they were hating Marketing TEAm. I didnt get it Years ago but i do get it now.. They OWN lightwave. SO you have a team who acts OVER lightwave sir.. THEY DONT OWN lightwave. You may overlook within the company but outside everyone is having same unhappy face sir.

And Sir..i m getting emails..from some very fellow lightwavers who cant write here. Why? Because they DONT want to get banned..or get Marketing's department Wrath upon them. Sir. This is YOUR company. How come a Lightwaver CAN have the FEAR of MARKETING DEPARTMENT..I call it weird.. They can call me Lunatic Fanboy..I was sir..I was even blind. The words when Leigh Left...when others left ...weresame sir...THe emails i read ... I cant hold it any longer sir. I can be banned. It is ok...It doesnt change my business and my purchases but sir you have a company.. And we are Lightwave Users. We are sleeping and waking up with lightwave.. We are defending..making money with it. We RESPECT our and your business. It was my HONEST idea sir..Please do something..Close that door..Call them and really ask them sir.. "what the heck these people talking about..WHY do you keep doing same shows..Where is the Flashy Webpage." If their answers satisfy you with their answers .everything will be great then..i m wrong and we are wrong. But if those answers dont satisfy you...then...

YOUR users WERE and WILL BE YOUR greatest marketing weapon sir...and we are ready do donate...our time..our webpages..our money...our commitment...our words...songs...arts...videos...whatever you need...I call it Lightwaving......"

Ok ...BEST for all of you.

Pavlov
08-17-2006, 05:42 PM
Irene: is Autocad LT included ? If not, why dont you add Autcad LT to the list as suggested ? There are many, many thousand of Acad LT around, and most studios will need 3D capabilities soon.

Paolo

Bog
08-17-2006, 06:11 PM
Tyrot: bring you passion to the demos in San Diego next year.

Let's do this right. Let's bring it home, bring it to the animators, bring it to the line-animals who are our industry.

I have to say - Andy Bishop and the other demo artists, I have *nothing* but respect for. They work 'til they bleed. Andy has made LightWave his life since before I got into this game, and you can only do that by being older than me. He has The Knowledge of this, and as well as always loving seeing him there (bloody nice bloke), I have uber-respect for him.

But I want to bring *more* working animators to the party. So come on, kids - put your money where your mouse is. We've got a year. Let's put a spectacle togther for San Diego.

Chuck
08-17-2006, 06:36 PM
Tyrot:

Anyone claiming that they are afraid they'll get banned for telling our marketing staff what they ought to be doing differently should just read this thread and reflect that nobody got banned. If that really isn't enough we can post about a thousand links to other threads and posts where folks had something to say and pulled no punches saying it. If that's not enough, I just give up - obviously they have some reason other than reality to be saying such things, and in the end what they are saying speaks strictly to their own character, and no one else's.

If you are getting such emails it is beyond me what is motivating them because frankly no other vendor shows the kind of tolerance that we do in our forums. We have our limits but that's in the realm of where people have moved to making character attacks or where they are clearly here to market competing products; and the relatively few bans or time-outs we've had to do have pretty much all been users who made a habit of making personal attacks, whatever else they might have had to say.

I've already stated much earlier in the thread that there are in fact major staffing and operational changes in progress in LightWave marketing, just as there have been in development. Please hear this - what you are asking for was already underway before you asked for it. A look at the v9 brochures, packaging and marketing materials would show you that none of the material you are complaining about was used in any of them. And while we do have a lot of images from the [8] series re-used in the v9 manual, plans are to replace those throughout the cycle as the manual is updated. The outdated material on the web page will be attended to as we get new marketing staff aboard to attend to it. And so on. It's a construction process, just as rebuilding the development team has been, and just as v9.0 is a step along the way in our complete rebuilding of the application.

DaveLEWIS
08-17-2006, 11:47 PM
Hi,

William's abilities and character.........hhmmm,

Abilities:>>>>>.....Top Lightwaver.....Professional.....Community leader.....

Character:>>>>>.....Friendly.....Aproachable.....Shareing nature.....

All...Good

DaveLEWIS

Phil
08-18-2006, 02:29 AM
I don't think this is progressing much further now. I'm hoping that NewTek find the criticism to be constructive. I would hope that they have sat down, looked at what they did at each trade show over the last couple of years and tried, really tried, to see what they did wrong.

Most people have been making the same general observations throughout this thread. If NewTek are honest with themselves (internally - no need for a public confessional), they probably see the majority of the points raised are entirely true, and have been for a while now.

The dev team have started to prove themselves with 9.0. I'm just hoping that we won't have to wait until SIGGRAPH 07 to find out what the new marketing team is capable of. Getting a demo out before the end of this month would be at least a drop in the ocean.

Wickster
08-18-2006, 02:39 AM
Irene: is Autocad LT included ? If not, why dont you add Autcad LT to the list as suggested ? There are many, many thousand of Acad LT around, and most studios will need 3D capabilities soon.

Paolo
Plus ACAD LT isn't really cheap either...cost me a couple hundred getting that for me wife...which she doesn't really use anymore. :mad:

colkai
08-18-2006, 02:54 AM
Tyrot,
Poor reflection on Will and all his hard work.
Bear in mind, Will now works at DAVE school, I'd wager a heck of a lot of what he does is in his own time.

Newtek have been very fair in allowing people to say what they think here, indeed, at times, it can bite them back hard. I personally have a lower tolerance level so I'd say kudos to all at Newtek for allowing such passionate debates.

My take on your writing, I am cutting you one heck of a lot of slack because, as can be read from the structure of the writing, English is not your first language. That being the case, a lot can get garbled / lost in translation and I know from other posts your are a guy who is passionate about LW. :)

I think, (and lets be honest here), a lot of folks are hoping there will be a revamp and 'turn-around' of both marketing and coding win LW. It comes as no surprise reading Chucks response that it was already in motion.

I think it is still to easy to forget, we have a new Newtek now, we are at the start of the LW9 cycle. It is logical to assume, given the activity of Newtek staff here, that as the package itself grows and develops, the departments alongside such as marketing will also develop.
Yes, they have to, but hey, let's not kid ourselves here, the folks at Newtek are fully aware of this. What IS depressing is the tirades which suggest Newtek aren't listening, or worse, refuse to, that's just pot-stirring.

I have, on occasion, been called, at best, naive, however, such is my faith in the ablilty for Newtek to deliver us a new product and all that entails that I had placed my order for LW9 a full year ago.
It's a slow process, not without it's tumbling blocks, but knowing how these things work personally, I'm prepared to resever my final judgement until Newtek say "This is the final patch we are issuing for LW9".

Then I'll take a good look and ask, was my 300 quid upgrade worth it?

To be honest, so far, I'd say I've got myself a bargain. :)

When it comes to marketing at shows, Bog has it down solid, join in, offer to do that blistering demo you think can be done for LW.
After all, how good would it be for Newtek to be able to say, their users are the ones who wanted to show how much they enjoy using LW and it's power. There's a great marketing tactic right there.
Not an in-house demo, but users getting up and showing real world examples, indeed, queuing up to do so. Yup, I'd not say no to that sort of exposure if it were my product.

What's more, they are willing to do it for free? Can't argue with THAT price! :p :D

tyrot
08-18-2006, 05:44 AM
dear colkai

I dont want to show any disrespect to Proton. I read his articles..i read his tips..watched his tutorials..followed his technics.. His knowledge and his sharing abilities are beyond anyone i know. But i have to see the same thing from different angle. That was my starting point. I am a waver. I m in this community. So proton's works were always introductional pieces for me.

The only point i wanted to emphasize that his work and his art cant show the real quality of Lightwaving art..I still have greatest respect him as a teacher and sharer of his vast knowledge. But i dont have to accept his work in everywhere Lightwave related. I want to see others works...More detailed works.More daring works...more inspiring works...the works that affect people..That was my humble point with my humble english...I just want to see different fellas going around talking about Lightwave, showing their works...amaze people...get attention...get questions...That s all. Not only closed circuit of Lightwavers have to get the all fame and shine upon them.

Because competition uses names. We use Slogans.
Look at silo's webpage..James Edwards' name shining overthere. Modo is doing the same thing i mentioned earlier. SO it is like battle of big names. We have big names...Lets answer them with their own marketing tactics.

We have HowardM. He claimed in SpinQuad that he was making so much more faster some effects with Lightwave than Maya..Probably he would show WONDERS with windpath. So he may take a front seat and show something ..even in siggraph. Because he can be a superstar of Lightwave's dynamics. You can name others. There are many here.


I read Chuck's reply and i hope they deliver what they claim here.

Best..

Kuzey
08-18-2006, 07:55 AM
Hey Chuck,

Is it possible to get my hands on a good sized .jpg of the new LW9 graphics so I can play around and maybe make a sample or two??

All the best,

Kuzey

parm
08-18-2006, 08:03 AM
I've just been to the Apple Store on Regent Street. To have a look and play with all the new hardware. And do you know what. They haven't got any 3d apps, installed on any of their machines.

Wouldn't it be a good idea, to make sure that all the Apple stores around the world, had at least one copy of Lightwave 9 installed on a machine. In time for the Universal Binary release.

If you've never been to a Apple store, it's quite an experience. Unlike most other computer stores. The customer is invited to browse and play with the toys on display at leisure. They also have workshops (http://www.apple.com/uk/retail/theatre/) where a demonstrator shows off features of the OS and apps that work on the Mac, to a seated audience. A great opportunity to plug LW on the Mac. These stores get millions of visitors.

SP00
08-18-2006, 08:11 AM
Especially on their new Quad Xeon Mac Pro machines aimed at users like us.

Phil
08-18-2006, 10:54 AM
So...my LW 9 disks just arrived. I'm amazed to find that neither disk has been used to show off LW's capabilities.

There's a whole DVD in this package and 700 MB of space has gone begging. You could have thrown some really snazzy marketing material on there - you *do* include the Vue marketing fluff, after all. I have Vue, but never really looked at it - the video makes me want to :) That should tell you something.

700 MB could have been used to provide a really cracking video demonstration of LW's capabilities. It would also mean that *every* customer would be better able to show this to anyone who stood still long enough. An opportunity missed.

bluerider
08-18-2006, 11:03 AM
tyrot quotes= because PROTON's art or same marketing art is everywhere..
in every page...in every forum. THis is NOT lightwave Sir. This is
SAMEMARKETINGWAVE sir. This is even PROTONWAVE sir. THIS IS NOT
REBORN. THIS IS BORNDEAD sir. All those efforts of Mr.Roth can go vain
if you dont spot and fix the leak..
=========

Hello tyrot thanks for your passionate contribution to the forum and
suggestions. Bear in mind suggesting someone’s artwork is dead or
stillborn is pretty insensitive. I would be more than curious to see
your contribution to the 3d art forum. Perhaps you can contribute
and help to promote and transfer your passion into posting your own
art. The richness of your location I'm sure should provide a wealth
of cultural influenances in your work regarding your geographical
proximity to the cradle of civilization.

From the legacy of Persian, Babylonian, Greek, Roman, Byzantium
and Ottoman influenances that have taken place in your location.
Also the political reforms of the Great Mustafa Kemal Ataturk, you
have a cultural wealth that can, I am sure deluge us with much
to savor in your use of LightWave.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

tyrot quotes=What I see from LW marketing department singing
LALALA songs and posing and showing their pathetic quality works
as example of LW. drinking beer, having fun, loving each other’s
amazing performance..
==========

Actually to be honest, every company’s employees who work hard
deserve fun time. Proton I certainly appears to work around the
clock and his work ethic is usual in that, the guy produces work
ALL the time. I'm jealous; I suffer from the problem of needing
sleep. The amount of forum posts he addresses and work he does
in tutorials and still manages to produce his own artwork in copious
amounts, plus teach in the DAVE school. If his art is stillborn there
isn't much hope for the rest of us.

Bear in mind, artwork that he produces he advertises himself, through
his own efforts. The publication and show casing of his work is with
numerous other companies has been their decision. To state its
artistically inferior work doesn't just offend the artist but annoys
the numerous other third parties that choose to use his work.

If the issue may be dislike of approach that is a particular stylization.
Then rather than dismiss a category of the arts compare it within
other examples of the "genre". If your preference is photo realism
then its was a great contrast to Have Andy Bishop there to show
his companies example of the Range Rover series or the visual
effects used in numerous TV documentaries and commercials. To
have artists demonstrating at a main stage rather than a "demo"
artists loading in somebody else’s work surely is plus.

The suggestion made by BOG is a great idea, because he suggests
the user being proactive in regard to other users contribution of
artwork etc.

I hope this inspires you to display your art to a medium where your
imagination is your only limitation. :)

Cesar Montero
08-18-2006, 12:06 PM
When I started Lightwave, I only had at hand the video tutorials, most of them done by proton. I think many people do the same when they start. Then i knew Spinquad, and I have been learning a lot from the place. He has been of great help!!

The problem I see in trying to promote more great artist, is that they are more loyal to their work and results, than to a program or tool. Using great artists as superstars can be a double edge sword. If for a reason, that person doesn't like a feature in LightWave, many users will follow him. If he wants a feature, and the team doesn't give it to him, he could get mad. This would cause conflict between programmers and artists on spotlight. It would be a debate of WHO should dictate how Lightwave works. Certainly giving power to artists is a good idea ONLY if it can be controlled, since many minds think better than a single mind under spotlights.

tyrot
08-18-2006, 12:21 PM
dear bluerider

i know i sound insensitive. I know i do. I hate myself when i m writing those posts trust me. I dont like to tell people those words...

Years after years i was waiting for changes...radical changes...Now we got a clear promise we will wait..

I know you want to see contribution from me..I cant do it in this year. I m getting rich with making buildings,blocks summer houses etc etc. I dont have anything to show yet. But i chose this way because i want to really do something extraordinary with the things i saw everyday. I m so happy that you are aware of the natural and ancient treasures of anatolia. That is my promise after getting rich and making all those jobs i will deliver really crazy art work..

All i can do right now is to make stupid songs at least for showing how wonderful to work with Lightwave.

But in terms of partying. I think different. I dont think there is so much things for anyone to party around. If something happens extraordinary (if they sell 100 licenses to ILM or somewhere ) then they should celebrate. Right now all they have to think even on sundays how to find their base and put Lightwave back to where it was... (i will not talk about the subject anymore...it is not my company. I wish them just and everytime...

BEST

colkai
08-18-2006, 12:54 PM
Sometimes, you party simply because you deserve a break and frankly, from things on here lately, Newtek sure ain't being cut a break by anyone.

Why they should have to justify their right to have fun and chat with fellow wavers who also like to have fun escapes me.

After a cr*p week at work, regardless of how much more work I face to complete a task, I allow myself some fun. Nobody, but nobody, has the right to say I shouldn't.

Frankly, if I ever meet up with Chuck and Will, I'd ensure that beer did flow and party times were had. Why? 'caue I respect them and would just enjoy hanging out.

Sometimes, a party is just a party. Next thing you know, the users here will be wanting to know what time the team go to bed and chastising them for not getting enough early nights so they are fresh to work on the new code.


Must be me gettin' old, 'cause things just seem to be getting weirder by the day.

Phil
08-18-2006, 01:09 PM
Sometimes, you party simply because you deserve a break and frankly, from things on here lately, Newtek sure ain't being cut a break by anyone.

I would hope that most of this would be noted as constructive criticism - at least, that's what I have been aiming to provide; many others seem to be doing the same thing. ;)


Sometimes, a party is just a party. Next thing you know, the users here will be wanting to know what time the team go to bed and chastising them for not getting enough early nights so they are fresh to work on the new code.

Don't tempt me :D I'm still hoping for the moon on a stick during the 9.x series.


Must be me gettin' old, 'cause things just seem to be getting weirder by the day.

It's all that partygoing - it takes its toll, doesn't it?

colkai
08-18-2006, 01:43 PM
I would hope that most of this would be noted as constructive criticism - at least, that's what I have been aiming to provide; many others seem to be doing the same thing. ;)

Sorry Phil, should have made it clear that "here" meant in the forums in general, what can I tell ya, it's Friday night, there's no drink in the house. :help: ;)

ireneking
08-18-2006, 03:06 PM
Irene: is Autocad LT included ? If not, why dont you add Autcad LT to the list as suggested ? There are many, many thousand of Acad LT around, and most studios will need 3D capabilities soon.

Paolo

AutoCAD LT has been added to the list! :-)

Ivan D. Young
08-18-2006, 04:26 PM
I think that worrying about Members of Newtek partying at a show is counterproductive. This is the reason why. Every convention that
Newtek has a presence at these functions serve in many ways as a method to interact with the users, both in a fun way and as a way to get feedback. I know that saying this sounds trite, cause it is a party, but yes these things are necessary. When you Eat, Sleep, Breathe, and Live Lightwave 24 hours a day, at some point you have to have dinner and talk about Lightwave. You go have a beer and talk about Lightwave. I think that Newtek spends alot of time working on this subject. I also want to say that I have seen Proton at conventions where he was just there, and before you know it, his Lightwave Evangelist hat comes out and he is promoting Lightwave. He converted a bunch of comic book artists, one time at a comic book convention to Lightwave on some one else's laptop. Proton does this because he wants to not because he has to! And I know everyone else I have met from Newtek have been the same. And working every day is great in concept, but bad in actual practice. People need time to recharge their bodies and minds. As they say "All things in moderation!" I think a few days off will help speed up lightwave improvement, not imped it.

Phil
08-18-2006, 04:32 PM
Heh. They can party all they want - just keep delivering upgrades (and point releases!) that match 9.0, as well as really sexy and jaw dropping presentations. In fact, I'd rather their passion really got hold of them and drove them to present staggeringly beautiful as well as technically challenging stuff :)

If we weren't all passionate users, 8.x would have seen most of us head for the hills!

Bog
08-18-2006, 05:06 PM
But in terms of partying. I think different. I dont think there is so much things for anyone to party around. If something happens extraordinary (if they sell 100 licenses to ILM or somewhere ) then they should celebrate. Right now all they have to think even on sundays how to find their base and put Lightwave back to where it was... (i will not talk about the subject anymore...it is not my company. I wish them just and everytime...

Dear gh0d in heaven. I don't even know where to begin. Aside from the fact that the NewTek folk I ran into at these parties were working every bit as hard at making everyone happy in the evenings as they had been all day....

But for goodness sake. I'm sat here in my LightWave 9 SIG Launch Party shirt right now. What, you think maybe they should have laid on a fast and a scourging of the flesh? That would'a drawn a crowd, you betcha.

Tyrot, really. Take a few deep breaths, maybe have a sip of something restorative. Telling people they've got no right to party is... is... well, **** it it's half of why I left home in the first place! That's just poor form, really. I'm disappointed in you, mush.

Me? Big Props to that bubblesome funster Donetta and the rest of the gang for making it a complete blast. If using NewTek products hadn't made it relatively painless to fly to a foreign land, stay in a hotel and generally live it up for a week, I might sing a different song. But it did, so I do - and thank you :)

Nemoid
08-19-2006, 03:24 AM
Blaming Proton's work is one of the worse things i've read on these forums since i visit them.
You could say Proton's own style is a cartoon style and that the toon style doesn't always attract or amaze people during shows (I wouldn't say this neither 'cause, hey, all Pixar art is "toon" ).
The only thing i'd say is that , Proton is quite alone, in making vids, in offering all supporrt he can with his ideas, suggestions, and tips. part of his time is dedicated to DAVE school as a teacher, and so.. guess what ? he does all the best he can and more to provide Lw community all it needs.

So, perhaps the point to suggest Newtek could be : hire other people to help and support Proton in doing his fantastic job, maybe even people with a more realistic style, who knows.

Also, involving more Dave school in Lw shows could be a good addon. They make cool works both with live action + sfx and with all 3D movies, like XMen Dark tide.
and BTW, if possible using series as Battlestar galactica in Lw shows, with make of and more could be great as well. :thumbsup:

Kuzey
08-19-2006, 04:19 AM
I've just been to the Apple Store on Regent Street. To have a look and play with all the new hardware. And do you know what. They haven't got any 3d apps, installed on any of their machines.

Wouldn't it be a good idea, to make sure that all the Apple stores around the world, had at least one copy of Lightwave 9 installed on a machine. In time for the Universal Binary release.

If you've never been to a Apple store, it's quite an experience. Unlike most other computer stores. The customer is invited to browse and play with the toys on display at leisure. They also have workshops (http://www.apple.com/uk/retail/theatre/) where a demonstrator shows off features of the OS and apps that work on the Mac, to a seated audience. A great opportunity to plug LW on the Mac. These stores get millions of visitors.


I just like to take Parm's idea one step further :thumbsup:

How about when the LW9UB version is out make a deal with Apple to bundle the demo with all new computers sold or include the demo cd's in said bundles. I know when I buy a new computer I always check to see whats in the cd's/machines :thumbsup:

Kuzey

Kuzey
08-19-2006, 04:34 AM
As for Proton, the man is a living masterpiece :thumbsup:

Yes, he does a million things but most of that's pushing LW, be it interviews, Lw demos..live or videos, teaching others etc. it's all good....infact it's impressive.

What I would like to see Proton do is more character tutorials from start to finish, using the new features in the process. IT would be a great way to get those new to 3d or lightwave to see how it's done and how easy it can be.


Kuzey

jeremyhardin
08-19-2006, 10:35 AM
I just like to take Parm's idea one step further :thumbsup:

How about when the LW9UB version is out make a deal with Apple to bundle the demo with all new computers sold or include the demo cd's in said bundles. I know when I buy a new computer I always check to see whats in the cd's/machines :thumbsup:

Kuzey

A good idea as well. And on the topic of Apple Stores, perhaps more users should head over and present LW there. They are open to workshops like that. I just haven't gotten around to it and I am never sure how many people in my area would be interested in such a presentation.

Often they let users try their software on the new Macs as well. So users could make it their point to get LW on a few Macs at their local apple store.

I realize these suggestions are more in the users hands, but an idea is an idea. :thumbsup:

Matt
08-19-2006, 11:03 AM
I've just been to the Apple Store on Regent Street. To have a look and play with all the new hardware. And do you know what. They haven't got any 3d apps, installed on any of their machines.

Speaking of Apple and 3D apps, I have noticed that their performance pages for new machines no longer show LightWave in the benchmarks:

http://www.apple.com/macpro/performance.html

They used to:

jeremyhardin
08-19-2006, 11:14 AM
Speaking of Apple and 3D apps, I have noticed that their performance pages for new machines no longer show LightWave in the benchmarks:

http://www.apple.com/macpro/performance.html

They used to:

purely speculation, but maybe because LW isn't UB yet and wouldn't bench well on the mac pro?

i don't speak for parm, but I'm sure he would agree completely. call it a sixth sense, but i'm downright sure of it. as a matter of fact, i'll bet he'll be posting here any minute to agree. just you wait.
(ok just kidding. i edited the post after parm posted below me. :D hehe. ;) just messing around.)

parm
08-19-2006, 11:15 AM
Probably because it doesn't run so well under 'Rosetta' at the moment Matt.

It'll be back there once the universal binary is released, I'm sure :)

edit: Jeremy posted as I was typing. I'm up to 60 words in less than a day now

Phil
08-19-2006, 01:28 PM
Demoing would be good except you'll be stymied by the excessive watermarking and point limitations without the dongle drivers, dongle and license key :/ Unless you plan to install all of this on the instore machines and/or generate a new temporary key every time you pop in.....

Bog
08-19-2006, 04:15 PM
Demoing would be good except you'll be stymied by the excessive watermarking and point limitations without the dongle drivers, dongle and license key :/ Unless you plan to install all of this on the instore machines and/or generate a new temporary key every time you pop in.....

Detwork nongle. Letwork fondle. Fretwork spongle. Network dongle.

*waves a hand vaguely*

That kinda stuff. You know. Clever things.

With the button-pressing and the insanely knowledgeable tutors. Who only drink too much on Saturday nights.

Oh. Yes.

As you were.

Whee.

hazmat777
08-19-2006, 05:39 PM
Well, at the Apple store that I work at the "Reps" have installed "freeze" software on all the machines. It keeps the sales people from being able to install anything to help actually sell the machines. They auto-reset every time they are re-started to a pre-configured Apple-approved state (Tiger and nothing else). I would have put LW on the dual-proc G5 with the 30" screen a LONG time ago...:devil: