PDA

View Full Version : oddi, milkmaid, marketing SUPERSTAR, criticism



tyrot
08-11-2006, 06:50 AM
dear wavers...

Oddi will hate me cuz i m publishing his latest work against his will. He asked me not to put it online. But i couldnt feel ok for keeping it away from you.

First of all, i know him but i dont know him exactly. We met him officially when He destroyed my work with his ODDIAN way of writing years ago where we both working for same free project.

I asked "why did you make me so ashamed in front of team members, you know i m not just a character modeller"
He said " You are a talented non-character modeller but you should focus on something else, dont waste your time on characters..do trailers...music.."
I said "You could do it in PM"
He said " I would but i just want others to learn that you are suck unless you study anatomy and get those books start all over again. I hate people telling lies to you..and i hate getting good comments myself from public..i KNOW when i m suck..and i want people to tell me that.."

I was paralyzed..man..I hated him. But even his brutal way of slashing my work..i learned something so precious. I realized i was posting my work for daily masturbative process. "Show your work, get applause and then you feel happy but suck at the end. "

COnstructrive criticism is not the best way sometimes, because you may get WRONG criticism. People sometimes hide what they feel because of moderating issues, or public face issues. I was in IRC once and i realized people are talking like **** for eachother..Same guys were so OK and HAPPY LALALA for others work. But when they were in their place they are mocking with everyone. So ..Why not being doublefaced liar. Tell what you feel. Destroy if you feel like. You are showing your work ..and if you have guts to take responsibility ..defend your work.

this is how they teach in artschools i guess. I never went there but we in LAW school, do the same thing. We slash our friends to death..we were simply making our beloved friend to cry. Why? Well Life is HARSH and if we dont do it here, they will be shaken, destroyed, ashamed in front of judge in front of their clients and in front of whole court room. So ..Should we say? "Hey you do great. yes great..Woow I never saw such a nice defend. " No mate. We cant lie our friends. We should prepare them for wolves outthere. So that s what i call CONSTRUCTIVE criticism. Because YOU CAN DESTROY your FRIEND in to PIECES now, Well if he stays like this HE DESERVE this but if he raise up and collect himself and move forward he will be so much more CONSTRUCTED. Because i never saw a person constructed with just happy lalala songs. No .

SO for me Oddi constructed me with destroying me.

Unfortunately when he did that here, he banned for 7 days. Ok . But one thing although time to time i work with him professionally i know how uber talented he is. That s why i wanted to show his work and what kind of talent we are banning in order to CONCEAL the truth from ourselves.

so i think Oddi with his exceptional skills deserve abit more open minded approach even though he use exceptional language.

Because IMO YOU ARE BANNING NUMBER 1 SUPERSTAR for Lightwave for being honest in front of others....And if he goes to another software he will pull serious attention to that package. People are giving away free software for keeping artists like this.

Again .. I just wanted to share my feelings after seeing this masterpiece.

BEST

http://www.pixelwerks.be/pictures/meer_final.jpg

liquidpope
08-11-2006, 07:25 AM
Well, personally, I could care less.
Take that any way you want.

iconoclasty
08-11-2006, 07:28 AM
Wait, ODDity got banned? When?

DogBoy
08-11-2006, 07:34 AM
Wait, ODDity got banned? When?

I think this is a joke. Maybe it is the Vermeer painting, and not oDDitys actual work, that gave it away ;).

colkai
08-11-2006, 08:15 AM
Nope,
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/a/a8/Vermeer_-_The_Milkmaid.jpg
http://www.wga.hu/art/v/vermeer/02b/09milkm2.jpg

Just did a quick google search, for sure, this is not the original, gosh durn close mind.
Looks heavily retouched in PShop though, unless oDDity has found some very cool new shaders.

If he is banned for the week, well, we all know the guy can be rather abrasive, reagrdless of ones own personal "standpoint", it has to be remembered this is a community. If someone was overtly abrasive, I'd certainly ask them to alter the tone in any "establishment" of mine.

None of that however, takes anything whatsoever away from the level of work here, nothing at all. This is, if nought else, a superb effort which can show just what is achievable in LW.

edit: I'd like to see an untouched version, a 'grey OGL' and wires mind you, surely would be informative.

PS: Dogboy, you got a DVD heading your way, (apologies for the fubar'd areas on it - think my drive is acting up, or the last batch of DVD's are less than stellar).

T-Light
08-11-2006, 09:09 AM
Oddity's work in progress for this is here...
http://www.newtek.com/forums/showthread.php?t=54618
It shows most of the work from different angles, I don't think Oddity would use 'photoshop' to any great extent, but that's just what I've picked up rather than something I've read.

Has Oddity been banned for a week or is this something that happened a while back when he beat tyrot to within an inch of his sanity?

tyrot
08-11-2006, 10:01 AM
dear T-Light

it was ordinary oddi response then everything went wrong.

http://www.newtek.com/forums/showthread.php?t=53588

I mean somehow oddi reminds me abit Rooney abit Top Gear's Jeremy Clarkson.

but my points were

1- What must be the criticism we should use in a public forum

2- a guy who can produce this should be banned for sometime because he says his opinions honestly?

3- There are many evil mind guys in these forum constantly mocking with Newtek, Lightwave and some other things and still staying here? I think there is a slight problem.

BEST

colkai..i dont know...the level of photoshop usage...but if you look at CGtalk everything is photoshopped anyway. But i was asking same thing as you ...the opengl... he sent me this earlier..

Scazzino
08-11-2006, 10:26 AM
Looks fantastic!

The only thing that still jumps out at me as CG is that razor sharp vertical edge on the inside of the window frame...

He was only banned for a week and should be back shortly. Hopefully he'll tone it down just enough to continue to be helpful without being quite so abusive.

If something's bad, then say it's bad. That's fine, but there's really no need to personally insult the artist... ;)

iconoclasty
08-11-2006, 10:36 AM
I've always liked oDDity's different take on things in the forums. He has a very different personality than most around here and I think it adds to the color of the community. You could always count on him for a perfectly honest response. I was a little appauled to hear he was banned but after reading that thread... man. He got pretty harsh. This latest work proves how truly talented he is, but I'm not sure I can argue against the ban.

Scazzino
08-11-2006, 10:45 AM
I've always liked oDDity's different take on things in the forums. He has a very different personality than most around here and I think it adds to the color of the community. You could always count on him for a perfectly honest response. I was a little appauled to hear he was banned but after reading that thread... man. He got pretty harsh. This latest work proves how truly talented he is, but I'm not sure I can argue against the ban.

I agree. It's GREAT to hear what's WRONG with your work since that's really the only way to improve. BUT he crosses the line when he starts to throw around personal insults at someone who's obviously trying to learn.

I've personally gone through many VERY tough crits back at the Rhode Island School of Design (RISD). They could be brutal, but they always remained focused just on the work and what was wrong with the work and how it could be improved. They never personally insulted the artists.

If he can just keep the personal insults out of it, then I think he can retain his brutal honesty about the works in general. At least I hope he can because his input IS very valuable to this community.

:thumbsup:

hrgiger
08-11-2006, 11:09 AM
He did a good job on that piece. I'm glad he got banned, he deserved it. I don't have a problem with his method of critique at all, but the arrogance gets on my godd*mn nerves.

bobakabob
08-11-2006, 11:19 AM
I agree. It's GREAT to hear what's WRONG with your work since that's really the only way to improve. BUT he crosses the line when he starts to throw around personal insults at someone who's obviously trying to learn.

I've personally gone through many VERY tough crits back at the Rhode Island School of Design (RISD). They could be brutal, but they always remained focused just on the work and what was wrong with the work and how it could be improved. They never personally insulted the artists.

If he can just keep the personal insults out of it, then I think he can retain his brutal honesty about the works in general. At least I hope he can because his input IS very valuable to this community.

:thumbsup:

Oddity's very well balanced. He has a chip on both shoulders. :cursin:

Really, his vitriolic rants and hostility are completely out of order on a professional forum. Constructive criticism is an honest appraisal of positives as well as negatives. He might be an aspiring artist but he's no teacher.

You can tell someone directly what's good and bad without abuse. Good criticism means treating the poster and their work with respect. People should be free to post WIPs and new techniques here for intelligent appraisal without having their work gratuitously savaged. He's only doing it for the attention anyway.

tyrot
08-11-2006, 11:40 AM
dear boba

if a person sucks...how will you rephrase that...if he sucks he sucks. Noone is writing this here but everyone thinks like this.

i know what you mean... I know some will be happy because he is banned. but something is wrong. Banning means go and do something else in that time. And he is doing "this" in this time..

And i know he was defending LW in many occasions, inspired many guys to try out LW. I know because i m following his works for sometime. He constantly replies me with an email.and says
"stop saying i m good or great..I m suck i know it..I will be so much better..I would be so much better if there was one guy around and telling the words i told others"


I m not defending anyone but i know we are keeping our true feelings within our woows, great work, etc etc. forums are getting filled with mediocre artists and prototype messages. Oddi was not doing...it. I think LW can miss a very good artist which would atract the masses plus bring some truth into criticism business.

And i know how you talk in real life, you are not that much polite. Because life is hard. When a guy making stupid things..you are not telling "oh you ar edoing fine..just do this..even better" no you say "you are stupid..and lazy and not working and not producing something good just do not lose my time and btw you suck" you say this in real life but we are doing something so plastic here. It is like everybody made of glass, fragile unearthly beings and very sensitive. why? Because of some stupid looking polygon? WHat happens if it does suck..Do something better than instead of whining and crying...or dont post anything.

I saw another day a render in another forum a guy was making 2 meters high table and chair, totally wrong measures..noone is noticing or even not telling .The fella will make this business like that if noone tells him. But people putting him in front page telling how cool the light is. Man 2 meter high chair? where is your eye? forums are full of this type of things but we keep ignore it or lying them.

Sorry but i was in courtrooms and as well as in maya groups, different companies, directing people for tv, NOONE is POLITE out there. Noone is blowing you. They are tearing you down.may be i was in wrong side of the town. But they look at you in the eye and say

"you are suck"

BEST

Para
08-11-2006, 12:00 PM
I agree with you here, I hate that "OMG THIS IS THE GREATEST I WANT TO MARRY YOU FIVE STARS OMFG YOU WILL THE PRESIDENT OF MARS WHEN WE CONQUER IT WITH OUR MERRY BANDWAGON!!!!!!!!111!!1!11+1=2" a lot of people spit out. If you suck, then you suck. If you're told for example that your car modeling sucks, then it should be very god **** obvious what you should try to improve on instead of PM'ing the mods for harrasment from another member.

...personally that's the reason I never give crits on public forums. No one will ever actually notice them since one good crit is easily lost in between the crapload of "OMG RULES" posts.


EDIT: I also dislike profanity filters which go to far.

Cageman
08-11-2006, 12:56 PM
I would say that if you post something that really sucks in the Finished work gallery, it deserves a little more harsh wording, maybe. But in a WIP-forum where a user is trying to learn something is totaly different. I can't improve anything if I don't know what is wrong. Anytime I ask a fellow co-worker about something, I don't get a harsh comment like: That sucks... and then no information or hint to which direction I should go to improve the result.

There seems to be a distinct difference between people that are used to work in teams, and people that are more solo-artists. This usually result in better, more inspired communication between the "team-people" than the "solo-people".

EDIT: ODDity is a great artist in many ways, I don't think anyone can say anything else. But the fact is, if you are looking for work at a studio, the attitude and general behaviour is of great importance. If ODDity's somewhat harsh and personal behavior on this forum is a reflection of how he behaves in the real world, I for one would not like to have him as a co-worker.

lilrayray77
08-11-2006, 01:31 PM
You cant just say one's peice just "sucks". It is all relative to there experience. If I had just started working with lightwave and created a really poor looking animal, it wouls still be good considering that I had only been using lightwave for that small margin of time. This is how i look at it. What is really good for begginers is not so good or even terrible for pro's. My 2cents.

umstitch
08-11-2006, 01:58 PM
thankfully it doesnt happen very often, but when it does, after a short amount of time, there is restitution in some minor way.

and remember a little skill goes a long way, particulary with lightwave


:goodluck:

Para
08-11-2006, 03:32 PM
You cant just say one's peice just "sucks". It is all relative to there experience. If I had just started working with lightwave and created a really poor looking animal, it wouls still be good considering that I had only been using lightwave for that small margin of time. This is how i look at it. What is really good for begginers is not so good or even terrible for pro's. My 2cents.

The way people are currently dealing with this issue results in a whole bunch of kids who think that they are "l33t h4x0r" 3D artists because they found out how to import Poser's standard human model to another program. Sure you can say that something looks nice but don't go praising if there really isn't need for that. Everything doesn't just suck or rock, there's also such adjectives as bland, nice, good, average, and subpar. Extend your vocabulary and think what you type.

ItsPete
08-11-2006, 04:03 PM
>>may be i was in wrong side of the town

yes sir. i believe you were. there are good people out there who aren't only after their own gain.

nothing to do with oddi btw... just hate that people think they have to fight so hard to get ahead. and for what?

meatycheesyboy
08-11-2006, 04:14 PM
If you view anyone's public profile, you can choose to ignore anyone's posts. Perhaps this should be done more often in the future.

Scazzino
08-11-2006, 04:23 PM
If you view anyone's public profile, you can choose to ignore anyone's posts. Perhaps this should be done more often in the future.

Cool, I didn't know you could do that... It works like a charm ;)

bobakabob
08-11-2006, 04:33 PM
You cant just say one's peice just "sucks". It is all relative to there experience. If I had just started working with lightwave and created a really poor looking animal, it wouls still be good considering that I had only been using lightwave for that small margin of time. This is how i look at it. What is really good for begginers is not so good or even terrible for pro's. My 2cents.

Excellent point. Constructive honest direct criticism is not the same thing as ranting. This forum won't be worth visiting if it degenerates into an adolescent hissy fit. Interesting how every thread he visits is hijacked into a discussion about his good self.

Tyrot, I'm surprised you bothered starting this thread. Would he do the same for you? Myself, I'm astounded I wasted 3 minutes replying. :D

Sarford
08-11-2006, 04:39 PM
I agree totaly with Tyrot and Para. If you wanna work in the business, you better get a thicker skin.

People shoudn't take critique on their work as a personal insult. If someone says it sucks big time doesn't mean you suck, just your work does.

And don't come with the argument that 'it sucks big time' isn't constructive critisism. It is, it tells you your image is not up to par, don't expect a tutorial with every comment someone makes.

There is too much sweet talk to mediocre work, these people deserve more!

ps: I too am guilty of sweet talk every now and then, afraid of hurting the person, but after such a post I always feel kind of not realy helping that person getting better...

DragonFist
08-11-2006, 04:47 PM
Having been the poster of the work that Oddity "criticized", I have to put in my two cents here.

I am completely new to character modeling and animation. I had hit a wall that I was not getting past easily on my own and asked the community for some help. Information on HOW to improve my work. What I got was statements like I "lack the most basic element of any artist" and that it wasn't worth giving me a tutorial because "the wise don't need them and fools don't heed them".

Personally, doesn't bother me very much. But I have seen Oddity do this to several new artists and, whether effective or not, it serves no other purpose than to crush the new artists.

I am glad he got banned. However, more important to me is the message that this kind of behavior is unacceptable.

To tell me what is wrong with my work is very useful. ****, it is exactly what I wanted. What the **** am I doing wrong and how can I improve it? But don't stand the soapbox, grab a microphone and yell to all the world, "Check out how much this guy sucks! Can you believe he even posted this garbage. What a dolt!"

I don't care how much philosophy he spills out on why he does it, it isn't helpful to anyone and, clearly, that is not the purpose.

Will he change? Don't know. But at least someone has made it clear that kind of behavior is not tolerated.

DragonFist
08-11-2006, 04:48 PM
I agree totaly with Tyrot and Para. If you wanna work in the business, you better get a thicker skin.

People shoudn't take critique on their work as a personal insult. If someone says it sucks big time doesn't mean you suck, just your work does.

And don't come with the argument that 'it sucks big time' isn't constructive critisism. It is, it tells you your image is not up to par, don't expect a tutorial with every comment someone makes.

There is too much sweet talk to mediocre work, these people deserve more!

ps: I too am guilty of sweet talk every now and then, afraid of hurting the person, but after such a post I always feel kind of not realy helping that person getting better...

You should really read his posts again. This isn't about criticizism. It is about abusive behavior.

bobakabob
08-11-2006, 04:52 PM
You should really read his posts again. This isn't about criticizism. It is about abusive behavior.

Exactly.

tyrot
08-11-2006, 05:06 PM
dear boba

next time i will send you PM before starting a thread. I dont wanna wake you up from your LALALAhappyhappyLALALA land.

FYI . i never wrote any bad word to anyone's work. WIP or finished work. But it doesnt suit me. But what i want to rethink is how do i act in real life and in here..

In real life..i dont show tolerance to bad work or errors. Clients are not showing me extra care why should i show that to a person i pay? Everyone gets what he deserve in real life. If you are good you get more ..IF you are mediocre you get mediocre. IF you suck well you get suck payment. In real life there is no LALALA songs unless they wanna use you. Everyone KNOWS what you do but they dont tell you they act eventually sooner or later...and you look for a cave where you want to hear your LALALA songs about your work.

In other thread Archiea defending his theory. I hate his idea, I m even going edgy with him but i RESPECT him how he deal with me and others and still keep saying what he thinks. He shows some defense there. I really respect him. But about our WIPseveryone is becoming like a baby. Asking MAMA's care from public...

Sometimes i feel like everyone is blowing eachother's work. It's a big orgy of plastic comments. Ok artists are fragile creatures but this is too much.

Anton Bruckner the greatest composer of Austria has been slashed by critics. They mocked with him for 20 years he was endorsing Wagner's music in front of Brahms school..They said you are smelling like a cow...but He was standing still making more music. He began to doubt about his creativity but didnt stop, He then explained those critics opened his mind for making ethereal 8th and 9th symphony. Same goes with Tesla, Prokofiyev or any other art and science shifting minds...They were probably from the wrong side of town.

If we dont PUSH eachother it will be a big dead lake of lalala comments. If you wanna swim here..well swim here. One day you will visit my town and because you are not prepared , you will be crying like a baby who cant even deal the basics negativities of life. Keep singing your happy song.. wish you

BEST

Sarford
08-11-2006, 05:16 PM
You should really read his posts again. This isn't about criticizism. It is about abusive behavior.

There were some personal attack in his post wich were totaly unneccesary.

I wasn't talking about Oddity though, more in a general sense. If you throw your work in front of the lions, expect it to be torn to threads

tyrot
08-11-2006, 05:17 PM
dea dragonfist

i sent oddi an email... and i said you were harsh with dragonfist. Because i know for how long you are working on this cat. I mean dont think i m biased here. First version in spinquad were horrible. Here it is getting better. But i dont comment anymore cuz i didnt model a cat i didnt deal with furs that much. so it is not my fight or my area.

But the biggest mistake you can make to hide behind that shelter. I said earlier it happened to me. I saw the good part in it.

Didnt you feel the anger? Well i was gonna go and find him and kick his butt...

Didnt you feel that "i am gonna show this snobbish creature to my skills" well i was gonna do even more..

It took me a week to recover before sending anything. I was even thinking to leave that project. Because he was too good and getting all the attention. So..did i went and go back to another forum and cry like a baby and ask for moderator's warm arms to save me and my work?
No i contacted him...asked him what the heck is wrong with my work? He was telling me...one by one. I learned great things from that day. In life there can be ONE oddi and if i dont know how to deal with these guys i will suffer. Right now i can model whatever i want. That day i put a goal in front of me i will be so good that he cant slash my work. Because i know he is the only guy who can show me the mirror. Others just singing the same lalala song. Because he is doing the same thing everyday for his work...

BEST

Bog
08-11-2006, 05:23 PM
I agree that to survive in the industry you need a thick skin, and having a flechette-spewing tongue on occasion is useful.

Oddity is a very, very talented bloke. I'll never be as good with humans as he is, because frankly I don't find humans that interesting to look at. They're made out of meat, and largely constructed with unskilled labour after all ;)

He's got good things to say, but I can't hack the school of thought that says "If you're taking offense, then you should change - not me". Is it because I have a large ego? Well, maybe a bit. But I have a very well developed "Y'ain't the Boss O'Me" Gland.

In 99.994 (about) % of situations, I can find a polite and gentle way of saying "Dude. You can do that better". The vast majority of people who're far smarter than me, who've worked on insanely cool projects, real award-winning major-league stuff have been able to give me a Clue without having to say "suck", "loser", "idiot", "blind", "failure" or "slack-spined feckless mungo, pewling in his own wastes and drooling in his own boot".

*shrugs*

Tyrot, I understand your position, but I also understand the ban. For every chap like you, who rises to such a verbal panelling and says "Well, yes, this is right and I can put my feelings aside, see through the words and see the honesty behind the crit" there are a dozen folk who either quit trying because of such harshness, and drop their project (or god help us, 3D altogether) or get angry.

If I understand the intent of this forum, it's as much for support for us line animals out here on our own, with people who're *qualified* saying "Hey. Good start. Stick with it."

When someone with absolutely demonstrable ability turns around and says "You stink. You suck. Forget it. Throw it away and start from scratch." then that's like a hammerblow to a newbie, or even a very experienced person who's just been working on his own for a while. It also is unscaled. It gives no credence to such things as timescales or deadlines - most of us are Working Artists, not Scholastic Artists. We have to do what we can in the time. Again, such a comment doesn't help in that space.

I admire the guys work, but in his own words - "Dude. Your interpersonal skills suck. They're hopeless. Pathetic. Throw 'em away and try again."

So he gets a one-week time-out. With the criticisms he's happy levying on people without the merest leavening of encouragement, I'm sure he'll understand.

T-Light
08-11-2006, 05:33 PM
DragonFist-

whether effective or not, it serves no other purpose than to crush the new artists
100% correct.

The only time someone really needs to be told they shouldn't continue is when the stakes are high, eg someone leaving accountancy to become an acrobat but you know they're cr*p at gymnastics and they're scared of heights. There are people from all walks of life on these forums and all ranges of skill levels, If someone asks for criticism, they're asking for help on how to improve, they're not asking for a verbal kick in the grollies.

Sorry to find you were the target here DragonFist. I'm off to take a look at the thread now.

Thanks for the link tyrot.

Penforhire
08-11-2006, 05:44 PM
Tyrot, in oDD's case I think you are missing the not-so-subtle distinction between just telling us how you feel about our crappy effort and pointing out how to improve it. It doesn't matter if the statement is entirely true.

And I feel some of his statements are not factual or objective, such as (to paraphrase) a poor result is strictly the result of lack of effort. I call BS on that!

We are not working for each other so why should we all need to have thick skins among our, presumed, friends here?

Bog
08-11-2006, 05:51 PM
We are not working for each other so why should we all need to have thick skins among our, presumed, friends here?

Quite so. We come here to be amongst fellow pros who suffer the slings and arrows all day every day. I'm immediately suspicious (and ususally with very good reason) of anyone who purports to be THE VOICE OF REASON!!!!!!1111eleventy!!!! because I'm pretty sure they're usually more concerned about their reason than mine.

gerry_g
08-11-2006, 06:16 PM
I never minded his crits one iota, though I thought he could be a miserable old bugger, his work is extremely good if somewhat secular in nature, the biggest irony of all is that his banning has generated more comments than his work, I wonder how much of an insult he'll take that to be

Bog
08-11-2006, 06:21 PM
the biggest irony of all is that his banning has generated more comments than his work,

That's no so, chap. Really. His rendition of Michaelangelo's David generated many multiples of this thread on it's own, let alone his other work.

Then again, a lot of people wouldn't have commented on the assumption that with his "slam 'em flat, see if they bounce back up" attitude that their crits would have been thrown away as "little people" speaking. Two sides to every coin.

umstitch
08-11-2006, 07:37 PM
this is the newtek forums not the oddity forum

if there is no respect for other members, extending to malicious intent, it results in a ban.

thats fair enough i reckon:agree:

odditys lightwave skills appear average at best to me, i have failed to find the connection between odditys posted work, his replies to others, and tyrots unnerving support for oddity as a voice of useful criticism.

theres a lot to learn in 3d, it takes time to get a basic grasp, but with that grasping of fundamental concepts you can figure out a whole bunch of stuff..put that stuff together and you can make a picture...just a picture...

...until you start animating, then you make lots of pictures

but im not gonna cry about it:boogiedow

loki74
08-12-2006, 12:25 AM
While I cannot justify anything more than scanning over it, I feel totally and completely compelled to contribute to this garbage about Oddity and his ban...

For the record, I consider myself by no means a softie. If something of mine sucks, I'll own up to that, and if someone else's thing sucks, I won't lie to them.

But I won't malicously berate them, and do my best to make them feel like the lowest piece of sh*t on the planet.

I mean, let's say the composition of a given render is weak. I'll say, "the composition seems rather weak." Was I an *sshole? No. Did I lie to preserve the guy's feelings? No. I mean take the situation at hand. First of all lets look at what the guy originally brought up as criticism:


I don't think he actually has any curves in the graph, it's looks like all interpolation is set to linear, which gives it that robotics feel.
Remember the basic 'ease in and ease out' You want to see shark fins in the graph, not triangles.

That is an example of a perfectly good criticism. But lets continue, shall we?


Umm, are you blind or do you just have a really bad montior? That's literally the worst CG fur I've ever seen. I wasn't going to mention it, but if other's are going to start talking nonsense, then I've no choice. A fox that had been dead for some time and had mange while alive would have a more attractive pelt than that.
Maybe I should blame the nodal fur, it obviosuly isn't going to work. Certianly not better than sasquatch.

So what's the idea here? Don't mention flaws unless people start praising the thing you think is flawed? HELLO? The guy is trying to make FUR. If you don't think the fur looks good, SAY IT in the FIRST PLACE. How's that for being dishonest in critiquing? He should have mentioned in his first post, because it is a legitimate critique, and could be said politely: "The fur needs a LOT of work... frankly, I don't think using APS for fur is a good idea anyway."

The whole thing about a dead fox with mange is completely out of line and inappropriate; it is sheer, utter, unadulterated *ssholeness. There is no arguement here, this is not my opinion, this is fact. There is NOTHING constructive to be derived from that comment, and this has NOTHING to do with "thickness of skin."

But does it end here? Oh, no, it gets even better...


I can't give 'constructive' critisism in ths area since I don't have LW9 and know nothing about nodal displacment fur techiques, but I certainly know what looks good and what doesn't.

So what's this??! Not only is this guy berating another user about something, but is providing criticism on something he admittedly has no means to advise on! If he can't provide any constructive criticism, (as he admits) then what kind of criticism is it? You guessed it-- destructive criticism.

==========

Lets review our facts shall we?

Oddity has:
-On his initial criticism, deliberately excluded a part of his opinion, which was directly and undeniably related to the purpose of the original poster. That, my friends, is dishonesty.
-On his second post, he provides said opinion in a most crude and degrading manner. That, my friends, is acrimony.
-To make things all fit in the better, he openly admits that none of the aforementioned criticism (save that of the interpolation used) could possibly be constructive, the cause for this being nothing other than his own ignorance, also openly admitted. That, my friends, is arrogance.

Regardless of how much merit his points may have, this merit is lost in his lack of professionalism and tact.

People need to get it out of there minds that constructive criticism and civility are mutually exclusive. They are not, and neither are truth and civility.

Truth be told, this character is the only person in any forum or any means of digital communication (email, AIM, etc), in my entire life, have decided to block.

I do not know what I could possibly do to further elucidate this person's clear and utter lack of tact, lack of character, aptitude for unnecessary destuctive criticism, and all manner of social ineptitude.

With regards to the artwork I ought to be critiquing, all I have to say is this--If only Oddity's moral fibre were a reflection of his talent.

tyrot
08-12-2006, 04:52 AM
dear loki74

i see your argument ..good defense..but totally missing something .you misread something ...if you PICK pieces in a thread you can reach this conclusion well my friend how about that post you didnt pick..


Hey DragonFist. It's looking pretty good but the motions are a little jerky. You may want to try looking at your motion curves in the graph editor and see if you can smooth some of them out.

What the thumbs down icon?


I don't think he actually has any curves in the graph, it's looks like all interpolation is set to linear, which gives it that robotics feel.
Remember the basic 'ease in and ease out' You want to see shark fins in the graph, not triangles.

Cresshead is enthusiastic..(well this is democracy he can be)

this fur looks ACE! well done!
if you ever need some cat reference video let me know to roto from...i have 3 cats!

love to see a tutorial on how you made the fur...nice!


Umm, are you blind or do you just have a really bad montior? That's literally the worst CG fur I've ever seen. I wasn't going to mention it, but if other's are going to start talking nonsense, then I've no choice. A fox that had been dead for some time and had mange while alive would have a more attractive pelt than that.
Maybe I should blame the nodal fur, it obviosuly isn't going to work. Certianly not better than sasquatch.

and read the other things once again.

Oddi, attacked CRESSHEAD for giving happy LALALA comment. And said yes this is the worst FUR ever he saw. What s wrong with that? So cant i say that is the WORST thing i ever saw....Means that FUR is SUCK. But he doesnt blame DragonFist but the technic. What s wrong with that honestly?

after cresshead's sloow down comments (playing Ronaldo...unfortunately), Dragonfist writes even more sensitive but half insulting message directly to oddi..and then moderator getting into place..and oddi fires back..he is out.

I think he was pissed because of Cresshead's lalala comment. If Cresshead find ACE oddi can find it WORST.. I call it BALANCE. you can embrace Cresshead's idea and go and make your work good, or grab some other technics from Oddi and leave that technic.

Why do you have to be babies about your work? Even it may get edgy why do you have to whine and cry? And even more WHy the moderator chose a fury cat over a milkmaid. I mean why this community cant have colorful, a bad mouth personalities.

What do we have as a result? Moderator cuts away one of the most promising and inspiring artists from Lightwave forums because of one questionable fury cat and for his sensitive creator.

But again it is not my fight. Why did i open this thread? I was thinking with Oddi's works so much more attention grabber for Lightwave. I want Lightwave to rise an shine with many talented artist. I dont have Archiea's way of thinking (redirecting LW's marketing..) But i have my own subjective way of adding more users to LW. Why? I love LW and Its artists. And i believe LW artists should be protected even they are edgy. usually artists are edgy. That s why we call them artists. Otherwise they would be MAMA's sensitive boys...

BEST

DragonFist
08-12-2006, 05:13 AM
Tyrot, sorry, but you have it pretty wrong. One, I am not a "sensitive boy". I won't even go into the details of my life but suffice it to say that I have being thrown physically from a bridge is only one of the things that this "sensitive boy" has survived. I can take a few lame remarks. The point is that Oddity regularly slams newbies.

And quite frankly, I am getting a little tired of you defending him by stating my WIP sucks. That's your defense, he is right, my works sucks. He is just being honest. Well, sorry, but it isn't true. I am not the top rated artist in all the world. So freaking what? I am someone trying to learn how to do something. And I have improved greatly over the past few months and I didn't need Oddity's or your insults to make me get better. And neither does anyone else. I don't have some dilusion that my work (unfinished I might add) is the next Toy Story and need to have my bubble burst before I hurt myself.

In addition, I have told Oddity many times in the past that I don't like his particular brand of criticizism and don't want to hear it from him. One might take that as a clue not to do it. But he did and did so even after he was warned to stop by the Moderator. It is not like the Moderator just walked in on one post and banned him. Oddity has had several complaints made about him. I just happen to have started the thread that contained the proverbial "straw".

Bottomline, there are several examples of good, honest critiques that were not softie given in this thread that would have in no way insulted me. They are very different from the direct *attempt* bash me and my work that Oddity engaged in and has done to others.

Please stop trying to convince people that they have somehow lost a great man to the bad judgement of NT. It isn't true. ****, his ban was only for a freakin week for christ's sake. There's no need for a memorial service.

tyrot
08-12-2006, 05:41 AM
dear dragon

i dont want you to get me wrong. the problem is i confess here . i WAS a sensitive boy myself. I changed after series of oddi's attack. I felt good about my progress. The only reason i tried to get your attention, if you ignore the valid but harsh critic you will not be so ok in future.

secondly i said here earlier...i admire your bold effort. I really do. you are trying to animate, make a fur from a very not-so-proven technic , invest your time for making it better. I really admire that. I think different in this section with oddi. I endorse you to make better work. Cuz i know i wont buy sasquatch and if you develope this technic better you will be so much more valuable for me.

but the thing is if you get wrong comments and stop here ...and get Cresshead's ACE as your ultimatte point well it is dangerous. I got ACES from many guys in many forums till i crashed oddi's brutal replies.

Plus one criticism i can directly point at you..Dont happy when a person gets ban. I dont like Thomas' XSI way of thinking but i have to tell i admire his well of knowledge and if he is right i should give a try...I feel bad if he gets ban. I hate ARchiea's endless posts about marketing but at the end it gives me another thought, i m even offering him to get his LW copy i m happy he doesnt sell and stay firm in his position....Well that s why we are here. this aint kindergarden..We dont need protection. Even it gets so much heat that is also a life process. Forums must be more open and more honest places.

Plus it isnt bad judgement of NT, i dont have problem with NT, i m getting rich to get even more NT licenses even shares. I love NT. But banning must be selective process. If you get banned from that thread i would do the same thing for you. Just believe this..(old habits) And last thing if i get ban because such a thread for a week. That means for me the end of this forum. That s my way of thinking. I dont know and dont wanna know what oddi thinks.

So may be there must be other ways of moderating people instead of banning, delete the post everyone will be happy. Banning means for me "we dont want you here .for this time" Deleting post means "we dont allow you to write this comment" what do you say?

BEST

Cageman
08-12-2006, 05:46 AM
dear loki74

I think he was pissed because of Cresshead's lalala comment. If Cresshead find ACE oddi can find it WORST.. I call it BALANCE. you can embrace Cresshead's idea and go and make your work good, or grab some other technics from Oddi and leave that technic.

Unfortunately, Oddi didn't give any hint towards an alternative technique. Would been interresting to see what he would have suggested. But I doubt that he would have given a suggestion based on this quote:

"I don't think it's necessary or practical to include a tutorial on how something should be done correctly every time you tell someone they are doing it badly. Tutorials, like advice, has the disadvantage that the wise don't need it, and fools don't heed it."

My interpretation of that quote is that Oddity learned everything the hard way and, probably, wants everyone else to do the same. He has a point, but it can be worded so much differently so that the reciever feels enlighted instead of offended. But then, he says this:

"There is so much information available on the internet about all aspects of CG that there is no excuse for not doing everything to a certain standard."

Why not give advice about where to find the information? A new LW-user may not be aware of all the recources avaliable.

Here is another thing which I believe is a valid point, but once again it could have been worded so much differently.

"With people such as dragonfist, who obviously lack the most essential element of any artist, which is harsh and scathing self-criticism, they have to rely on the harsh and scathing criticism of others..."

Being self-critic of the work is key to success and improvements. But you can only be as critical as your experience allows you to. When you reach the roof, you need a fresh pair of eyes, hopefully someone with alot more experience than yourself, to get the feedback you need to forward the work.

1) I want to know whats wrong with the picture/animaton/whatever
2) My current experience doesn't allow me to make things better, so...
3) A hint, advice or something that let me dwelve into new information that can give me the experience to forward my work is the reason why I ask my supervisor. And this is probably why people post things in WIP-forums as well...

DragonFist
08-12-2006, 05:53 AM
Wow! Cageman, I couldn't have said it better myself. ****, I've been trying and failed. Those three numbered points are exactly the mind set I am trying to operate on here. It isn't a matter of not knowing it can be improved, but how to do it.

iconoclasty
08-12-2006, 07:07 AM
Oh man. I can't decide which side I want to be on.

T-Light
08-12-2006, 07:50 AM
tyrot-

So may be there must be other ways of moderating people instead of banning, delete the post everyone will be happy. Banning means for me "we dont want you here .for this time" Deleting post means "we dont allow you to write this comment" what do you say?
Disagree competely there.

Banning someone for being overly offensive is a reasonable thing to do.

To erase that post before people get a chance to read it is censorship. Censorship can get out of hand really quickly, there is some censorship on these boards but it's pretty light handed.

Give me choice between heavy handed censorship ruining everyone's chances of a reasonably heated discussion and banning someone for a week, let's see...

Oddity, sorry old man, but 'YER OUT'

tyrot
08-12-2006, 08:43 AM
dear T-Light

well... you can dance around the fire because he is out. It is not my forum. It is not CGTALK where the witches rule..It is NT's forum.

BANNING is INSULTING. That means again "Go and take your talent somewhere else, Newtek doesnt need you or your work or your art produced with LW" man From my LWian POV roddi may bring NEW users. simple is that..I can tell you at least 100 guys ultimattely interested in other forums with LW because of his models. He helped them in every occasion and protect madly LW in other forums. You keep him here but with a decent censorship. He could also learn something. But kicking his butt saying clearly "go and get another Software Package."

Does moderation has this authority.?

BANNING is personal, belittling awful way of dealing talented guys or great LWers like SplineGod (Cgtalk banned).

Moderating must be moderated. Censorship is more objective because less damage will be caused. But banning ...you cant be serious what you are writing there...

YOu can be happy, but i m not happy. Panikos directly MOCKS with newtek almost every post, (read worley's thread) he is here and still complaing. God knows i love his "one sentence complaints" giving me really fresh air in every forum. I love NT shows tolerance for him or to archie or others. SO I think there is a serious problem overhere.

YOu can IMPLY over and over and over again "NEWTEK SUCKS" but you CANT do the same thing to a CAT???


BEST

theo
08-12-2006, 08:49 AM
Newtek served the interests of this forum society perfectly by temporarily banning this particular member.

And if Michelangelo were alive today using this forum and decided, innapropriately, to castigate another member for his perceived lack of talent I am pretty certain his butt would have been on the wall for seven days as well.

Civility is the name of the game on forums. And civilty dictates that when you are critiquing people publically you need to, certainly, be truthful but apply tact, humility, and a respectful demeanor to that critical review because we are ALL learning.

This is a professional forum set up by a professional company and as such Newtek is not going to allow their forum to be a training ground for developing thick skins to protect against comments that are designed to be inflammatory and mean-spirited.

T-Light
08-12-2006, 08:57 AM
tyrot, censorship is for life, Oddity however, will be back on Thursday.

tyrot
08-12-2006, 09:08 AM
tyrot, censorship is for life, Oddity however, will be back on Thursday.

dear T-light

i really see your point i know how dangerous to deal with censorship.

But i doubt...oddity will be back on thursday or any other thursday. It can be another guy for you..But for me (i love to tend to protect and show different kind of attitude to artists) he was neverending inspiring for me to model and for so many guys to show interest to LW.

Call me romantic artist protector, I m proud with every amazing work you make, he makes or Dave Jerrads makes..Because it is Lightwave. I use lightwave i feel good when i see outstanding works... You cant teach or plant these feelings but this is what i feel when i see a work like milkmaid.

So tell me honestly after seeing that work didnt you want to see that on Lightwave's box. We are not equal. May be yes equal for eachother but for a company for a graphical software company artists are "the superstars". And censorship is the way. Come on you cant even write daaaamn here as it is.

BEST

Bog
08-12-2006, 09:14 AM
Aw come on, a week's ban for goodness' sake. That's a slap on the wrist. How many people did Oddity have to verbally kick the crap out of before that happenned?


(i love to tend to protect and show different kind of attitude to artists)

I'm sure the forum moderators think they're tending and protecting us by stating - in a way that's not open to misinterpretation - that the way he was talking to people was unacceptable. If he doesn't return when his ban expires, then it shows that he can dish out punishment, but not take it himself.

It's not censorship, it's enforcing a code of behavior. Should the very talented be expected to hold to the same codes of behavior as "normal people"? Er, yes. Of course we're not all equal - that's why there are different pay-scales. Is anyone so unequal that he's got the right to be as offensive, insensitive and verbally brutal as he likes to other people?

Nope. That's not how it works. Anyway, be careful with the word "censorship", there's a big difference between censorship and maintaining a healthy and productive environment. It's not censorship to empty a bin because it's stinking the place out.

Cageman
08-12-2006, 09:24 AM
Tyrot, just because an artist is good, doesn't mean he can behave as he/she see fits. You mention that he's active at other forums and defending LW. Cool, but.. what has that to do with anything? What he does outside of NT-forums doesn't mean a squat to NT if he behaves like he does here.

Oddity is your hero, and your personal feelings were hurt when he got banned. Get over it. Maybe it is time for you to show your thick skin and be aware of the fact that ill-behavior will be punished harder than being less artistic than Oddity...

hrgiger
08-12-2006, 09:42 AM
Tyrot,

Can we not agree that there needs to be rules in the forum? Or do you think there should just be complete anarchy and people should be allowed to post whatever comes off the top of their head? Hey, I don't agree with a lot of the laws of my country but I still have to pay the consequences when I break them. I think it's retarded that the law requires me to wear a seat belt, but I'm still getting a ticket if a cop pulls me over and I'm not wearing one. oDDity just got his ticket, that is all.
Besides, these forums do not represent society on the whole. This is a discusion board run and hosted by Newtek. They set the rules here, and we agree to them when we register. oDDity pretty much signed away his rights to be a complete AHole to whom every he chooses when he signed up to participate in the forums. Despite your love for him, he is not helping a lot of people ere when he tells someone how much their work sucks. He needs to elaborate more if is actually trying to be helpful. For example, he commented how much the nodal fur sucked, but then immediately afterward says he does not understand the nodal system. How is it helpful for him to just say something looks like crap but then not be able to explain at all what he means or possibly how the user can improve it?
I can take his criticism, the words don't hurt, but they give me nowhere to go. Here's a fictional example(and no, I don't think this is an exaggeration):

oDDity: That sucks. A third grader could do that.
hrgiger: Ok. Can you elaborate? What don't you like about it?
oDDity: I don't like that it sucks. It's not real art either. Believe me, I know real art.

Would that be helpful? Would that be constructive? And can you smell the putrid arrogance?
Not only that, but when one persons comments completely hijack a work in progress thread from the backlash, I think most of us would agree that someone needs to play just a little bit nicer.

tyrot
08-12-2006, 09:46 AM
Oddity is your hero, and your personal feelings were hurt when he got banned. .


dear cageman..

he is my hero, dave my hero, splinegod is my hero, anyone who shows outstanding effort on anything can be my hero. My personal feelings will be hurt if you have get a ban too. That s me..

This is a discusion board run and hosted by Newtek. They set the rules here, and we agree to them when we register.

that s my only problem. So you say it is Newtek's call to ban..I find this argumentive.

But i dont wanna take your time. I think i made my points. I think we have a moderating issue. YOu think we dont have that bans reflect whole NT's point of view. If so i would like to read it here..and get over it...and learn that they tolerate NT SUCKS but CATS dont SUCK... dilemma.

BEST

Cageman
08-12-2006, 09:58 AM
My personal feelings will be hurt if you have get a ban too. That s me..

BEST

:) :thumbsup:

Very kind of you to say so. I admire your passion about this whole thing, and that you care so much for the name LightWave that you are afraid loosing good artists that may have a big impact on people outside LW-community. I'm quite confident though, that Oddity will not stop using a tool that he can achive great results with because of what has happened.

Maybe he will not come back here, but you will certanly have close contact with him and fight the app-wars at other forums with some kick-*** artistery. ;)

You and I, though, may have to agree that we disagrees on some points. :)

Chuck
08-12-2006, 10:34 AM
Tyrot, there is a note at the top of most of the forum sections describing some of the rules of the forum, and among them is that moderation decisions are not subject to public debate or discussion - please respect this in future. When you disagree with a moderation decision, contact the moderation staff privately.

Secondly, no amount of talent excuses anyone from an obligation to use common courtesy and to act in a professional manner on a public forum, especially when the forum rules that they agreed to abide by on registering for the board set such forth as the terms of participation in the forum.

Most of the so-called "straight talk" that so many seem to think is a desirable mode of behavior these days is in fact a lot less straight to any useful point than critiques that are offered courteously, professionally and respectfully; what it is, is quite simply deliberately abusive and inclusive of personal insult as opposed to focusing as it should on the work. Critiquing the person rather than the work is completely out of line for a variety of reasons, including that when the talk gets to assessing the level of or lack of talent, it makes the mistaken assumption that the person is not able to grow. Many among us can no doubt cite from a lot of years of experience that such an assumption may very well be faulty.

"That sucks," means not one bit more than "This really does not work at all for me," and the latter is how the concept ought to be said. What works not at all for one viewer may work very well for another, so a blanket pronouncement on the quality of the work expressed as though it is authoritative is most often nothing more than an exercise in self-centeredness. When there are works that clearly are intended for a professional standard that they in fact do not meet, it should be said in just exactly those words rather than reduced to a pithy-sounding but actually meaningless insult. "That sucks" and ilk are nothing more than a failure to rise to literate speech in a literate venue.

On a personal note, I've participated in a number of critique groups over the years and in all of them professional communication was required, including focus on the work and refusal to substitute insult to either the work or the artist for meaningful comment on the work. Allow the notion that you are participating in order to help the other artists or writers grow to the extent of their capabilities, and that only substantive comment on what does not work, why it does not work and how that can be improved will accomplish that goal, and you begin to understand that tact is no impediment to a thorough, deep critique. Allow also that the receiver is entitled to choose what suggestions they will follow or not follow and that your own ego should no more be invested in your critique than theirs should be in a work they have placed for critique, and you will not give way to rants when they don't happen to take your advice, as we've seen some do here.

And yes, we do tolerate things directed at NewTek or in some cases even at specific NewTek staff that we do not tolerate when directed to other forum members.

To repeat here for those who may have missed it:


Moderation Notice
---------------------------------------
The NewTek Forums are not a free speech zone, they are for professional and civil discourse regarding NewTek products by NewTek users. Those who are unable to stick to topic or unable to maintain civil conversation with others will have their accounts removed.

Promotional messages and material for competing products will be removed. The user accounts of those who demonstrably have no purpose on the NewTek forums other than to promote competing products will also be removed.


Moderation decisions are not subject to public discussion. If you have comments, send an email or private message to the moderators.

Link to Moderation Notice on General Discussions Forum (http://www.newtek.com/forums/showthread.php?t=17153)

And that's enough for this thread.