PDA

View Full Version : New Tiered LW standard/extreme poll



archiea
08-08-2006, 11:17 PM
This is a more accurate poll concerening a Tiered LW availablility. it depitcs the choices clearly, and doesn't allow for a non opinion...so read the description below and vote above. feel free to elaborate and comment below.. lets keep it civil too!! Thanks for taking the time. :thumbsup:

1. Yes, there should be a LW standard that refelects the current development cycle that is possible for $795, while offering an advanced version for $1500 or more that would accelerate development that would not be possible at the $795 pricepoint. Such development like advanced char anim/3D tracker/native 3D painter/skin and muscle system/etc that would offer more feature parity with more advanced versions of maya and XSI. Meanwhile the "Standard" edition would reflect the current LW development pace at $795, thus not conflicting with newtek's credo of best tools for the best price (that $795 can buy).

2. No, I don't want a tiered price structure, but I do want such development like advanced char anim/3D tracker/native 3D painter/skin&muscle system/etc.. in a more timely factor. Therefore I am willing to pay what is necessary to get LW up to speed and be competative with the more "advanced" versions of Maya and XSI as a single package.

3. No, I do not want a tiered price stucture, nor do I want a price increase. Yes I would like to see advanced features like advanced char anim/3D tracker/native 3D painter/skin&muscle system/etc.. however I do not wish to pay more for that, nor do i wish to see it available only to a higher paying customer. I understand that at $795 I may not see these features for several years in LW.. they may not even be available as plugins (3D tracker, skin and muscle system). However LW's price point is more important for me, and NT development rate is just fine for me even if its behind the pace of the advanced versions of other apps

nmh
08-08-2006, 11:43 PM
sorry, your voting is not very good..
i want single version LW as it is and the price is upon NT.
but that doesn't mean that there will be not any advanced features.
it seems like that voting for 3 is voting for non advanced features..
so i don't vote.

archiea
08-08-2006, 11:52 PM
Thanks for commenting....

vote 3 is almost for what we have now. By advanced features I mean things like advanced char anim/3D tracker/native 3D painter/skin&muscle system/etc. Does Lighwave have this now? Will LW 10 offer all of this for $795, say, two years from today?

So how do you get a single version of LW with advanced char anim/3D tracker/native 3D painter/skin&muscle system/etc for $795?

StereoMike
08-08-2006, 11:59 PM
nmh: I think No. 3 reflects the status quo. So if you like it like it is now, check option 3.

I'm not sure about the first two options. Both make sense for me, a tiered LW is a good marketing technique (look at xsi foundation), allows everyone to get in and you can expand the possibilities when you're ready. But you will split the community into ppl who talk about the features of the big versions, (grounding tutorials on these things) and into ppl who can only watch the cool stuff from a distance.
Option 2 will maintain the integrity of the community on a first look, but you will have more dropouts during upgrade cycles, which will lead to similar effects like #1 (splitting the community into parties with different LW versions ).
I think it's worse to split the community into ppl with new and old versions, so I vote for 1, cause that will at least maintain an even field regarding the used LW version (tho different amount of features).

Mike

archiea
08-09-2006, 12:09 AM
thanks for voting and commenting StereoMike.. I wanted to post choice that more reflect the econimics of such choices. Sure everyone wants LW to have advanced features for $795, but how realistic that in a timeframe that is competative?

Remember, the economics in choices1 & 2 allow for those Cool Features in a timely manner...

bryphi7
08-09-2006, 12:22 AM
I voted 1. I would fork out the extra if it was worth it, but I most definitely would not prepay!

archiea
08-09-2006, 12:34 AM
Prepaying with NT means that youg et some bundled apps like LWCAD and Vue... so at least NT makes prepaying lucrative to the ..er.. prepayer... While we would all like to se software released when its announced.. that is almost never the case... however newtek's open beta program seemed an unanimious success..

prospector
08-09-2006, 12:53 AM
Other poll is more straightforward.
This is more of an opinion poll.

Lightwolf
08-09-2006, 01:05 AM
Don't trust statistics you didn't forge yourself ;)

You forgot another option:
4) I want quicker updates, dedicated support and early access to new developments and would be willing to pay a yearly fee for that.

Imho _that_ would make a lot more sense than a multi-tierd solution, especially since it could be put into place _now_, while the other options would be at least two to four years away from now.

Cheers,
Mike

archiea
08-09-2006, 01:10 AM
Thanks for replying prospector....

considering the replies of folks in the other poll, which varied from "one lighwave to rule them all" to "the very best single version" to folks asking for a price bump for more features, the pole didn't seem to weigh in the gray areas. Plus the replies seemed to ask for the impossible; advanced features for $795... OK, but when? in several years?

I set up the poll to reflect how people's selection would affect the outcome of the version of LW that they had picked. this was based upon how the market is today. not on pess releases, nor unrealistic outlooks like having allof those features in a timely fashion for $795.

Also, some folks who voted for a single version did mention that they had a number plugins.. which is like paying extra for features that you want now...

archiea
08-09-2006, 01:14 AM
Beating the dead horse with a new poll eh? This one isn't very accurate and clearly has a touch of your personal oppinion in every choice. I vote blank and you can see my preference in my comment in the other, better poll.


thanks for replying Neverko, but the "opions" on my poll are based upon what the market has today. How long do you think it will take newtek tio develop those high end features that I posted. many folks think that newtek can do.. so do I, but when? Isn't that an opinion in itself?

I'm curious, what option in the poll would you want that you would vote for?

archiea
08-09-2006, 01:16 AM
Don't trust statistics you didn't forge yourself ;)

You forgot another option:
4) I want quicker updates, dedicated support and early access to new developments and would be willing to pay a yearly fee for that.

Imho _that_ would make a lot more sense than a multi-tierd solution, especially since it could be put into place _now_, while the other options would be at least two to four years away from now.

Cheers,
Mike

Thanks for the reply Lightwolf.

I based the very loose statistics on the current market.

However I do ask, how do you think the other LW users who like free x.5 updates would feel to your "subscription" version? would older LW versions still work?

Lightwolf
08-09-2006, 02:13 AM
However I do ask, how do you think the other LW users who like free x.5 updates would feel to your "subscription" version? would older LW versions still work?
It wouldn't change a thing for current users.
I'm thinking more on the line of monthly builds and priority support (i.e. get a qualifyed reply within a certain timeframe, like 24hrs during working days) - as well as free major upgrades.
Also access to single .p file fixes if something crucial comes up during production that can by fixed easily by the dev team. I actually think that is more important for studios than having new plugins bundled (especially since I don't think many of the third parties would jump on board as extended core developers), and it would be more along the lines of what NT can handle.
Basically like a pre-order (that gives you extra benefits), but with a steady cash income for NT that can be planned with.
Since major updates come out every 18 months or so, I'd set the "subscription" fee to be around U$200-300 per year, which is along the same line.
I also think that the multi-tiered approach would take a couple of years to implement and get starting... while a subscription is easier to implement and gives instant rewards to the users (I suppose they'd need to hire a couple of dedicated tech persons).
If I look at apps like XSI, it is imho not the tiered approach that makes them succesful, but the close tech relationship to studios as well as third parties. I'd value that a lot higher if I had to make a studio purchasing decision (beyond the couple of copies we have at our tiny studio, where I play the tech support part myself ;) )

Edit: just to be clear on this - it wouldn't change a single thing for current users at all!

Cheers,
Mike

digital verve
08-09-2006, 02:46 AM
I voted for 2 as I would pay a little more if it would make a big difference in the features, how they are implemented and a quick timeframe in delivery. The 3rd question seemed a bit loaded to me with your "I understand that at $795 I may not see these features for several years in LW" statement. I don't see why Newtek can't keep the same price, supply us good workflow and features in a timely manner. :)

EDIT: Isn't the new Inspire3D going to be the lower end LW anyway, so LW will be the advanced 3D app from Newtek?

digital verve
08-09-2006, 02:53 AM
There are some interesting perspectives from people outside of LW on your similar thread on CGTALK:

http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?t=391268

Wonderpup
08-09-2006, 03:23 AM
Is the assumption that a price increase for Lightwave would generate more income correct?

A lot of the people that post on this forum are living in places outside the richer US and western europe areas, and a price increase might be beyond their reach- so the effect of a price increase could be to decrease income.

I think we can assume that the current pricepoint was set for good reason, I'm sure that if Newtek felt they could charge more they would already be doing so.

Yamba
08-09-2006, 04:08 AM
Hi achiea,

Time to admit it mate, it doesn't matter how many different ways you try to flog you personal preferences on this subject and how many different ways you try to construct the polls so you get the outcome you want, it's not going to happen.

82.39% in the other poll: http://newtek.com/forums/showthread.php?t=55179 don't agree with you.

You've been shoving your argument down our throats for what seems an eternity.

So what can we do to help you get the outcome you want?

Well, I for one propose the ACHIEA MAYA FUND to help you switch to a programme that apparently meets your requirements, I'm sure you understand the principle of supply and demand, if Newtek can't meet your demands then perhaps it's time to find another supplier.

I'd really like to think your playing Devils Advocate and your doing your bit to advance the development of Lightwave by stimulating argument and discussion on the future direction of a product you obviously enjoy. I do hope this is the situation as your contribution to these forums has been significant and has both enlightened and engaged me.

Without Malice and with Best Wishes
Yamba

Verlon
08-09-2006, 05:38 AM
I feel that hrgiger's poll was more fair. This one seems to imply that our choices only allow for advanced features with a price increase.

Many tools have been added to Lightwave while reducing the price. I do not feel that an increase is a given.

If Newtek felt the need to increase the price of Lightwave, I would be forced to evaluate how that new price would fit in with my budget and desires, and decide then on whether or not to purchase that upgrade.

However, I am not going to sit here and say "please increase the price of Lightwave," or even "please create a more expensive version of Lightwave."

I would prefer a single version of Lightwave. If it is a more expensive version, then I might not choose to buy it (depends on how much more expensive. I trust you understand basic economics).

So, I am not voting in this poll.

archiea
08-09-2006, 05:43 AM
Hi achiea,

Time to admit it mate, it doesn't matter how many different ways you try to flog you personal preferences on this subject and how many different ways you try to construct the polls so you get the outcome you want, it's not going to happen.

82.39% in the other poll: http://newtek.com/forums/showthread.php?t=55179 don't agree with you.

You've been shoving your argument down our throats for what seems an eternity.

So what can we do to help you get the outcome you want?


Thanks for your reply Yamba..

actually I'm OK with the percentage breakdown for the advanced versions, as it represents the market share. what does concern me is how unrealistic folks are with their reasoning.. i.e. getting advanced features along the line of Maya unlimited for $795.. considering that many haven't even used Maya or the like. there seems to be more of an emotional response.. liek LW users have some sort of complex towards other apps...

I think voting for a single app in the other poll at $795, yet wishing to get all of those features is just not realistic. the fact that many wanted a single app, but were willing to pay more for more features was also a written response that isn;t reflected in the actual poll.

Lastly, the fact that people spent hundreds of dollars in plug-ins for features that LW lacked, but later ended up folding into the app, making users pay for them essentially again...that was never refeenced in the polls... thsi fullfilled the need of users needing mre advanced features, and paying more for them.. but in this case.. twice.. i was hoping folks would see that as a possible market for an advanced version...

Instead, there were more emotional responses like "one LW to rule them all..."






Well, I for one propose the ACHIEA MAYA FUND to help you switch to a programme that apparently meets your requirements, I'm sure you understand the principle of supply and demand, if Newtek can't meet your demands then perhaps it's time to find another supplier.


Actually the maya PLE was only $25 with atraining DVD.. somethign that one just can't get with LW... and that helped me transition to Maya. After that my job provided the balance of the training.. However I can use a flat screen TV.. Sony Bravia of course.. so if you want to help start a fund for that....



I'd really like to think your playing Devils Advocate and your doing your bit to advance the development of Lightwave by stimulating argument and discussion on the future direction of a product you obviously enjoy. I do hope this is the situation as your contribution to these forums has been significant and has both enlightened and engaged me.

a

yes, exactly.. I want to enlighten the folsk ehre to not settle for the status quo. hence my extened poll.. I wanted to repesent folks with the options that indicated how the reprocussions of their decisions for their version of Lw woild affect the final product based on parallels that exist inthe 3D market. Just wishing that LW gets advanced features is not enough. I was also trying to poll who thinks beyond the boundaries of this forum. As an example, look at the reaction to a similar poll in the cgtalk community...

http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?t=391268

while still too early to conclude anyting (just 8 votes in at the time of me posting this) their reponses seemed informed.. they say hindsight is 20/20, so their repoinse is from having used tiered software. While one could see that as a bias, I think the distinction from the replies here stand for themselves. They offer an informed opinion on the situation, their perception of LW from an industry professional, and how they work in a 3d marketplace.. which is a tiered marketplace. i just found their reponses far more adult.. and less fanboy..

THIS is what I am trying to enlighten folks with!! That there is a a whole other world that they should sometimes put LW in context with, without thinking its an elitist mentality...

archiea
08-09-2006, 05:45 AM
Is the assumption that a price increase for Lightwave would generate more income correct?

A lot of the people that post on this forum are living in places outside the richer US and western europe areas, and a price increase might be beyond their reach- so the effect of a price increase could be to decrease income.

I think we can assume that the current pricepoint was set for good reason, I'm sure that if Newtek felt they could charge more they would already be doing so.

thanks for replying wonderpup...

yes Lw pricepoint is in particular place in the market place. but my questions are:

1) can lighwave deliver such mentioned high end features in a timely manner for $795?

2) How does the advaned version hurt current customers if they can get the current LW for the same price as Lw standard..?

archiea
08-09-2006, 05:54 AM
I feel that hrgiger's poll was more fair. This one seems to imply that our choices only allow for advanced features with a price increase.

Many tools have been added to Lightwave while reducing the price. I do not feel that an increase is a given.


They dynamics toolset in v8 was motion designer... available since v6 at least. the nodal surfaces, while a tremendous milestone, was derived from similar plugins from 8.0. manyof thes enew features have been from plugins 9that many had already paid for) that wer assimilated into the next LW version.

Lw 6 presented a huge leap ahead of the competition at the time (in 2000) with its new HDR engine. It was also the most expensive price on LW to date.






If Newtek felt the need to increase the price of Lightwave, I would be forced to evaluate how that new price would fit in with my budget and desires, and decide then on whether or not to purchase that upgrade.

However, I am not going to sit here and say "please increase the price of Lightwave," or even "please create a more expensive version of Lightwave."

I would prefer a single version of Lightwave. If it is a more expensive version, then I might not choose to buy it (depends on how much more expensive. I trust you understand basic economics).

So, I am not voting in this poll.

So that is choice # 3.. which is getting Lw at $795 with the current pace of development.. i.e. character animation by end of Lw 9.x development, but no Skin/muscle, no 3D tracker, etc...

Or, if your prefer, present your own write in vote liek what Lightwolf did with his proposal of a subscription system....

mrunion
08-09-2006, 06:32 AM
I voted for #2 but I would like to add constraints. "What is necessary..." is somewhat subjective. I'd like to go on the record as voting for #2 with that phrase meaning "What is reasonable...".

But please, no multi-version stuff. Please.

Yamba
08-09-2006, 06:34 AM
Hi achiea,

Point, or should I say points taken!

I shall continue to follow your argument with interest both here and at cgsociety as the issue evolves.

Best Regards
Yamba

Cageman
08-09-2006, 10:05 AM
the nodal surfaces, while a tremendous milestone, was derived from similar plugins from 8.0. manyof thes enew features have been from plugins 9that many had already paid for) that wer assimilated into the next LW version.

I voted nr 2, because I believe that when LW10 rolls out, a higher price could be justified. However, besides Nodal, I didn't know much of the rest of the "plugins" you are reffering to. And, since NT brought those guys in, ALL those so called "plugins" were developed alot more than what they ever could have been as plugins. This includes Nodal. You make it look like a cheap thing to do, almost bad. But what could NT do? They must build a new team that can forward LW into the present/future, esp. when Allen and Stuart aren't avaliable any more.

hrgiger
08-09-2006, 11:01 AM
This is what you call a biased poll. You're steering people to vote by scaring them into thinking that Newtek cannot deliver innovative features at the current price. You're stating it as fact when you have no clue as to whether it is true or not.

archiea
08-09-2006, 11:10 AM
This is what you call a biased poll. You're steering people to vote by scaring them into thinking that Newtek cannot deliver innovative features at the current price. You're stating it as fact when you have no clue as to whether it is true or not.


Well, its been the fact for the past few years... promisies for the future is great, but they are still vaporware until they sitin my harddrive. Remember Newtek said it themsekves that the the 9.0 release was harder than they thought (like SDK, etc), so I find it hard to believe that in the next 18 months we will have the features I outlined, especially for just $795. Look at the comments from this more balanced poll audience..

http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?t=391268

Trust me, I, out of most people, want NT to prove me wrong.. and I always put my money where my mouth is to give them the benefit of the doubt...

Cageman
08-09-2006, 11:31 AM
This is what you call a biased poll. You're steering people to vote by scaring them into thinking that Newtek cannot deliver innovative features at the current price. You're stating it as fact when you have no clue as to whether it is true or not.

Don't count me in to that category. I belive that sooner or later, NT needs to rise their price. What about hiring new talent? Such as those students that make new, inovative things (that crazy fluid-simulator springs to mind).

Creative 3D-developers are rare, and the few around are probably hired by the best bidder (and there are those that want to develop their own things as plugins, Worley springs to my mind).

I would gladly pay more for LW if I knew that NT were bidding for new, creative programming-talent.

Bog
08-09-2006, 12:00 PM
Well, its been the fact for the past few years...

...that's because they've been re-writing the whole core for the last few years.

Another non-voter in this poll.

Cageman
08-09-2006, 12:07 PM
...that's because they've been re-writing the whole core for the last few years.

Another non-voter in this poll.

Bog, who did you quote? I didn't find the the post you quoted in this thread. :question:

EDIT: Ohh... found it... In the future though, please make sure the name of the person you quote are in the post as well... :) ;)

Bog
08-09-2006, 12:15 PM
Fixed

parm
08-09-2006, 12:36 PM
Look at the comments from this more balanced poll audience..

http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?t=391268

Trust me, I, out of most people, want NT to prove me wrong.. and I always put my money where my mouth is to give them the benefit of the doubt...

Interestingly, 2 out of 3 of your respondents there. Expressed a preference for a modular approach. Which does actually allow more choice. Allowing the user to pick and choose. Building on the base package, without having to purchase expensive items not required.

I thought the point about how, objects or scenes worked on in the higher tiered products, would break, or be un-editable when opened by someone using the lower end of the scale version. Was very interesting.

Indeed, the third respondent illustrated very well, how a studio that tried to make savings by buying maybe one or two seats of top tier and several seats of the the lower tier. Might come under considerable pressure from it's own workforce to upgrade all, to the higher end version because of the cross compatibility problems.

And of course if you don't have to buy your own software, why not ask for Houdini.

parm
08-09-2006, 12:39 PM
Fixed

Wrong thread?

"Say it in a word" (http://www.newtek.com/forums/showthread.php?t=52751&page=16)

:)

hrgiger
08-09-2006, 01:37 PM
Well, its been the fact for the past few years... promisies for the future is great, but they are still vaporware until they sitin my harddrive. Remember Newtek said it themsekves that the the 9.0 release was harder than they thought (like SDK, etc), so I find it hard to believe that in the next 18 months we will have the features I outlined, especially for just $795. Look at the comments from this more balanced poll audience..

http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?t=391268

Trust me, I, out of most people, want NT to prove me wrong.. and I always put my money where my mouth is to give them the benefit of the doubt...

Well, I won't speculate as to what will happen in the next 18 months. But I will say that I was not prepared to upgrade to Lightwave 9, but I've seen sufficient evidence that the work that has gone into Lightwave will bring welcome changes to the software within the 9.x cycle and into v10. I'm sticking with Lightwave for that reason, not out of blind loyalty as you constatnly suggest. If the release of 9 felt as patched together as version 8 did, believe me, I would be on the XSI forums right now, probably arguing about why XSI shouldn't be tiered.
It is useless for you to surmise that we will not see any great improvements anytime soon because Lightwave sells for cheaper then what you think is necessary for feature growth. It is merely your opinion and is not based on any kind of fact or figure. If I didn't hate them so much, I would make up some stupid car analogy about how my honda gets me from point A to point B, just like someone else's mercedes. But I won't.:D
Personally, I think NT will prove you wrong. Whether it's sufficient to your standards or not is another argument all together, and one I'm not interested in debating the finer points of.

Interestingly enough, even with your different wording, the results of this poll are 80% against a tiered Lightwave.

KevinL
08-09-2006, 09:01 PM
that users quite trying to design sales/marketing strategy for Newtek. If this area of Lightwave's development interests someone, I would suggest they apply for a position with Newtek.

Respectfully,
Kevin

wacom
08-09-2006, 11:40 PM
You guys are such rubes! Put your money where you mouth is or use poser and Animation Master!

I remember reading an article back when LW 6 was coming out where an old LW user was complaining about the price drops- he was afraid the package would suffer due to funding and by attracting more "hoby types" than "film users".

I hate to say it...but sometimes it looks that way...

I say put LW's price back to where it was when I first bought it, ship things on time, and give us the freaking things we've been asking for now for at least three versions!

Oh, and though I love my copy of DF to death- stop buying us off with goodies and just put that money into development and marketing!