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hrgiger
08-07-2006, 10:08 AM
Since this seems to be the topic of the week, here's a poll. Do you think there should be a tiered system for Lightwave. You know, sort of like Maya has Maya complete and Maya unlimited and XSI has Foundation, essentials, and Advnaced?
Basically this would mean having Lighwave in it's current implementation, and then having a higher cost version of Lightwave that would come with some advanced features that might be primarily useful to graphics professionals. Tools such as Advanced dynamic capabilities, fluids, hair and possibly even an improved core for better performance.
Or would you rather see Lightwave remain one version and Newtek strive to bring you such features all in one package and at one price?

Titus
08-07-2006, 10:11 AM
One version to rule them all, One version to find them, One version to bring them all, And in the darkness bind them. Sorry, couldn't resist.

Cesar Montero
08-07-2006, 10:13 AM
One version to its fullest capabillity.
I wouldn't like anything else!

GandB
08-07-2006, 10:16 AM
I'm going with the single version as well; although a few integrated plugins included would be nice...perhaps an "enhanced" version that includes many of the well-used and popular plugins, for another $100 or so. But then again, NT could just run another special for new users and a discounted price (group price) for current users; to get the plugin package. NT would just have to make a deal with the developers, if the could.

-Keith

TSpyrison
08-07-2006, 10:17 AM
Single version.

Wickster
08-07-2006, 10:27 AM
Sometimes choices are good...sometimes its not. Single version as well.

SP00
08-07-2006, 10:28 AM
I rather get everything as cheap as possible with as much as possible. LW is still the best 3D app deal in the industry. Actually one of the reason, I jump onto LW compare to Maya or Max. I don't think a teir system will get NT new users. Marketing just needs to try harder to give studios a reason to break the maya, max, xsi pipeline. I don't think ILM cares what tools they used, they just want to get the job done right and quickly. So even if LW9 or 10 is 5 times better than Maya, it would still be hard to convince a company like ILM to take the time out to get everyone up to speed on Lightwave. Also, many custom plugins were create inhouse for maya, so why would they throw all of that away and switch to LW. This is what the NT marketing team is up against and they need to find creative solutions to make these software transition as smooth as possible. Sorry, got OT a little bit.

digital verve
08-07-2006, 11:12 AM
Single version but developed to be top notch during the 9.x updates.

jasond
08-07-2006, 11:30 AM
I couldn't complain if they needed to bump the price to make it happen. I don't follow the 3d software scene very closely, so I could be way off, but it's seemed that they've really dropped the cost relative to their competitors. If that price adjustment is reflected in the development speed or options, I'd be happy to shell out a little more to accelerate things.

I'm not content (God forbid), but I'm committed to the v9 process. I suspect the cost vs. development speed / quality will be sorted out by v9.9 .

Eisenhower
08-07-2006, 11:31 AM
Single vr.


Tools such as Advanced dynamic capabilities, fluids, hair and possibly even an improved core for better performance.

Honestly, I think that if NT had those advanced features ready, they'd be out with vr.9 or 10 at least. I don't think they're holding back.

Cageman
08-07-2006, 11:52 AM
Single version here and I wouldn't mind if the price goes up with $100-$200 if it would allow NT to speed up the developement somewhat.

madjester
08-07-2006, 11:53 AM
I likes my single version just the ways its is.

Cageman
08-07-2006, 12:03 PM
Hmm..thinking about it, even $500 could be worth it _if_ this would let NT hire some more talent. However, I think it would be great to divide the package in to three price-categories. Students, Hobbyists and Proffesionals. Lets say LW cost $1000

Students: $100 - $200
Hobbyists: $500 - $600
Proffesionals: $1000

It is the same package for all, but students and hobbyists aren't allowed to use the app in commercial projects.

Would this be a good or bad idea?

Hipcheck
08-07-2006, 12:06 PM
why not let the hobbyists make some cash?
single version

Wickster
08-07-2006, 12:06 PM
Students: $100 - $200
Hobbyists: $500 - $600
Proffesionals: $1000

Student version is $299 with Printed Manual $199 I think without. Full versions, just with the license restrictions you just mentioned. :)

Hobbyist gets the same benefit as professionals, which is what i love about the single version. because some pros are hobbyists before.

hrgiger
08-07-2006, 12:32 PM
If it were an issue of money, and I'm not entirely sure that it is, I would much rather see them raise the price of Lightwave's only version then to split it up into 2 or three different versions. Of course, it still hasn't been shown that Newtek takes in any less money now that they've lowered the price to $895. They may be selling more units as a result.

Besides, I think a tiered version makes sense for a larger company but for a smaller company, it seems more productive to focus all your developers on managing one version.

SP00
08-07-2006, 12:34 PM
If the Student version was $299 or even $199, then they would find some other program to learn. Students don't have a preference nor do they have money, since they are new to everything and don't have a job. The best way to gain new users is to sell the student version dirt cheap. Once they get into the industry, can opt to have their employers purchase LW or get it on their own for commercial work. Hobbist, I don't think is necessary. How would you even decipher if the person is a hobbist or a pro? There is at least a Student ID for the education version.

Lottmedia
08-07-2006, 12:44 PM
Single version is why I went with LW in the first place. Hate the way Maya teases you with features you can't afford. As for the student pricing, there needs to be something. I paid 350$ or so for mine years back and I assure you I was an exception. Discovery mode is just not viable with the way that Hub works, you just can't see anything you make in Layout. They need some type or (useable) free version like Maya and others because that's what kids are going to learn on, what they can get free (we're talking about students here)

Casey :cat:

Cageman
08-07-2006, 12:55 PM
why not let the hobbyists make some cash?
single version

Well, they are hobbyists and doesn't pay the full price. :)

Wickster
08-07-2006, 12:59 PM
If the Student version was $299 or even $199, then they would find some other program to learn. Students don't have a preference nor do they have money, since they are new to everything and don't have a job. The best way to gain new users is to sell the student version dirt cheap. Once they get into the industry, can opt to have their employers purchase LW or get it on their own for commercial work. Hobbist, I don't think is necessary. How would you even decipher if the person is a hobbist or a pro? There is at least a Student ID for the education version.
It's not entirely bad though. Maya and XSI student version is about $350+ (don't remember excactly). But the best thing about about the LW version is that if that student ever graduates and decides to pursue his/her career in animation, he/she could just but the next .0 update and his student license instantly becomes a "commercial" copy. I don't see other apps doing that, from what i know anyway. :)

Yeah price isn't the option though. I don't want how "Shade" is being dealt with right now.
Shade LE = $99, Shade Designer = $299, Shade Pro = i forget...

Cageman
08-07-2006, 01:04 PM
Hobbist, I don't think is necessary. How would you even decipher if the person is a hobbist or a pro? There is at least a Student ID for the education version.

That is true, and there will certanly be people who would try to get away with that, however, noone would know if a student would use LW to model something that then goes into a Maya-pipleine at work, so you still got that problem.

Ohh, and yes... student-version must be cheaper. With the taxes etc here in Sweden, I had to pay $350 for the student license.

Cageman
08-07-2006, 01:06 PM
...he/she could just but the next .0 update and his student license instantly becomes a "commercial" copy. I don't see other apps doing that, from what i know anyway. :).

Yep, I'll proabably do that when LW10 rolls out, or maybe I will upgrade earlier (depending on my economy).

Tiger
08-07-2006, 01:10 PM
Single version.
If it`s good, don`t change it!

lilrayray77
08-07-2006, 01:34 PM
Is the manual is $199? wow. I never bought it and I just tought myself how to use the tools. Kinda happy since I got the manual free with the upgrade. I was looking at other packages when I was making my decision the different versions of the other software just confused me. I like how newtek has it going. And if there were an "advanced" version, it should be targeted at studios in which case it should be called something like "Lightwave 3d Studio Edition". Something sophisticated.

Lottmedia
08-07-2006, 01:37 PM
But the best thing about about the LW version is that if that student ever graduates and decides to pursue his/her career in animation, he/she could just but the next .0 update and his student license instantly becomes a "commercial" copy. I don't see other apps doing that, from what i know anyway. :)


That was another consideration is LW for me. 3DS Max had those stupid yearly contracts and Maya you had to start from scratch with the commercial so it's wasted investment (OK, you learn but...)


Casey :cat:

Dexter2999
08-07-2006, 01:44 PM
I don't see where different versions would be that much different than the current system. I mean it would allow NT to make more money by assimilating the companies that currently make the plug ins we drool over.

FPrime
WOrley
Dynamite Voxels
ZBrush

We already buy the basic version then start buying all the add ons.
What difference would it be if we are buying them from NT instead of Third Party?

tyrot
08-07-2006, 02:05 PM
dear wavers

single version. no question. Lw is different, simple, fast, one man's great friend for lots of 3d generated cash and SINGLE. that s why always attractive.

But i suggest these versions:

that version, this version, extreme version, lame version,
you-are-suck-but-since you-have-cash-get-that-simple-version version,
you-have-unlimited-sources-to-pay-us-more-money-with-our-every-commercially-sick-upgrades-version..
fat version, thin version, orgy version(unlimited in-puts), selfsatisfactory(hobbiest)version, one-night-stand version, catholic-marriage version, invisible version..
edgeless version, POINTLESS version, Polyfree version, I want to break free version, Hey! wait a minute version(one minute access time), No-render version, no-modeler version, no-hub version...rookie version, nookie version(you will have fred durst template only, it is like face robot with one character only)...you-cant-bring-me-down-version, fade-to-black version, HAL version(it will include "Dave, dont, Dave" voice over instead of render end beep)

do-it yourself version (you ll be simply given the dongle,very clean version, crash-free), hey-crash-free version or fullcrash version...

or

XSI version(yes this will be the greatest solution for xsians-who-still-waving-and-nagging, think about there will be one more window and XSI will be overthere and everything will be connected with one HUB, that Hub also will include HumbleVersion which has only Foundational XSI version.)

and of course

BEST version

Bog
08-07-2006, 03:10 PM
Single version.

I'm plenty X-Treeme, having things like Sasquatch, Dynamite and FPrime in my Utility Belt along with a slew of other 3rd party macguffins (as opposed to Locked Polymuffins), which have mainly paid for themselves (even if Dynamite never pays for itself, it's still enough fun to want to own).

Besides, if we start going the path of LightWave Extremities, then it's going to be rude meshes a-go-go and none of us want that.

A Mejias
08-07-2006, 03:39 PM
This was already done. They called it Inspire 3D and LightWave 3D.

Pavlov
08-07-2006, 04:03 PM
Single version, more powerful and more costly.
My straight opinion: LW should become as far as possible an unique app which implements at least history, instances, full blown Osnap, completely renewed GI/lighting engine, Nodal concept all over the app.
If it's all implemented well its right cost is around 1200 $.
Its current cost - too low - is forced by the fact many section are way older than any competitor. Solved this, hope it returns in its price range.

Paolo

scott61264
08-07-2006, 05:05 PM
I like add ons that are worthwhile

Truecoz
08-07-2006, 08:24 PM
:boogiedow One love - one heart - let's get together and everything's gonna be alright!:boogiedow -No rasta icons (curled up eyes smile with dreds)?

The one!

How about offer the complete version for free, but with limited rendering resolution and a watermark? And not 'Discovery Mode' either, full version! Houdini has an apprentice program that does this. I think NewTek should too.

Chris :yingyang:

hrgiger
08-08-2006, 02:29 AM
Well, I figured a majority of people would want only a single version of Lightwave but I didn't know that it would be such an overwhelming majority. I'm glad to know that most people feel the same about it.

Unlike the debate on whether modeler and Layout should be merged or not which the community seems pretty split over. Newtek has taken the best approach IMHO, by keeping modeler seperate but working to bring more modeler functionality into Layout.

Bog
08-08-2006, 04:45 AM
Thanks very much for posting a poll - given the way it's "one username, one vote" on these things, they can be a much better indicator of the opinion spread than a thread with a question in.

nmh
08-08-2006, 05:56 AM
oh..
so i vote for single version too!

Skinner3D
08-08-2006, 06:01 AM
Single Version. I liked the Newtek plugin page idea from one of the other threads.

hrgiger
08-08-2006, 10:50 AM
Thanks very much for posting a poll - given the way it's "one username, one vote" on these things, they can be a much better indicator of the opinion spread than a thread with a question in.


Yes, with the way the threads have gone, it's sometimes hard to get a feel for how the community feels about a given topic. The poll in this case clearly shows a preference for Lightwave to remain a single version.

Earl
08-08-2006, 11:26 AM
Exactly. The louder opinion isn't always the majority opinion. Thanks for the poll hrgiger.

jdomingo
08-08-2006, 08:25 PM
with versions, it will only benefit the business men and it will make the users frustrated. when you get married ,you only mary to one and that it.

archiea
08-08-2006, 11:25 PM
While the numbers in this poll reflect the niche market that an advanced version would cater to, (maya and XSI lowered their price to increase their market share, remember?), I posted a more accurate choice that refelcts the intent and possible impact (based on current models) of what a proposed tiered vs non tiered would offer.

http://www.newtek.com/forums/showthread.php?t=55273

Please vote honsetly, regarding what you would like to see as a customer and based upon how you use LW. Please feel free to comment if you need to elaborate.

archiea
08-09-2006, 01:19 AM
Neverko, what do you want then? Do you want the advanced char anim/3D tracker/native 3D painter/skin and muscle system/etc? Do you want them sooner or later/ Would you prefer a yearly subscription as Lighwolf had suggested?

Lightwolf
08-09-2006, 02:18 AM
My preference in this matter is purely economical as I'd rather spend a little over time than drop 1500-2000 dollars at once.
See, that's why I'd prefer to spend 200€ per year compared to XXX€ every now and then ;)
The former I and NT can plan with, the later is almost like a lottery ;)

(Just imagine you had to pay your appartement rent every now and then, with a more or less unknown sum :D )

Cheers,
Mike

Paul24
08-09-2006, 02:43 AM
Single version all the way :thumbsup:

Earl
08-09-2006, 11:13 AM
Sorry Archiea, but I think that hrgiger's poll is simpler and better suited for the situation. I don't like how wordy your poll is, because I don't agree with the words you've used for any of the options. I will not vote in the other poll.

SP00
08-09-2006, 12:15 PM
Also the wording of option 3 indicates that NT can never catch up to the other software at $795. That is simply not a true statement on pricing products. Look at Walmart vs. Nordstrom.

archiea
08-09-2006, 12:29 PM
I think I wrote earlier that I definitely want LightWave to stay as one packaged deal - not split up in cheap and expensive versions. I can live with the prices going up a bit and I could live with paying upgrade price for .5 releases, But I don't want to be left behind if I don't shell out for the USD 1500-2000 "advanced version", having only the cheapo version would suck.


Understood, but the reason why someof us proposed the "advanced" version is because, well, we consider the current version the "cheapo version that sucks". This is completely separate issue from the Inspire model... If newtek want to strip down LW into a version that is Inspire, thats something else.. I don;t see that advancing LW's feature sets. Similar to how Cinema 4D turned their single package into a bundle, that helped them push their software based on their feedback from studios like Imageworks..and they priced accordingly..



Also I don't like paying subscriptions for software. So basically, keep it one version but if money is the all important factor in getting these lacking features faster, then by all means raise the prices a bit again and maybe introduce 0.5 paid upgrades. But as always there will be an outcry from some people if 0.5 upgrades weren't free anymore. For me it wouldn't be a problem, if for example a 0.5 upgrade had enough great features like if 9.5 got better CA tools, fast modern GI rendering and hair, rock solidly implemented. Then I wouldn't mind paying USD 395 or something in that vein, for such an upgrade.


Thanks for being specific and realistic...



My preference in this matter is purely economical as I'd rather spend a little over time than drop 1500-2000 dollars at once. Also I firmly believe that one program with all features is best for LightWave and how people view it/will view it.

Thanks for the response... the pooint bein that the answer isn;t jsut a yes or no.. people want a single version of LW.. but also allof the advanced features.. it just doesn;t seem realistic considering the work that NT has ahead of them..

archiea
08-09-2006, 12:30 PM
(Just imagine you had to pay your appartement rent every now and then, with a more or less unknown sum :D )

Cheers,
Mike

I think thats what they all a variable rate mortgage!!!:D

archiea
08-09-2006, 12:48 PM
Sorry Archiea, but I think that hrgiger's poll is simpler and better suited for the situation. I don't like how wordy your poll is, because I don't agree with the words you've used for any of the options. I will not vote in the other poll.

Well its yoru choice.. but I do still like to ask.. As a single version, when do you think NT will be able to implelment the advanced features that I had outlined? Months? years? I;m not sure if NT knows, or if having an advanced version would accelerate much. this is all hypathetical, base on current philosophies in the marketplace. However, how fair is it to the users who want advanced features, but will not see it LW at any price? Should we just leave as some have said here?

archiea
08-09-2006, 12:55 PM
Also the wording of option 3 indicates that NT can never catch up to the other software at $795. That is simply not a true statement on pricing products. Look at Walmart vs. Nordstrom.

Thee is a reason why those advanced apps cost as much as they do. Consdering that ittakes NT years to come up with just a demo version of their app, while not leading in the training/education market.. it seems to defeat the purpose of a low price point.. They price LW to make it accessable, but its marketed like an exclusive product.... look at http://www.gnomon3d.com/, its nothing but a maya training school.. complete with a fastrack in maya class... While gnomen is no where near the only school, it does point to where the buck stops in vfx. 10 years ago it used to be LW having this type of exposure...

Bog
08-09-2006, 01:00 PM
Understood, but the reason why someof us proposed the "advanced" version is because, well, we consider the current version the "cheapo version that sucks".

And yet for thousands of studios the world over - my own included - LightWave is where the rubber meets the road. Strange, with so many motion pictures, television series' and Lesser Media successes behind it, you'd think we'd have realised it sucked and switched to something else by now.

Maybe I need to have my contact lens prescription changed?

archiea
08-09-2006, 03:18 PM
And yet for thousands of studios the world over - my own included - LightWave is where the rubber meets the road. Strange, with so many motion pictures, television series' and Lesser Media successes behind it, you'd think we'd have realised it sucked and switched to something else by now.

Maybe I need to have my contact lens prescription changed?

hey thats all fine, I'm not knocking the success... but it can be better.. After effects has a great toolset and user hsitory.. but it could be better.. especially before 7.0... Same with shake.. to the point where Apple pulled the plug and is doing a restart..

Folks here seem to be onthe defensive al the time, trying to prove how good LW is.. yet they are resisitant to face the true measures that it would take. I'm interested because LW has good roots in being a productionr elated 3D app,a s opposed to a computer science based app like many others that wear their technology ontheir sleeve. I'd love to see NT take that mindset and apply it to more higher end applications, instead of sticking to their old mantra.. it doesn;t quite apply to theis market with entry level versions of their competators are not only at a very similar price point, but with an aggressive assimilation tactics in schools and training.

Bog
08-09-2006, 03:30 PM
Nah, most of us are well aware of LightWave's faults, and how far it's come. We're also well aware of having had to spend time re-creating the whole underlying structure of the software to make it compatable with exciting new technologies, let alone implimenting same.

Also, most of us are very well aware of getting the crappy end of the stick when it comes to exposure. We know about the underhanded shennanegans that Other Software Providers have employed, in terms of everything from lax piracy control in educational facilities through to giving preferential price rates to those who neglect to mention that they also use LightWave or other software.

I get snitty sometimes because I see an awful lot of negativity on these forums, and all too often it seems to be from people who don't use the software in a pressured environment, or haven't actually done their homework on LightWave's capabilities, or even people who've just got a pet theory and won't let it die. It seems that for each thread saying "Hey, I got it to do this!" or "How to make a cool thing happen", there's three or four telling NT how to run their business, or saying "LW is crap, you should use Maya/XSI/Blender/OpticoPoopChute" or whatever.

It gets old.

Safe Harbor
08-09-2006, 03:33 PM
It's not entirely bad though. Maya and XSI student version is about $350+ (don't remember excactly). But the best thing about about the LW version is that if that student ever graduates and decides to pursue his/her career in animation, he/she could just but the next .0 update and his student license instantly becomes a "commercial" copy. I don't see other apps doing that, from what i know anyway. :)

This is not true. The person with the academic copy of LW must purchase a copy called "Academic to Commercial Upgrade". I think the price is the same as a regular upgrade, but the purchaser must specify that when ordering.

TSpyrison
08-09-2006, 04:34 PM
you should use Maya/XSI/Blender/OpticoPoopChute" or whatever.


OpticoPoopChute, does it make groaning noises when it renders? :D

Bog
08-09-2006, 04:40 PM
Really, you don't wanna know the noise it makes.

Dear God, the noise!

pixym
08-09-2006, 04:46 PM
Single version, more powerful and more costly.
My straight opinion: LW should become as far as possible an unique app which implements at least history, instances, full blown Osnap, completely renewed GI/lighting engine, Nodal concept all over the app.
If it's all implemented well its right cost is around 1200 $.
Its current cost - too low - is forced by the fact many section are way older than any competitor. Solved this, hope it returns in its price range.

Paolo

I am quite agree with that

mjcrawford
08-09-2006, 05:43 PM
I am for the single version; sure it would be nice to include more futures. But that is what upgrades are all about! If you want plugin’s go buy them! For those of us that cannot afford them, that is our problem.

Now, I am relatively new to LW compared to many of you, but seriously look at the differences from 7.5 to 9… do you really think that most of what you want won’t be in LW eventually? People were screaming for nodes.. Now you got nodes! The new cameras are way cool and the displacement hair is pretty cool as well.. I am not a big fan of massive amounts of plugin’s goofing up the works! Wait until NT has is done it right and can incorporate the new features without plugin’s rather than just toss a few popular ones in and bump up the price. Sure Maya ultimate has Fur, but most major projects end up creating there own hair subroutines anyway so what is the point of paying for plugin’s you may or may not use?? Out of the box LW can match almost any other 3d package out there and costs a lot less.

tyrot
08-09-2006, 07:58 PM
Sure Maya ultimate has Fur, but most major projects end up creating there own hair subroutines anyway so what is the point of paying for plugin’s you may or may not use?? .

dear mj

couple of months ago i read Joe Alter's new hair plugin update's review in 3d world. and reviewer was clearly stating.

"do you really need MAYA unlimited?" because he was explaining Alter's plugin was so much more better wiser and cost effective solution over Unlimited's fur solution..

best

wacom
08-09-2006, 11:44 PM
I say stop the "box store 'afication" of software! Pay up, get better stuff, or ship development to india so at least we can have the full "box store 'afication" with all the trimings!

Oh, and as I said in another post- no more goodies- no DF+, no Vue, just R&D and marketing please.

katsh
08-11-2006, 07:28 AM
personally,want advance version.
but for the Market,better be single version.

Lamont
08-14-2006, 04:26 PM
Different versions so people have more of a reason to turn their noses thusly *turns nose up*?

Keep it single, just make it better. Throwing more money at it won't make it better. Whatever NT is doing, has me buying it time after time. It's not cost that keeps me from Maya/3DS Max, it's just good stable software for what I use it for.

In the end we all want LW to be ace, and 9 makes me feel like I felt when 6.5 came around coming from v5.6. A tiered system isn't the way to go.