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sudac20
08-04-2006, 10:33 PM
I honestly don’t understand why everyone is jumping down kfiram’s throat. What is wrong with his question? I am long time LW user and would love to see LW compete in the “big leagues” again. Unfortunately I too have been a little concerned with LW’s direction. I have been able to create some great stuff with LW and continue to do so but LW is becoming somewhat of a minor player. I appreciate the price cut but and feel some nice improvements have been made in v.9 - but when clients come to me and I mention LW, they are starting to think “low budget” or “cheap” and that is not good.

The bottom line is we all need to make $. Appearance is very important to the bigger clients. Unfortunately they don’t know much about the industry, but they do know the names Maya, XSI, MAX, and even C4D(in Europe)… all I am saying Kfiram like myself should be able to express our concerns about LW’s future without backlash. When I read his thread I thought “great question, what are LW future plans, are they going for beginners/ armatures or are they going to step up to plate and compete?” I truthfully don’t know that answer. If U think U do great. But keep in mind that while “big boys” fight it out for top dog there is a lot of money to be made in the 2nd tear market. If I owned a business I would go where the best chance is to make money. Last time I checked Newtek was a business.

archiea
08-04-2006, 10:46 PM
well, for starters, just over a year ago, we had this...

http://www.newtek.com/news/releases/08-01-05a.html


NT had a newsletters specifically talking about LW's future

.. that has been updated with this...

http://www.newtek.com/news/releases/08-01-06e.html

So I do have to say that there has been feedback from NT as to their goals.. albiet in a press release kind of manner.

Im more shocked by how the community responded. some reponding only to say that they arenot responding.. Its like someone calling you up just to tell you that they want to ignore you...

BazC
08-05-2006, 02:29 AM
Im more shocked by how the community responded. some reponding only to say that they arenot responding.. Its like someone calling you up just to tell you that they want to ignore you...

Well asking people not to respond to a thread on a public forum was asking for trouble, I nearly posted a sarcastic comment myself!

bryphi7
08-05-2006, 02:30 AM
I think he just wanted to avoid what happen, and get an answer from NT.

tyrot
08-05-2006, 02:56 AM
If your clients care more about which software is used than the end result, then good luck working with them.
dear neverko

excellent point. They are impossible to satisfy. I knew them. I served them. I told them This is Made in MAYA. They were Jumping with Joy, talking about Mental Ray... Then i invited them to my room. Hit F9 . They Watched it. And they said ... "What? ...It wasnt MAYA..HOW MUCH LW was?" I said. "You guys are misguided for years." I Delivered the Job got the money. They still dont understand.

There are MANY MANY MANY clients out there need to be satisfied with fast, reliable 3d software with excellent 3rd party support. And that software is Lightwave.

Best

SCS5
08-05-2006, 04:57 AM
Unfortunately, name recognition IS a huge part of this industry, like it or not. And that's a fact. I've lost jobs because I told potential clients I was using Lightwave. They had the attitude, Oh that's cute, but we need the high end stuff for our spots! (Same thing for VT4 vs. Avid!) :thumbsdow They wanted Max, Maya or XSI the software they use for all the "movies" This is what all their people told them they needed....Max, Maya, XSI, Good Marketing!
Newtek needs to change the perception that Lightwave is for hobbyists & Beginners in animation.. & this can only be done with aggressive marketing, & refining the work-flow big-time!
I know the 9X cycle is on the way, I hate to say it, but right now, I'm less than thrilled with the 1st release. There's been virtually no consolidation of tools in Modeler. New tools seem to be thrown in without any real thought on how this or that tool will integrate with existing tools. As has been said before, we get a new edge tool, but, instead of integrating this into the existing tool-set it is getting it's own set of tools for manipulation. This is not the way to consolidate tools! Same old Newtek on that front! Saying there's modeling in Layout right-now is an Insult. I know it's coming, but, I think for many, this was one of the main reasons to upgrade to 9. This is one of the main things that's holding Lightwave's animation capabilities back. I know I'm beating a dead horse on that subject. Once again, Plugins still don't play together. New tools just seem slapped in. New Camera, but no preview? Nodes, sorta?, Edges?, cclark, kinda? Speed, sometimes? for many 9X is do or die. I want Newtek to succeed big-time, I know their doing their best, but, based on this first 9X release, I'm very woried...I know I'll probably get blasted for this post, but it's an honest opinion of what I think.

Emmanuel
08-05-2006, 07:10 AM
I think myself and many others exspected NT to announce the rebirth of LW's character animation toolset for the next updates, instead we get 3D motion blur and stuff like that.
I don't read anything about "this time modeling in Layout will work", I don't read anything about "this time we update modeler so that edges can be weighted AND knifed in CC-mode".
Nothing about tool consolidation, instanced, references.
Nothing about an easy few-clicks normal mapping workflow for game development.
It feels like NT started to have a focus and lost it again in their myriad of little patches and band-aids here and there :(
Instead of focusing and strengthening every part after the other, they again drive every screw the program has, if it makes sense now or not.
5-times speed increase in modeler is welcome of course.
Another SSS-algo is not needed at this time.
I feel like NT has subcontracted programmers who have their own ideas of what's important to THEM, not the CLIENTS and USERS, or how can someone explain why CC-SDS don't work with knifing after weighting while we soon get our THIRD version of SSS while nodes still can not be nested like in XSI ?
Or why edges are not deletable so easy but with "edge dissolve", which could make You think that these edges are again just a patch, not truly integrated like the other elements.
I am wondering if NT should fear about credibility amongst what's left of the userbase, because Jay's first letter led me to believe that this was a groundbreaking, earthshattering release.
In the end it was a nice effort that leaves to be desired.
There's this joke I tell my buddy when NT announces some new "groundbreaking" innovation, and I say like "Yeah, it's like what every other tools has for years, but for LW it is indeed absolutely new."
LW becomes more and more about excuses: we have edges but they don't work perfectly yet.We have SSS but it is slow. We have n-gons, but weighting and knifing does't work.We have instances sorta in Layout but not as they are commonly seen in the rest of the world.
Oh, and LW has radiosity ! Although not merely as editable, fast or good looking as other 3D apps'.
I really hope NT sorts this out, I feel people are loosing their patience, price drop or not.If You see that You can have hair and volumetrics nor even for XSI Fnd, even LWs rather low price is not more than an excuse.

Oh, and for christ's sake, NT, do something with the documentation !!
It's a joke, the app gets more and more complicated, and the docu gets worse with each revision !
Dan already said his Inside 9 will be the last book.What will NT do when there is nor more Inside book for new LWs ?

PS:On the POSITIVE side: there IS progress going on, I never saw LW update so fast in such a short time, although its because I was participating in the beta testing.Had I been a "normal" customer, the 7 month delay until release would have made me nervous.

tyrot
08-05-2006, 08:00 AM
I really hope NT sorts this out, I feel people are loosing their patience, price drop or not.If You see that You can have hair and volumetrics nor even for XSI Fnd, even LWs rather low price is not more than an excuse.

Dan already said his Inside 9 will be the last book.What will NT do when there is nor more Inside book for new LWs ?


dear Emmy

i think if you really wanna see people who already lost their patience, you should check Autodesk forums. New MAX and MAYA updates, i m talking about.

I m pretty excited about LW 9. Responses in these forums from directly Newtek team simply implies things are getting ok. More licenses i will sure get this year. Price is awesome. Future is promising. Yes some tools needs more functionality but it will be achieved in time..Why? you know it, i know it, they know it.

Losing patience?? NEVER. More support? DEFINITELY.

And i love inside Lightwave Books. But it will be still Ok if Dan leaves the scene. There are so informative writers in our community (and their books also my primary sources (warner, albee, jerrard, boughen, wood, hennigan and many others)). They will fill Dan's absence(if there is such a thing). Kurv should be busy by now:)

BEST

Dave Jerrard
08-05-2006, 08:15 AM
It's just another variation of the gold pen syndrome. In a copywriting course I was in, we were given the task of writing an ad for a product - any product - and the whole selling point of the ad was about how much expensive the product was, not how cost efficient it was. Like a gold pen. Why do people pay hundreds, or even thousands of dollars for a pen? Because it's shiny & gold, that's why. It doesn't necessarily write better or faster, or even correct your mistakes. It's gold. That's it. It's gold, and it's expensive and if you have one, you have somehting that sets you apart from other people. Owning a gold pen means you got status baby! It says, I make so much money I can afford this stupid little piece of flash. It doesn't work better, it just looks better. And eventually, this leads the owner, or anyone interested in getting such an item, to believe that if it costs that much, it must be better.

It's not just pens though. Jewelery, watches, shoes, sunglasses, cars, Hi Fi equipment, etc. all have their own versions of it. There are actually people that pay over $100 per foot for cables to hook up Hi-Fi equipment, even though there's no difference between those expensive cables and more moderately priced ones of the same gauge (not those cheapo out-of-the-box ones). I've seen people rave about how much better their digital audio sounds when they use a way-overpriced optical cable over a cheaper one. News flash... It's a digital signal... If a cable is modifying that, then you're not getting the same signal out that was put in, so it's not going to sound like much at all, except garbage if anything.

But they paid so much more for it that they're going to be determined that they heard some improvement over other cables, even though there is none.

Software isn't excluded from this sort of attitude. Alias, SoftImage, and a few others came out in the 80's, and were priced exorbitantly high - $70,000 for the full Alias package, not including the SGI to run it on (about $10,000+ at the time). Don't get me wrong, it was good. It still is, but the price is what got the attention of executive types. If someone was using this stuff, they must be really good to be able to afford it, right? It was about as much to with the quality of the work someone was doing with it as it was about bragging rights for just owning it. And right away, the bragging started in all kinds of magazine articles. No-one really cared if you used Photoshop, or some other off the shelf software, but is was a real gloat fest to mention you used Alias, or TDI, or WaveFront, and sure enough, people were dropping thsoe names as much as possible. Which leads to another interesting phsychology experiment I learned about in advertising...

Name recognition. Earlier in the 80s, and experiment was done to measure how much information people processed from different sources. For one week/month (one of those, I can't remember now), a billboard was posted in several places, with only a photo of some completely unknown person, and their name on the billboard somewhere. No products, no message, nothing else. Just a photo and the name. You have more info on a library card. After the time period was up, the billboards were taken down again. After that, random people were asked if they recognized a photo of the person, or their name. Most respondents knew at least one of these. Very few knew why. After all, the person's photo only ever appeared on the billboards, but never anywhere else.

So we get the same thing happening with software, as well as other products. Everyone knows about Lambourghini or Ferrari, yet there's so few of these seen every day (unless you're one of the gold-pen owning lucky few who owns one of these too). If you're a car fanatic, you'll know some of the other names, like Astin Martin, Vector, and a few others, and you could still manage to not ever see one in person. Likewise with Mac or Microsoft. These names are pretty much household names now.

If you do anything with graphics, you're bound to have heard about Alias or SoftImage as well. This doesn't mean that you've necessarily seen them in person, but you've heard the name. But while some products rule the high cost scene, others pop up that aren't so high priced, and thus, don't command the same amount of bragging rights, and are not as well known. Many of these are just as good as their more expensive brethren, sometimes better, and sometimes worse.

It's a good bet that not many people outside the fanatic circles will have heard of the Eliica, or the Venturi Fetish, or the Tesla Roadster for example. Yes, there are electric cars that can outperform a Porsche - a brand that you probably have heard of. Likewise, people new to 3D animation may not know about C4D, Sculpt, Blender, Maxwell, or LightWave, but chances are, they've heard about the big expensive ones.

There's also the issue of training & schools. Schools teach what they can get their hands on. You have IBM and the schooling system to thank for the widespread use of IBM PC compatibles. IBM gave free computers to schools early on, and then the schools were training people to program on those computers. In a few years, there were a lot of computer programmers graduating & hitting the job market, knowing how to program an IBM. Companies looking to hire programmers had a vast pool of IBM programmers to pick from, and so, the choice was simple, get a computer than these guys could work with. IBM did a killing on sales then. And there were more jobs for IBM programmers, so there were more courses to teach it.

This also happens with software. Alias, Wavefront, SoftImage, etc, were not exactly the sort of thing most people could just pick up in an afternoon. You generally had to be trained on it, and new training centers were popping up fast, even in the early 90's. At this same time, the 'smaller' 3D apps were getting their footholds in the hobbyist circles and independent studios. When I started learning LightWave, it was new, and there was no training available for it for a few months (at least in my area at the time). Most people were self taught in their 3D apps. When smaller studios started seeing what these smaller apps could do, they took notice. Especially with LightWave, which was bundled with the Video Toaster, a very popular video suite that started the whole desktop video industry. Anyone with a Video Toaster had a pretty powerful (very limited by today's standards) 3D animation application, and it was integrated into their edit suite. At $1595, it was way cheaper than the big names, but it could do just about everything the big guys could do. And it was easier to learn too! No more having to figure out how to connect some isoparm thingamajigs with a nurb - is that a word? - or how to apply a lattice to a, did they mean lettuce? Huh? Nppe. It had a polygonal modeler, which was not as powerful as a nurbs modeler, but it was easier to work with, and that meant jobs could be done fast.

But it was ONLY $1595. Cheap by the gold-pen owners' standards. Who wants cheap? We want people to know know how great we are because of how much we can afford! We want people to know that our other car is also a Porsche.

And so it goes. The big expensive software has the name recognition, has the training in place because of its initial learning curves, and got itself a nice self-propogating business cycle. The less expensive software has a steep uphill battle to get the same kind of respect, which may very well be impossible with the gold pen syndrome being so prevalent - especially in this industry, which is all about image & egos.

The smaller guys did make the big ones take notice earlier on around 2001, when suddenly, everyone seemed to have a big price drop, which seemed to oddly coincide with a price drop on LightWave before that. But they noticed the small guys starting to take a bite out of their cookie, and they didn't want that. So they fought back like big bullies - by playing dirty. Deals were made with studios for huge discounts, on the condition that those studios don't mention any competing software was used. Certain magazines would not mention competing software in return for nice big advertising deals. Even articles would occasionally name the wrong software. And even producers & directors, who only know about the expensive brand names, insist that these are the only things to be used in their projects, regardless of whether it's the right tool or not - it's gotta be the gold pen, nothing less. LightWave and other apps are used a lot more often than they're given credit for in print. And they're not mentioned because there's usually one of those deals going on to prevent it.

The last few years haven't helped the situation with LightWave, for reasons it's best not to get into. But over the past several months, the amount of improvement on LW9 has fully restored my trust in it. Around 8.0, I was pretty livid with the situation, and was seriously considering other options. Am I 100% happy with LW9? **** no. I'll never be fully 100% happy. There will always be something else I want - faster rendering always being in the list somewhere. :) But I'm more impressed with this update than any other. The work that's been going on under the hood is opening up so many new possibilities, and it's finally getting the core up to date for the first time in many years. I'm looking forward to the next release more than any other update I can remember, and that's going all the way back to LW1.0. If it takes time to do it right, I'm all for it. I'm tired of those rushed releases.

He Who Wishes He Could Work With Vue As Easily As With LightWave.

tyrot
08-05-2006, 09:01 AM
dear mr.jerrard

he who writes so clear, so informative, so objective

and me who keeps reading and reading and reading..


Best

SCS5
08-05-2006, 09:04 AM
dear Emmy

Yes some tools needs more functionality but it will be achieved in time..Why? you know it, i know it, they know it.

And i love inside Lightwave Books. But it will be still OK if Dan leaves the scene. There are so informative writers in our community (and their books also my primary sources (warner, albee, jerrard, boughen, wood, hennigan and many others)). They will fill Dan's absence(if there is such a thing). Kurv should be busy by now:)

BEST
Problem is based on what I've seen in this first 9X release I Don't know it.
As far as the Lightwave book situation goes. Why can't Newtek write a decent manual? I don't want to have to buy additional books to learn a new version! Dan's books are AWESOME!! But buying all the additional books, Textures, Lighting, Rigging, Etc. adds hundreds of dollars to the price of every upgrade. The manuals for Max, Maya, & XSI are virtual encyclopedia's of knowledge. Why can't Newtek properly document it's own software?..:confused:

Bog
08-05-2006, 09:22 AM
Weeeeelllll, looking at eBay, I can get a copy of some Avid editing software for under $200 bucks.

Maya PLE is free.

If large studios insist on being stoopid then I have no compunctions about lying to them about the precise role their beloved gold pen plays in their production. I know it's a substandard situation, but with the sort of underhanded skullduggery (not the words I'd use, but the forum Decency Filter would have my thoughts as something like rat **** sons of *****es at the very least) it seems the only way to fight back is with the same kind of dishonest nastiness as Dave's described.

Ho hum. There are ways...

SCS5
08-05-2006, 09:31 AM
4) Newtek - This was obviously the first booth I attended. Sadly, I was somewhat disappointed in the presentations. It didn't offer the variety that Autodesk or even XSI offered. They had a smaller projection screen. It seems superficial, but a big screen does have an impact on first impression, especially to all the visually oriented people at the show. The Q&A/demo panel at the back was ok, but it didn't seem inviting. Overall, I didn't gain much knowledge from that booth. Also, where is LW9 Demo Disc Sorry guy, I love you, but I'm only saying this in hopes you will beat out the other guys next year. .





This is what NT has been doing for years... Its like Lw presentation for LW users.. like a user group meetting, not a Siggraph caliber presentation. 3 or 4 years ago you had folks slamming the inferno regarding what was doable in Aura at the time. All it Showed was their ignorance in Inferno. Not to mention the demo artist was just unprofessional.

A coupe of years ago they had essentailly a reinuion of Kiki and some other folks... while that was fun for the "fans", it just felt "old".. like an old high Shool reunion, because its complete irrelevant to new users.



I have asked NT for this for years.. YEARS... It seems to just rub them the wrong way..its like they want to be presented as hobbyist.... more and more it was growing closer to Hash rather than the presentation from companies like dicreet.

It just seems so inbred.. there is nothing fresh.. its even lacking professionally.




Again, we have been asking for LW demo disk since time immemorial. nothing.. What makes LW so special that it doesn;t need to have a demo disk?
:thumbsdow :thumbsdow :thumbsdow :thumbsdow :thumbsdow :thumbsdow :thumbsdow :thumbsdow :thumbsdow

NT, this the impression from a first time attendee...or.. a "first impression".... take it to heart.. less evangelizing, (I swear,is that a texas thing?),less catering to the LW fanbase, more demonstrations, More marketing to new users. Slick it up a bit.

These were summaries from Sigggraph......Like I said MARKETING!
If you keep shooting your self in the foot, sooner or later you won't be able to walk anymore........

cresshead
08-05-2006, 10:06 AM
the 'golden pen' view sorta fall's flat on it's face ...if you add Z-BRUSH into the mix..it's cheap but it's considered hi-end...loads of studios have it in their pipeline...
same with VUE..ilm has it in their pipline and VUE is also cheap pricewise....
you don't see z brush or vue advertised as a hobbist application just because the price is low....

lightwave should be marketed better.

Dave Jerrard
08-05-2006, 10:13 AM
the 'golden pen' view sorta fall flat on it's face if you add Z-BRUSH into the mix..it's cheap but it's considered hi-end...loads of studios have it in their pipeline...same with VUE..ilm has it in their pipline and view is also cheap pricewise....you don't see z brush or vue advertised as a hobbist application just because the price is low....Well it doesn't fall flat. There are exceptions to everything. Those do kinda float around, being difficult to nail down because they're different - especially Z-Brush. I'll call those apps silver pens. :thumbsup:




lightwave should be marketed better.
No argument here!
:agree:

He Who Also Believes Anything Can Be Marketed Better.

kfiram
08-05-2006, 10:17 AM
1. The entire "golden pen" argument is ridiculous.
It's not about price, it's about features and usability.
LW is lacking basic AND advanced tools. Take it as it is.
Even Newtek, I'm sure, would admit to that.

2. I've emailed my question to Newtek and am awaiting response.

3. Regarding the original thread: my bad. I should have said something like:
"Guys, let's not turn this into a discussion, and give Newtek the time to answer". The "please don't reply" comment was asking for trouble in this volatile neighbourhood (which kind of makes me feel at home...).

cresshead
08-05-2006, 10:19 AM
then maybe lightwave should be doing something 'DIFFERENT' in pushing their app forward...rather than copying xsi, max or maya's toolsets wholesale and praying for studios to go with lightwave...maybe if lightwave had a few amazing things it 'did so well'...like 'top banana well' then maya based studio's would add it into their workflow just as they have with VUE and Z brush...

the only thing that jumps to my mind for lightwave is that of F Prime..which of course is 3rd party....now if lightwave got that capability BUILT into the core and was OWNED by newtek and WORKED with everything including newtork rendering then i'd say that this would be 1 item to tick as lightwave ONLY has this...and start to SHOUT the fact in marketing...

of course a modeling / character rigging or special fx [particle/volumetrics could also set newtek apart from maya, max and xsi too...

currently if i'm not mistaken there's not much that's 'BEST of BREED' in lightwave 9...i'm not saying it's rubbish as i have 2 seats myself but there's nothing 'WOW' as i understand it in lw9 if you were a maya, max xsi user taking a glance at the opposition...

Dave Jerrard
08-05-2006, 10:34 AM
1. The entire "golden pen" argument is ridiculous.That's your opinion. It's also fact. Otherwise, there would be no gold pens. Who would buy them otherwise?


It's not about price, it's about features and usability.Price also plays a part. You can't shrug that off. Would you pay $5000 for LightWave as it is now? How about $10,000, $20,000... I doubt many people would do that. I wouldn't. I did pay for the LW9 upgrade though, as I assume you have. So price does play a pretty big part.



He Who Thought The Air In California Was Bad.

Bog
08-05-2006, 10:35 AM
rather than copying xsi, max or maya's toolsets wholesale and praying for studios to go with lightwave...

"Copying other studios" is something NewTek has a spectacular track-record for not-doing. The whole point of SpeedEdit for example is *NOT* doing what Avid and everything else has been doing from the year Dot, to chuck away the legacy gunk that slows down workflow and to redo it from scratch better than the legacy ways.

We're going to see an awful lot of that kind of thinking in the 9.x cycle. To be honest, I've seen enough of the "Gold Pen" syndrome to know it's a fact (and nicely expressed, Dave) in the last 9 years of building up my ickle company.

Marketting? Yes, I'd love it if there was a higher profile, better recognition and that the pseudo-extortion of which Dave spoke didn't go on. Still, there are always ways to increase awareness and market penetration, and marketting really is bloody difficult - especially if people won't carry your ads, and won't admit to using your software.

SCS5
08-05-2006, 10:43 AM
[QUOTE=Bog
Marketting? Yes, I'd love it if there was a higher profile, better recognition and that the pseudo-extortion of which Dave spoke didn't go on. Still, there are always ways to increase awareness and market penetration, and marketting really is bloody difficult - especially if people won't carry your ads, and won't admit to using your software.[/QUOTE]

One of Newtek's main problem's is their trade show presence...It's HORRIBLE!..Remember NAB..Kikki potty mouth?? That's definitely one of the reasons so many other companies don't take em seriously.

cresshead
08-05-2006, 10:44 AM
exactly...re speed edit..that's WHY i'm VERY eager to go get speed edit...so much more 'out there' than premiere's main 'copying' competitor..final cut..

lightwave did have some years that it had a few items over the competition...
back in 1999 lightwave had cel shader capability built in where no one else did and this gained lightwave a upperhand in the anime studio market over in japan... we need some of that ''one step a head'' thinking back in lightwave 9.x

kfiram
08-05-2006, 10:48 AM
I'm not saying there is no "golden pen" syndrome.
I'm saying it's irrelevant in this context, or in the context of any of the other 2 threads.
My threads weren't about price. I'm not seeking a higher-priced LW (Why would I? It's not like I have money falling out of my pockets).
I'm seeking a BETTER LW. I have no interest in paying more for the same old LW, but I am interested in paying more for a BETTER LW.

Bog
08-05-2006, 10:54 AM
lightwave did have some years that it had a few items over the competition...

There was some time lost due to the Luxology schizm, but looking at 9.x as a power-user, there's never been an update like this. Ever. That's just a simple fact, looking all the way back to the Amiga. Softimage cruised for a couple of years as it's deep structures were written to properly incorporate new technologies. That's what's been happenning with LightWave - like a swan, gliding along serenely above the surface, pedalling away like billy-oh behind the scenes. The new advances really show that NT have their traction back, and things haven't looked this good in years.


I'm seeking a BETTER LW. I have no interest in paying more for the same old LW, but I am interested in paying more for a BETTER LW.

Have you actually upgraded to 9? If so, have you tried reading the manual?

hrgiger
08-05-2006, 11:09 AM
I'm not saying there is no "golden pen" syndrome.
I'm saying it's irrelevant in this context, or in the context of any of the other 2 threads.
My threads weren't about price. I'm not seeking a higher-priced LW (Why would I? It's not like I have money falling out of my pockets).
I'm seeking a BETTER LW. I have no interest in paying more for the same old LW, but I am interested in paying more for a BETTER LW.


But kfiram, Newtek is honestly delivering a better Lightwave and they are are doing so at a reduced cost from what we were paying over a year ago which is also less then we were paying a few years before that. Lightwave 9 may not seem like the most significant upgrade to you but a lot of work has gone on under the hood and it will make it much easier to bring great features to Lightwave in the near future. If all this internal core work had not been done, then this upgrade would be no better then the upgrade to 7 or 8 because they would have been piling a lot of new stuff on a shaky foundation. Newtek has done the necessary work and yet not completely went dark while they completed the work and bringing us some new features to hold at least a lot of us over.
Lightwave 9 brings us several industry standard featues such as the Node editor, edges, ngons, faster rendering and new shading methods such as SSS. But more importantly, Lightwave 9 is the first release showing the results of the restructing of the core of Lightwave so I think perhaps just a bit more patience is in order while we see what the 9.x cycle will bring. We already know a few things we can expect to see such as even better SSS, modeler OGL enhancements (Jay Roth says about 5X as fast as it is now), Universal binary for the Mac platform as well as a few other things that were presented this year at Siggraph. In addition, we have been promised a re-implementation of the character animation toolset which for me, would be worth the upgrade in itself.

kfiram
08-05-2006, 11:13 AM
Have you actually upgraded to 9? If so, have you tried reading the manual?

What's that got to do with anything?
Yes, I've upgraded to 9 and I like it. But believe it or not, I want it to be even better. Can you fathom that? Can you grasp the concept of something that is even better than your precious LW9?

Dave Jerrard
08-05-2006, 11:13 AM
I'm not saying there is no "golden pen" syndrome.
I'm saying it's irrelevant in this context, or in the context of any of the other 2 threads.It's highly relevant. Ignoring it will not make it go away. In fact, it's what you've been arguing for in the other thread.

He Who Sees LightWave As More Of A Metal Pen With A USB Drive In It Right Now.

kurv
08-05-2006, 11:13 AM
We are working VERY hard on most of the topics talked about here... but if you want to see something specific, let me know. Post them here, thanks!

Bog
08-05-2006, 11:34 AM
What's that got to do with anything?
Yes, I've upgraded to 9 and I like it. But believe it or not, I want it to be even better. Can you fathom that? Can you grasp the concept of something that is even better than your precious LW9?

That's a bit confrontational, don't you think? I just think it's obvious that there's a rapid sequence of big improvements happenning. You've implied that 9 is the same as 8, which it patently isn't.

SCS5
08-05-2006, 11:44 AM
That's a bit confrontational, don't you think? I just think it's obvious that there's a rapid sequence of big improvements happenning. You've implied that 9 is the same as 8, which it patently isn't.

Bog, You want me to send you some boxing gloves:) I agree that 9's better than what we've had in the past, but, I'm a little worried based on this first release, of how seriously Newtek's re-thinking the intigration of new tools into the workflow....Let's all hope for the best!:thumbsup:

metahumanity
08-05-2006, 11:53 AM
We are working VERY hard on most of the topics talked about here... but if you want to see something specific, let me know. Post them here, thanks!


Cool!

I´d like to see what´s in store regarding rigging, controlable bone/joint deformations (Smartskinning) and IK/FK switching on regular bones.

bryphi7
08-05-2006, 01:53 PM
2. I've emailed my question to Newtek and am awaiting response.

I was really interested in the response to that question. If you do get an answer could you post it, or PM me.

Celshader
08-05-2006, 02:00 PM
Can you fathom that? Can you grasp the concept of something that is even better than your precious LW9?

Sure. It's called LW9.x.

richcz3
08-05-2006, 02:00 PM
Dave Jerrard - Before the big price break in 2001, I (and many of my collegues) found out about LW v4 and its use in Babylon 5.
We knew about the cost of Alias software but never thought to venture into 3D territory. When we found out about LW4 Beta for the PC, we all purchased copies. The fact that commercial TV was using a package we could afford drove our ambition to learn as much of it as we could. We spent entire weekends working together to figure Lightwave out.

In fact I think Lightwaves innovation and industry use spike was about 5.6 or 6 well before the big price cut. Its industry use was still very relevant. There were multiple TV productions and small studios here in Los Angeles actively using Lightwave. Be sure that Lightwave centric magazines had plenty of material to write about. Ahh remember the days....

For me it felt like people developing LW were resting on their larels. Innovation languished...look how many productions use Lightwave syndrome.
Marketing only does so much. The product must deliver. For the end user you may get away feature short one release cycle, but by the second, many will bail to (percieved) greener pastures.

LW8 was the closest I came to bolting to Maya or XSI. In the end the costs for both vs time to learn them to suit clients needs killed that motion.

As for the perceived greener pastures I wrote about, just check the rancor going on with the New Maya 8 release. Hey their modeler has a bridge tool now. There are plenty of people upset about paying for what they see as short shrift release. If Autodesk has plans to keep that up, you can bet that people/small studios will excercise their options. Something NT really needs to get aggressive about.

Bog
08-05-2006, 02:22 PM
Sure. It's called LW9.x.

Gee, Jen! Would that be the new features that NewTek were demoing at SIGGRAPH that they traditionally give us absolutely free?

;)

bryphi7
08-05-2006, 02:26 PM
And like the old saying goes..."You get what you pay for"!
Many of us here don't want free tools. we want good reliable tools that are well implemented and work with one another.

Bog
08-05-2006, 02:37 PM
And like the old saying goes..."You get what you pay for"!

Yup. Absolutely. The Mac Universal Binary, anti-aliasing independant full 3D temporally-sampled motion blur and AA-independant Depth of Field are complete throw-aways. Do forgive me. I'm a dolt.


Many of us here don't want free tools. we want good reliable tools that are well implemented and work with one another.

That's why I keep buying LightWave. Ta.

bryphi7
08-05-2006, 02:47 PM
Well, from what I read the new AA and blur aren't going to be fully implemented so we are still going to gave the old versions as well. Whats that make 3 different motion blurs that we have now. I would much rather have gotten the rest of the V9.0 feature list that I did already pay for!

CC that are like the rest of the other apps that use them, No we get yet another half measure.

modeling in layout, No we get yet another half measure.

modeler OGl


You know what I mean, All the stuff we already paid for. Not more new tools thrown in that aren't going to be fully functional..

SCS5
08-05-2006, 02:59 PM
Well, from what I read the new AA and blur aren't going to be fully implemented so we are still going to gave the old versions as well. Whats that make 3 different motion blurs that we have now. I would much rather have gotten the rest of the V9.0 feature list that I did already pay for!

CC that are like the rest of the other apps that use them, No we get yet another half measure.

modeling in layout, No we get yet another half measure.

modeler OGl


You know what I mean, All the stuff we already paid for. Not more new tools thrown in that aren't going to be fully functional..

:agree:

I'm all for happy, fluffy, I love it, All other 3D software Sucks, Lightwave Rocks, look at what we got that wasn't on the list.......NOT!!....Forget the Fluff. Focus on the List of 9.0 features we were promised almost a year ago.

.......................and not a year from now! PLEEEEASE!:cry:

Bog
08-05-2006, 03:07 PM
Forgive me if I'm worgn (sic), but weren't we promised those in the 9.x cycle, which is the program we purchased, rather than in the 9.0 release?

I'm pretty sure I read it right. Either way, I'm cheerfully making a comfortable living from my investment. My main issue is that I'd rather be working with a team, and dealing with longer-duration projects. That's not really a NewTek issue, 'cause as far as I can tell, the stuff I've got works fine for making telly with, and the new stuff they've promised is turning up at a reasonable speed.

Then again, it may just be the jetlag talking. Hey, I managed to afford a flight to Boston, a nice hotel for a week, and a decent lifestyle while I was over there, and the profit I've turned with LightWave generated every penny. That sort of thing makes me feel all warm 'n' fuzzy and positive about things. Y'know?

bryphi7
08-05-2006, 03:18 PM
I am not even going to get started with you bog...Am am very glad that LW paid for you to go to siggraph, that is most excellent. Flash paid for me to work from the beach for the last month, very relaxing.

If you are pleased with LW and NT, that is also great for you...I am not! I believe that they fell about 1000 miles short of what was promised.

I am perfectly fine with us not agreeing on every little LW issue. I will still be able to sleep tonight.:)

SCS5
08-05-2006, 03:24 PM
Forgive me if I'm worgn (sic), but weren't we promised those in the 9.x cycle, which is the program we purchased, rather than in the 9.0 release?

Modeling in Layout? YES
Consolidation of tools, YES
Faster OGL, YES

Originally these were said to be in 9.0, not 9X cycle. That's why I pre-paid.
The fact that these would not be in 9.0 came after they had my money.

bryphi7
08-05-2006, 03:31 PM
Modeling in Layout? YES
Consolidation of tools, YES
Faster OGL, YES

Originally these were said to be in 9.0, not 9X cycle. That's why I pre-paid.
The fact that these would not be in 9.0 came after they had my money.


Yes, that is also why I prepaid, and like you, it wasn't till after I paid that the list was changed.

Bog
08-05-2006, 03:56 PM
I'm just calling it as I see it, and as far as I could tell, NT have kept their word. *shrugs* The way I read it, it said "This will start in 9.0 and continue in the 9.x cycle", which is what's happenned. Maybe I read something differently, or saw a different version of the document or something. *shrugs*

I'm also going to sleep very well tonight - maybe because it's 0700 by my body clock for the second time in a week ;)

From my point of view, I've got the most new, decent, solid stuff for the least money than I've ever gotten from NewTek before. I'm sorry if other folk don't see it that way, but I guess the difference is I feel like I'm part of a process - my upgrade money wasn't for just 9.0. but for being part of the 9.x development process. That included the Open Beta (which proved invaluable, to have APS available for certain projects before the inital release), and the ongoing tool develoment which we all continue to have a say in.

Like I say, I didn't see the whatever-document you're talking about which said "All modelling tools will be available in layout" and "all tools will be consolidated" and "All OpenGL will be level-platformed". What I saw read along the lines of "Steps will be made in the direction, and that direction will be persued during the 9.x cycle", as well as statements about re-coring the whole geometry system so many legacy issues (such as bump-map normalisation issues) would be brought up to code.

If you saw an early press release or something that subsequently got pulled, then fair enough - but I think you've got an awfully big bowl of sour grapes to be saying things like "You get what you pay for". But that's my personal opinion.

bryphi7
08-05-2006, 04:06 PM
Yes, maybe I should rephrase..."You don't get what you pay for" in this case...

You are definitely looking at the updated feature list. The original list said that there was going to be modeling tools in layout in 9.0. It wasn't till later that they announced that it was more work then they originally thought, and that it would be done in the 9.X cycle.

So yes you are mistaken.

Celshader
08-05-2006, 04:17 PM
I predict that by the end of the 9.x cycle, bryphi7 will be first in line to preorder LW10.0.

:D

Bog
08-05-2006, 04:21 PM
Yes, maybe I should rephrase..."You don't get what you pay for" in this case...

You are definitely looking at the updated feature list. The original list said that there was going to be modeling tools in layout in 9.0. It wasn't till later that they announced that it was more work then they originally thought, and that it would be done in the 9.X cycle.

So yes you are mistaken.

*cough* There are modelling tools in layout. Perhaps the original post wasn't explicit enough to say "Just not all of them". Maybe they thought that most people would think "Hey, cool! Some modelling tools in Layout!" not "Ah, right, all of Modeler's functionality. After all these years, and with all the extra other stuff, they're going to totally integrate the two applications in one."

Still, it's always fun to have a thread to reply to.

bryphi7
08-05-2006, 04:25 PM
I predict that by the end of the 9.x cycle, bryphi7 will be first in line to preorder LW10.0.

:D

I hope you are right:D
Only time will tell... If they can pull it together in the 9.X cycle, and show me something that I can be proud of using... I will buy me, yours, and bogs upgrade.

SCS5
08-05-2006, 04:35 PM
I hope you are right:D
Only time will tell... If they can pull it together in the 9.X cycle, and show me something that I can be proud of using... I will buy me, yours, and bogs upgrade.

How about mine too:D

Bog
08-05-2006, 04:36 PM
I will buy me, yours, and bogs upgrade.

No way I'm holding you to that. All that matters to me is that *I'm* proud of the work I do. But I appreciate the sentiment. Tell you what - if you are happy come Ten Point Oh, let's spend the money on beer instead and laugh ourselves silly.

bryphi7
08-05-2006, 04:42 PM
ya...
You can all start holding your breath...NOW!

It sounds like Celshader might have some inside information that the rest of us wavers don't know about...Come on Celshader share the knowledge.:D

Bog
08-05-2006, 04:48 PM
Oh the secrets we know. Secret secrets. Made out of secret...

*plays with his LW9.3 mind-reading hat*

*makes a hole in a surface with MIND BULLETS

archiea
08-05-2006, 05:55 PM
Yes, that is also why I prepaid, and like you, it wasn't till after I paid that the list was changed.


Add to that Fprime support for nodal shading....

Dave Jerrard
08-05-2006, 05:58 PM
Well, from what I read the new AA and blur aren't going to be fully implementedWHAT?!?!?! Core changes to add these features are NOT fully imlementing them? How much more implemented can you get?



so we are still going to gave the old versions as well. Whats that make 3 different motion blurs that we have now.So now choices are bad?



You know what I mean, All the stuff we already paid for. Not more new tools thrown in that aren't going to be fully functional..Well, you can always wait until the software is at a point that will make you happy and buy it again. But I think everyone knows when that will be.


He Who Is Reminded Of An Old Saying....

KillMe
08-05-2006, 06:00 PM
i thought the new blur was suppost to work with everything with the exception of some legacy plugins and techniques etc that that was the only reason it was beign left in- then again i'm renouned for catching the wrong end of the stick

Bog
08-05-2006, 06:01 PM
He Who Is Reminded Of An Old Saying....

"No, really. They'll never find the body."

Dave Jerrard
08-05-2006, 06:04 PM
*makes a hole in a surface with MIND BULLETS
You are not to talk of mind bullets ever again. Shush!!


He Who Knows Nothing About Any Of Those Mind... Things... That He's Not Talking About.

bryphi7
08-05-2006, 06:04 PM
I am leaving the option to render multiple passes in because there will be some things that will not work with the new motion blur. We will be implementing more of these over time but there will always be some feature, such as a legacy plug-in, that will not be able to fully support the new motion blur. In these cases, the multi-pass method is best especially when combined with the new blur for all the other features in the scene.

-Mark Granger

When ever I hear "over time" I consider that to be three upgrades away.

Bog
08-05-2006, 06:08 PM
Sorry, Dave. I forgot that we don't discuss our powers in public.

KillMe
08-05-2006, 07:09 PM
Sorry, Dave. I forgot that we don't discuss our powers in public.

you just did it again though

SCS5
08-05-2006, 07:14 PM
You are not to talk of mind bullets ever again. Shush!!


He Who Knows Nothing About Any Of Those Mind... Things... That He's Not Talking About.

Are these "Mind Bullet Things" going to be a feature in the 9X cycle?:question: Is it some sort of mental boolean thing? :screwy: Will it require a special helmet?:p

Dave Jerrard
08-05-2006, 07:20 PM
Are these "Mind Bullet Things" going to be a feature in the 9X cycle? Is it some sort of mental boolean thing? Will it require a special helmet?A helmet would be preferred, but is optional, assuming Mind Bullets were real, but they're not, so I wouldn't worry about those little guys. Just keep your head low. :hey:


He Who Is Glad To Be On A More Cheerful Thread Again.

Cageman
08-06-2006, 04:57 AM
Hmm..reading through this thread has rised a couple of interesting points, however, buying a softwarepackage based on a couple of promised features is something I have trouble understanding.

When it comes to modelling in Layout, yes... it was promised in 9.0, but pretty early during the beta-cycle, Jay made a statement that they weren't able to migrate all the tools into Layout in time. It was a much bigger job to do than what they initialy thought. Also, bare in mind that Layout needs a complete restructure of the whole selection-system, which I think may take alot of time, depending on how far they've gone with the core-rewrite (yes, as I understand it, the core-rewrite will go on during the whole 9.x cycle).

LW9.0, as we know, had alot of focus on rendering, right? So, in my opinion, it is **** straight to adress one of the weakest points of LW:s renderer... its motionblur and dof (this is what I call focusing on one thing at a time). If I'm not mistaken, but I recall that Nick Boughen said that the supervisor for Da Vinchi Code didn't like LW:s motionblur at all. And some other people have said that it is one of the reasons why LW:s renderer isn't used that much in film. Even though I'm a big fan of compositing, there are situations when compositing will give you much more headache and overhead in workflow, that by simply render the stuff is the only way to solve it in time. With the current mblur, well... PAL/NTSC and maybe HD, but no way 4k res (depending on the shot, of course).

I hope that the next step, with FOCUS on RENDERING, will be to adress GI, because it is dead slow.

And, as Jay said, the core-rewrite continues so I will wait and see what the whole LW9.x cycle will offer before I sit down and decide if I will continue to support NT or if I will go another route.

Bog
08-06-2006, 05:11 AM
Cageman,

The new DoF and blur systems in LW get rid of the need for all that texture layer deconstruction and replacement malarky that haunted a lot of movie comp-shots. That's coming Real Soon Now(tm) from what we were shown at SIGGRAPH - it already works, I guess they just want to beat on it some more to see if it's stable.

The level of modelling available in layout is boodles for nailing up quick front-projection maps, f'rexample, which is where modelling tools are an obvious, immediate boon. TBH, I'm really eager to have direct morph-map editing in Layout, and things like a falloff-enable Twist or Bend tool there too. 'Til then, I've gotten used to running Modeler on one screen and Layout on another.

Emmanuel
08-06-2006, 05:33 AM
Hmm..reading through this thread has rised a couple of interesting points, however, buying a softwarepackage based on a couple of promised features is something I have trouble understanding.

When it comes to modelling in Layout, yes... it was promised in 9.0, but pretty early during the beta-cycle, Jay made a statement that they weren't able to migrate all the tools into Layout in time. It was a much bigger job to do than what they initialy thought. Also, bare in mind that Layout needs a complete restructure of the whole selection-system, which I think may take alot of time, depending on how far they've gone with the core-rewrite (yes, as I understand it, the core-rewrite will go on during the whole 9.x cycle).


I am not trying to be mean here, but blue eyed guys like me could think that someone with Jays reputation and experience could have know this fact before announcing that feature to "catch" those pre-order customers, right ?
I mean, its not like the devteam was brandnew then (they made the whole 8 cycle) and did not no nothing about LW's code internals.
Not like people arenÄt supposed to deal with those marketing tricks, its just sad that NT had to rely on this.
As well as the fact that they delayed LW 9 *7 months* from the original date of release.I wonder why it was announced with all these features for 4Q/05 (or shortly after siggraph or whatever) and everybody must have known they would never make it, and then they released it 7 months later with even less features than announced.Way to go, I say.It tought me a lesson about NT.
And then stating things like "documentation is one of our main efforts" and then releasing a docu like the one we got.
NT isn't a new kid on the block anymore, so I can not "forgive" such things.
There are people who actually laughed at me for preordering, but I was confident that NT would manage everything from the original feature list in time.

SCS5
08-06-2006, 06:38 AM
I am not trying to be mean here, but blue eyed guys like me could think that someone with Jays reputation and experience could have know this fact before announcing that feature to "catch" those pre-order customers, right ?
I mean, its not like the devteam was brandnew then (they made the whole 8 cycle) and did not no nothing about LW's code internals.
Not like people arenÄt supposed to deal with those marketing tricks, its just sad that NT had to rely on this.
As well as the fact that they delayed LW 9 *7 months* from the original date of release.I wonder why it was announced with all these features for 4Q/05 (or shortly after siggraph or whatever) and everybody must have known they would never make it, and then they released it 7 months later with even less features than announced.Way to go, I say.It tought me a lesson about NT.
And then stating things like "documentation is one of our main efforts" and then releasing a docu like the one we got.NT isn't a new kid on the block anymore, so I can not "forgive" such things.
There are people who actually laughed at me for preordering, but I was confident that NT would manage everything from the original feature list in time.




dear Emmy

Yes some tools needs more functionality but it will be achieved in time..Why? you know it, i know it, they know it.

And i love inside Lightwave Books. But it will be still OK if Dan leaves the scene. There are so informative writers in our community (and their books also my primary sources (warner, albee, jerrard, boughen, wood, hennigan and many others)). They will fill Dan's absence(if there is such a thing). Kurv should be busy by now




As far as the Lightwave book situation goes. Why can't Newtek write a decent manual? I don't want to have to buy additional books to learn a new version! Dan's books are AWESOME!! But buying all the additional books, Textures, Lighting, Rigging, Etc. adds hundreds of dollars to the price of every upgrade. The manuals for Max, Maya, & XSI are virtual encyclopedia's of knowledge. Why can't Newtek properly document it's own software?...


Choosing the 'Y' axis in the numeric box seems to have no effect on this, and trying to perform a bend without dragging with the mouse (choosing'apply', and setting my 360 deg) yields bizarre and unexplainable results. I've tried everything i can think of.
Can anyone clue me in about this tool, and/or how to get the spline tool to work?? Yes, I have read the manual. It is zero help.
thanks for any clues,
NJ


Newtek, How-about a REAL MANUAL!!! Let's see It's only taken from version 4 to, where are we now? Oh yea..9 and the manual still sucks! We have to buy books from other people who've taken the time to really explain how each version of Lightwave works! Come on Newtek..10 years and you still can't figure out how to write a manual?? Time is running out!

JBT27
08-06-2006, 06:50 AM
I really like the video tutorial approach to learning any software - I like stuff to read as well - but I wonder if they shouldn't just have a very concerted effort to get the core learning out via video tutorials, done by people who really know LW. I'll admit, we have spent alot of money on training from Dan Ablan, Larry Schultz, and other 'one-offs' from Kurv Studios, and they are all really good. But all those and books is a commitment of several hundreds of dollars. Once again, perhaps NT should look to third-parties, ie. professional LW artists, to provide training materials as part of the package.

I wouldn't say that the current manual is really bad, it's just like so many it lacks imagination.....which I guess brings us back to paying for teaching from people who do have it and the ability to get ideas across.

Julian.

Cageman
08-06-2006, 07:29 AM
There are people who actually laughed at me for preordering, but I was confident that NT would manage everything from the original feature list in time.

Well, I've had to take some punches just because I like LightWave, regardless of version. But that tells alot more about them than yourself, imo. If NT hadn't focused on having a more open communication with the users, I would have been pissed off, but that is not the case. I'm swedish, and one of the particular fundamentals of swedes in general is that as long there is an explanation, patience can be restored... :)

tyrot
08-06-2006, 08:23 AM
Newtek, How-about a REAL MANUALCome on Newtek..10 years and you still can't figure out how to write a manual?? Time is running out!

dear SCS5

i think this team cant be responsible because of 10 years of written texts about LW can they? (i wonder how s Modo's documents btw)

Be positive....We are not living in Pre-Net ages. Forums are great libraries. There are fantastic users willing to help. We have many realtime-manual writers here. And an ordinary LWer is naturally a self learner. We like to learn as our own ways:) So exploring and discovering our natural virtues:) plus i expect crazy amount of video tutorials (which imo coolest way of learning) from Kurv,Shultz and others.

Of course this doesnt replace a good manual but hey, They are UPDATING LW. I wouldnt even print a Manual in this stage :) really i would save some trees out there for LW 10. No matter what everything is changing almost weekly based. So many additions will be included who knows many parts will be re-written may be in a month. So i wouldnt expect a rocksolid-informative manual at this point.


Best

esper8
08-06-2006, 08:45 AM
The manual is a reference guide and does exactly what it says on the tin

SCS5
08-06-2006, 08:47 AM
I'm not the only one here who think Newtek should do a better job with their manuals. I just don't sugar coat my feelings...Sorry. I'm just tired of getting manuals that don't document the software I've paid for!.. If other companies can do it, Max, XSI, Etc. why shouldn't I expect the same from Newtek? The manuals they (XSI,Etc.) provide are virtual encyclopedias! I just get tired of people standing up and justifying mediocrity. In case anyone has forgotten, we're paying a significant amount of money for this stuff. In my case, several thousand dollars to Newtek over the years. Like I said, if other companies can do it, why can't Newtek? I don't think that's asking too much??

SCS5
08-06-2006, 08:50 AM
The manual is a reference guide and does exactly what it says on the tin
Well apparently it doesn't do that very well since most LW users go out and buy books from other sources to learn the new tools.

tyrot
08-06-2006, 10:10 AM
I just get tired of people standing up and justifying mediocrity. Like I said, if other companies can do it, why can't Newtek? I don't think that's asking too much??

dear SCS5

literally i never stand up:) so dont blame me:) I love to read manuals. (Probably it is my own educational habit, after reading and memorizing thousands pages of law code reading a software manual is reading a comic trust me) But reading manuals didnt directly satisfied my any needs. Not just in 3d. I have many after effects + photoshop books + videos.

You can USE software with manual but making money, getting under the hood or creating something distinctive ...you gotta eventually go to other sources. You have no other choice. Software companies are not full of artists. I dont think even newtek was thinking Proton's fur making from displacements. THat s why you NEED other sources.

And please think about How many LWers around the globe running to the bookstores, ordering LW books from Amazon.

Why not bring the fact that, the BEST SELLING 3d Books are usually Lightwave Related...

I dont know why... May be because Lack of Manual??? Come on.

( probably Dan,Leigh,Johnny Gorden, Jerrard, warner, Kurv should be threating the JAY at the moment..."DONT WRITE THE MANUAL or We will kill ya!")

Newtek loves its users and its authors.

ANd for me most lovely thing (except Lightwaving) is to purchase a Lightwave Book and keep reading it.

There is something about Lightwave. You know it, i know it, They know it (but some keeps ignoring it).

BEST
(this message has been written buttsnapped to a chair which snapped to the ceiling with using Pictrix's SP plugins in real life.)

Imatk
08-06-2006, 10:52 AM
www.thegnomonworkshop.com

Honestly, the manuals for Maya are nothing to be particularly proud of, they might be huge, but like the ones for LightWave, they are reference material at best. Sure there's the small tutorials to get you going, but they aren't all that great and certainky not very creative or eye opening.

I'm tired of people thinking that Maya and XSI are always the perfect golden grail, they're NOT. If those programs are so much better, use them instead and stop the eternal whining about how crappy everything about LightWave is. There's always room for improvement but for some people, no matter what you give them, they will never be satisfied.


I totally agree about the manual for Maya I'm suffering that right now :)

I too am VERY tired of people thinking that Maya is the end-all and be-all of 3d.

I think LW9 is a huge step. I really love it. I know there are things that haven't come to fruition that maybe were promised. But I believe they are really cooking and on the right track. I DO believe they will still need to step it up a notch even further to have the tools available to a Maya Unlimited, but they're on the way I believe.

It's amazing to me how many times people have asked, "What did you do that in?" and I say, "Lightwave." and they say, "What? What's that? Is that like Maya?"

It truly is infuriating to me. I really wish Newtek would grab the market back with a vengance. I don't know how they can do that.

I try to do my part by telling everyone I know about it :)

I read earlier in this thread about Alias making deals with studios to keep quiet about other apps. Sounds very interesting, and a bit dirty, but if that's what needs to be done on Newtek's part to take back the market share and change people's minds then they should do it.

And I'm sure if they asked us to do anything in that area all of us would be behind it.

Phil
08-06-2006, 11:27 AM
Sorry, Dave. I forgot that we don't discuss our powers in public.

Dave's power seems to be coming up with, or otherwise finding, fantastic 'reasons for editing'. Witness :

I'm just glad we got to you before anything really bad happened. Well, I mean, besides the slavery and the super horrible beatings.

I'm in awe.

Dave Jerrard
08-06-2006, 12:19 PM
Well apparently it doesn't do that very well since most LW users go out and buy books from other sources to learn the new tools.Not to single anyone out here, but, there's a big difference here that many people are missing, between reference manuals and training material. A reference manual tells you what the software does. What all those little buttons & panels & other doodads do. It's not designed to train you on how to use the software anymore than an owner's manual for a car teaches your how to drive. The manuals for word processors, email programs and other text editors don't teach you how to write, paint programs don't teach you how to paint, etc.. My camera's manual didn't each me anything about how to take good pictures. Audio-Video equipment, well, you're lucky if you have an half decent translation, but they rarely teach you how to get the most out of it, as evidenced by the profusion of VCRs that flash 12:00 even years after being hooked up.

It's generally assumed that the user has these skills already, or is going to pick them up on his own. It's not in the scope of a reference guide to provide this training. It's there to tell you what the features are and what they do. It's there so you can find them. Hence the term, reference.

Now there are some guides that are better than others. I can think of a pretty wretched reference guide for Imagine 3D several years ago which was little more than a self referencing list of features that said little about what any features actually did, much like this: 'Polymuffin Lock': Toggles Polymuffin Lock between auto, on or off. What's a polymuffin lock, why would I want it, what does it do? Never explained. That 'manual' was virtually nothing but entries like that.

Now, books that people buy to learn the software are designed to teach techniques and train the reader in how to get results out of their software. By taking someone through a project, step by step, showing them how to use the tools, frequently in not-so-obvious ways the tools can be used. There's a lot of ground to cover and no training book I know of even bothers to try to cover every button in the software. There's just not enough time or space to even attempt that in any training manual, without turning the book into another reference guide. The second LightWave Applied book had to be shortened by over 400 pages, just to fit the binding. The rest ended up on the CD. And there was still tons of stuff that we wanted to cover.

No single book can teach you everything there is to know about the software. That's why there's so many books out there. Look at the vast selection of books just for Photoshop alone. Amazon comes up with over 1600 results when you search its book section for that, 172 results for Phtoshop CS2 alone. A search for Maya Unlimited returns 31 for that specific package. Amazon has 54 entries for LightWave 3D. The more popular the software, the more books there will be for it. But none of these books covers, or even mentions, every feature (except in the case of a list of features).

People buy these books because they want to learn how to better use the software. They want to learn what others have done before them. They usually tend to be fairly new users, who are trying to get a head start with the app. People that have been with an app for a long time usually tend to pass on the books since they already know most of the techniques covered in them. But there's also a fair amount of overlap between the groups. Even a training book can be useful as a reference guide, but instead of a reference for what each button does, it's a reference guide for techniques that suddenly have some relevance to what the owner's doing, or as some people have mentioned, just for fun reading.

Personally, I don't mind if NewTek crams as many tutorials and other bomus stuff into their manuals as they can get. There will always be stuff to cover. people will always have questions about better ways of doing things. Different people have different methods as well. Dan does stuff his way, I do stuff my way, Larry does things his way, etc. Is one better than the other? That depends on what works for you. I'm not going to threaten Jay, or anyone else (well, unless they blatantly rip me off. :hey: ), for writing a really huge in-depth reference guide. More knowledge means more possibilities open up to the user. With that, more questions. And right now, the big question on my mind is...

Where the **** did I come up with Polymuffin Lock? :stumped:

He Who Really Wonders What His Mind Is Up To At Times.

SCS5
08-06-2006, 01:02 PM
White Flag!...I think I just got up on the wrong side of the bed this morning:bangwall: Peace!

Imagine....Ahhhhhhhhh Yesssssssss...The good old days:p ...................Remember the CUP?

Cageman
08-06-2006, 02:05 PM
And I also suspect that most people who put Maya above all else, have never actually worked with it themselves, they've just eaten up all the marketing hype surrounding it.

That may be true in some cases, but at the studio where I've been freelancing many of them have never used anything other than Maya, and those were the guys punching me a little because I told them I like LightWave. Some of the other guys that have used sevaral apps, though never used LightWave, could see my point and understand it.

Bog
08-06-2006, 02:55 PM
That may be true in some cases, but at the studio where I've been freelancing many of them have never used anything other than Maya, and those were the guys punching me a little because I told them I like LightWave. Some of the other guys that have used sevaral apps, though never used LightWave, could see my point and understand it.

Amazing, isn't it? Maya users and XSI folk take pokes at us, and while that's happenning... our forum members are taking a big crap over things as well!

Cripes.

*edit*

Gratuitous Photo Link Time!

http://static.flickr.com/78/207927164_792a2866a1.jpg

Now I know I didn't program that vest.

stevecullum
08-06-2006, 03:28 PM
The 'gold pen' syndrome is alive and well in London at least. I was doing some work for a studio there and they had seats of Lightwave, Maya, XSI etc.. I asked why they mainly promoted the fact they were using Autodesk products over anything else and the guy told me it was because the agencies and marketing big wigs had heard of it. Maya is like a 'buzz' word, so by name dropping like that its good for the studios image.

Lightwave has been used in many high profile movies and projects over the years, but very little IMO has been done to exploit this as a marketing tool.

Imatk
08-06-2006, 03:52 PM
The 'gold pen' syndrome is alive and well in London at least. I was doing some work for a studio there and they had seats of Lightwave, Maya, XSI etc.. I asked why they mainly promoted the fact they were using Autodesk products over anything else and the guy told me it was because the agencies and marketing big wigs had heard of it. Maya is like a 'buzz' word, so by name dropping like that its good for the studios image.

Lightwave has been used in many high profile movies and projects over the years, but very little IMO has been done to exploit this as a marketing tool.

Agreed.... and agreed.... and agreed :)

SP00
08-06-2006, 04:22 PM
All I want right now it better Character Animation tools.

Also, I think Newtek should think about tackling schools and sticking "Made by Lightwave" at the end of movie credits. I know that I learn about Maya due to what Alias stuck at the end of movie credits. Then i was like "yes, i must learn that" until i found out about LW.

Also, this community should enter more competition using LW. Everytime, I open 3D World Magazine, their portfolio section is filled with Maya and Max entries. The gallery on NT website has much better entries. So please send in your work to these magazines and enter compeition that will give you and LW recognition. If you don't do it, nobody else will.

richcz3
08-06-2006, 04:46 PM
- 3D Grass greener on the other side -

See the Maya 8 loving going on HERE (http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?t=387929)


Hmmm yeah I also hate to sound whiney but this isn't the most mind-blowing feature list, considering it's a new iteration of the software.
Yeah, no kidding. Overall, I'm just not as impressed with this release as I was with Maya 7. :(
3 whole poly tool additions..... great so now they are only about 100 tools shy of most normal modeling packages.
Very disappointing. I don´t think there will be a new detailed feature list.
It's fairly obvious Autodesk's marketing department has screwed the pooch, the only question is to what degree (accidentally half-updated site, terrible marketing work, or an actual anemic feature list).


Please jump ship - Join the throngs of happy Maya users. :hey:

Hey I almost did - Glad I didn't

Dave Jerrard
08-06-2006, 08:13 PM
White Flag!...I think I just got up on the wrong side of the bed this morning:bangwall: Peace!Been there. Well, on my bed... :)


Imagine....Ahhhhhhhhh Yesssssssss...The good old days:p ...................Remember the CUP?Actually, I hated imagine from the first time I tried it. I was a Sculpt guy until LW came along. Ah, the good old days, when texturing mean picking a color, and rendering only took 20 minutes, unless you added shadows, and then it was done in a matter of a mere 8 hours or so. :thumbsup:


He Who Still Has Some Of His Early Renders Kicking Around Somewhere.

Dave Jerrard
08-06-2006, 08:25 PM
All I want right now it better Character Animation tools. I think that's their main goal now, judging from their announcements. It's another long overdue feature set.


Also, I think Newtek should think about tackling schools and sticking "Made by Lightwave" at the end of movie credits. I know that I learn about Maya due to what Alias stuck at the end of movie credits. Then i was like "yes, i must learn that" until i found out about LW. Schools they might have some influence with. As for credits, that's really screwy. I think those come down to how much clout the FX houses have with the studios. The more clout, the more credits you can get. There's been a lot of movies where the majority of effects are done by a few smaller studios, and then one big studio comes in and does a couple shots, and they get the most credits, listing the names of everyone that even walks by the building while they were working on it, while the smaller guys are lucky to get a company name and a supervisor listed. But when it is allowed, the software does get listed. When it's allowed... Grrr...



He Who Wonders If He Should Be Awake Yet Or Not.

Ivan D. Young
08-06-2006, 09:42 PM
I know at some studios the problem for lightwave is that, Studios employ many costly programmers to fix things in their pipleine, and it is really hard to justify all those salaries, and then you have lightwave can just do it.(for what Lightwave is good at obviously) Lightwave would also be be more accpeted when the new scripting engine gets put in. Why if Maya and XSi are so great that the Digital Domain and Rhythm and Hues commercial divisions use Lightwave for almost all of their work? As to why you don't hear about this much is because those guys are working their Butts off.

Sensei
08-07-2006, 02:29 AM
Imagine....Ahhhhhhhhh Yesssssssss...The good old days:p ...................Remember the CUP?

Imagine.. My beloved.. :)
I loved it so much that my the first LightWave commercial plug-in was ImageForm (anyone remember it? Released in December 2002), month later ImageSeqForm and later the better than original FormEditor.. They were all Imagine's Form Editor ports in the LightWave's Modeler..

Bog
08-07-2006, 03:00 AM
Imagine.. My beloved..

At the time, I insisted most vehemently that Imagine was great, was absolutely loads of 3D Package and I didn't really care about not running LightWave.

Right up until the time I could afford some more RAM and a floating-point unit. Then I switched apps and never mentioned Imagine again... shame on me. I was young! I needed the money! I had severe gastric pain!

toby
08-07-2006, 04:00 AM
I know at some studios the problem for lightwave is that, Studios employ many costly programmers to fix things in their pipleine, and it is really hard to justify all those salaries, and then you have lightwave can just do it.(for what Lightwave is good at obviously) Lightwave would also be be more accpeted when the new scripting engine gets put in. Why if Maya and XSi are so great that the Digital Domain and Rhythm and Hues commercial divisions use Lightwave for almost all of their work?
The three biggest objections I hear about LW at work (Digital Domain commercials) are motion blur/AA, lack of programmability, and slow radiosity. Pretty much in that order. (I know they've just about licked at least one of these. But their priorities are not just for big studios - otherwise character animation would be really low on their list.) Lightwave won't be dethroned as King of the commercial industry imho, because of the advancements they've made recently, and it's production speed. I struggled to get 2 shots done in VRay/Max, working until 2am for one of those weeks, in LW I've done 8 or 9 shots, never working past 11pm. Maya is a different animal, if you have a full team and months to produce something, it can produce things LW can't - but if you don't have the team, you may as well use LW. You need at least one guy just to write shaders, at least one guy to do nothing but rig characters, at least one TD to do nothing but write scripts...

As to why you don't hear about this much is because those guys are working their Butts off.
Ah, I wouldn't call 80hrs a week 'working hard'... 8/

Phil
08-07-2006, 04:52 AM
At the time, I insisted most vehemently that Imagine was great, was absolutely loads of 3D Package and I didn't really care about not running LightWave.

Right up until the time I could afford some more RAM and a floating-point unit. Then I switched apps and never mentioned Imagine again... shame on me. I was young! I needed the money! I had severe gastric pain!

Imagine dropped the ball by refusing to run on Windows in any way. When they got to Windows, it seems that they decided a standard UI was still not needed. It seems that the market decided this was a bad idea because their web site no longer exists (www.coolfun.com).

Anyway, I used Imagine from when it appeared on the coloured, transparent Amiga Format coverdisk, upgrading all the way through to 4.0 on PC and then fled for LW 4 on PC :) It wasn't a bad app, though, for the time. I still remember waiting an age for the A500 to render a single cow grazing in a field. Imagine had endomorph-type support long before LW! :D Reviews often contrasted LW and Imagine, with Imagine tending to lose out to LW's featureset and LW losing out to Imagine on price.

I can still fire up Amiga Imagine under WinUAE. I've not tried PC Imagine, but wonder if DOSBox might be pressed into service :D

Emmanuel
08-07-2006, 07:30 AM
To get back on topic with LIGHTWAVE and the docu:
if the manual is a reference manual, then where does it explain modeling tools in Layout, for example ?

I mean come on , its not like NT could rest on some laurels, they should try to become more appealing by offering tons of stuff in the learning department.
IK_Booster anyone ? Dynamics anyone ? Heck, last time I checked, the explanation of Multishift was even SHORTER in 9 than in 8 :)

SCS5
08-07-2006, 07:47 AM
:agree: Bitting my tongue:devil: