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jcool
06-04-2003, 01:11 PM
Attention Newtek Marketing Team (i.e. Chuck):

With the long gap between the start of the free LW8 upgrade and the "preview" at Siggraph, I'm wondering if plans have changed and Newtek expects to be close to a release by Siggraph. Usually there is only a small time frame, perhaps a month or two, between the beginning of a free upgrade period and the final release, because it can adversely affect upgrade sales. This makes the gap between April 1 and the "fourth quarter" seem overly long. Hopefully this wasn't caused by desperation from the sales dept.

That said, how about a feature list and some details? It wouldn't hurt sales, because we are in a free upgrade period anyway.

Yes. I'm impatient.
;)

Beamtracer
06-04-2003, 03:38 PM
Newtek already said that LW8 will be released in Q4. What software release ever ran early? I don't think it'll be released before that time.

For major Lightwave updates, it's been a long time between drinks. I think this is why Newtek is teasing everyone with a sneak preview of LW8 at the Siggraph expo later this month. It's just to prove that development is happening.

Also interesting is the deals on offer to encourage people to put their money down before Siggraph. Upgrade to LW7.5 and you'll get LW8 for free. Pay for LW8 now and get a version of Digital Fusion for free (this deal ends after Siggraph).

In case you're unfamiliar with Digital Fusion, it is compositing software that is Windows-only. It is not in the same league as higher-end packages like Shake or Commotion.

jcool
06-04-2003, 03:54 PM
I posed the first question mainly because the long free upgrade period sounds like an attempt to prop up sales numbers, even at the cost of upgrade revenue down the road. Usually this is not a good thing. I'm hoping this just means they are very confident about an early release date.

I've never used DF, but I've heard good things about it. The guy at Flay.com seems to like it quite a bit. I'm more of an AE guy myself.

Beamtracer
06-04-2003, 04:09 PM
Q4 is a long way off. By that time Mac users will be running the 64-bit Panther OS (10.3) which should be released in September.

The long free upgrade period is a little bit unusual. I can only speculate about their strategy. Maybe it gets the cash flowing.

Then there's the mysterious Luxology group, being run by some ex-Newtekers. Everyone wonders what they are working on. A competing product? I'm not sure.

As for Digital Fusion, I can't get very excited about it (apart from the fact that the offer locks out Mac people). If you take advantage of the LW8 upgrade offer, you'll get an 8-bit Digital Fusion which in my opinion makes it unsuitable for professional use.

Now if Newtek bundled a free copy of Shake with Lightwave 8, I'd put my money down today!!!

turbo
06-04-2003, 07:26 PM
Sounds like putting money down on an upgrade to 8 when it comes out is not that unreasonable. :p

Chuck
06-05-2003, 09:05 AM
We have no plans to announce further details of LightWave 3D [8] until we preview it at SIGGRAPH. Our release estimate for fourth quarter is unchanged. Our offer of an advance upgrade has to do with the fact that we wanted a way to bring the eyeon DFX+ offer to registered LightWave [7.5] owners. We were offering it to new purchasers of LightWave, and to users of [6.x] and earlier purchasing an upgrade to [7.5]. What to offer those who already have [7.5]? Hmmm. Well, we have to bundle it with something of ours in some way, so how about the DFX+ bundle at one heck of a price plus the [8] upgrade when it is released? Seemed reasonable to us.

But then again, we're kinda strange folks. ;)

turbo
06-05-2003, 09:17 AM
it would be nice if you offered something that we mac users who have 7.5 can use.

Azod
06-05-2003, 09:19 AM
I thought I would claify what DFX+ is for those who are unclear. DFX+ is an 8 bit compositing application which, with full modules offers all the functionality of our Film Compositor, Digital Fusion except it works in 8 bit color space, which is still the standard for Television Broadcast.

It is a node based compositor, yet offers both timeline and spline workflow paradigms as well.

The modules that are included are Mods 1 and 4.

Module 1 Visual Effects

Tracker
Stabilize and Camera Perspective
Expressions
Letterbox and Camera Shake

Module 4 3D Tools

3D Z-depth blur
Grid Warping
Shader
For 3D and Texture 3D

For those who dispute it cabilities as a professional application, the bulk of the compositing for Steven Spielberg's Taken was done in DFX+ by DreamWorks

If you need any more information about DFX+ please visit our website.

www.eyeonline.com

Cheers,

Adam Zolis
eyeon Software

turbo
06-05-2003, 09:25 AM
I copied this from your site.

Minimum System Requirements

Windows NT4 / 2000 / XP
Intel Pentium II Processor or greater
Graphics card capable of displaying 1280x1024 in True Color
256 MB of RAM
80 MB Hard Drive space


Recommended System Requirements

Windows NT4 / 2000 / XP
Dual Processor AMD or Intel
Graphics card capable of displaying 1600x1200 or higher
512 MB RAM, 1 GB RAM for Film Work

Unfortunately, no matter how useful it is to windows people, it is of no use to me.

Chuck
06-05-2003, 09:55 AM
NewTek is thrilled that we've found an ally like eyeon Software, who are willing to work with us to provide truly incredible special value offers. It is true that eyeon doesn't offer a Mac version of their incredible compositing, visual effects and image processing software. It is also worth noting, however, that those Mac users who do not also have a PC or do not wish to acquire one to use DFX+ will no doubt be able to recoup a significant part of a LightWave full seat purchase by reselling the DFX+ seat; upgraders can probably recoup the price of this upgrade a couple of times over by that route.

The case may end up being that most LightWave Mac users choose to apply the value differently than most PC users, but they still get great extra value in this deal. $1785US in essentially free software to use or resell as you choose certainly does not seem to us to be "useless" to Mac users, and I would hope that on reflection you might agree with that assessment.

turbo
06-05-2003, 10:05 AM
Nope.. sorry.. I can't be bothered to sell something... I give away my second hand stuff to charity, my older computers to friends and family. I'd just give this away too. So what would be my extra value here? Love, maybe.. hmmmm... what PC owner can I get some love from? Oh.. I know.. I can send it overseas to one of my little buddies.. :D :cool: ;)

I will upgrade to LW 8 tho. Lightwave kicks ***!

theosmekhanes
06-05-2003, 10:48 AM
If it's only an 8bit app. It's a toy. Software junkfood. Filling but not satisfying.

As a Shake and AE user I would have no need for a sub par app, free or not.

Just give me a competent Mac version that is Panther savvy and you will get my upgrade money.

Oh, and support for Q-master, Screw screemernet.

Chuck
06-05-2003, 11:12 AM
As an 8-bit application DFX+ is a capable television and broadcast production tool, already in use by high-end professionals in major network productions, for example Taken, produced by Stephen Spielberg's DreamWorks, for the Sci-Fi Channel. Those who have need for greater bit-depth can upgrade to Digital Fusion for a very reasonable price.

After Effects also comes in both 8-bit and 16-bit versions. Shake is $4950 ( or $9900 for Irix or Linux) with annual maintenance of $1485. At that price 16-bit would certainly be expected.

Chuck
06-05-2003, 11:15 AM
Last time I checked, Q-master and all other render controllers all used ScreamerNet. The reason for that is that you really can't network render without the rendering software itself.

mbaldwin
06-05-2003, 11:31 AM
hey chuck,

I think what you're hearing is a desire for Newtek to offer similar solution incentives for the Mac users that you are agressively persuing on the PC side. You've offered tasty PC hardware partnerships as well.

To be honest, I think I would of passed on both recent offers, but I know Mac users would love to have choices, and love to find ways to integrate LW into their flow with other software.

On that subject, take a look at Synthetik software's Studio Artist application(synthetik.com). It's a great 2d rotoscoping app--Mac only, so you might be unaware of what it can do. But it's an amazing widget to have around to give handdrawn and painted looks to 3d content. They might be open to some sort of partnership--I know they're trying to release a new version in the next couple quarters, so bundling their current version might make sense to them(more upgrader$ for the next release!)

I'd be curious to hear of other peoples suggestions on what other mac tie-ins could be. Just for laughs.

thanks!
-m.

turbo
06-05-2003, 11:44 AM
The only additional toys I am really interested in at the moment are character stuff, ie: rigging and animation, and the ability to paint directly in 3d.
It can't be that difficult to program the latter, being as I am currently doing it (painting in 3D) with the terrain in the very basic 'Torque Editor'.

ackees
06-05-2003, 02:55 PM
Complete parity between the Mac and PC LW is awesome, very few companies can achieve that. 7.5c seems a little quicker; if programmers would only make full use of the Mac ROMs their apps would blaze on the Mac, the trend of sitting the application above the Mac interface slows the Mac app by making it behave like its on the PC.

Beamtracer
06-05-2003, 03:46 PM
Originally posted by mbaldwin
take a look at Synthetik software's Studio Artist application(synthetik.com).


The suggestion to bundle an app like Synthetik Studio Artist is an interesting one. That would attract my interest.

I don't say that DF is any better or worse than After Effects. However, it's only natural that Mac users would not be showing much interest in Windows only apps, just as we haven't spent much time thinking about Newtek's Toaster and Aura for the same reason. The Windows users will probably be rushing to take advantage of the DF offer.

There have been other Windows-only Lightwave promotions in the past. I can't help thinking that Newtek promotions that are aimed solely at the Windows crowd will encourage more Windows people to Lightwave, but not Mac people. It might skew the Lightwave user base towards greater numbers of Windows users and less Mac users.

Chuck
06-05-2003, 04:51 PM
Originally posted by mbaldwin
hey chuck,

I think what you're hearing is a desire for Newtek to offer similar solution incentives for the Mac users that you are agressively persuing on the PC side. You've offered tasty PC hardware partnerships as well.


That's reasonable, and we are in fact searching for such opportunities...



I'd be curious to hear of other peoples suggestions on what other mac tie-ins could be. Just for laughs.

thanks!
-m.

We're interested to hear as well, and for perfectly serious! :)

quatermain
06-05-2003, 05:39 PM
how about a Vue D'Esprit, or a Realviz product tie-in? particle illusion, if it ever reaches osX, would be cool too.
haven't used any of them but the DF4+ deal sure looks super sweet.

Beamtracer
06-05-2003, 06:54 PM
Originally posted by quatermain
how about a Vue D'Esprit, or a Realviz product tie-in?

Hey, that's a great idea.

Realviz Stitcher would be a wonderful addition to have:
http://www.realviz.com/products/st/index.php
http://www.realviz.com/products/img/box/st.jpg
Stitcher allows you to use a whole bunch of small still photographs and stitch them into a 360 degree panorama. That would be of use to all Lightwave users.

Synthetik Studio Artist is also great!
http://www.synthetik.com/About%20Studio%20Artist%202.0/2Brochure.html
http://www.synthetik.com/Home/Boxps.gif
Studio Artist is one of the coolest programs around, but it's difficult to describe what it does. They call it a graphics synthesizer, and it does rotoscoping and all kinds of totally unique visual effects.

Even better would be a tie-in with Apple themselves.

How exciting would it be to have a deal involving Final Cut Pro
http://a772.g.akamai.net/7/772/51/dbf0b524898fad/www.apple.com/finalcutpro/images/indextop04072003.jpg


Or DVD Studio Pro
http://a772.g.akamai.net/7/772/51/04b16d41b9628e/www.apple.com/dvdstudiopro/newversion/images/indextop04072003.jpg


I guess Shake would be too expensive
http://a772.g.akamai.net/7/772/51/0ec93e41a14e03/www.apple.com/shake/images/indextop04072003.jpg

I remember some time ago Electric Image gave away a "free" Apple iBook with every Electric Image purchase. I'm not interested in Electric Image, but it was almost worth the purchase just to get the iBook!!!

Any deal with Apple is likely to get a lot of publicity.
http://a448.g.akamai.net/7/448/51/646d72d9ef2f7e/www.apple.com/powerbook/images/index17topopen01072003.jpg

eblu
06-05-2003, 07:03 PM
how about this...
re-do scremernet.
so that it plays nicely with shake's new rendevouz rendering system.

then offer bundles of:

LW and shake....
and
Screamernet and Maya.

you could also possibly sell screamernet as a standalone package (btw: this idea didnt begin with me, I believe I read a quote from Kenneth Woodruf, that suggested that to some guy from Alias Wavefront).

toby
06-05-2003, 08:24 PM
so Beam,

How do you apply Stitcher's ( or QT ) panorama to LW? They wrap differenetly than spherical map or light probe.

Beamtracer
06-05-2003, 10:13 PM
I believe that Stitcher can output in a number of formats, including a single 360 "fish eye" image, which you can wrap to the inside of a sphere, or use the Image World plugin.

Final Cut Pro would be a great add-on to Lightwave. Anyone who makes animations will want to edit them. FCP's 32bit renderer can deal with Lightwave's HDR images without crushing them... it's the only editing system I know of that can do this. It can also composit. It's something that all Mac Lightwavers would want to use.

I guess the only problem with a deal with FCP and Lightwave is that FCP may be regarded as a competitor to Newtek's Toaster. Then again, Toaster isn't available on Mac, and FCP isn't available on Windows, so I don't see them as competitors.

As mentioned above, 3D landscape software, Vue d'Espirit would also make a nice companion to Lightwave.
http://www.e-onsoftware.com/Products/vue4/index.php
http://www.e-onsoftware.com/Products/vue4/PackVue4.jpg

turbo
06-06-2003, 12:11 AM
You've done some good work here.
FCP and Vue would get my vote and mebbe DVD Studio Pro. :D

Darth Mole
06-06-2003, 02:01 AM
Sorry, but I think Vue d'Esprit sucks. I'd rather have some useful terrain-based modelling tools in LW.

And on that subject, surely a LW + Sasquatch + G2 + Hypersmooth + Impact3 (delete as applicable) bundle would appeal to Mac users more than some random, cheap 3D apps?

All this stuff genuinely adds value to LW and then you could simply tick three of five boxes (or whatever) for the functionality you want, like the modular retail approach of Cinema 4D R8.

You get some great tools to use in LW, and the plug-in guys have more LW users on the upgrade path.

Then there's always After Effects 6.0, the details of which will be announced in a week or two. (I've seen the early press relase and it's much faster, has more 16-bit functionality and some nice new toys, though I don't want to break any NDAs.)

I really hope LW8 can save to AE project files like Cinema does...

brownie
06-06-2003, 09:56 AM
I agree with you Darth Maul.
Having a 8 version with Sasquatch and G2 would be more than just a commercial offer, it would be the way for registered and new customers to prefer Lw rather than competitors for a very long time. Worley products are definitely too expensive, but they bring Lw to a higher professional level.

Mr Baker, let me say that I hope we'll have other offers (Mac-oriented) when 8 is out.

I love 8.
;)

theosmekhanes
06-06-2003, 01:54 PM
How about full versions of Particle storm or sasquatch? But this time make sure they are properly compiled to take advantage of MP- Altivec and Q-master.

toby
06-06-2003, 07:03 PM
I'll be upgrading regardless, but G2 would be kickass! Good idea!

battery555
06-06-2003, 08:22 PM
Right, strongly agreed with you darth mole. it will definitely make the upgrade more worth it with worley products or at least one. I'm in for sasquatch.:rolleyes:

turbo
06-06-2003, 08:46 PM
meh... well being in the low poly massively multiplayer game.. sasquatch is useless to me atm..

After Effects .. :D now there's something useful :D

Piolla
06-06-2003, 09:19 PM
I'd vote for Sas FULL and ACS.
FCP 4 would be awesome, but I will get it anyway...

ACS is still on top of my list, because I'm still a newbe on LW and caracter rigging is driving me crazy.

Aura for OS X wuldn't make me sad, though!

turbo
06-06-2003, 09:26 PM
ACS4 is cool, yep. I have it. It is only 90$ US, not a big price to pay.

Hehe.. this is silly .. like xmas wish list. NewTek bein' Santa.. :D :cool: :D

Piolla
06-06-2003, 09:38 PM
Originally posted by turbo
ACS4 is cool, yep. I have it. It is only 90$ US, not a big price to pay.

Hehe.. this is silly .. like xmas wish list. NewTek bein' Santa.. :D :cool: :D

Note that I want ACS and SAS...
and I've tryed Max on an old pc and hated it. I've played with Maya and hated also...
I've tryed LW and I loved it.

If NewTek can do a 3D app that I can use, for me they're Santa!

brownie
06-08-2003, 01:43 AM
So even if Sasquatch and ACS seem to be a real desire for most of us, we all ignore what LW8 will be, and it may include some of those features.

So, I had what seems to be a good idea for a new offer from Newtek when 8 is out:
- A beginner offer with DVD full of lessons
- A game-oriented offer with ACS...
- A video offer with DFX
- An animation offer with ACS, Deep paint and SASquatch
- A design offer with G2, Ozone...

Any suggestion?

battery555
06-08-2003, 07:31 AM
yeah "santa" like to see SASquatch,Hypersmooth,designer shadow,ACS and G2 bundle.:o

Piolla
06-08-2003, 10:14 AM
Yeap! Keep them coming, Santa! The more, the marrier!

jcool
06-09-2003, 07:32 AM
Hmm... 36 posts later and still no answer to my question.. Hello Newtek...If you don't like the first question, how about answering the second?

Chuck
06-09-2003, 09:11 AM
Originally posted by jcool
Hmm... 36 posts later and still no answer to my question.. Hello Newtek...If you don't like the first question, how about answering the second?

I answered both of your questions in my response on the 5th, just five posts below your original message. I also threw in the information about why we were offering an advance upgrade purchase to registered 7.5 owners, something we ordinarily do not do.

Quoting you and me:


I'm wondering if plans have changed and Newtek expects to be close to a release by Siggraph.

Our release estimate for fourth quarter is unchanged.


That said, how about a feature list and some details?

We have no plans to announce further details of LightWave 3D [8] until we preview it at SIGGRAPH.

jcool
06-09-2003, 10:27 AM
Egg on my face.. Sorry about that, I guess I should read more closely.. Although I am still curious at the reluctance to disclose a feature list.

serpicolugnut
06-09-2003, 11:00 AM
Egg on my face.. Sorry about that, I guess I should read more closely.. Although I am still curious at the reluctance to disclose a feature list.

Trade secrets my boy, trade secrets...

The 3D application market has become quite the cut throat business as of late. With NT and AW both dropping their prices below $2000 for their package, each feature becomes the possible difference between a sale or a loss to your competitor.

If NT announced LW 8's new features now, AW could have several months to work on those features being added to their application, and produce a release shortly thereafter.

Another possible reason is that some of these new features being worked on might not pass muster by the release date, and they might have to be left for the next release.

Either way, sit tight - Siggraph is rapidly approaching!

turbo
06-09-2003, 11:03 AM
heh what's AW? ;) :p

serpicolugnut
06-09-2003, 12:26 PM
AW = Alias Wavefront, makers of Maya...
NT = NewTek, makers of Lightwave...

turbo
06-09-2003, 01:28 PM
It was a joke, krabbit. To me there is only LW. :p

Beamtracer
06-09-2003, 03:21 PM
You might notice that 3rd party apps are often bundled as a "lite" version. We've got Sasquatch, but you have to pay to get all the features.

The current offer of bundling the Windows-only Digital Fusion is also a "lite" version, and you have to pay if you want to upgrade to the full version.

I imagine that any alternative offers might be similar in that only a "lite" version of the application will be included.

turbo
06-12-2003, 12:01 PM
It might be worth someone's time to take a look here. (http://www.credo-interactive.com/products/index.html)
Mocap and PowerPak are pretty cool.