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RedBull
07-20-2006, 03:06 AM
Does Nodal work with OGL at all?
For example using an Image in Nodal, will not display in OGL display at all,
as it does in the layer system?

ou can't even use a Color to update OGL color?
I know we can't use FPrime, but without at least some OGL feedback,
i find Nodal is really not as useful or as functional as the layer system.
It really still feels a bit patched together.

For example GLSL shaders were being hyped by NT for LW8.5.
As were PSShop blending modes, both of which i suprisingly find useful.

So when Nodal was included for LW9, it would of been excellent if the
PShop Blending Modes, and GLSL Procedurals/Gradients were added to Nodal as well. But at the very least i need OGL imagemaps.

As it is i get much better feedback in OGL through the LW Layer system
as well as FPrime so it just takes the shine off, what is otherwise a potentially a really cool nodal system.

I don't mind if sometimes NT can't make it work with 3rd parties,
but it should work at least as well as the previous system with LW's new faster OGL?

starbase1
07-20-2006, 03:08 AM
I was wondering the same thing. Came up with my normal mapped moon - if you try and set up a scene in Layout getting close, it's almost impossible with no feedback on where you are with teh sphere. (Well, lots of test renders required).

Is there a work around?

Nick

lilrayray77
07-20-2006, 07:47 AM
you can use viper can't you? It certainly isn't fprime but it does give you some realtime results.

duke
07-20-2006, 08:10 AM
Unfortunately Nodal doesn't currently pipe its info out to openGL.

starbase1
07-20-2006, 08:37 AM
you can use viper can't you? It certainly isn't fprime but it does give you some realtime results.

It's not good enough for setting up an animation...

Thing is, it's not that long ago I got a new graphics card, and I was really enjoying the whizzy detailled previews!

I can see myself having to set up scenes with stand-in objects to work out where stuff is going. Let's hope it appears early in the 9.n cycle...

Nick

Karmacop
07-20-2006, 08:38 AM
Considering how slow the open gl view can be with GLSL right now I'd hate to see it when they get it to match the node graph :p

I hope they do get the open gl view to at least show some level of node output, but I'd be more interested in a better viper ...

avkills
07-20-2006, 09:11 AM
I think a workaround would make a super low res copy of the image map you are using in Nodal, and map that image using the normal layers; once you turn on Nodal it will overturn the layers, but you'll still see your texture map in OpenGL.

-mark

RedBull
07-20-2006, 03:52 PM
GLSL may be a little slow, but being able to turn it off, on heavy scenes
as i do in 8.5 for example, would still be an advantage.
I still use it for quick placement, and my new PC handles it well.

On simple objects resizing fractal noise in realtime, is far better than relying on Viper or testrenders, and considering NT's ignorance of all things FPrime..
I feel like i've moved back to LW6 to do my texturing, it's really quite crap.

Gradients too, are all realtime in 8.5, and i believe we were promised in 8.5
that GLSL was to be enhanced and bump maps were to be added in LW9...
Seems like a new feature that once again just gets forgotten about, by NT.

I'm gonna go back to Layers and FPrime, which kind of defeats the purpose of including a new cool Nodal implentation really.. It's heaps of fun to play with,
but without feeback, it's just too many test renders...
And LW9 is a lot slower for small test renders too. All of these little things are major workflow killers for myself.

At the very least forget the GLSL shading, But honestly if it wasn't an important feature to LW8.x, than why did they spend so much time implementing it for that release, only to abandon it's "good idea" in LW9?
GLSL shading is not an option in the SDK either, so people for example like Denis, could not port his renderman shaders to utilize this kind of 8.5 GLSL tech.

At least implement the same standard OGL features, like color and mapping.
that LW's layer system has used since forever.

I mean it feels like 1999.... Meanwhile Modo06 is doing realtime normal and bump mapping, per pixel reflections and realtime reflection mapping....
Newtek meanwhile can't even change the color in OGL...
(shakes head in disbelief)

I mean i don't use OGL viewports i use Wireframe with multiple FPrime previews these days, Now i have no Fprime, No OGL, but a Nodal surface system.... What are we trading old features for new ones?, because that was bad trade IMO.

PS: Shouldn't Gradients have more option in Nodal?
i would like to see gradient match the layered version at least.
What about scale values, scale keys and opacity for example?
Or am i missing something? Again the layer version has better implentation that works with OGL, and Fprime.

monovich
07-20-2006, 04:20 PM
patience. I hope and expect they will fix this in time. They could have probably added openGL previews with nodal to 9, but you would have waited another month or two for 9 to be released.
I agree with everything you said except the complaining. Lightwave and Modo aren't twins, they are developing different things at different times. Just because Modo has some things doesn't mean LW sucks if it doesn't have them. In Modo you can't even animate the camera yet (besides the hack/script), now who's ahead in development?

Let's keep patient and keep things in perspective. Nodal is new. Give it some time.

RedBull
07-20-2006, 04:58 PM
patience. I hope and expect they will fix this in time. They could have probably added openGL previews with nodal to 9, but you would have waited another month or two for 9 to be released.
I agree with everything you said except the complaining. Lightwave and Modo aren't twins, they are developing different things at different times. Just because Modo has some things doesn't mean LW sucks if it doesn't have them. In Modo you can't even animate the camera yet (besides the hack/script), now who's ahead in development?

Let's keep patient and keep things in perspective. Nodal is new. Give it some time.

Just because some people take anything that isn't glowing positivity as complaining, doesn't make it so..... If i have legit problems/complaints or observations with software iv'e paid a lot of money.

These forums are designed to voice them, discuss, argue and look for better solutions to the problems... My customers don't wait for Newtek to "Possibly add feature X one day" So waiting and patience is nice for hobbyists...

Your excuse we could of waited another month is bogus, 7months overdue i would of quite happily waited another 6months, to make LW9 a complete and functional program. I used Modo as an example, Maya, Max, and XSI (probally blender) allow there nodal interfaces to affect OGL... Welcome to 2006.
Even LW's layers are in 2006, so you can compare it to itself if you must.
My god i'm not hear to play my feature is bigger than yours, (Who in front now?, please go away)
If Modo was so great, i wouldn't be posting on an NT forums for christ sake..

Monovich, did i say anything like "Newtek sucks, or Lightwave sucks"
gee i really can't stand who read a whole load of negitivity into words i didn't ever say. Over zealous NT enthusiasts do it a lot on these forums..
For me personally, there is nothing worse than people who complain about peoples right to make an observation, it's completely rude. keeping it in perspective is good advice.

People need to learn the only way to make things better is by indentifying
the underlying issues and problems which prevent it from being an even better product. Trivial complaining i agree is useless.. Observing limitations and looking for improvements is something i will continue to do as i use LW9 more and more. I suggest you get used to the reality, that is "Life and software is not perfect" And when i can areas to help make LW "more perfect" you wil get used to hearing my voice a lot.... I'm like a loudspeaker.... ;)

Karmacop
07-20-2006, 08:37 PM
On simple objects resizing fractal noise in realtime, is far better than relying on Viper or testrenders, and considering NT's ignorance of all things FPrime..
Yes, it's quite sad they didn't even make an attempt to help Worley isn't it? :bangwall:


I'm gonna go back to Layers and FPrime, which kind of defeats the purpose of including a new cool Nodal implentation really.. It's heaps of fun to play with,but without feeback, it's just too many test renders...
And LW9 is a lot slower for small test renders too.
Why not use Viper? It can do most of what you need when surfacing. I don't find test renders any slower than 8.5 either, what is slowing it down for you?


At the very least forget the GLSL shading, But honestly if it wasn't an important feature to LW8.x, than why did they spend so much time implementing it for that release, only to abandon it's "good idea" in LW9?

They didn't abandon it, they improved opengl in other ways. In 8.5 we got GLSL shading and people complained that they should have made open gl faster. Now with LW9 they improve the speed and you're annoyed because they "abandoned" GLSL. Despite what you think they can't improve everything at once.



At least implement the same standard OGL features, like color and mapping.
that LW's layer system has used since forever.
And how? Find out if there's a constand or image map plugged directly into the inputs for the surface node?

Karmacop
07-20-2006, 08:47 PM
People need to learn the only way to make things better is by indentifyingthe underlying issues and problems which prevent it from being an even better product. Trivial complaining i agree is useless.. Observing limitations and looking for improvements is something i will continue to do as i use LW9 more and more.
It's not that you point out limitations, it's how you do it. Do you think Newtek don't know about these limitations? Nodal GLSL would be great, but I think a bigger concern was/is improving the opengl speed in layout and moving modeler over to Layout's opengl engine. I'm sure Newtek would have loved Fprime to work in LW9 and they tried to make that possible, but it depends on how much "free" time Worley has to do this, and working with Worley to work out SDK details. Whenever I read your posts it's like you see an impending doom for Lightwave, that every other program is better, and that Newtek are terrible as they didn't implement some specific feature.

jameswillmott
07-20-2006, 08:53 PM
The only way nodes are going to work properly in OpenGL is if LW bakes the textures into a massive image map, and uses that.

Sure, you could rewrite the nodes we have to use GLSL, but what about all the third party ones? Now they have to be rewritten to use GLSL too? ( IFW2 node shaders, there are over 200 of them )

Baking is a robust way to implement EVERYthing into GL. Heck, it could even bake lowres radiosity too...

RedBull
07-20-2006, 10:30 PM
Despite what you think they can't improve everything at once. Like Monovich, "what YOU think" is almost trying to imply that you could have any actual idea of what "I THINK" which of course isn't true...
Perhaps try not to be so arrogant in assuming, as i find it a little embarrassing when people do such things. When you make an assumption, you make an *** out of U and ME..... Never assume you KNOW what others are thinking..... It's just ignorant to do so..... Your the ones reading dark, sinister things into messages..... Play them backwards in an audiotape, and listen to the demonic sounds and hidden messages i have written, in my satanic voice of doom.. I mean get a life guys.....


It's not that you point out limitations, it's how you do it.
Do you ever notice the arrogance in your own posts?
Sorry i didn't know we all had to do things your way Karmacop!
Again it's amazing how you believe only your belief is worthy.....
So now it's okay for you to tell me how i should do it? (ROFL)

Glenn it's not about "how i do it" that should concern you? I'm concerned that you have nothing better to do with yourselves, than worry "How i do it"

Do you often worry how others write there opinions on 3D forums of 3D software limitations and issues of strangers? If so CGtalk has many hours of interesting reading for yourself. You see i don't like the way you do things either, i just don't take the time to try and disagree with everypoint you make as a result.

You can have your opinion, but i will share mine too... (but usually like to keep it more on topic than this useless reply, to your useless reply) (no offence meant) From the looks of it, more than one person agrees with my POV....And at least 2 agree with my point of view, but i would prefer i didn't do it in such a harsh way.... I got news for ya, i'm not here to make you feel better.

I am who i am, if everybody wants to take the glass as half-empty view on every post, every time, and doom and gloom in my words when there aren't any, it's you people who are seeing it as negitive. i make comment on my thoughts of LW..... Freedom of speech and yada,yada,yada....


Whenever I read your posts it's like you see an impending doom for Lightwave, that every other program is better, and that Newtek are terrible as they didn't implement some specific feature.

No, you mean your mind reads doom and gloom into my words.. And your looking for such negitive things in my posts...
You would like to believe i see doom and gloom, just so you can write these replies telling me your ways better..... Yeah i love that my posts get such reaction from users such as yourself, who have literally NOTHING better to do, than worry about what YOU think my opinion is, and how it differs to yours. People who read doom and gloom in every post, are my only problem...

And then i read that quote again, and i think who cares if "I read your posts, it's like you see an impending doom for LW"
Is my opinion really that important, i am just one user....... It should not change your opinion or what future you see, nor anybody elses..

The only thing i can suggest for people like yourself, is to not read or respond to my posts, and maybe pay less attention to the problems of others, and only worry about the problems you yourself face.... I know logic is an amazing thing....

Because i'm getting really sick of all the naysayers who believe the sky is falling, just because i have criticism of something in LW...
Take it anyway you want, i'm not a paid employee of NT. I'm a paying user.

When people stop criticizing, that's when Newtek should be worried....
And that's when doom and gloom into my words... Beauty is in the eye of the beholder... Anyway this was about some minor complaints about Nodal,
Now it seems like a back and forth he said she said, by some uptight people, who have too much time on their hands...... I'm not interested in personalities or ego's or your opinions, of my opinions.... (should i be?)

I've only used LW9 seriously for a day and these are the issues i'm noticing.
Anyway thanks for the replies and feedback from everyone..... I expect plenty more in a new release. I was hoping it was just just a setting i had to turn off or on to make it work.

If GLSL was an option in the SDK i would of ported some of my own shaders to use it.... I agree that GLSL maybe a little to advantageous for Newtek, to add everywhere... But basic OGL mapping is a complete must.

Gui Lo
07-20-2006, 11:31 PM
I think one of NT strengths is that it lets people in these forums speak their mind.

I have noticed a few strange items too.
Thank goodness they left in Layers and did not go totally nodal. Gradient works differently in Layers and nodes. The repeat function is not there in Layers.

I joined the Open Beta just before the release and now I am quite dissapointed that Modeller does not have phantom points when using CC.

Actually I am suprised that this went through to the release version. Is there a switch to turn this function on or do others just ignore it?

It seems the LW9 is a house that is well built and very stable but it still needs a sofa, tv remote and other little bits. Livable but not really homely (yet).

Gui Lo

Karmacop
07-20-2006, 11:52 PM
Like Monovich, "what YOU think" is almost trying to imply that you could have any actual idea of what "I THINK" which of course isn't true...
Perhaps try not to be so arrogant in assuming, as i find it a little embarrassing when people do such things.
I make these assumptions because of what you imply:
"It really still feels a bit patched together"
"Seems like a new feature that once again just gets forgotten about, by NT"
I assume that you think NT should improve everythign at once because you imply that something is patched together or forgotten about.



Do you ever notice the arrogance in your own posts?

Sometimes, and I've gotten in trouble with my arrogance, but I don't think anyone has mentioned displeasure with me on these forums besides you.


Glenn it's not about "how i do it" that should concern you? I'm concerned that you have nothing better to do with yourselves, than worry "How i do it"
I'm worried because there are several people that are worried about it, and I think you've even been told by one of the moderators to cool it ... and I'm fairly sure I told you then that you should change how your write your posts too.


Do you often worry how others write there opinions on 3D forums of 3D software limitations and issues of strangers? If so CGtalk has many hours of interesting reading for yourself. You see i don't like the way you do things either, i just don't take the time to try and disagree with everypoint you make as a result.
My problem is that you're on a Lightwave forum, and reading other posts you're obviously happy with Lightwave, but other times you sound like a troll. It's fine to comment on somethign you see lacking in Lightwave, but you always seem to put a negative twist on it as my quotes show.


And then i read that quote again, and i think who cares if "I read your posts, it's like you see an impending doom for LW"
Is my opinion really that important, i am just one user....... It should not change your opinion or what future you see, nor anybody elses..
The problem is that you sound like a troll and because of that people will ignore you or not take your oppinion the way it should.

[/QUOTE]If GLSL was an option in the SDK i would of ported some of my own shaders to use it.... I agree that GLSL maybe a little to advantageous for Newtek, to add everywhere... But basic OGL mapping is a complete must.[/QUOTE]
Are you ever going to release the publicly? I've been waiting for ever to see somethign from you Scott :)

RedBull
07-21-2006, 03:04 AM
I assume that you think

You see, you lost my interest with - I assume - - you think
I'm not interested in others assumptions of my thoughts.
(people do say that i'm a thinker though... ;)


Are you ever going to release the publicly?

Only to the select chosen ones... ;) procedural math is a personal hobby and one reason why i really do love the idea of Nodal is Lightwave varied 3rd party procedurals. Most of my shaders are based on Marvin's original shaders or various renderman shaders. With some extra inspiration from others like Denis, who did marvelous Nodal implentation of Renderman procedurals . I do have some plans for a few Layout Mesh Edit plugins, and possibly some other ideas for some public stuff though....


I've been waiting for ever to see somethign from you Scott :)
Yeah i know, it's nice to be Rockstar of 3D, with groupies waiting on my every next word. You just keep plodding along Karmacop, i've seen you hang around some of the smarter people in 3D, some of it's bound to be rubbing off. ;) And you know those Australians are just a talented bunch.....

I must say Nodal is very addictive.... (no i mean addiction in a good way, not like a drug addicition, which i guess could be a considered a negitive way of looking at things)

Oh and Glenn..... DX10 is superior to OGL....(ducks and runs)

Gui Lo:
I agree with everything that you said! :thumbsup:

bryphi7
07-21-2006, 02:46 PM
James,
I normally respect your posts, but that is just a joke! Why is it that other programs have no problem displaying their nodal in OGL or DX. The answer isn't baking! Its proper programming !

mouse_art
07-21-2006, 03:06 PM
erhm procedurals, in XSI as example you can view it only(besides render region) in OGL with doing some similar workaround as in LW.


And i don't believe that displaying the color will change the world.
If you have to use in LW8.x/9 Viper/Fprime(yes not yet nodal), or in XSI the render region does not really matter.

But i'll agree that NT has to refine that things more (OGL,GLSL,Nodal ect.)




Oh and Glenn..... DX10 is superior to OGL....(ducks and runs)


erhm i don't care as long vista is not final. :D

Karmacop
07-21-2006, 08:20 PM
Oh and Glenn..... DX10 is superior to OGL....(ducks and runs)
You're an evil, evil man ;)

RedBull
07-21-2006, 10:35 PM
You're an evil, evil man ;)

Hehehe, see you're always seeing the negitive in people.... ;)

Meanwhile one other niggly problem i'm having, has anyone had troubles with Nodal and Viper becoming out of sync?

For example, when you first start using Nodal it's fine but somewhere along the line, Viper stops updating my Node connections.. I have to manually hit update on viper for the correct result.... The only way to fix it was to restart Lightwave. It's only happened twice, but i can't repeat it yet.

I've also had slightly different colors from my F9 render to Viper quite a bit.

Has anyone else noticed these issues?

Anyway, teething problems i expect.... Nodal will eventually totally replace the layer system for myself with a few enhancements and Fprime support. (i'm surprised) I find Nodal is much more intuitive to use than XSI's Shadertree so far. I would sure love a Nodal Darktree, but i beleive it would have to be done internally or by a third party... But that would be awesome!!!

Karmacop
07-22-2006, 12:19 AM
I don't think I've seen them come out of sync ... so Viper basically doesn't know that the node graph has changed?

Different colours can be cause by many things because Viper only stores some data. It doesn't do light fall off, it doesn't ray trace etc. But if there's something that should get coloured properly and isn't then it's something to look at.

Stooch
07-22-2006, 01:28 AM
yep. the worst kind of criticism of LW is silence.

RedBull
07-22-2006, 01:36 AM
I don't think I've seen them come out of sync ... so Viper basically doesn't know that the node graph has changed?

Yeah after some time in Nodal, Viper stops responding to node tweaks... So i could make a hundred updates or connections/reconnections to every aspect of my node setup, but Viper won't show it until i hit Viper render.

I still haven't locked down exactly when it happens, both times i noticed
i had done several things before i noticed it wasn't updating automatically anymore.

Anyway i found a reliable way to use Nodal Displacements with Fprime preview
(woohoo) so i'm fairly happy playing with that area today... :)


Different colours can be cause by many things because Viper only stores some data. It doesn't do light fall off, it doesn't ray trace etc. But if there's something that should get coloured properly and isn't then it's something to look at.

Yeah i believe it's the latter, however i may of been using third party Node,
so i will check it out first... Thanks!

bryphi7
07-22-2006, 12:26 PM
erhm procedurals, in XSI as example you can view it only(besides render region) in OGL with doing some similar workaround as in LW.


And i don't believe that displaying the color will change the world.
If you have to use in LW8.x/9 Viper/Fprime(yes not yet nodal), or in XSI the render region does not really matter.

But i'll agree that NT has to refine that things more (OGL,GLSL,Nodal ect.)

:D

How about a bump map or a normal map, they still don't even work in ogl with the layer system! WHY?

Penforhire
07-23-2006, 09:07 AM
I've wondered if Newtek wasn't planning a DX9/DX10 shader implementation but I can see the dilemma. That path (DirectX) is traditionally the home/hobbyist shading system versus OpenGL's "professional" status, not to mention a strictly-MS Windows thing. But I read somewhere about other professional software going to the DirectX display-abstraction system.

Two OpenGL standards groups (the big two?) recently merged back together so I do expect some motion on the OpenGL side. But the timescale is completely unknown.