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Truecoz
07-19-2006, 02:50 PM
I saw this tutorial for skin deformation using Syflex -

http://www.syflex.biz/tut_skin01.html

Does anyone know if this is a viable solution for skin deformation?

Since syflex will be available for Lightwave, this would be very cool.

But can the technique used in the tutorial work for a high-end production utilizing LW?

If so, then LW would finally have a plug-in to do skin deformation properly. Currently, I donít think there is anything like it for LW (I may be wrong here, <anyone>).

Chris M.

hrgiger
07-19-2006, 03:30 PM
Well I'm not sure but it looks like they're using a dedicated muscle system as well so I'm not sure that you could use Syflex in such a way for Lightwave. I'm sure if you could build morph shapes with some geometry, you might be able to but I don't think it would be a very easy way of doing it.
Lightwave is supposed to be getting some nice upgrades in the way of character animation and I would be very surprised if we don't see some improvements in the options that we have for skinning. In fact, I'd be downright disappointed.

prospector
07-19-2006, 03:34 PM
SplineGod did a tut LONG ago on how to do this so it's nothing new in LW.
Since ver 7? 8?
It works well too but it would seem like a lot of extra work to make all the muscles then the skin.

pooby
07-19-2006, 04:33 PM
Theoretically, you could do a muscle system in LW with Syflex, and it would certainly be your best bet. But making the underlying muscle rig wouldn't be that easy with the current set of tools.

There isn't a way of doing it in LW that I know of currently. You can just about pull off a simple test of a bicep (with mixed results) using polyfit or cloth fx but that's about it. Try to actually make a working rig with it and you'd be wasting your time.

Truecoz
07-19-2006, 07:11 PM
Well I'm not sure but it looks like they're using a dedicated muscle system as well so I'm not sure that you could use Syflex in such a way for Lightwave.

In the deforming skin tutorial it states -
"There is also syFlesh now which can be used for that purpose. But those things are for another tutorial..."

I was hoping to get someone experienced with Syflex to confirm that skin deformation could be done this was for commercial production. If so I'm going to buy it!

Chris M.

Bog
07-19-2006, 07:37 PM
Assuming Syflex will grok on-the-fly geometry deformations, you can muscle-rig using driven morphs hooked into the angles of bones.

This will - theoretically - simulate muscles sliding beneath flesh.

If this actually works though, then I may need a lie-down with a cold cloth across my eyebrows.

hrgiger
07-19-2006, 08:01 PM
I was hoping to get someone experienced with Syflex to confirm that skin deformation could be done this was for commercial production.


I'll let you know once I have it.:)

pooby
07-20-2006, 02:09 AM
I have syflex (only got it recently).

It's going to still be a lot of hard work, but I am pretty sure it can be done, as the calculations are very accurate. I think you will find it hard to get a 'confirmation' because these muscle rigs are actually a lot rarer than they appear to be. Most people just do 'tests' of biceps etc to satiate their curiosity. A whole body rig with complete simulation would be months of R and D.
Search the Maya and XSI sites for any examples.

hrgiger
07-20-2006, 02:14 AM
It sounds like a lot more work then what it would be worth. I probably won't even try it unless a muscle system becomes available for Lightwave. But I have been dying for some decent cloth simulation in Lightwave.

Bog
07-20-2006, 05:28 AM
It sounds like a lot more work then what it would be worth.

I imagine if you were doing a Hero Character for a motion picture, it'd be well worth the wear and tear on your TD ;)

For lesser stuff, a full sim-skin rig is still swatting a fly with a Buick.

Truecoz
07-20-2006, 02:24 PM
It's going to still be a lot of hard work, but I am pretty sure it can be done, as the calculations are very accurate. I think you will find it hard to get a 'confirmation' because these muscle rigs are actually a lot rarer than they appear to be. Most people just do 'tests' of biceps etc to satiate their curiosity. A whole body rig with complete simulation would be months of R and D.
Search the Maya and XSI sites for any examples.
:agree:
It would be a lot of work, this level of character dynamics always is, but it seems to me once you have the proper human set-up you could use it over and over for all humanistic style characters. I would build the skeletal and muscles in modeler. Then rig it up in Layout, applying proper dynamics/elasticity to each muscle that required it (not all muscles), using syflex. The rig I'd use would exactly match the character animation rig. Then I could create the animation on my main character rig.

Then TD work would require the animation from the character to be applied to the muscle dynamic system I created, doing this via motion mixer. Run simulation to get the muscles working and make sure it is all to my liking. Then add skin according to the deforming skin tutorial on syflex website. After low-mesh skin is calculated, use Meta_link to deform the actual character's high-mesh skin.

Does this sound feasible?

As long as all the above worked my main concern would be calculation time.

How fast are Syflex calculations?:jam:

Thanks,

Chris M.

pooby
07-20-2006, 04:29 PM
Calculation times seem good, but I haven't done anything anywhere near this level of collision detail, which is what eats up time..
The good thing is that it doesn't spazz out very much, unlike cloth fx, so you can be more confident if, say, you set it off overnight, that it is actually calculating the skin rather than just waking up to find the sim has gone mental.

Your above method sounds pretty solid, but i'd not bother with the Metalink part. I think youd need a decent level of poly detail for Syflex anyway, so you'd need to do it on your main mesh.. I presume that the LW version will let you just use part of a mesh for the cloth, so it wouldn't need to calculate the hands feet and head etc. which would keep things simpler.
Have you tried Motion mixer to apply motion from one rig to another?

I am very curious to see how Syflex works in LW.. It will be quite different to the XSI version, as you can't select points and polys for pinning in layout.
I presume it will use Weightmapping for this.

Truecoz
07-23-2006, 07:18 AM
Sorry not to quickly write back, but I was very busy this weekend!



Have you tried Motion mixer to apply motion from one rig to another?

Yes. As long as you select the exact same bones for every motion you save out is works really well! Check out my website, cramsite.com, go to the "Born to Ball" animation demo. The motion is mocap from Motion Analysis Studios great stuff. The shirt is LW cloth fx. I'd have a start pose to drape the shirt and use motion mixer to blend into the animation. :)

I am very curious to see how Syflex works in LW.. It will be quite different to the XSI version, as you can't select points and polys for pinning in layout.
I presume it will use Weightmapping for this.

:agree: