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View Full Version : The Hub not working with a firewall



rtl114
07-18-2006, 06:27 PM
hey All,

Anyone know how to fix the issue of the HUB not working with the firewall. I called Newtek support and they told me to ad '-0' after the pathe to the program, but that disables the HUB. That's not really a good solution to me. Does anyone else no of a better way to work around this problem. I've even turned off the firewall and it still does not work.

Thanks,
Ross

stib
07-18-2006, 07:14 PM
Me too. I've had huge problems with the hub and modeler in particular hanging when loading. I'm using zone alarm, and I've turned it off, manually set the settings, everything. I ended up doing a re-install and it's working at the moment. I never had this issue with 8.5, once I told the firewall that it was a friend the firewall just let it do its thing.

creativecontrol
07-18-2006, 08:03 PM
hey All,

Anyone know how to fix the issue of the HUB not working with the firewall. I called Newtek support and they told me to ad '-0' after the pathe to the program, but that disables the HUB. That's not really a good solution to me. Does anyone else no of a better way to work around this problem. I've even turned off the firewall and it still does not work.

Thanks,
Ross

I had to set Generic Host Process to have server rights. This cured it for me.

newtekker04
07-18-2006, 08:18 PM
Yeah, this is an issue that frustrated me for some time, before I came across this thread. (http://www.newtek.com/forums/showthread.php?t=49589) I have Norton, and even after I approve the hub, Modeler and Layout still hang. That means I can only use LW with the hub disabled when I'm on the internet (sucks). I'm not sure of a way around it.:thumbsdow

rtl114
07-19-2006, 07:37 AM
I had to set Generic Host Process to have server rights. This cured it for me.

I do not know how to do this.

I don't know much about the innerworkings of computers, but this problem seems like pretty poor planning on Newtek's part. Why should I have to disable, uninstall, or reconfigure anything in order to make lightwave work? I've never had to do that with any of my other programs.

Exception
07-19-2006, 07:48 AM
It is because the hub communicates using TCP/IP protocols between modeler and lightwave, which is smarter than you think it is, but it creates complexity because firewalls detect it as traffic to outside, eventhough it isn't. You just need to configure your firewall to give full port access in and out to modeler.exe, layout.exe and hub.exe.

Concerning norton, that is a notorious software package, known to cqause problems across the board with systems in general. It would be my humble suggestion to perhaps look into another protection for your pc. there's some good free ones, and in the same price range there is also a lot of offerings. Norton slows your system down quite a bit.

Kurtis
07-19-2006, 07:51 AM
LightWave v9 is a separate install from LightWave 8 with separate processes and config files. As such, your firewall may or may not recognize it as an approved app just because you approved access by LightWave 8. It's going to depend a lot on the particular firewall app and how it is configured.

The instructions from Tech Support are the best they can give you to get you up and running until you can reslove the firewall issue yourself. They are not able to provide specific settings for apps produced by other companies, including firewalls. You should be able to find out how to set the necessary permissions by contacting Tech Support for the manufacturer of your particular firewall app.

creativecontrol
07-19-2006, 07:54 AM
I do not know how to do this.

I don't know much about the innerworkings of computers, but this problem seems like pretty poor planning on Newtek's part. Why should I have to disable, uninstall, or reconfigure anything in order to make lightwave work? I've never had to do that with any of my other programs.


I know. :agree: I could'nt agree more. I've complained about it several times. Maybe if more people do they'll fix it. What firewall are you using?

Kurtis
07-19-2006, 08:19 AM
I don't know much about the innerworkings of computers, but this problem seems like pretty poor planning on Newtek's part. Why should I have to disable, uninstall, or reconfigure anything in order to make lightwave work? I've never had to do that with any of my other programs.

The way LightWave's Hub currently works is to allow communication between Layout and Modeler via TCP/IP protocols. I can't answer why, I'm not a programmer. Anyway, since these are the same protocols used by Internet-enabled applications, the firewall thinks LightWave is trying to access the Internet, even though it's actually not. In order to protect your system against unauthorized access to the Internet by an application, your firewall wants you to tell it that it's ok for LightWave to use these protocols.

Since we've conducted a number of surveys about customer desire for integration, and they invariably come up evenly split between wanting integration and wanting the apps kept separate, as the integration of Modeler functions into Layout continues, you will have the opportunity more and more to choose to work in Layout only or continue to work with both Modeler and Layout, your choice. If you decide to work in Layout only, you will not need to utilize the Hub, or the TCP/IP protocols it accesses, when using LightWave.

Penforhire
07-19-2006, 09:03 AM
I've been using Zone Alarm's firewall, and set permissions as the notify-boxes pop up, but since I'm also behind a hardware router on a DSL line I decided to strip it (ZA) completely and lo-and-behold I saw an instant v9 stability & speed improvement.

In theory anti-virus and anti-spyware programs should be all we need behind most modern hardware routers. Guess I'll be finding out if that's true...

rtl114
07-19-2006, 09:14 AM
I know. :agree: I could'nt agree more. I've complained about it several times. Maybe if more people do they'll fix it. What firewall are you using?

I have the windows firewall and a firewall that is included in a package that my cable provider (adelphia) supplies. I have them both turned off, but I still have the problem. I'm not sure how to configure them to allow the HUB to pass thru. Someone told me that the router I use has a better firewall and to just uninstall the software firewalls. I have not tried that.

Thanks for the info Kurtis.

relik
07-19-2006, 09:57 AM
Hardware firewalls are vastly superior to software ones, and a decent router can be had for around $100 or less. A router, in addition to giving you control over access ports to your system (these are virtual "ports" used by various applications to send and receive data through the connection. E-mail typically comes in on port 110 and goes out on port 24-for example) also allows you to map an internal address space for connected computers that is different from the external address space your internet connection has. In simpler terms, your external IP address is like the address of your building, but the router prevents anyone from being able to know where your office is in that building.

Essentially a software firewall just turns off ALL the ports by default, then asks you if it's okay to let a particular application go through. Software firewalls were designed largely for home users who have a single computer hooked directly to their cable or DSL modem (or dial-up), and frankly, who understand very little about computer communications or security.

Consider that if a viral application can get in through your e-mail, and then "ask" you to open a port, the software firewall is pretty pointless unless you know what you are opening and why- since most of these access commands are of the flavor "oingoboingo.dll has requested access to port 42. Do you wish to grant access to port 42 for process oingoboingo.dll?"

I have had issues with many of the consumer level "security bundles" from all manufacturers and any TCP/IP enabled device, even if that device doesn't send commands to the network or is attached via network wiring. For example, I had an HP All-In-One that was either TCP/IP or USB connected. When used with the McAffee Personal Security Suite, I had to disable the installed "Privacy Manager"-which theoretically is just something to keep your identity info locked down-in order to get the printer to work. This was the case whether the unit was attached via the USB cable or not.

Personally I disable the MS firewall on all my machines that are behind a router/firewall. While it may ignore the LW Hub issues, it also can ignore a lot else, and just sucks clock cycles. Be aware that Windows auto-updates may have a tendency to turn this back on-so if you start experiencing problems for "no apparent reason" think Microsoft-that's usually it.

Norton's firewall is notoriously bad for crashing or contaminating applications which it should not have anything at all to do with. Largely these are "network" aware applications which poll the local network for other copies of the same license being live. The firewall sees the polling as an illegal internet request.

This is really the nature of the problem-it is not Newtek's issue, it falls to the manufacturer of the software firewall. There is no simple mechanism in the consumer level products to distinguish an internal network command from an internet request, so anything that runs TCP/IP is subject to blocking.

The hardware router, on the other hand, immediately realizes that calls outside of the local address space are meant for the internet, and calls inside that space should be considered "safe". Hence, at least in my experience, the router or hardware firewall (which can be a different device) does not interfere with the operation of TCP/IP commands being sent to the local network.

The hardware router is not a substitute for anti-viral software. All it does is make it more difficult for random applications and hackers to access your machine or network. You still need an anti-virus software system, and anti-spyware, because the majority of these are coming into your system by "invitation". Also, once inside, they can, as I pointed out, easily defeat a software firewall by simply asking for access, and will pass through the router if the outbound and inbound ports it uses are open.

Configuring a hardware router is not all that complicated. Think of it as just locking the doors and windows on your house. There are some that maybe you want to keep open, and some you definitely want closed. The issue is often that you don't know which is which. Usually the remapping of addresses is sufficient to block most attacks, and there are various online resources that define the common ports used by e-mail, browsers, ftp, telnet, etc. If you add a new application and it won't work, generally the tech support people can provide the correct port info for you to reset the router.

Speaking of that, it would be most useful if NT Tech Support could provide the ports used by the Hub, Layout, Modeler, and potentially the dongle software as well-so that people could configure their firewalls accordingly.

If you are still experiencing issues when the software firewall is disabled, it may mean that there is some other interference. I noted in several recent threads that the Hub from LW 8X and LW 9 do not play nicely together, and potentially if you were running the former and didn't manually close out the Hub (and oh-reboot to make sure it cleared from memory ) then LW 9 would become unstable as the old Hub would try to process the new commands.
That being said, I have also noted that disabled firewalls sometimes don't disable, and certainly you will need to reboot with them shut down before they will start letting things through.

Just a final note, some hardware manufacturers have taken to adding their own firewall/security systems to over the counter machines. So even if you turn off MS Firewall, and the one you installed, there could be another one lurking about. -R

creativecontrol
07-19-2006, 10:07 AM
The way LightWave's Hub currently works is to allow communication between Layout and Modeler via TCP/IP protocols. I can't answer why, I'm not a programmer. Anyway, since these are the same protocols used by Internet-enabled applications, the firewall thinks LightWave is trying to access the Internet, even though it's actually not. In order to protect your system against unauthorized access to the Internet by an application, your firewall wants you to tell it that it's ok for LightWave to use these protocols.

Since we've conducted a number of surveys about customer desire for integration, and they invariably come up evenly split between wanting integration and wanting the apps kept separate, as the integration of Modeler functions into Layout continues, you will have the opportunity more and more to choose to work in Layout only or continue to work with both Modeler and Layout, your choice. If you decide to work in Layout only, you will not need to utilize the Hub, or the TCP/IP protocols it accesses, when using LightWave.

I really really DO like seperate apps. I just don't like how the hub uses network resources like TCP/IP to exchange information. Is there no other good way to share data??? Please check with your programmers.

jwilli3
07-19-2006, 10:49 AM
I really really DO like seperate apps. I just don't like how the hub uses network resources like TCP/IP to exchange information. Is there no other good way to share data??? Please check with your programmers.

Your missing the point, using TCP/IP works great. The problem is that software firewalls are terrible things to have on your computer and this is a good example of why.

Penforhire
07-19-2006, 02:51 PM
If it worked so great we wouldn't have these issues with it. How is it that other programs that work together, say Adobe Photoshop and Adobe Bridge, do not require this IP nonsense? It is not as if Modeler and Layout reside on different physical, or even logical, machines. Seems to me that would be the value of TCP/IP communication.

Exception
07-19-2006, 04:50 PM
If it worked so great we wouldn't have these issues with it. How is it that other programs that work together, say Adobe Photoshop and Adobe Bridge, do not require this IP nonsense? It is not as if Modeler and Layout reside on different physical, or even logical, machines. Seems to me that would be the value of TCP/IP communication.


Because they're just swapping file data, and lightwave is a bit more advanced than that.

Penforhire
07-19-2006, 05:20 PM
I still haven't read a great reason why it needs to swap data that way. What is the advantage to TCP/IP when you're not running multiple logical or hardware machines? Since they are installed together they can be hard-coded to communicate directly, no need for an abstraction like IP.

stib
07-19-2006, 10:04 PM
I saw the generic host process listed in the firewall programmes list, and was wondering about it. "Generic host process"..? does that mean somebody forgot to give it a name somewhere? It's a bit slack innit? Like those newbie web pages you see where the page title is "untitled document".

Still at least this discussion has opened my eyes up to why I should uninstall my firewall software, as my work computer is behind a hardware firewall.

rtl114
07-20-2006, 05:36 AM
Software Firewalls may be a pain and pretty much worthless, but aren’t they a fact of life now? Windows installs one in there operating systems. Shouldn't Newtek take this in account and plan around them? I've been using lightwave professionally and personally since 7. I love the separate applications, but this HUB issue really seems like poor planning on Newteks part.

Dodgy
07-25-2006, 03:01 AM
I was also getting slow startup of modeler, if it got past loading the menus it would pause for a very long time when setting up the viewports. Turning off the hub fixed it. It seems the cause is Norton's latest AV (I think it tries to take over firewalling, despite me having a firewall setup) as I uninstalled that at home and it fixed it, but I don't have that option at work, and I would really like to be able to work with the hub on. Any chance we could get a fix soon?

mj418
07-28-2006, 03:21 PM
For what it's worth, I had the hub problem as well. I'm using McAffee's software firewall, and have had no problem with Hub from LW 7 to Lw 8.5. And for that matter, the LW 9 Hub worked fine for a day, and then just suddenly Modeler would crash. I assumed it was a firewall problem, and then read in here about turning off Windows Firewall.
But I don't like shutting off the firewall, and I don't think I sjhould have to anyway, then I discoverd that with both Win firewall (XP..SP2, 32 bit) and McAffee, I could disallow Hub access, and immediately gvive it access right back, and since then it';s all been working together just fine. No crashes or hanging, with both firewalls and hub all running.
Kinda weird, but it worked.

XiliX
07-28-2006, 09:14 PM
I've resolved my firewall problem problem. I'm running Trend Micro Internet Security 2006 (TM IS06). If anyone else is running TM IS06 and need specific help with their settings reply here and I'll be glad to help.

XiliX

Dodgy
07-29-2006, 06:10 AM
Uninstalling the sentinel driver and installing 7.3 (the one which comes with LW) fixed it for me. It says during installation that it affect firewall settings, so that is probably the fix.

DragonFist
07-29-2006, 06:22 AM
Firewall didn't fix it for me, least not permenently.

I've gone now for a day without having to "refix" this and what seems to have handled it was making exceptions for layout, modeler and the hub in the Data Execution Prevention section under control panel/system/advanced/performance/DEP.

So far, (crosses fingers) no problems since.

SCS5
07-29-2006, 07:43 AM
Yeah, this is an issue that frustrated me for some time, before I came across this thread. (http://www.newtek.com/forums/showthread.php?t=49589) I have Norton, and even after I approve the hub, Modeler and Layout still hang. That means I can only use LW with the hub disabled when I'm on the internet (sucks). I'm not sure of a way around it.:thumbsdow

If you have Norton on your system, REMOVE it & BURN IT! Norton screws with your systems internal settings and SCREWS YOUR SYSTEM!! It ground our office network to a halt. I trouble-shot our office network for a week before I found out that Norton was the culprit! When I removed it from all of the PC's, shazam! All the Network,Internet, Communication problems went away. NORTON SUCKS!!

When they integrate Modeling tools into Layout, hopefully, the hub will no longer be an issue...THANK GOD!!!

P.S. Please Integrate Modeler & Layout by Yesterday,:D Thanks