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Qslugs
07-17-2006, 11:58 PM
Hate to ask this question. When will there ever be a undo that actually accounts for everything you do in the scene?

ercaxus
07-18-2006, 01:23 AM
No way!! I love it when all the bone tools make fun of me. Or when I can undo keyframing in IKB but not in regular move/rotate/size mode.
Did you know you actually don't need any drugs, alcohol etc if you can hit your head real hard (an many times) against the wall, desk corners, chairs, and monitors(plastic parts only, the glass gets all dirty). I also highly recommend listening to some hard/noisy music while doing that, so you can go with the rhythm. I think we can kinda call it "headbanging"
The coolest part is after a while they take you to a nice place where they give you those super cool shirts with arms going behind and tied in the back. They put you into a super comfortable room(last one had the nicest padded walls I have seen so far) and you don't have to work anymore. :D

I believe they mentioned some undos, history etc. somewhere sometime so we might be seeing some good stuff soon.

Qslugs
07-18-2006, 09:29 AM
I hope so. And to be a bit clearer of my request, I want the ability to undo deleted things from my layout, and I am requesting only one undo buffer for everything, not undo based on area of program (graph editor, layout....) Or at least an option to give me only one undo buffer.

To be honest though, one would think that if a rewrite would have happend, that the Undo function would be one of the first things that would have gotten implemented. The conspiracy side of me thinks that this will never happen. I hope I am incorrect.

freakmoomin
07-18-2006, 03:50 PM
yep

this drives me barking mad!

one of the first things that should have been added was the undo? and not some crappy thing a proper undo that undos on EVERYTHING!

this just makes LW so frustrating to work with at times and being an animator REALLY slows me down. In other packages i can bang away and try things out, but with LW i really need to take everything slow incase i press a wrong button by accident and bugger my scene up! I dont know how many times ive pressed a simple button or a slip of the mouse and buggered my scene up.....in any other package it would be a simple 'ctrl z' and thats me sorted.......

sorry but this just infuriates me that nobody seems to be taking this on board (users and newtek) ive posted about undos on other boards and all i get is "undos dont bother me that much"? maybe ive just been spoiled using other packages because i do remember a time when i only used LW and i didnt really bother about undo either........

KSTAR
07-18-2006, 07:43 PM
The only one that really makes me scratch my head, is hitting the tab key and going into subpatch mode was suposed to be removed from the undo buffer back in LW8. There was actually a demo movie made showing this, and I remember seeing it in action during the Siggraph stream a few years ago :stumped:

SCS5
07-20-2006, 07:21 AM
Undo?????? ...........Holy [email protected]#[email protected]#$^%@#&%$$!.............What a concept:)

Can you actually do that in other programs?
Based on how quickly Layout's catching up to the rest of the 3D world, I think we'll see Undo incorporated throughout Lightwave in 5 years, or so:)

starbase1
07-20-2006, 08:27 AM
Undo in surfacing really does me in, it's just too easy to edit the wrong one if you have a lot of them in the scene. And it makes me very reluctant to try and edit multiple surfaces at once, even when it should make sense.

And on the subject of seriously dumb ommisions, WHY CAN'T I CHOOSE THE JPEG QUALITY FOR IMAGE SAVING?!?!?

Nick

Phil
07-21-2006, 03:14 AM
Errr. This doesn't really address your point, but why are you saving to JPEG in any case? It would be saner to save to an uncompressed format and generate the JPEG files from those files. Granted, LW allows you to save to JPEG, but I've never really understood why compressed output is not strongly discouraged (for stills and for movie files).

There are no end of tools out there that are capable of batch image manipulation and conversion, including Photoshop and Paintshop Pro. Many are also free of charge.

It's a similar issue, conceptually, to 'bad' direct-to-movie render approach - if something goes wrong, you lose all your rendered output, or if you set the compression level too high, it looks terrible.

LW doesn't really warn against either approach, and it probably should.

Exception
07-21-2006, 03:21 AM
In the same boat: why doesn't TiFF give you at least the option to save out LZH compressed files? I mean, who wants 40mb tiff files when they can be 2mb for the same image?

Lightwolf
07-21-2006, 03:33 AM
WHY CAN'T I CHOOSE THE JPEG QUALITY FOR IMAGE SAVING?!?!?

BECAUSE THE SDK DOESN'T ALLOW FOR SAVERS TO HAVE OPTIONS! ;)

Seriously though, lossy file formats are bad anyhow. And I'd love to options being available for savers. (which would be handled differently for saving out your render using F10 to saving out a single image from, say, the image viewer).

Cheers,
Mike

Exception
07-21-2006, 05:45 AM
Perhaps make a new tab in the options dialog where you set your preferences for each image filter once, and forget, cos PS drives me nuts with its 5 warnings and dialogs before saving...

starbase1
07-21-2006, 01:28 PM
Well, it's a reasonable uestion (why use JPG).

I'm up to over a terrabyte attached to this PC now, and god knows how many image sequences saved out to data DVD's, its still not enough!

If I am going to layer up, then I will use PNG. But for one layer if you are making video, I would argue that JPG is fine. The video is so massively compressed that it will totally swamp any errors from JPG. I would seriously doubt if anyone could tell the difference between a DVD sequence rendered from lossless images, and one rendered from high quality JPG's.

Oh, and another good reason to use them is for test runs, when you are not going for the final render.

And if quality setting is an interface issue then 2 options spring to mind:

1. Fix the interface.
2. Have three presets for high, medium, and low, as different menu options.

Nick

Phil
07-21-2006, 05:04 PM
I still think you might be better off rendering to uncompressed formats from LW and then using something like ImageMagick to batch convert into compressed format(s) of your choice. Free of cost and no irritating dialogs because you can script it. It's also available on multiple platforms.

At least this way, you don't end up re-rendering stuff if you chose the wrong compression setting or format (indexed vs. RGB) ;)

On the question of options for savers, though, I can't disagree with the suggestion either. I just wouldn't be one of the users :D

Lightwolf
07-21-2006, 05:32 PM
On the question of options for savers, though, I can't disagree with the suggestion either. I just wouldn't be one of the users :D
Well, it _would_ open up loads of other possibilities :D

Cheers,
Mike

Lightwolf
07-21-2006, 05:34 PM
But for one layer if you are making video, I would argue that JPG is fine.
That depends. I've seen the difference, but going out uncompressed. And if you render fields JPEG is a no-no as well (since JPEG compresses frames across scanlines... unless you have a field aware compressor which likely to save two half height images instead).

Cheers,
Mike

spec24
07-22-2006, 02:47 PM
Undo?????? ...........Holy [email protected]#[email protected]#$^%@#&%$$!.............What a concept:)

Can you actually do that in other programs?
Based on how quickly Layout's catching up to the rest of the 3D world, I think we'll see Undo incorporated throughout Lightwave in 5 years, or so:)

I don't think we'll ever see an undo that undoes anything but movement/rotation/scaling. It doesn't even undo keyframing. People have been complaining about this since I can remember. I started with 4.0 and started complaining there. I gave up as it was obvious newtek had the same view that Parametric Technologies (makers of Pro/Engineer) had with an undo concept: "Why do you need an undo when you can just get do what you wanted to do over again." The way Lightwave has been stitched together like a patchwork quilt I think is the reason we don't see one, and even with 9 I don't have happy feelings that much has changed as far as making some kind of unified program that sees all and knows all and can therefore save some kind of history. I won't hold my breath. Just keep hitting the save button.

KSTAR
07-22-2006, 03:09 PM
I don't think we'll ever see an undo that undoes anything but movement/rotation/scaling. It doesn't even undo keyframing. People have been complaining about this since I can remember. I started with 4.0 and started complaining there.

Im no engineer but my guess is, this is a core issue that was present even before 4.0 Remember LW9 is the first phase of a complete core rewrite so until most likely LW 10 comes out this will not be possible. So wait until LW10 comes out, if it doesn't have the undo functionality everyone wants then its time to complain.

spec24
07-23-2006, 12:12 PM
Im no engineer but my guess is, this is a core issue that was present even before 4.0 Remember LW9 is the first phase of a complete core rewrite so until most likely LW 10 comes out this will not be possible. So wait until LW10 comes out, if it doesn't have the undo functionality everyone wants then its time to complain.

Then it's time to complain? Why is that everyone's answer to things that are not working or should be in the software - "if it's not in the next release..." I heard that during 7, I heard that during 8, and now we're at 9.

KSTAR
07-23-2006, 12:18 PM
If it is a core issue, they never stated a rewrite of the core in the past, just upgrades to the software.

spec24
07-23-2006, 12:37 PM
If it is a core issue, they never stated a rewrite of the core in the past, just upgrades to the software.

I know Kstar. If it is. I hope you're right. But I really think if LW9 is in fact a rewrite of the core then I would have expected to see it, or at least heard mention of it, as LW9 came in to being. Could be wrong I suppose - I hope so.

freakmoomin
07-24-2006, 08:42 AM
Ive no idea of what they have wrote/re-wrote or whatever? but from the very first list of additions to the last one, the undo has been missing. They seem to be just glossing over the issue and pretending its not there as far as i can see........

I honestly thought that it would have been there and fully functional but i think that was just wishfull thinking on my part.

LW really needs to get up to speed with these basic tools or it really is dead. Whats the point of having complex rigging tools or cloth/hair dynamics if you cant even play with them and test things without fear of breaking something! Although i wouldnt mind have complex rigging and things anyway........ :)

Qslugs
07-24-2006, 12:24 PM
Hmmmm... I seem to remember claims of a rewrite back in the the 5-6 product cycle.



If it is a core issue, they never stated a rewrite of the core in the past, just upgrades to the software.

Earl
07-24-2006, 12:58 PM
Hmmmm... I seem to remember claims of a rewrite back in the the 5-6 product cycle.
That wasn't a very well planned rewrite. I also remember this. And the then-president of 3D products Brad Peebler specifically stated that (paraphrasing) "updates to LW can be made with much greater speed than before; competition should be worried" etc etc... obviously the design of that rewrite was serverely flawed.

That said, I think the new team lead by Jay Roth is doing it right this time around. At least it appears so... :newtek:

Phil
07-24-2006, 01:19 PM
That wasn't a very well planned rewrite. I also remember this. And the then-president of 3D products Brad Peebler specifically stated that (paraphrasing) "updates to LW can be made with much greater speed than before; competition should be worried" etc etc... obviously the design of that rewrite was serverely flawed.

That said, I think the new team lead by Jay Roth is doing it right this time around. At least it appears so... :newtek:

I'm not sure that is entirely fair, regarding 6.x and the rewrite. 6.x brought radiosity, caustics, proper volumetrics, UV support, weightmaps, the liked/loathed new interface, etc. I don't think the 6.0 rewrite was as extensive as could have been hoped for, but you are now nudging some 7 years since 6.0 shipped. For the time, though, that was a fairly impressive package (although it took far too long for the 5.5 to 6.0 upgrade to be released) - Maya was still horrendously expensive, as was almost every other package available.

These days it's different, particularly given the neglect that some areas of LW have endured and the much more intense competition. The new team must have broken out in a cold sweat when they realised how much work was to be done - I don't envy them the job of turning old and crusty code into shiny and powerful code.

9.0 is barely out of the gate - give them the credit they deserve for what has been done up to now and hang in there for the updates. I'm impressed with what has been done, but there's a lot of spit and polish still required (particular for tool unification in Modeler), in addition to the additional features that everyone is clamouring for. I have confidence that NT will deliver and the OB will give early indication so you can plan your moves appropriately, if needed.