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Jim Plant
07-16-2006, 07:51 AM
Ok folks, it's 6:30AM on SUNDAY MORNING...and I'm just getting on a plane in LA to head home from the (awesome) LightWave 9 launch party in Hollywood last night. Sitting in the terminal I had a chance to read the lengthy thread about FPrime and LightWave 9, and I wanted to say a few things that I HOPE will clarify things.

First off, NewTek has not lied about working closely with Worley during the development cycle of LightWave 9. Many members of the LightWave management team and the development team were (and are) in regular communication with Steve and his team. Let me make this point very clear: Steve has as much access to LightWave management and developers as he wants.

Regarding the LightWave 9 SDK, NewTek has made extensive additions, improvements, extensions, etc. the LightWave SDK...INCLUDING the node editor portion of the SDK. We've worked closely with Steve in many areas he as identified as important to him. This work is ongoing.

The most important point I want to make is that Steve is a 3rd party developer. He is not an employee of NewTek and we have no control over what he says or does...or WHEN he says and does things. I've known Steve for a long, long time. He was an advertiser in my first magazine in the early 90's...before Video Toaster User. He's his own man. He does his own thing...and it's a mighty cool thing he does.

NewTek has never made any promises about Worley and FPrime except that we were in ongoing communication with him and working close on the SDK with him. We've kept that promise...and we continue to keep it. We've never promised a new version of FPrime...it's obviously not within our purview to do so.

I can promise you that NewTek will continue to stay in communication with Steve. We'll continue to work him, and other 3rd party LW developers, on the LightWave SDK.

Jim Plant
President and CEO
NewTek, Inc.

T-Light
07-16-2006, 08:39 AM
I'm amazed you can type after an opening party, I'd have difficulty staggering through the airport in a reasonably straight line.

Thanks Jim :)

tonybliss
07-16-2006, 08:57 AM
ah boy jim ... to have to deal with the masses sometimes make you wonder why they put a 'm' in the word ....

Cheers!!

colkai
07-16-2006, 09:04 AM
Jim,
It's mighty big of you to put this up at time when you should only have to be thinking of a warm and comfy bed and some peace and quiet.

It's just a shame you even had to do so, I can only echo cgswami's thoughts. ;)

Try and get some rest, maybe even suggest Kurtis does the same? ;) :)

Cheers.

Anunnaki
07-16-2006, 10:02 AM
to have to deal with the masses sometimes make you wonder why they put a 'm' in the word ....

What a great quote!

Vincent D. Brumback

Bog
07-16-2006, 10:10 AM
Kurtis doesn't rest. He waits. ;)

Thanks for the info, Jim! Hopefully that'll calm a few nerves. Mine included...

Matt
07-16-2006, 10:26 AM
From the horses mouth! Thanks Jim, clearer now.

JeffRutan
07-16-2006, 10:33 AM
Thanks Jim! And thanks for the party! Now get some rest before SIGGRAPH! ;-)
-Jeff

Lizard Head
07-16-2006, 11:10 AM
If F Prime Served a purpose when LW needed a third party solution then it has done its job.

if in time LW moves on and becomes what it has needed to become for a long time and some third party solutions have to fall by the way side so be it.

given the choice of making a program compatible with a plugin OR making the program more of a robust solution for the future, I will take the latter.

LW first!! third party second!!

this doesnt mean F Prime will never "plugin" again,, it just means for now "hold your horses"....wait while LW develops through this cycle.

if one is all "pissey" about paying cash for F Prime,,and feel it is broken now then know the money spent was spent when you needed a solution, and the amount you spent for that solution was not expensive when weighed against its development cycle and the excellent stability you got with premium results.

KSTAR
07-16-2006, 11:54 AM
ah boy jim ... to have to deal with the masses sometimes make you wonder why they put a 'm' in the word ....

Cheers!!


How true how true! I love it!:agree:

geothefaust
07-16-2006, 11:55 AM
I'm glad you pointed this out Jim, because honestly, I didn't see what all the ruckus was. We'll see a new Fprime when Worley is ready, not sooner.

I hope this puts the whining to rest.

3DBob
07-16-2006, 12:29 PM
Thankyou for taking the time to write this Jim and congratulations to you all for realeasing a brilliant piece of software.

3DBob

kfiram
07-16-2006, 01:07 PM
Thanks for commenting, Jim, but I'm afraid clever wording won't get you out of this mess this time around. What you said is all nice and shiny, but it still doesn't answer any of the questions asked.

Worley states that he currently CAN'T access Nodes, and that it might happen sometime in the future.
This means the ball is on Newtek's court right now.

Newtek states that Nodal hooks are there in 9.0 (or at least that's one way of reading the very vague comments coming from you guys).
This means the ball is on Worley's court.

Those statements, pure and simple, contradict each other.
Either Newtek or Worley isn't telling us the whole truth.
The way I see it, there are 4 options (and I'll be gentle with my wording):

1. Newtek isn't willing to admit that Nodal hooks are NOT there. Instead, they use clever wording that push the subject away and put the blame on Worley. If this is true, it might mean that Newtek hasn't devoted enough attention to this matter, or that they simply failed to achieve this task. To put it simply: Newtek doesn't know if they'd ever be able to open the SDK enough for FPrime to see Nodes. They have general ideas, but they're not sure how to implement them.

2. Worley isn't telling it like it is. Nodal hooks are there, or almost there, and he needs to get his act together. Maybe he's too busy with another plugin to take the time needed for a Nodal FPrime.

3. Newtek did provide Nodal hooks, but in a way that doesn't satisfy Worley. Worley can theoretically access Nodal data, but it's too complicated or does not comply with the FPrime method of doing things.

4. Nodal hooks are not yet finished, but Newtek is way on their way to supplying them. It's just a matter of time, but it WILL happen.

So, Jim, which is it?

RedBull
07-16-2006, 01:40 PM
While i commend NT on commenting, i agree with Kifram
vague, non-specific marekting press, is not enough to cover this one.

Quote: Chuck Baker

"we also stated very clearly several times that we are in fact working very closely with Worley Labs to insure that anything he needs with regard to hooks for FPrime is going to be addressed, and we've provided a list of the SDK enhancements that indicate that we have in fact made the node system accessible, the new camera system accessible, and have increased access to volumetrics and other areas of the existing feature set. All of that has not just been ignored"

"we have in fact made the node system accessible, the new camera system accessible,"

This indeed seems to be the complete opposite of what Worley has described this now that the NDA has been completed.

Quote: WorleyLabs
"One of LW 9's new features is the Node Editor texturing system. Newtek has a design for a possible future extension to LightWave's SDK to allow FPrime to preview and render Node surface effects, but that system is not currently in LW 9"

So while i'm glad certain people liked the launch party, some people are waiting for the okay to enjoy the LW9 release and a party too.

An actual insight on what and when needs to happen to LW9SDK, should be given as previous statements have been shown to be misleading, if not factually incorrect. This is the only way to ensure trust and faith is restored,
after so many embarrssing SDK issues in the past. We all know we've had this discussion to many times now..


I can promise you that NewTek will continue to stay in communication with Steve. We'll continue to work him, and other 3rd party LW developers, on the LightWave SDK.

With all due respect, that was the exact same line we were told, that lead to this argument in the first place.
Staying in communication with Worley Labs? sounds like the complete opposite from this miss-communication.

Cageman
07-16-2006, 01:46 PM
So, Jim, which is it?

"We've worked closely with Steve in many areas he as identified as important to him. This work is ongoing."

The work is ongoing... what part did you not understand?

*Pete*
07-16-2006, 02:04 PM
kfiram, even if Newtek added the so called "node hooks" in the SDK, it doesnt mean that it is simple to make FPrime to use them.

also, it is not impossible that there is a halfready version of FPrime that works, with nodes and all, but that Worley is planning to add/adding at the moment more functions such as network rendering, or (i dont think so) support for Sasquatch.


Newtek can only speak for their own part (as, we added this/that), but only Worley can speak about what he is doint or has done.

kfiram
07-16-2006, 02:05 PM
The work is ongoing... what part did you not understand?

Well, just that this might mean anything from "We've already provided Nodal hooks and are now working with Worley to see how he can use them" to "We hoped we could easily implement Nodal hooks, but the mission proved to daunting, we've taken a step backward, are in the process of rethinking the issue and we might come up with something in the far future".

Again, there's one easy question that hadn't been answered:
Will Newtek supply Worley with the Nodal hooks he needs during the 9 cycle?

The answer could be Yes, No or We don't know - but there IS an answer, and it was NOT given by Jim.

kfiram
07-16-2006, 02:08 PM
kfiram, even if Newtek added the so called "node hooks" in the SDK, it doesnt mean that it is simple to make FPrime to use them.

also, it is not impossible that there is a halfready version of FPrime that works, with nodes and all, but that Worley is planning to add/adding at the moment more functions such as network rendering, or (i dont think so) support for Sasquatch.


Newtek can only speak for their own part (as, we added this/that), but only Worley can speak about what he is doint or has done.

I'm sorry, but this isn't what Worley said.
Worley firmly put the ball in Newtek's court. He clearly indicated that it's Newtek that needs to complete the work. His wording, contrary to that of Newtek, was very clear on the subject.

oDDity
07-16-2006, 02:10 PM
Heh, I like the way you're all name-dropping and on first name terms with him now that he's posted.
IN the other thread it seemed some of you wouldn't be happy until heads started to roll.
Anyway, thanks for the info Jimmy old buddy :thumbsup:

hrgiger
07-16-2006, 02:44 PM
I just want to know, is it possible that one day, there won't be any restrictions on what the SDK will allow access to for third party development? It doesn't have to be now, but I hope that newtek is working towards that end. Because it's then that i see Lightwave really flourishing to its full potential.

But for the time being, I'm very happy with the 9.0 release.

prospector
07-16-2006, 03:20 PM
Amazing

Newtek comes out and says exactly what is going on and people won't accept it.


Worley states that he currently CAN'T access Nodes, and that it might happen sometime in the future.


This could mean that Fprime code won't hook to LW code without re-writing FPrime, but the hooks are there.

but I like this part;

We've never promised a new version of FPrime...it's obviously not within our purview to do so.

This sure sounds like the ball is and always will be in Worleys court.

I've bought plug-ins for LW that no longer work but that does not mean I want Newtek to re-write code so all plug-ins from Amiga days to now still work.

3rd party developers are just that 3rd partys....they have to work with code that is released for LW.

So your plug-in doesn't work fully, some of mine work not at all...get over it

kfiram
07-16-2006, 03:54 PM
This could mean that Fprime code won't hook to LW code without re-writing FPrime, but the hooks are there.


Please read what Worley has to say on the subject:


Newtek has a design for a possible future extension to LightWave's SDK to allow FPrime to preview and render Node surface effects, but that system is not currently in LW 9.


I'm sorry, but unless you think Worley is lying, there are no hooks in place and Worley can't make FPrime work with Nodes.

So, Prospector... are you on the opinion that Worley is lying?

ejo3rd
07-16-2006, 04:05 PM
Hey kfiram,

Relax. Things will be ready when they are ready. Enjoy the new version and be glad they are working in the right direction.:lwicon:

Panikos
07-16-2006, 04:11 PM
FPrime was out ... everybody knows when.
The needs were specified.
Newtek was commited.
WorleyLabs are 5 persons, Newtek is a village.
Worley brought things to the edge, how many steps had Newtek done ?
Worley is lying ?
Worley is more reliable than Newtek, satisfies users better than Newtek and I chalenge anybody to say otherwise.

What was done so far ?
Someone tell us !
I got sick of Marketing promises.
2 years of developing confusion.

prospector
07-16-2006, 04:20 PM
I will take Newteks side and Worleys side :D


We've worked closely with Steve in many areas he as identified as important to him. This work is ongoing.


And

but that system is not currently in LW 9.


So maby 9.5 or 9.99999

9 is 9 untill it's LW10

kfiram
07-16-2006, 04:56 PM
So maby 9.5 or 9.99999


Fine by me.
I just want to hear it from the horse's mouth.
That's all I'm asking.

If Newtek comes out and says:
"As Worley already stated, LightWave's SDK currently doesn't allow access to Nodal. We're working on a solution, and that will definitely be available sometime during the 9.x cycle"...
I'll be pleased.

Not as pleased as I could be if it was already in 9.0 (as previously stated), but I can live with that. As long as it comes directly from Newtek.

Bog
07-16-2006, 05:12 PM
Kfiram is absolutely right.

If LightWave doesn't work under Windows Vista, I'm going to email Microsoft and demand that they change it until it does!

kfiram
07-16-2006, 05:19 PM
Kfiram is absolutely right.

If LightWave doesn't work under Windows Vista, I'm going to email Microsoft and demand that they change it until it does!

Oh, you're so funny...

FPrime works on 9.0, so your analogy is not valid. It just can't take advantage of 9.0's features, because of SDK limitations. and that IS Newtek's problem, not Worley's.

Anti-Distinctly
07-16-2006, 05:20 PM
Fine by me.
I just want to hear it from the horse's mouth.
That's all I'm asking.

If Newtek comes out and says:
"As Worley already stated, LightWave's SDK currently doesn't allow access to Nodal. We're working on a solution, and that will definitely be available sometime during the 9.x cycle"...[snip]

And I can see why they don't. If they say definately and there is an unforseen complication people here will tear them a new a**hole.

Dont get me wrong, to be honest I was expecting that as soon as Worley updated his site that it would say 'FPrime: new version, with nodes...' or whatever. In fact I was expecting it so much that I was quite shocked when I read it.
But, please just bear in mind that there is a great great deal that we dont know & NT are doing their darnest to make their software as good as possible. Do you think they're trying to make it badly? (that's rhetorical by the way)

I totally appriciate that you want a definite answer with all the ins and outs of their reasoning, but I'm sure their working on the situation. This had caused a big upset on this forum and they will have noticed. It's just frustrating for us not to know what's going on that's all & I'm sure they appriciate that too.
Right now we seem to be going in circles.

PS: Hi Bog, hope all is well in Reading :D

kfiram
07-16-2006, 05:33 PM
And I can see why they don't. If they say definately and there is an unforseen complication people here will tear them a new a**hole.

As I previously said, something along the lines of "We're trying to make it work but we can't promise anything" will also satisfy me. I'll settle for "Yes", "No", or "We don't know".

Currently Newtek is playing word games:
"NewTek has made extensive additions, improvements, extensions, etc."
"We've worked closely with Steve"
"we're in ongoing communication with him and working close on the SDK with him"
That sure sounds like they're saying something, but in fact they aren't.

We still don't have answers:
ARE NODES AVAILABLE THROUGH THE SDK IN 9.0?
IF NOT, ARE THEY PLANNED FOR 9.X?
CAN WE HAVE CONFIRMATION FOR WHAT WORLEY SAID ON HIS SITE?

As long as those questions aren't answered directly by Newtek, I'd have to go by Worley's words on the subject. Why would I need a THIRD PARTY DEVELOPER to comment on LightWave's SDK? Can't Newtek tell me directly???

Bog
07-16-2006, 05:55 PM
As long as those questions aren't answered directly by Newtek, I'd have to go by Worley's words on the subject. Why would I need a THIRD PARTY DEVELOPER to comment on LightWave's SDK? Can't Newtek tell me directly???

Because... and I hate to reiterate this yet again... FPrime is a 3rd party plugin. NewTek are not involved in it's development. NewTek are not writing it. NewTek are not responsible for it. It is not a NewTek product.

<Holly>They're all dead Dave
Dave dead all they're
They're Dave all dead
all Dave dead they're.</Holly>

Nobody gave NewTek money for FPrime. Newtek have no say in FPrime. NewTek are not being paid to write FPrime. It is up to Worley Labs to write FPrime.

Wade
07-16-2006, 06:44 PM
Worley is lying ?
Worley is more reliable than Newtek, satisfies users better than Newtek and I chalenge anybody to say otherwise.
I got sick of Marketing promises.
2 years of developing confusion.

Hey I bought fprime 03/17/04 with the understanding that it would pick up where LW left off, the bigger the scene the better - it would out pace LW. NOT SO - My scenes are too big for Fprime - they crash Fprime - boom gone no worky worky. Now LW will render the scenes fine. I was just hopeing the hype that Fprime would do so faster was true but it was not. Worley is aware of the limitations of FPRIME, but those limitations were not in anyway identified in his marketing such as it was. Simply put LW handels ram better or has less of a need of it to render big scenes natively. Where Fprime will not or can't as it needs more ram than windows can caugh up. -HOWEVER I did buy into the statments on worleys site that it would handel better the big scenes better......... So for me Worley is not more reliable than NT. I smilply think it was not tested before being release with super massive scenes, or worley would have mentioned the upper limit. For most people Fprime is a great addtion and Worley did a great thing for most all, but well it did me no good at all, and he has had near 300 bucks of mine for two years and I have not been able to use it as I was lead to believe I could have.

Such is life.
No big deal.

Now two years ago Steve did give me some cause for hope in this regaurd but it was two years ago- it all boils down to RAM usage that LW natively does better on big *** scenes, I have kept F-prime will use it one day I hope.

Hey folks remember to breath - NT, Worley, Wtools, Pictirx and many others are doing well provideing tools to the masses doing a great job most of the time. They are getting better lets let them work it out and not provoke a fight between them.

Worley found a need filled it for most, over stated the usfullness of his product to some degree. I wish him and his work all the best I think he will pull more rabits out of the hat so will others. Hey NT folk might ever pull a cow or two out of the hat so give it a rest. 9 is a great work and one in progress.

"I chalenge anybody to say otherwise" :) Well there you go.

BUT really its not a matter of whos does right by the LW community better than another I really think they are all doing a great job picking up steam and speed. The future looks really good, bright, fast, tasty, Dynomite, CAD2, Volumedic, Fprime, Pictirx cloning stuff - all amazing. And for me LW9 is a big inprovment all by its self. PEACE :) LOVE y :lwicon:

Wade

prospector
07-16-2006, 06:48 PM
It just can't take advantage of 9.0's features, because of SDK limitations. and that IS Newtek's problem, not Worley's.



And just WHY is this Newteks fault?
The SDK is correct exactly the way its coded, it IS a Newtek product.
I don't force Ford to put 426 Hemis' in the Mustang just because I have a 6 barrel carb setup left over from previous models.

for you younger folk..it's called a 6 pack, no relation to beer :D


It's nice that Newtek is working with Worley, but in the end, it's Worley that has to make the plug-in work correctly with LW and not the other way around.
I wouldn't want Newtek to do ANYTHING that messes up LW just for a 3rd party plug-in and if Newtek is developing a SuperViper that works with the current SDK then I don't want them to veer off track for that either.

Panikos
07-16-2006, 07:16 PM
Wade, for every bug of FPrime I can tell you 10 of LW, (extremely leniently)

You know how many hours of work I lost cause "Save all objects" saved corrupted files ?
It may be fixed by now, but I dont rely on it.

Cesar Montero
07-16-2006, 07:42 PM
It's nice that Newtek is working with Worley, but in the end, it's Worley that has to make the plug-in work correctly with LW and not the other way around.

I would work with those that make me earn more money and make my product more efective and eficient. FPrime surely does that above all other plugins. You see this cooperation in many other companies. They work together in order for both to earn more money and make their product better. Same happens with nature and evolution.


if Newtek is developing a SuperViper that works with the current SDK then I don't want them to veer off track for that either.

Are they?

Chuck
07-16-2006, 07:53 PM
The answers to anyone's questions about what we've provided in the way of Node Editor SDK access for v9 have been public for months. We posted the SDK to the public here:

http://www.newtek.com/lightwave/developer/LW90/lw9sdk-063006.zip

...on our Developers area, and have updated it regularly through the Open Beta cycle. It's not even sitting behind registration, but out in the public section of the website where anyone can pick it up, and review any part of it, including the documentation and examples on making nodes and talking to the nodal shaders to query them for data for whatever purpose you may need. Got a bent for programming and a little ambition? If so, then maybe you ought to give that Nodal SDK a go and see what it can really do. You don't have to settle for taking anybody's word for it. You can try it out for yourself.

archiea
07-16-2006, 08:07 PM
well, as a vocal member myself regarding this latest issue, I have concluded with a few opinions....

For starters.. I believe it was claimed by Newtek that the feature list for LW 9 could change at any time by release... So in that regard, as customers, Newtek has done much of what they promised.

Of what whas stated, and as a result, implied, from a customer's perspective, was that NT was working with worley specifically to have nodal support in Fprime. No real date was set, so the implication can be the 9.x lifecycle. What customers thought, considering Newtek's statement, Worley's reputation, and LW 9 extended betatesting, was that fprime would support nodal. I think its fair to say we had reason. Again, neither NT nor Worley were obligated, but we had reason to expect it.

Some other conclusions were that worley seemed only to be able to state his position on LW 9, nodal support and Fprime after the NDA was lifted. It would have been prefered by customers to have heard during the lenghty beta cycle that full fprime support was not likely. Again, neither NT nor worley were obligated to do so, but it would have been nice. It makes sense that if core changes to LW were happening, that updating Fprime to support what is essentially a moving target is not feasible. Its just that it would have been nice to have known. Instead we were encouraged that fprime would support nodal shaders in a FAQ that was later changed.

Then there is worley's statement that is a near 180 deg... that Fprime support is in Newtek's court, dependent of a possible SDK solution.

jim Plant, your recent statement defends Newtek's statement about working with worley, and it reiterates the position newtek has on third party. Kurtis' recent statement reduced our complaint as just a small minority of users:
"The majority of LightWave users do not participate in the forums. The majority of users who do are not participating in this thread. You can only accurately speak for the majority of users participating in this thread to say that they are concerned about the situation."

I mean, when Fprime was released, NT practically endorsed it at siggraph, showing it in their booth, having Steve talk about it. My point being that the impact of this plugin was evident right there. it doesn't take much imagination to understand how important it is to customers to have future LW upgrades supported by Fprime, especially if the FAQ for LW 9 once said that supporting nodal materials in Fprime was a goal fo the SDK for 9.0.

I just think that it would have been nice if NT just released a statement stating that they realized our expectations regarding LW9 and fprime, they understand our disappointment, but that nodal support could not be provided just yet. Instead, there is no ackowledgement of our expections, instead we are made to think that we were nuts to think so.

Changing of v9 FAQ statements + Worley NDA + loosey goosey statements thereafter =Plausable deniability..... Works for the govt!:D

kfiram
07-16-2006, 08:15 PM
The answers to anyone's questions about what we've provided in the way of Node Editor SDK access for v9 have been public for months. We posted the SDK to the public here:

http://www.newtek.com/lightwave/developer/LW90/lw9sdk-063006.zip

...on our Developers area, and have updated it regularly through the Open Beta cycle. It's not even sitting behind registration, but out in the public section of the website where anyone can pick it up, and review any part of it, including the documentation and examples on making nodes and talking to the nodal shaders to query them for data for whatever purpose you may need. Got a bent for programming and a little ambition? If so, then maybe you ought to give that Nodal SDK a go and see what it can really do. You don't have to settle for taking anybody's word for it. You can try it out for yourself.


Now you really got me confused.
I'm not a coder. I can't learn anything by looking at the SDK. Sorry...
I do realise that it's possible for third parties to write new nodes, but that doesn't mean it's of any use for Worley. "Writing" new nodes and "reading" node data are are two different things, as far as I can tell.

So my question remains:
Chuck (or any of the coders out there), as far as you understand - is it possible to write a third party plugin that "understands" LW9 nodes?
As far as you know, should it be possible for Worley to adapt FPrime to support nodes? From a coder's perspective, are you under the impression that FPrime should have no problem rendering nodes?

kfiram
07-16-2006, 08:25 PM
Because... and I hate to reiterate this yet again... FPrime is a 3rd party plugin. NewTek are not involved in it's development. NewTek are not writing it. NewTek are not responsible for it. It is not a NewTek product. It is up to Worley Labs to write FPrime.



And just WHY is this Newteks fault?
The SDK is correct exactly the way its coded, it IS a Newtek product.

Come on guys, we know FPrime is third party, but the SDK is all Newtek.
It's their responsibility to update the SDK.
They are the ones who promised it would work.
They are the ones who, up until a few days ago, said the SDK allows Worley to update FPrime.

It is not possible for Worley to update the SDK by himself.
Only Newtek can do it.
They said they'd do it ever since FPrime came out, two years ago.
And I still can't get a straight answer:
IS IT DONE YET?
WILL IT BE DONE DURING THE 9.X CYCLE?
HOW MANY MORE TIMES NEED I ASK ?????

dbigers
07-16-2006, 08:30 PM
It says in Chuck's reply that there are examples on making nodes and talking to the nodal shaders to query them for data for whatever purpose you may need.

To me that says that the functionality is there and it is possible for third party developers to access the nodal information.

But I am no programmer either, so I could be totally wrong as well. Happens often. ;)

Chuck
07-16-2006, 08:34 PM
Changing of v9 FAQ statements

Apologies, you are misremembering - the statement you are referring to was not in the FAQ, it was in the preliminary feature list, and it is also most emphatically present in the final feature list as well, at this link:

http://www.newtek.com/lightwave/highlights2.php#2

It's the last bullet in the Node Editor list:

Full SDK Support for third parties to create nodes (including shading models) and for third party renderers to interface with / query nodal shaders.

and I sent a correction that does not seem to have made it into the text:

Full SDK Support for third parties to create nodes (including shading models) and for third party renderers to interface with and query nodal shaders.

The original phrasing seems to have led some folks to believe that there is an entity that can be referred to as "query nodal shaders" or even "nodal query shaders." There isn't. There are nodal shaders. You can query them.

Kurtis meant nothing more nor less than that a forum thread in no way, shape or form constitutes an accurate poll and anyone making statistical claims for how the full community of users feels about an issue based on a thread needs to keep that in mind. And anyone who thinks that acknowledging this means that we discount the importance of listening to our users via the forums, mailing lists, newsgroups and other venues, please rest assured this is not the case. Such reactions are certainly an important measure of community feeling as well, but anecdotal, rather than rigorously statistical.

kfiram
07-16-2006, 08:38 PM
It says in Chuck's reply that there are examples on making nodes and talking to the nodal shaders to query them for data for whatever purpose you may need.

To me that says that the functionality is there and it is possible for third party developers to access the nodal information.

But I am no programmer either, so I could be totally wrong as well. Happens often. ;)

I have a theory, that a third party plugin can indeed query LW about nodes.
It will get an answer saying "this surface uses this and that nodes".
However, LW won't hand the plugin its shading model.
So it will tell FPrime: "This surface uses Kappa" and hand it all the necessary parameters, but it won't tell FPrime what Kappa is - which means that Worley has to recode any shader Newtek (or anybody else) develops.
Can any coder out there verify my theory?

Gui Lo
07-16-2006, 08:42 PM
Since I believe it is in all parties interests not to accuse each other I think they are all telling the truth.

NewTek has updated the SDK so that pugins can produce and communicate with nodal data.

Worley is also correct in saying that NewTek has a plan to implement further updates to the SDk so that they(Worley) can use it (in fprime) but it is not implemented yet.

Jim Plant is also correct in saying that NewTek has worked very closely with Worley and their work is "on-going".

In short then NewTek released general hooks in the SDK but Worley specified more focussed ones. NewTek development team agreed but they won't be in for LW9.0, but the general ones can be used. Worley decided to wait until the specific ones are done.

So they are all telling the truth.

kfiram
07-16-2006, 08:46 PM
Since I believe it is in all parties interests not to accuse each other I think they are all telling the truth.

NewTek has updated the SDK so that pugins can produce and communicate with nodal data.

Worley is also correct in saying that NewTek has a plan to implement further updates to the SDk so that they(Worley) can use it (in fprime) but it is not implemented yet.

Jim Plant is also correct in saying that NewTek has worked very closely with Worley and their work is "on-going".

In short then NewTek released general hooks in the SDK but Worley specified more focussed ones. NewTek development team agreed but they won't be in for LW9.0, but the general ones can be used. Worley decided to wait until the specific ones are done.

So they are all telling the truth.

Again, it's a nice theory - now all we need is confirmation from Newtek.
Newtek - please stop making us guess what's going on and just say what the state of affairs currently is.

Jim Plant
07-16-2006, 08:51 PM
Kfiram wrote...
We still don't have answers:
ARE NODES AVAILABLE THROUGH THE SDK IN 9.0?
IF NOT, ARE THEY PLANNED FOR 9.X?
CAN WE HAVE CONFIRMATION FOR WHAT WORLEY SAID ON HIS SITE?

================================================== ==

1. Yes
2. Yes (see below)
3. Not from NewTek

Kfiram,

I sense your frustration, and I'm guessing that may be because you believe you are asking straightforward questions and feel that you are not getting straightforward answers. Well, "clever wording" aside, I will tell you that I am answering your questions as straightforward as I possibly can. The problem is that you are asking me/NewTek to answer questions about Worley Lab's plans for FPrime that we are not privy to. You are asking me to speculate on what support or new features that Worley Labs might, or might not, offer in some future version of FPrime. I'm sorry but I just cannot do that.

As Chuck has mentioned previously in this thread, the SDK support we've added for the LightWave 9 nodal system is documented public information. My understanding is that 3rd party developers are already working with it. Will we do more in the 9.x cycle? Sure, and also in the 10, 11, 12 cycles...it never ends. As for what Worley can or can't do with the current version of the SDK...that is not for me/NewTek to say. His track record for doing cool tech over the years is pretty **** amazing, so my hopes are high.


-Jim

Jim Plant
07-16-2006, 08:55 PM
What?! I've been censored by my own forum software...

Heads will roll!

:jester:

-Jim

Gui Lo
07-16-2006, 09:01 PM
kfiram,
I think NewTek may be under an NDA themselves and cannot divulge any information that suggests that a further or enhanced version of another companies product that is in development. Jim Plant said that work in "on-going" and that suggests to me that it is as detailed as he is able to go. Also he stated that it is up to other companies to talk about their own products. NewTek has stated that general hooks are in place but I think it is Worley Labs who need to tell us about any hooks that are specific to fprime.

Chuck pointed us all to the general hooks but you want to know about the fprime specific ones, right?
Or maybe you need to know now why Worley is not or cannot use the general hooks NewTek has provided.

Either way I think NewTek is bound to a contract of who owns what and who talks about what and when.

Gui Lo

Cesar Montero
07-16-2006, 09:03 PM
Jim:

So, this is a lie?:

"Newtek has a design for a possible future extension to LightWave's SDK to allow FPrime to preview and render Node surface effects, but that system is not currently in LW 9" (www.worley.com, 17/07/06)


I'm confused on what is true, and what is not now.
Or maybe I'm not to the level of understanding the technological implications of what is said.
Just about to leave the conversation and wish everyone good luck

kfiram
07-16-2006, 09:04 PM
1. Yes
2. Yes (see below)
3. Not from NewTek



Thanks for answering, Jim. I really appreciate it. :bowdown:
However, call me thick, call me stupid, call me tomorrow and we'll discuss this by phone... :neener:
I still don't understand:
As far as you can comment or as far as you understand: is the work done in 9.0 sufficient for Worley (which puts the ball on his court) or does Worley consider this a half-baked solution and is waiting for further development from Newtek?
Since you're in such close relations with the guy (as you yourself stated), you must know the answer...

Earl
07-16-2006, 09:28 PM
I think NewTek has been incredibly generous with the information throughout the entire v9 cycle (both just before and up until now and especially in the Open Beta). I really hope they continue this. Thanks Jim, Chuck, and Kurtis for the clear and informative answers on this particular subject. I don't see how anyone can believe you are lying about anything, given all that you've said and demonstrated.

I do have one complaint, though. Truly...this is important: stop working on the weekend!! If you continue like this you'll get burnt out and be unable to deliver v10 by SIGGRAPH '06. :twak:

RedBull
07-16-2006, 09:37 PM
What's obvious from this is NT and Worley labs can't even seem to agree on who's done what, when and where.... And this constitutes "working closely with"?

Think about it NT!

LW9 should be being praised for it's new features and abilities at this current time. Instead a LOT of LW9 users are up in arms angry with both Newtek and Worleylabs.. We can keep playing pass the buck, or work towards a solution.

I ask you is this the best Newtek can handle their close working relationships with 3rd parties....? Maybe that's why theres a huge decline of them.

Regardless of who's wrong and right, the problem is NT's userbase is upset
and confused about NT's direction and abilities with new features and third party devleopers. And this is soley NT's responsibility...

Perhaps NT should actually work "closely" with Worley and have both companies make ammended posts on their websites, with some sort of resolution that sorts out the constant stupidity these oversights have caused.

WORK with your customers to get a public outcome that all three parties
can be happy with, sooner rather than later....

Because worse than the contradictory statements on both sides,
is the continual push not for an outcome, but to keep this problem a "He said, She Said" argument.

Now that Chuck and Jim claim this is Worley's problem, we are all going to go ask Worley..... If it comes back that this is NT problem you can imagine the flak that will follow as a result.

People obviously having different opinions of what working together and closely mean IMO.

manholoz
07-16-2006, 09:45 PM
kfiram,
I think NewTek may be under an NDA themselves and cannot divulge any information that suggests that a further or enhanced version of another companies product that is in development. Jim Plant said that work in "on-going" and that suggests to me that it is as detailed as he is able to go. Also he stated that it is up to other companies to talk about their own products. NewTek has stated that general hooks are in place but I think it is Worley Labs who need to tell us about any hooks that are specific to fprime.

Chuck pointed us all to the general hooks but you want to know about the fprime specific ones, right?
Or maybe you need to know now why Worley is not or cannot use the general hooks NewTek has provided.

Either way I think NewTek is bound to a contract of who owns what and who talks about what and when.

Gui Lo


I think in the NDA lies all the problem. I am no programmer, but I think that the specifics on why/who/when on Fprime & nodals come down to that. Anyway, I am still learning how to use Lightwave, so here's a toast to Worley and :newtek: so they keep on working together, so a node compatible Fprime is ready when I take of my newbie hat! :beerchug:

mokba
07-16-2006, 09:54 PM
Jim & Chuck, I guess you guys never get a break. People just seem to have to ***** about something. Personally I'm enjoying release of V9. My FPrime works as well as it ever did in 8.5 and under the exact same circumstances. When Steve gets around to his next update I'll enjoy that too.

Celshader
07-16-2006, 10:04 PM
I ask you is this the best Newtek can handle their close working relationships with 3rd parties....? Maybe that's why theres a huge decline of them.

VoluMedic (http://www.volumedic.com/), LWCAD2.0 (http://wtools3d.com/), IFW2 Nodes (http://www.shaders.co.uk/ifw2_nodal/gallery/index.htm) and Dynamite 1.1 (http://www.cantarcan.com/v11/html/main.html) looks like healthy third-party development to me. I look forwards to seeing what Worley cooks up with the LightWave 9.0 SDK.

Verlon
07-16-2006, 10:14 PM
1) for every feature you can name in fprime, I can name at least 100 in Lightwave. I think one product might be a bit easier to create than the other.

2) The SDK, as noted, is public. If you or I cannot understand it, that is not Newtek's or Worley's problem.

3) There are those who seem to want Newtek to call Worley a Liar, or Worley to call Newtek a liar over this issue. Is that supposed t foster a god working relationship? Would Newtek breaking some NDA over Worley's future plans help them work better together? Remember that Fprime isn't the only game in town for preview renderers in Lightwave. Worley is rightfully concerned about his trade secrets.

4) Newtek has made a few statements on this. Why arent you bugging Worley Labs to state more specifically what the problem is? Why not ask him exactly what he needs (and didn't get) in the SDK to make FPrime work? You want to say its all newtek's fault based on how you perceive their past, but, as you say, "that's a nice theory..."

And STILL...the product is not a week old yet.

Personally, I could do with a bit more communication from Worley Labs. ONE update this entire year....but he has always been a bit tight-lipped (though he seemed to have more to say in the Joe Alter vs. Worley Labs hair plugin wars)

Wade
07-16-2006, 10:36 PM
Wade, for every bug of FPrime I can tell you 10 of LW, (extremely leniently)

You know how many hours of work I lost cause "Save all objects" saved corrupted files ?
It may be fixed by now, but I dont rely on it.


Well LW is what 10x -40x the size of Fprime so 10x the bugs ain't bad - but Fprime is totally unusable for what I needed it for, because it needs more RAM than I can use with windows XP pro. Yet I am greatfull that it is such a good product for others, and has brought some good attention to LW.

The Worley group has my respect and money, but I am one of the few that can not use the product f-prime at this time for the end that I had bought it - THAT my soon change as in the last two years much has changed. - I am optomistic very much so on all fronts. :thumbsup:

Just felt a bit of a challenge in your challenge one I could rise to. :)

Go Worley
Go Newtek
Go Panikos
keep up the good work.

Wade

Yep I know my spelling, grammar leave one wondering - yet I can draw and a pretty picture. :hey:

Cesar Montero
07-16-2006, 10:43 PM
Both statements to my eye contradict each other in the part I quoted. So I would like to know what is going on with that. :help:

Jim says the SDK is there, and the nodal system is there, open for developers. Then Worley at their page says it is still not there. I will like to know why.8~

If there is an NDA or similar, just let us know that you cannot talk about the matter right now. Or something that we can say "ah, that is the reason there is a discrepancy in what they say".:D

RedBull
07-16-2006, 10:48 PM
VoluMedic (http://www.volumedic.com/), LWCAD2.0 (http://wtools3d.com/), IFW2 Nodes (http://www.shaders.co.uk/ifw2_nodal/gallery/index.htm) and Dynamite 1.1 (http://www.cantarcan.com/v11/html/main.html) looks like healthy third-party development to me. I look forwards to seeing what Worley cooks up with the LightWave 9.0 SDK.

I'm glad yourself and many newbies are happy Celshader....
Obviously there are a lot of people who are posting in this thread are not.

WOW you mean Dynamite1.1 will work with FPrime?
Wait NO thats a volumetric class plugin! LW's SDK won't allow Volumetrics plugins to communicate with other LW plugins!! DOH!

Wow i already have IFW2 Textures.... You know what my only problem with it was? FPrime can't read LW shaders due to LW core shortcomings.

IFW2 Nodal you say, well blow me down a New Nodal shading system,
and wait........ Still no way to improve the only thing that was wrong in the first place.... NO Fprime IFW2 Nodal...... HD-instance still won't work with it.

What about Match Goal Orientation not passing on it's rotation value to anything else ? Wow that's an innovative way of SDK improvements.

I mean Taiki working with HD Instance, working with FPrime, working with Pixie Dust...... This would of shown that LW is serious with words like Parrallel changeover... This would be an SDK core improvement. This would make LW into a program that can still compete with the industries best....

I can make 1 plugin that makes a teapot in Modeler......
Unfortunately i've been able to do that in LW since forever...
But i can't make a relief mapping /subpixel displacement shader that other plugins like HD Instance or Fprime can handle...

Why do i buy plugins if they will never talk to each other.....

Essentially this is building a 3 lane highway for my Ferrari and closing 2 lanes, and posting a 20MPH speed limit on the one lane in use.

If people such as yourself and Verlon etc, are happy with LW9 and it's support of third parties, more power to you... But are others not allowed to have issues with LW's SDK and third party support?

Is there a point to having a hundred people complain about something, only
to have 20 mostly newbies try and tell others not to have an opinion unless it's the same as theres? This thread is not "If your happy with NT and Worley" clap your hands. Feel free to start that thread though....

I understand that for every educated long time LW users with some issues,
there will be 3 very happy LW customers who are happy... Again they likely don't need to add their opinion here.

It's not about opinions or ego's, it's about issues, and their best resolution.

PS: I'm sorry to bring SDK and Plugin examples into this thread.
As this is not a SDK third party discussion.

Anyway: I'm done on this discussion, bickering.
Just think it's a really sad way to start a LW9 launch..

Verlon
07-16-2006, 11:54 PM
Allowed to have issues with the SDK and all? Certainly.

Ranting that Newtek lied to you for months (years, retroactively wrecked your childhood....whatever) based on one line in a brief announcement by a third party that has room for more than one interpretation before the release is a week old? Well that will get a few of us asking you to calm down and wait a little bit.

No one said Dynamite would work with FPrime. They said it was healthy 3rd party support. Fprime is a plugin for Lightwave, not the other way around. Dynamite works with Lightwave. I grant it would be nice if it worked with Fprime, but it doesn't right now.

IFW2 Nodal, as you have no doubt noticed, is a fine plugin for Lightwave (again, not a plugin for FPrime). It would be nice if they were talking, but they aren't yet.

In point of fact, when we do start the "Great Job Newtek" threads, there are some number of posters who want to voice their complaints there. Its a free country and a lightly moderated message board full of opinionated 3D artists.

Why is it that everyone who disagrees is "mostly newbs" if ego has nothing to do with it. Many of these people have been around a long time...like since the Dongle was a 4 input video switcher. Their "join date," like yours, doesn't automatically reflect their acquisition of Lightwave and /or entry into 3D.

So, in short...yes, you can be unhappy that FPrime doesn't instantly render everything that Lightwave does. You can say how you would like for it to do so (and I'll be right there with you). If you choose to "throw down the gauntlet," however, don't be so shocked when someone picks it up.

No one is telling you to love it and deal. Just asking to wait a little bit to see what develops.

gristle
07-17-2006, 12:06 AM
ah boy jim ... to have to deal with the masses sometimes make you wonder why they put a 'm' in the word ....

Cheers!!

isnt it spelt marses?

mikala
07-17-2006, 12:12 AM
Sorry too busy to comment.... I'm busy Using the software....:)

inquisitive
07-17-2006, 12:50 AM
Come on guys, we know FPrime is third party, but the SDK is all Newtek.
It's their responsibility to update the SDK.
They are the ones who promised it would work.
They are the ones who, up until a few days ago, said the SDK allows Worley to update FPrime.

It is not possible for Worley to update the SDK by himself.
Only Newtek can do it.
They said they'd do it ever since FPrime came out, two years ago.
And I still can't get a straight answer:
IS IT DONE YET?
WILL IT BE DONE DURING THE 9.X CYCLE?
HOW MANY MORE TIMES NEED I ASK ?????

geez man be civilized

RedBull
07-17-2006, 01:02 AM
Allowed to have issues with the SDK and all? Certainly.

Thankyou i know!


Ranting that Newtek lied to you for months (years, retroactively wrecked your childhood....whatever) based on one line in a brief announcement by a third party that has room for more than one interpretation before the release is a week old? Well that will get a few of us asking you to calm down and wait a little bit.

Where did i say NT lied to me for months Verlon, again if you want to start an argument with other LW users about their right to hold opinions, at least try not to make incorrect accusations based on words i never said.

Conversely, Ranting that everything is fine and thanking NT for clarifying the situation, when they have done anything but is useless.


No one said Dynamite would work with FPrime. They said it was healthy 3rd party support. Fprime is a plugin for Lightwave, not the other way around. Dynamite works with Lightwave. I grant it would be nice if it worked with Fprime, but it doesn't right now.

This is LW's limitation not FPrime, it's not about FPrime....
It's about LW's architecture being so old and rigid, and designed to do a lot less things than we need it to in 2006.

The whole reason for Luxologies departue was due to the Dev team acknowledging LW needed a ground up rebuild to allow plugins to communicate with each other.... The former dev team were SMART enough to listen to the cries of users and developers like Joe Altar and Worley Labs.

Parrallel Changeover is meant to be attempting to build a new architecture
while at the same time keeping the old one working.

LW9 didn't even make Mesh Editing into Modeler (despite claiming it has on the LW9 press release)

Talking to ex developers, i was told that LW will NEVER share surface shaders with other parts of LW, they will never be able to do this without a severe core change to LW. THIS is LW's old age starting to show.

What it shows is that despite NT assurring many of use that the SDK is important aspect of LW and increasing it's capabilities that virtually none of these shortcoming are being addressed.


IFW2 Nodal, as you have no doubt noticed, is a fine plugin for Lightwave (again, not a plugin for FPrime). It would be nice if they were talking, but they aren't yet.

Despite NT's assurances that they will and are already able to. :)

Again i bought LW, HDInstance Meshpaint and FPrime..... Now all expensive
plugins for LW..... Luxology Modo has Meshpaint, Iview and Instancing
these ALL work with every other part of the program..... This means the power is not being limited by the core and SDK.... This is what i need to take my work to the next level.....

Maya, XSI and now Modo have all acknowledged that an extensible core
with a C++ SDK is the way things have to be done in 2006.

Hence the reason why LW marketshare has dropped and XSI, Maya have increased. NT have not been looking at whats' important.....


In point of fact, when we do start the "Great Job Newtek" threads, there are some number of posters who want to voice their complaints there. Its a free country and a lightly moderated message board full of opinionated 3D artists.

So posting your "NT rocks" posts to people who are having problems,
is a good proactive experience that is useful and productive in these forums?


Why is it that everyone who disagrees is "mostly newbs" if ego has nothing to do with it. Many of these people have been around a long time...like since the Dongle was a 4 input video switcher. Their "join date," like yours, doesn't automatically reflect their acquisition of Lightwave and /or entry into 3D.

That factually incorrect, If you had been here as long as myself, you would be much more aware of the troubles that LW needs to repair and improve
if it wants companies like the Embassy, Framestore and Digital Domain to use LW on future projects. And when studios move software, so does the average joe. It's obvious that most people on this thread have no idea of the actual problems that people such as myself and Panikos have been here long enough to discover.. I can show lengthy posts between myself (former Alias)
and Chuck Baker had on the old NT forums regarding to LW SDK improvements that i'm still waiting for. Go and ask Graham from Happy Digital how many years he's been waiting for SDK improvements... Go and ask Joe Altar why S&H is no longer supported by NT or LW, and how his constant SDK requests were ignored for years. How about Evasion3D's move to make only Maya and XSI plugins from now on!!! How many plugins have you tried to develop in the last few years for LW Verlon?

Also i mention Newbies because it's just plain obvious how enthusiastic newbies are, and so they should be with a great tool with LW.
I don't want to hamper their desire to use LW, that's why NT should be fixing this argument ASAP. So we don't have LW users who should be unitied arguing on subjects (like this one) that won't improve anything.


So, in short...yes, you can be unhappy that FPrime doesn't instantly render everything that Lightwave does. You can say how you would like for it to do so (and I'll be right there with you). If you choose to "throw down the gauntlet," however, don't be so shocked when someone picks it up.

Feel free to pick my points apart, but my beef is with NT not being as forthcoming and quick to resolve this problems, having to make useless arguments with other users that are side issues, does not help yourself, NT, Worley or the problems we are all facing. If your happy to wait for NT
to tell you one day it will be fixed... Fine.... again good for you....
But that doesn't help myself...

It's ironic that LW has such little respect for their third party developers, LWCAD was bundled with LW9, Vue as well.... Nodal, Vodka, APS, Pixiedust, R2, are all third party products, and how quickly NT forget just how vital the 3rd pary scene is to LW users. and NT themselves. FPrime saved LW over the LW8.x series.

To me it's got nothing to do with Nodal, Worley or FPrime...
It's got everything to do with the constant marketing spin we've been fed on the SDK subject for many years. And still nothing to make us feel like LW is moving in the right direction.....


No one is telling you to love it and deal. Just asking to wait a little bit to see what develops.

I'm still waiting for an OpenEXR saver and Public HUB API access that was promised in LW8.x Why should i beleive people who fail so often in delivering what they claim they can?

I've been fed that exact same line for many years..... Why should i keep listening to the PR spin NT gives? It's about results not promises...
I have a lot of money and time invested in LW, this is not a toy it's my living.
If NT can't manage to run their business up to the standards of other competitors, perhaps they should just say "look SDK improvements are not planned, we doubt anything major can be achieved in this regards"

Because frankly that i would believe!
This way i could migrate most of my work onto other tools, rather than wait for LW10 to be released with this same discussion next time around.
It's having the respect for your own users to keep them informed, rather than trying to pass the buck.

Just so you know... With Lightwave 8.3... I was told the volumetrics enhancements were made to LW for Fprime....

After some poking around in the SDK, i could not find the included improvements...... After a large public fight with Chuck (we are friends again now) NT agreed they had made a mistake and released a LW8.3 with the included volumetrics Worley needed...... I've learnt never to trust what i'm told, only to believe in what i see..... So this is hardly my first time in this same situation.

I keep being told by Jay and Chuck and other that LW is really serious this time..... But despite me wanting to believe them, i really no longer do.

Exception
07-17-2006, 01:37 AM
Panikos, Redbull, Kfiram...

I'm with you guys all the way.
They're just not going to tell us.
I would take this any way you think it should be taken.
And let it go now, they're really not going to tell us. Don't you have enough of the marketing beating around the bush and empry promises talk? It's not going to happen.

cagey5
07-17-2006, 01:49 AM
I presume RedBull that you are also venting your spleen to Worley as well. Not that I think he deserves it necessarily, but he does actually code the software you're not happy with. I have found Newtek to be incredibly open with their communication throughout this whole development cycle. They've made tremendous improvements to LW in it's features, functionality and speed.
They have also answered questions put to them in this thread in a straightforward manner. I'm a user of fPrime too and yes I've been frustrated that I can't see shaders with it and I was hoping a nodes version would be released shortly after the LW9 launch, but because of a single line in Worley statement you seem to want to whip up the masses into a lynch mob pounding on Newteks doors. [hyperbole acknowledged ;)]
I don't think people are as 'angry' as you claim, and perhaps if others were as communicative as Newtek even those would have less reason to feel angry. As is usual in these cases communication is at the root of it. Can I suggest you get input from both sides if that's possible to get a more balanced view.

bsales
07-17-2006, 01:54 AM
Here's what I believe...

- Neither Newtek or Worley are lying to us
- All companies are reluctant to make claims about future development - especially regarding other company's plans or products
- There are nodal hooks in the SDK - but they are being expanded
- Worley is hard at work on super-cool products (FPrime may not even be at the top of their list)
- FPrime owners will almost definitely end up with a version that works with nodes or a killer product that replaces FPrime
- Whatever Worley eventually develops will make the patient ones among us happy, that's why we all respect Worley Labs
- If we get too worked up speculating and griping, it will raise our blood pressure and we will die young

Take Care

Lightwolf
07-17-2006, 02:07 AM
Let me just add my 2 cents...

Looking a the SDK the following seems possible:

You can find out which nodal graph is hooked up to which surface
You can find out how many inputs the master node has (in this case the surface node) - these can also be seen as the nodal shading output nodes.
You can find out their names
You can evaluate them, passing on custom raytracing routines etc...

(the relevant SDK headers are lwsurface.h to get the NodeEditorID, lwnodeeditor.h to get the NodeInputIDs of that node graph, and lwnodes.h/LWNodeInputFuncs to query the node values using "evaluate")

So, it seems that the hooks are there. If they practically work as expected, or if there are other caveats that Steve Worley has bumped against is hard to tell without actually writing a plugin that uses them.
It does happen that one thinks all the hooks are there before coding, only to find that something quite essential is missing during the actual coding phase (unless you really think everything through extremely well).

Cheers,
Mike

Edit: One issue could be that it generally works as expected, but crashes when a shading graph is evaluated as the user is editing it (i.e. adding, removing, connecting nodes, not changing any of the node values themselves). This wouldn't show up in the SDK (and wouldn't need to), but could prohibit FPrime from working in a safe way. Just speculating here though.
Contrary to how FPrime evaluates normal surface attributes, it will have to evaluate the node graph more often during rendering, increasing the risk of crashes due to state changes of the nodes.

RedBull
07-17-2006, 02:19 AM
Panikos, Redbull, Kfiram...

I'm with you guys all the way.
They're just not going to tell us.
I would take this any way you think it should be taken.
And let it go now, they're really not going to tell us. Don't you have enough of the marketing beating around the bush and empry promises talk? It's not going to happen.

I know, it's a shame some of us are so passionate about Lightwave....
It's been a part of my everyday life for well over 10 years...
Despite me adding newer tools more recently, these new tools just show me how much Lightwave had gotten so right from the start.
But yes Exception, i guess if the people are more passionate than the makers, there isn't much point...

Anyway my wireless keyboard just can't keep up with 180wpm posts....
So i'll give it a rest..... ) (i think i already said that.... Meh!)

PS: Mike Thanks for the input, interesting indeed. And the most useful, informitive post out of any in this thread.
Maybe Jarno or Peter J, could comment on a more detailed explanation.

Cagey: This is the quote from Worley:
"So there won't be an FPrime update that supports the Node Editor until the SDK is updated."

Just for the record, in this situation, there is no bad feeling on LW9, NT or Worley...
I would just like to see less of these problems, and faster resolutions to them, when they arrise!
To me it's a pretty easy thing to accomplish, and one that's best for all concerned... (bloody logic)

digital verve
07-17-2006, 02:21 AM
Looks to me that since 3rd parties do have access to Nodal, then Newtek are delivering on their promises. Obviously, from Worleys statement, some extra functions need to be added to the SDK for him to have the extra controls he wants for the new FPrime. The fact that Newtek have already put hooks in, shows they are developing and progressing in this area.

As I understand it from Newtek, 9.0 is the first of many updates in bringing major changes to the LW system. It is PLAIN TO SEE by everybody that they doing this. This seems very clear to me. Some people just seem to enjoy sinking their fangs in for the sake of it. If at the end of the LW 9 update cycle, Newtek have not delivered on what they have previously specified then fair game.

I don't think anyone including Newtek disagree on some the main points made by users such as RedBull. It just can't be packed in on the 1st serious release for a long time. It will probably upto a further 12 months of hard work for Newtek to get LW to meet their specified goals.

User speculation. Isn't it fun. Everyone has an opinion and some like to shout from the rooftops as if their opinion is gospel. Mind you, call me twisted, but I find some of the replies in these sort of threads more interesting and entertaining than a lot of Soap Operas on telly. Like 3D geeks meet Eastenders (a brit soap). :) So errr carry on (got my popcorn).

Anti-Distinctly
07-17-2006, 02:27 AM
[snip]...Like 3D geeks meet Eastenders (a brit soap). :) So errr carry on (got my popcorn).

Classic Eastenders solution to any problem: "I'll put the kettle on..."

Lightwolf: Thank goodness for you. Too much speculation going on here (including from me probably) about something that the majority of us aren't qualified to assess.

kfiram
07-17-2006, 02:30 AM
geez man be civilized

I apologize if I was being rood.
Running both a studio and a college that both rely heavily on LW, a successful release is almost a matter of (professional) life and death for me.
It's a touchy subject...

Besides, these aren't easy times for us here is Israel. We're at war, dozens of missiles are falling all over the place... can you blame me for being a bit edgy...?

Anti-Distinctly
07-17-2006, 02:33 AM
[snip]...Besides, these aren't easy times for us here is Israel. We're at war, dozens of missiles are falling all over the place... can you blame me for being a bit edgy...?

Yeah. Can't really say much about that apart from it sucks. Hard.
For what it's worth, you have my sympathies.

Pavlov
07-17-2006, 03:01 AM
i'd like to add these:

- Fprime is NOT a 3rd patry product like many other. When nothing happened on LW's front, Fprime allowed us to stay competitive and keep on with LW, and the same goes now.
Somehow 9's engine went slower through RCs, and even in the faster beta GI was - plain said - NOT usable for production, and i know this well doing this 10-12 hour a day from many years.
Fprime is work, life and gain for many of us: my hope is NT doesnt act as if it was a "plugin", because it fills a major LW's hole and it's an essential LW's part for many users.

- I'm sure both Worley and NT understood people CARE about Fprime and its full compatibility. LW's engine does not offer enough speed so Fprime is still - like before - a primary reason to stay with LW.
Personally i dont care about who lies (if soeone does), but i'm sure both parts will do the best to do something that users have proven not to "like", but to "need" for their daywork.
Just give a look to NT forums: fprime issues are by far larger than wellcomes to 9, so make your own conclusions.

bye
Paolo

Panikos
07-17-2006, 03:31 AM
Its NOT only Nodal support !

What about Volumetric Lights ?
What about Previewing HV ?
What about Lens Flare ?
What about LWSN that allows FPrime to render ?
What about Shaders support ?

The last two years, what Newtek did to allow FPrime preview/render these ?

As pooby wrote, we will be using LW8.5 with FPrime because LW9 new features are of less importance.

NEWTEK, WAKE UP and realize what FPrime means to people !

Otherwise rename to " O L D T E K "

mouse_art
07-17-2006, 03:37 AM
If Fprime is your life, how worked you before without Fprime?

I'm a Fprime user too but this crying or bitching(call it whatever you like) is sensless and does not help anyone...





Its NOT only Nodal support !

What about Volumetric Lights ?
What about Previewing HV ?
What about Lens Flare ?
What about LWSN that allows FPrime to render ?
What about Shaders support ?

The last two year, what Newtek did to allow FPrime preview/render these ?

As pooby wrote, we will be using LW8.5 with FPrime because LW9 new features are of less importance.

NEWTEK, WAKE UP and realize what FPrime means to people !

Otherwise rename to " O L D T E K "


Aha stability ist not important...that's a funny statement don't you think?
Such posts make me laughing, because you can use Fprime the same way in 9 as 8.5 with some nice additions(final render(, yeah i use fprime too for preview but only for preview...because its a previewer...there are no network render support so....blablablabla

Sorry how old are you? Do you know the difference between discussion and disputation?

Verlon
07-17-2006, 03:39 AM
Curses...I made a lengthy post that explained everything and would've had redbull singing the praises of newtek and drinking decaff.....but it seems to have not made it.

Ah well.

(and just for the record...I HAVE been around as long as you redbull...I have been around since the beginning. I first played with Lightwave when it was on the original Toaster in an Amiga 2000, and that after playing with Videoscape 3D)

Panikos
07-17-2006, 03:42 AM
If we would looking in the past, we would have had a pair of eyes behind.
Past is gone, Bye-Bye, no return.

Where was LW some years ago and where is now ?
I can list several artists of unparalleled skills that moved to a different app.
Get yourself a Box of LW6 and look at its sides. Where are these people ?

I am using other apps too, but I like LW too.
Its not me that is holding it.

Honestly, since FPrime my farm is off unless I need Sasquatch, Volumetric Lights etc :(

I am not expecting all my desires fullfilled, however give me something, two years expectations smash onto a Release FAQ.

colkai
07-17-2006, 03:45 AM
Lightwolf: Thank goodness for you. Too much speculation going on here (including from me probably) about something that the majority of us aren't qualified to assess.
Agreed,
A response from someone who has looked at the SDK and understands coding, couldn't be clearer.

As Digital Verve has said, people, really, we are at 9.0 and any of you, (looks around the room), any, who have participated in the beta should know how much work Newtek are putting in. They have, ad infinitum, stated that development will continue apace throughout the LW9 cycle.

Now, if some of you want to spit your dummies and stamp and rant that you want all your toys now or else, by all means, do so, just do not expect anyone to give you any credence.
(The old - do THIS NOW or I'm off / LW is dead / my Job is under threat .. <<delete as preferred>>)

Like many here, I would like FPrime to have the new features, by that same token, I would of liked shaders to be included FPrime already.
The fact they haven't has not stopped me using it, or LW, the same holds true for Nodes and the current incarnation of FPrime.

I wonder why there is so much vitriol aimed at Newtek, I really do, nine times out of ten, the venom and accusations are often hid behind "caring for LW / Newtek". Darn, if this is your idea of caring, I'd hate to see you when you're not! :p

Cageman
07-17-2006, 03:56 AM
You know how many hours of work I lost cause "Save all objects" saved corrupted files ?

Strange that I've never stumbled on this. I must be lucky then! But of course, as soon as I'm finished with an object and all it's attributes I copy it to a subfolder and write-protect it. This behavior is because I've by accident overwritten objects when setting up different passes.

Verlon
07-17-2006, 04:09 AM
heh..never thought of write protecting it. Maybe you should write a plugin that does that :D

Panikos
07-17-2006, 04:11 AM
A 3rd party developer sent me an email that says "..... never ever ever ever going to happen."

I cant say his name, I wonder why he is hiding.

ThriJ
07-17-2006, 04:11 AM
I have been unable to keep myself from following these FP vs. LW9 threads the past few days. And what I have seen unfold has truly amazed me.

The complaints against NewTek and its escalation is not all that astonishing. The only surprising element is that some people are responding to not getting a feature like they would if a feature they were already using every day was taken away.

What is amazing is how NewTek is handling it. They could have taken a typical rout and remain quiet till the whole thing blows over. They could have taken the professional rout and remove the offensive threads and ban any member who tries to re-ignite the issue. I did not say that would be the moral, responsible or best way, but it would be the quick and painless method considered professional by curtain big businesses.

NewTek made the ethical decision to not only respond, but to take the time to then directly answer the questions at hand. Kurtis, Chuck and Jim (The President and CEO of NewTek for goodness sake) did this on the weekend when their presence should not be required.


Regardless of you opinions in regards to the F-prime situation, you can not say these are the actions of a company who would intentionally deceive people for months regarding features that affect the jobs of CG Artist. If anything, this says that these people are more concerned about the advancement of this creative technology then money and sales. And I also do not think that these are qualities that disgruntled users should go on to try and take advantage of. I can understand people’s frustration but I do not accept the attacks. The funny thing is that some people are attacking in a fear that NewTek is going to go away, which has existed long before this F-prime issue. But the fact is that these are only attacks that hurt NewTek and are not constructive statements intended to help NewTek see user’s needs.


For whatever reason the People at NewTek did not expect this issue to arise, and you can trust that NewTek understands everyone’s opinion on the matter now. I do not think anyone there will say “open up the SDK? Nah… lets first make the Icons twirl around and say LightWave Rocks! When you click on them”



After countless threads saying they are not listening to the users, we have now got in LightWave 9: SSS, N-Gons, Node Editing, Adaptive Pixel Subdivision… and the list goes on.



So lets give the people some breathing room!

KillMe
07-17-2006, 04:12 AM
hmmmmm - i admit i beleived worley that the sdk jsut wasnt there - but this thread makes me think it maybe is - so if the hooks in the sdk are there - then worley just cant be bothered updating fprime

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO it cant be so :cry: :cry:

tyrot
07-17-2006, 04:13 AM
dear panikos

rename yourself mate

P A N I C ! OS.

because you are in Panic mod, nothing will be good or IF YOU LEAVE LW we ALL will be ****ED.

Come on Mate. Next month if they dont fix anything sell me your LWdongle. And you ll be happy i ll be happy. This is a serious offer. So do not PANICOS Tyrot will get your DONGLOS!

_in my entire life with LW, i havent read that much negative posts together after a fantastic release_


BEST

Panikos
07-17-2006, 04:15 AM
Sure :thumbsup: :foreheads

colkai
07-17-2006, 04:16 AM
ThriJ..
Bravissimo! :D :agree:

Exception
07-17-2006, 04:20 AM
Look, guys, discussion is fine, but please let's not go into the 'I have been around longer than you have'. We all know eachother, we communicate on these boards daily, we're all respected members of this community, and highly valuable to it.

We do not need to agree on everything and still be civil and have some laughs while being constructive.

In that light I'd also like to say that this discussion is important and that constructive discussion helps us more than belittling, disdainful or angry posts.

I personally detect a conflict in the statements between Newtek and Worley. Since it is clear that Fprime is as important and vital to Lightwave as the other way around for a number of people, this discussion is also important.

The thing is, that over the years, despite the number of statments being released, I hardly ever have received straightforward answers from Newtek. They have been soothing words, but often without content. I feel worley is much clearer in this respect, as is Brad Peebler. However, it is much to Newtek's praise that they are communicating much more to us than in the past. All we need to sort out now, is the content.

I suppose that for many of us the future of Lightwave and Fprime are strongly related. We could not work with LW the way it is without Fprime (which has been around for years, mind you), and anything added to Lightwave that is not supported by Fprime is simply not as valuable to those people, including myself. Especially for those using radiosity, that dead child of Lightwave that was introduced in LW as the first 3D package, can be seens as largely nonexistant in Lightwave itself now, and Fprime or Kray is needed to augment this much needed functionality. What counts for Fprime counts for Kray too, and all other plugins.

We have been led to believe the SDK for 9 would be ready so that all shaders could interact and that the SDK would be completely opened up. The render engine being detached from layout and the ability to see the renderer as a plugin type were messages that were received with great anticipation. What we see now, much to our surprise, is that the primary 3rd party developer immediately after release denies outright that this functionality has been included in 9.0. This means something is awry, and it'd be nice to receive a clear status on this. If this was done prior to release, and we'd been updated as we went along about these issues, nobody would be upset now. It is again an example of bad communication.

Lightwolf's post is informative but also stipulates that there might be issues that prevent Fprime from properly using these hooks. From the 'we've been working closely with worley' messages, a picture is painted they've been sitting in the same room together trying to make everything work. This is obviously not the case, per worley's statement.

Cageman
07-17-2006, 04:25 AM
Why do i buy plugins if they will never talk to each other.....


I'm not a coder but my guess here is that the plugins needs to be rewritten to support the new core-changes. Pretty logical, isn't it? An example... I can't take an Amiga-plugin and expect it to work with LW on Windows. Why? Well, it's a completely different platform!!!

It's the same with LW9... it's a new platform, with somewhat good backward compatibility, but the old stuff written by 3:rd party will not automaticly see the new stuff, right?

Lightwolf
07-17-2006, 04:33 AM
so if the hooks in the sdk are there - then worley just cant be bothered updating fprime

I'd phrase this more carefuly... the SDK has hooks that at a first glance are what Steve needs, if they work as expected and stable in the context of FPrime is a completely different issue.
I could see them working in a final rendering situation but not during a preview render for example.
Once FPrime is in a situation where the users can edit a scene while FPrime is rendering, things can get very complicated very quickly (imagine a node graph being edited while it is being evaluated... which state is being evaluated? ... this can easily lead to a crash in the worst case)

Cheers,
Mike

Elmar Moelzer
07-17-2006, 04:37 AM
Hello!
Having worked with NewTek a lot over the past years in both development for LightWave and later as a 3rd party developer, all I can say is that NewTek puts a lot of effort into supporting their 3rd parties. We have had a great deal of communications going on with NewTek all the time after we moved on to work on our own product, VoluMedic.
My impression always was that they were very responsive to our requests and reports.
I can also see that the SDK hooks for Nodal support are all there and it looks like a lot of effort was put into making sure that 3rd parties like Steve Worley have all the things they need. IMHO, considering that this is the first release that contains this feature the SDK for this is very good already.
I dont quite know what the problems are that Steve Worley has to deal with, but from my understanding, doing something like Fprime is a non trivial task and he might need things that are not common enough for NewTek having them considered them during the initial implementation of the SDK support for Nodal. In any case I am sure that NewTek would have implemented the features that Steve Worley needs, had they known about them in time for this release.

In regards to support for certain features in external renderers I would also like to point out that this is not a trivial task to implement for both 3rd parties and NewTek. If you ever used MAYA, you will know that many features are not working or not working as well in Mental Ray as they do in MAYAs native renderer. I think that they improved on this a bit lately, but it took them quite a few full releases to get there.

Personally, being a 3rd party developer, I cant say how impressed and happy I am with LightWave9.0 and the improvements that NewTek made. Since LW8.0 many new and cool SDK enhancements have been added to LW that make the life of us so much easier.
E.g. the Comring, without this excellent feature VoluMedic would have never turned out that good. The Mesh Edit Functions in Layout, which allow us to do mesh creation directly in Layout without having the user transfer all his settings to Modeler and then do that there. This new feature actually allows for a lot more things than what we do in VoluMedic and I am very excited about the prospects of what 3rd party developers will do with it in the near future (and the implementation of the MEF in Layout will get even better in future updates).
For me this release truly shows that the NewTek is on the right way and I am much more confident for LWs future than ever.
CU
Elmar

Exception
07-17-2006, 04:42 AM
Now that is constructive information, thanks Elmar.
So how do you interpret worley's statement?

tyrot
07-17-2006, 04:50 AM
DEAR ELMAR!


THATs it... a perfect comment from an outstanding 3rd party developer...

End of story. Now some can go and cry at Steve's door for an answer...

EVERYONE except Worley is commenting here , Jim plant, Kurtis, Chuck, Elmar, Lightwolf ( i expect some words from Enki and MR.KRAY)

Everyone is happy because of LW9 except some.

Well MR.WORLEY you should come here from your unreachable legendary demigod place to earth and tell what s wrong with Fprime to your followers. Is it SDK? We think it is NOT. So what is it?

BEST

Cageman
07-17-2006, 04:52 AM
Now that is constructive information, thanks Elmar.
So how do you interpret worley's statement?

I will quote Elmar:

"...he might need things that are not common enough for NewTek having them considered them during the initial implementation of the SDK support for Nodal. In any case I am sure that NewTek would have implemented the features that Steve Worley needs, had they known about them in time for this release."

Pavlov
07-17-2006, 04:52 AM
Lightwolf - if these hooks cannot be avaluated dynamically as you say, couldnt worley structure Fprime so that it *stops* evaluating nodes while you tweak them, and *restarts* to render when nothing is happening into Nodal panel ? Kinda an internal "smart pause" feature.
Do you think it could work this way ? It does not seem such an impossible way, maybe interactivity would suffer a bit but nothing i coulnd live with.

Paolo

Exception
07-17-2006, 05:02 AM
As much as I hate caps, tyrot, I agree that it is Worley's turn to comment.

DogBoy
07-17-2006, 05:06 AM
Lightwolf's post is informative but also stipulates that there might be issues that prevent Fprime from properly using these hooks. From the 'we've been working closely with worley' messages, a picture is painted they've been sitting in the same room together trying to make everything work. This is obviously not the case, per worley's statement.

Ok, so Newtek have put in the hooks. Whether those hooks work for how Worley would like is another matter.
Our berating newtek, for not being clear/honest/whatever is pointless.
We do not know what has passed between NT and Worley. I'd guess they would both be under reciprocal NDAs, so I doubt we will ever know.
If Worley flagged up that at the moment those hooks aren't enough for him, then NT obviously decided that any extra changes would have to wait for a later iteration. They have to ship their product, and Worleys wishes come second to their own concerns. LW9 had to ship, and I think it is niave to think they'd hold it off even longer just to make Worley happy.

If FPrime still works as is, then that is testament to the fact that NT have gone out of their way to fix any issues the current version of FPrime had with their new codebase, and there were problems (as some of you who are complaining well know). They haven't said, "we had to change the code, and it broke FPrime, live with it until Steve can make a new one!". They made sure that it will work as is. They are working with Steve (we hope) to make any changes they feel can be made to open these new features to 3rd party devs.

looking back at Steves post on his site, it isn't nearly as negative as I first thought. I really thought he was being snitty, but now I realise that he isn't.

He states that he is happy that no work is needed to get his existing software to work with 9. That is a GOOD THING. It means he doesn't have to waste his time making a fix build.
He states that there are some new features that he hopes to be able to utilise at a later date, when NT are happy that their code to access those features is ready. So that means that he KNOWS what NT are working on, therefore there is communication.
He ends by saying that he is working on something cool. If Steve thinks it's cool, then usually it is.

Now, that is actually a positive post. There was NO finger pointing, you just chose to see it as if there was.

The fact is that you all expected/wanted more from both of them, and they have both "let you down". Lets all take a minute to collect our thoughts, reread what was actually said, and work out how we (not NT & Worley, but us ourselves) are going to progress for now.

We are making a mountain out of a molehill.

ThriJ
07-17-2006, 05:20 AM
Hey, this thread is finally regaining some logic and reason.:D


Still too much speculating this early in the morning for me:caffeine:

Lightwolf
07-17-2006, 05:34 AM
Lightwolf - if these hooks cannot be avaluated dynamically as you say, couldnt worley structure Fprime so that it *stops* evaluating nodes while you tweak them, and *restarts* to render when nothing is happening into Nodal panel ?
Nope, because it doesn't know about it. Unortunately, this goes both ways, Texture layers for example don't know that FPrime is evaluating them at the moment either (which can be a reason for more or less rare crashes of FPrime - I.e. Try copying and pasting texture layers a couple of times while FPrime renders, it will crash eventually).
Basically, FPrime is an ingenious hack of the LW SDK to get surface properties and meshes (plus a darn fast rendering core), using the SDK for something it was never designed to handle, even using Layout for something it was never designed to handle.

The easiest way would be for Layout to internally lock the state of the node graph while "evaluate" is being called.
As I said though, I'm speculating. The issues maybe completely different.

Cheers,
Mike

Exception
07-17-2006, 05:42 AM
Well that would be the kind of thing a mutual cooperation would result in, no?

Elmar Moelzer
07-17-2006, 06:01 AM
Let me add something to my previous post, since I feel that some people think that I was saying that the whole thing is Worleys problem. This is not true either.
Making things work for Steve Worley takes its time and what I meant by NewTek knowing about the issues with Nodal in time for the release is that they will take longer to fix than the time they had left until release of LW9.0. I am sure that Worley told them about them before LW9.0 was released, just to late for NewTek to do any larger changes to the app (bringing potential instabilities to a system that was running stable close to a release date is something you dont want to do).

The problem is that as Michael Wolf said Fprime is doing some things that are uncommon (things that the SDK and LW simply were not designed for). Steve Worley has to do them in order to make Fprime work in LW.
This is neither NTs fault, nor Worleys fault. It is just what the situation is like. Improving this is very difficult and it requires a lot of work (manhours).
This means that it will take time.

I sometimes have the feeling that people here expect NT to do nothing but putting in SDK- features that Steve Worley needs. This would IMHO be counter productive since some of Steve Worleys needs might be very specific, to the point of Fprime being the only plugin being able to use them.
Nevertheless NewTek is putting a lot of effort into this and we have seen some improvements already (e.g. Fprime being able to render HyperVoxels).

I also want to say that I really appreciate Jim Plants open statement here. It clearly shows how much NewTek is listening and is concerned about the issue.
I think that Steve Worley also stated pretty clearly that NewTek is working with him on fixing issues in regards to Nodal support and I know for a fact that there are some other outstanding issues being worked on by both parties.

That said, I am really looking foreward to future versions of Fprime and LW. E.g. our VoluMedic would benefit a lot from support for preview rendering of volumetric plugins in Fprime.
CU
Elmar

JBT27
07-17-2006, 06:47 AM
Yeah, now this is getting interesting again. I will only add that it would be very much appreciated if Steve Worley did post here......

Julian.

Exception
07-17-2006, 06:49 AM
Perhaps someone who knows him personally could tip him off?

Just searched the forum, but he doesnt seem to even have an account here?

Verlon
07-17-2006, 08:09 AM
He just doesn't seem to talk much about things that are not out yet. I would bet he is at least aware of this thread.

It would be nice to hear from him if he could give a clear vision of what to expect.

Still, we probably won't hear anything concrete until its all but done due to legal reasons.

Chuck
07-17-2006, 08:15 AM
Both statements to my eye contradict each other in the part I quoted. So I would like to know what is going on with that. :help:

Jim says the SDK is there, and the nodal system is there, open for developers. Then Worley at their page says it is still not there. I will like to know why.8~

If there is an NDA or similar, just let us know that you cannot talk about the matter right now. Or something that we can say "ah, that is the reason there is a discrepancy in what they say".:D

The problem that my posts have been addressing is that some people are taking Steve's statement just as you seem to be - that the Node SDK support that NewTek specified for the 9.0 release was not done. Review the threads, you'll see it in a number of messages. He didn't say that, but many are taking it that way. Directing people to the SDK itself seems like the best way to clarify that particular misunderstanding that some are drawing from the statement at Worley Labs' site. A very strong first round of SDK capability for the Node Editor is already in place, and, as Jim and Steve have both said in essence, even more is on the way.

Bog
07-17-2006, 08:20 AM
Crikey. I can understand going on about this all weekend, but it's Monday. Haven't any of you lot got jobs to do? (I'm obviously not talking to the people whose jobs it is to post here...)

Celshader
07-17-2006, 08:22 AM
Wow i already have IFW2 Textures.... You know what my only problem with it was? FPrime can't read LW shaders due to LW core shortcomings.

RedBull, IFW2 Textures (not IFW2 Nodes) are procedural (http://www.shaders.co.uk/ifw2_textures/about.htm) textures that work just fine with FPrime in LightWave 9.0. They do not show up in the Shaders tab. They show up alongside Turbulence and the Checkerboard textures in the "T" buttons.

I see your FPrime problem if you own IFW2 Nodes instead of IFW2 Textures, but your statement makes this unclear.

Cesar Montero
07-17-2006, 08:56 AM
Thanks Chuck!
I hope we get more from Newtek and Worley in the future.

By the way, does FPrime runs at x64/LW9?:question:

hrgiger
07-17-2006, 10:03 AM
A very strong first round of SDK capability for the Node Editor is already in place, and, as Jim and Steve have both said in essence, even more is on the way.

I think the thread should end with this statement and perhaps most of us can go away with some hope for the future instead of this overt negativity right on the bootheels of the Lightwave 9 release.

Simon
07-17-2006, 10:47 AM
I think the thread should end with the bablefish translation of the Japanese Worley page. Come on everybody "Without being disgusted even at this corporation, it is negotiation continuation schedule." ... :)



LightWave9 is out now!
♪ such as compatibility of ♪ this corporation product

Everyone of NewTek & D storm, LightWave9 release
You question truly with the め, it is! It seems the tired way.

At last, in addition there is some kind of influence in the tool of this corporation concerning LW9,
It can discuss everyone in the public け.

Regrettable, the improvement of SDK be able to do with LW9, unlike the plan of beginning,
The め which is not, there were no most many influences in the LW plug in which exists.
Because of that, as for all Worley tools it can use without LW9 and problem.

You inquire from everyone, it is many, it is one of the sale of LW9,
Concerning NodeEditor texturing system,
Is necessary for FPrime SDK which because of not yet released,
Inside FPrime regrettable, it is ignored.

Without being disgusted even at this corporation, it is negotiation continuation schedule.
Existing problem collectively, the release of SDK waits very.
As for Steve Worley whether now or now, when this job is possible it waits.

For a while, without renewing either the sight (it is usual thing, but... it is not completed),
It had made the scene, but, Steve Worley directing to the new product, piece by piece
We continue development. The favorable completion, with it is the valve of this person, ^ ^
You work pleasantly with the shade of everyone. You appreciate.
Also in the future we ask may.

As for Japan you think that very hot seasonal arrival, is. Please enter the summer when it is good arranging physical condition.
The ♪ which is mail welcome such as opinion and demand and in addition story of work

TSpyrison
07-17-2006, 10:49 AM
I think the thread should end with this statement and perhaps most of us can go away with some hope for the future instead of this overt negativity right on the bootheels of the Lightwave 9 release.

I agree, but not gonna hold my breath with this group..

Seems some people aren’t happy unless they are unhappy.

Me, Im very happy with 9. Hopefully, FPrime will be working with nodes soon. If not, im not gonna cry about it.

There are worse things in life to cry about.

T-Light
07-17-2006, 12:16 PM
DogBoy-

Now, that is actually a positive post. There was NO finger pointing, you just chose to see it as if there was.

Yes, it's all good :)

I agree with Lightwolf that although the nodes (input & output) are fully available, there must be something integral to the way FPrime requires data, that it simply isn't available with the current sdk pipeline. No one's fault and no one from Newtek or Worley is pointing fingers.

As I say, it's all good, best of luck to both parties and here's hoping for Autumn/Winter with FPrime + Nodal :thumbsup:

lots
07-17-2006, 01:53 PM
Having never owned Fprime up to this point, I will live a bit longer without it I think ;) Once all the nodal stuff is fixed up and Fprime is happy, I will likely (finally) jump on it..

Then again, my wallet hates spending money.....

RedBull
07-17-2006, 02:03 PM
The problem that my posts have been addressing is that some people are taking Steve's statement just as you seem to be - that the Node SDK support that NewTek specified for the 9.0 release was not done. Review the threads, you'll see it in a number of messages. He didn't say that, but many are taking it that way. Directing people to the SDK itself seems like the best way to clarify that particular misunderstanding that some are drawing from the statement at Worley Labs' site. A very strong first round of SDK capability for the Node Editor is already in place, and, as Jim and Steve have both said in essence, even more is on the way.

So we should not believe Steve's statement: "So there won't be an FPrime update that supports the Node Editor until the SDK is updated."

So Chuck, this Statement from Worley is being misunderstood?
Steve did not say that in essence it's been implemented,
he said until the LW9SDK is updated, FPrime can't work with Nodal...

"A very strong first round" sounds a little like a backflip....
So your saying now we need two or three rounds to get this right?
And the first round was not strong enough?


RedBull, IFW2 Textures (not IFW2 Nodes) are procedural textures that work just fine with FPrime in LightWave 9.0. They do not show up in the Shaders tab. They show up alongside Turbulence and the Checkerboard textures in the "T" buttons.

Celshader: IFW2 Textures are a collection of dozens of SHADERS and PROCEDURALS..... Richard started porting a lot of his SHADERS to PROCEDURALS a few revisions back, soley because of the outcry from his users to enable FPrime support.... So any of the Shaders that are not compatible and that could be ported from Shader to Procedural class, were added as both Procedurals and Shaders.... (there are still quite a few that didn't get ported) Darktree for example has the same situation. Darktree Procedurals will obviously work in FPrime because the SDK allows them too....

Darktree Shaders however will not work with FPrime because they are shaders.
The older shader system will never work with FPrime.....
So i think my statement was quite correct and fairly clear.

If i could use years, and dozens of my older shaders with Fprime,
i wouldn't need to look at other packages for the time being.
But i do understand that LWs architecture is too old to make this happen.

Nodal was a good choice for NT because supposdley it kills multiple birds with one stone.... New surfacing options, and the ability to share or query Nodal shader data, where the old shading system could not.
But it seems still currently, it still does not.... Or it does....
It's so hard to get a factual answer. :)

richcz3
07-17-2006, 02:23 PM
...3. Newtek did provide Nodal hooks, but in a way that doesn't satisfy Worley. Worley can theoretically access Nodal data, but it's too complicated or does not comply with the FPrime method of doing things...
My "2 cents" - "wild speculation" and "ima guessin" will say 3 woud make the most sense.

I'll add - Throw in curent hooks are "Subject to change in the 9.x cycle" and Worley waiting for that "open-endedness" to get locked before commiting dev time into it. Simply put potentially more fixit work for Worley at each point release. No one wants the burden of fixit if it's not solid enough to start with.

Chuck
07-17-2006, 03:50 PM
So we should not believe Steve's statement: "So there won't be an FPrime update that supports the Node Editor until the SDK is updated."

So Chuck, this Statement from Worley is being misunderstood?
Steve did not say that in essence it's been implemented,
he said until the LW9SDK is updated, FPrime can't work with Nodal...

"A very strong first round" sounds a little like a backflip....
So your saying now we need two or three rounds to get this right?
And the first round was not strong enough?
:)

I thought that I had said what I meant very plainly, but I'll try again:

Steve said that there are additional SDK elements that he wants to be implemented before he will move on adapting FPrime for the Node Editor. Some people took that to mean that NewTek had not implemented the SDK access to Nodal that we had specified in our feature list. That SDK access is implemented just as described in our feature list in both the preliminary version and in the final version describing the shipping release. I posted a couple of messages to let folks know that.

I see from the Worley Labs mailing list that you are telling people that both Jim and I have contradicted Steve and stated that everything he wants is already there. Please rest assured that this is not a correct reading of any of our remarks. We simply corrected the misapprehension that some people had developed that there was no SDK access to the Node Editor, and Jim expressed our reassurance to the community that we are working on expanded Node SDK capabilities for Steve and other 3rd parties for the future. Jim stated categorically that we have been working with Steve through the 9.0 cycle and that the work is continuing as we speak. Let me quote him on that last bit especially: "This work is ongoing."

I also notice that a phrase from a CGTalk post of mine that refers specifically to the 9.0 Node Editor SDK access as it existed in February, is being quoted out of context and claimed as being about Steve's SDK requests when those are in fact referred to in the same sentence of that post in future tense. Here's the whole sentence: Aside from the mention of a view with regard to priority, we also stated very clearly several times that we are in fact working very closely with Worley Labs to insure that anything he needs with regard to hooks for FPrime is going to be addressed, and we've provided a list of the SDK enhancements that indicate that we have in fact made the node system accessible, the new camera system accessible, and have increased access to volumetrics and other areas of the existing feature set.

"A very strong first round," is not a backflip; the team implemented a very extensive set of functions, and we expect that a lot of third party developers will demonstrate that we put in a lot of capability. Additional rounds are not a matter of "getting it right" because what was done was not done wrong and is the necessary foundation for everything that will follow after. Additional rounds are expanding that foundation and building on it, just like any other software application being progressively built and improved.

Bog
07-17-2006, 04:08 PM
Humph.

This still going on?

I've given NewTek an awful lot of money since LightWave 5.0, and never felt like I've wasted any of it.

Even when I had function issues directly relating to my immediate workflow, I felt supported and found either patches or workarounds in good time.

They've *NEVER* taken seven months to get back to me.

I don't see why anyone's giving NewTek a hard time, apart from the fact that you're used to them responding which kinda makes them an easier target. Of course, the simple fact that NewTek are nothing to do with the development of FPrime appears to need to be delivered to some people's skulls on the end of a lump-hammer, 'cause no matter how many times you tell 'em, they don't seem to hear...

kfiram
07-17-2006, 05:17 PM
I thought that I had said what I meant very plainly, but I'll try again:

Steve said that there are additional SDK elements that he wants to be implemented before he will move on adapting FPrime for the Node Editor.

Great, I just don't understand why it has taken you guys 116 posts to confirm what Worley had originally said.

So SDK hooks are there in 9.0, but they're still not what Worley needs. Newtek is aware of that and are working on a solution that will be available soon, during the 9.x cycle.

You see? two short sentences that explain it all in a way that everyone understands and accepts. No room for speculations and accusations, no contradictions, no smart-talking, no need to make lengthy statements, no reason to get Jim Plant himself involved in a forum debacle.
It would have been much easier to say it right then and there after the Worley site was updated.

Just to get things straight once and for all:
Is the above statement (in bold) a correct assessment of the issue, or have I misunderstood once again?

Pavlov
07-17-2006, 05:28 PM
I guess this large "fprime fever" can be easily explained; despite the huge improvements nine's engine is still not a viable solution fo GI, this is a fact.
Many improvement are to come or just underlying, but by now Fprime is (along with Kray) the only solution to stay productive for many people, sad but true.
I hope you can understand the level of care this can generate around these tools.
I'm making some tests with GI, some are not so better than before; in GI scenes Fprime offers an image in some minutes while LW still crawls after half an hour.
It doesnt matter who is on the bright side, i dislike this "find who lies" game; me (and many) hope a solution will arrive soon. Really not bashing LW9 and all its awesome goodness, but without Fprime i cannot use these goodies in production most of the times - and i'd need them btw.

Paolo

3DBob
07-17-2006, 05:35 PM
Thanks Elmar and Chuck. I only wanted an update to Fprime as it is so integral to my companys workflow, but let's face it, its pretty useless without LW - I just wished to see more of LWs coolness reflected in its engine. Didn't mean to start a cival war. That said....

Barring a statement from WL affirming the position as laid out, I think it is plain to see what the situation is now. The intention and the warm spirit of collaboration is established between the two key parties and all is proceeding as is possible when you are creating cutting edge software. Just that it hasn't got to the point were real user tangible progress can be made to create the final deliverable.

It was a dissapointment for me that on release there wasn't a shiny new FP to add icing to the 9 cake - but if we were still in beta this issue would not have risen to the surface.

In a way I'm doubly glad - firstly I can use the best version of LW ever now and secondly, the importance of FP leveraging LWs inherent power is back in the spotlight, I hope that both teams can do us proud, and give us the end state we crave in a timely fasion.

Until that time I'm using Flash ;-)

3DBob

As software developer myself I understand and sympathise with the situation. Newtek have been working so hard to give us the best version of LW and Worley has been working on more cool toys in the mean time - can't wait to see what his work has produced.

cagey5
07-17-2006, 05:38 PM
Kfiram. I'm guessing you are basically right in your assumption, but the root of the problem is that Newtek can never say that, hence the confusion , but what some people see as avoidance is just one companies very correct behaviour in not commenting on or making claims on behalf of another company.
'but they're still not what Worley needs'.... Only Worley can make that statement. Even if Newtek believes that is true they cannot claim that, Ask Newtek what they have done and they will tell you. Ask Worley what they need and they may tell you, but neither party can or should comment on the others business... That's reality.
Read between the lines and draw your own conclusions. For myself I believe both parties are truthful and honourable businesses, not out to mislead anybody. Now I can find a situation that balances the statements put out by both companies and am content with that.

Panikos
07-17-2006, 05:38 PM
Something else to consider

New Cameras are cool, no doubt.
However in Advanced Cameras, there is no OpenGL kind of preview. The only way to use them is tweak values, imagine, press F9. This takes us back 10 years at least.
Having the new Cameras preview will make them so useful.

Since in the near future, we dont see a tolerable GI replacement, at least let Volumetric Lights and LensFlare to show up in FPrime.

Such steps need to be taken in short term, not after 3 years.

Desiring a better LW is not a sin.

Lightwolf
07-17-2006, 05:46 PM
However in Advanced Cameras, there is no OpenGL kind of preview.
I doubt you'll ever see that. OpenGL has been designed to user perspective and ortihgraphic cameras... Anything further goes beyond the capabilites of OpenGL.
I guess it could be hacked, but it would be dead slow (OpenGL render to a texture, warp that using a mesh), and it would probably no be able to cover all cases either.

Cheers,
Mike

Bog
07-17-2006, 05:48 PM
*peers over his specs*

Got 500 frames rendering in FPrime now, using multibounce radiosity and therefore not in the reach of a single machine in any other renderer.

I've just blown something up in Dynamite using CFD that was the realm of mainframes about 2 years back.

Been throwing app detail into a Windows Vista app through LightWave modeler which, erm... only LightWave does properly.

Sorry kids. I don't see the problem.

Also, for the last time of saying - if you want more from FPrime, BUG WORLEY!!!!! For criminy's sake, you're harassing the wrong people.

Bop shu Wad.

TomT
07-17-2006, 06:05 PM
What?! I've been censored by my own forum software...

Heads will roll!

:jester:

-Jim


Hey, at least they didn't ban you! :jester:

Panikos
07-17-2006, 06:08 PM
I doubt you'll ever see that.

Yes, I know that is impossible in OpenGL, especially if you involve Textures to displace the Lens.

Thats why we need a RT-viewfinder, FPrime :)
:phone_cal

jasonwestmas
07-17-2006, 06:20 PM
Not that I don't appreciate the node editor in lightwave 9 but if fprime worked with sasquatch I'd be all over it and its radiosity feature especially. Granted I would certainly miss the displacement node rendering inside of lw9. Soo, with that said I sure would appreciate the radiosity to be much more practical inside of lw9. I also never understood why UV texture images never showed up on a model in viper.

monovich
07-17-2006, 07:22 PM
well, bummer. I was hoping the next statement from Worley would have better news. It seems both sides are gently blaming the other while also bowing to the fact that they need to get along because they need each other.

The bottom line for me is that it took me two and a half days to render 130 frames because I wanted to texture in node editor. if I had textured in layers mode, it would have been done in 4-6 hours.

Nodal needs Fprime to be useful to me, and Frime needs nodal to be useful to me. What's a guy to do?

archiea
07-17-2006, 07:51 PM
Thanks chuck.. what good can be derived from this is the interest the community has shown in your product, the sophistication of the third party software arena, and a dialog between the customers and NT.

I hope that you can also see how its just not the customer's misinterpretation of the press releases, but clearly the community was expecting the Fprime/LW marriage to continue shoulder to shoulder. I recall many posts in the beta section anticipating the Fprime solution to LW9's update. Is this Newtek's responsibility? No. But to underestimate our reliance on Fprime, regardless of the actual author, just doesn't seem wise. By underestimate I mean not having the SDK ready for the 9 release, which appears to be the reason as to why the Fprime upgrade is now a "possibility" instead of a reality.




Apologies, you are misremembering - the statement you are referring to was not in the FAQ, it was in the preliminary feature list, and it is also most emphatically present in the final feature list as well, at this link:

http://www.newtek.com/lightwave/highlights2.php#2

It's the last bullet in the Node Editor list:

Full SDK Support for third parties to create nodes (including shading models) and for third party renderers to interface with / query nodal shaders.

and I sent a correction that does not seem to have made it into the text:

Full SDK Support for third parties to create nodes (including shading models) and for third party renderers to interface with and query nodal shaders.

The original phrasing seems to have led some folks to believe that there is an entity that can be referred to as "query nodal shaders" or even "nodal query shaders." There isn't. There are nodal shaders. You can query them.

Kurtis meant nothing more nor less than that a forum thread in no way, shape or form constitutes an accurate poll and anyone making statistical claims for how the full community of users feels about an issue based on a thread needs to keep that in mind. And anyone who thinks that acknowledging this means that we discount the importance of listening to our users via the forums, mailing lists, newsgroups and other venues, please rest assured this is not the case. Such reactions are certainly an important measure of community feeling as well, but anecdotal, rather than rigorously statistical.

RedBull
07-17-2006, 08:08 PM
I thought that I had said what I meant very plainly, but I'll try again:
Steve said that there are additional SDK elements that he wants to be implemented before he will move on adapting FPrime for the Node Editor.
Rereading Jim's original post and indeed Newtek have only promised that the work is ongoing. So my apoligies, as i guess that is actually acknowledging and admitting that this it is still Newteks concern and not Worleys at this stage. And this was the clarification i was looking for.

Some people took that to mean that NewTek had not implemented the SDK access to Nodal that we had specified in our feature list. That SDK access is implemented just as described in our feature list in both the preliminary version and in the final version describing the shipping release. I posted a couple of messages to let folks know that.
No i think most people took the marketing press the way they were meant to,
actually, believing that the terms "working closely with Worley" would actually have an impact by implenting the appropriate needs of third parties such as Worley labs, to gain access and be able to utilize the new features such as Nodal. And we are (i am) all likely stupid for hoping that Newtek would treat seriously the requests of it users, rather than just pandering marketing spin to keep users hopeful that at release of LW9, the 12 months NT have had to prepare LW9, and the 7 months overdue status, that by some chance of a miracle some of this "working closely" spin would actually have had some benefit or come to fruition, of LW and Fprime users. Yes it was stupid of me.

I see from the Worley Labs mailing list that you are telling people that both Jim and I have contradicted Steve and stated that everything he wants is already there. Please rest assured that this is not a correct reading of any of our remarks.
You can blame your customers for not understanding the precise explantions,
and wordings, but to me "The customer is always right" because it's NT"s business and reputation that are hurt, and nothing else.

"Full SDK Support for third parties to create nodes (including shading models) and for third party renderers to interface with / query nodal shaders."

Yes i digress obviously i'm an idiot i read that combined with "working closely with worley labs" and assumed that FPrime would be able to interface and work with Nodal and LW9.... My apoligies.


We simply corrected the misapprehension that some people had developed that there was no SDK access to the Node Editor, and Jim expressed our reassurance to the community that we are working on expanded Node SDK capabilities for Steve and other 3rd parties for the future.
I don't think anyone claimed no Nodal SDK access, just not the required features we were led to believe would be made by Working closely with WorleyLabs for the LW9 cycle. I will obviously take press releasess with a grain of salt, and read between the lines while using a fine tooth comb to avoid the confusion in the future.


Jim stated categorically that we have been working with Steve through the 9.0 cycle and that the work is continuing as we speak. Let me quote him on that last bit especially: "This work is ongoing."
You're right, i did not read that in the correct context originally!
Having said that those remarks were due to a public outcry that invaded the LW forums by LW9 users, after the officially ungagged Worley Labs, announced that it was still a Newtek issue to work out.....

"A very strong first round," is not a backflip; the team implemented a very extensive set of functions, and we expect that a lot of third party developers will demonstrate that we put in a lot of capability. Additional rounds are not a matter of "getting it right" because what was done was not done wrong and is the necessary foundation for everything that will follow after. Additional rounds are expanding that foundation and building on it, just like any other software application being progressively built and improved.
Thankyou that is more forthcoming, but really i still believe that LW9 were expecting this work to be completed for LW9.0. And even some of the comments in this thread are sill giving users the wrong impression.


As for what Worley can or can't do with the current version of the SDK...that is not for me/NewTek to say. His track record for doing cool tech over the years is pretty **** amazing, so my hopes are high."
High Hopes? Current SDK? Close Communication?.. 1+1+1 = 111
Well obviously Steve doesn't have the same faith in his own abilities, as Jim seems to. Steve said very clearly it is up to Newtek to update the LW9SDK
before a new FPrime can use the Nodal featues.

So can you tell me why Jim's hopes, were as delluded as other LW users?
Let me clarify what Steve can do with the current SDK for you Jim:

"So there won't be an FPrime update that supports the Node Editor until the SDK is updated"

Despite the high hopes that Steve can peform Miracles, he obviously needs you people to peform a few of your own FIRST!!!! That close relationship and great communication these two companies are famous for seems to be stellar. :)

So this squarley puts the responsibility of SDK improvements on Newteks head, and not Worley's, if NT are serious about working with worley and improving the abiltiies of Lightwave for it's users on an "ongoing basis".

Anyway if you read my post on the worley list, you would know that i said,
that i was not upset or angry with anyone or anyone lied, i don't believe in anything malicious... But i do believe NT as well as myself were ignorant in many circumstances in relationship to this matter, and ultimately it only disappoints LW users. Clarification and a definate outcome that benefited, NT, Worley and us users were the only things i was after.... As slightly disappointing as the outcome is. Thankyou for the reply Chuck.

archiea
07-17-2006, 08:22 PM
If Fprime is your life, how worked you before without Fprime?

I'm a Fprime user too but this crying or bitching(call it whatever you like) is sensless and does not help anyone...




How did we work before Fprime? you mean like over two years ago? Like it was 2004: slow. Do you want to use allof your apps from 2004 without updates? Why deny the fact that we wish to work at the state of the art just to prove your point?

archiea
07-17-2006, 08:25 PM
Where was LW some years ago and where is now ?
I can list several artists of unparalleled skills that moved to a different app.
Get yourself a Box of LW6 and look at its sides. Where are these people ?



I kinda wondered why its been so hard to toss that box.. I;ve tossed the others, but not that one.. :D

Ivan D. Young
07-17-2006, 08:36 PM
Does anyone Doubt whether Worley Lab's can even code this **** thing. I mean he is not a John Carmack or anything. To me he is lousy in communicating with the community, some of his tools are wacky, and not everything works as expected. I love FPrime, but I don't know maybe he got Lucky. If he really knew his Crap he would of had this figured out a long time ago. I hope that I am wrong. I would like to use FPrime, but if I can't I will go on with out it. At the end of the Day, it is the Artist not his plugins.

archiea
07-17-2006, 09:28 PM
Does anyone Doubt whether Worley Lab's can even code this **** thing. I mean he is not a John Carmack or anything. To me he is lousy in communicating with the community, some of his tools are wacky, and not everything works as expected. I love FPrime, but I don't know maybe he got Lucky. If he really knew his Crap he would of had this figured out a long time ago. I hope that I am wrong. I would like to use FPrime, but if I can't I will go on with out it. At the end of the Day, it is the Artist not his plugins.


Not that worley needs my defense, but I doubt luck had any more to do with it than hard work and skill. It seems from folks here that Worley used the SDK in a manner that it was not designed for to give us a realtime renderer. That seems to point to some ingenuity, not luck. And if I recall Steve's teaser with the F9 key prior to Fprime's launch.. and the name "Fprime" itself a play on the Function keys used to render in LW, Id say Steve knew EXACTLY what he had his hands on.

Its seems what is left to "figure out" is getting LW's renderer to allow access to shaders by their parties. that is in NT's hands..

jameswillmott
07-17-2006, 09:44 PM
well, bummer. I was hoping the next statement from Worley would have better news. It seems both sides are gently blaming the other while also bowing to the fact that they need to get along because they need each other.

The bottom line for me is that it took me two and a half days to render 130 frames because I wanted to texture in node editor. if I had textured in layers mode, it would have been done in 4-6 hours.

Nodal needs Fprime to be useful to me, and Frime needs nodal to be useful to me. What's a guy to do?

-deleted-

kcole
07-17-2006, 10:09 PM
* Removed silly question *

Wow I need to go to bed. My question has already been answered.

jameswillmott
07-17-2006, 10:10 PM
Rereading Jim's original post and indeed Newtek have only promised that the work is ongoing. So my apoligies, as i guess that is actually acknowledging and admitting that this it is still Newteks concern and not Worleys at this stage. And this was the clarification i was looking for.

My opinion is, for Fprime to be updated, it's partially both NT and Worley's concern, if you read Chuck's statement carefully.

"Steve said that there are additional SDK elements that he wants to be implemented before he will move on adapting FPrime for the Node Editor."

"...will move on adapting Fprime...", not "...can move on adapting Fprime..".

"...wants to be implemented...", not "...needs to be implemented..."

Will versus Can, Wants versus Needs, suggests there is nothing in theory stopping the migration at this stage.

The features to allow Fprime to use nodes are in the SDK, but Steve Worley wants further development to the SDK before commiting to updating Fprime. It could be done now, but Worley chooses not to. I'm sure he has very good reasons, and hence the on going communication between Worley and NewTek to bring the SDK to a level where Worley is satisfied enough to update Fprime.

Fprime needs to be updated anyway, it isn't going to magically start working with nodes or the new cameras by itself... :D

These are my thoughts only, I don't presume to speak for anyone.

T-Light
07-17-2006, 10:14 PM
archeia-

That seems to point to some ingenuity, not luck.
:i_agree:
Indeed.

No luck involved at all, Fprime is a complex, weird beast, it will no doubt require inputs that the current sdk can not achieve. Not a problem, see what Newtek can kick out and what Worley can make of it. That's basically it. We want more, but that's the score.

Appologies for the ryhme, I'll do my time, It wasn't a crime, if you've read the the sign.

OK, I'll get my coat :(

Verlon
07-18-2006, 12:08 AM
JamesWillmott: A valid point, and the updates Worley wants may not even be related to FPrime (if you're in a conspiracy theory kind of mood).

It could be he needs the SDK for the mysterious 'something cool' he has been working on for over a year, and is, in essence, blackmailing Newtek because he is obsseviely working on the new project until he can complete it so he can takeover turbosquid, and gain control of the world banking system to ControlTheUnitedNationsAndLaunchHisVeryOwn NEW WORLD ORDER!

:devil:

If it is a case of Worley not choosing to, I'd bet that KRay or PIM comes through with one that works with nodes with no SDK update, and that would leave Worley in a rather unenviable position. So if that's the case, he's making a rather bold move assuming that no one else can get the job done before he can despite him waiting on an SDK update.

So I'd bet against that.....

Exception
07-18-2006, 01:37 AM
The problem with all this is as well...
that i've seen consistent brilliance of programming from Worley through the years, and the new Newtek team... seem to outsource everything... Nodal, the new cameras, the new render engine, they're all commissioned technology, that seems to more or less have worked in 8.5 already, so I can't help but wonder, what really is new under the *actual* LW hood? Is this perhaps a necessity of the parallel changeover tactic?
The funny thing is, we're all upset over nodal, but what about all the other things Fprime could do with supporting, like mentioned before, the new cameras, volumetrics, lens flares, surface shaders, post processing plugins, network rendering... Does this whole discussion reach into those as well, because as far as I can gather, the SDK now doesn't allow access to any of these functions yet, which is, in my humble opinion, very very thinly sown effort to increase 3rd party access.

It doesn't help that basically the only people that are on these forums to talk to the users are marketing folk. I don't think I've ever seen an actual Newtek programmer or software engineer post here. Nothing wrong with chuck and jim, but marketing talk just flies in the face of people who appreciate straight answers. Such as Lightwolf's posts, which I would like to point to as an example of straighforwardness.

Exception
07-18-2006, 02:34 AM
Hm, good old Deuce eh?
I know he's bugmaster...
I might have to take that back...

Chuck is marketing though, so is Proton.
But we all love Proton and Chuck, really, I didn't want to say anything bad about these good people. I'm sure you can understand the gist of my message.

I've heard more from Messiah, who's the great correspondent from Tuff Little Unit, and they were responsible for Nodal, the new cameras, Vizor etc, than I've heard from newtek programmers. Deuce even.
But ya know, I have no idea how all of that works, who works for what and who talks to whom, it's none of my business, but more straighforwardness is welcome, I always feel like we're bing kept at arm's length.

colkai
07-18-2006, 02:50 AM
Great, I just don't understand why it has taken you guys 116 posts to confirm what Worley had originally said.

Hey Bog, you got that lump hammer?

Chuck actually stated, in the reply you are referring to, that people are mis-interpreting what he says. I am beginning to think maybe even deliberately, just to allow your "beef" to continue. I don't think some folks would recognise a plain statement if it danced naked on the table single "plain statements are here again".

:2guns: :2guns: :2guns:

Jarno
07-18-2006, 03:06 AM
Hm, good old Deuce eh? I know he's bugmaster...

Bugmaster, testing coordinator, official Newtek bus driver.


I've heard more from Messiah, who's the great correspondent from Tuff Little Unit, and they were responsible for Nodal, the new cameras, Vizor etc

Nodal is Antti's work, not TLU.


than I've heard from newtek programmers

Me and Messiah ARE part of the Lightwave development team. There is not some unseen and unheard of herd of newtek programmers which we are helping out.

---JvdL---

Exception
07-18-2006, 03:14 AM
Hay thanks for the corrections, who's Antti?

But but but er but... So what's happening with TLU then?
you guys moved to texas?
just curious...

But, Vodka (the new cameras), CCTV, Vizor and some other things WERE Lw plugins, no? I hear they've been changed a lot but they were TLU 3rd party plugins to begin with no?

(Envisioning texan grazing field with hidden and unseen herd of Newtek programmers. They bear resemblance to the purple milka cow. They are singing a song about pixie dust. again.)

ps are you dutch?
... and non-attending? again?

Kuzey
07-18-2006, 03:22 AM
This is turning out better than the "hmmm 14th already" thread :D

I love this game you guys are playing. The one where you have a line of people and have the first one whisper a sentence into the ear of the next person and so on until you get this:

Lightwave 9 rocks and lets give Kuzey 2 euros each..so he too can play with it on a new Macbook Pro :D

:thumbsup:

Kuzey

Panikos
07-18-2006, 03:44 AM
Marketing people SHOULD visit this place more often and try to sense what they are selling, the strengths, the weaknesses, the problems, the tight deadlines, the bottlenecks, the bugs. Looking at nice galleries is not enough. God knows what these artists had been through.

Visiting this place once at a serious problem and posting 10 messages only means that the image formed is something a messenger brought, usually distorted.

Programmers need to communicate with users, unless they are forbidden (wrong).

Seems that Newtek is counting its words to camouflage the weaknesses. We arent stupid nor naive nor we believe the press releases without expressing our thoughts. We are paying you to survive and DEVELOP not to wave a soup of bugs non-stop.

Bog
07-18-2006, 03:48 AM
There is not some unseen and unheard of herd of newtek programmers which we are helping out.

So you're denying the existence of the NewTek Coding Pits deep under the San Antonio desert, where pallid, luminous-eyed creatures from the Deep C pick away at the codeface, unsensed by and invisible to the Daywalkers above?

Tsh. Like we'll believe that!

*twitch*

DogBoy
07-18-2006, 04:47 AM
I've heard more from Messiah, who's the great correspondent from Tuff Little Unit, and they were responsible for Nodal, the new cameras, Vizor etc, than I've heard from newtek programmers.

Messiah IS a LightWave programmer. Antti is actually the developer of Nodal (as far as I can tell), who also has posted regarding how nodal worked.
I've also seen Deep-Purple (David F) post, yet another of the dev team.

But to be honest, I doubt they would get involved in this. Why should they? 3rd party relations isn't there business. LightWolf has pointed out that hooks are there. Chuck has said hooks are there. Why do you insist on pushing this further? What good will it do things to drag yet more NT staff into a debate that has reached it's end. Don't you think they need a short break before starting on the next point release, without being pulled into answer pointless questions.

There are hooks in place. Worley would like more before he works on a new version of Fprime. They are hopefully coming. he is aware of the situation and ongoing work.

Steve just pointed out that for now it isn't worth his time doing an update for FPrime. That he is content that the current version doesn't need a fix for it to work as is with LW9.

It isn't NTs business when Worley wants to do an update. It isn't Worleys job to have a brand new version for you to play with 2 days after the release of LW9, it is his perogative. he posted to put a stop to the deluge of where is the new FPrime mails he was getting. He wanted to do what NT have been at pains to do through this thread, explain the lay of the land.

I really don't think there is any obfuscation going on here, just a misunderstanding by us, the unwashed masses.
Please let's leave it at that.

Exception
07-18-2006, 04:51 AM
Don't you get tired from posting these "stop the discussion!" posts? Discussion is healthy and productive, and if you do not think this issue is important, then that is your perogative. We do, and wish to pursue this. Let's just give everybody a bit of space, ok? There's no need for hostilities.

ThriJ
07-18-2006, 05:00 AM
I agree discussion is useful…

when conducted in the right manner…

And if it does not try to pull people away from there tasks.

messiah
07-18-2006, 05:15 AM
Hay thanks for the corrections, who's Antti?

Dont want to speak for Antti here, but its safe to assume he is also deeply involved with LW development(he originaly developed the Nodal project with help from a few other people).


But but but er but... So what's happening with TLU then?

Jarno and me work on LW while the others at TLU continue to do their thang as in effects work, we still s**k when it comes to updating websites though :)


But, Vodka (the new cameras), CCTV, Vizor and some other things WERE Lw plugins, no? I hear they've been changed a lot but they were TLU 3rd party plugins to begin with no?

ACT, APS and a few other choice bits started off as a 3rd party tool yes, but the LW9 tools are so different(source level implementation differences) you could call them reimplementations of the concepts developed as a plugin.


... and non-attending? again?

Yepp, unfortunately we will for the first time break the exponential curve we have been nursing as its inpossible within our universe and/or technological level(non attendance twice for the same event would require timetravel), TLU will be represented though but go easy on Peter if you see him :)

Kuzey
07-18-2006, 05:24 AM
Don't you get tired from posting these "stop the discussion!" posts? Discussion is healthy and productive, and if you do not think this issue is important, then that is your perogative. We do, and wish to pursue this. Let's just give everybody a bit of space, ok? There's no need for hostilities.

How can it be a discussion when one side doesn't add their voice to it. Since we haven't got that side/viewpoint from the horses own mouth then this is really just a version of the whisper game and not a real discussion at all. When people think they know what's going on by a single post on a website somewhere and reading things into this and that of what people here post is really not productive.

Just play with LW 9, because I can't and I'm really jealous of that fact.

Having said that, I do love to hear more code talk from the coders out there :bowdown:


ps. Maybe the answer is Newtek should buy FPrime but I don't think that will ever happen..I hope it won't :D


Kuzey

Exception
07-18-2006, 05:34 AM
How can it be a discussion when one side doesn't add their voice to it.

Who's picking sides? We're all individuals here that can share information. I feel everyone here has something to contribute, and a lot of posts in here that are not from newtek or some other developer help as well.


Just play with LW 9, because I can't and I'm really jealous of that fact.

No, I won't because it doesn't add anything that is useful to me. Hence the discussion. Which is annoying to say the least after 6 months of highly dedicated beta testing and having believed in full to near full Fprime support, only to find out there is none. I just have nothing to do in 9... there is nothing now that is even remotely useful. That is just painful, and are you surprised it makes some of us disapointed?


Having said that, I do love to hear more code talk from the coders out there :bowdown:

indeed. That stuff is golden.

DogBoy
07-18-2006, 05:39 AM
Don't you get tired from posting these "stop the discussion!" posts? There's no need for hostilities.
Yes I do get tired of this. I wasn't meaning to be hostile, I just felt there was a lot of mispalced hostility and finger-pointing going on.

I'm sorry if you felt I was hostile. I read your post as hostile and that probably reflected in my post. I also felt that this thread was going round in circles, everything that could be said, had been said.

Kuzey
07-18-2006, 05:39 AM
No, not sides, as in picking a side but as in Steve's view and is it really possible to get what he wants anyway without putting a ton of bugs back into LW9.

Kuzey

mouse_art
07-18-2006, 05:48 AM
No, I won't because it doesn't add anything that is useful to me. Hence the discussion. Which is annoying to say the least after 6 months of highly dedicated beta testing and having believed in full to near full Fprime support, only to find out there is none. I just have nothing to do in 9... there is nothing now that is even remotely useful. That is just painful, and are you surprised it makes some of us disapointed?


Don't speak for others, they can speak for them self...ok the features aren't useful for you...that's fine, but that is not everyones opinion, you guys believe that you are the only one on this planet with wishes for features, or changes?

I tell you i give something less to this problem, because there are much more important things out there for me than fprime....and i am a fprime user too, if you bind youself to one plugin, then you have a big problem buddy.


You give yourself the right to tell the people what's the majority of users need, do you know the proportion of fprime user to LW licenses?
I don't think so, i mean sure there are many fprime users but enough to put the SDK on top
of their priority list?
Keep in mind that LW needs despite this nice 9th Release(and best imo)
so much work, and NT knows that im sure.

The bugs they killed is more important than you think even more than this little fprime problem that will solve so or so in time.

Exception
07-18-2006, 05:50 AM
Don't speak for others, they can speak for them self...so don't speak for some peoples they can also do for them self here.


They have. Loud and Clear.

Don't tell others what to do. (A beer for whoever spots the paradox in this one)
That is so extremely rude, it smells of elderberries.

Back to being constructive?
Great.

DogBoy
07-18-2006, 05:55 AM
Who's picking sides?
Well, form where I'm standing, you are. You are berating NT because you assumed there would a new Fprime.
Unfortunately for everyone there isn't. But to make it purely a "Newtek have been bad" issue, is a gross oversimplification. People here want someone to blame, and mostly they have put the blame at NTs feet.


Which is annoying to say the least after 6 months of highly dedicated beta testing and having believed in full to near full Fprime support, only to find out there is none. I just have nothing to do in 9... there is nothing now that is even remotely useful. That is just painful, and are you surprised it makes some of us disapointed?

No, we all understand your pain. It is deeply annoying for a lot of people. But there are lot of people who are reading more into Steves' post then was there. They see this post, and see the age old problem of NT "speaking untruths". Steve never promised you a new FPrime, so why berate NT when he doesn't produce one?


Steve, as is his right, has not seen fit to clarify his post. Chuck and Jim (and the other NT flack-catchers) have tried to give a more rounded idea of what they feel the issues are. As a non-Worley LW user I have no idea if Steve is getting the roasting Newtek are getting here, but I strangely doubt it.

There is no blame to apportion here. Just a woeful lack of a new tool we crave.

mouse_art
07-18-2006, 06:00 AM
They have. Loud and Clear.

Don't tell others what to do. (A beer for whoever spots the paradox in this one)
That is so extremely rude, it smells of elderberries.

Back to being constructive?
Great.


Buddy read it, there is nothing rude in it, so you don't have to attacking me.

Exception
07-18-2006, 06:10 AM
Buddy read it, there is nothing rude in it, so you don't have to attacking me.

Erhm, yes, telling someone what to do or not to do is rude. 'you guys' is also rude. And I am not your 'buddy'.
But take it as you want.

Concerning the 'speak for yourself', I even put the 'for me' in italics. How much more would you like me to speak for myself?



You give yourself the right to tell the people what's the majority of users need...

Honestly, where do you get this stuff?



so why berate NT when he doesn't produce one?


Can we stop the blame game, killing the messenger, whatnot?
I'm not berating Newtek, I am proud to say to have at least 100 bugs in yonder beta list, spend hours on these forums each day, for years, to help, learn and communicate, and I am afraid that you are putting everybody who has inquiries into this matter, which goes beyond this mere thread, but to a long while back into the beta process, on one pile as in 'berating' newtek?
I am out to get information. I am also really trying to keep this civilised, but wherever you go, there's people who feel that Newtek need to be defended. I feel they are certainly worth defending, but we're all in the same camp here, so can we focus on the issue at hand? It's already an unpleasant subject, the conversation doesn't need to be.
Thanks.

DogBoy
07-18-2006, 06:56 AM
Beating the horse! Beating the horse! :jam: :jam: :jam:
:rock: :rock: :rock: :rock:

tonybliss
07-18-2006, 07:17 AM
beat the £[email protected]% horse .... yeah !!!!!

R and R forever !!!!!!!

TSpyrison
07-18-2006, 08:03 AM
Beating the horse! Beating the horse! :jam: :jam: :jam:

But, Its not dead yet.. It still twitches..

This whole thread is funny, but in an MTV “Jackass” sorta way. You know, where the guy lets his friends kick him in the nuts for a good laugh..

Newtek has done a great job with 9, especially considering the drama with the “old” team and its shenanigans, and how long it took to recover from that fiasco. The new team is doing great, and I like the path they are on. But some people will never be happy with anything, and we have a “He said – They said and who’s lying” debate over one plugin from a 3rd party guy.

I use FPrime. I love it. What I don’t understand is how people could integrate it into their pipeline so much, with its obvious limitations. (No shaders, Subdivisions at “display” level, no network rendering.)

Then to get torqued off at NewTek about it. Its all their fault.. Bad Newtek.. Bad!

Did you build your company around the abilities of one plugin? Put all of your eggs in one basket? FPrime’s ability to do radiosity is great, but perhaps we are loosing the skill of lighting by being able to just toss an HDRI image as a backdrop and turn on radiosity. Do you never use any shaders at all?

Oh wait.. That’s Newteks fault too..


(And for those who wont be able to tell, please note the sarcasm)

Lightwolf
07-18-2006, 08:07 AM
Did you build your company around the abilities of one plugin? Put all of your eggs in one basket?
Well, it seems that for some people LW is the plugin for FPrime ;)

Cheers,
Mike

Exception
07-18-2006, 08:26 AM
Tspryson, ever tried to do architectural visualisation without Fprime?
Radiosity animation for any length of time?

That's the key, radiosity. There's just no way around it, for radiosity LW is too slow, and only remotely useable for stills.

Fprime saved Lightwave's hide for several years for a substantial number of people, including our studio, and we rely heavily on radiosity.
It is of course not more than logical that there are a larger amount of people that do not rely on Fprime than that do, but in this market, there's hardly an alternative.

So yes, Fprime is equally important to us as LW is, and therefore, we have addressed these issues long ago already.

Pavlov
07-18-2006, 08:34 AM
A small new from Worley Labs - here's what i've been told:

bye, Paolo

_____
Jarno created the new ACT camera system and one of the big updates to the LW 9 SDK was his very clean query functions for it. There are still some
technical issues we're working out with him dealing with notification and
refreshing. But even with the current LW 9.0, Mr Worley is pretty confident
he'll be able to get some ACT support into a new FPrime (I don't know when
that will be though ).

Panikos
07-18-2006, 08:36 AM
I agree.
Radiosity for some people is very important.
FPrime rescued us big time.
LW's Radiosity is useless and I dont want to imagine where would I have been without FPrime.

How long will it take for Newtek to code a better GI ?
It will take much shorter time to enbrace FPrime, its the shortest path plus it gives tremendous value to LW.
No other similar tool in other apps is as cool as FPrime, you may freely ask other people how much they wished they had FPrime for Maya, Max, Cinema4D ...

TSpyrison, If I deprive you from something you cant work without, then you will realize its value.
FPrime with its current limitations + LW8.5 is more important than LW9, at least for a respectful percentage of users that Newtek cannot ignore nor give low priority.

TSpyrison
07-18-2006, 08:41 AM
So are you saying there was absolutely no architectural visualization before the introduction of radiosity?

Panikos
07-18-2006, 08:44 AM
No I say that when I client comes and wants Radiosity (we are living in 2006 and clients have some demands), I CANNOT show him LWs GI, its crap !

LWs GI is the same since LW6.*.

Even for commercial applications, when a client requires Caustics, I dont have anything to show, I lost a series of projects.

Exception
07-18-2006, 08:47 AM
TSpryson: Yes there was, but Before there was radiosity in Lightwave, there was radiosity in Lightscape, which a lot of people used back then for their work. Lightscape died (read: massacred by Autodesk) just when LightWave introduced radiosity as one of the first animation packages. Newtek gained a lot of clients this way, but subsequently disappointed them by not updating the radiosity engine ever since its intorudction in 6.0 That's 3 whole versions and a lot of years!

Without Fprime we would not be competitive by far...

Times change, and so do professions. Was there no animation before the advent of the computer? Sure there was, but do you see any traditional cartoonists making any breakthroughs anywhere in this day and age?


Good post Paolo! thanks for that...

Exception
07-18-2006, 08:58 AM
...that Newtek cannot ignore nor give low priority.

Unfortunately, that's exactly what they've been doing for years.
Arch Viz is really a non-isse for Newtek, and I suppose we've all realised this years ago already. It's just dumbfounding how they can throw that market away like that... It is potentially 10 times bigger than cahracter animation, by far! And now... we're falling in between somewhere, we're going to have to switch some time, but I really don't want to because I really really like Lightwave so much, and the guys at Newtek as well...

Thank _god_ for people like Steve and Greggorz, but perhaps they are only postponing our inevitable switch?
But what then? Vectorworks + Vray?
Freakin 3DS VIZ?

3DBob
07-18-2006, 09:07 AM
Hi Exception,

I know how you feel about LS, I do to - you know that. But I have to say that newtek made a very big leap as far as I am concerned with Arch Vis in 9 - they offerred LWCAD 1.5 for free! I already had it but I took advantage of Viktors 2 for 1 v2 and upgraded my second seat via Safe Harbor to 2 for a measly $75 - and I am very glad I did - the toolset is amazing. I just did a logo design this morning using LWCAD2 and I recon I got better results in 1/3 time.

I am looking forward to doing some upcoming ArchVis work.

I'd also like to add that the cutting edge for Arch vis rendering is Maxwell - But it is increadibly, unfeasibly slow - but still people want its look. Its look is not possible with anything else - and it supports LW (but with more limitations than FP) I guess for now we'll just have to get better at compositing.

3DBob

Chuck
07-18-2006, 09:14 AM
The problem with all this is as well...
that i've seen consistent brilliance of programming from Worley through the years, and the new Newtek team... seem to outsource everything... Nodal, the new cameras, the new render engine, they're all commissioned technology, that seems to more or less have worked in 8.5 already, so I can't help but wonder, what really is new under the *actual* LW hood? Is this perhaps a necessity of the parallel changeover tactic?
The funny thing is, we're all upset over nodal, but what about all the other things Fprime could do with supporting, like mentioned before, the new cameras, volumetrics, lens flares, surface shaders, post processing plugins, network rendering... Does this whole discussion reach into those as well, because as far as I can gather, the SDK now doesn't allow access to any of these functions yet, which is, in my humble opinion, very very thinly sown effort to increase 3rd party access.

It doesn't help that basically the only people that are on these forums to talk to the users are marketing folk. I don't think I've ever seen an actual Newtek programmer or software engineer post here. Nothing wrong with chuck and jim, but marketing talk just flies in the face of people who appreciate straight answers. Such as Lightwolf's posts, which I would like to point to as an example of straighforwardness.


There is no "outsourcing" in v9 - these programmers are the team now, with many of them having been aboard since the [8] cycle, and what they are doing is under the hood. The majority of the items, even though originally prototyped as plug-ins, have instead been coded into the core, in some cases from the ground up.

And I'm not in marketing, but from my long experience there I know that the marketing staff makes every effort to talk to the appropriate staff in development to get accurate answers, and that includes talking to programmers as needed. Being human from time to time there may be mistakes, but the dismissiveness that some people give to marketing staff is completely unfounded and in some cases outright egregious.

Gregg "T.Rex"
07-18-2006, 09:19 AM
But what then? Vectorworks + Vray?
Freakin 3DS VIZ?

Modo 3.02 ?? :D

Lightwolf
07-18-2006, 09:24 AM
egregious.
e·gre·gious (ĭ-grē'jəs, -jē-əs)
adj.

Conspicuously bad or offensive.

Sorry, I had to look that one up, and I assume I'm not the only one...

Cheers,
Mike

Earl
07-18-2006, 09:28 AM
Sorry, I had to look that one up, and I assume I'm not the only one...
This isn't the first time I've had to look up something Chuck wrote. I'm always learning new words from him!! :bowdown:

Exception
07-18-2006, 09:46 AM
Hi Exception,

Hi bob! :)


I know how you feel about LS, I do to

Yes, LWCAd was a nice gesture, but it does not address the bottlenecks of Arch Viz, which is, obviously, what we would buy a new version of a program for, to work better and faster. The bottleneck is, and has been for years, radiosity.


I'd also like to add that the cutting edge for Arch vis rendering is Maxwell

As you say, Maxwell is nice, but too slow, and not useful for animation at all.
It is, in fact, slower than Lightwave itself.

Exception
07-18-2006, 09:47 AM
but the dismissiveness that some people give to marketing staff is completely unfounded and in some cases outright egregious.

I did not say anything about the staff, I said something about marketing talk.

egrergrious grygrgrgrous.

Nicolas Jordan
07-18-2006, 09:51 AM
I am sure Steve Worely has great things in the works and instead of just putting out a free update to FPrime with minimal enahancments he is most likely putting together some really cool enhancments for FPrime that will be worth waiting for and my guess is it may be a paid upgrade for FPrime. It only makes sense to release a new version of FPrime once the dust settles a bit with the new Lightwave rewrite. By the sounds of it there is still alot of work to do in the parallel change over. I have to say that the Lightwave is shining more than it has in a long time with this 9.0 update! :thumbsup: I am also content to be patient and wait a while for the next surprise from Worely Labs.

Pavlov
07-18-2006, 09:53 AM
Exception, youre wrong.
Maxwell is FASTER than lightwave, would you have guessed ?
Maybe noisy, but you get an useable result in less time than LW. Stack studios, a big Viz firm relying on LW, has totally jumped to Maxwell because it saves time and it's better quality.
Just to say how dated and unusable LW's GI is.
Actually, i've made several comparisons Fprime VS Maxwell; got extremely similar results in 1/10 or 1/15 of the time.
And this was to say how awesome and unique Fprime is.

Paolo

Exception
07-18-2006, 10:00 AM
Exception, youre wrong.
Maxwell is FASTER than lightwave, would you have guessed ?
Maybe noisy, but you get an useable result in less time than LW. Stack studios, a big Viz firm relying on LW, has totally jumped to Maxwell because it saves time and it's better quality.
Just to say how dated and unusable LW's GI is.
Actually, i've made several comparisons Fprime VS Maxwell; got extremely similar results in 1/10 or 1/15 of the time.
And this was to say how awesome and unique Fprime is.
Paolo

Holy smokes... shows how often I have pressed F9 in the last um... triannium?
I completely agree that Maxwell is nice, and that you can get the same stuff out of Fprime. but faster. Yayy.

This Fprime thing sucks tho.
*kicks computer*

Cesar Montero
07-18-2006, 10:15 AM
One good thing about the new Maxwell Studio, is that it has a previewer.
It is pretty fast to preview, even when you handle a lot of polys.
So even when it is slow to make the final image, the previewer helps you work faster.
Just a note for those who believe Maxwell is still as the first version.
It has evolved quite a bit.

Chuck
07-18-2006, 10:26 AM
Marketing people SHOULD visit this place more often and try to sense what they are selling, the strengths, the weaknesses, the problems, the tight deadlines, the bottlenecks, the bugs. Looking at nice galleries is not enough. God knows what these artists had been through.

Visiting this place once at a serious problem and posting 10 messages only means that the image formed is something a messenger brought, usually distorted.

Programmers need to communicate with users, unless they are forbidden (wrong).

Seems that Newtek is counting its words to camouflage the weaknesses. We arent stupid nor naive nor we believe the press releases without expressing our thoughts. We are paying you to survive and DEVELOP not to wave a soup of bugs non-stop.


Everyone at NewTek in marketing and management reads the forums daily. Your assumption that because our CEO, Jim Plant, has posted only 11 times means that he only visits rarely and spends his time just looking at the galleries is not just incorrect, there's really not the least shred of logic for it. Leaping to conclusions and criticizing people for behavior that isn't actually what they are doing helps nothing.

We also do encourage the members of the development team to read and to participate on the forums, for just the reason you mention - to hear the users' experience with the product. And they do participate, as much as possible.

KevinL
07-18-2006, 10:29 AM
During the past two days this particular discussion has run, I have loaded my new plugins, used LWCAD2.0 to whip out an industrial model and utilized F-Prime to setup my lighting scheme. Played with some of the new functions in LW9, configured a good chunk of my custom menu layout and roughed the animation for the industrial piece.

Oh yeah, I've also locked sync on a multi camera shoot (not LW but it's some work I'm getting done).

While I am all for spirited discussion, I really like coming into this (and other forums) and learning cool new things, hearing about someones accomplishments and of course, sharing the amazing gifts of someones expertise or PLUGINS that rock (edgepack!!!). Personally, whether Newtek writes it, buys it from another coder or some other coder provides it to us, I just don't care, because I'm getting the work done. Sure it would be nice to have everything I want, with every feature I want, when I want it, with no crashes, for cheap and free, but I'm stuck in this dimensional construct of time and space for the moment :)

Just my thoughts on the subject. Have a pixelated day :)
Kevin

3DBob
07-18-2006, 10:33 AM
With FP you can get great fast results because you can throw lights around and see their influence. In MW you can put loads of lights in, render for a day come back and adjust all the lights in realtime with the multilight feature to get just the right look without having to re-render - or a whole host of cool variations (day / night / flash shots). Do this at a low res for quick results - then go back set up the VIDEO/HD size render and bang out an animation at your local render farm.

3DBob

Pavlov
07-18-2006, 10:38 AM
OT/ bob, a question: once you have calculated the solution in Maxwell, is it cached in any form for animation or must it recalculate the whole thing again each frame ? /OT

Fprime rocks ! (just to say something on topic)

bye
Paolo

StereoMike
07-18-2006, 10:43 AM
Can any of you say something about Kray in comparison to Fprime/maxwell regarding ArchViz?

Thanks,
Mike

Cesar Montero
07-18-2006, 10:45 AM
Bob: I agree, FPrime is faster than Maxwell. Almost all my still images are made with FPrime.I even made my final animation for VFS with it. Maxwell works great for difficult shots. I use it more as a fun toy than a production tool. I can't use it when the client as for a 54'' tall image of a diamond..hehe (yeah, got that one recently).


Can any of you say something about Kray in comparison to Fprime/maxwell regarding ArchViz?

Thanks,
Mike
Otacon has used also Kray.
If you PM him I'm sure he will be willing to give you a hand
:)

Pavlov
07-18-2006, 10:53 AM
Kray is another jewel. It has limitations like no Motion Blur and other things due to the same SDK limitations which affect fprime (shaders, volumetrics and so on), but overall Kray is as fast if not faster than Vray and in the latest betas i can say it's the very same quality, since it introduced a lot of improvements like logaritmic Tonemapping and interactive rendering like fprime (you cannot tweak while it renders, but you see the image materializing in the same way of Fprime so you have an immediate perception of the "look" it will have).
Again, it features a very powerful Baker - nothing come close in LW market.
For interiors, it's probably one of the best/fastest animals on the planet, i hope Grzegorz put it out soon so people can appreciate it, and finish the manual since it's a quite tech engine with tons of options and text tags to finetune it.
Btw it's much faster than fprime if you use interpolation, and you get very precise results anyway; for extreme precision (Montecarlo/Pathtracing), i guess Fprime is still faster.
Anyway a basic use is very simple once you know the steps. It would be nice if a cut-down, few commands version of Kray was implemented in LW.

Paolo

Ivan D. Young
07-18-2006, 11:07 AM
I have a solution, how about Newtek just code something like FPrime and release it in lw 9.XX then this whole discussion would be over. The initial concepts of FPrime are based in some sort of White paper from Siggraph, right? I still am not confident that FPrime is the ultimate tool. It was suppose to render SAsquatch it does not do that. A network renderer should be possible now, I don't know if it would require that much done to SDK, as much as it would need an interface for Networking. So really there should be some sort update, Worley Labs really needs to get their story straight. But oh yeah they only leave cryptic mesages on their website which they only update once or twice a year. Where as Newtek is in constant contact on a daily basis. I tend to trust the people I hear from more than those I do not, maybe I am strange?

jasonwestmas
07-18-2006, 11:12 AM
Oh man, I hope NT makes a better Viper and Radiosity then I wouldn't be tempted to buy all this stuff! :D

jasonwestmas
07-18-2006, 11:17 AM
I have a solution, how about Newtek just code something like FPrime and release it in lw 9.XX then this whole discussion would be over. The initial concepts of FPrime are based in some sort of White paper from Siggraph, right? I still am not confident that FPrime is the ultimate tool. It was suppose to render SAsquatch it does not do that. A network renderer should be possible now, I don't know if it would require that much done to SDK, as much as it would need an interface for Networking. So really there should be some sort update, Worley Labs really needs to get their story straight. But oh yeah they only leave cryptic mesages on their website which they only update once or twice a year. Where as Newtek is in constant contact on a daily basis. I tend to trust the people I hear from more than those I do not, maybe I am strange?

I'm starting to find that something that cannont be rendered in one engine can be composited with another thing rendered in another engine if you have the right tools. Is this correct in theory?? Anyone? It sounds like a hack but really these days you can treat a lot of scenes like an animated photoshop. Sure, this doesn't include radiosity but as far as shadows and hair go . . .

jayroth
07-18-2006, 11:24 AM
Just to chime in with a couple of thoughts here:

From the beginning of the LightWave 9 development process, we made it quite clear that we would not be able to get to everything in the first release. We concentrated on core rendering technologies (the KD tree implementation, which forms a modern platform for us to revisit GI solutions, and other things); we rebuilt the open GL geometry engine in Layout, and will migrate it to Modeler; we added new features and entities to Modeler (still have more work to do there); added a completely new paradigm for handling materials (the node editor, which we purchased, and brought Antti, its creator, on board as a full team member -- and the technology has grown considerably since then); added new shading models, something most people thought could not be done; added new, physically correct cameras, new subdivision surfaces, and render-time sub-pixel displacements from the TLU now LightWavers Jarno and Jonas. We have a healthy mix of acquired/assimilated technologies and technogolies developed by the team that was internal as of last year (but note they are all team members now!) And, we have made significant improvements to the SDK, working with 3rd parties in the process (and will continue to do so.)

We focused on these features, in addition to the stability issues, because we knew that these areas affected the broadest section of our user base, and benefitted virtually everyone. Also, some technologies needed to go in first, such as the KD tree, before others, such as GI, could be addressed. Given the results, I would do it again this way in a heartbeat.

Like all of you, all of us would like nothing less than to have all of the features everyone wants in the build today. But the reality is: it will take time. Some of you will be happy with LightWave v9; some of you won't be. In some cases, that will be due to a feature that we haven't gotten to you yet.

As we go, you will see some small updates, and some larger updates. These updates may contain the features you are looking for, while others can appear in later updates.

The bottom line is: we are building the best LightWave that you have ever seen. Some think we are there now, others do not. For me, we have a ways to go, but we have given you a clear vision about that. With LightWave v9, we have shown you how we intend to get things done, and the quality of work that results from our efforts. We all want the same thing: a better LightWave. And, most of us (NewTek and you) are in agreement as to what it takes to get there.

Now, go and enjoy LightWave v9 while we get back to work :)

Best,

Jay Roth

tyrot
07-18-2006, 11:29 AM
I tend to trust the people I hear from more than those I do not, maybe I am strange?

dear ivan

you are completely normal...Newtek is a great company in terms of communication with users .

Mr Plant wrote his first post in this thread around 6 am if i remember correctly, that means alot for me. That evokes confidence in me.

And i believe Jay has something about GI and Radiosity. They will not leave Lightwave's GI as it is. Relying on FPrime?. Worley, we dont know what he thinks or do.. and he may want to go and develop his tools for MAXers or others. ANd at the same time he has that Kayser Soze style, with his one drop of words he caused a tsunami overhere...

So probably NT is watching it and building a Plan B...

that plan B is "Lightwave should have its own updated previewer and fast radiosity renderer."

_breaking news..Jay has posted_

BEST

jasonwestmas
07-18-2006, 11:54 AM
So probably NT is watching it and building a Plan B...

that plan B is "Lightwave should have its own updated previewer and fast radiosity renderer."

_breaking news..Jay has posted_

BEST

Based on what the NT admin is saying I feel like lightwave will become even more independantly powerful out of the box. I do hope a new viper and GI is on the table!! Woot!

Cageman
07-18-2006, 12:03 PM
I'm starting to find that something that cannont be rendered in one engine can be composited with another thing rendered in another engine if you have the right tools. Is this correct in theory?? Anyone? It sounds like a hack but really these days you can treat a lot of scenes like an animated photoshop. Sure, this doesn't include radiosity but as far as shadows and hair go . . .

Compositing is certanly something that is overloked alot. I've seen some cool stuff demoing interaction between Maya and LightWave where you use the TCP/IP ports to send data to/from LW/Maya (no saving/loading). One of those videos showed a render composite, where half the video was rendered in LW, half rendered in Maya. The render was basic, no fancy texturing, but the _geometry_ matched.

I bet the match between FPrime/KRay/LightWave is the same. Use KRay/FPrime to render your GI-scene, render out motionvectors and depth with LW-native, composite with Fuison/AE/Shake... for motionvectors, use RealSmart Motionblur...

Above all.. editing things in post is waaay faster than anything you can render... really...

Panikos
07-18-2006, 12:08 PM
We will see the 9.x cycle

jasonwestmas
07-18-2006, 12:08 PM
Makes perfect sense to me Cageman. Thanks for the insight!

Ivan D. Young
07-18-2006, 12:08 PM
Thank you Jay for chiming in. I look forward to the changes Newtek and team are making and I am very happy with the progress so far.
The list of new plugins that are finding their way into LW are really impressive and I think it is a testament to the work Newtek has done. I wish people would relax and wait this will work it's way out. As for Worley labs I hope this situation can get fixed. I am looking forward to seeeing Volumedic, Dynamite, and Sysflex at Siggraph, maybe more tools who knows?

Ivan D. Young
07-18-2006, 12:13 PM
Why does statements from newtek get hate and and silence form Worley gets praise. I mean his FPrime tool is a Sasquatch tool that does not work, it got repackaged as a previewer and now is universally praised. It does not even do what it was supposed to do! If newtek did this, they would get flamed to death. Fprime ended up doing something that it was not desgined to do, that was luck.

Panikos
07-18-2006, 12:14 PM
I bet the match between FPrime/KRay/LightWave is the same.

It is not.
MotionBlur is different.
Also non-poly elements, (see Sasquatch, Volumetric Lights, HVoxels, any Volumetrics) do not generate motionvectors.
If you add DOF on top of the equation, Cageman, sorry you lost, dont bet.

jasonwestmas
07-18-2006, 12:16 PM
awe Panikos, you smashed all my dreams to pieces ;) lol

3DBob
07-18-2006, 12:36 PM
Pavlov,

Maxwell has to re-calculate every frame - but with multilight it caches each lights GI information seperately so you can play around with the lights of a single frame *post render* in realtime - Sort of the way G2 renders out each pass and allows you to vary each realtime. MW does have the advantage over FP in that you can render across multiple machines both individual and multiple frames - though you are limited to 4 CPU cores per licence.

I would love to see Worley impliment a MW like "multilight" functionality into FP - It is a superb feature and one I believe he could impliment without any updates to LW SDK.

Kray has, in my opinion, the best combination of Arch Vis output quality to speed ( when you now how to tweak it). It also has the best baking and caching I have seen.

Sadly LW GI cannot compete on quality or speed variably with these 3 solutions - however, it beats them hands down in terms of flexibility - it can render everything (moot point). I am glad to see that there is the will and the foundation to achieve the long standing NT aim to improve LW GI (thanks Jay for the confidence booster) - But without FP like previewing - there will always be a need to allow FP to do more. I don't think NT could achieve the best in class performance of FP without integrating FP.

The great thing is that in the past Two Years The four solutions above have given LW users access to the best quality (MW), the fastest (FP/KRay) and the most flexible (LW). And these external solutions are the best available to anyone using anything. These are good times to be a pixel pusher.

Personally I think if possible NT should integrate Grzegorz Tanskis' very flexible KRay GI if possible - I'd pay a reasonable upgrade fee for that at maybe 9.5? It would boost his applications reach from 10s / 100s to many thousands and give us a top notch GI solution - Ideally keeping him on programming (not to mention boosting his account balance). Not sure he would want to move from the beautiful Slovak Republic though....

3DBob

tyrot
07-18-2006, 01:22 PM
Pavlov,
Personally I think if possible NT should integrate Grzegorz Tanskis' very flexible KRay GI if possible - I'd pay a reasonable upgrade fee for that at maybe 9.5? It would boost his applications reach from 10s / 100s to many thousands and give us a top notch GI solution - Ideally keeping him on programming (not to mention boosting his account balance). Not sure he would want to move from the beautiful Slovak Republic though....

3DBob

dear 3dbob

very good idea indeed. He would be a great member for NT. I dont think he has Worley's symptoms.
Think about Upgraded Viper + KRAY (fully implemented)
Enough for creating wonders...

BEST

(MR.KRAY also very welcomed to this thread and share his ideas about SDKs and beyond......)

Cageman
07-18-2006, 01:23 PM
It is not.
MotionBlur is different.
Also non-poly elements, (see Sasquatch, Volumetric Lights, HVoxels, any Volumetrics) do not generate motionvectors.
If you add DOF on top of the equation, Cageman, sorry you lost, dont bet.

You don't render ANYTHING with DOF/Motionblur! You render motionblur for the geometry with LW-native, using motionvectors. This, of course, doesn't allow you to have Volumetric light, Sas or HVoxels, but you can easily render Volumetric, Sas and HVoxels in a different pass, and still use FPrime for the geometry..GI/whatever you can throw at it (exept the geometry that use Sas). Then, when you've got your geometry inside post and done motionblur/DOF you go to LW and load the Volumetric/HVoxel/Sas stuff and do an oldschool DOF/MBlur match, and render those elements. This isn't rocket sience..

How many here have matched DOF and motionblur to match video/film footage inside LW, using LW:s native DOF and Mblur? If you managed that, you can manage to comp the things I just mentioned.

You can do alot of stuff doing comp! Even if it isn't correct by laws of physics, it can look right. That's what it's all about.

Panikos
07-18-2006, 01:28 PM
Cageman, you are suggesting me to cross a distance of 1km by following a route of 50km

Cageman
07-18-2006, 02:05 PM
Cageman, you are suggesting me to cross a distance of 1km by following a route of 50km

In terms of using the best tool for what it does, then yes...

Otherwise, use LW-native, it supports it all stright away..

And then there are clients.. who wants a green barrel rather than a red. Being able to change the color in post instead of re-render the whole thing again is a time-saver. Especially in animation...

Earl
07-18-2006, 02:07 PM
Keep in mind guys, that NewTek has a substantially different development team now than in the past. Two of the guys came directly from Electric Image (considered to be one of the fastest renderers on the planet). I think we should let the new team try their hand at creating a new GI system before we give up on them. :goodluck:

Cageman
07-18-2006, 02:15 PM
Cageman, you are suggesting me to cross a distance of 1km by following a route of 50km

And, if GI is concerned, I would rather call my way of doing it a shortcut. ;)

Anyhow.. looking forward to see what the new team may come up with regarding GI.

Verlon
07-18-2006, 03:00 PM
Whew....what a read....and just since my last post.

As for rumors of amazing coders hiding out in the Texas desert, well....San Antonio isn't a desert (yet, Mr. President...but we know you're working on it).

In fact, Newtek is within walking distance of a Ferrari dealership!

Further, some of the lightwave team is offsite. After all, its 2006, and the product in question is mostly electronic.

As for integrating plugins, well... As I recall (perhaps you've also heard this one), several members of the LW team left a while back to go develop a competing product. This left Newtek in need of new programmers for Lightwave. At that point, why not hire people who were already familiar with the program and (as a bonus) integrate plugins that people kept saying should be integrated into Lightwave?

The looks like taking lemons and making lemonade to me.

Integrated, fully functional KRay? Oooh, me likes.

Newtek has already stated they do not want to defer the job of rendering to a third party, so I shouldn't be shocked to see a much improved viper sometime soon.

Anti-Distinctly
07-18-2006, 03:20 PM
[snip]...We concentrated on core rendering technologies (the KD tree implementation, which forms a modern platform for us to revisit GI solutions, and other things)...[snip]

Now you've done it :)
Let the speculation and expectations begin!

dballesg
07-18-2006, 05:46 PM
Hi,

I was reading all the thread with a lot of interest. In first place, I am working on a small studio where the last months have showed me HOW difficult is the choice of the right tool for certain things.

I do not why, but I trust Mr Jay Roth. Always I like to read his posts.
And since he is aboard, the communication looks more fluid between clients and Newtek.

But let me expose a REAL case studio, and my apologies for a long post for anyone that be bored reading it! i.e: Lightwolf, wake up! :)

But I am with Exception and Panikos, we need a new GI solution, our clients start to demanding it, and we invested on an small renderfarm to be able to use it. But not with the quality that has today.

WE DO NOT HAVE Fprime, even when my boss was shocked to the demo videos we saw on worleys page. In first place because when I showed it to him we upgraded LW 7, to 8 and got the free 9 upgrade, and then came Vue, LWCad (reallly useful) and he invested on the renderfarm and new workstations.

We delayed the bought of it because we thought would be many improvements when 9 arrives and FPrime it would be more useful and powerful. We were wrong and now I am REALLY happy we didn't bought it.

For a certain project we needed instancing for trees (and that is something that really hurts me personally that we do not have yet in Lightwave).

So we went for xStream and due that my boss career is in fine arts and animation, you can not imagine how perfeccionist is on the right sense with the colors, shadows and that. Mainly after struggle with Vue it is a good solution for easy and quick landscaping that produces good results.

I'be been trying to post as many bugs I founded in 9, as well as in xStream. Many of you posted many that I found before I could post them! :) And at today that project is finished but we can not render it.

Butterfly Net Render (our beautiful new render manager), hungs up when I try to force it to read the lws file with the xStream scene incorporated.

If I pass the lws with the xStream file apart, LWSN hungs up the nodes, because the scene takes 1.5Gb of memory and can not be handled by the 32 bits version of LWSN. xStream its still a 32 bits plugin. E-onsoftware is trying to do its best but they are involved with the Vue 6 Siggraph event, so xStream updates are slow.

After that with only ONE workstation I am managing to render the stills for the project. And every frame takes 6 hours with Montecarlo Radiosity from LW and xStream GI. At a resolution of 1024x768. If I tried biggers one, chrashes as well. And that is in a Dual Dual Core AMD Opteron 270 with 4Gb of RAM. So do not tell me about slow renders and bugs frustrations :)

Tomorrow I need to do the animation for a couple of logos and objects on a TV spot (deadline tomorrow night).

Thursday we recieve a project of an architectonic reconstruction, and the client wants radiosity, because he show us an arch renders made in MAX and Vray and he was really impressed.

We have started a 3D presentation for a congress, and after that a short film where my boss wants the best render quality available and MUST be finished by July next year. Film resolution.

For that short we will need a hair system, which one Sasquatch or Fiber Factory?. I used only Sas Lite, and for what I readed in the forums about Sasquatch full maybe it would not provide us the quality my boss wants and has on his mind.

And here is my dilemma, Worley said that he need new hooks on the SDK (more than the actual ones). Jay say that they are doing its best to implement them and more things, the problem here is really THE TIME. And both of them need it, one to put the hooks and the other to create the updates to his plugins.

But the studios that are using all this soft have a little time compared to the time that takes develop a program, clean bugs and introduce new features on it (trust me I know, I developed a LOT of multimedia kiosks in the past).

But I must be realistic on my day job, now I do not look the tool anymore, because I love it, I got it because IT WORKS and allows me to satisfy my client that at the end is the one that pays us, so we can get a few bucks out there to buy new tools. But now looking them with the perspective that they will function.



We have a healthy mix of acquired/assimilated technologies and technogolies developed by the team that was internal as of last year (but note they are all team members now!)

I do not mind Newtek acquired/assimilate new technologies. By the Way Jay, you sounded a bit BORG on that phrase! :)

But I do not want to see that happens like in the past with the WONDERFUL Wavefilter set of plugins, that now it is a shade of what the original product was.

Careful Mr Worley, maybe you are going to be assimilated :) And why not? He has colaborated a lot in the past and now on internal parts of the core, If I remember well he made a few of the original procedurals? If I am wrong, please correct me. MAybe not assimilated, but integrated partially, so he can still playing with his personal powerful toys and at the same time helping a bit to Newtek .

And to finish I HOPE both Newtek, and Worley knows that our clients demand speed on the jobs and shorter deadlines, that is why we want speed from you, not because we would like to screw the dev teams with our features requests or frustrations when something doesn't work, because for some of us it is our day bread, and we see many times how our competiton using other series of products are sweeping us a few jobs.

And after all this story, now I am not going to recommend ANYTHING again to my boss where we can not have a functional demo and test it first. Or an Open Beta :)

And to my knowledge worley products doesn't have it right?

Maybe they are great, but their rate of update is really light years away from what I've seen in LightWave 9. Even when I started to discover in LW 9 a few annoyances that I want to post as soon as I have a free minute. Like some plugins not on the studio menus, and a few more.

I desire the best to both teams, they have great products, but maybe many big and small studios that like to use them (at least us are small), found themselves stucked and catched on the decision of still use our beloved tools or move forward and go for new ones if trying their demos of course, we see they work.

I would love still have couple of months to think about it and decide what we do. But I would really like that the words of Jay become a reality and we see a lot improvements / updates on that time.

I can not wait anymore, my clients doesn't wait, and we are at the same time Newtek's clients and some of you Worley clients.

Sorry for quote you twice Jay, if you ever come to Spain told me and I will pay it with an excellent wine and food! :)




Now, go and enjoy LightWave v9 while we get back to work :)

Best,

Jay Roth

My best regards,
David

jasonwestmas
07-18-2006, 06:03 PM
Sasquatch is indeed capable of photorealistic hair and foliage but this is not an easy thing to learn from scratch. There are a ton of settings in the full blown version and it takes a good deal of study to achieve the desired effects. I think of Sas as photoshop filters for hair/ foliage, it won't make your desired image automatically like Vue seems to do once in a while, that's for sure. Sas takes a ton of tweaking and then you can save your settings for another project once you are satisfied with that. Then there are blending and shadow issues that you have to compose as well. These things are completely possible to achieve with sasquatch and lightwave but it really is as time consuming as making a fine piece of art.

RedBull
07-18-2006, 06:15 PM
Just to chime in with a couple of thoughts here:

From the beginning of the LightWave 9 development process, we made it quite clear that we would not be able to get to everything in the first release. We concentrated on core rendering technologies (the KD tree implementation, which forms a modern platform for us to revisit GI solutions, and other things); we rebuilt the open GL geometry engine in Layout, and will migrate it to Modeler; we added new features and entities to Modeler (still have more work to do there); added a completely new paradigm for handling materials (the node editor, which we purchased, and brought Antti, its creator, on board as a full team member -- and the technology has grown considerably since then); added new shading models, something most people thought could not be done; added new, physically correct cameras, new subdivision surfaces, and render-time sub-pixel displacements from the TLU now LightWavers Jarno and Jonas. We have a healthy mix of acquired/assimilated technologies and technogolies developed by the team that was internal as of last year (but note they are all team members now!) And, we have made significant improvements to the SDK, working with 3rd parties in the process (and will continue to do so.)
I would for the most part agree totally with what you have written above.
I think for myself despite a few of the minor exclusions, or some perhaps slightly ill communication on some of the prementioned arguments. Yourself and the rest of the Newtek Development have improved signifigantly in many of the key areas i personally have identified as troublesome and important to the continued growth and adoption of LW. Well done!

For the first time seriously in a longtime (David Ikeda too, was picked up on the 8.x cycle) NT has started to buy the cow, instead of just the milk.
NT as you said, contracted Jarno and Jonas, Anntii and not just bolted the ACT tools or Nodal for example on. I believe these types of behind the scenes things are far more important to LW, than any single feature or addition in my own opinion. LW9 was a fairly good start at adding new abilities while keeping most of the compatibility. Jarno is a great inclusion for his tools and support to other developers and third parties developing tools has improved signifigantly as a result. And has personally helped myself 1finish a few of mine own plugins for LW. For the most part your message above i think you identified the most important innovations that NT have made more than LW itself are important for the LW9.x cycle and beyond.


The bottom line is: we are building the best LightWave that you have ever seen. Some think we are there now, others do not. For me, we have a ways to go, but we have given you a clear vision about that. With LightWave v9, we have shown you how we intend to get things done, and the quality of work that results from our efforts. We all want the same thing: a better LightWave. And, most of us (NewTek and you) are in agreement as to what it takes to get there.
Now, go and enjoy LightWave v9 while we get back to work :)
Best,
Jay Roth

The clear vision for the most part is true, NT has been more forthcoming with development, communication and public awareness and the open beta was a good move too. But it's plainly obvious on this particular Fprime/Nodal inclusion issue, this would of been a huge boon and boost to the release of what was already a good step forward for Lightwave and NT.

Perhaps even letting Beta members know FPrime and Nodal would not make a compatible release at the launch of LW9 as given a definate NO on the first release. For example if Newtek announced that te SDK improvements for Nodal were in design, but will be implented in a future 9.x update, this whole issue would of been a non-issue. Rather then users then reading it from the Worley website or Worley support on day one of LW9's advertising blitz,
NT could of avoided the any real negitive comments or impact, on an otherwise great launch for LW9.

If Jim Plant has to write a message to upset users at 6AM after a night of drinking after a great launch party, (my sympathies) I think you'll agree that it's Newtek who missed a great opportunity and nobody else in this instance.

Open communication has failed, and this is the ONLY real negative issue,
in comparison to all of the great steps forward that yourself and Newtek have made in recent months. Anyway, Congratulations to Newtek and to yourself for a great step forward in LW9's abilities, and i hope to see many more great steps to come. As i raised and discussed with a colleague the very same issues yesterday who also agreed with the majority of the comments in your first paragraph.

LW9 is not where i need/want it to be, but i know NT have indeed done a remarkable job with addressing and at least identifying some of the issues and have made real inroads to improving a lot of the past mistakes.

The addition of small workflow features, new abilities and improvements to the future expandibility and ideas of LW, combined with a newer enthusiastic team
who seem to be for the most part aware of the issues to make it better are all good news items for LW users and Newtek. I look forward to the future.

3DBob
07-18-2006, 06:21 PM
David,

If you want to test the best quality renderer - download the new Maxwel 1.1 demo.

If you want VRay quality - but blindingly fast rendering - Download the KRay renderer demo.

Both work VERY differently - But you could choose the tool for your job and meet any competition using any other 3d package for quality and/or speed. Indeed no one can top MW for quality - and we have access to it.

Maxwell comes with a 4 CPU Core licence ( that would max out on your dual dual core opteron)

Kray comes with a 5 Computer licence - so if all your machines had 4 cores - that would be 20 Cores - so not only can Kray render quickly - you can spread the load over a large renderfarm.

Fprime and Kray are so fast at GI that you can often churn out long sequences on a single workstation overnight. Fprime has the advantage that you can start doing compositing in after effects as soon as the first pass is done - you can also see errors very quickly in lighting and animation - so rendundant renders are vastly reduced. As the frames are refined - so is your final comp - really lovely.

Forget LW GI - I did 2 years ago.

3DBob

PS the hair on my avatar was done with the full sasquatch. Oh and I've just completed a job using FPrime that would have taken 10 times as long without it - and I was running it in 9.

Nemoid
07-19-2006, 12:29 AM
I think that during 9.x cycle we'll see alot of cool things added in Lw to enhance its power.
Newtek is doing the job, but it needs time, because they make major changes to the core to allow things happen.

This being said, what i hope is Newtek going seriously in the direction of
total integration of Modeler and Layout. this could happen with 10, or slightly later . but has to be done.
If you keep Modeler and Layout separated, this will turn to be a totally wrong choice in time.

The advantages of having a total integrated app against a separated one are clear and obvious.

Another thing is CA toolset and behaviour has to be addressed to give it more power and stability. rigging process too, can be enhanced and streamlined.

Exception
07-19-2006, 02:39 AM
Open communication has failed, and this is the ONLY real negative issue,
in comparison to all of the great steps forward that yourself and Newtek have made in recent months.

Quoted for 110% agreement.

Cageman
07-19-2006, 03:15 AM
This being said, what i hope is Newtek going seriously in the direction of
total integration of Modeler and Layout. this could happen with 10, or slightly later . but has to be done.
If you keep Modeler and Layout separated, this will turn to be a totally wrong choice in time.

Amen!

But I want choice. Don't scrap modeler, keep it, but make sure that what you do in modeler can be done in Layout as well.

Nemoid
07-19-2006, 04:30 AM
on the contrary I'd say scrap it, but simply provide a UI that can show modeler and layout environment as they're now (animation + rigging+rendering etc /modelling )
its possible with a good and clean customizable UI.
I've lots of ideas for good Ui implementations.

However just look to XSI, C4D... no icons , but good and flexible UI.this is part of the work that has to be done.


another thing i'd add :
maybe modeler, with some good enhancements could be sold as a standalone modeler too. not sure only because on the market we have apps like
hexagon, silo, ect.

Exception
07-19-2006, 04:30 AM
This being said, what i hope is Newtek going seriously in the direction of
total integration of Modeler and Layout.

As much as we all agree about GI, I think this a debatable point, and thus harder to implement so that everyone will be happy. I for one would dread the day Layout + modeler are one program, seriously and completely. I model while rendering, have two monitors, work in oen while the other is busy, have 3 layouts open and one modeler, and so forth.

But the team are making the necessary steps for both options, as far as I can see it, it has been said that the modeling and rendering core have been extracted from modeler and layout respectively, so both can use eachothers features. That has been done already and we're seeing the first stages of modeling in layout, which is indeed very welcome and shall prove to be very useful, I hope.

3DBob
07-19-2006, 04:32 AM
I'm with cageman - I have so many plug-ins in both parts of the app I dont know how i'd cope if they were truely one app - I have barely got a key combination left in either - maybe a mode switch would do it.

I have always loved the seperate modeler.

And I like running multiple instances of either - as I wish without having the memory burden of everything in one. Most apps do not allow multiple instances.

But lets keep this thread on topic - it is about preview rendering and GI essentially and opening the SDK.

3DBob

dballesg
07-19-2006, 04:49 AM
Hi to all,

Thanks to your pointers 3D Bob. In fact I was trying to find solutions to all this caveats you mention, but looks that our path it is still quite dark in this areas and it is going to be it so for a quite long time :(

Sometimes I try to explain things in english on a lengthy way, because it is not my native language. thinking I left everything clear, but I think I confuse more! :) My fault and my apologies.

But my post was trying to show that a few people here, is missing jobs, or seeing projects that could be normally done on better time frames, because MANY things has been left on the ink bottle from many time and not put in paper correctly from the first time.

And even when Jay has stated that they are working on it, I would loved to hear his personal opinion, or he can PM it to me if he thigs it is more appropiate.

And it is a shame, because made that users like me start to think on alternatives even when we love newtek products, support and thing the dev team is doing an excellent job, but the sad true is that times run from everyone, and for what I am seeing I am starting to afraid LightWave and even combined with Worley products or other thir party ones it is not going to be capable of manage our next projects. Even when we would love and like to do it, it is the tool that everyone here in the studio controls.

So for me going for other tools, mean expend time learning, when I would prefer to expend that time learning the tools that we need now, but correctly implemented in Lightwave.

In fact i was expecting that more users post their real experiencies and say wich other complements choose to LighWave and why, so the dev team can take note once for all and provide the solutions at their best timeframe.

But I still think the development time cycle, it is going to be much longer than we would expect. And this doesn't have an easy solution.

Best regards,
David

Nemoid
07-19-2006, 06:15 AM
As much as we all agree about GI, I think this a debatable point, and thus harder to implement so that everyone will be happy. I for one would dread the day Layout + modeler are one program, seriously and completely. I model while rendering, have two monitors, work in oen while the other is busy, have 3 layouts open and one modeler, and so forth.

But the team are making the necessary steps for both options, as far as I can see it, it has been said that the modeling and rendering core have been extracted from modeler and layout respectively, so both can use eachothers features. That has been done already and we're seeing the first stages of modeling in layout, which is indeed very welcome and shall prove to be very useful, I hope.

I'm not saying that Newtek is doing wrong or something.

i do know that modelling and rendering core are now accessiblle to both apps, but i do hope this evolution will go in the right direction that is a modern environment at the base of the app, and the possibility to mix up tools if you want/need.
Its not So difficult to make everyone happy. flexibility and complete UI customizability are the keywords for that.

As for working like you do, rendering could be allowed to work in background and also, tools could be loaded on user preference, so u could just load parts of the program in several instances and open them all, and live happy however.

about GI and SDK : i completely agree with you guys. in particular, SDK has to be extended more and more to allow third party to build up great plus. this is in the works so i'm not that worried. its a question of time.

KevinL
07-19-2006, 12:09 PM
Actually not a poll, just curious.

How many here in this discussion are producing graphics/video/illustration/etc for a living, how many for pleasure, how many are coders, technologists....

etc.

"Nodes made my head hurt, :eek: Then I read some of the documentation and now I know how slow I am. :chicken: IFW2 helped me get a job out and their video made me feel a little more clued in :thumbsup: and now I'm confident that I know less than I thought I did. :question: Meanwhile I received a check for a job just completed so it is all good :deal: (for a while)" The plight of a working "little guy"

Have fun, wherever the playground!
Kevin

Ambival
07-19-2006, 12:31 PM
Just to add a few cents into the mix. I've worked for 21 years in software development in many different areas and have been responsible for infrastructure as well as developing with and for third-party SDKs. Coming from that perspective, I'd like to point out a few things:

1. Software development between first and third-party people and SDK-based collaborative efforts are almost ALWAYS iterative. In other words, feature creep, discovery and other phases of development always mean that both sides are constantly playing catch-up.

Example:

NT: "We have a spiffy new nodal feature."
WL: "I'd like to support that."
NT: "Here's what we can give you."
WL: "Neat! Nice structures and so easy to use too!"
(a week later)
WL: "I need some more data to make this work like I want."
NT: "We can do that. But what are you trying to accomplish?"

(weeks and weeks pass as end-users grow more and more angry)

This is just the nature of the beast.

2. Neither company is conspiring to hide their evil motives from anyone. They're not trying to deny you satisfaction with their products. They want to sell more of them and to have more people come back and buy it again. Just chill and everything will be fine before you know it.

Exception? Beer please.

Exception
07-19-2006, 04:35 PM
Kevin: Living, study and fun!

Tesselator
07-19-2006, 04:57 PM
ARE NODES AVAILABLE THROUGH THE SDK IN 9.0?
IF NOT, ARE THEY PLANNED FOR 9.X?
CAN WE HAVE CONFIRMATION FOR WHAT WORLEY SAID ON HIS SITE?



I am not NewTek and I don't speak for them but I know
the SDK very well and I can answer this. The answers are:

YES!
More so in 9.x as things expand and,
You'll have to ask Steve.

I like totally what Jim had to say. It was exactly the way it is,
direct & to the point, and easily digestible. I don't know the
FPrime code so I can't comment on what it can and cannot do
nor why or what extra it may need. But I have to say I read
Worleys comments as meaning something completely different
from what so many are assuming they mean. I read it almost
exactly like this:

http://www.newtek.com/forums/showpost.php?p=410947&postcount=160

Why anyone would take it upon their selves to inject more meaning
than that is really beyond me. No one is lying here and to whittle
out projected meanings from flat statements is just too weird.

Tesselator
07-19-2006, 05:34 PM
Ambival,

That is amazing how well your intuition and expirience served you here!

Seriously... :right-on:

pooby
07-20-2006, 02:22 AM
I don't think either have done anything 'wrong' but, I have read many times over the last few months, people stating how they would be looking forward to using Fprime to get direct feedback on Nodal surfacing.
It was speculation that Fprime would get an update, around the release but there was so many speculating that , like rumours, it almost became an assumption. (a wrong one as it turns out)

I think though, that someone from Newtek must have picked up on these assumptions, and it would have been wise to mention that the Nodal/Fprime link wasn't necessarily going to happen from day one.

I think in the future it's better to nip any speculation in the bud if you know disappointment will follow.

colkai
07-20-2006, 04:03 AM
Actually not a poll, just curious.

How many here in this discussion are producing graphics/video/illustration/etc for a living, how many for pleasure, how many are coders, technologists....


I do graphics for fun, I code a bit for fun, but coding is my main job, has been for 25+ years. Always been a tech engineer / coder, always knew I wanted to be one. Of course these days, I'm counting the years until I no longer have to be one :p

colkai
07-20-2006, 04:05 AM
I think though, that someone from Newtek must have picked up on these assumptions, and it would have been wise to mention that the Nodal/Fprime link wasn't necessarily going to happen from day one.

I think in the future it's better to nip any speculation in the bud if you know disappointment will follow.

Aye, I'm inclined to agree, but you just know, folks would then use that to do the old, "well it SHOULD be in from day one" :p ;)

Hehe, I want patience and i want it right now. :)

Anti-Distinctly
07-20-2006, 04:28 AM
Actually not a poll, just curious.

How many here in this discussion are producing graphics/video/illustration/etc for a living, how many for pleasure, how many are coders, technologists....


Not for a living, but considering how much of my spare time is absorbed by this - pretty much all of it, except girlfriend time, but even that has been pushed back due to my lightwaving. Not a good thing - I definately want this as a career. So for me, it's for pleasure, but it is a means to an end.

3DBob
07-20-2006, 04:35 AM
I have been doing it for a living for 13 years 12 with lightwave since Amiga Toaster.

3DBob

beverins
07-20-2006, 12:39 PM
Nodal needs Fprime to be useful to me, and Frime needs nodal to be useful to me. What's a guy to do?

Bake the texture?

Panikos
07-20-2006, 02:34 PM
It's only a fraction of the stuff that's doable with nodal, that you can actually bake. There's no baking sss, anisotropy (especially in animation) displacement etc. etc.

Neverko, fortunately they are some experienced people like you in these forums, to put things into place, otherwise darkness would dominate.

Some effects are subject to camera angle.

Additionally, the puprose of having FPrime is tweak and see not bake and see.

Anti-Distinctly
07-20-2006, 03:00 PM
...Additionally, the puprose of having FPrime is tweak and see not bake and see.

Yes, FPrime is all about tweaking. I still using it (I'm using it now :)) to tweak the lighting in my scene. I can't see my lovely nodal texture I've created. But hey, I still find it useful.

Is anyone on the worley forum mailing list thingy? I have got wind of some information. I assume I'm allowed to post it unless people tell me otherwise...

Wickster
07-20-2006, 03:27 PM
Ah go ahead and post it...might actually sell more copies of FPrime if the info you have is good...or maybe not. dunno. heheh. :D

like other i'm in the verge of purchasing fprime but waiting just a little bit more...

Anti-Distinctly
07-20-2006, 04:13 PM
OK, a chap on the mailing list contacted Worley labs, they contacted him & he pu it on the mailing list.

"The LW 9 SDK is not as complete as some people at NewTek thought it was.
And that created a lot of miscommunication inside of NewTek.

The current SDK design isn't able to handle the demands of FPrime's
interactive rendering approach .But the good news is there's still work
going on in NewTek to get things working, so some kind of Nodal support is
very likely to happen. Mr Worley will probably make a public follow up
announcement soon once the issues are hashed out. I probably shouldn't say
any more, but things aren't nearly as bleak as some people are claiming."

So its pretty much what people thought. Nothing malicious, a bit of a communication mishap though, but it's being addressed. Lovely.

Cageman
07-20-2006, 04:24 PM
OK, a chap on the mailing list contacted Worley labs, they contacted him & he pu it on the mailing list.

"The LW 9 SDK is not as complete as some people at NewTek thought it was.
And that created a lot of miscommunication inside of NewTek.

The current SDK design isn't able to handle the demands of FPrime's
interactive rendering approach .But the good news is there's still work
going on in NewTek to get things working, so some kind of Nodal support is
very likely to happen. Mr Worley will probably make a public follow up
announcement soon once the issues are hashed out. I probably shouldn't say
any more, but things aren't nearly as bleak as some people are claiming."

So its pretty much what people thought. Nothing malicious, a bit of a communication mishap though, but it's being addressed. Lovely.

Funny... no, really.. I mean.. all those people that were throwing rocks and mud at NT, for no clear reason... and now this... :)

Well, good news to all FPrime addicts out there. :thumbsup:

Gregg "T.Rex"
07-20-2006, 05:22 PM
Funny...

I always had the feeling that FPrime is an external renderer that imitates Lightwave's renderer so close, that one could not distinguish the difference; and doing that so fast, that we could have a near real time preview of the final render while tweaking...

If this theory is right, then Worley have to code a new FPrime, imitating every aspect Nodal have to offer, do so in real time for preview tweaking and making sure that resulting render would be identical to a F9 render. How hard would that be??:argue: :tsktsk: :stop: :dito:

Then again, i'm no programmer and probably i'm talking bananas here...

Gregg

Panikos
07-20-2006, 05:42 PM
FPrime its not identical in some aspects

Radiosity is a different algorithm, FPrime is using Metropolitan.
FPrime allows DOF in reflections and through Refractions, something that LW does not.
Also, MotionBlur and FPrime is using 2.5D calculations.

Its obvious that if you have two small equations and one of the parameters is different, the two results wont be the same.

Imagine having raytracing & radiosity maths
I was watching once a seminar by Pixar about Renderman plugin for Maya.
We saw two renderings for comparison, almost the same.
I told them "they are different", I was told that the falloff rates cant be duplicated exactly. They eyeballed it.

So, FPrime does duplicate LW in a large degree but it has some improvements

jameswillmott
07-20-2006, 06:08 PM
I've been thinking about how tricky getting Fprime to reads nodes correctly is going to be, while still maintaining it's speed.

If you consider all surfaces to be simple Lambertian, you have no problem. But with Nodes you have OrenNayar surfaces, fuzzy reflections, SSS etc...

Now, when Fprime starts up it duplicates Layout's geometry in memory so it can raytrace it, since until you hit the F9/F10 button LW has nothing to raytrace.



Lets say Fprime sends out a ray and it hits a surface with nodal SSS attached.

The SSS node cannot perform it's own raytracing because it isn't being evaluated during an F9/F10 render, and the node has not been programmed to hook into Fprime's raytracing functions. How on earth is the node going to be able to be evaluated correctly?

Things such as basic colour should be fairly easy to implement, but implementing shaders correctly is going to be a tall order.

It seems to me that this is not a trivial task for either Worley or NT to implement. I'm not privy to the code so I don't know, but it seems reasonable.

3DBob
07-20-2006, 06:30 PM
Well all I can say is G2 has OrenNayar and SSS and it works realtime with FP.

3DBob

Lightwolf
07-21-2006, 01:39 AM
The SSS node cannot perform it's own raytracing because it isn't being evaluated during an F9/F10 render, and the node has not been programmed to hook into Fprime's raytracing functions. How on earth is the node going to be able to be evaluated correctly?
No :D
LW is not raytracing in this case though. The SDK is designed in a way that allows FPrime to substitute the raytracing functions used by the nodes with FPrime specific raytracing... per evaluation call of a node.
The node won't see the difference, except that raytracing may be a lot faster.

As far as procedural textures (and, when implemented, nodes) are concerned, FPrime is almost invisible to them.

The trickier parts are handling the fact that the node graph can be in constant change due to the user editing it (connecting/removing inputs). I'M also not quite sure yet on the speed difference of the classic layered system vs. nodal shading, which in some cases seems to be a lot slower.

Cheers,
Mike

Anti-Distinctly
07-21-2006, 01:48 AM
FPrime its not identical in some aspects

Radiosity is a different algorithm, FPrime is using Metropolitan.
FPrime allows DOF in reflections and through Refractions, something that LW does not.
Also, MotionBlur and FPrime is using 2.5D calculations.
...[snip]

Hi Panikos :)
RE: DOF in reflections.
There was a thread about this somewhere I think, can't seem to find it at the moment. It seems that the new cameras do perform this properly now. i.e. the virtual image of objects reflected in a mirror are treated as though they were that far away in the DOF calculations. So the mirrror may be in focus, but that doesn't mean the reflected objects will be :)

You say FPrime is using Metropolitan - Is this published or is Steve logically keeping this close to his chest?

Panikos
07-21-2006, 02:09 AM
From the Art of Noise Document:
http://www.worley.com/fprime_art_of_noise.html

FPrime uses a variety of internal algorithms to reduce noise, with fancy names of "Metropolis Monte Carlo" in FPrime 1.0 or "Cascaded Metropolis" in FPrime 1.5.

Sorry about the confusion, Metropolis, Metropolitan, is all about gambling :)

Anti-Distinctly
07-21-2006, 03:30 AM
...Sorry about the confusion, Metropolis, Metropolitan, is all about gambling :)

lol, no problem :)
I've read that when I first got FPrime, so yeah, there is no 'paper' on his method with equations and such. Obviously, he doesn't want to give away his trade secrets.

Exception
07-21-2006, 05:40 AM
Yes there is...
http://www.loc.gov/catdir/toc/fy0605/2004059038.html

Panikos
07-21-2006, 09:31 AM
If I had the option to pay the same money for

- LW9 upgrade in its current form
or
- a LW9 that would include nothing but 100% FPrime convergence,

I would have paid 10x the price for the second.
:grumpy:

I dont imply that new Cameras or New displacement, Nodes or the rest are of no value.
But its not my fault if LW follows the competition with a long lag. Its Newtek role to accelerate and catch up, (if it is possible)

**** :(

Bog
07-21-2006, 09:45 AM
FPrime allows DOF in reflections and through Refractions, something that LW does not.

http://www.newtek.com/forums/showthread.php?t=53620&highlight=field

Woo and indeed Yay for the optically accurate DoF.

Celshader
07-21-2006, 10:38 AM
If I had the option to pay the same money for

- LW9 upgrade in its current form
or
- a LW9 that would include nothing but 100% FPrime convergence,

I would have paid 10x the price for the second.

I wish I had $4000 to drop on 3D software. You're a lucky, lucky man. :)

Since you have $4000 that you're already willing to invest in faster rendering, though, consider investing that $4000 in a quad-core Opteron machine. That way you'll have even faster LW9.0 renders until FPrime gets a 9.x-specific update.