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View Full Version : Newtek, we NEED an answer



kfiram
07-15-2006, 01:34 PM
Worley says:
"Newtek has a design for a possible future extension to LightWave's SDK to allow FPrime to preview and render Node surface effects, but that system is not currently in LW 9"...

I want to hear it loud and clear from Newtek's mouth:
WILL FPRIME BE ABLE TO SEE SHADERS DURING THE 9 CYCLE ???

I don't mind waiting (well, I do, but never mind). I just want to know.
I've waited years for 9, I can wait a bit longer.
I just want to know what a "possible future extension" means.
If it's "possible", is it also "possible" that it won't happen?

Mind you, this is contrary to anything Newtek said in the past year.
We were promised Nodes in FPrime since Day One.
If there's a possibility this won't happen, we have every right to know!


P.S.
And please, don't even start with the "it's a third party product" argument. It's a little to late for that. Your previous statements made it very clear that you are aware of its importance. You specifically devoted two entire paragraphs for it on your FAQ. You can't suddenly ignore it.

ShawnStovall
07-15-2006, 01:46 PM
Worley says:
"Newtek has a design for a possible future extension to LightWave's SDK to allow FPrime to preview and render Node surface effects, but that system is not currently in LW 9"...

I want to hear it loud and clear from Newtek's mouth:
WILL FPRIME BE ABLE TO SEE SHADERS DURING THE 9 CYCLE ???

I don't mind waiting (well, I do, but never mind). I just want to know.
I've waited years for 9, I can wait a bit longer.
I just want to know what a "possible future extension" means.
If it's "possible", is it also "possible" that it won't happen?

Mind you, this is contrary to anything Newtek said in the past year.
We were promised Nodes in FPrime since Day One.
If there's a possibility this won't happen, we have every right to know!


P.S.
And please, don't even start with the "it's a third party product" argument. It's a little to late for that. Your previous statements made it very clear that you are aware of its importance. You specifically devoted two entire paragraphs for it on your FAQ. You can't suddenly ignore it.

:agree: :agree:

Beaker
07-15-2006, 02:48 PM
Did NewTek ever promise that the necessary code would be in place for 9.0?

cagey5
07-15-2006, 03:16 PM
http://forums.cgsociety.org/showpost.php?p=3241866&postcount=80

archiea
07-15-2006, 03:20 PM
as well as this...

http://forums.cgsociety.org/showpost.php?p=3233814&postcount=17


in the post, this statment was quoted from the LW 9 FAQ at the time:

http://www.newtek.com/lightwave/lw9_features.php

Quote:
Full SDK Support for third parties to create nodes (including shading models) and for third party renderers to interface with / query nodal shaders.


This statement not longer exist in the current FAQ, so it appears to have changed. this is perhaps why there has been such an uproar. One can even say that Nodal shaders in Fprime was expected, and then not deliverd.

This is a lesson learned: Don't part with cash until the FINAL product is delivered.

kfiram
07-15-2006, 03:21 PM
Did NewTek ever promise that the necessary code would be in place for 9.0?

As a matter of fact, they said (on numerous occasions) it's already there!
But I'm not even talking about 9.0, I'm asking about 9.x...

Beaker
07-15-2006, 03:29 PM
I guess you could look at this in a number of ways then.

Things have changed in the last five months since that was posted that have kept it from happening in 9.0.

Maybe parts of it were implemented, but Worley feels more changes are needed to warrant a new version of FPrime.

One side or the other's telling the truth, and a lot of people are immediately assuming it's not NewTek.

Based on the changes I've seen in the program, and seeing the nature of software development here and elsewhere, my guess would be the first. I don't need it in my work, but I'd guess NewTek's not going to cutoff the number of people using it unless they've got a better product of their own.

archiea
07-15-2006, 03:31 PM
well they should have said something up front, instead of pushing the preorder on people with the original statement.

Beaker
07-15-2006, 03:35 PM
In your life things don't change over that large a period of time?

prospector
07-15-2006, 03:43 PM
I don't remember them 'pushing' it.

And it IS a 3rd party plug-in...it's not up to Newtek to modify thier program for every 3rd party code writer. If Newteks renderer handles everything in LW then it behooves others to use the same hooks. If they can't then that only means thier 3rd party piece doesn't work as good as Newteks way.

It's not rocket science

Exception
07-15-2006, 03:56 PM
Prospector, that is very inaccurate.
If the hooks are not there, 3rd party cannot access it, no matter how easy you think it is. A native render engine and a plugin are not on the same level.

Added to that, if Fprime doesn't render it, I'm not using it. Newtek clearly stated they were working for 9 to specifically increase Fprime's access to parts of the program, and they used it partially as an excuse as to why radiosity was not addressed. Now it turns out someone said something that was off from the truth and look at the outrage! People are upset, disappointed, disillusioned. That is not normal. That happens when someone does something that clearly doesn't feel right. And that's the case. Since NEwtek made the stupid decision to release 9 on friday, and worley immediately responded, the emotions can wreak havoc over the weekend. Good job guys, well done. I'm sticking with 8.5. It's more stable anyway.

Celshader
07-15-2006, 04:10 PM
I'm sticking with 8.5. It's more stable anyway.

LW9.0 has proved more stable than LW8.5 in my experience, but then I'm handling massive amounts of RealFlow/scene data, not architecture work.

Kurtis
07-15-2006, 04:13 PM
I now that a lot of work has been done with Worley. I've seen a lot of messages going back and forth. I don't have an answer to give on the end nature of cross-functionality between LightWave v9 and FPrime, that would come from a level above mine, but I will correct one thing here.

LightWave v9 was not released on Friday. It was released on Thursday morning San Antonio time. Even in Europe, that's not Friday. Saying it was is very inaccurate. The decision to release when we did had nothing to do with covering something up or avoiding something, as has been suggested. We've been answering as many questions as we can since that time. Many of us have been doing so on what is suppose to be our own time, as I am now. This thread and the other thread on the subject were not started until after NewTek closed for the day yesterday and many of our people left for the LA event, more than a day after the release of LightWave v9.

Bog
07-15-2006, 04:27 PM
Oh come on guys. Worley Labs had access to the LW Open Beta before any of us. Chuck said they were working closely with Worley.

At this point, I'm still hoping it's a badly-worded release from Worley Labs. I really am. Even if it's not, it's not NewTek's problem. A render accelerator - for all it's usefulness - is a third party tool. NewTek just shipped the best update ever - and I say this as a user from the Amiga days.

This is not NewTek's problem. Even if it was, you should give them the weekend to crow on having shipped Nine, already. Y'buggers.

Kurtis
07-15-2006, 04:56 PM
Since there is already another thread on the subject of FPrime and LightWave v9 in this same forums section, I am going to close this thread. You are welcome to continue this discussion as part of the other thread.

Chuck
07-16-2006, 07:38 PM
as well as this...

http://forums.cgsociety.org/showpost.php?p=3233814&postcount=17


in the post, this statment was quoted from the LW 9 FAQ at the time:

http://www.newtek.com/lightwave/lw9_features.php

Quote:
Full SDK Support for third parties to create nodes (including shading models) and for third party renderers to interface with / query nodal shaders.


This statement not longer exist in the current FAQ, so it appears to have changed. this is perhaps why there has been such an uproar. One can even say that Nodal shaders in Fprime was expected, and then not deliverd.

This is a lesson learned: Don't part with cash until the FINAL product is delivered.


That statement was never in the FAQ, it was in the preliminary feature list, and it is most emphatically in the final feature list:

http://www.newtek.com/lightwave/highlights2.php#2

The amazing thing about this whole business is that the SDK for v9 is sitting right here:

http://www.newtek.com/lightwave/developer/LW90/lw9sdk-063006.zip

- publicly available, where anyone can go and review it. The SDK additions for the Node Editor are exactly as stated. Third parties can create nodes and third parties can interface with and query the node-based shaders and use the information in their plug-ins and applications. There is no secret here, and the answer is in plain sight for anybody actually interested, and has been for months, starting with the first Open Beta release and growing as we progressed. For those of you out there who are into programming and game for a challenge - how about diving in and showing the things you can do with what's in that Node SDK?