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3DBob
07-14-2006, 05:29 PM
No pressure Steve (not much, hehe) now that 9 is out, I don't suppose there is anything over at the Labs for us - we're dying to see if you've been cooking up something for SG....

New Sas perhaps?

FP that works with Nodal + Sas..... Go on, let us into your world.....

3DBob

Jeffers
07-14-2006, 06:05 PM
Your answer is at http://www.worley.com/

stevecullum
07-14-2006, 06:39 PM
Its a shame that node texturing is out of the Fprime loop for the now, but you could always use the surface baking camera to fix that ;)

To be honest though, hitting F9 is pretty quick now, even on big scenes so, I may stick it out!

Now I'm just wondering what else is keeping Worley so busy...

KillMe
07-14-2006, 06:53 PM
argh - newtek get that sdk fixed up so worley can link in fprime to it

Stooch
07-14-2006, 07:14 PM
hah good thing i held off buying fprime. although this is kind of sad. i hope they are working on a new hair solution though.

papou
07-14-2006, 07:22 PM
ouch. wasn't the news i was waiting for...

GregMalick
07-14-2006, 07:29 PM
nuts

UnCommonGrafx
07-14-2006, 07:36 PM
Bad news from Worley is good news.

;)

archiea
07-14-2006, 08:01 PM
"LW 9's SDK refinements have very little impact on existing LW plugins, so nearly all LW 8 tools will work in LW 9. All of our plugins, FPrime, Sasquatch, G2, Polk, and Taft, work in LightWave 9."

well, while true, this statement is disproportionate... Fprime works on all of LW 9 features that 8 had. One of the main reasons for upgrading to LW 9 is nodal materials editor.. Fprime not supporting that currently means you wither use LW 8.5, or use LW 9 as you did LW 8.5, or you use nodal shading in 9.0 and VIPR.

I'm curious.. how many of you would have paid for x.5 updates to have features now.. like LW 9.0's SDK being ready now for Fprime, or not pay for x.5 updates, but have to wait for staggered releases as we have now.... LW 9 out now, but plug-ins compatability being staggered.

stevecullum
07-14-2006, 08:02 PM
Bad news from Worley is good news.

That sounds promising.. I hope its something so cool, we forget that Fprime wasn't working so good with LW9 and hail the new plugin to beat all others!

And now back to reality... :)

RedBull
07-14-2006, 08:51 PM
Well at the risk of sounding blunt, that's just pathetic....

The responses from Chuck, and press releases from Jay which we have been told for the majority of the Beta period that they are working closely with Worley labs and 3rd party developers and this will be improved.
Yet, day one of release and Worley has already announced otherwise.
Once again we find ourselves with no improvements to allow tools like Fprime
to extend the capabilities of LW that NT have themselves managed to ignore.

"LW 9's SDK refinements have very little impact on existing LW plugins"

That's a nice way of saying "LW9 offered no extra cabailities to new plugins makers like myself to make use of"

"One of LW 9's new features is the Node Editor texturing system. Newtek has a design for a possible future extension to LightWave's SDK to allow FPrime to preview and render Node surface effects, but that system is not currently in LW 9."

Again, the biggest problem LW has it's the ability to share volumetrics, shader data and a host of other data. So LW9 added Nodal to allow new Nodal querey shaders to bypass the fact that older LW shaders will NEVER be compatible with Fprime.. And now the newer shaders are still not compatible through the SDK. (shakes head in disbelief) Band-Aid, cough, cough....

7months late, and still no connection to improve capabilites with the tools that make Lightwave stand above the rest. It's just so typical of NT.

Anyway i beleive you can kind of make Fprime and Nodal displacements work, but it's kind of finicky and tempremental at best.

RantMode: Off.

kfinla
07-14-2006, 09:11 PM
Well it's possible that the "very little impact on existing plugins" means things have been added to the SDK, but older features have remained intact not breaking things:)

As a LW8 owner who is still very much on the fence at upgrading, this is all very interesinting to watch. I own most of the worley plugins, so its nice when the worley site gets updated every 7 months or so, though i was hoping the news would involve sasquatch 2, or Frime 2.5 etc. ... guess ill go back to waiting and see If LW can lure me back again.

Panikos
07-14-2006, 09:20 PM
RedBull, I didnt know all these in advance, but I could easily predict them, or I almost predicted them.
Yes, call me stubborn a$$hole. A long period of promises, fullfilled in a way that doesnt satisfy the average user.
Newtek is "Naked"

Intuition
07-14-2006, 09:28 PM
Man, what a drag.

I am pretty happy with 9 but I must say that I was really hopng F-Prime would be the ticket to learning nodal alot faster since you'd have realtime updates. I've learned alot about nodal over the last few months but was really holding out on a f-prime release that would shorten that learning curve exponentially.

I guess the main reason I really wanted to use f-rpime with nodal (shading or displacement) is so I can save time adjusting things. Having the previewer in Modo 201 is similar to using f-prime in Lightwave. Only difference is that the modo previewer does handle SSS and all the other effects.

Currently F-Prime is really the only hope of Lightwave using radiosity in a two week production schedule. I thought, if I want to see nodal SSS with some anistropy rendered with GI, that F-Prime would be the way to go.

Well, heres to hoping that Worley and F-Prime will make that come true someday.

Otherwise I will cry like a little baby. :D

archiea
07-14-2006, 09:32 PM
I'm curious where this would go. I was really hoping that LW9 and worley releases would go hand in hand. In fact, I think much of the community expects it. while neither company is really required to oblidge, one would believe that it need not be said that its expected by the users. Newtek went so far to pretty much endorse Fprime at the last Siggy.

The 9 beta trial was a really big step in the right direction for NT.. and for the users. I was hoping that momentum would have persisted regarding LW's marriage with fprime. I'm sure as much was done as possible..

I think Lw is too much a project in progress sometimes. The fact that its core is under transition, how much commitment can one make to an SDK when the architecture is changing. Perhaps worley and NT are picking their battles. I would just prefer a more honest reason for the compatability issue than just the transparent PR that any LW user can see through. I like the honesty chuck gave us about the issues with Lw's GL display issues in the past. Perhaps the same can happen here.

archiea
07-14-2006, 09:36 PM
Man, what a drag.

I am pretty happy with 9 but I must say that I was really hopng F-Prime would be the ticket to learning nodal alot faster since you'd have realtime updates. I've learned alot about nodal over the last few months but was really holding out on a f-prime release that would shorten that learning curve exponentially.

I guess the main reason I really wanted to use f-rpime with nodal (shading or displacement) is so I can save time adjusting things. Having the previewer in Modo 201 is similar to using f-prime in Lightwave. Only difference is that the modo previewer does handle SSS and all the other effects.

Currently F-Prime is really the only hope of Lightwave using radiosity in a two week production schedule. I thought, if I want to see nodal SSS with some anistropy rendered with GI, that F-Prime would be the way to go.

Well, heres to hoping that Worley and F-Prime will make that come true someday.

Otherwise I will cry like a little baby. :D

So well put. thanks!

Newtek, functionality like this is what separates the men from the boys. So ther eis really no reason (other than technical) that Fprime doesn't take advantage of nodal editing. Infact, nodal editing makes Fprime a requirement. What would it take?

Earl
07-14-2006, 09:39 PM
This is a little disappointing to hear. I love the nodal shading system, and I'd like to convert over to that completely. But I also love FPrime. I shouldn't have to choose between those two.

I don't want to rag on NewTek, because they have worked their butt off with the development of v9. So... I'll remain hopeful that the changes under the hood that we keep hearing about will pay off and produce some results fast. I don't want to wait months and months. :bangwall:

Penforhire
07-14-2006, 09:40 PM
In terms of FPrime and everyone's expectations it does feel like a bust.

spec24
07-14-2006, 10:01 PM
Gotta chime in on this one. If for nothing more than to have Newtek hear our cries. No offense to Newtek, but Fprime was one of the best "upgrades" to LW to ever come along. I constantly use it - it makes LW fun and easy without having to sit my way through countless test renders. LW9 not talking to Fprime with the new nodal system is insane. And Worley talking about "may in the future" doesn't fill me with happy thoughts. There shouldnt' be any question about it unless Newtek is planning on scrapping/upgrading this legacy dinosaur they call Viper into something resemlbing a workable previewer. Like so many things in the past I don't see it happening.

MooseDog
07-14-2006, 10:08 PM
it doesn't feel like a bust, it is a bust :devil:

now granted, user expectations have no connection to their world of coding and i'm willing to grant nt that very easily. but they did mention specifically in their communications and roadmaps that they were working closely with worley. close enough to offer him nothing?

"bad news from worley is good news" :help: ...too intriguing and leading a statement for a mortal to understand:D

theo
07-14-2006, 11:15 PM
The lack of movement out of the Worley camp could be interpreted to mean just that...not much is going on there.

To interpret long-term non-movement as something positive appears to me to be a bit naive and wishful.

Or, the Lab IS working on something but since LW is still shaking out a lot of old dry bones they are probably going to sit tight for another year or so.

GregMalick
07-14-2006, 11:55 PM
Perhaps Poetry in Motion will be the next bright spot.

:boogiedow

taproot2
07-15-2006, 12:22 AM
F-prime makes LW unique. My Maya7 has nothing to compare to it. Anybody else have a 3D package that has anything comparable to F-prime? My guess is that worley will let LW9 settle into place for a few months, let newtek build up a 9.5 version that has what he needs to work with, and suprise us all with a nice and quite announcement about f-prime3.0. If f-prime only works as good as it has been, then its still a great plug-in. We shall see what we shall see.
taproot2

RedBull
07-15-2006, 01:23 AM
RedBull, I didnt know all these in advance, but I could easily predict them, or I almost predicted them.
Yes, call me stubborn a$$hole. A long period of promises, fullfilled in a way that doesnt satisfy the average user.
Newtek is "Naked"

Yeah it makes me feel totally stupid for believing in more promises from NT.
It totally puts at risk all the good vibes the new management has been trying to achieve, and it's efforts to depart from the old Newtek feel.
It just shows that NT is not listening to there userbase, and blowing more smoke up our crapholes.

I'm getting sick of defending LW's place to XSI converts, but you know NT don't make it easy sometimes. As mentioned elsewhere in this thread, FPrime offers LW users a level of technology that even years after it's introduction is still years in front of the competiton. NT should be capitalizing on what it brings to the LW arsenal.

I think with Siggraph only weeks away, a new version of FPrime with Nodal support demonstrating the volumetrics from dynamite 1.1, and Modeling with Edges Ngons and LWCAD2 would of looked mighty impressive on the Show floor to a bunch of Maya and XSI industry types.

Would of really showcased some of LW's potential.

A bunch of newley released plugins working with some of LW's favourite older ones showcasing LW9's developement and progress.

But instead the lack of this development, shows how many problems they had achieving any kind of improvements for SDK integration with 3rd parties instead.

Modo's Iview and Mental Ray's region tool are on the right track, to the Fprime method, and as mentioned when both of their SSS tools for example already work in the Iview and MR tools respecitvely, why should i wait around for more promises of 9.x.?

And it's not just this in particular, but the way in which these issues just keep coming up and never get resolved. I do often get the feeling i'm being flogged a dead horse.

Frustrating because we all know that if LW allowed us to use shaders with FPrime or Nodal, or Volumeterics plugins like Taiki or HD Instance, then there is very little on the planet that can currently do this as well as LW + Fprime could do it.

No other program has this realtime previewing and quick rendering system
that improved my lighting and surfacing workflow by 400%.
But it seems nobody at NT cares if LW has it either.

Seriously dumbfounded by yet another broken promise, on a day when i would like to be congratulating NT for a new release. (Is it ground hog day?)
Anyway i won't rant on about it again..... But yeah opportunity missed for NT.

Stooch
07-15-2006, 01:47 AM
yeah i would say that im glad i got modo, but modo is so slow with its iview. not even close to fprime. although all the render features are supported so thats good.

tyrot
07-15-2006, 01:57 AM
dear wavers

i dont get it.. It is like Worley is the main reason for every LW purchases. Or when Worley says with new SDK i cant do that ..it is all becoming NT fault.

I m waiting for PIM (he NEVER complains about SDK for some reason) or KRAY (new version can really satisfy your needs)

There will be other alternatives too, Fprime is not LW. It will be wise for Worley to catch Nodals because our train for Nodalia has already left the station. If he doesnt find a way to include nodals, noone consider to purchase Fprime 3. He should work more to catch those instead of announcing LW9 SDK didnt change the current position. Well may be SDK didnt change but LW9 has changed. And all plugin writers must find a way if they want to sell their plugins.

And i dont think he is the only principle on plugins or even LW SDK area. I recommend to wait for other plugin writers thoughts as well. What Mr.Kray is thinking or Enki thinking about LW 9. Let's make a fair judgement after hearing all.

BEST

digital verve
07-15-2006, 02:43 AM
Hopefully someone from Newtek will clarify the SDK development.

When I read worleys statement, I took it as nothing in the update will break current worley plugins. NOT that nothing has been done to the SDK, just that NODAL has not be opened up yet Remember, NODAL is not yet finished as yet to be added to Hypervoxels etc. So maybe only until then, can they have the stable NODAL hooks for 3rd party developers released.

I upgraded LW 9 for LW and Newtek have delivered beyond my expectations (which were quite low before because of LW 8).

To be honest I don't understand this anger. Newtek have delivered the 1st decent release for many years and some of you just like ignoring all that for something that will probably get sorted out in time in one way or the other.

I've got my pitch fork ready :devil: , but I'm waiting for the next few updates before I decide to use it on :newtek: or not. :)

Matt
07-15-2006, 02:57 AM
So it begs the question ... What has Worley been doing for over a year?

pooby
07-15-2006, 03:35 AM
I suspect that there hasn't been much for Worley to do on the F-prime front until the SDK allows it.
I suspect Sasquatch 2 is in the works, as my questions regarding it have all gone unanswered, whereas they have been relatively open about F-prime.
I asked in 2004 about F-prime being able to Network render, and Worley said they hoped it would be in the next release depending on SDK enhancements. It's now 2 years later, and the SDK still won't allow it.
It makes me suspect that it's not worth holding your breath over a Nodal-compatible F-prime.
A shame, as the last few jobs I've done are rendered solely with it.

You can't just treat it like 'another plugin'. It's revolutionised lighting, texturing and rendering. It would feel like stepping back into the dark ages to go back to the old way of working blind.

It's annoying to have not known this news till 9 is released. It makes one have to make purchase decisions on assumptions trust and guesswork.
I have bought an upgrade I won't really use much for the foreseeable future because LW8 with F-prime is more valuable to me than 9's new features without.

KillMe
07-15-2006, 04:17 AM
well you can do everything in 9 that can be done in 8 so you may aswell use it but i agree - nodal surfacing jsut took a major hit

sure there are lots fo people myself included who thought fprime would make experimenting with nodal alot easier

newtek really should have opened up the sdk for nodal though - they knew fine thats what we were all hoping for and there is sucha high percentage of lw users who own fprime and to whom its an intergral part of there workflow and pipeline

disapointed

hope they do something about it in a point release soon

oDDity
07-15-2006, 04:18 AM
So it begs the question ... What has Worley been doing for over a year?
Yeah, we know he likes to keep tight-lipped, but in the light of this disappointment, it would be nice if he'd throw us a bone to hint at what can be expected in the next year.

DogBoy
07-15-2006, 04:24 AM
So it begs the question ... What has Worley been doing for over a year?

I agree. If NT have been working wi' Worley it strikes me it takes two to tango. This post from Steve reflects as badly on him as it does on NT.

The statement that everything is fine in Fprime land in regards to 9 is, quite frankly, cr*p. People have been complaining about it for some time, but he doesn't acknowledge that point.

What has he been doing for the last year? it looks from here it's been resting on his laurels

colkai
07-15-2006, 04:27 AM
Whoo, goota love the glass half empty brigade. :p

and I quote....

One of LW 9's new features is the Node Editor texturing system. Newtek has a design for a possible future extension to LightWave's SDK to allow FPrime to preview and render Node surface effects, but that system is not currently in LW 9.

Now everyone is saying, FPrime isn't taking advantage of Nodal so Newtek broke their promises?
Ex-squeeze me?
FPrime is Worleys product, even if he had the hooks right now, what makes you think he could implement said changes right now?

This is Worley, he makes Newtek seem like positive chatterboxes when it comes to releasing software.
Now yes, the hook is not yet in place, but re-read that first part again, they have designed such a feature, so why on earth people think they are not likely to implement said design as a deliberate act, is beyond me.

Newtek is not listening to it's userbase? Ohh fer gawds sake people, how many frikkin bugs did they squash as a result of doing that very thing?

It kills me that folks seem to think unless Newtek go out of their way to assist 3rd parties over their own development, (which people are ALREADY claiming is too slow), that Newtek are lying blah blah blah.

Next thing you know, it'll be Newteks fault that Autodesks FBX plugin doesn't pull in the data it could. :bangwall: :bangwall:

I know I'm gonna get lambasted for this post, but you know, I would have hoped the start of the backlash which always takes place following a release, would have at least been to do with an actual LW feature, not a proposed enhancement to the SDK to assist another product!

I'll say this again, assuming for one minute the Nodal hook was there, Worley is not going to release the product on the same day or even anywhere close, because first, he needs to develop it and test it and add in the features HE wants. So why all this venom over something you hoped might be in there?

:stumped:

Matt
07-15-2006, 04:33 AM
You can't just treat it like 'another plugin'. It's revolutionised lighting, texturing and rendering. It would feel like stepping back into the dark ages to go back to the old way of working blind

Totally agree, I see FPrime as PART of LW these days, I use it almost exclusivly for rendering, I will start using v9, but means I can't take advantage of nodal and other features as much as I would like.

FPrime made print resolution radiosity renders a reality for me, until radiosity gets a HUGE speed boost in v9/10 it's still out of reach without FPrime.

Matt
07-15-2006, 04:36 AM
Whoo, goota love the glass half empty brigade. :p

and I quote....


Now everyone is saying, FPrime isn't taking advantage of Nodal so Newtek broke their promises?
Ex-squeeze me?
FPrime is Worleys product, even if he had the hooks right now, what makes you think he could implement said changes right now?

This is Worley, he makes Newtek seem like positive chatterboxes when it comes to releasing software.
Now yes, the hook is not yet in place, but re-read that first part again, they have designed such a feature, so why on earth people think they are not likely to implement said design as a deliberate act, is beyond me.

Newtek is not listening to it's userbase? Ohh fer gawds sake people, how many frikkin bugs did they squash as a result of doing that very thing?

It kills me that folks seem to think unless Newtek go out of their way to assist 3rd parties over their own development, (which people are ALREADY claiming is too slow), that Newtek are lying blah blah blah.

Next thing you know, it'll be Newteks fault that Autodesks FBX plugin doesn't pull in the data it could. :bangwall: :bangwall:

I know I'm gonna get lambasted for this post, but you know, I would have hoped the start of the backlash which always takes place following a release, would have at least been to do with an actual LW feature, not a proposed enhancement to the SDK to assist another product!

I'll say this again, assuming for one minute the Nodal hook was there, Worley is not going to release the product on the same day or even anywhere close, because first, he needs to develop it and test it and add in the features HE wants. So why all this venom over something you hoped might be in there?

:stumped:

I think we just assumed from what was said over the 9 development that FPrime was an integral part, people are just disappointed is all, I'm still happy with the rest of v9!

pooby
07-15-2006, 04:59 AM
So why all this venom over something you hoped might be in there?

I don't think it's venom.. More disappointment, which is natural considering that for many of us, Fprime is central to our work. We've waited a year for this moment to find that we'll be waiting for an undisclosed further amount of time until things work as we'd hoped.

TO be fair, Newtek did put this on the FAQ, so they obviously realise that F-prime is important to users


Will FPrime work with v9?
FPrime works with v9, though some additional development is needed for FPrime to take full advantage of the new features in v9. NewTek and Worley Laboratories are in close communication as developments proceed on both sides. We recommend contacting the developer directly for further information on product compatibility.

I guess, because this FAQ came out quite a few months back, it was assumed (by some) that the developments were proceeding up until the launch and might be ready by then/now

From Worley

Newtek has a design for a possible future extension to LightWave's SDK to allow FPrime to preview and render Node surface effects, but that system is not currently in LW 9.


To find out it's a 'design for a possible future extension' makes it sound like it's WAY off.

conclusion.. Never get your hopes up and you'll avoid disappointment

Pavlov
07-15-2006, 05:01 AM
It's a shame.
I'd like to hear at least two things (since fprime is de-facto a primary reason to use LW):
- a clear statement from NT, since many have waited for much more from the close cooperation they talked about - so why not now, and when ?
- Worley: Nodal is not the only improvementin LW, in fact i'm more concerned with new camera types, as example. some are long-awaited solution for Viz, like ortho and tiltshift lenses. Is is so hard to make an interim, payd release for all users who wants to use at least new cameras ? LW's GI is still a no-way, i'll keep render in Fprime o Kray - and this means i'll get very little from 9. If it is not so difficult, i think a lot of people would appreciate new camera support.

Paolo

RedBull
07-15-2006, 05:34 AM
Whoo, goota love the glass half empty brigade. :p

Now everyone is saying, FPrime isn't taking advantage of Nodal so Newtek broke their promises? Ex-squeeze me?

Quote From Chuck:
"We also stated very clearly several times that we are in fact working very closely with Worley Labs to insure that anything he needs with regard to hooks for FPrime is going to be addressed, and we've provided a list of the SDK enhancements that indicate that we have in fact made the node system accessible, the new camera system accessible, and have increased access to volumetrics and other areas of the existing feature set."


Now yes, the hook is not yet in place, but re-read that first part again, they have designed such a feature, so why on earth people think they are not likely to implement said design as a deliberate act, is beyond me.

When Lightwave 9 is already 7months behind the orginally announced date,
and repeated confirmations that this would be, or in fact had already been addressed, only to find out it has not been. Well i don't think we should pat them on the back for a job well done.

I'm sure throughout the 9.x series it Nodal will be addressed.
But really for how long do you expect people to just keep on believing in NT?


It kills me that folks seem to think unless Newtek go out of their way to assist 3rd parties over their own development, (which people are ALREADY claiming is too slow), that Newtek are lying blah blah blah.

It's thinking like that, that shows NT to be arrogant...
By opening and increasing abilities in the SDK and providing 3rd parties
with greater access to these features with every release this only provides end users with more power and ability in the longrun.

I very much agree with Pooby's comments too.
[/QUOTE]

hrgiger
07-15-2006, 05:34 AM
I had a feeling that even if Fprime would be able to view nodal surfaces, that it wouldn't be right away at the release of Lightwave 9. If Worley Labs has been busy, and they haven't been working with Fprime to make it Lightwave 9 ready (due to LW's SDK shortcomings) then I really hope there is a Sas2 or some other amazing tool from them on the horizon.
Now that Lightwave 9 is out, I really hope that Newtek is going to put it's main focus on opening the SDK and removing all these limitations that seem to be hampering third party development. There could be a lot of amazing progress from 3rd party development if that were done.

StereoMike
07-15-2006, 05:42 AM
I won't really use much for the foreseeable future because LW8 with F-prime is more valuable to me than 9's new features without

But nobody forces you to use nodes in 9. You could still surface oldschool and render with the new kd-tree thing.

[edit] ooops, i answered the post at the end of page two. So ignore this post.

archiea
07-15-2006, 05:45 AM
I had a feeling that even if Fprime would be able to view nodal surfaces, that it wouldn't be right away at the release of Lightwave 9. If Worley Labs has been busy, and they haven't been working with Fprime to make it Lightwave 9 ready (due to LW's SDK shortcomings) then I really hope there is a Sas2 or some other amazing tool from them on the horizon.
Now that Lightwave 9 is out, I really hope that Newtek is going to put it's main focus on opening the SDK and removing all these limitations that seem to be hampering third party development. There could be a lot of amazing progress from 3rd party development if that were done.

SAS2 coming out is one thing, but Fprime has become so integrated into how people light and shade, while at the same time Nodal shading has become and integral part of shading. So to strip that functionality out of lightwave is a blow that SAS2 can't really make up for.

I think priority 1 is making fprime work with LW. The LW FAQ made it sound like NT and worley were tyrying to sycronize their products, while Worley's press release made it sound like full fprime support is a "possibility", as opposed to a "Priority".

He states:

"LW 9's SDK refinements have very little impact on existing LW plugins, so nearly all LW 8 tools will work in LW 9. All of our plugins, FPrime, Sasquatch, G2, Polk, and Taft, work in LightWave 9. There is no use or need for new LightWave 9 specific versions."

Who here, having owned Fprime and having used nodal editing during the past few months, would agree that there is no "use or need" for a new LW9 speific version of Fprime?!?!?!! I meant there was a LW 8.3 & 8.5 specific version of Fprime!!!1 how is this different!?!!?

kfiram
07-15-2006, 05:52 AM
This is BAAAAAAD!!!

The only reason I stuck with LW was FPrime.
The only reason I upgraded to 9 was Nodes.
We were told on multiple occasions and threads (some are quoted above) that FPrime will be able to take advantage of LW's new features, including Nodes (and even Shaders, through the use of Nodes). This was said directly by Newtek. No assumptions, no speculation...

I've been avoiding Shaders ever since FPrime came out.
I've been almost completely avoiding Nodes throughout the Beta cycle.
All because it's impracticle to render in LW (yes, it still is).
I guess I'll continue avoiding them, cause I'd rather use Fprime than Nodes, and currently it's an "either/or" situation.

Now, I don't know what Worley means by "a design for a possible future extension", but if Newtek don't get their act together FAST, they're doomed!

It's one thing to be late by almost a year.
It's another to be late but not deliver on so many promises.
The list is long:
Modeling tools in Layout (promised, not delivered).
Tools consolidation (things are only getting worse on that front, with more tools doing the same jobs).
Edge tools (yes, we have edges, but for real tools we rely on third parties).
Edge weights (practically useless at the moment).
And now FPrime support (which was promised all along).

Newtek - this is BAAAAAAD!!!

Pavlov
07-15-2006, 05:57 AM
not such a drastic situation, imho, but i agree NT should *run* to fix this Fprime issue as very-first thing after release.

paolo

pooby
07-15-2006, 06:01 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by pooby
I won't really use much for the foreseeable future because LW8 with F-prime is more valuable to me than 9's new features without



But nobody forces you to use nodes in 9. You could still surface oldschool and render with the new kd-tree thing.

No, but I have to buy upgrades for every machine at our studio to be able to use 9 in the pipeline.. I currently have only one for assessment.

tyrot
07-15-2006, 06:05 AM
dear wavers

I think we all know they are changing the core of LW. And I dont think anyone can complain about LW SDK which has not been written yet.

And blaming LW9 and its achivement because of Lack of opened SDK? Well mate , they are writing it.. You gotta wait.. What happens if they change something in SDK ? Is worley gonna complain again? Hey they did Open the SDK but they change it. Well , that s why we call you and your product "ThirdParty." He has to develope his tools if wants to get money from LW9ers.

After seeing LWCAD2 videos or SP_MOVE3, i dont even wanna hear a single word about Modeler's SDK. Or seeing PIM, or seeing Vue Xstream integration with LW9...

What happens if Worley stop making LW plugins just like Joe Alter? WHat happens if Luxology "convince" him to work for only Modo based plugins? What is your Plan B?

I dont know you but if Electric Image has the fastest renderer in the field (according to the 3d world review) and if we have two programmers (one of them is in the lead of LW) that my friend is solely enough for me to stay and trust LW renderer.

Plus IF YOU get LW9 just because of FPRIME well my friend you are in trouble. Consider your own plan B. LEarning MAYA? XSI? MAX? changing your workflow? DO they have anything like FPRIME? ...

BEST

archiea
07-15-2006, 06:19 AM
dear wavers



I dont know you but if Electric Image has the fastest renderer in the field (according to the 3d world review) and if we have two programmers (one of them is in the lead of LW) that my friend is solely enough for me to stay and trust LW renderer.


yes, but WHEN? in two or three years with v10 out? time is money.



Plus IF YOU BUT LW9 just because of FPRIME well my friend you are in trouble. Consider your own plan B. LEarning MAYA? XSI? MAX? changing your workflow? DO they have anything like FPRIME? ...

BEST

Yes! That is how important Fprime is to LW users.. ALOT of them!. Its part of their pipeline.. It has single handedly improved workflow a tremendous amount. Fprime CAN be a reason for someone to get LW, especially of they use it as a renderer with another package.

LW's 9 nodal editor has expanded LW's shading abilities tremendously. Many have been working with it for months, anticipating its use in projects with the official release of 9. There was more dialog than not hinting that work was being done to assume that functionality with fprime was not an issue. Its plain and simple: Do not mess with customer's established pipleline as a cost for adding features. Period. Its as clear as day that Fprime was as much a part of LW as the F9 key, regardless of being a third party plugin.

Yes, I too wondered that with such core changes, how could NT keep up with an SDK. But the fact is that LW 9 is an offcial RELEASE, and should have an SDK for it. Period. If this is the "cost" of not paying for x.5 releases or the pricedrop, then it wasn't worth it in my book. :thumbsdow

KillMe
07-15-2006, 06:28 AM
the main reason for all the angst is that we love nodes - we love fprime - but if you have to choose jsut 1? when you had been expecting to be able to sue themtogether if not immediately upon release soon after - but to be told that it MIGHT happen at somepoint in the future - well that tells us worley hasn't started work on getting fprime ready to deal with all the info nodal will have to give it so even if newtek opens up the sdk today its likely gonna be a year before we get an fprime that will use it - and thats depressing

what we suppoost to do texure our objects twice once normally and once with nodes so we can do our lighting with prime then render with lw? and thats assuming your not using radiosity for which alot fo the time lw is out straight away

Panikos
07-15-2006, 06:33 AM
Its amazing that Worley's few words triggered so much response from community, compared to LW9 release.

I wrote before that FPrime saved LW8 and Newtek.
Newtek seems to ignore that. Their future is in their hands.

theo
07-15-2006, 06:43 AM
I can certainly understand a level of frustration from a hardcore FPrime user base for not having access to its power tool but to blame this on Newtek is an illustration of totally misplaced angst.

I am a user as well but certainly in no way would I consider FPrime to be the main reason I use LW. Frankly this is a revealing revelation about those who state this viewpoint- which is, at what depth are you really utilizing LW? It would appear to be almost a cursory level if FPRime is your only salvation for banging out work in LW.

FPrime is fast and accurate but not radically so. And certainly not to the level that would justify a reason to trash Newtek for a new release failure.

I think there needs to be a rational balance here.

kfiram
07-15-2006, 06:51 AM
what we suppoost to do texure our objects twice once normally and once with nodes so we can do our lighting with prime then render with lw? and thats assuming your not using radiosity for which alot fo the time lw is out straight away

Yep, so now we have 2 previewing systems and 2 rendering engines which all leave a lot to be desired:

FPrime for lighting preview, Viper for Nodes.
LW for Node rendering, FPrime for Radiosity.
And no ability to mix the four...
No (practical) way of rendering a Radiosity scene with Nodes.
No way of previewing Nodes with Transparency / Radiosity / Shadows...



Lightwave NEEDS FPrime to survive.
It's the one tool in its arsenal that is ahead of the competition.
For many, it is the ONLY reason to choose LW.
It's a tremendous workflow improvement when used as a previewer and an absolute necessity when it comes to photo-realistic rendering.

As it stands now, I'd definitely choose FPrime over Nodes.
As FPrime is also deprived of seeing LW9's Advanced Cameras and APS, I see almost no advantage of using LW9 Layout. Sure, Modeler9 is nice, but it's still a work in progress. Layout, and specifically Nodes, Cameras and APS were supposed to be this version's prime highlights.
Well, not for many users who, like me, would continue to use FPrime over F9.

digital verve
07-15-2006, 06:57 AM
If is wasn't FPrime it would be something else to zealously complain about with some people in this community.

I need fast opengl NOW in modeller. It was promised in the 8 update cycle, then LW 9 and now sometime in the LW 9.x cycle. The reason I put off buying another app was the promised OPENGL speedup in modeller which did not come. This does not make me a happy customer, but I still see lots of bugs killed and proper features added to equal the best LW release in nearly 10 years, which makes me a more happier customer than otherwise. They are late, but I know they will come. I try and keep things in prespective and appreciate the good. The bad still needs complaining about though.

mrunion
07-15-2006, 06:59 AM
(SICKENED)

I do not make money with LW -- it's a hobby. But to hear people say the only reason they stay with LW is because of a 3rd party plugin rings in my mind of a bad decision.

I am a software developer by profession and no programmer in their right mind would stay with Vis Studio, DreamWeaver, Wacom C++ or whatever because of a 3rd party plugin. That's a sure way to doom yourself.

NT did not lie. Worley didn't either. Overeager people just placed slanted views where they shouldn't be and took them as gospel.

This is a public forum, free speech and everything else. But for goodness sakes folks pull it together. It's SOFTWARE -- use it for what it does, use something else when needed, and stop acting like your world just ended. Other people do fine without FPrime and I'm sure if it dropped off the Earth tomorrow life goes on.

tyrot
07-15-2006, 07:00 AM
I wrote before that FPrime saved LW8 and Newtek.
Newtek seems to ignore that. Their future is in their hands.

dear panikos

your sentence is correct and not correct.Both ways. LW8 was totally different story.

I think and i believe (totally subjective feeling) LW9 and future of LW will be determined by NEWTEK's own development team. THis is just a start. ANd i believe if they bang their heads they can come up something like Fprime and it can be hard for Worley to come up with LW.

An intentionally broken, left in dust program start to standing on its feet and people still choose the easy way to complain.

"if you don t update character animation..i will leave you"
"if you dont open your SDK to worley i will leave you"
"if FPRIME doesnt support shaders i want my money back" hello??

you HAVE to direct all your complaints to another company mate...Your answers are there, not here. These guys are trying to resurrect something we love , we love to work with and we love to stay with..

They cant satisfy every plugin writer right away before they fix their own code..

BEST

digital verve
07-15-2006, 07:01 AM
Quote From Chuck:
"We also stated very clearly several times that we are in fact working very closely with Worley Labs to insure that anything he needs with regard to hooks for FPrime is going to be addressed, and we've provided a list of the SDK enhancements that indicate that we have in fact made the node system accessible, the new camera system accessible, and have increased access to volumetrics and other areas of the existing feature set."


Okay. That is bad. According to that statement people would expect to have FPrime wokring sometime in the near future with nodes. Chucks statement does seem to be at odds with what Worley said on his site.

EDIT: Or maybe it is some misunderstanding. Maybe there is Node access, but not to the level yet that Worley needs. I don't know, but still think some people are over reacting.

archiea
07-15-2006, 07:02 AM
I can certainly understand a level of frustration from a hardcore FPrime user base for not having access to its power tool but to blame this on Newtek is an illustration of totally misplaced angst.

I do agree that this is a third party product and the domain of that company... but worley alluded to the fact that the SDK, the interface for third party companies, was the reason why there is no nodal support in Fprime.




I am a user as well but certainly in no way would I consider FPrime to be the main reason I use LW. Frankly this is a revealing revelation about those who state this viewpoint- which is, at what depth are you really utilizing LW? It would appear to be almost a cursory level if FPRime is your only salvation for banging out work in LW.


If rendering, shading and lighting in Lightwave is cursory, then I guess our use is. Rendering, shading and lighting may have been the only reason some got LW. Some have used Fprime AS their renderer.

I diagree with your assumption. Our dependence on Fprime does not indicate a cursory use of LW. Really, its up to the user as how they use LW. The feedback here seems to point that Fprime was a critical componet, as is the new nodal shader, apparently.



FPrime is fast and accurate but not radically so.

Oh yes.. it is. In lighting alone..

Pavlov
07-15-2006, 07:03 AM
Agree Lw NEEDS Fprime.
If i have to choose between all nine's features and Fprime, i still choose Fprime without a doubt.
This is my precise pov, hope it's the same for many so NT has a clear direction to go for next times.

paolo

3dworks
07-15-2006, 07:05 AM
It's a shame.
I'd like to hear at least two things (since fprime is de-facto a primary reason to use LW):
- a clear statement from NT, since many have waited for much more from the close cooperation they talked about - so why not now, and when ?
- Worley: Nodal is not the only improvementin LW, in fact i'm more concerned with new camera types, as example. some are long-awaited solution for Viz, like ortho and tiltshift lenses. Is is so hard to make an interim, payd release for all users who wants to use at least new cameras ? LW's GI is still a no-way, i'll keep render in Fprime o Kray - and this means i'll get very little from 9. If it is not so difficult, i think a lot of people would appreciate new camera support.

Paolo

i can only agree: GI and radiosity are de facto standard in today's viz business. fprime (and maybe - in future kray) are the only suitable way to do this in LW.
at this point the two options are: newtek needs to do make it's incorporated GI/ radiosity engine state of the art again (as it was in the days when tey introduced radiosity) in order to compete with this plugins or - second option - they drop that part of the development and integrate (and integration means to remove all the existing limitations!) one of those already well working technologies, if the plugin developers are ready to go this path with them.

apparently, worley is not able (or willing) to get past the given SDK limitations, so it's up to newtek to take action now.

LW9 is a very nice release, but for me the GI aspects of the renderer are the weakest point of all. i hope i can stay with LW as my main 3d tool in the future.

markus

Bog
07-15-2006, 07:07 AM
<Zorg> I am... fairly.... disappointed. </Zorg>

To put it mildly. FPrime was a real creative edge. I don't know if someone humped the bunk, or if there's just iffy word-choices on the Worley site. I mean, it sounds quite positive, and stuff, just that we're not, y'know... getting anything yet.

I'm trying to restrain myself from throwing my toys out of the pram, but a comment on something we can't get is nowhere near as welcome as a hint that, say, volumetrics would work. Or something.

Anything.

*watches the tumbleweed bounce past*

Bugger.

archiea
07-15-2006, 07:10 AM
If is wasn't FPrime it would be something else to zealously complain about with some people in this community.


No, I;m sorry, this is not some snowballing complaint. The kfiram above stated it clearly: Fprime's lack of support for LW9's nodal materials, Advanced Cameras and APS takes a chunk out of LW's9 appeal.. AFTEr they have our money. Had NT CLEARLY stated that Fprime/SDK support would have to follow MUCHlater in the releaase, folks here would only have themselves to blame. But that was no the case.



I need fast opengl NOW in modeller. It was promised in the 8 update cycle, then LW 9 and now sometime in the LW 9.x cycle. The reason I put off buying another app was the promised OPENGL speedup in modeller which did not come. This does not make me a happy customer, but I still see lots of bugs killed and proper features added to equal the best LW release in nearly 10 years, which makes me a more happier customer than otherwise. They are late, but I know they will come. I try and keep things in prespective and appreciate the good. The bad still needs complaining about though.

As you stated, you were promised something, you didn't get it, but you benefitted from a few new features and bug fixes. Fprime users were in a way promised compatability, we didn;t get it, and the features we did get LW 9 for areuseless with our current workflow.. i.e. Fprime. How was yoru workflow impeded with LW's 9 modeler? Did a plugin that you depended on almost as much as LW itself just become obselete?

blondimage
07-15-2006, 07:15 AM
It is a disappointment about Fprime not using Nodes or the new cameras.

But I see it that maybe Fprime as is was only ever going to go so far. Maybe Worley will have a new product out which is Fprime, G2 and Sas in one!

Come Siggy '06 Newtek will have to show some thing for the future. Maybe that will be an integral Fprime?

There will be something soon as a solution for this.

GCL
07-15-2006, 07:21 AM
My impression about all this mess is...

Unless :newtek: and/or third party developers are acting like their products are industrial secrets on a need to know basis,
they (:newtek: and 3rd parties) need to clean house, be honest and state the obvious of what WILL work or NOT.
That is, is Fprime EVER achieve it's true potential or just string along users on the hope it's coming based on statements made by both parties.
NOTHING happens in a vacuum, :newtek: and 3rd parties DO know the road map ahead and need to be blunt and honest about what WILL work ever or NOT.
Otherwise the users will always second guess, speculate results.

I too got the LW9 upgrade to keep pace with :newtek: and 3rd parties but also do expect to know what each party intentions are for the now and future.
Believe me, it would go a long way for :newtek: and 3rd parties to have a SOLID core of SATISFIED HAPPY users out there if done right.
Makes me chuckle on the inside when I KNOW :newtek: and 3rd parties developers read forums like these and KNOW they could go a long way on appeasing the users. ANY retailer know that customer service is number 1 priority and software vendors are NO exceptions.

archiea
07-15-2006, 07:22 AM
(SICKENED)

I do not make money with LW -- it's a hobby. But to hear people say the only reason they stay with LW is because of a 3rd party plugin rings in my mind of a bad decision.

I am a software developer by profession and no programmer in their right mind would stay with Vis Studio, DreamWeaver, Wacom C++ or whatever because of a 3rd party plugin. That's a sure way to doom yourself.



some of what you state is true, but factor this:

Fprime has kept up with v8 somewhat erratic releases. Worley was on top of things with that.

Fprime was publicly endorsed by NT in trade shows.... sometimes demoing with it I think.

Fprime, quite simply, brought LW through the dark ages, if you used LW for rendering/lighting/shading...

as a result, people who do make their money with LW and Fprime, we justifiably based our decision and business on the LW/Fprime workflow.




NT did not lie. Worley didn't either. Overeager people just placed slanted views where they shouldn't be and took them as gospel.


Worley has had an exemplory record on maintaining his software with LW releases.

NT alluded that much effort was being made to work with Fprime and worley. They have remained silient to the contrary.

Upgrade purchases may have been partially based on this continual marriage.

Fast forward to yesterday, Fprime's full compatability with LW 9 falls into the realm of a maybe at best.

In the eyes of the law, they are not at fault. In the eys of customer satisfaction? well, the post say it all.



This is a public forum, free speech and everything else.


Actually this is Newtek's forum and Free speech does not apply. However NT has been very generous and fair in allowing us to post our grievenses.



But for goodness sakes folks pull it together. It's SOFTWARE -- use it for what it does, use something else when needed, and stop acting like your world just ended. Other people do fine without FPrime and I'm sure if it dropped off the Earth tomorrow life goes on.

Like you said.. you don't make money with LW. Fprime offerd a monumental time savings workflow. You affect that workflow, and time is money, you are going to get a reponse. Its some people's livelihood, show some respect.

digital verve
07-15-2006, 07:28 AM
As you stated, you were promised something, you didn't get it, but you benefitted from a few new features and bug fixes. Fprime users were in a way promised compatability, we didn;t get it, and the features we did get LW 9 for areuseless with our current workflow.. i.e. Fprime.

I see your point. I'm a member of a few video/cg forums and only Lightwave seems to have a number of individuals complaining all the time, hence my initial reactions.

Now having seen the previous statement by Chuck, I can see how users dependent on FPrime are upset. Just as I will leave Lightwave for modelling if the opengl updates I require for my work does not come shortly.

EDIT: I think Newtek should have kept users informed of this situation by saying it was not quite ready for this release, but were working hard on it for a future update. Or something on those lines.

Yog
07-15-2006, 07:28 AM
Don't forget, that unlike all previous releases, LW-9 is a full cycle project, meaning there are a number of things that have been anounced (modelling tools in Layout, improved CA, OpenEXR support, etc) for LW-9x but which will not be in the initial LW-9.0 release, but are programmed to be included by the end of the LW-9.x cycle. I'm assuming that an improved SDK to make Nodes more visable is one of them.
Steve Worley says as much himself, "Newtek has a design for a possible future extension to LightWave's SDK to allow FPrime to preview and render Node surface effects, but that system is not currently in LW 9". So Newtek ARE working on it, it's just not there yet.

Don't forget, Newtek have already had to do a lot of work already just to have Nodal implemented in their environment, and then designed a route for integrating into the SDK.

I'm not sure if I totally agree with Newtek on announcing all the features (or at least most) that will appear in the full life of the development cycle, and not just those that will appear in the point-0 release, after all the LW-8 cycle was over two years long, but since the LW-9 FAQ was posted they have been quite upfront about their intensions to do this.
An uncharitable wag might say, save your money, buy LW-10 and get all of LW-9's features in one go :rolleyes: But like I said, they have been upfront that not everything will be in LW-9.0, so buyers were informed of the principal, if not the detail.

BTW - I did find Steve Worley's opening statement quite odd.
"Newtek has now released us from "nondisclosure silence" and we can finally discuss LightWave 9 and how it affects our tools."
It makes it sound that Newtek were preventing Steve from commenting on the fact that LW-9.0 wouldn't enable Nodal-Fprime integration. Perhaps it was the case that such integration was planned for the LW-9.0 release, but Newtek just didn't have the time to implement it.
After all, Siggraph is just a few weeks away, and no matter what Newtek wanted to include in LW-9.0, they HAD to release it before then.

archiea
07-15-2006, 07:34 AM
I see your point. I'm a member of a few video/cg forums and only Lightwave seems to have a number of individuals complaining all the time, hence my initial reactions.


I'd have to agree. The LW 9 release quelled much of that with the beta by easing folks into the transition. LW 9 is a great release in the scope of LW's recent history. In relation to the industry.. well...

The Fprime/SDK debacle is also a great oversight.



Now having seen the previous statement by Chuck, I can see how users dependent on FPrime are upset. Just as I will leave Lightwave for modelling if the opengl updates I require for my work does not come shortly.

With Modo that could come sooner than later for you. NT needs to pick up the pace

archiea
07-15-2006, 07:42 AM
Don't forget, that unlike all previous releases, LW-9 is a full cycle project, meaning there are a number of things that have been anounced (modelling tools in Layout, improved CA, OpenEXR support, etc) for LW-9x but which will not be in the initial LW-9.0 release, but are programmed to be included by the end of the LW-9.x cycle. I'm assuming that an improved SDK to make Nodes more visable is one of them.
Steve Worley says as much himself, "Newtek has a design for a possible future extension to LightWave's SDK to allow FPrime to preview and render Node surface effects, but that system is not currently in LW 9". So Newtek ARE working on it, it's just not there yet.

Don't forget, Newtek have already had to do a lot of work already just to have Nodal implemented in their environment, and then designed a route for integrating into the SDK.


Good counter argument. The truthis ther ewill always be what the customer wants, and what is possible.. Just make sure that gap ain't too wide!





BTW - I did find Steve Worley's opening statement quite odd.
"Newtek has now released us from "nondisclosure silence" and we can finally discuss LightWave 9 and how it affects our tools."
It makes it sound that Newtek were preventing Steve from commenting on the fact that LW-9.0 wouldn't enable Nodal-Fprime integration.


This is all speculative, but yes, it does. Had we known last fall that LW 9's new features would not have worked with fprime, how many would have preorderd...

Then there is the notion of preordering.... you pay 6 months in advance before receiving a final product. The sales and promotions are great, the beta program got you involved with the app early, and, in th eend, no one twisted your arm,,,



Perhaps it was the case that such integration was planned for the LW-9.0 release, but Newtek just didn't have the time to implement it.
After all, Siggraph is just a few weeks away, and no matter what Newtek wanted to include in LW-9.0, they HAD to release it before then.

LW 9 will look pretty amazing up a Siggy..AND shipping!:thumbsup:

cresshead
07-15-2006, 07:42 AM
the way i read this is that there is no current reason to get f prime for lightwave 9

worley has hinted that a NEW plugin is in the works [could be a new external renderer that replaces G2 AND f prime]

f prime was and is a set of compromises...you get realtime feedback and radiosity with bounces but hypervoxels, network rendering and shaders all do not work as they should...now with lw9 the advanced cameras, adaptive subdivision...maybe ngons sub d and the nodal shader also do not work...

in the long run i'd sooner see newtek make a fprime like capability as it will be 'in house' and will always work with everything...

i have fprime...it's nice and nifty...but it's been out for 2+ years...other people will be making similar things for lightwave, max, maya , xsi etc
their time is running out to keep it top of the pile for cutting edge features..they need to expand for lightwave or create it for another 3d app such as 3dsmax, maya, xsi....

Pavlov
07-15-2006, 07:43 AM
My hope is NT released 9 (with some unresolved issues and in some cases not working because of hub - i cannot even *open* modeler) because of market issues with upcoming Siggraph, but they're still full coding for next point releases.

Paolo

Bog
07-15-2006, 07:50 AM
Yur. The bottom line is that you can't use any of 9's new features in FPrime. This is... displeasing. There are quite a lot of them. Especially APS and it's ability to slam the polycount through the rafters very rapidly would benefit from the sheer speed of fprime.

Bleh. It's days like this I start to think that licencing the technology wouldn't be such a bad idea. I'm not too concerned about nodes "for the learning", that's why we've got VIPER after all - but even just a gorram hint that APS, the new camera types, Catmull-Clarke SubDs etc might get implimented down the road would save me a lot of tooth enamel.

I think I may go for a stroll by the river. I could use a calm-down.

cresshead
07-15-2006, 08:07 AM
trying to look on the positive side....
one thing we should always remember we have the CHOICE to use fprime...those who use xsi, maya, cinema4d, 3dsmax and houdini DO NOT

it's not all doom n gloom!

Yog
07-15-2006, 08:12 AM
... but even just a gorram hint that APS, the new camera types, Catmull-Clarke SubDs etc might get implimented down the road would save me a lot of tooth enamel.I'm just not sure how much F-Prime will be able to cope with such new features. APS is a render time effect, which means that F-Prime would need to wait till longer in the Lightwave pass through process before it can pick up the information and do it's thing with it, and the longer it has to wait for LW to do it's thing, the less speed advantage there will be for F-Prime.
As for the new camera types, they were originally developed as a third party plug-in, and we all know the difficulty F-Prime has with 3rd-party plug-ins and shaders. In effect Lightwave would do it's thing, at some point the new camera plug-in picks up the data, starts to use it, then when it was in an appropriate position F-Prime would then pick it up. Again that's an awful lot of data transfer and reordering to go through, rather than F-Prime just picking the data up direct from the scene.

Don't forget, Steve Worley himself says that F-Prime was never meant to be a full on renderer, but just a previewer, it was feedback from his beta testers that encouraged him to add output rendering capabilities.

At the momment Mr.Worley is saying point blank that the SDK hooks he would need just aren't there (yet), but even if they were, the amount of work needed to rewrite large sections of F-Prime so that it picks data up at different stages and at different times seems truely staggering. Is it even financially worth it.
Then again, Worley has surprised us many times in the past, in a good way :thumbsup:

3DBob
07-15-2006, 08:21 AM
I went to worleys site, CC in hand, Ready to buy something - and there was nothing. Gutted.

I use LW professionally, have done for over 10 years, FPrime was a coup for Newtek, and apart from fixing the "load from scene" bug that looses all attached expressions, right now for me, the most important Layout plug-in ( The awesome LWCAD 2 is the creme of the modeler plugins ) that needs to be updated.

I have not bothered with Nodal - as I was waiting for FP to be working with it. I will probably only use it if something can't be done another way that works with FP. That is the facts. That is how important it is that it works.

I'm in the process of developing a studio where I intend to have upwards of 50 Lightwave seats - This situation just complicates my decision making. If FP is not going to be up to speed with LW9s new features for a year or so, for whatever reason - I need to know. I have to know if I am making the right choice of tools for my workflow, as I am staking my house on this venture.

3DBob

spec24
07-15-2006, 08:29 AM
[QUOTE=colkai]
Newtek is not listening to it's userbase? Ohh fer gawds sake people, how many frikkin bugs did they squash as a result of doing that very thing?
QUOTE]

Squashing bugs is listening to the user base?? I thought that squashing bugs was fixing broken software.

The issue is that people who use Fprime love and could not imagine working with LW without it. It increases workflow by 1000 fold. Yes, it doesn't do hypervoxels or Sasquatch or shaders but for 90% of lighting and shading it was great. And it made working with LW easier and many of us have stopped banging our heads on the wall and slamming our keyboards because FPrime made LW worth it. Now so many of us have all paid for 9 with the thought that surely NT would (as they stated) be working closely with Worley - then Worley coming out and saying "a possible" - POSSIBLE?? How about a definite? Or probable?! It should've been tops on the list with Nodal.

Bog
07-15-2006, 08:32 AM
Yes, it doesn't do hypervoxels

Yes it does, just not in the previewer, only at rendertime.

As to FPrime just being a previewer, G2 already did that. I'm not in the habit of buying the same tool twice, especially not from the same person. You know the old saying... "Tool me once, shame on you..." Well, it's something like that.

archiea
07-15-2006, 08:37 AM
G2 was more than a previewer. Fprime is an evolutionof G2's previewing features, but not a lighting and shading sytem like G2.

Scazzino
07-15-2006, 08:37 AM
Wow...

I use FPrime myself, mostly as a viper replacement all the time while surfacing and for rendering GI stills occasionally.

I also use LW9 and love the nodal surfaces. It will be great when FPrime works with nodal surfaces and the new cameras, etc. Lack of FPrime support of nodes has indeed slowed down my adoption of nodes, but not my use of LW9 since you can still use FPrime just as you did in LW8.

Most of these new features are the result of drastic core level architectural changes to LW that are still in progress. It's quite understandable that they release LW9 with the new features functional for us but still need more time to continue with the core changes before they can extend the hooks needed in the SDK. Then Worley will need time to implement the changes.

NewTek said they are working closely with Worley. They never said that they'd be at a point where FPrime would work with all the new features from day one of LW9's release.

Based on this forum I'm quite sure that NewTek knows just how important FPrime is to many of our workflows, and I'm also sure that they are doing what they can to help extend hooks for the new features so FPrime can use them... I know we all wish FPrime worked with this stuff from day one, but it's just gonna take time...

I'll continue using FPrime for normal surfacing and for some GI still renders. I'll revert to using viper for nodal surfaces when needed and I'll avoid using nodal surfaces for GI stills that I need to render in FPrime.

:thumbsup:

papou
07-15-2006, 08:46 AM
i can't forget that when Nodal was a lw8 plugin dev, it was working with FPrime...

Celshader
07-15-2006, 08:47 AM
The issue is that people who use Fprime love and could not imagine working with LW without it.

Heh. FPrime's fine for helping me set up photoreal lighting and surfacing in some of my stuff, but I can darn well imagine working in LightWave without it. For celshading (http://www.celshader.com/gallery/) at home and massive amounts of partigons/shadow-maps at work, I must use LightWave without FPrime.

I do look forwards to Worley's next update of FPrime, but until then I'll accept that my FPrime will only be good for some things in LightWave 9.0. It's not too different than where I am right now with FPrime + LightWave 8.5.

Celshader
07-15-2006, 08:48 AM
i can't forget that when Nodal was a lw8 plugin dev, it was working with FPrime...

Proof that the Node Editor is no longer a plug-in. ;)

spec24
07-15-2006, 08:50 AM
Yes it does, just not in the previewer, only at rendertime.


Yeah I know, but I think most of us are referring to Fprime when it's being used as a previewer. I use Fprime as a renderer on occasion if there's nothing else in my scene that Fprime can't see, or if I need to see a quick preview of an animation that I might possible want to finalize.

papou
07-15-2006, 08:52 AM
Proof that the Node Editor is no longer a plug-in. ;)

don't care if it's a plugin or not. I want it to work the best way.

spec24
07-15-2006, 08:54 AM
Heh. FPrime's fine for helping me set up photoreal lighting and surfacing in some of my stuff, but I can darn well imagine working in LightWave without it.

You say that like setting up photoreal lighting and surfacing in LW without Fprime is a breeze and takes no time at all. I can imagine working in LW without it too, because since version 4 I had. Now that I work with it I can't imagine it without. Apparently neither can a lot of others.

Bog
07-15-2006, 09:13 AM
I use Fprime as a renderer on occasion if there's nothing else in my scene that Fprime can't see, or if I need to see a quick preview of an animation that I might possible want to finalize.

I use FPrime as a renderer often, because radiosity lighting knocks vanilla raytrace into a cocked hat. I was really, really looking forward to an FPrime update even if *all* it had was the new camera types. I know they started off as a third party tool - Tuff Li'l Unit's Vodka plugin, wasn't it? - but that's not really the point. Does this mean that Relativity 2 will be glitchy under FPrime like a lot of item-motion tools? I hardly dare even look.

Whyever things have played out this way, it's a blow.

pooby
07-15-2006, 09:15 AM
everyone CAN work without Fprime.
The thing is, lots of us use LW partly because of F-prime.

There's no point in the people who don't think it's a big deal trying to convince the people who are alarmed that it's not a problem - Everyone uses LW in a different way. That's like saying to your painter freind 'It doesn't matter that the art shop's run out of paint, I usually use pencils anyway and I get by ok.'

tyrot
07-15-2006, 09:34 AM
dear wavers

after reading all those posts i feel different. If i had a chance to lead LW's development cycle, I would start working on built in Fprime-like previewer and renderer. Otherwise whole future will be like this. What should NT do for Worley and Fprime?

It is like Fprime is the core of Lightwave workflow. I thought LW is a full application modeler + layout. ANd there are so many things to improve still so much pressure on Jay and the Newtekers.

They implemented manythings but it is not enough, no, people wants it Fprimed. Too much pressure for a development team, because everyone is not only LW addict but also Fprime addict, so may be next time, Jay should ask to Worley "CAN I RELEASE LW 10? Are you OK with it?"

Isnt it a bit weird a preview/renderer plugin asks almost half of Lightwave's cost and getting all kudos and leaving a fantastic release in the shades of doubts...

I would consider this point seriously before Openning SDK. And start work on internal Previewer-renderer.

BEST

Bog
07-15-2006, 09:40 AM
I thought LW is a full application modeler + layout.

Oh don't get us wrong lad, LightWave is the most complete out-of-the-box modelling and rendering package going. You can get more, but only if you can buy a Lambourghini out of pocket change.

It's just that FPrime was a massive boost to the abilities that a single artist or home studio could bring to the table. It made us LightWavers lob buckets of radiosity about like we just didn't care. And, yeah, it was a bit on the pricey side, but it very rapidly earned it's own price back. Heck, I don't think many people around here spend $400 on something that's just a bit of fun.

LW has an internal preview (VIPER) and renderer (Now with a slew of different cameras). In fact, it's go the prettiest built-in renderer of any desktop 3D software unless my info's shamefully out-of-date.

It's just a real kick in the nadgers that the first thing Worley says on LW9 release is "No, not doing anything new". Because FPrime was *really, really, really* fast.

Bleh.

tyrot
07-15-2006, 09:49 AM
It's just a real kick in the nadgers that the first thing Worley says on LW9 release is "No, not doing anything new".



dear bog

I think he is risking his business..

BEST

Bog
07-15-2006, 10:06 AM
I suppose it's his to risk, but yeah. Half a year of silence, then "Oh what you've got should work fine, no need for a 9 version. Anyway, NewTek didn't put the node hooks in..."

Doesn't exactly inspire confidence. And I'd been trying to be so upbeat as well.

Lovely sunny day, mind.

colkai
07-15-2006, 10:23 AM
Lightwave NEEDS FPrime to survive.
It's the one tool in its arsenal that is ahead of the competition.
For many, it is the ONLY reason to choose LW.

I think that is a little melodramatic, sure FPrime is a useful tool, but even before LW9 it didn't handle shaders, so a lot of people used it for waht it was inittially intended to be, a preview renderer. The fact that is was so good and di things so fast meant people used it sa their main render engine.

However, if you wanted to use any sort of shader, you had to stick with F9, it's no different now with Nodal. At least now Newtek ARE opening up the SDK, which is something that didn't happen under the old regime, so regardless of peoples frustrations, you have to admit at least change is happening.

Humans being what they are of course, change is never sweeping enough or quick enough. (Unless of course it's tax changes that hurt you, then the change is too fast and too much). :p


If is wasn't FPrime it would be something else to zealously complain about with some people in this community.
Alas, another human trait. ;)

colkai
07-15-2006, 10:27 AM
don't care if it's a plugin or not. I want it to work the best way.
It's a plugin for LW
"We don't want plugins ...we want it integrated"


.......



It's integrated

"We don't want integrated, we want a plugin"

Hehe...I like my brandy strong....I said strong.... ouch... not that strong. ;)

What are we humans like at all, as for the weather lately, I'm British, don't even get me started! ;)

KillMe
07-15-2006, 10:31 AM
what worries me is that somethign liek getting fprime to render the node and shader info along with new cameras etc is a BIG job but since the so called workling closely measn they say hi as they pass each other when out shopping - workley is going to have to start - START work on it once newtek provides the links - shouldn't have have at least provided him with an experimental version so he could at least start telling fprime what sss is etc and then refine the connection once the sdk is finalised?

i mean i would not be surprised that a node based fprime came along a year or so after newtek makes it possible

i mean what exactly were worley and newtek talking about if not Fprime <-> Lw connection

Red_Oddity
07-15-2006, 10:43 AM
Having read through the entire thread (which took a complete hour out of a beautiful day mind you), i can't really understand the sheer amount of frustration (well to a large part i can, but stay with me)

I use LW on a daily basis for my work (well, used it on a daily basis, Maya kindoff became the bandaid used to patch up LWs shortcomings, i'm practically covered in Alias/Discreet bandaids right now, but i think my right hand still has some old bandaids with Newtek printed on 'm) but it is still possible to use FPrime for some of the most tricky and time consuming aspects of 3d, namely tweaking lighting and setting up reflections/refractions.
Sure, you can't use Nodal (for now) with FPrime, but you can still use FPrime to do your overall scene setup and tweaking while rendering out your Nodal shaded objects using the build in LW renderer.
And as for the new camera systems, well, not even Lightwave can give you a preview of what the camera lens views in OpenGL (yet).

Oh, and, as a bandaid to the current problem, just render out the GI pass in FPrime using no textures on your objects and render out a color pass with the build in renderer and use PS or some composite program to merge the two renders.

Bog
07-15-2006, 10:45 AM
Rats.

It's just occoured to me, Zoic use a lot of FPrime. So no uber-cool new F/X camera work for Galactica season 3. That's a bummer - the spherical camera would have been so cool for a Cylon's-Eye View of stuff.

digital verve
07-15-2006, 10:51 AM
Rats.

It's just occoured to me, Zoic use a lot of FPrime. So no uber-cool new F/X camera work for Galactica season 3. That's a bummer - the spherical camera would have been so cool for a Cylon's-Eye View of stuff.

Don't think so. LW 9 can now handle larger scenes and render a lot faster with them. I'm sure Zoic have a spare computer or two :) to network render on. Fprime doesn't network render does it. :)

papou
07-15-2006, 10:53 AM
It's a plugin for LW
"We don't want plugins ...we want it integrated"
.......
It's integrated
"We don't want integrated, we want a plugin")

C'mon, not time to play with words.
What we need is an access to all Lightwave function. There are a lot of things we can't access, because the function does not exist in the sdk. Or half implemented.
When i think about integrated, i mean integrated and accessable. If not, the problem is exactly the same like with external plugin. A external module that can't share datas...

digital verve
07-15-2006, 11:05 AM
Does anyone know or have compared Lightwave 9 render speeds with other industry standards such as Mentalray etc, using same/similar scenes? I don't see a problem with taking advantage of the cool new rendering tools in LW9. If rendering speeds are neary double the speed in most cases now (almost like getting an extra computer to render on), is FPrime as essential as it was?

I hope Newtek provide their own solutiion in 'Viper Xtreme' :)

Bog
07-15-2006, 11:08 AM
Ahhh, Nodelessness.

LW:

http://www.atomicfish.co.uk/images/pillarslw.jpg

FPrime:

http://www.atomicfish.co.uk/images/pillarsfprime.jpg


Rrrarse.

Castius
07-15-2006, 11:23 AM
Wow, I knew people would have a hard time understand that everything promised for lw 9 would not be in 9.0. On something so clearly starting that it will be there just not yet. I understand that Fprime is important and so are nodes. Thats probable why there taking there time to do it RIGHT.

I know it would have been super nice to have fprime read nodes in 9.0. But don't you think that since it has been stated it would be in 9 and that it is not in 9.0 that there was probable some good reasons. Newtek has been as open as possible about how lw 9 will be developed and that NOT everything will be done right away. You praise that openness yet you bash them when that isn't 99.99% what you want to hear.

I'm just glad to have a Lightwave to use. Lets consider what it would be like if newtek When dark with LW. We would have fprime for lw 7.5. Plugins needed for reading any surface. plugins to read and deformation, and no volumetrics. My alternatives would be modo or XSI. One of which doesn't even have an sdk released at all yet. Let alone missing features from an SDK. So there wouldn't even be the possibility of worley switching to modo. So i consider myself pretty lucky that i use a 3d software called LW that has so many third party developers that make so many plugins that users can't barely keep track off them. And most of them for free or dirt cheep. Some Plugins that can even still work from lw 5.6.

So you know what I'm gonna do. I'm gonna participate in months of open beta testing. Or do what ever it takes to support a company that is clearly doing everything in there power to make the best darn 3d software for me to buy and use. And try not to to cry about features that might not be ready for me to use yet.

Bog
07-15-2006, 11:27 AM
Castius:

1) I'm not dissing NT in the least.

2) I'm not particularly dissing Worley. This is catharsis. If the next version of FPrime either doesn't carry the new cameras and nodes or simply doesn't exist, then I'll explode ;)

theo
07-15-2006, 11:27 AM
Does anyone know or have compared Lightwave 9 render speeds with other industry standards such as Mentalray etc, using same/similar scenes? I don't see a problem with taking advantage of the cool new rendering tools in LW9. If rendering speeds are neary double the speed in most cases now (almost like getting an extra computer to render on), is FPrime as essential as it was?

I hope Newtek provide their own solutiion in 'Viper Xtreme' :)

Uh, verve? Have you been reading this thread, fellow? According to some of our studious members here in this thread FPrime is so essential that this is the main reason they even crack LW open.

Soooooo....yes I would say that means FPrime is essential. Now in my world FPrime is not essential, it is complementary which I think is the actual legitimate reason for its existence. LW is essential- FPrime is complementary.

I have noted a marked increase in LW render speeds especially in the high poly arena which has given me reason to be very optimistic in regards to LW's rendering capabilities.

Anti-Distinctly
07-15-2006, 11:32 AM
I've been playing with nodes a great deal so aven't used FPrime alot and kind of got used to it. It is definately slower though.

The only beef I have is that, as far as I'm aware, NT saying they're working very closely with Worley, will mean an updated FPrime. Now we have a very amiguous statement from Worley. I know he doesn't want to set anything in stone, but at least throw us a bone - one update in 7 months doesn't help things. We've got nothing to go on except speculation.

stevecullum
07-15-2006, 12:17 PM
It's just occoured to me, Zoic use a lot of FPrime. So no uber-cool new F/X camera work for Galactica season 3. That's a bummer - the spherical camera would have been so cool for a Cylon's-Eye View of stuff.

The new 9 renderer is easily good for production level work! Just because Fprime isn't 100% yet doesn't mean studios won't use the new features. I think BSG season 3 will be great ;)

parm
07-15-2006, 12:24 PM
What makes me laugh. Is that they waited for this:

"Newtek has now released us from "nondisclosure silence" and we can finally discuss LightWave 9 and how it affects our tools."

To say this:

"There is no use or need for new LightWave 9 specific versions."

And besides, it doesn't work properly with LW9.

Bog
07-15-2006, 12:56 PM
The new 9 renderer is easily good for production level work!

Dude, the 8 and 7 renderers were easily good for production level work. I seem to recall a fairly popular series being done with version 2.5 or 3. What was it called? Gesthemene 4 or something... ?
But FPrime was a very serious Edge, even if it was a RAM-hog (sheesh, hark at me and my past tense, speaking as though it were our Honoured Dead). I get the sneaking suspicion (looking at some of the Galactica stuff) that is was a case of rendering in multiple passes (that looks for all the world like Tracer gunfire coming from those Vipers to me, but that doesn't work in FPrime, so presumably a comp-job) so it wasn't a one-shot solution anyway.

But it's always nice to have an edge. Now I'm just stuck with using too many parentheses ;)

theo
07-15-2006, 01:01 PM
But it's always nice to have an edge.

Uh- modeler should suit you just fine in this regard Bog.....:D

Bog
07-15-2006, 01:32 PM
Uh- modeler should suit you just fine in this regard Bog.....:D

*grips heart, keels over*

:P

Intuition
07-15-2006, 01:43 PM
I think the main disappointment about this situation is that most software packages are trying to make the F-Prime-like previewer an industry standard.

Modo and XSI have similar previewers now. It shows that everyone is heading towards the direction of realtime or near realtime previews.

Lightwave had an edge with this feature with the advent of F-Prime. Now, I don't think most people are complaining much about Newteks effort with Lw9 as it was a good effort. The Beta test process was a great experience and I hope they do it again. Yet, this being said, I can't help but feel bittersweet about the end result.

On one hand we have the best lightwave ever released. On top of that, many features that were constantly asked for like Z-Brush compatibility, Native SSS, Anistropy, improved render time, improved voxels, etc, were totally addressed. It is really nice to havethese things now. I think most people will give Newtek credit for this effort and can see that if they stay with this level of effort in development that LW will stay strong in the market.

On the other hand I can't help but think about Modo 201 when thinking about F-Prime and Lw9's current situation.

It does alot of really nice things VERY QUICKLY. You can see them ALL in the previewer. Every single little thing you can do with the render engine is seeable in the preview window. AMAZING.

But, of course. 201 is really a modeler with rendering capabilities and until they can animate it is only half a product for me since I need animation as well.

Now, all that being said, I don't think I'll ever like any other interface and workflow as much as I like the Lightwave/Modeler workflow. So, here I stay.

What most people want to see at this point, f-prime or not, is an integrated previewer for LW9 that is like the modo 201 previewer. Not only that but Modos GI renders REALLY FAST. Perhaps radiosity/GI speeds/optimizations will be addressed in future LW9 releases.

In my opinion Lightwave is almost there. Lw9 is a great release, no doubt but there are still 2 more things I would like to add to its current set of features to make it an industry leader.

1. F-Prime / Modo 201 style previewer that works with all the new features.

2. Faster renders/solutions for Radiosity and GI. Currently Lightwave's native Monte Carlo is the slowest GI across all packages I believe and my use of Radiosity in Lightwave was soley through F-Prime. I never once really used it through 6.5 through 9 much without F-Prime. Maybe a BG radiosity was used here and there but monte carlo was not. If Modo had animation capabilities I can already tell I could use GI in every render. It would not be a "nice feature' like salt on top. It would be used in every render because the previewer works and the final renders are fast.

These two things, a previewer that works with all features and faster GI solutions, would pretty much put the frosting and cherry on a nice cake.

Yet, because of Worley's seemingly optimistic tone in his updated webpage, despite knowing that no new f-prime would be bad news for all, it tells me that either something else is in the works or that solutions are not far off.

Don't ask me why I want to bite that bait, but I do.

I think that my 2 wishes above will be addressed before too long.

Ok, thats my 3 cents. Logging off.

KillMe
07-15-2006, 02:10 PM
anyone else worry about Fprime for max appearing and us lwers being left out in the cold

Bog
07-15-2006, 02:14 PM
anyone else worry about Fprime for max appearing and us lwers being left out in the cold

Every night for the last seven months, usually at about 3am.

KillMe
07-15-2006, 02:38 PM
at least not the only one worring that worleys time is being taken up making a max version

Panikos
07-15-2006, 02:40 PM
Lets be honest and see things in their real perspective.

Even if Newtek plans to make an FPrime-like tool, it will never be as fast and as powerful as FPrime.
Why they havent made one before, you need VISION to make such tools.
Even simpler requests never fullfilled, dont ask them such miracles.

I can bet anything on this !
:devil:
If you think that Newtek can compete Worley, then most probably its your first days in the LW world.

Beaker
07-15-2006, 02:46 PM
I don't think it's impossible for the company that makes the product to make a better version of an aftermarket product, but let's say you're right.

Considering FPrime costs almost as much as a full license of LightWave, if NewTek were to make their own FPrime, or improve VIPER, I could live with it being a bit less powerful.

tyrot
07-15-2006, 02:55 PM
Every night for the last seven months, usually at about 3am.
dear bog

tooo funny!:D ...


Even if Newtek plans to make an FPrime-like tool, it will never be as fast and as powerful as FPrime.

if they start to do it.. you will see it will be faster. (ref: Electric Image)
...i will remind you this post.. :deal:


you are intentionally underestimating Jay and the Newtekers for some reason i dont wanna even guess. and comparing old team (or NO TEAM) days with these days.

It is time to wake up. this will change some people's current business. NT can make drastic changes.

BEST

Thomas M.
07-15-2006, 02:59 PM
O.k., after reading through 6 pages in this thread I guess it's time to stop talking about it as everything as far as I can see has been said. The only thing which is missing is a statement from NT, Chuck or whoever. Judging from NT's statement in the past about NT and W "working together", the present situation somehow looks completly different. So calling what has been said a lie is a bit far fetched, calling it misleading on the other hand is a bit mild. So, as nobody "really" knows what the status quo is (though reading through W's statement is looks pretty clear) NT should actually pretty fast comment on this issue. This might not change the situation right now, but an honest answer would make it possible to plan the workflow for the near future. I guess NT owes an answer to all displeased customers who took confidence in the statement which has been made. Hopefully not only to soothe everybody.

Cheers
Thomas

tektonik
07-15-2006, 03:17 PM
where is it writen that worley is developing a MAX version of fprime ?

KillMe
07-15-2006, 03:22 PM
its not - but we fear it - as if worley dropped lw - would be a disaster

Verlon
07-15-2006, 03:39 PM
I read it as "LW9 did not break FPrime. You can use it just like you did before.

"Furthermore, There are plans in place to make FPrime work with nodes, but we have to leave some wiggle room for legal reasons in case the programming lottery pool pays off and we suddenly find ourselves without coders."

Its just a feature that wasn't finished in time for the LW9.0 release. Relax. Its coming.

In the mean time, we'll just have to hit F9 if we want to use nodes.

As long as I am waiting, I'd like hair that reflects in SAS2.

Worley is working on something (they have to eat.....not going to get much at the grocery store with outdated plugins).

So what say we give them at least a month to figure out what is going on.

Exception
07-15-2006, 03:48 PM
To me it feels very simple...

- Someome lied, but I don't know who.
- Fprime doesnt work well in lw9 at all.
- This is yet another major disappointment. How many more before you switch?

And I don't care about the marketing jargon. Months ago we were told by Newtek that Fprime was important to them and that they were working closely with Steve to improve Fprime specifically. Worley quite simply says the hooks arn't there. We accepted Newtek's failure to yet again address radiosity issues because Fprime can handle this, and they were going to really open up the SDK and help Worley. This has been said in context of lw 9.0, not specifically the 9.x cycle.
Very sad, disappointed, getting tired of the stupid communication and beating around the bush.

stevecullum
07-15-2006, 03:55 PM
This is yet another major disappointment. How many more before you switch?

Err.. never..not unless NT goes out of business. Its a great piece of software with or without Worley!

tyrot
07-15-2006, 04:12 PM
Err.. never..not unless NT goes out of business. Its a great piece of software with or without Worley!
dear steve

totally :agree:

best

kfinla
07-15-2006, 04:13 PM
I'm trying to look at things the same way Verlon is.. that LW 9 didn't break things, that things have only been added to the sdk, the old has not been changed. Which i guess is the norm with lightwave, paint over the rust.

I think ppl would have been a lot happier if the worley site had said anything about what it has in the works, what there is to look forward to. Rather then its been 9 months since we updated our site, and we have nothing to report. But rest assured were busy.

I own all the worley plugs, and have been asking about sas2 for 2+ yrs.. probably longer really..

I know its silly but I use alot of software, Fprime is pretty much the main reason I run Lightwave layout these days.

APS, nodes, lenses etc are the reasons I would upgrade to 9, so with no support for any of those things with Fprime, its looks like ill be holding off upgrading even longer. One of the main reasons I have modo 201 is for the displacement support.

I currently think Fprime gives higher quality images then modo 201 (v1.0 of the renderer), so I have to say my CC basically went back into my wallet after taking another look at the LW landscape and seeing nothing is there for me yet. If worley had said here is this revolutionary new tool, or SAS2, or Fprime 2.5 etc and u need LW9.. i probably would have jumped. Now it looks like modo 202, or 203 will be out by the time we have all the lW 9.x features and worley plugs working together.

I do have a naive hope that perhaps this working closely with NT and Worley has been for a new product, or sasquatch 2, using layout modelling tools etc.. we just all assume its for Fprime which, ofcourse needs to keep supporting more and more of LW's functionality.

3DBob
07-15-2006, 04:13 PM
Spare some thought for Steve and his team, they have patiently been waiting for NT to go gold - for 7 months +, so they have not known what would be final for them to work with and worley does not like to release buggy software. In fact he prides himself in the labs releases. This open beta thing has been a great exercise for the participants and LW - but for 3rd party developers it has meant a release that kept getting pushed back.

It would be unbelievable if NT were still not aware of how important FP and its advancement is to LW.

If Steve says his team has been busier than ever - I believe him.

The problem for me is that I took it for granted that NT new that FP was increadibly important and they had released statements to reflect their acknowledgement of this fact. This meant users did not hound them about ensuring the collaboration between WL&NT was fruitful in a timely fashion, because they thought it was a given. They persued other bug squishing and feature requests as you would expect.

Now it appears we should have been keeping the pressure up over integration of FP (I don't mean bringing it in-house). LW9 is a brilliant piece of software - but i still feel Duped. The biggest bug in LW9 is the Biggest bug in LW8 - it appears to not allow FP to be programmed to work with it fully.

NT please squish this bug.

3DBob

Bog
07-15-2006, 04:20 PM
NT please squish this bug.

*level gaze*

Bob, I've known you a long time, but really. Seven months - no update. LW9 gets released - and a nothing update. I'm sorry, I really am, but I've been carrying the NewTek can for a lot longer than I've been carrying the Worley Labs can. I've had an ongoing gripe about spending more on Worley Labs than I have on NewTek, and today my fears were made real. If Chuck says that NT have been "working closely" with Worley, then they have. ****, the whole Joe Alter thing should show how closely they value Worley!

No, I'm sorry. Whether it was a case of Worley dropping the ball - and let's face it, with at least 5,000 people giving him $400, that's an awful big party he could throw - or simply having committed himself to something he couldn't actually realise, this is on Worley. If for nothing other than having a proper explanation of what we can expect in the coming cycle.

I feel duped, too. I've paid over the sale-price of LightWave in my Worley Tax, and what have I got?

LightWave 8 with quicker radiosity.

Bloody marvellous.

Panikos
07-15-2006, 04:29 PM
Its a great piece of software with or without Worley!

People say that LW is a plugin to FPrime, if you know what I mean.

KillMe
07-15-2006, 04:31 PM
as i point out i dont have any doubt worley is busier than ever but is he working on a plugin for lightwave? or another app? thats the question - as clearly tis not Fprime ( lightwave version ) hes been working on

and the way thigns seem to go if he starts developing for another app then we can wave goodbuy to the lightwave development

and nope its not worley thats dropped the ball - if the links aren't there they aren't there and with them saying that its possible that they might appear at some point in the future well frankly tahts not encoraging

Bog
07-15-2006, 04:31 PM
People say that LW is a plugin to FPrime, if you know what I mean.

.... Pan old friend, that's too harsh. Especially with 9's new capabilities.

Kurtis
07-15-2006, 04:34 PM
People, please keep this civil on both sides.

Yes, Worley posted an announcment. No, we have not said anything in response. It's not our normal polcy to comment on the development of third-party products, and like it or not, that's what FPrime is. The fact we've made specific statements about Worley and FPrime in the past should show we ralize how attached many of out customers feel to their products.

I can't give an answer on this, that would have to come from a level higher than mine, but keep one thing in mind. Neither of these threads started until after we closed yesterday, more than a day after the release of LightWave v9, and it's been well known for a long time that most of our people were going to be in LA for the launch event this weekend.

Exception
07-15-2006, 04:39 PM
Well it was just a dumb thing to release a piece of software on friday. Its well known in the industry. If something goes wrong, and it always does, during the weekend the people that are not out partying will be setting fire to the product, and that's what happening.

Bog
07-15-2006, 04:41 PM
Well it was just a dumb thing to release a piece of software on friday.

Oh, come on! If they'd waited 'til monday, then everyone would've spent the weekend ripping bits out of 'em for not releasing earlier!

darneded if you do, darneded if you don't.

This "offensive language" filter hampers me.

Kurtis
07-15-2006, 04:42 PM
I guess I need to post this in this thread too.

LightWave v9 was not released on Friday. It was released just before Noon CST on Thursday. I don't believe this is Friday anywhere in the world, except maybe Australia.

Exception
07-15-2006, 04:44 PM
Ok, my bad. I only got the release notice on friday.
Appreciate the feedback anyway.

Unfortunately, I could have predicted this mess. I just never thought something to do with Worley would be the issue to spark the flame. I'm afraid there's more coming too. My lightwave doesnt even start up, and I know what I'm doing... usually.

KillMe
07-15-2006, 04:54 PM
to be honest i dont see what difference it make - lw 9 itself is great - its just that the worley situation isn't what we thought and has dispointed alot of users

knowone expected fprime with nodes to be deleivered jsut yet - but a little note from worley saying yay lw 9 is great isn't it and soon you'll be able to play with it and fprime together and everyone woudl be cheering adn there wouldn't be a single complaint against lw9

i mean its pretty good as it is that the only complaint is 3rd party orintated

Exception
07-15-2006, 05:02 PM
I'm happy for you that lw9 is working out for you.
But it's a disapointment for us over here.
And it shouldn't have been released with this many critical bugs.
Like I said, it doesn't even run on a clean install here. You've got to do some gymnastics first. The hub is still terrible, and more flakey than ever, and oh.... don't even make me start about the toilet roll of legacy bugs.

Anyway, I've participated as best as I could in the open beta program, and voiced all my grievances there, so there's not much constructive left to say. I am sure everybody worked hard and all that.
I like the design of the box, but I gather we early upgraders arn't getting that either.

Ok, well, back to 8.5. With Fprime.

3DBob
07-15-2006, 05:06 PM
Firstly thankyou to kurtis for posting.

As I said before 9 is a brilliant piece of software - I'm rendering with it all this weekend, and I'm using FP to check my LW Sticky front projection (as OGL doesn't show it properly) and G2 Luminous shadow darkening are working with shadows casting correctly before I go to render the unreal/LW cell shaded finished frames in LW.

I think a trick has been missed here though - New FP and 9 at SG would have been astounding - but I wouldn't mind betting that Worley has something special for SG - even if its just a bunch of cool algorithms detailed in white papers. I'm hoping that it is a fluids engine (pure speculation) - worley likes to take things lightwave can't do well and make a market leading plugin.

But i'd still prefer FP3 with nodes (including APS/diplacements) and maybe new cameras. FP improves the experience of everything in Layout except of course those things it cant!

LWCAD 1.5 / 2 for me is THE example of a good partnership between NT and a 3rd party. Viktor for me is the king of modeler, and worley, layout. I just hope I dont have to wait for SG+1 before we see something.

3DBob

Kurtis
07-15-2006, 05:07 PM
Large numbers of users are working with the program. This is computer software though, and there are always going to be some users experiencing issues. Ive yet to see a software release from any company with 100% positive results.

Exception, if you are still experiencing issues on Monday please contact Technical Support at [email protected] or 1-210-341-8444, and they should be able to get you going. If they can't, please feel free to contact me directly with specifics, and I will do my best to find out what I can for you.

Original1
07-15-2006, 05:07 PM
At the risk of being cynical, I have noticed that in the past Worley releases have nearly always been timed to coinside with siggraph , that is when he gets maximum marketing bang for the buck, being a small company he needs to be sure that his investment of programming effort maximises his return, If I was in his shoes that what I would do, there is no point building your house on shifting sand, and a changing SDK that is still in development is just that. I sencible programmer would wait for a stable release before commiting man hours to development that he would have to recode if the goal post moved.

Maybe there will be new tools at siggraph.

Exception
07-15-2006, 05:12 PM
Kurtis, that's nice, but I filed bug reports about it weeks ago already, and the decision clearly has been made to let this one slip through.

Fine.
I can get it running by hacking into the config files by hand, or disabling the hub. But I don't really care anymore anyway. I only paid little for the upgrade, and the little money I did pay I am sure has been put to good use. I am going back to 8.5 because if Fprime doesn;t render it, I;m not using it, and 8.5 is considerably more responsive and more stable.

Good luck with the release troubles.

Verlon
07-15-2006, 05:17 PM
What Original1 said....

It is entirely possible.....and quite likely....that Worley is working toward that end, but had to wait until the program wasn't getting updated faster than he could download it.

While the feature set was frozen a while back, the code wasn't. Again, lets just wait a month (or even a freakin' week) before we decide that the world has come to an end.

I am sure Worley has been busy. He's had almost a year to release Sasquatch 64 and FPrime 64, but nothing......it was quite a while just to get Sas32 and FPrime32 to work with 64 bit dongle drivers in LW32 (and they said then they were busy on something big).

I have LW64. Hmmm.

Like I said. He needs to eat, so he's working on something. Lets see what is listed at Sigraph before we start the witch hunt (for either Newtek or Worley).

Kurtis
07-15-2006, 05:19 PM
Exception,

It may have been that the bugs you were reporting were not reproducible reliably by the development team when you reported them. With the number of possible hardware/driver/software combinations possible these days, this is unavoidable. Even I've been able to post bugs that cannot be addressed yet for this reason. I use five different machines, and only one experiences the issues. Judging by the number of people using the software successfully, I would guess that to be the most likely answer with yours as well.

Either way, the choice to use the upgrade is yours. If you decide you want help getting v9 operating on your particular system, the resources will still be available for you when you're ready.

theo
07-15-2006, 06:18 PM
Lets see what is listed at Sigraph before we start the witch hunt (for either Newtek or Worley).

Neither Newtek or Worley have done anything to bring this kind of rhetoric on themselves. So I say hang up the witch hunt idea no matter what happens.

I for one am not going to just sit here and let Newtek get hammered for a perceived sin over a third party plugin.

Newtek is probably one of the most communicative software companies on the planet and as far as I am concerned if you are only a LW user because of FPrime this speaks volumes in terms of your commitment to the Lightwave product as a whole. Grousing here in the forums about the fact that you ONLY or primarily use LW because of FPrime is not going to win you a whole lot of understanding from hardcore wavers.

I have much more understanding and empathy for a heavy LW user that has FPrime built into his pipeline.

gristle
07-15-2006, 06:50 PM
I guess I need to post this in this thread too.

LightWave v9 was not released on Friday. It was released just before Noon CST on Thursday. I don't believe this is Friday anywhere in the world, except maybe Australia.

Hmm...its Sunday here in NZ already:)

Kurtis
07-15-2006, 06:56 PM
By the way, apologies if that sounded harsh when I posted it. Reading it now, it might have.

What I meant was, I think Noon CST Thursday would have still been Thursday in Australia, or VERY early Friday.

Panikos
07-15-2006, 07:58 PM
theo, compare the majority vs minority.

Personally I had some expectations, I wrote some, not many even though I should have many as many years before.
After the release of FPrime, me and many expected further convergence, Volumetric Lights, Shader Plugins, LensFlare, ImageFilters, PixelFilter, LWSN with FPrime, its been 2 years : NONE of the above happened cause Newtek couldnt do anything or "had different priorities" (to use their vocabulary)

All the indications after OpenBeta and my personal fears came true. Newtek wasnt doing anything related to FPrime. They wrote a FAQ to settle down the situation that they are working with Worley. Recently we see the truth.
Not even new developments are compatible with FPrime unless Newtek makes the extra steps.
The truth is that Newtek made as much as possible to release something with 7 months delay, not to mention my impressions from the Open Beta.

Its a matter of reliability. If you cant do something, at least have the guts to be honest, dont lie/torch thousands of people.
It doesnt matter if I had plans and dreams, ambitions for LW. I reconciliated with the idea that Newtek cannot progress at the expected level or is moving in an unpredictable direction.

I love LW but it fails to serve me today. Its not about features, competition shines and makes LW look ancient and slow.
FPrime was the last hope, Newtek cannot follow and even it come, it will be very late.

Matt
07-15-2006, 09:02 PM
I don't get it, what does the Friday / Thursday release date thing have to do with anything? It's not like the issue at hand here is gonna be solved on Monday is it? Or is it?

Wouldn't we all look silly if a patch was right round the corner!

Chris S. (Fez)
07-15-2006, 09:05 PM
This is severely dissapointing news. Maybe Worley will surprise us at Siggraph.

Earl
07-15-2006, 09:06 PM
competition shines and makes LW look ancient and slow
Pan, I think this was the problem. The way the old code was setup (by the old dev team) it was simply not possible for NewTek to move as quickly as the users and the industry needed. So I say congrats to NewTek for coming up with a design to save the LW code by restructuring it in such a way to allow for fast and stable updates. The SDK issues Worley has could very well be addressed by the very completion of this structure change. We are just now coming to the end of this parallel changeover (I believe), only then can we truly judge how efficient LightWave can evolve.

From the things I've heard, I think it's working. I was a little disappointed by Worley's statement, but I don't blame NewTek and I can get a LOT of use out of LightWave without FPrime.

cathuria
07-15-2006, 09:06 PM
I probably should, but I can't resist adding my two cents (or more like two shiny pebbles...)

Yes, FPrime became critical to my workflow... and I am bittelry disappointed by this news.
But the tool I use to create art is LW and the one thing I hoped for most, a nodal surfacing system, was realized in spades in LW9. I am sad to lose FPrime, but it IS FPrime that I am losing, not Lightwave.

I will be appropriately joyous when (if) FPrime becomes fully functional again. But after hearing Worley himself say that he thinks it works just fine with LW9 as it is... I have to say he's dead wrong on that one.

In the light of that statement I shall be entirely inappropriately joyous if Newtek announces a new radiosity code that makes FPrime look like last week's bait.

<sigh> I hope that didn't sound too nasty... I really am hoping for better news from Worley... but I would be even happier with improvements to LW's native radiosity.

Until then... it's back to using my spare laptop as a render farm (render petunia patch?) for those four day renders.

Earl
07-15-2006, 09:12 PM
I don't get it, what does the Friday / Thursday release date thing have to do with anything?
It's simple Matt. A release on Friday can mean only one thing: defection! They'll grab as much cash as they can carry and run for the border!! :dance:

hrgiger
07-15-2006, 09:12 PM
Wasn't there another thread recently where someone was complaining and they said that Newtek should not have released the Node editor until everything was completely worked out (and I think the SDK/Fprime connection was part of the argument). Chuck replied that the Node editor, while not fully up to everyone's standards quite yet, was still a very powerful and functional portion of Lightwave and Newtek felt its capabilities far outweighed it's few current limitations.

I'd have to agree.

Thanks to the new node editiing capabilities in 9, we now have a completely new way to surface and many new surface capabilities such as SSS, ansitropic shading, and several others. People have been screaming for SSS for sometime now in Lightwave, now we have it and of course, people still find something to complain about. I'm sure that Newtek is working on the problem and not sitting around playing freecell until the whistle blows at quitting time.

I would love for Fprime to see Node surfaces (heck, I'm still waiting for volumetrics to show in preview mode), but in the meantime, I'm quite happy that we have the Node editor now instead of waiting for a version that will work with FPrime.

Cageman
07-15-2006, 10:38 PM
Wasn't there another thread recently where someone was complaining and they said that Newtek should not have released the Node editor until everything was completely worked out (and I think the SDK/Fprime connection was part of the argument). Chuck replied that the Node editor, while not fully up to everyone's standards quite yet, was still a very powerful and functional portion of Lightwave and Newtek felt its capabilities far outweighed it's few current limitations.

I'd have to agree.

Thanks to the new node editiing capabilities in 9, we now have a completely new way to surface and many new surface capabilities such as SSS, ansitropic shading, and several others. People have been screaming for SSS for sometime now in Lightwave, now we have it and of course, people still find something to complain about. I'm sure that Newtek is working on the problem and not sitting around playing freecell until the whistle blows at quitting time.

I would love for Fprime to see Node surfaces (heck, I'm still waiting for volumetrics to show in preview mode), but in the meantime, I'm quite happy that we have the Node editor now instead of waiting for a version that will work with FPrime.

Amen! :agree:

RedBull
07-15-2006, 10:54 PM
Pan, I think this was the problem. The way the old code was setup (by the old dev team) it was simply not possible for NewTek to move as quickly as the users and the industry needed. So I say congrats to NewTek for coming up with a design to save the LW code by restructuring it in such a way to allow for fast and stable updates. The SDK issues Worley has could very well be addressed by the very completion of this structure change. We are just now coming to the end of this parallel changeover (I believe), only then can we truly judge how efficient LightWave can evolve.


Sorry, but we haven't even begun a real Parrallel Changeover... If we had we wouldn't be having this discussion obviously. Parrallel changeover is a nice way of saying we can't fix it when it's this broken. But we can still sell you a band-aid to help stop the bleeding for the meantime.

Basically those in the know, KNOW Lightwave will never be able to share it's shaders with other parties. Nodal made sense, because it allowed a connection to be made to new shaders from third parties, and allow new Nodal query shader data sharing.

I don't recall Nodal being the most asked for feature of LW9 (it may be one of the most popular now) many of us had 70% of the usable features from TB Shadertree. I do remember a lot of people asking for better SDK integration for 3rd party tools though...

Instead we get a new Nodal system which is only integrated into 3 areas,
does not allow access to third parties, and really seemed to of cost a lot of the development time. While being told at the same time from multiple NT sources, that Nodal is fine and SDK hooks have been implemented for 3rd parties. Which obviously it wasn't....

This is after being told right up until December 25th (or after) that LW9 was still on target for a 4th quarter release too. (what month now?)

In the end as Panikos mentions, rather than attempt to lead us on in regards to NT's future plans and intentions with the SDK, they should just have more guts and told us the truth, and said NO LW's core and SDK is really **** and likely not much we can do to make it better. Rather than just waiting to the last minute to be caught out in yet another false promise. Creating intense public outbursts which have dilouted the fanfare of release....

LW needs to remember it's a plugin bases system that relies on 3rd parties
unlike Maya or XSI. It's complete lack of attention to this area in multiple releases, are worrying.

Meanwhile Blender 2.42 adds a complete Nodal system and a wealth of new features and adds a nice preview renderer as well, revised fluids, array tool
renderpasses, OpenEXR, and too many other features to mention, all released in just a 2.41 to 2.42 release cycle. (gee that's impressive)
http://www.blender.org/cms/Blender_2_42.727.0.html

As for: Maybe we will get a surprise from Worley at Siggraph?
Worley has already been smart enough on the first day of LW9 release
and NDA release that this is entirely the fault of NT. (well done too)
This shows until NEWTEK upgrade LW9SDK worley cannot upgrade Fprime/G2.


Wouldn't we all look silly if a patch was right round the corner!

Why?

Wouldn't NT look silly if they got to the end of a 7month beta cycle, and didn't have a patch right around the corner? YES, YES they DO!

Wouldn't NT all look silly if a patch was not right around the corner
and they spent 12months on public forums telling us it was already done?
Yes, Yes they do....

Wouldn't the townspeople really get sick of "the boy who cried wolf"
or in this case "The company that claimed it was fixed"

Eventually when NT do need the townspeople to help them... All of the townspeople will of run of to other towns. Nobody likes wolfcriers!

At the end of the day, i think Worley and Nodal will work together, (and fairly soon) and i'm sure a Fprime/Sas2 link is also in the works.

But the problem here is NT did not see this as an issue of importance for it's userbase, despite contant promises of "it's being done" 150 messages and 3500 views in 24hours, show just how wrong NT were... And usually are when it comes to matters of importance and SDK issues.

Gee the CA toolset improvements for the 9.x just sound so much more believable now. ;)

TSpyrison
07-16-2006, 12:10 AM
Wow, I don’t think there is enough cheese in the world...

One thing, I love F-Prime, but I’ve always used it as a previewer. Not a render. I think its limited as far as having to crank up the display subdivision levels to equal what you’d want for the render subdivision levels. How would that work with Adaptive Subdivision? I’m not a programmer, but I don’t think it would..

Lightwave 9 is great. I can’t wait to see what else is coming from this dev team.

F-Prime is great. I’d love for it to work with nodes. Someday it may, or may not. Either way, I’m not going to loose sleep over it and will continue using both.

Cesar Montero
07-16-2006, 12:33 AM
Well at the risk of sounding blunt, that's just pathetic....

The responses from Chuck, and press releases from Jay which we have been told for the majority of the Beta period that they are working closely with Worley labs and 3rd party developers and this will be improved.
Yet, day one of release and Worley has already announced otherwise.
Once again we find ourselves with no improvements to allow tools like Fprime
to extend the capabilities of LW that NT have themselves managed to ignore

Yeah, I kind of feel sad.
I hope something comes along to change this situation.

Cesar Montero
07-16-2006, 12:36 AM
Meanwhile Blender 2.42 adds a complete Nodal system and a wealth of new features and adds a nice preview renderer as well, revised fluids, array tool
renderpasses, OpenEXR, and too many other features to mention, all released in just a 2.41 to 2.42 release cycle. (gee that's impressive)
http://www.blender.org/cms/Blender_2_42.727.0.html

preview render? nice!
Thanks for this notice.
I'll check it out, good thing it is free!:hey:

robk
07-16-2006, 12:37 AM
Just as a matter of interest. Who thinks that Steve sits around all day working on his plugins for LW or waitng for a phone call from Newtek for LW updates. I have had conversations with Steve back in my Imagine days in the mid 90's and I always had the impression he made most of his living from Custom programming for Hollywood studios and special effects houses. I think the plugins he did for Imagine and LW after are just a sidline business. Take a poll of 3rd party developers for LW and find out if ANY of them actually make a living from the profits from their plugins for LW.
I think you would be hard pressed to find one such case and that includes Steve Worley.
I personally use Fprime for production every working day any sometimes at night and weekends, and as many have noted it is our advantage over some of the other mainstream programs.

Does it do nodal? (sure with Visual texture from nodalideas it does) Not with LW.
Does it handle shaders? No.
Does it network render? No
Did it keep LW as a Mainstream competitve product? You bet your sweet A**
it does.

If Newtek can't see there butt was saved (in the professional community) by Fprime then I'm a monkey's uncle (as the saying goes)

I like most other Fprime users was hoping for a annoucement from Worley labs when LW 9 was released and I along with many others was disapointed.

Looking on the bright side I can still use my Fprime and my upgrade to LW9 I bought is just more money out of my companies bottom line with many features I will not even attempt to learn untill the Fprime hooks are implemented.

Cesar Montero
07-16-2006, 12:51 AM
Kurtis:

Is there something in development as a LW previewer made by Newtek?

Why do I ask:
I feel that there is too much trust in Worley labs as compared to the communication that is going on between both sides. If Newtek is not willing to cooperate with Worley labs as we users need to, I would love to get a previewer built inside LW that works the same or better! (Hey, even Maxwell has a fast previewer now).
:)

F9 render is faster now, but being a texture/light artist is harder without a previewer.
We can just make Lightwave shine to its best with a previewer.

digital verve
07-16-2006, 12:58 AM
Looking on the bright side I can still use my Fprime and my upgrade to LW9 I bought is just more money out of my companies bottom line with many features I will not even attempt to learn untill the Fprime hooks are implemented.

I think you are shooting yourself in your foot then. :)

For my business the new LW renderer with all the new cool tools will be a great asset and impress my clients more which equals more money. One scene I have renders 3 times faster now than on 8.5. That's like having an extra 2 machines to render on just with the LW 9 upgrade. I don't really use radiosity so that's probably why I'm more easy going about it all than some others who rely on FPrime for speed in that area.

Frankly if Newtek get radiosity sped up a good amount, replaced Viper with a speedy fully working interactive realtime previewer that works with everything, then we would not need Worley FPrime for most things anymore.

Nemoid
07-16-2006, 01:44 AM
A good built - in preview renderer or a boosted Viper could be great and also lets not forget about PIM project.

The problem IMHO is not FPrime. the problem is that SDK have to be opened so that ALL third party developers can make great plugings able to fully integrate with Lw, and exploit nodes too .

Incidentally, its so true that Worley first develops for Hollywood studios and other private clients.
He then releases commercial versions of his plugs after some time, when contract is not valid anymore.

A good move from Newtek could also be to buy Fprime or pay Worley and provide him complete support for his work.

Wickster
07-16-2006, 02:18 AM
Here's my take on this statement:

"LW 9's SDK refinements have very little impact on existing LW plugins, so nearly all LW 8 tools will work in LW 9. All of our plugins, FPrime, Sasquatch, G2, Polk, and Taft, work in LightWave 9. There is no use or need for new LightWave 9 specific versions." = Our plugins still work for the meantime, so please be patient and give us more time.

That's what I think anyways.

Verlon
07-16-2006, 02:38 AM
exactly....and the rest f that statement seems to indicate that the needed SDK update is coming (probably indicating that there is a reason why it isn't out yet).

There are a lot of things planned for the 9.x develop cycle. Maybe NT just doesn't want to go through this again with 9.5 when they add instancing or something like that.

colkai
07-16-2006, 03:17 AM
I read it as "LW9 did not break FPrime. You can use it just like you did before.

"Furthermore, There are plans in place to make FPrime work with nodes, but we have to leave some wiggle room for legal reasons in case the programming lottery pool pays off and we suddenly find ourselves without coders."

You know, I though it was only me who took this perspective. :)

js33
07-16-2006, 03:26 AM
I expect to see some updated info from Worley and or Newtek on the Node issue very soon. In the meantime I will get some more cheese.:D

colkai
07-16-2006, 03:34 AM
Neither Newtek or Worley have done anything to bring this kind of rhetoric on themselves. So I say hang up the witch hunt idea no matter what happens.

I for one am not going to just sit here and let Newtek get hammered for a perceived sin over a third party plugin.

Newtek is probably one of the most communicative software companies on the planet

>> Wild applause <<<
Sanity, ahh, what a refreshing change. :)

digital verve
07-16-2006, 03:45 AM
Next before you know it, someone will be blaming Newtek for the price of parking tickets at their launch event. :tongue:

Matt
07-16-2006, 03:52 AM
You know what, after sleeping on this, this could all be a bit of a knee jerk reaction.

Worley probably just phrased the statement badly, NT ARE working on opening up LW, so maybe it's just taking a little longer than expected, I mean, I for one was VERY surprised with just how much work was done in bringing LW9 to the fold.

If we continue this b!tching WE could well put Worley off developing for what could appear a hostile community, I dunno, maybe!

Yes it was a bit of a unexpected blow, but let's see what happens eh!

:)

Matt

kfiram
07-16-2006, 04:02 AM
Worley probably just phrased the statement badly, NT ARE working on opening up LW, so maybe it's just taking a little longer than expected


I wish to God that's true.
The way Worley put it, it sound like it *might* get fixed *sometime* in the future.
If we got a straight answer (from Worley or Newtek) that it *will definitely* be fixed in the *foreseeable* future, I'll retain my confidence in both parties and forget about the whole incident.

faulknermano
07-16-2006, 04:34 AM
I'm trying to look at things the same way Verlon is.. that LW 9 didn't break things, that things have only been added to the sdk, the old has not been changed. Which i guess is the norm with lightwave, paint over the rust.


i dont know if you ever developed a piece of code before, but if LW9 didnt break anything i should be happy about it.

for example, i'm doing an "overhaul" of maya2lw2, an exporter system i'm working on, with special attention to its previously-poorly-designed file format and because i have several active projects using the proprietary file format, i cant simply throw the code away. what happens, and i suspect newtek does on a larger scale, is to keep my existing code and add functions on the side that is utilised for that revision. in reality, the old has not been changed, but new code is there.

i'm not sure if that's a "parallel changeover" but on a small scale, it keeps the software functioning while i'm working on the new stuff.

Kurtis
07-16-2006, 04:47 AM
Some are making the assumption that the majority of all LightWave users are concerned by what they assume, by a relatively brief statement from only one side, is the current relationship of LightWave v9/FPrime. The majority of LightWave users do not participate in the forums. The majority of users who do are not participating in this thread. You can only accurately speak for the majority of users participating in this thread to say that they are concerned about the situation.

We understand that a lot of users are attached to FPrime. As I said earlier, since we don't make development statements for other third-party products, and we wouldn't have addressed FPrime publicly if we didn't. Assuming you are in the majority is human nature, but overstating the statistics is not going to force a change if one is not already in place, coming or under consideration.

oDDity
07-16-2006, 04:53 AM
Heh, a very common flaw in all forum posts everywhere.

Cageman
07-16-2006, 05:03 AM
If Newtek can't see there butt was saved (in the professional community) by Fprime then I'm a monkey's uncle (as the saying goes)


Hmm... for the VFX-guys, yes, FPrime did add alot of speed to their workflow, but in the end, they usually render everything on a renderfarm, thus meaning they use LW native renderer. Wether or not FPrime would have been released at all, I don't really see why companies such as DD, R&H, Zoic and Rainmaker would ditch LW. If these companies would use FPrime to texture and light, they surley can use LW9 and the new cameras to render alot faster than before. Yes, they can't use Nodal... but since I've seen some great work coming from these companies using LW8.x, they can probably survive the FPrime/Nodal issue until it can get resolved and use other features of LW9 to get the job done faster.

Relax people... :)

Kurtis
07-16-2006, 05:08 AM
Kurtis:

Is there something in development as a LW previewer made by Newtek?

Why do I ask:
I feel that there is too much trust in Worley labs as compared to the communication that is going on between both sides. If Newtek is not willing to cooperate with Worley labs as we users need to, I would love to get a previewer built inside LW that works the same or better! (Hey, even Maxwell has a fast previewer now).
:)

F9 render is faster now, but being a texture/light artist is harder without a previewer.
We can just make Lightwave shine to its best with a previewer.

Sorry, but this is something that no one here could make an official statement on one way or another.

Verlon
07-16-2006, 05:10 AM
You know, I though it was only me who took this perspective. :)

Nah, life is too short to go around thinking the glass is half empty (and in some cases even emptier due to evaporation).

Besides...anyone who thinks Lightwave is unstable should try running some of these tools I use at work.

I guess I can see getting bent over an $800 piece of software that doesn't do everything you expected it to, but it is nothing compared to finding system crashing bugs in a $3 million dollar piece of hardware (or in one case, a network glitch in a million dollar tool that shut down a $2 BILLION facility for several hours).

cresshead
07-16-2006, 05:43 AM
just to put some feet back on the floor....
1.f prime still works in lw9...
2.f prime can still be used to set up lighting with the previewer...
3.you can CHOOSE weather to use nodes or not so you can CHOOSE wether to use f prime radiosity or not as well...

all is not lost...really!

3DEagle
07-16-2006, 06:37 AM
Sorry, but this is something that no one here could make an official statement on one way or another.

Seems like you just did!!! :ohmy:

Enjoy Sunshine in Life

Ole

colkai
07-16-2006, 07:17 AM
Nah, life is too short to go around thinking the glass is half empty (and in some cases even emptier due to evaporation).

Besides...anyone who thinks Lightwave is unstable should try running some of these tools I use at work.
Dang! - I hear that loud N clear, I can't even begin to describe how bad some of the stuff I have to put up with is. :p

Life is indeed, far too short, and can be shorter than you think too.

Kurtis
07-16-2006, 07:59 AM
http://www.newtek.com/forums/showthread.php?t=54069

theo
07-16-2006, 08:21 AM
3.you can CHOOSE weather to use nodes or not so you can CHOOSE wether to use f prime radiosity or not as well...

all is not lost...really!

But, but...shouldn't nodal forecasts be left up to experts?

cresshead
07-16-2006, 11:02 AM
But, but...shouldn't nodal forecasts be left up to experts?


come again?:confused:

who's forecasting?...this is how it is right now...
you can use nodes...
or
you can use fprime...with lightwave 9...or 8 or 7....one windows pc or apple mac

try n use fprime in maya....
try n use fprime in 3dsmax...
try n use fprime in xsi....
try n use fprime in modo....
try n use fprime in cinema4d....

colkai
07-16-2006, 11:26 AM
come again?:confused:

who's forecasting?...this is how it is right now..

I think he was making a joke about ...

you can CHOOSE weather to use nodes

Weather .. Forecasting :p ;)

Cesar Montero
07-16-2006, 12:40 PM
Hmm... for the VFX-guys, yes, FPrime did add alot of speed to their workflow, but in the end, they usually render everything on a renderfarm, thus meaning they use LW native renderer. Wether or not FPrime would have been released at all, I don't really see why companies such as DD, R&H, Zoic and Rainmaker would ditch LW. If these companies would use FPrime to texture and light, they surley can use LW9 and the new cameras to render alot faster than before. Yes, they can't use Nodal... but since I've seen some great work coming from these companies using LW8.x, they can probably survive the FPrime/Nodal issue until it can get resolved and use other features of LW9 to get the job done faster.

Relax people... :)


Yes you can survive, but you sleep less.:thumbsdow
It is a previewer, and to make things shine you use F9.
However, when you are a texture/light artist a previewer comes handy.

It is not about the render time by itself, it is the testing time that kills!
Some of my textures get to 40 layers.
With a previewer I can spend 1 minute each.
Without it I have to F9 each layetime I add one.
And instead of having 10 kick-*** surfaces a day, I make one!

I have to accept that FPrime 2.1 compared to version 2.0 saved me a lot of time, since it crashes no more when I start moving fast in the surface panel.

About the marketing side and FPrime

I'm not an expert, and I'm pretty new to LW compared to a lot of persons here. Not so long ago, I went to a conference of two companies at Vancouver. One was The Embassy (http://www.theembassyvfx.com/). The Embassy made all their things in LW before. You may remember them because they made the dancing robot for Citroen.

Well, I asked Marc Roth from The Embassy about the future of LW. After hearing he made most of the shown work in LW, I was pretty sure that his answers will be positive. However, It was not that way, and I and others where surprised.

I will not get into application wars. So I'll skip his initial comments. At the end, he said they where right now hanging with LW mainly because of Worley FPrime. So yes, FPrime has and can be used for award winning pieces, and can be a key factor for some companies to use LW.

Should it be something to worry about by LW? Of course! When you get a comment like that from a company as The Embassy at the middle of hundreds of people from the industry, it matters. It is then not only an internet forum, it is a real forum with industry people. It is not more another plugin, it is a plugin that can make a company continue using LW.

Panikos
07-16-2006, 02:46 PM
I cannot use other people words
I wish I could

I also wish there was a mandatory unbiased questionaire about LW9 and Newtek course to measure what is majority and what is minority.

theo
07-16-2006, 04:01 PM
I think he was making a joke about ...


Weather .. Forecasting :p ;)

You got it ma' man. Hey, I can be lame- I am invisible so I may as well make the best of it...:D

3dworks
07-17-2006, 03:05 AM
just out of curiosity, from the japanese worley fprime page, translated with google:


LightWave9 is out now!
? such as compatibility of ? this corporation product

Everyone of NewTek& D storm, LightWave9 release
You question truly with the [me], it is! It seems the tired way.

At last, in addition is there some kind of influence in the tool of this corporation concerning LW9?,
It can discuss everyone in the public [ke].

Regrettable, the improvement of SDK be able to do with LW9, unlike the plan of beginning,
Because of the medium [tsu], there were no most many influences in LW plug in which exists.
Because of that, as for all Worley tools it can use without LW9 and problem.

You inquire from everyone, it is many, it is one of the sale of LW9,
Concerning Node Editor texturing system,
Is necessary for FPrime SDK which because of not yet released,
Inside FPrime regrettable, it is ignored.

Without being disgusted even at this corporation, it is negotiation continuation schedule.
Existing problem collectively, the release of SDK waits very.
As for Steve Worley whether now or now, when this job is possible it waits.

For a while, without renewing either the sight (it is usual thing, but… it is not completed),
It had made the scene, but, Steve Worley directing to the new product, piece by piece
We continue development. The favorable completion, with the ^^ which is the valve of this person
You work pleasantly with the shade of everyone. You appreciate.
Also in the future we ask may.

As for Japan you think that very hot seasonal arrival, is. Please enter the summer when it is good arranging physical condition.
The ? which is mail welcome such as opinion and demand and in addition story of work

maybe someone speaking japanese natively might interpret it in a better (and after all, correct) way, but i can see a slight different (and of course even 'poetic'!) colour to what i can read on the english statement... :stumped:

as in the past, the japanese pages of worley's site contain always some little additional flavours...

Pavlov
07-17-2006, 03:20 AM
It would be unbelievable if NT were still not aware of how important FP and its advancement is to LW.

Agree; this resume the whole thing.

Paolo

Bog
07-17-2006, 03:29 AM
If this is a big wind-up leading to a Siggraph release of FPrime, I shall personally dunk Steve Worley into a giant jub of custard.

Pavlov
07-17-2006, 04:16 AM
Would be nice.
My biggest fear is worley has listened to thousand Max's and Cinema's users asking for Fprime, and he'll release Fprime for other platform. This would be... a notorious and beautiful song from The Doors ;)

Paolo

digital verve
07-17-2006, 04:24 AM
Would be nice.
My biggest fear is worley has listened to thousand Max's and Cinema's users asking for Fprime, and he'll release Fprime for other platform.
Paolo

That would be a good thing. If you ever had to use Max or Cinema at a job, good-old-faithful FPrime will be there for you. :devil:

Plus good for Worleys bank account. :p

mouse_art
07-17-2006, 04:30 AM
In this case it would not be worth to use max for fprime...;) ;) ;)

If someone takes this in the wrong throat...it was a joke. ;)