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3D Kiwi
07-03-2006, 06:03 AM
As the title states i expect to get a bit of a bashing for this, but I have an opinion so i will voice it.

From what i have seen of LW9, in the forums and vids etc It seams that Newtek is making progress, only problem is I dont think it is enough.

They are still Light years behind other apps.

LW has its good points but they just dont seam to be enought to keep or increase there user base, I mean how many companies are jumping ship to XSI from LW.... TO MANY...

Here is my plan.

Scrap Lightwave, Yep you heard me, release Nine then forget about it, throw it in the bin.

Then Newtek, lock all your workers in your office, whip them hard ( or soft depending on what they like) and get it right. Have a close look at what the others are doing, take some ideas and then improve them the newtek way.
I say the Newtek way as they do have so many things right, UI, Modeling, free render nodes, they are just some of the selling points for me.
I am sure we all know where they lack badly, Charactor animaiton, dynamics etc.
Then release it with a new name and get out there and market it, XSI is doing it and doing well and i think Newtek could do it to.
I mean lightwave is a nobody in Sydney where it is a max or maya area, but XSI is getting in there fast.

I for one would have no worries waiting a year or two for newtek to release a Product that kicks some real butt. And then let it loose on the world.

Anyway had my say, now let it fly!!!!!!!

jameswillmott
07-03-2006, 06:25 AM
I can only assume you've posted this as a joke? Or do you seriously think that your 'plan' has a shred of merit?

Skinner3D
07-03-2006, 06:30 AM
:twak: Save your pennies and go buy Maya. I did, but only because I was required to by my superiors. If you are student or teacher go to academicsuperstore.com. Otherwise pay the full price from Autodesk. Lightwave is excellent at what it does. It doesn't need to please the whole world.:I_Love_Ne :lightwave

pooby
07-03-2006, 06:35 AM
It's not going to happen.. What would everyone do in the meantime?
I'd imagine that they'd move over to a solid current app, than wait for years for one that's unproven and new..
LW has still got a long way to go.
I think the main issue with LW (layout) is that there are too many loose parts that wont connect up.
I do think that a new LW will happen, but I imagine it's going to be an overlap.

Say for example there is a plan to make all motion modifier parameters animatable and connectable- This system 'might' not work the way the LW core is programmed right now, but you could build the system which all works within itself - have it ride on top of LW's core then gradually transplant the old code with the new over time as development continues.

There must be a way of doing this.. I do think that the fundimentals of LW must have more sense of coherent design which will mean radical changes.
It can get a bit messy trying to link parameters to others at the mo, as there are all manner of one way streets and cul-de-sacs in there.
For me, it's not about so much about making new features (which we do need) as getting all the features in there to work together.

3D Kiwi
07-03-2006, 06:38 AM
I can only assume you've posted this as a joke? Or do you seriously think that your 'plan' has a shred of merit?

Rebranding and rebuilding products happens all the time, Isnt Apples Shake doing somthing similer.

3D Kiwi
07-03-2006, 06:40 AM
:twak: Save your pennies and go buy Maya. I did, but only because I was required to by my superiors. If you are student or teacher go to academicsuperstore.com. Otherwise pay the full price from Autodesk. Lightwave is excellent at what it does. It doesn't need to please the whole world.:I_Love_Ne :lightwave

Not Maya, thats not a nice thought, tried it and hated it, XSI is way better and that is the problem, IF newtek did try and please the whole world we would all be better off i am sure, every company wants to be the market leader dont they?

tyrot
07-03-2006, 06:50 AM
dear skinner3d

i dont think he needs bashing therefore whipping mmmmm but "ignoring" him would be better idea.

Some XSI freakos will infest this thread soon. Let them compare XSI's way with LW while we are earning our cash.

BEST

3D Kiwi
07-03-2006, 06:59 AM
dear skinner3d

i dont think he needs bashing therefore whipping mmmmm but "ignoring" him would be better idea.

Some XSI freakos will infest this thread soon. Let them compare XSI's way with LW while we are earning our cash.

BEST

Sorry if it sounds like I am pumping XSI. Im not, or dont mean to, its just that they seam to be on the right track, I want to stay with lightwave, it got me in this industry and i love it, but you have to move with the times.

hrgiger
07-03-2006, 08:56 AM
Well, I agree with you completely 110% 3DKiwi. On you getting a bashing I mean.

Forget the fact that your logic of going "dark" for god knows how long until they write a new app makes no sense. You can't just look at what everyone else is doing and then write a new app based on that. Because after a few years or however long of writing a new app, you now have software that's based off of technology from a few years ago when you came up with this brilliant idea. Then we're back to where we started from and behind every other application.

Newtek has spent the last few years now, rewriting the application to be more modular so that it will be easier to add new features onto a solid foundation. Lightwave 9 will be ultimately the first version to reflect the restructuring. I think the LW 9.x cycle will determine whether that modular approach is going to pay off.

With the exception of the character animation tools and some OpenGL and bone deform speed issues, Lightwave to me is tip top. And these exceptions are all slated for improvement during the 9.x cycle.

Captain Obvious
07-03-2006, 09:55 AM
Writing a full-featured 3D app from scratch takes maybe five years or so. Luxology started working on modo in 2002 or so, and they've been at it ever since. It still doesn't have animation, or even real plugin support... If NewTek spent as much energy and time on Lightwave as Luxology did on modo, chances are it would do a lot more good than rewriting from scratch.

Nemoid
07-03-2006, 10:00 AM
The latest advancements Nt team did are surely on the right track.
there's more under the hood than what is on the surface too, so results will appear.
basically the current work is : changing how things are under the hood to then code new tools/make old tools behave better.

the problem is duration of developing to modernize the app.

But no, it would be impossible to disappear from the market or stop current Lw developing to recode it and reappear with a brand new product.
Its better making Lw shredding his skin in time.:thumbsup:

The important thing is try and see how 9.0 is, and how development goes. it should become more rapid as time passes, but maybe couldn't be the case because of inherent Lw old structure .

IMO development should go towards integration and good CA, especially now that tools like CAD tools enhanced Lw modeler alot for archiviz. :agree:

Phil
07-03-2006, 10:27 AM
NewTek went dark when rewriting LightWave for version 6.0. It really, really hurt them. Same goes for Softimage/Microsoft who went dark for the XSI release; for a good period of time after XSI started shipping, they had to bundle Softimage as well - essentially maintaining two products, rather than one.

The LW 9 cycle is planned as a rewrite, but will occur over time and with a large number of frequent point releases. Doing this in a dark mode is certainly not warranted and there is little sense to trashing a working set of code - look what that approach did for Netscape!

I am not convinced by the logic that NT needs to maintain its own rendering system, though. I'd like to see flexible bridges to mental ray and/or PRMan in future....if only to ease the integration into existing pipelines. I'd also like to see proper SDK documentation, complete with comprehensive examples of implementation (and a search system!). That goes for LScript as well. Oh, and a large order of fries!

hrgiger
07-03-2006, 10:57 AM
The LW 9 cycle is planned as a rewrite, but will occur over time and with a large number of frequent point releases. Doing this in a dark mode is certainly not warranted and there is little sense to trashing a working set of code - look what that approach did for Netscape!

Well actually, the rewrite took place during the 8.x cycle.


I am not convinced by the logic that NT needs to maintain its own rendering system, though. I'd like to see flexible bridges to mental ray and/or PRMan in future....if only to ease the integration into existing pipelines.

Did someone say that Newtek plans to maintain its own rendering system? The LW roadmmap from Jay Roth seems to indicate otherwise:

"Additionally, the team completed extraction of the renderer from Layout and shipped it for the first time as a dll/shlib (the team has been somewhat surprised that the appearance of the rendering module as a standalone entity in the Programs folder went completely unremarked by users). This change in the relationship of the renderer to the rest of the application has a number of implications for the future both for NewTek development and for third party opportunities. It will be possible to ship multiple versions of the renderer optimized per platform (processor included), to implement multiple optional renderers that the user can select from, and to allow for third party rendering options. The renderer is now also much easier to work on in order to implement improvements, as the code was previously not contiguous and well-isolated within the Layout core."

Celshader
07-03-2006, 10:59 AM
...I mean how many companies are jumping ship to XSI from LW.... TO MANY...

I am always glad to hear that someone, somewhere in the world is using XSI, since almost no one in Los Angeles uses XSI anymore. These days, if a LightWave house around here dumps LightWave, XSI is never considered. I've heard of LightWave studios in Los Angeles switching to Maya or even bringing in 3DS MAX people, but never XSI.

I am glad to know that XSI still thrives elsewhere in this world, because it helps keeps 3D competition alive and healthy. :boogiedow

Phil
07-03-2006, 11:18 AM
Well actually, the rewrite took place during the 8.x cycle.


All the legacy plugins come from the 5.5-6.0 transition. The envelope system, weightmaps, radiosity/caustics, surfacing system, volumetrics, etc. all come from the 6.0 rewrite. 8.x was generally a reorganisation of the codebase from what I can tell, e.g. breaking the renderer out of the Layout app to a separate library.



Did someone say that Newtek plans to maintain its own rendering system? The LW roadmmap from Jay Roth seems to indicate otherwise:

"Additionally, the team completed extraction of the renderer from Layout and shipped it for the first time as a dll/shlib (the team has been somewhat surprised that the appearance of the rendering module as a standalone entity in the Programs folder went completely unremarked by users).


As noted, this is past tense and was accomplished during the 8.x series. I remember being surprised that the LW release guys felt users would go poking around the programs folder to notice this change :)



This change in the relationship of the renderer to the rest of the application has a number of implications for the future both for NewTek development and for third party opportunities. It will be possible to ship multiple versions of the renderer optimized per platform (processor included), to implement multiple optional renderers that the user can select from, and to allow for third party rendering options. The renderer is now also much easier to work on in order to implement improvements, as the code was previously not contiguous and well-isolated within the Layout core."

Yes. The idea of breaking the renderer out like this was to ease access for 3rd party renderers. It's only half-realised, mind you, with Kray et al having outstanding issues with the LW hook-up. It reminds me of the old Maya situation where mental ray could not render everything that Maya's renderer could.

You'll note also that Jay states that the separation made maintenance of the renderer easier ;) There is a more explicit declaration somewhere about the renderer being considered a selling point of LW, but I must admit to being unable to locate it at the moment *sigh*

Earl
07-03-2006, 11:29 AM
There is a more explicit declaration somewhere about the renderer being considered a selling point of LW, but I must admit to being unable to locate it at the moment *sigh*
I believe this is what you're looking for:

Have changes been made to the SDK to enable the use of third party renderers?
LightWave is known for its renderer (indeed, v9 is currently rendering 2-3 times faster than v8.5), and NewTek will not abdicate the task of rendering to outside interests, as almost all of the other 3D applications in our market have done. That makes no sense to us, given our business model, and our demonstrated ability to deliver a world-class rendering solution. With that commitment and capability duly noted, we are in fact making changes to the way our native renderer integrates with the rest of the application that would also be of benefit to third parties. In addition, we are working closely with Worley Labs for their input on SDK features for improving integration with FPrime and their other products which include rendering services, as well as receiving input from other developers interested in providing rendering compatibility with LightWave. All of these efforts sum up to an extensive set of changes to the code and the SDK that will make it easier for developers to implement rendering products as time goes forward.

Phil
07-03-2006, 12:00 PM
That's the baby! Thanks, Earl. I knew I wasn't imagining it :D

mattclary
07-03-2006, 01:37 PM
All the legacy plugins come from the 5.5-6.0 transition. The envelope system, weightmaps, radiosity/caustics, surfacing system, volumetrics, etc. all come from the 6.0 rewrite. 8.x was generally a reorganisation of the codebase from what I can tell, e.g. breaking the renderer out of the Layout app to a separate library.

I think he was refering to this:
Originally Posted by Phil
The LW 9 cycle is planned as a rewrite,

They refer to the "current" re-write that is incremental and does such things as break the renderer into a seperate file, not the 5.x-6.x rewrite.


3D-Kiwi, the notion that somehow new code would be "cleaner" than old code is wrong. There is no such thing as a pristine perfect piece of code. Pretty much any advanced piece of coding is going to be a hack job worked on by many different people with different (and sometimes substandard) ways of thinking. LW is a good base to work with, NewTek is taking the right approach to addressing it's issues.

Adrian Lopez
07-03-2006, 01:50 PM
Did someone say that Newtek plans to maintain its own rendering system? The LW roadmmap from Jay Roth seems to indicate otherwise:

"Additionally, the team completed extraction of the renderer from Layout and shipped it for the first time as a dll/shlib (the team has been somewhat surprised that the appearance of the rendering module as a standalone entity in the Programs folder went completely unremarked by users). This change in the relationship of the renderer to the rest of the application has a number of implications for the future both for NewTek development and for third party opportunities. It will be possible to ship multiple versions of the renderer optimized per platform (processor included), to implement multiple optional renderers that the user can select from, and to allow for third party rendering options. The renderer is now also much easier to work on in order to implement improvements, as the code was previously not contiguous and well-isolated within the Layout core."How does this indicate that Newtek doesn't plan to maintain its own rendering system? Seems to me they are offering alternatives but not abandoning the native rendering system (which they're actually improving). Perhaps you meant something else?

joao
07-03-2006, 03:04 PM
about scrapping lightwave and building a new app.....
my first computer was an amiga - wouldn't like to see lightwave go the same way. i see it as an app that has the same kind of resilience the amiga had. Remember how long it took to finally die? And still.... its trying a come-back.

But one thing really suprises me. Photoshop is the de-facto standard in image manipulation, dreamweaver in web, word in text, final cut or premiere in video..... i find it really strange that there is no de-facto standard app in 3D. Its a very divided field. If there were a standard 3d object / scene format so we could use whichever app works best - that would be a great advantage in the 3d world.
But there isn't. There are a myriad of 3d file formats, a myriad of 3d applications..... i find it harmful to the community as a whole. The only way i see for companies like newtek, cinema4d, modo.... to survive is if they agree on a standard file format for 3d (a bit like jpg for 2d). If they don't, then i can only see autodesk with 3dmax and maya taking over the whole market. The rest of us engulfed whether we like it or not......

just my 2 cents

lilrayray77
07-03-2006, 03:08 PM
My impression of the FAQ was that the seperated the renderer inorder to a) make it easier to improve upon and b) to allow thirdparty renderers to integrate better. It seems that they are doing quite the opposite of loosing the native renderer. I am sick of hearing XSI and maya people talking about how great mental ray is. Hopefully, the 9.X cycle will bring about a robust fast, accurate renderer as well as other great tools. Just a question though:
Isn't the lightwave renderer already extremely accurate in comparisson to the other renderers (It's 192 bit or whatever right?)?

oDDity
07-03-2006, 04:21 PM
Hopefully the new LW9 coding has been done in such a way to make writing pluns a lot friendlier and open, and therefore some 3rd party deveopler can wirte a quality add-on to improver things that are srill lacking like character setup and animation.

jameswillmott
07-03-2006, 04:24 PM
Well actually, the rewrite took place during the 8.x cycle.



Did someone say that Newtek plans to maintain its own rendering system? The LW roadmmap from Jay Roth seems to indicate otherwise:

"Additionally, the team completed extraction of the renderer from Layout and shipped it for the first time as a dll/shlib (the team has been somewhat surprised that the appearance of the rendering module as a standalone entity in the Programs folder went completely unremarked by users). This change in the relationship of the renderer to the rest of the application has a number of implications for the future both for NewTek development and for third party opportunities. It will be possible to ship multiple versions of the renderer optimized per platform (processor included), to implement multiple optional renderers that the user can select from, and to allow for third party rendering options. The renderer is now also much easier to work on in order to implement improvements, as the code was previously not contiguous and well-isolated within the Layout core."


I think you're misinterpreting Jay's comments. Extracting the render core means it can be worked on in complete isolation to the rest of the program, making updates and improvements easier, as well as including platform optimised versions. Opening the renderer up to be replaced by a third-party is a side effect of this, but NT aren't going to ignore their rendering system in favour of thrid party renderers. They've invested too much time in updating it for 9.

Heck, give us the option of swapping render modules, but I hope NT keeps maintaining LW's rendering system.

hrgiger
07-03-2006, 04:44 PM
How does this indicate that Newtek doesn't plan to maintain its own rendering system? Seems to me they are offering alternatives but not abandoning the native rendering system (which they're actually improving). Perhaps you meant something else?

Yes, I misread the comment. I thought the comment earlier in the thread was saying that Newtek would maintain their rendering system meaning only allowing their renderer to work with Lightwave. My mistake.

Nemoid
07-04-2006, 08:37 AM
I am always glad to hear that someone, somewhere in the world is using XSI, since almost no one in Los Angeles uses XSI anymore. These days, if a LightWave house around here dumps LightWave, XSI is never considered. I've heard of LightWave studios in Los Angeles switching to Maya or even bringing in 3DS MAX people, but never XSI.

I am glad to know that XSI still thrives elsewhere in this world, because it helps keeps 3D competition alive and healthy. :boogiedow

hey Celshader : since you posted about this i'm just wondering:

what's the problem with XSI don't being adopted in studios?
i don't know the reasons why Maya should be so better than XSI in the same fields to make a huge difference ? is this because of MEL or what ?


Sorry for the OT, BTW but surely this is something i don't know, i'm wondering about this since a bit of time and i'm courious about.

Nemoid
07-04-2006, 09:37 AM
I wouldn't say so.
Celshader is a good pro , i think and was involved in great productions, so i'd wait at least for her opinon, sorry :P

Dodgy
07-04-2006, 10:22 AM
I would imagine it was a matter of timing that a lot of studios moved to maya. When it came out XSI was still looking distant, LW was at ver 5.6, and no one really wants to use max now do they :) I know we moved to maya for it's perceived flexibilty and now we keep it up rather than investing in a whole new bunch of licenses. If we get in new soft, it's zbrush and bodypaint, things to complement maya, rather than switch to xsi. Xsi may be good, but is it much better than maya to push a switch with all the hassle that involves? Maya is the dominant platform in hollywood, so presumably new licenses are bought to remain compatible both in terms of resources and trained artists.

DogBoy
07-04-2006, 11:10 AM
I think that Celshader has a personal vendetta against XSI, because she has made that same post about 300 times... yes we know studios in LA don't like XSI! I don't know why because the program is far superior to lightwave in every aspect… except the render nodes...

Bryan, you know why, as Jen has explained this on at least half of those 300 posts. Usually cos you ask her to explain.

Because. SoftImage. Took. Too. Long. To. Develop. XSI.

So SI houses moved to other apps, like Maya. They never moved back. Why? because they put a lot of investment into shifting the work pipeline away from SI, and don't see the benefits to moving back. NOT because isn't a great product, but due to the time and money for them to recreate their pipeline and reskill their workforce.

Why does Jen keep saying this? Because you keep saying Newtek should take longer to develop an Uber-LightWave. So she points out how much it hurt SoftImage in the LA region.

The moral of this story? You only take a long time to develop a new product if you are certain your market can wait. If you suspect you will lose too much of your user-base, then try to stretch switching code-base to an interim product.

Captain Obvious
07-04-2006, 01:17 PM
I would be very interested to hear her opinion on why LW is better too.
Pardon my asking, but why are you even here if you think XSI is so much better? If I were you, I'd jump ship instead. :stumped:

Celshader
07-04-2006, 01:33 PM
what's the problem with XSI don't being adopted in [Los Angeles] studios?
i don't know the reasons why Maya should be so better than XSI in the same fields to make a huge difference ? is this because of MEL or what ?

Here's what I know...

-+-

Microsoft bought Softimage in 1994. Softimage then went for four years without an update. Instead of waiting for Softimage to revive, Los Angeles studios using Softimage replaced it with Maya. Softimage lost its market in Los Angeles, and studios got accustomed to running on Maya.

-+-

Since then, the largest Maya studios in Los Angeles have honed their Maya-based pipelines over many years and many projects. They're not about to throw out their proven Maya backbones and start over from scratch with another software package, whether or not that other package is "better."

Also, there's now a vast talent pool of Maya artists and programmers available in Los Angeles. If a studio uses Maya, they have a large, local talent pool from which to hire. If a studio switched over to XSI, they won't have as large of a local talent pool.

-+-

XSI does exist in some Los Angeles studios, but it seems rare.

The only pure-XSI house I know in Los Angeles is Pixel Liberation Front (http://www.thefront.com/html/employment.php).

Last I heard, Omation used a mix of LightWave, Maya and XSI for Barnyard (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barnyard_%28film%29). Looking at their hiring page (http://www.oentertainment.com/StudiOInfo/Jobs/omat.htm), I see "[s]trong familiarity in XSI" is not a requirement, but it is a "plus."

I could've sworn someone told me that Computer Cafe might use a seat of XSI for modeling, but that studio is mostly Maya. Computer Cafe still puts out hiring notices for LightWave artists once in a while, though.

When it was active, Stan Winston Digital mostly used a mix of Maya and XSI, but SWD is currently in a state of hibernation.

-+-

Right now I'm earning a good living as a LightWave artist here in Los Angeles. However, if I were to learn a second 3D app, Maya's the obvious choice for Los Angeles studio work, though it's still too expensive for my personal/freelance work.

-+-

EDIT - Aw, man! DogBoy beat me to it.

radams
07-04-2006, 02:07 PM
I am always glad to hear that someone, somewhere in the world is using XSI, since almost no one in Los Angeles uses XSI anymore. These days, if a LightWave house around here dumps LightWave, XSI is never considered. I've heard of LightWave studios in Los Angeles switching to Maya or even bringing in 3DS MAX people, but never XSI.

I am glad to know that XSI still thrives elsewhere in this world, because it helps keeps 3D competition alive and healthy. :boogiedow

Yeah this was my take as well...XSI, doesn't have a large base here in the US...which is also strange in that houses who did move from LW would have had an easier transition to XSI than to Maya or 3DsMax.. Thou I do know several XSI is being used more in European smaller studios than Maya...

As to the point to this thread....I won't bash you...but I also do NOT agree with going Dark... the existing market that LW is in is too small to be able to relaunch a new product from scratch IMHO after 2-5 years...NT isn't that big of a company that can hold a main product line inactive for that long...it would kill NT's cash flow and dry up the market...NT's choice to dual develope and overlap was the correct choice considering the existing markets and NT's size...IMHO.

Now thou It will be up to the team to see how effective the change over is over the 9's life cycle.

As I've also stated, I hope that NT will look to broaden its markets at the same time...to deal better with archviz and 3D design in general...which are 1000 times larger than the ones their in now.

Also they need to get positioned into India, and China if they want to position themselves for the future.

Cheers,

Celshader
07-04-2006, 03:15 PM
I would be very interested to hear her opinion on why LW is better too.

Well, with LightWave, I can use the exact same app for studio (http://www.celshader.com/gallery/FB_97.mov), freelance (http://www.celshader.com/gallery/violin/) and personal (http://www.celshader.com/gallery/lore/) work at a reasonable cost. I can't say the same for XSI, which almost never appears in Los Angeles studios, or for Maya, which dominates the Los Angeles market but costs more than what I am willing to pay.

LightWave is "better" than XSI for my situation. I am sure that you chose the software that best fits your personal situation with equal care.

lwaddict
07-04-2006, 03:39 PM
I've got Lightwave, XSI, and have messed with Maya, for as long as I could stand it...

Whenever necessary, to appease the clients that have been pulled in by hype, I've set the XSI and Maya boxes prominently on the shelf where they could view them while we went over their projects...
and then I do it in Lightwave.

They "ooo", they "ahhhh", and they pay, all the while thinkin' their work has been done in another package.

I used to keep a Silion Graphics husk here with some leds run by a couple 9 volt batteries...that was back in the day. Same trick. Same green money would roll in.

My point is that it doesn't matter what you use, it's how you use it.

I prefer Lightwave for it's simplicity. Oh sure, some projects can get complex but not like the other packages would have it.

I don't have a problem animating characters, building them, applying physical behaviors to them or their surroundings...but I don't try and fool myself into believing that I'll ever know it all or dare to dream of the magical "animate" buttons that would one day lose our jobs for us (oh yeah, believe it, if it happens, you'll be working a register at Mervyns) because they'll have their secretaries do this for them.

Remember getting paid to create presentations? anyone? I used to. I laugh about it now but this is what is eventually going to happen.

So use whatever you've got to use, whatever you're best with, and get the job done. The clients only know what THEY see.

Hang in there,

LWAddict

lwaddict
07-04-2006, 04:26 PM
LOL...
getting to know more and more studio people everyday...
gotta tell ya,
the trick I just listed above is used in the industry more than you'd think.

What I'm saying is...
you have no idea how often Lightwave is used and the others get the credit.

It takes a bold company to admit they're using software that just about anyone can afford. That's about the only justification I can come up with for the lack of admitting use of LW.

RedBull
07-04-2006, 04:34 PM
As the title states i expect to get a bit of a bashing for this, but I have an opinion so i will voice it.

From what i have seen of LW9, in the forums and vids etc It seams that Newtek is making progress, only problem is I dont think it is enough.

I agree.


They are still Light years behind other apps.

In many areas this is true.


LW has its good points but they just dont seam to be enought to keep or increase there user base, I mean how many companies are jumping ship to XSI from LW.... TO MANY...

You mean jumping from LW to XSI (not vice versa).


Here is my plan.

Scrap Lightwave, Yep you heard me, release Nine then forget about it, throw it in the bin.

Then Newtek, lock all your workers in your office, whip them hard ( or soft depending on what they like) and get it right. Have a close look at what the others are doing, take some ideas and then improve them the newtek way.
I say the Newtek way as they do have so many things right, UI, Modeling, free render nodes, they are just some of the selling points for me.

I am sure we all know where they lack badly, Charactor animaiton, dynamics etc.

Then maybe you should not compare XSI's dynamics which also suck, or maybe Maya Unlimited version to LW, does anyone compare the price?


Then release it with a new name and get out there and market it, XSI is doing it and doing well and i think Newtek could do it to.

Modo201, cough, cough...

What makes you think this?
Avid is a publically listed billion dollar industry giant, Newtek is a smaller privately owned company, with very small resources.


I mean lightwave is a nobody in Sydney where it is a max or maya area, but XSI is getting in there fast.

This is because LW was never pushed into training or studios in Australia, and Max has been.... Now that Autodesk owns Maya and Max, and Mental Ray is included in Maya,Max and XSI. Studios are leaving Maya in droves in Australia,
and in fact this mass exodus is happening world wide. (to get away from Autodesk) it just so happens the application that's done the most work and is the technically most pleasing and now much cheaper is becoming a useful and complete tool is XSI... Avid have done an outstanding job from growing XSI from version 2.0 to version 5.11..

It's also the first integrated package to offer 64bit computing on Linux and PC,
and it doesn't require a 1000 third party plugins to be made 64bit. Like, Max and LW for example, It's much more suited to major studio productions, than that of the freelancer tool that is LW. Industry standard scripting through Python and VBscript also aid in it's uptake by studios.


I for one would have no worries waiting a year or two for newtek to release a Product that kicks some real butt. And then let it loose on the world.

How do you make a program "kick some real butt"
I'm sure Avid's and Autodesk methodology is to make average software using a lot of money, and NT is to make kickbutt software on no budget.

The reason for a "Parrallel Changeover" is because NT can't afford to go a year or two without upgrade purchasers paying for development cycles.
You can't just leave customers hanging, they will move to competiting products. (as seen) Why wait for NT to get their act together, others like Avid already have their act together now.

Modo201 is LW from a ground up rebuild, and it shows that "Parrallel changeover" is done for a reason. Modo has many years before it can cover
all the basis that LW already does. In return LW would take many years to improve the core architecture to be able to do what Modo does now.


Anyway had my say, now let it fly!!!!!!!

What you say isn't wrong, but some of how you think it could be seen as slightly naieve.

In the last 10 years, Alias and Avid have viewed the 3D industry as one worth fighting for, NT did not see the same vision, we are now paying for that.
Avid and Autodesk are going to own this industry, there is no doubt.

Movies, Archviz, Games these are all billion dollar industries.

With every 2nd movie being a 3D movie these days, the marketplace and time and place we are living is not the same in 2006... We are not on an Amiga anymore.

Mental Ray has become the new PRMAN for film and television, and having a singular centric common renderer leaves C4D, Modo and LW all out in the cold.
These will be used when MR and PRMan are not.

LW needs to do better what it's always done well....
It should not copy or clone itself after XSI or Maya, as both those products
already exist and already do whay they do well..

LW needs to fit in between the other applications, generally not instead of them. NT would never win a features race with Autodesk or Avid, it doesn't have the resources. The others are spending millions in advertising, just to make sure it's those 2 names that written in every blurb of the Gorrillaz filmclips, of Kong film.

I think in the last 2 years Blender has moved at an amazing pace, and LW can't match it's development schedule pace, what makes you think NT can match Autodesk or Avid. Me i doubt it's realistic to do so.

The problem with Parraellel changeover is everything is done thrice...
And often not done with any forward thinking in mind.

Lightwave does need quicker development to keep pace.
LW9 is now 7months behind it's own expected release date.

In a time where Blender, and XSI are pumping out the features,
LW band-aids, and the lack of real architecture improvements are of a concern to myself.

In a time where Max and Maya have been given their technical knockout,
NT had a chance to do make some massive inroads in time of Autodesk panic.
They have failed to do so effectively.

For myself Personally LW needs to be pulled apart and improved and not added too..... Nodal, APS and Pixie Dust are amgongst some of the best features of LW9, however none of them are helping LW find the core of it's problems or fixing them. They are simply addons designed to sell new users some cool features so they say WOW. And for the most part it works.

As for the XSI and Maya pipelines, nobody is getting rid of Maya pipelines
just making XSI their formost tool on the pipelines.

Animal Logic, Rising Sun, Fuel and dozens more of the Aussie shops, have dropped Maya more and more and are now using XSI for far more things.
I imagine this will happen in Hollywood and CA in the same way.

Celshader
07-04-2006, 04:55 PM
3d is just a hobby for now, but not for long. ... [XSI] might not have those "LA studios" now, but I believe the superior program will win out over the one that can't afford to do what needs to be done.

Fair enough. I made my decision based on what I see around me right now, and on what I have seen happen in the past. You have made your decision based on what you "believe" will happen in the future.

No harm done. If your prediction for Los Angeles falls through, you'll still have a legit LightWave 9.x license and the Maya PLE (http://usa.autodesk.com/adsk/servlet/index?siteID=123112&id=6902573) as backup.

Celshader
07-04-2006, 05:33 PM
I am on the same page as redbull... I think that what he posted is a pretty accurate state of affairs.

Well, I don't. I can't picture ImageWorks, Dreamworks, Disney, Rhythm & Hues, Weta Digital, ILM and Digital Domain swapping Maya for XSI anytime soon, though I understand if things are different for the "Aussie shops" that he lists.

I also don't see how a new Camera SDK and integrated Nodes (there is no "node.p" or "node.dll" in the LightWave directory) fail to count as "real" architecture improvements for LightWave. Again, though, maybe you and Redbull know something that I don't.

Celshader
07-04-2006, 06:28 PM
sounds a bit near sited...

The nodes are nice, but are you trying to say that when you use lightwave it doesn't feel like a patched together mess...It does to me!!!

Even the nodes feel patched on to me... Why no OGL or proper render buffer???

Things that should never have been left go are going to be sold as a final product, and it will show!!!

Parallel changeover. Sure, I still see the older bits and pieces of LightWave, but I also admire the new bits and pieces, too. Soon the older bits will be gone, and all that will be left is the good. That is what NewTek stated up front a while ago:


From http://www.newtek.com/lightwave/lwfuturedev.php

Among those decisions was to move to a development model wherein the team would be able to rebuild the application, but in a manner that allowed them to continue bringing users new features and maintenance enhancements as they progressed. NewTek's video team had already implemented this model, based on previous art and precedent in the software development industry, and known as "parallel changeover." In addition to the benefits to the clients of providing regular enhancement of the product, the approach also avoids the other well-documented difficulties that have been encountered by those in the industry who have redeveloped a product in an all-at-once fashion, while leaving the previous version of the product static for up to several years.


Besides, I can still get what I want out of LightWave, even if the parallel changeover isn't finished yet.

faulknermano
07-04-2006, 10:30 PM
I started out 3D such a LW addict, and now I see things falling apart with no hope in site as far as I can see.

love LW. learned Maya because of work. slowly and relunctantly appreciated what Maya could do, and what it couldnt. now i like LW and Maya as individual apps more than ever because i see the two apps in better context of CG creation and working in tandem with each other.

i end up appreciating improvements instead of wishing for the moon. however, if an app does *worse* than its previous version (like LW5.6 was to LW6.0 or Maya5 was to Maya6), then that's cause for major complaint. :)

i'm pretty impressed, surprised to say it myself, of the new stuff in LW9. i suppose because a lot of the stuff is geared towards the rendering aspect of LW, which i really wanted (since that's LW's main role in my pipe), because i always believed that LW's renderer is outstanding, but needed a little developer love.

SplineGod
07-04-2006, 11:07 PM
Ive got to agree. Im pretty impressed with LW9 for a variety of reasons.
Dodgy, Jen and others also made a good point that studios have a lot of investment in terms of pipeline development. Theres also that huge political side of the industry thats very prevelant in the bigger studios: the higher you go up the chain of command in the studios the less technical people become. They rely on those who are 'in the know' about how exactly things are done. Theres a lot of interest in job security in a business that has more and more become nosecure. People will recommend what they know and those who dont know will recommend what appears to be popular. People rarely get sacked for doing what everyone else does.
The other thing is that most CGI work isnt done in major studios. It tends to be the most acclaimed however. Most CGI work is what you see day to day on TV, print, web etc. The vast majority of studios are those that have 10 employees or less where work has to get done quickly. This is where LWs strength lies. Its a workhorse. Most of what people have to do with doest require very complex setups etc. Its got a great renderer, dynamics, FX etc etc that doesnt take a team of specialized people to figure out. A single person of a small team can get things done quickly with it in a time when people want great looking CGI done quickly. For that reason LW will always be around. I have used and own other 3D appls. I have C4D for example. Its very powerful but the thing I hate about it is that everything is procedural. This makes it poweful but gets in my face when I need speed and spontanaety. Every app has its strengths and weaknesses. I use LW because, as Jen put it, also fits best in MY workflow.
I use LW for just about everything under the sun including character work. Is LW the best for that? No. I would probably say Motion Builder is but LW doesnt have a 4k pricetag either. And MB sucks for modeling and rendering. :) LW doesnt have to be the best at every particular task. As I said, its very very good at what it does - being that workhorse. :)

Chris S. (Fez)
07-05-2006, 01:03 AM
I like where Newtek is taking the 9.x cycle. Some smartskin and an extreme boost in bone-deformation speed would be welcome.

Nemoid
07-05-2006, 03:28 AM
This discussion is turning out very cool.
thanx to Celshader and the other guys for the replies on this subject.
I can say one thing. i believe in small studios , with 4 - 5, up to 10 people max. great generalists - and Lw allows this, with some obvious strenghts in different fields, ( animation, rendering etc )
i see also how for movie productions, many small studios are used - so they can use basically what they want - because this is a more flexible pipeline to get the production done.

of course, i'm not so blind to think Lw is the perfect app, it can improve greatly and i know that apps like Maya and XSI are actually powerful. but especially Maya, i do think requires too much things like TDs, Mel scripters and very specialised technics that do fit in very large pipelines to solve huge problems or totally streamline a process.

However i do also believe that the best software has also to be in general easy to use and intuitive out of the box. and this requires a good understanding of what a streamlined workflow is and what intuitiveness and logic is into a UI.

the less clicks/steps you have to do to accomplish a task, the more artistic the process is, and the less workarounds you are forced to use, the better the software is.

basically, for obtaining the 90% of your work, software shouldn't require you to script , code, whatever.
its the remaining 10% which would put the level of the project to
extreme excellence that could require this.

Now ,about Lw developing i can say that Lw fits alot for modelling, and rendering purposes. less for rigging and heavy/complex animation purposes.

I also do think it should become more modern and flexible in time, getting closer to what "high end" apps offer without loosing teh Lw streamlined philosophy, on the contrary, enhancing it more and more. many are the areas that require workarounds or convoluted process and that could be more streamlined and this is what great Nt team has to address the faster they can !.:thumbsup:

colkai
07-05-2006, 04:48 AM
I use LW for just about everything under the sun including character work. Is LW the best for that? No. I would probably say Motion Builder is but LW doesnt have a 4k pricetag either. And MB sucks for modeling and rendering.
Heck, MB sucks for trying to modify your "wieghting" of points for deformation.
It's great as a simple "animate me" tool, but beyond that, you can't even copy/paste materials from one surface to another.

Like Bryan, I use 3D as a hobby, though I have to say, I find LW does pretty much everything I want, and more. After using other packages, (though granted not XSI as no way in Hades can I afford it), I find it's ease of use and power to suit me personally.

Chris S. (Fez)
07-05-2006, 10:31 AM
I agree Lightwave is a mess and posted pretty often saying such (throughout the 8.x cycle), but I see great gains in Lightwave 9. The openGL is getting faster, the rendering is getting faster and the program generally seems to be more stable. As long as Newtek continues to optimize, stabilize, and consolidate the tools, I will be happy.

My main problem with Lightwave is relatively shoddy implemenations of tools, like the PSD exporter, which never quite come together despite showing much promise.

I make a good living with Lightwave (and Max) and will continue to use Lightwave for the foreseeable future. Lightwave could be better, sure, but 9 is evidence enough for me that it IS getting better.

Wonderpup
07-05-2006, 10:35 AM
So it looks like I am the only one that thinks that newtek took a great program and ran it into the ground??? It is a patched together, unacceptable mess, compared to what it could and should be!

Are you talking about the 'New' newtek or the old one. Most of the things that frustrate me about Lightwave have been around a long time. I can't agree that the software now is worse than before- it's clearly a lot better -so 'running into the ground' is not the impression I am getting. What I see going on is a gathering momentum toward a much improved Lightwave. There are a lot of things I want to see improved, of course, but the general direction seems to be positive, to me at least.

tyrot
07-05-2006, 11:28 AM
So it looks like I am the only one that thinks that newtek took a great program and ran it into the ground??? It is a patched together, unacceptable mess, compared to what it could and should be!


dear ?

you are unique. The last member of your kind. You are different than us (mortals) you see future, you held the past. I cant express my happy feelings to see your kind alive. I thought you all gone , wiped out from Lightwave forums, scattered around and happy with your tools.
What a survival instict you have. Amazing riddles of nature. I hope you can survive after LW9 release. If not..it is ok. You are still unique in my book. The bringer of Truth.!!!

Write a book titled "I am a clairvoyant but nobody listens me (why LW 9 sucks and why i am the only one who knows it) "

you should write pretty quick though before LW9 release. You can skip some pages without writing anything. We wont notice the difference.

BEAST!

Celshader
07-05-2006, 11:39 AM
NT managed to turn a diamond into coal!!!

Outta curiosity...which version number of LightWave was the "diamond" for you?

Celshader
07-05-2006, 11:52 AM
7.5c was an imperfect diamond (for me anyway)... that was the last version I didn't think was a hacked together mess!

Ah. So...you have never experienced the Joy of [6]. Heh.

I know a guy who considers 5.6 to be the pinnacle of LightWave's development, with everything running downhill from there. I figured you were a 5.6 fan, too, but I guess I was wrong. :o

tyrot
07-05-2006, 11:56 AM
dear ?

when you writing 1000 posts here i was working with Maya, Max for many years. Max is a mess. Maya is a different thing. Not for my business. You see when you work as a freelancer you have to use them but when you build your own business for smaller (but MANY) clients you have to find the best tool. Lightwave is unbeatable in its own place. It is fast, well supported, amazing modeler, almost breathtaking overall working style. For a mid-small budget studios LW is the golden key to wealth. If they dont wanna earn money what can i do?

And trust me write a book about LW9 you will be the bestseller. Even with that title. Noone runs to get a general MAYA book but they go and get LW books. Why? In one book you can grasp the program and use it, make it something with it and get money. That s why ourdarkwaving lady will write another book for Lightwave 9.

Probably Lightwave is the only program even you dont use you can make money with just writing a book.

BEaST

colkai
07-05-2006, 12:08 PM
So it looks like I am the only one that thinks that newtek took a great program and ran it into the ground??? It is a patched together, unacceptable mess, compared to what it could and should be!

.. In your opinion, let's not forget that fact, simply stating how you feel does not therfore make it a universal fact, no matter how hard you shout.

Does LW still need improvement, absolutely, but by no means for me and many others, is it an unacceptable mess.

We all know how unhappy your are Byran, the Gods know you posted enough rants. Either seek a refund, or sell it and recoup some cash to spend on products you obviously feel will be superior as and when they are released.

I wonder also, if the other software you have used is so meuch better, why do you insist on haging around here trying to use software you hate, that is a shambles to you and causes you nought but raving and renting your garments? Why not simply go to places your insight will be truly marvelled at?

mattclary
07-05-2006, 12:21 PM
So it looks like I am the only one that thinks that newtek took a great program and ran it into the ground??? It is a patched together, unacceptable mess, compared to what it could and should be!

If we all pitch in and pay you the money you spent on LW 9, will you please shut the f*** up and go away?

LW isn't perfect, but many are pretty happy with it. If you aren't, use another package. You aren't accomplishing anything here.

In the recent past I've been disatisfied enough that I contempleated a move to Modo. I didn't feel a need to denigrate LW to make myself feel better. That's what you do if you continue to be unhappy with something and there is no resolution in sight, you just move to something that satisfies you more.

Do you really need everyone to agree with you to gain self validation?

MooseDog
07-05-2006, 12:22 PM
Why not simply go to places your insight will be truly marvelled at?

LOL :agree:

bryan, correct me if i'm wrong, but i clearly remember suggesting to you that this sort of printed language will not get you taken seriously.

there's a difference between "you lousy piece of $**T" and "c'mon guys, tool integration and workflow and interface design really have to be seriously addressed, here are five examples....."

tyrot
07-05-2006, 12:33 PM
If we all pitch in and pay you the money you spent on LW 9, will you please shut the f*** up and go away?


dear matt

10 bucks from me. Open the paypal account.

we need headliners for draw attention.

save LW 9 . save your mind.
can you read another 1000 post from mr.? in LW 9 cycle.
can he really be away?
the independence of the Newtek Forum needs your penny..
act now! protect your thread.
why me? (not related but sounds cool)
why me? (still sounds so cool)


LW 9 the number of the

BEaST!

habaņero
07-05-2006, 01:06 PM
Interesting thread. I think the top poster is in dense fog.

lwaddict
07-05-2006, 01:14 PM
20 bucks here.

Maybe he can put a down payment on a plugin for Max or Maya with the refunded money he'll get for Lightwave 9, Vue Infinite, and LWCAD...hmm?

In the meantime...3 seats rendering away here on yet two more side jobs that are bringing in more than three times the cost of the total I paid for all three seats. LOL.

Perfect program? No.
Could be better? Sure.
Does the job? Yep.

Again...XSI and Maya are here too. Just don't have time for those workflows with money coming in.

RedBull
07-05-2006, 03:33 PM
Ah. So...you have never experienced the Joy of [6]. Heh.

I know a guy who considers 5.6 to be the pinnacle of LightWave's development, with everything running downhill from there. I figured you were a 5.6 fan, too, but I guess I was wrong. :o

5.6 was the peak of LW's usefulness to myself as well, i still miss many features. The LW6 rebuild i guess was necessary, but it didn't go far enough and here we are again only a few versions later.
7 and 7.5 were not bad releases really, but we have moved way to slow since then. And everybody else started to play for the big money.

Anyone who remembers the 6 to 6.5b mess would be aware of why NT could not do a ground up rebuild like they did with LW6.0.

While i agree that a seperate modeler and animation system, developed by seperate people for the amiga platform, has run it's course of development.
It was always meant to have some kind of life cycle.

Maya was built from the ground up to win the studio vote, and be programmable and flexible, (it's also what made it such a mess)
SoftImage3D was rebuilt to be XSI, for the exact same reason.

3D Studio Max, was being rumoured to also run it's cycle, similar to LW it's a plugin and modular approach, which also gives it the tacked on, bleeding band-aid scenario... It was due for a rebuild for Max10.

With the problems Max will have surviving the 64bit transition, (being plugin based) seems like gutting Maya for the replacement is a cheaper and better option.

To show the architecture is rigid, Can we share shaders yet CelShader?
When Nodal was implemented, were the new tools that were also introduced made Nodal compliant too? So for example LW9 added APS system, and Pixie Dust, HV Deformer. It's biggest feature was Nodal...

So did NT actually make their newest biggest feature, compatible and working with their other new features?

So does Pixie Dust access Nodal? does APS have a Nodal panel?
No it doesn't, because once again they only half implented a band-aid.
If LW architecture was been improved, this wouldn't be an issue.

You can call this "Parrallel Changeover" but to me it's more of the same feature
adding that LW and NT have been doing for years.

I'd rather see One big implentation of real features, than lots of half-band-aids half implentations that LW is so well known for.

And then you look at the requests over the years, was a Nodal system one of the most asked features from it's users anyway? No! Not to mention the
there were already several Node based shaders that offered 70% of the feature-set that Nodal supplies.

Some minor Modeler tool integration kind of half work sometimes..
I think NT should do one thing well, before they attempt to do everything half-assed. As for the camera tools, they are fine and even useful.

But they have nothing to do with large architecutal changes needed to LW.
I mean not even in the ball park.

I still think LW is quite useful despite it's band-aided age, and it's only that i see so much potential still in LW that i'm still using it so often. Despite all these new cool tools, a decently open LW architecture is needed.
Modo was succsesfull in providing an open core, this was it's main objective
and it's done a good job.

But i'm starting to see everybody else play grown-ups while LW is remembering what a grown up actually is.

A Billion dollar company like Autodesk and Avid, that outsource stuff like Cloth to Syflex, Hair to Joe Altar, and Rendering to Mental Images.
Obviously these people have deeper pockets and less work to do to their program, than that of NT.

It's a terribly hard job to please a bunch of 3D users both new and old, professional and ranks, and try to keep everyone happy.
That's why users such as myself, acknowledge that LW won't be everything i need it to be, that's why XSI and Modo are now filling those gaps, it misses.

The Dev Team for LW9 under Jay's supervision, is looking like an improvement on the past, no doubt.
And there are bits in LW9, which make me believe there is a way for these people to still make good of LW.
But we need to get to the good bits quickly over the LW9-10 cycle.
I'm a fan of the little workflow improvments like Load From Scene, than i will be with featues like Nodal personally.

Skinner3D
07-05-2006, 03:45 PM
Again...XSI and Maya are here too. Just don't have time for those workflows with money coming in.

:agree: Although I don't necessarily have money coming in from Lightwave at the moment.

I find the Maya workflow to be hard to get a handle on. Haven't been able to figure out Maya's workflow despite the fact that I have several books.

I like Lightwave for the opposite reason. I started with the demo version and was able to pick up some of the subtler things in Modeler and Layout just through Lightwave's workflow.:D

Celshader
07-05-2006, 03:59 PM
To show the architecture is rigid, Can we share shaders yet CelShader?

"Share shaders..?" Er...sure. I can share my LW5.6 shader (http://celshader.com/classic/v_ink/) with you over the Internet. Flay.com is full of free shaders that you can download from other folks' websites.

Unless you meant something else by "share shaders"...


When Nodal was implemented, were the new tools that were also introduced made Nodal compliant too? So for example LW9 added APS system, and Pixie Dust, HV Deformer. It's biggest feature was Nodal...

So did NT actually make their newest biggest feature, compatible and working with their other new features?

So does Pixie Dust access Nodal? does APS have a Nodal panel?
No it doesn't, because once again they only half implented a band-aid.
If LW architecture was been improved, this wouldn't be an issue.

Anyone who wishes can call up the Node Editor for their plug-in. This is clearly demonstrated in the 9.0 SDK. Anyone who wants can write their own nodes for the Node Editor. This has been clearly demonstrated on the Open Beta forum.

The Node Editor is currently present in three key areas -- surfacing (Surface Editor), displacement (Node Displacement) and lighting (Volumetric lights). This is a great start for 9.0, and I am puzzled why you think NewTek will stop there in later builds of 9.x.

-+-

That said, I'm glad you're happy with XSI and modo. You're a lucky man to be able to afford to maintain two 3D packages every year. With the rent I'm paying, I can only afford to maintain one.

hrgiger
07-05-2006, 04:16 PM
At the rate that NT is working I don't see it coming together before they loose most of there customers.


Oh, Newtek is losing customers? Do you have any good hard numbers on this? Or are you just another dramatic doomsayer?

Yeah, that's what I thought.

jameswillmott
07-05-2006, 04:56 PM
Anyone who wishes can call up the Node Editor for their plug-in. This is clearly demonstrated in the 9.0 SDK. Anyone who wants can write their own nodes for the Node Editor. This has been clearly demonstrated on the Open Beta forum.

The Node Editor is currently present in three key areas -- surfacing (Surface Editor), displacement (Node Displacement) and lighting (Volumetric lights). This is a great start for 9.0, and I am puzzled why you think NewTek will stop there in later builds of 9.x.


My thoughts exactly. I mean, the dev team can spend their time fixing critical errors, or they can spend it putting Nodal Editor interfaces on everything. I know what I'd prefer to happen first.

RedBull
07-05-2006, 07:47 PM
Anyone who wishes can call up the Node Editor for their plug-in. This is clearly demonstrated in the 9.0 SDK. Anyone who wants can write their own nodes for the Node Editor. This has been clearly demonstrated on the Open Beta forum.

The Node Editor is currently present in three key areas -- surfacing (Surface Editor), displacement (Node Displacement) and lighting (Volumetric lights). This is a great start for 9.0, and I am puzzled why you think NewTek will stop there in later builds of 9.x.

I never mentioned anything about NT stopping, only i believe it's better to leave out the new features until you've made a better way of making the implentation more complete, for example leaving Modeler tools out of this build, and doing more integration of Nodal now in this one. Making new tools like APS implement a Nodal and surface base rather than a NEW feature using the OLD tech.

It's just typical of the main problem in LW, which was not the lack of a Nodal surface editor. But the rigidity of how NT are forced to implement it. Nodal is just an example, but in LW's history these plugins just get's left as one of the many plugins to go untreated. Obviously Jay personally wrote to some of my concerns which i didn't get a chance to reply too, but i do believe his words they they're actually making actual inroads and i will be sure to watch the developments. The positive feedback from many of the LW9 beta users is a good thing. To me LW9's little tweaks such as the reorgnization of menus and panels, "Load from Scene" enhancements are just far more impressive than Nodal or similar features.


That said, I'm glad you're happy with XSI and modo. You're a lucky man to be able to afford to maintain two 3D packages every year. With the rent I'm paying, I can only afford to maintain one.

I'm glad others have taken up the slack and made real tools that are available
for me today for a price that is cheaper than what LW cost me initially, that can do the things i've needed LW to do for years.

If you look at LW9 for example, while i love the thinking in LW9's Render Globals (i had thought it for years) Modo has already achieved the ability to make my own interfaces, and customize every part and panel myself. THIS is the problem that LW faces (no pun intended), not the interface customization not this specifically, but the fact that rather than fix one problem with a band-aid (menu reshuffles) Lux put the power into the users hands, at the same time relieved themselves from having to update the menus in future revisions. They are now free to develop other features, rather than tidy up and reshuffle and add boltons. They're addressing the real issues that have prevented LW from being taken to the next level.

Having said that, i now see why we have Modo and LW at the same time anyway. This thread was about rebuilding LW from the core up, Modo shows why this can't occur from NT's position, Modo is far too incomplete to really be compared to LW overall. Parrallel changeover does have some merits, and i'm now more aware of that than ever.

The irony in all this is LW's simplicity, and it's certain unique way of forcing you to work. It's workflow speed is simply unmatched for the majority of everyday situations, and for a freelancer and new users i think LW is still a most excellent choice, especially when you consider it's price now as well.
While all of the others may have more customization and flexibility, it does come at the expense of speed and simplicity.

For the people who have blindly left LW for another package, i say good luck.
To me it's an essential tool in my pipeline and the other 3 3D packages are not at this time. (Blender is getting used more too) But the list of reasons i use XSI or Modo is increasing over LW.

LW has a strength in the time it takes me to Model surface/texture
than XSI for example, LW surface system is just so much quicker to achieve good results through it's layer surface system and renderer than that of mental ray and XSI shadertree. Not to mention HV's and many other areas where LW is still one of the best tools for the job.

So for myself Nodal needed to achieve a Node system that i could use surface based clip maps and displacements maps from the SURFACE EDITOR, not displacements from the displacement editor and the clip maps from a clip map node editor, this is just destructive to a nodal based workflow and really didn't offer a 'massive' leap forward than TB's shadertree, and not as good as the one i already try to avoid in XSI. Thankfully i can still use layers.

LW9 did bring some new hope in the current Newtek and it's development team. Render Speed improvements and a few workflow enhancements
Modeler integration and enhancements to come, means i believe NT can still make LW9+ an amazing product. They need direction. I'm hoping Jay is the man to provide it. But i can't be convinced on just what LW9 has shown that NT are taking it far enough, despite for the first time of some hints they are aware of the problems. So i'll stay tuned for more of the 9.x cycle and beyond. If NT could learn to better harness the power that LW already contains it can still go much further.

LW9 did NT's usual trick of buying up other plugins, value adding a program like Vue and preordering to try and gather enough development funds to do some actual development.

I wish to say LW need to expand to more markets.
Archviz and games being two of them, expanding into other markets will allow them to have a better stream of bread and butter users, to maintain a healthy development pace. FPrime allowed LW a huge advantage in GI and interactivity and gave LW8.x a much better position.

NT need to use this in markets like Archviz, where .DWG and
Collada importer/exporter, as well as stuff like DWG exporter/importer
allows better integration with other areas of usage that can be better exposed to LW and it's abilities. Having the LWCad bonus would of been a perfect time to push these areas. Despite no need for me personally.
I do believe it's important for LW's growth. Better pipeline integration is making the other tools more flexible. Maya/XSI/Modo/Max and C4D have already seen the benefits of better integration to standards like AutoCad,
or Point oven and After Effects integration.

Okay that's about me done for thought of the day, sorry for the rant!!
I type 180wpm on a wireless keyboard that doesn't keep up... :)

Celshader
07-05-2006, 08:15 PM
Modo has already achieved the ability to make my own interfaces, and customize every part and panel myself.

I'd heard that modo allows users to customize its interface...within limits. One modo user remarked to me that one could not place more than two controls side-by-side.

-+-

I'm sure modo is a good modeler and renderer, but $800 is more than what I am willing to pay for what it does at this time.

I have invested $75 in the LWCAD2.0 upgrade instead; that should tide me over until the LightWave Modeler completes its parallel changeover.

-+-


I wish to say LW need to expand to more markets.
Archviz and games being two of them, expanding into other markets will allow them to have a better stream of bread and butter users, to maintain a healthy development pace. FPrime allowed LW a huge advantage in GI and interactivity and gave LW8.x a much better position.

Well, VoluMedic (http://www.volumedic.com/) looks like it's about to crack open a huge LightWave market for medical imaging. A combo of VoluMedic + LightWave prices out cheaper than other medical imaging software packages, produces higher-quality renders than competing medical imaging products, and it can run on a modern laptop.

Gui Lo
07-05-2006, 09:15 PM
In my view the work produced with LW is still impressive and apparrently easier to do than with other apps. That is why it is still being used.

IMHO NewTek need to look seriously about new ways(media) for doing documentation of LW's features. The vidz are great but we need in-depth versions too. Podcasts with images maybe? There needs to be online textual/image tutorials and smaller PDFs for each feature.
There are so many areas that I simply haven't had the hours to play with. The sad thing is that good results can be reached quickly but hours are spent trying out combinations in order to find them.

Rather than a rewrite LW code NewTek should take time to write indepth documentation on new forms of media. So we know not just what features are available but also where to get to them and how to use them properly.

RedBull
07-05-2006, 09:36 PM
I'd heard that modo allows users to customize its interface...within limits. One modo user remarked to me that one could not place more than two controls side-by-side.

Not sure exactly what he means, you can make interfaces in interfaces so it's fairly doable in my view. But still my point being it's a global solution which fixes many of the problems. A Maya person can use Maya shortcuts and handles and set the interface up like Maya. For myself i setup Modo like Modeler. (ironic) but it feels similar to what i like in Modeler, but with the extra custimization to fix a few minor things without my need for NT to do it for me. But again it's buggy, and i get a lot of crashes, which just prooves why NT must do a parrallel changeover, and avoid the LW6 situation.



I'm sure modo is a good modeler and renderer, but $800 is more than what I am willing to pay for what it does at this time.

I agree it's too expensive for what it is, and it's still not complete enough to enable myself to leave Modeler for many tasks. But i do see the power it will have if it's supported by third parties and grows some good animation tools.
It's like a ground up rebuild of LW that's just at version 2.0. I personally hope NT build an excellent LW10 before Modo builds an excellent Modo4.


I have invested $75 in the LWCAD2.0 upgrade instead; that should tide me over until the LightWave Modeler completes its parallel changeover.

I agree that LW Modeler to me is just so comfortable and there is not much i can't model in LW as of LW7 really, edges and ngons do complete it's tool set. Edges are helpful Modeler needs better OGL speed and consildation of tools. All tools need to be made to the new interactive class similar to what TruArt and Victor have been doing lately.

David Ikeda needs to round up a list of all the benefits of what others like pictrix have done to lower the amount of 3rd party and scripts and plugins i rely on to do everyday tasks. And especially for 64bit uptake. All the power is there again just needs some TLC. But it depends on integration on how much time is spent on improvements in Modeler i guess.
LWCAD 1 & 2 are excellent and not just for CAD people.


Well, VoluMedic (http://www.volumedic.com/) looks like it's about to crack open a huge LightWave market for medical imaging. A combo of VoluMedic + LightWave prices out cheaper than other medical imaging software packages, produces higher-quality renders than competing medical imaging products, and it can run on a modern laptop.

Totally agree with your thinking, i think this plugin shows exactly the power
of what's possible from LW to create roots in emerging markets.

I think the potential for people to make a lot of money from Volumedic exists in the place i live personally. I think the potential for a young person to invest in LW and Volumedic and rip a crapload of money off doctors who often do the same thing in return. Remember people these people drive Porsche's and BMW's!!! :) But this rapid prototyping and mechanical engineering, archviz, previz, medical, LW can gain some share before the others steal that with their much deeper pockets.

The problem for LW is even Blender, Hexagon2, Silo2 and Carrera5.1 are starting to catch up to a lot of LW's ideas, they are in a sense new generation tools, that are custimizable and flexible in their approach and are starting to have good implentations with quick turnaround times.

The whole way 3D is being thought, made and used has evolved from where it was when Seaquest DSV was top dog. LW has not kept up for various reasons, i hope to see it stay up to date for a long time.

Because i can see so many simple and poweful ways LW could be improved
with just the basis of the amount and wealth of great ideas and code that LW has. It just needs to be harnessed in a way that is more usable and flexible for the newer and more common tasks it's users face on a daily basis.

Anyway i've almost said this before anyway, so i won't continue to voice my opinion everytime a similar topic is raised. Cause to me these discussions are not AntiLW to myself, they are pro LW. If people loved XSI SOOO much they would not be here at all..... It's because i still love LW so much, i still am.

LW9 is a stronger release than the last few and really if anything i only see better things for it's future. But i do acknowledge a few things it needs to done to ensure it's better too.

And really my only question is, how fast we can get there... I like to see NT move quicker, not easy to do though....

Blenders development in 12months is nothing short of outstanding for various reasons. But it's new multithreading, render preview, nodes and mutipass rendering, group instancing, fluids implentations.

If this keeps up, all of these upgrades and maintainance contracts can go jump, i'll go for blender.. :) I really must stop typing today...

faulknermano
07-05-2006, 10:21 PM
So it looks like I am the only one that thinks that newtek took a great program and ran it into the ground??? It is a patched together, unacceptable mess, compared to what it could and should be!

maybe you're looking at it more academically than you should. there are serious disadvantages of being an "unacceptable mess", that is true. but if you fail to grasp the strengths of LW, and the corresponding weakness of other applications who are more "organised", and say newtek took a great program down to the ground, then that's simply being idealistic. you are not appreciating the application for what it is.

i wouldnt mind if you said it was a "mess" or if it was "patched" together, because i think so too. but i wouldnt say that newtek took LW to the ground at all. i can say that despite being a "mess" or "patched together", LW is a great app. i do agree that if it was as "organised" as Maya, it would *probably* rule the world. but life isnt perfect and it never will.

faulknermano
07-05-2006, 10:42 PM
IMHO NewTek need to look seriously about new ways(media) for doing documentation of LW's features. The vidz are great but we need in-depth versions too. Podcasts with images maybe?

i dont know about videos, but clear, specific language in documentation would be great. call me serious, but i dont quite care about "chatty"-sounding documentation. i like the notes section and trivia stuff, but dont spill it over the documentation's meat.

sometimes the features are just glossed over, as if the doc writer lost enthusiasm in explaining what this control was there for. i really hate that. i mean i REALLY hate that. in the LW7 manual, despite being my favorite manual (compared to outstandingly-confusing LW8 docs), section 17.25 we get a lame explanation of how a collision with object-advanced set is different from object-subdiv. i'm sure it's different. but just how, the docs dont say.

in the wind controller (PFX) section, many of the winds are not even mentioned. then it gets REALLY BAD when the docs say "You can get a feel for what the setting does by look at the wind indicators" true, i'm thinking. but then why am i looking at the docs? :help:

for me, and some may disagree, Maya's help system and language is the best. clear, concise (when it can) and comprehensive, pointing to you to the most in-depth stuff even of MEL commands.

i think LW has alot of 3rd training material, so i suggest not writing the manual "casually". make it a reference material from which all users and developers can refer to for technical insights. just my opinion.

habaņero
07-05-2006, 11:02 PM
Earth is a patched together unacceptable bloddy mess compared to what it should be. Look what humans did to it!

RedBull
07-06-2006, 01:06 AM
maybe you're looking at it more academically than you should. there are serious disadvantages of being an "unacceptable mess", that is true. but if you fail to grasp the strengths of LW, and the corresponding weakness of other applications who are more "organised", and say newtek took a great program down to the ground, then that's simply being idealistic. you are not appreciating the application for what it is.

i wouldnt mind if you said it was a "mess" or if it was "patched" together, because i think so too. but i wouldnt say that newtek took LW to the ground at all. i can say that despite being a "mess" or "patched together", LW is a great app. i do agree that if it was as "organised" as Maya, it would *probably* rule the world. but life isnt perfect and it never will.

Yeah i totally agree with everything that you just wrote...:thumbsup:

Nemoid
07-06-2006, 03:51 AM
I mostly agree with Redbull opinions here.

the fundamental thing for Nt now is to have a solid and logic development strategy for Lw.

the goal should be to make Lw become more modern, hopefully integrated, and flexible, but still , fast as now is.

flexibility and power can be joined to speed and intuitiveness for sure.

apps like Maya and XSI are flexible and powerful, but they're not 100% intuitive in their workflow, and more

well, there's a better path to take.

With a good , well planned work, even looking very attentively to what is strong in other apps, and what is strong in Lw now, is actually possible to solve problems from their roots more and more, address the areas which now are weaker and make em develop in the near future.

its also possible some well thought good level of innovation, thinking with the animator in mind.

we're not technics , but artists. and this is a key point around wich to develop.
sure, some tasks cannot avoid to be approached technically, but the more the artistic gesture is introduced within ana app, the easier and funnier becomes tro work with it.

as for development its not a matter to reinvent the wheel where is not required, but rather to enhance what now, even in other apps is not as intuitive as could seem at the first glance.


about nodal : here i don't agree, Red. nodal is not a simple plug thrown in Lw as it was. it is within the app and i think its power will be expanded more and more. its also quite well made at UI design level. it appears to me very logic and direct to the point, despite nodal approach being complex.

the possibility to work with surface editor too is the best thing : what's faster/better can be choosed depending on what you need.

i do know that Lw core is not nodal, but it could become nodal afterwards, and in the meantime we'll have nodal shading, displacement, volumetric lighting... not bad at all.:)

Nitisara
07-06-2006, 05:10 AM
Scrap Lightwave, Yep you heard me, release Nine then forget about it, throw it in the bin.
3D Kiwi, I agree with you. Although NT declares improvements through 9.x cycle and beyond, my personal opinion is that they are just losing their precious time.
Version 8.5 was quite solid to leave it for 2 years to have a time span to develop new application.
As it is going now, NT is just delaying the final breath of LW, taking all their efforts in supporting very old application.

There are 2 arguments which I heard regarding that:
1) Even 2 years are not enough to build new application from scratch. Look at Luxology...
2) LW is in its best shape and getting even better. I love LW!!!!!!

Well, what can be said about that? Quite simple things:
1) Luxology is not the best example of software development company. If they work slow this doesn't mean that everybody works also that speed.
2) LW is better only regarding itself. But its workflow is very outdated. If you make freelance with 1-2 characters you can love its simple workflow, but if you make 100s of scenes with 3-10 heavily equipped characters you will meet the nightmare - from animation till lighting. Rendering is another topic: absence of motion blur and DOF makes situation almost critical.

My vision:
- to leave LW as it is ASAP;
- dedicate 5-6 good programmers to write new app in 1.5 years - it will successfully replace LW which would exist in 2007;
- develop it further to support future technologies.

Be afraid of Autodesk, who may come up with new application when Maya will RIP. They may start new era of one-for-all 3D application, and I think no hobbit will save us from this... even LW patched to 10.x version.

Now NT has a short time pause, and if they will not use it wisely, they will face much bigger difficulties than they have now.

colkai
07-06-2006, 05:21 AM
The truth is folks, ever since version 4.0 hit the PC, this same story had been played out over and over again.
How Newtek are lagging behind, how LW is dead / dying / obsolete / a mess (choose your poison).
Every release since, same story, many of the same people doing the venting and saying how they've been "robbed" etc. etc.

Now here we are at the START of a new development cycle and the same songs are being played again.
If LW does not suit you and every release has disappointed you, why are you still using it when the other packages in your own minds are so superior?

If you are using it but it is not what you want, then the onus is upon you to choose the package which DOES give you what you want.

If I use something that does not suit my needs, I cannot hold the company responisble for failing to produce a package which does suit my needs and therefore is slowing me down if I am not taking advantage of one I think will suit my needs you see?

Yes, LW has a ways to go, it needs work, but again, only the developers know what exactly has changed and what the future roadmap for change will be. We as users have zero right to know what that may be, I as a coder am not beholden to you or anyone else to tell you my plans for any software I may, or may not write in the future.

Only in 3D have I seen this bizzare concept that a user should hold a company accountable to tell their future development. Which actually, flies completely in the face of what some folks are asking here, for Newtek to "go silent". Correct me if I'm wrong, but how can you have them go silent and then tell you what they are doing?

This is utter nonsense and any of you who code for a living, or even for a hobby, should be aware of this. If you think otherwise, then right here, right now, I DEMAND to know what plans you have for any future software you may think of producing.
What are you going to incorporate into it, if it isn't waht I want, I insist you change your plans to accommodate me.

There you go, just how daft does that sound?

Nitisara
07-06-2006, 05:22 AM
NT already lost one year: it would be better if they would just put those new plugins in LW as they were, and implemented KD-Tree as an option to render.
Really what they did during this year doesn't cost spent time. Half of year just fighting with tons of bugs is so obvious that needs no comments.

mattclary
07-06-2006, 05:36 AM
- dedicate 5-6 good programmers to write new app in 1.5 years - it will successfully replace LW which would exist in 2007;


Put down the crack pipe, please! LW9 is SEVEN months past due! What do you think the programmers at NewTek do all day? What do you think Lux does all day? Writing a complex piece of code takes longer than you realize. If you are a big company, you can throw 50 developers at a piece of code and maybe finish it in that time, but NewTek does not have the manpower to get it done that quickly.

Nitisara
07-06-2006, 05:37 AM
What are you going to incorporate into it, if it isn't waht I want, I insist you change your plans to accommodate me.
Dear colkai, NT is making software for sell, they are not making it for themselves - they make it for people. And yes, the more people would be satisfied with company's solution - the more successfull application will be. And it is very natural for people to give advises to the company WHICH SERVES THOSE CUSTOMERS. Sorry, they get money for that.
The better company will satisfy its users - in bigger profit it will gain. The more it listens to its customers - the better it will satisfy users in future. That is why people are speaking with the company on the Forum.
You don't find it natural that users put their requests and advises? They should better keep quiet or just praise? Or what?

mattclary
07-06-2006, 05:48 AM
And it is very natural for people to give advises to the company WHICH SERVES THOSE CUSTOMERS.

Go give your advice to Autodesk then. I agree with Colkai, if the other apps are better, why the heck are you still using LightWave?

Let me tell you something. Now read this slowly and let it sink in:

No matter how many retarded posts you guys make, you are not going to convince NewTek to go dark and re-write Lightwave from the ground up. It is not going to happen.

Nitisara
07-06-2006, 05:49 AM
Put down the crack pipe, please! LW9 is SEVEN months past due! What do you think the programmers at NewTek do all day?
I just told - fighting with bugs, produced by intrusion in outdated core.

And 3D software limitation is not only bugs, produced during coding. It is a minor problem. Major 3D software problem is that when it is planned, it is developed for certain workflow. And it is VERY HARD to radically change workflow in next releases. So, I want to say that ANY SUCCESSFUL application is doomed to be outdated some day, because workflows change, vision of artists also change.
That is the main reason why all 3D companies have to completely remake their software to stay on the flow. And NT is not an exclusion. They would have to. Or their market will diminish.
If you would say "BUT THEY ARE REMAKING!" just look at Softimage 3D 3.7 and XSI - and you will see what means "remaking" (note: I am not XSI fan, it was just an example of complete software rewrite to stay modern).

mattclary
07-06-2006, 05:55 AM
I just told - fighting with bugs, produced by intrusion in outdated core.




Programming is a hard process of bugs creation, and then even harder their elimination.

So how long do you think it will take them to fix the bugs they create in that 18 month period? Should we add another 1.5 years for them to have bug free code?

There is no such thing as bug free code.

Nitisara
07-06-2006, 05:57 AM
I agree with Colkai, if the other apps are better, why the heck are you still using LightWave?
Dear mattclary, it seems that you are not reading my posts at all: where I said that some software is better than LW? If nowhere, then why are you saying this?
May I remind you the main idea of this discussion: how to make LW even better. Nobody is saying that LW is worse that XXX or YYY software.

mattclary
07-06-2006, 06:02 AM
where I said that some software is better than LW?



As it is going now, NT is just delaying the final breath of LW

Why will LightWave die if other applications are no better?



Be afraid of Autodesk, who may come up with new application when Maya will RIP. They may start new era of one-for-all 3D application, and I think no hobbit will save us from this... even LW patched to 10.x version.


If this uber 3D app will be so great, you should wait for it, sounds like it will be just what you are looking for. it will be written from the ground up, so it must be good.

YOU should go back and re-read some posts. Autodesk does not have a history of providing the most bang for the buck. Repeatedly people have talked about how they can't afford other packages, how LightWave excels in VALUE.

Nitisara
07-06-2006, 06:06 AM
Why will LightWave die if other applications are no better?
They are not better now. But we are speaking about future of software, and I expressed my opinion regarding 2 year perspective in the future. I want LW to be the best at that time also.
The way it goes now makes me worrying...

Kuzey
07-06-2006, 06:06 AM
I thought that Newtek was remaking LW with v9 and onwards. As I see it, once they get the UB/Xcode version out then things will be quicker in terms of new development.

But that's just me.

Kuzey

mattclary
07-06-2006, 06:12 AM
They are not better now. But we are speaking about future of software, and I expressed my opinion regarding 2 year perspective in the future. I want LW to be the best at that time also.
The way it goes now makes me worrying...

If they have kept up this long, I wouldn't worry about what is going to happen in two years time.

Why are you worried, no other app has been able to exceed the quality of LightWave in all these years, by your own admission?

If XSI had a ground up re-write and is still no better than LightWave, WHY ARE YOU WORRIED?

colkai
07-06-2006, 06:32 AM
Dear colkai, NT is making software for sell, they are not making it for themselves - they make it for people.

So do I, the software I write is used from the Highlands of Scotland to the very edge of the UK.

krimpr
07-06-2006, 06:33 AM
3D Kiwi, I agree with you. Although NT declares improvements through 9.x cycle and beyond, my personal opinion is that they are just losing their precious time.
Version 8.5 was quite solid to leave it for 2 years to have a time span to develop new application.
As it is going now, NT is just delaying the final breath of LW, taking all their efforts in supporting very old application.

There are 2 arguments which I heard regarding that:
1) Even 2 years are not enough to build new application from scratch. Look at Luxology...
2) LW is in its best shape and getting even better. I love LW!!!!!!

Well, what can be said about that? Quite simple things:
1) Luxology is not the best example of software development company. If they work slow this doesn't mean that everybody works also that speed.
2) LW is better only regarding itself. But its workflow is very outdated. If you make freelance with 1-2 characters you can love its simple workflow, but if you make 100s of scenes with 3-10 heavily equipped characters you will meet the nightmare - from animation till lighting. Rendering is another topic: absence of motion blur and DOF makes situation almost critical.

My vision:
- to leave LW as it is ASAP;
- dedicate 5-6 good programmers to write new app in 1.5 years - it will successfully replace LW which would exist in 2007;
- develop it further to support future technologies.

Be afraid of Autodesk, who may come up with new application when Maya will RIP. They may start new era of one-for-all 3D application, and I think no hobbit will save us from this... even LW patched to 10.x version.

Now NT has a short time pause, and if they will not use it wisely, they will face much bigger difficulties than they have now.

Brilliant post IMO. Especially the warning about Autodesks probable all-in-one 3d solution direction seeming quite likely. We use Autodesk's "Inventor" here, and have seen the implementation of improved rendering features implemented with each release. Not to a level of LW or Maya by any means, but certainly well beyond what is required for construction drawings and moving into product previsulalization. A merge of disciplines is undoubtably on the horizon. I say this not because I have respect for Autodesk, but because I hate them and their policies. I love Lightwave and they have my 100% support, and wish Newtek to be successful. Colkai, you have always been the voice of reason with your posts in my view but have to say that this time your blinders may be on a little too tight.:D Dismissing radical courses of action is why General Motors is bleeding red ink and Japanese manufacturing facilities are dotting the North American landscape. Lightwave satisfies all of my amateur requirements completely; in fact anything above 7.5 for me has been superfluous and subsequent upgrades have been in support of NT and satisfy a desire to stay current. But ultimately I feel that the ground is shifting and I hope that Newtek takes the appropriate steps to shift with it.

colkai
07-06-2006, 06:50 AM
Brilliant post IMO. Especially the warning about Autodesks probable all-in-one 3d solution direction seeming quite likely.

Yeah, Autodesk, gotta love their way of handling customers.

As to what may be 2 or 3 years down the road, by all means hold out for it, but by then, what about the next app, 2 or 3 years down the road, or the next 3 years later. Waiting for the perfect solution it a total waste of time.

How'd your client like it if you said, "well yeah, I can giveyou this shot, but if you wait 3 years, the new software will aloow me to make it sooo much better". Hehe, yeah, like anyone would even contemplate such a thing.


Colkai, you have always been the voice of reason with your posts in my view but have to say that this time your blinders may be on a little too tight.:D Dismissing radical courses of action is why General Motors is bleeding red ink and Japanese manufacturing facilities are dotting the North American landscape.

So you missed the fact that Celshader pointed out that by "going silent" XSI lost a huge user base who will no longer switch back over due to the time invested in a competing product?

If any developer goes silent, to the user, that means only one thing, time to switch apps because looks like the old one is dead in the water.

No, trust me, I ain't got no blinkers. It's a comon and very popular mis-conception here that those of us who use LW have the attitdue that it is fine as is and requires no changes. BBzzzt, wrong.

Newtek have stated, categorically, what their future development plans are, why people refuse to accept what they have said and more amazingly, insist that Newtek drop their development strategy based on the whims of a user who thinks that at some point a super-uber-cool product may be on the horizon and do "the right thing" escapes me.

So if Newtek turned around and told you, no more LW updates for the next 2 years, anyone of you would say "ok, I'll sit here and wait and I will buy what they produce as and when". Total nonsense, you'd see another package in the interim, be fed up of the silence from Newtek (silence you requested) and take your money elsewhere.

The fact that some people have this idealogical stance that an all singing all dancing, written from the ground up, cutting edge product can be done in this manner is mind boggling.

LW - Not perfect
XSI - not perfect,
Maya - Not perfect
Max - not perfect
C4D - Not perfect
Houdini - not perfect
Motionbuiler - not perfect

..some of these products have been around a heck of a long time, why do you really think that the next incarnation is going to be any different, simply because the developer is not saying anything about it? :stumped: :screwy:

May I point those of you who are struggling with the concept, to the roadmap laid out by Newtek, the one they are following, the one they are not going to drop based on some theories of would be users of any new version.

http://www.newtek.com/lightwave/lwfuturedev.php
http://www.newtek.com/lightwave/devupdate.php

THIS is their product, in their control, you want input in it's devlopment, you'd best be on the development team. Come on folks, this is NOT rocket science, a user can request changes, ask if they can have certain features, but it's crazy to think any company is going to drop everything and do whatever the user fancies might be a good idea for their whole development structure.

This ain't a blinkered view, it's a statement of reality, heck, I work inside a software house, I can just see the Tech directors reaction if I went and told him he is running his business all wrong and his structure needs to be revised to suit me.
I'd be on the street, P45 in hand in very short order and rightly so.

Nemoid
07-06-2006, 06:51 AM
There's no perfect software in the world.

every software has its problems and every workflow is unperfect because the needs change, innovation makes new ideas and desires happen, technology changes too.

the best way to handle this is to be very attentive to what new tools/ideas pop out,pay attention to standards too.
and however to always focus development with the artist in mind.

also, as time passes things have to become more and more easier and intuitive.

BTW is easy to say this in words, but's not easy at all to make it for real


p.s. as an example, we could talk abot why 6.0 wasn't actually a true and total rewrite. at that age, Modeler and Layout should have been integrated
and things become nodal. a company with great attention on what was happening in the 3D industry with Max and Maya would have taken a different development path.

but now, we are into a different age. team is different. dev path is different and we can only make some good suggestion to make it very good. so far i'm not disappointed at all.

mattclary
07-06-2006, 07:05 AM
It's a comon and very popular mis-conception here that those of us who use LW have the attitdue that it is fine as is and requires no changes. BBzzzt, wrong.

Agreed 100%. LightWave has a lot of room for improvement. The lack of OpenGL improvements in modeler is driving me batsh*t, but I like the way LightWave feels in my hand.

colkai
07-06-2006, 07:20 AM
we are into a different age. team is different. dev path is different and we can only make some good suggestion to make it very good. so far i'm not disappointed at all.
Agree totally.
We as users should always request features, ask for changes to be considered, I've made enough posts on what I waould like to see in the LW9.X cycle for sure. There is plenty of room for imrpovement.

Like yourself though, so far, the new team have been far more responsive to users and I am hopeful the trend will continue and improve.

When all is said and done however, only Newtek can make the choice of what they will and will not do, we can only hope our requests are not things that are impossible or too unwieldy and too lengthy to implement. :)

pooby
07-06-2006, 07:37 AM
LW - Not perfect
XSI - not perfect,
Maya - Not perfect
Max - not perfect
C4D - Not perfect
Houdini - not perfect
Motionbuiler - not perfect



I think taking 'perfection' as a level to judge anything by is a little silly, as everything is going to be beneath it.
It doesn't logcally follow that all beneath 'perfection' are roughly the same quality.

colkai
07-06-2006, 07:52 AM
Never said otherwise, in fact, I wholeheartedly agree, which was kinda my point really, to expect a new product, which may or may not get created, to be the perfect all-encompassing solution, is vaingloriously optimistic at best. The history of pretty much everyone of those packages and more are littered with examples that suggest the contrary I would wager.

However, this isn't about which is currently best, it's about the assumption that going silent and writing a whole new app is a guarantee of the best product possible whilst still managing to retain a user base.
This has zero chance of happening with LW anyway as we already know what Newtek have in mind based on their info.
My sincere hope is, regardless of if folks think it is still lagging behind etc. etc. by the time LW9 cycle is done, that we will have a lightwave which is vastly superior to it's prior incarnations.
As to what features it will have, we can make our requests and hope Newtek are still able to bring some surprises to the table. It will not, this I can assure you, be all things to all people, nothing ever is, nor indeed could it ever be, folks are just too plain diverse.

Meantimes, we do what we do.

TSpyrison
07-06-2006, 07:56 AM
Well, All I have to say is that I’m happy with Lightwave.
I’m happy with the new development team and leadership, and I’m happy in the direction that things are moving.

Is it perfect? Nope. Do I want “Cool new feature _______” ? Sure..
Am I going to cry in my milk because its not there? Nope..

Roux
07-06-2006, 07:56 AM
Well, this has been a fun read.
my 2 cents worth:

6 years ago, I was over the increasingly resource hungry and buggy 3DS Max and Autodesk Australia were Pr*cks to deal with.
I moved to LW.
I love LW and it has paid for most of my humble studio and a lot of other things. It is my trusty "hand saw" and is still great for exterior arch vis, instructional graphics, anything still frame and even high-poly high res broadcast shots (in LW9 btw).
I now also own a number of other 3d apps which are used for their strengths or efficiencies. Each of them has amazing features but I wouldn't say that they are better or worse than LW - just different.
(Q:Is a screwdriver better than a wrench? A: depends if you are trying to undo a screw or a bolt.)

I do worry about the long term viability of NT but as a consumer, that's not my battle. If they become extinct, it'll be because there is a similar or better product that has captured that segment of the market. If not, then they have obviously done enough to stay in business.

One area I can say that lightwave is streaks ahead of any other app is the community. Disagreements aside, it is by far the most open, sharing and helpful IMHO.

t4d
07-06-2006, 08:21 AM
I think taking 'perfection' as a level to judge anything by is a little silly, as everything is going to be beneath it.
It doesn't logcally follow that all beneath 'perfection' are roughly the same quality.

agree nothing is prefect, judging using the perfection standard is just silly

Saying nothing is prefect just to make LW sound like it's just as near prefection as the rest just doesn't work.

I can write afew paragraphs on XSI and Messiah Negatives,
After using messiah and XSI, I could write a BOOK on Lightwave's problems.

honestly most of what is better in XSI and messiah are not the marketing Features it's the whole solid open, powerful, FAST, framework
once you get your head around that,.. the features are just a bonus.
LW is just plain OLD in it's structure

the modo Comments do have some founding I have Modo 201 it's a great modeler excellent direction to start off in
but it's far off lightwave in term of a complete 3d package and may take as long to grow into Somthing as the LW's rewrite......

but so far there's no real sign of Newtek dealing with LW biggest problem Animation ..... Still not sure why so much render work was done for LW 9 when it's LW most useful feature and they still have not moved on Animation or the workflow rewrite LW needs.. the main reason i uses LW's render is Fprime/G2 & LW's surface panel ( not nodes if i wanted nodes I'd be in XSI)

when they do it and get LW's new frame work working,..
where will XSI and messiah be then ?

t4d
07-06-2006, 08:22 AM
I think taking 'perfection' as a level to judge anything by is a little silly, as everything is going to be beneath it.
It doesn't logcally follow that all beneath 'perfection' are roughly the same quality.

agree nothing is prefect, judging using the perfection standard is just silly

Saying nothing is prefect just to make LW sound like it's just as near prefection as the rest just doesn't work.

I can write afew paragraphs on XSI and Messiah Negatives,
After using messiah and XSI, I could write a BOOK on Lightwave's problems.

honestly most of what is better in XSI and messiah are not the marketing Features it's the whole solid open, powerful, FAST, framework
once you get your head around that,.. the features are just a bonus.
LW is just plain OLD in it's structure

the modo Comments do have some founding I have Modo 201 it's a great modeler excellent direction to start off in
but it's far off lightwave in term of a complete 3d package and may take as long to grow into Somthing as the LW's rewrite......

but so far there's no real sign of Newtek dealing with LW biggest problem Animation ..... Still not sure why so much render work was done for LW 9 when it's LW most useful feature and they still have not moved on Animation or the workflow rewrite LW needs.. the main reason i uses LW's render is Fprime/G2 & LW's surface panel ( not nodes if i wanted nodes I'd be in XSI)

when they do it and get it LW new frame work working,..
where will XSI and messiah be then ?

colkai
07-06-2006, 08:57 AM
agree nothing is prefect, judging using the perfection standard is just silly
Sigh, yes, I agree, what part of that seems to be escaping people?



Saying nothing is prefect just to make LW sound like it's just as near prefection as the rest just doesn't work.
I can write afew paragraphs on XSI and Messiah Negatives,
After using messiah and XSI, I could write a BOOK on Lightwave's problems.

Peter, no really, truly, we get, honest, we do, enough already.

This is exactly what I was trying to avoid, but some folks it seems, really cannot help themselves. :cry: :cry:

My last post on the subject 'cause I can see we are now into the usual territory. :stop: :thumbsdow

habaņero
07-06-2006, 09:24 AM
"but so far there's no real sign of Newtek dealing with LW biggest problem Animation ....."

Then Newtek have specifically stated that animation upgrading is sceduled for after release.

tyrot
07-06-2006, 10:02 AM
My last post on the subject 'cause I can see we are now into the usual territory. :stop: :thumbsdow

dear colkai

same here.....

one thing though there are signs on animation part...
there are newsletters from directly Jay, there are roadmaps, hundreds of newtek staff's posts.. and still for some there are no signs...

Yes there is no sign of recovery for some souls....

but there are very good signs for Lightwave future. I see it, colkai sees it, the whole community sees it and wait for it.

One thing though was making me sad, nitisara, respected plugin writer was totally bitter and somehow totally negative about current changes. Sad but it is ok. He does not seem ok anymore in my book since he doesnt even download Free LWCAD as a gift. So i dont trust his objective judgements about LW future. He must have some other motives in his mind. I dont know..

I always trust evolution instead of revolution. Because revolution is bubble marketing stuff. Noone **** cares about revolution. Because we are working everyday , serving the clients, giving our services , making our renders and making us wealthy. I love evolutions. And Jay and his team is giving the evolution. If you ask me in terms of Lightwave history this is revolutionary step.

For my business, this year, i will add more seats, get more LW copies. So i m comfy and happy with this revolutionary evolution.

BEST

t4d
07-06-2006, 10:05 AM
modo has shown real video demo's of they animation system at last years siggraph, looked really cool,.. but doesn't mean Modo has animation does it ?

marketing statements are cool, but as the Old the saying goes...
" you can't count your chickens before that hatch "

Kurtis
07-06-2006, 11:15 AM
Well, this thread has officially gone way too far. It is now closed.