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View Full Version : How about two mouses in LW



DiedonD
07-01-2006, 02:59 AM
Does anybody knows weather its is possible to make two mouses available in LW?

I havent seen any of it in Windows, so Im not sure weather you could even use two mouses on Windows to start with. But could you have 2 working mouses on LW. Like move around with two mouse pointers at the same time.

I think it would improve character control on animation. You could move the body and raise a hand at the same time, you could move legs at the same time, enabling a far faster animation.

I know in Wacom you have a pen and a mouse. Could you use both of them at the same time?

Still thats different than using two mouses, which I think is better.

DogBoy
07-01-2006, 03:10 AM
Does anybody knows weather its is possible to make two mouses available in LW?

Windows doesn't allow two pointers, AFAIK. You can have 2 mice, but they both move the same pointer (same wi the Wacom).


I think it would improve character control on animation. You could move the body and raise a hand at the same time, you could move legs at the same time, enabling a far faster animation.

Theotically you could set up a "game-Claw" to allow the view rotation/move component and use the mouse for moving the model


I know in Wacom you have a pen and a mouse. Could you use both of them at the same time?.

No, Windows get's confused. Your mouse gets erratic, so you DO NOT want to be using LW like that, unless you like random animation ;)

DiedonD
07-01-2006, 03:14 AM
Theotically you could set up a "game-Claw" to allow the view rotation/move component and use the mouse for moving the model


COuld you elaborate further please. Im all ears. How do you set up a "Game-Claw" and what is that anyway? WIll it and the mouse affect the character?
Thanks :D

Martin Adams
07-01-2006, 03:39 AM
Don't know if its possible, but I'd certainly be interested if anyone knows how to have two independant mice on a machine with a dual monitor - locking each mouse to one of the screens. Oh, and working on Windows :)

DiedonD
07-01-2006, 03:50 AM
Don't know if its possible, but I'd certainly be interested if anyone knows how to have two independant mice on a machine with a dual monitor - locking each mouse to one of the screens. Oh, and working on Windows :)

Its interesting isnt it. Maybe NewTek can work appart from Windows with some sort of plugin tool, that would enable you to work with two mouse pointers at the same time, for added control and workflow, espacially in animation.

Bog
07-01-2006, 08:18 AM
"Claw" programmable USB input device (http://forums.hexus.net/showthread.php?t=3948)

Basically a plugin set of extra keys which you can program via it's driver to provide specific key inputs.

Then again, my mouse is set up at the moment to Big Thumb Button is Weld, Small Thumb Button is Knife and the middle button toggles bevel. Yay Intellipoint drivers.

PixelDust
07-01-2006, 02:03 PM
The Wacom Intuos 2 (and maybe Intuos 1) tablets allowed you to use the pen and the Wacom mouse on the tablet at the same time. They called it "Dual Track".

From what I read on the Wacom Europe forum, they dropped Dual Track from the Intuos 3 because not many people used it, and not much software was written to take advantage of it. I have an Intuos 2, but I never tried using Dual Track in Lightwave, so I don't know if it works or not.

lots
07-01-2006, 03:50 PM
Why would you want two independant mice locked to two different monitors?

It would absolutly suck to have to move my hand to another mouse just to use that screen. Plus Windows does not allow for multiple windows to have focus. Just one, you'd have to click on whatever was in the other monitor that you wanted to modify....

Seems more annoying than anything else :) But thats me.

Martin Adams
07-01-2006, 04:17 PM
Why would you want two independant mice locked to two different monitors?

It would absolutly suck to have to move my hand to another mouse just to use that screen. Plus Windows does not allow for multiple windows to have focus. Just one, you'd have to click on whatever was in the other monitor that you wanted to modify....

Seems more annoying than anything else :) But thats me.

You are correct that Windows can only have one window open at a time. The reason why is because I'm reguarly involved in some community work for schools at work. We develop software activities to help educate students in science, engineering and technology. As we tend to run software on laptops and have a dual monitor configuration, it would be nice if we could use one laptop but two students.

In fact, I'm managed to turn up an application which demonstrates this in use:
http://www.cs.umd.edu/hcil/kiddesign/kidpad.shtml

Aparently if you plug two USB mice in, each mouse will take control of a different tool.

I think for me to accomplish this it might involve some custom programming and not rely on Windows doing the mouse event handling.

BusyWolf
07-02-2006, 04:59 AM
Not long ago I could not move my curser and when I tried it would move about a quarter inch and spring back to the same position. After a long night of tech support and system restore it remained. :stumped:
Then after cleaning the desk I found that I had put my Wacom mouse and pen on top of the tablet which was pushed to the side. So my other mouse would not work! Hours wasted over that one. :screwy:
Two windows can be open at the same time but as it has been noted only one can be on focus at a time. As for the two cursers being controlled independently and at the same time, software would have to be written. Even with my Dual-core processor you need software to create a second curser and assign it to the second input control (mouse or tablet etc.). I do not know if I am that coordinated
After all that babbling I do not have an answer at this time but would be interested in seeing the solution to your dilemma!

DiedonD
07-03-2006, 02:01 AM
You are correct that Windows can only have one window open at a time. The reason why is because I'm reguarly involved in some community work for schools at work. We develop software activities to help educate students in science, engineering and technology. As we tend to run software on laptops and have a dual monitor configuration, it would be nice if we could use one laptop but two students.

In fact, I'm managed to turn up an application which demonstrates this in use:
http://www.cs.umd.edu/hcil/kiddesign/kidpad.shtml

Aparently if you plug two USB mice in, each mouse will take control of a different tool.

I think for me to accomplish this it might involve some custom programming and not rely on Windows doing the mouse event handling.

Hi Martin....Are you saying you can develop a software that would enable to mouse pointers to work on the same time in LW?! :heart: :hey:

Martin Adams
07-03-2006, 06:37 AM
Hi Martin....Are you saying you can develop a software that would enable to mouse pointers to work on the same time in LW?! :heart: :hey:

Well, I very much doubt that I'd be able to do it simply because I don't know how or would have the time to.

But in theory, it would be possible for someone to write a plugin that talks to the mice based on its USB port (not as a pointer). Somehow disable the non-primary mouse as a windows mouse pointer (even if that is possible?), and remap the input to LightWave.

There is a Java library that KidPad used:
http://www.cs.umd.edu/hcil/mid/

But, it only works on ME and 98 and probably not XP or OSX. Let alone getting Java to talk to LightWave.

Martin Adams
07-03-2006, 07:24 AM
Although, a quick Google did turn up this cross platform library that can read multiple mice:
http://icculus.org/manymouse/

No idea how easy it is to write LW plugins that are compiled.

lots
07-03-2006, 01:18 PM
This is something that would likely be usable as a driver in windows. If you knwo how to write one that is :)

mattclary
07-03-2006, 01:24 PM
I'm sorry, but this seems like a dumb idea to me. Why the h*ll would you want to do this? If I understand the original post, you seem to think it would help you manipulate a model easier, but I just don't see it. LW isn't designed to work that way and it still seems like a silly idea.

Martin Adams, what you need is Terminal Server if you want multiple people to be able to use one computer at the same time.

Martin Adams
07-03-2006, 01:36 PM
Martin Adams, what you need is Terminal Server if you want multiple people to be able to use one computer at the same time.

But I'll still need one client per student and since I only have access to laptops I'm back where I started.

But going back on topic original topic of animation control in LightWave - I don't think I'd have the coordination to use both mice at the same time.

It would be like using two FrogPads (http://www.frogpad.com/), one for each hand at the same time.

marble_sheep
07-04-2006, 12:48 AM
I'm sorry, but this seems like a dumb idea to me. Why the h*ll would you want to do this? If I understand the original post, you seem to think it would help you manipulate a model easier, but I just don't see it. LW isn't designed to work that way and it still seems like a silly idea.

Hahaha... Yeah, I was kind of thinking the same thing as I read through this thread... I'm just glad someone else said it first :D

LW is solidly dependent on keyboard shortcuts... why on earth would you want both of your hands occupied by a mouse? You would either be slowing down to mouse over to a menu command, or slowing down to move one hand to the keyboard. Either way, I can't possibly see how this would be faster.

Now, if we all had computers like they had in Minority Report, then yeah! two hands it is. But we don't... sooo.... :screwy: :stumped:

DiedonD
07-04-2006, 01:59 AM
Hahaha... Yeah, I was kind of thinking the same thing as I read through this thread... I'm just glad someone else said it first :D

LW is solidly dependent on keyboard shortcuts... why on earth would you want both of your hands occupied by a mouse? You would either be slowing down to mouse over to a menu command, or slowing down to move one hand to the keyboard. Either way, I can't possibly see how this would be faster.

Now, if we all had computers like they had in Minority Report, then yeah! two hands it is. But we don't... sooo.... :screwy: :stumped:

Well what about animating both feet at the same time, making a model walk faster?

Or hold down to the toes while you lift the foot in IKBooster, so as it wont move much?

Or Hold down to the bely and have his hands move alone.

Use your imagination. Both hands on the model, would most undoubtedly work better than one, with the option of using keyboard shortcuts as well.

Im not saying throw the keyboard shortcuts to the garbage, you'll still get back to them.

I dont know, contrary what others might feel or think, I believe this would help more with added control of your model.

I think that "Why" it is needed was all clear from the beginning. But since some couldnt see it (:screwy: :stumped: ) and called the idea dumb before having to think about it more, then here....I made it all easier for you.

marble_sheep
07-04-2006, 02:55 AM
I doubt anyone is saying the premise itself isn't worthwhile... it just seems you haven't thought it out properly. It's a simple matter of ergonomics. LW (and the majority of pro apps out there) were all designed with the assumption that the user will be most efficient when using one hand on the mouse and one on the keyboard. Therefore, a departure from that standard assumption means you are forcing the program to behave counter-intuitively. Making it efficient would require a lot more coding than simply adding the ability for two cursors to show up at the same time.

Consider these points...

What you're saying still sounds needlessly complex to me. You talk about wanting to hold one part of the model in place while moving another part. Why not instead have a system where you mouse over an area, hit a key on the keyboard, and that area becomes temporarily "locked"... Thereby allowing you to do the things you just described without the added complexity of dealing with two cursors. I would wager that I could perform that action (mouse over, hit key, mouse away) just as fast as you could position your two cursors.

When I made that Minority Report comment, it was really a veiled analysis of the modern input device. The mouse IS NOT the pinnacle of ergonomic input translation between user and machine. Think about it... why did they start making tablets and pens? Because people didn't want to draw with a mouse. The same applies here, except you have to consider the 3 dimensions of the target material. If you had some kind of hand-tracking system whereby you could position one hand in virtual space over the model, and tweak it with the other hand... then h3llz yeah I'd go for that. That sounds great. But a mouse or two mice or a hundred mice is not the way to accomplish that.

EDIT-- At siggraph last year, I saw a demo of exactly what I was talking about... they used highly refined motion tracking technology to track a user's fingertips, allowing them to control an interface in 3 dimensions. So just hold on, you'll get your wish eventually, but a mouse won't be the way to do it.

DiedonD
07-04-2006, 04:09 AM
I doubt anyone is saying the premise itself isn't worthwhile... it just seems you haven't thought it out properly. It's a simple matter of ergonomics. LW (and the majority of pro apps out there) were all designed with the assumption that the user will be most efficient when using one hand on the mouse and one on the keyboard. Therefore, a departure from that standard assumption means you are forcing the program to behave counter-intuitively. Making it efficient would require a lot more coding than simply adding the ability for two cursors to show up at the same time.

Consider these points...

What you're saying still sounds needlessly complex to me. You talk about wanting to hold one part of the model in place while moving another part. Why not instead have a system where you mouse over an area, hit a key on the keyboard, and that area becomes temporarily "locked"... Thereby allowing you to do the things you just described without the added complexity of dealing with two cursors. I would wager that I could perform that action (mouse over, hit key, mouse away) just as fast as you could position your two cursors.

When I made that Minority Report comment, it was really a veiled analysis of the modern input device. The mouse IS NOT the pinnacle of ergonomic input translation between user and machine. Think about it... why did they start making tablets and pens? Because people didn't want to draw with a mouse. The same applies here, except you have to consider the 3 dimensions of the target material. If you had some kind of hand-tracking system whereby you could position one hand in virtual space over the model, and tweak it with the other hand... then h3llz yeah I'd go for that. That sounds great. But a mouse or two mice or a hundred mice is not the way to accomplish that.

EDIT-- At siggraph last year, I saw a demo of exactly what I was talking about... they used highly refined motion tracking technology to track a user's fingertips, allowing them to control an interface in 3 dimensions. So just hold on, you'll get your wish eventually, but a mouse won't be the way to do it.

I truly appreciate your understanding. You turned out alright. When I first saw your :screwy: icon like that , I kinda found it insulting at first. But your Ok :) .
I NEEEEEEEEEEEEDDDDDDD to wrapp my hands around my characters. Its purely by abscence of 3d gloves in LW that the two pointer mouse idea came to me. I know its not the way, but I presumed a two mouse pointer would be an easier step at using my both hands on my character.

Anyhow, thanks for the insight... Quite an empathetic skill you have there buddy :) .

When do you suppose we will finally have our hands on our characters?

Martin Adams
07-04-2006, 06:34 AM
When do you suppose we will finally have our hands on our characters?

What you want is one of these:
http://gprime.net/video.php/multitouch (video link)

But be prepared to wait for a) it to hit the market, and b) the operating systems to work with it, and c) a plugin to be written for LW

DiedonD
07-04-2006, 06:59 AM
What you want is one of these:
http://gprime.net/video.php/multitouch (video link)

But be prepared to wait for a) it to hit the market, and b) the operating systems to work with it, and c) a plugin to be written for LW


HOLLY CRAPP!!! :cry: ....Quite a technology... To be honest.... though its very impressive. And I mean very impresive indeed. Its not quite what I was looking for. Gloves would still work better actually.... But between gloves and two mouse pointers, I would surely go for this one.

Im contacting them rightaway for details.

Thanks for the link Martin

mattclary
07-05-2006, 05:49 AM
Well what about animating both feet at the same time, making a model walk faster?

Or hold down to the toes while you lift the foot in IKBooster, so as it wont move much?

Or Hold down to the bely and have his hands move alone.

Use your imagination. Both hands on the model, would most undoubtedly work better than one, with the option of using keyboard shortcuts as well.

Im not saying throw the keyboard shortcuts to the garbage, you'll still get back to them.

I dont know, contrary what others might feel or think, I believe this would help more with added control of your model.

I think that "Why" it is needed was all clear from the beginning. But since some couldnt see it (:screwy: :stumped: ) and called the idea dumb before having to think about it more, then here....I made it all easier for you.

I did think about it quite a bit, and I just don't see it. The only way I think this could work is if the user is ambidextrous. I just think a second mouse would not be as controllable in an off hand. Hitting keys on a keyboard does not require the same level of control as using a mouse.

As an experiment, try using your mouse lefthanded for a while.

My wife is left handed, so if I hop on her computer to do something for a minute, I usually leave the mouse on the left side. It's a PITA.

DiedonD
07-05-2006, 06:16 AM
I did think about it quite a bit, and I just don't see it. The only way I think this could work is if the user is ambidextrous. I just think a second mouse would not be as controllable in an off hand. Hitting keys on a keyboard does not require the same level of control as using a mouse.

As an experiment, try using your mouse lefthanded for a while.

My wife is left handed, so if I hop on her computer to do something for a minute, I usually leave the mouse on the left side. It's a PITA.

Did you checked Martin's link. He drawed, positoined, made FX using both hands. You supose he is ambidextrous too? Do you suppose they would invest so much on a tachnology, only for a small segment of ambidextrous people on the market?

And I tried using the mouse on my left hand. For what I intended to do in LW, and in abscence of the real deal, its suits me fine.

Now what is a PITA? Cause its a pie in my language.

mattclary
07-05-2006, 06:28 AM
PITA = Pain in the a**

What he did with his left hand required no real dexterity. I use my left hand for all kinds of things every day, but nothing that requires a lot of dexterity. IMO, using a mouse requires a bit of dexterity. I suppose if I trained myself to mouse left handed, I would get better, but just not worth the effort IMO.