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View Full Version : Need information about Worley Labs' Sasquatch



webshot
06-26-2006, 10:50 AM
I dont know if this has been hashed out already, but. I find it odd that Worley Labs doesnt offer trials, white papers or the manual for consumption to aid in the consideration for purchase. I know, I know the product/company/developer is widely respected here and in the 3d community and I'll probably get flamed for even voicing my opinion. But when I called Worley Labs to ask about the aforementioned things I was told to come here. So here is my gripe: I am not a top 3d artist and I dont work for a top 3d studio. I run a creative services department. And we are looking to 3d to cut back on photo shoot costs. Well our first project has to do with outside environments and Sasquatch was quickly thrown on the table as a solution. And I go to the Worley site, which does have some info but really doesnt speak to the functionality and learning curve of the program. So I asked if a trial was available. Answer: No. Are there any white papers on the plugin? Answer: No. Is there a download available of the manual? Answer: No.

So what I am asking is if anyone could share their experience with Sasquatch coming from a Newbie perspective. Post any results (renders). Also if someone has the .pdf manual they could share with me, that would be awesome. I promise to not use it for evil. In my currrent position it is very important, that I not only make sure the solution is viable. But I need to make sure that my developers can get on track with it in a reasonable time-frame. As with everything time is money.

I can provide a upload area if it (the manual) is large. Sorry if this post offends anyone. It is not my intention.

T-Light
06-26-2006, 11:02 AM
Doubt many could be offended by your post webshot :)

Haven't used saquatch myself, but saslite is relatively straightforward to get to grips with, As far as I'm aware, Saquatch has more options and takes away the render restrictions.

Have a look at Timothy Albees site, especially Kaze Ghost Warrior. Loads of sasquatch involved here.
http://www.ta-animation.com/

Best of luck

webshot
06-26-2006, 11:08 AM
Thanks T-Light....what I need to avoid/realize, is the need for additional training, resources and all that jazz. I understand it can produce pro results but usually what comes with that is the need for the user to be a pro. Which we are not. I am weighing buying the LW9 upgrade with Vue. Or staying with 8.5 and buying Sasquatch.

And "unapproachable" was a rather harsh word to use. I guess you can say more like "ho-hum" toward my questions. Left the convo feeling like they really dont give a crap about my business...

T-Light
06-26-2006, 11:22 AM
Ooh decisions, decisions. I see your point, nodal hair or sasquatch?.

I would say play with saslite and saslite tutorials (find as many free tutorials using guide chains as poss). Sas/Sasquatch can be amazing with this sort of stuff especially once you add dynamics.

Couple of things to bare in mind. Sas and sasquatch are based on the older versions of LW. they can't
1) Use radiosity
2) reflect in objects

The nodal hair systems the guys have been playing with obviously can use radiosity and can reflect, but for how good this system is you'll need to ask them.

Have a look here, and ask these guys some questions (Diplaced Totoro)
http://www.newtek.com/forums/showthread.php?t=52089

Make sure to read all the way through as they get more advanced as they experiment. :) (long hair, dynamics etc)

Between the two, I think sas would be the easier of the two to get straight to grips with.

There's a fair bit of free and paid for vid tutorials on Sasquatch, there's nothing available yet for 'nodal' hair other than those by the inimitable Proton & friends :)

Again, best of Luck.

Nigel Baker
06-26-2006, 11:24 AM
Hello Webshot,

You probably won't get much feedback on this issue.
Yes Worley has not offered demos to test.
But there is one thing that makes most people happy about dealing with Worley.
They never boast or claim anything, when their products are read they deliver.
No beta testing no bugs just honest to goodness what they say is what you get.

I too would prefer to have a demo for my own evaluation, so I am with you there. As for Sas, I only have Sas Lite and it is good, although render intensive .

There was a very good evaluation article in Keyframe issue 31, on Battle for Fur and Hair, between Sas and Shave.
Worleys product won hands down it seems.

Apart from all of that if there is anything specially you would like answered, post the question and I am sure someone will try to help out.

Also if it's a fur thing you are looking for, look more into the LW9 features and the animations up on the LW9 demo video page.

Regards,

lardbros
06-26-2006, 11:25 AM
Hi webshot... I have used Sasquatch for a film i did at university (to create grass billowing in wind). You certainly don't need to be a pro to use it, but understanding the basics of 3d processes certainly helps. Mostly it's just trial and error in producing really nice results! (Although, when it comes to the pro's it's clearly more skill than anything else.)

Only problem with Sasquatch is that it is the only hair/fur solution for LW, which is more than disappointing! Ah well, it is a good one.

Have a browse through the Worley website and their tutorials for Sasquatch. They have some very in depth ones that will give you an understanding of how things work and the processes involved.

webshot
06-26-2006, 11:30 AM
Thanks guys, what would really help me is to see the manual. I dont know why, but I am weird like that I just like to really know what I am getting into. A trial would be best, but I can understand why they dont offer that (pirates). I have played a little with Saslite, but from what I understand is that it is a very small piece of Sasquatch. I may end up buying the Kurv DVD just so I can see it in action and understand the major diffs between the free and aid version. But if anyone wants to share their manual I would greatly appreciate it. And thanks for the insight guys.

mattbolton
06-26-2006, 04:37 PM
I'm not sure they have a "manual" per se. If there was, it makes sense that it would be inside the zip file they have on their website for installing the full version. All that is in that zip is a .p file (a compiled Plugin). So I'm guessing you are out of luck on a manual showing up.

-Edit.
They have a manual.. but I'm guessing it's not in electronic format. Perhaps they mail one out on purchase....

webshot
06-26-2006, 04:40 PM
I was told there was a manual for it. So there isnt one?

lol
-edit
Okay I was told it was a electronic dload. So its not? Anyway I think I am going to go ahead and make the purchase. Been researching all day on it. I still feel like I was railroaded into it because the lack of info given by the company. I guess when you are the only person making a plugin you can treat your new clients/customers like the red-headed step child and it be accepted.

webshot
06-26-2006, 04:59 PM
Sorry to detour things, but is Sasquatch on the way out with v9? I have been reviewing some of the test threads and it seems if LW will do this stuff natively or am I misunderstanding? Sorry to jack my own thread.

T-Light
06-26-2006, 05:14 PM
Eee, you say things, nobody listens, nobody cares yahdeyahyah :D

Follow this link by Proton, it should give you an idea of 9's nodal power in fur and hair creation. But as I say, (haven't tried this yet), but I can see it being more involved than Saquatch with the added benefits of hair reflection and radiosity etc.
(Diplaced Totoro)
http://www.newtek.com/forums/showthread.php?t=52089

Also check out this vid
ftp://ftp.newtek.com/pub/LightWave/LW9/FurDisplacement.mov

jameswillmott
06-26-2006, 05:14 PM
LW9 can do fake fur quite nicely, but that's about it's limit. Sasquatch handles everything from fur to long hair with dynamics...

Wade
06-26-2006, 05:21 PM
LW9 can do fake fur quite nicely, but that's about it's limit. Sasquatch handles everything from fur to long hair with dynamics...


:D it is all fake really. :rolleyes:

webshot
06-26-2006, 05:27 PM
well if it does grass and stuff, I am going to go the vue and LW9 route. Because that is what we need. Plus I already dont really like the "Worley Way" of doing business. I am sorry to gripe here, but this where they told me to take it.

Meaty
06-26-2006, 08:10 PM
webshot - check this link for APS Grass - a native ability of LW9 ...

http://www.newtek.com/forums/showthread.php?t=52705

You might consider Sas Lite, the free version that comes standard with Lightwave. I am no expert with it, but I have seen some amazing things done with it.

Also, if I might offer a thought on Worely. Traditional businesses with physical store fronts were/are much better for customer service. You have a store and a customer base relative to the surrounding population and your nearest competitors.

In our Internet business age, a store on the web can offer software products to a massive number of people. The result is demand for customer service comes in huge waves: very high peaks and very low troughs. Worley could probably justify 100 customer service reps when he releases a new version or product, but it simply isn't practicable. To help make up for it, he and others like him try to provide as much information on their site to inform and "puff their wares."

It is just the way things are now, and Worely does provide a lot of info on his site about Sasquatch. http://www.worley.com/sasquatch/sasquatch.html

RedBull
06-26-2006, 08:31 PM
I'm not sure they have a "manual" per se. If there was, it makes sense that it would be inside the zip file they have on their website for installing the full version. All that is in that zip is a .p file (a compiled Plugin). So I'm guessing you are out of luck on a manual showing up.

-Edit.
They have a manual.. but I'm guessing it's not in electronic format. Perhaps they mail one out on purchase....

Yes the manual for sasquatch is not a PDF, but a handbound manual.
It's fairly comprehensive, and is a real help for production.
Worley Labs have a mailing list and their support is exceptional.

I once had a problem with Sasquatch 1.0b I found a bug (yay free T-Shirts)
it was a serious one, Steve personally emailed me with a newer Beta version with the problem removed in less then 24 hours.

Only Eyeon with Digital Fusion, have offered as good a customer service
as Worley Labs, these two companies are the benchmark for all others.

As for Sasquatch, it's fun it's intuitive and it can be sometimes tedious
to get those last tricky bits to do exactly what you want.
But for Hair in LW, there is not other currently available solution.
Older version of S&H still do work, but only just.

I love Sasquatch, but personally if Sasquatch II is not announced by Q4,
i will look at upgrading to XSI Advanced (from essentials) or C4D Hair.
And with BHairy plugin available for XSI, you can buy XSI FND, and BHairy
plugin for the same price as Sasquatch itself. (which is alarming)

I tend to think Sas has reached it's used by date in some areas.
C4D's Hair is far more impressive, but Sas hair/fur still looks good.
Looking at other programs, even Blender has superior hair to Saslite.

I think LW needs particle hair, and then use LW dynamics and SasLites engine to render them.

Worley''s non-demo and high prices, likely affect NT business more than Worley own business. Most likely why this is being discussed here..

newtekker04
06-26-2006, 09:52 PM
Not a solution but rather some alternatives if you wish to investigate them:

http://www.fxrealm.com/products/furistic/lwdesc.htm
http://www.binaryartsinc.com/FiberFactoryIV.htm

jasonwestmas
06-26-2006, 10:16 PM
I honestly don't see how you could possibly make long animateable hair with nodal displacements using a 32 bit machine/os. Sasquatch is still going to be around for that. (Not aimed at your post newtekker04)

webshot
06-26-2006, 10:27 PM
Thanks guys, like I said this was nto an attempt to bash Worley. But more like a plea, I am sure I am not the first person to be turned off by the way the handle prospective customers. And I was unaware that the manual is only printed. I actually asked that as well, why they didnt answer me I wont know. But anyway, I think I am going to watch the v9 stuff for a sec and hold off buying Sasquatch for now. Thanks for the insight. Funny they sent me here, for re-assurance and I basically came away with the feeling I should wait to buy it. Not a good business model IMO.:stumped:

jasonwestmas
06-26-2006, 10:32 PM
I got detailed responses when I emailed them, of course that was after I fed them my $500. LOL, hehe

lede
06-27-2006, 09:42 AM
Well I just recently purchased Sasquatch this year for a model I did and thank goodness I did. Saslite is very slow at rendering compared to the full version. It was a "leap of faith" on my part for getting it but in the end I got better results for the hair than I could of done with LW.

Granted LW9 is making major steps with nodal textureing so it will be interesting to see what they come up with in the next few months-years. Worly has been around for a veru long time with LightWave and every once in a while he release a new plugin that just blows our minds away,

Support wise well you can't get better then them. I baught their F-Prime plugin the day it came out and he has released many new version for free for us which is great. It was a fast render already and it keeps getting faster with each release. Would I put my money down on a worly plugin again? H-ell yeah I would its worthy every dime of it for the time he save me working.

Sorry you got put off from his shop, its a crying shame he doesn't have better customer support. But for me I was fortunate to always know about him and have watched his company from the beggining days of LightWave. Many people have talked about his plugin in these forums so do a search here and I'm sure you'll pull up some good threads. If there was a way for me to let you play with it on my computer I would because you would walk away stunned at its power.

-Lee

aurora
06-27-2006, 10:01 AM
I have to side with Lee on this.
As for demo's of Sas yeah it exists called Saslite. But true theres no demos for FPrime, G2 or the others, tis sad but other then that Worley has been great.
As for learning material you might want to serioulsy consider hopping over to KURV Studios and look at Nicolas Boughen's Saslite and Sas training DVD's. Nic takes you through every control in Sas explaining it wonderfully with great examples followed but great work through projects including great lighting tricks too. Well worth the money if you plan on doing heavy Sas work!

Chuck
06-27-2006, 10:50 AM
The nodal hair systems the guys have been playing with...

There's really no such thing as a "nodal hair system." The node editor and displacement capabilities in v9 have a wide range of interesting capabilities, and several techniques for faking fur that may work very well for some situations is just one example of the range. It really isn't a "hair and fur system" though, and we're very much aware, as is Worley Labs, that that's what folks will need for a much wider array of hair and fur applications than the displacement approach can cover.

webshot
06-27-2006, 11:34 AM
Thanks all. And thanks for changing the title. I was wrong to put it that way. So the drawbacks to sasquatch currently is no radiosity and no reflections? Anything else?

It also seems that everyone gets stellar support once the $$$ is paid. Which is a reassurance but doesnt really help me as I have yet to make the leap of faith.

T-Light
06-27-2006, 11:47 AM
Chuck-

There's really no such thing as a "nodal hair system.".
Apologies, didn't make that very clear did I, though the link I mentioned (twice) to Protons thread would surely have filled in the gaps.

lede
06-27-2006, 12:39 PM
... and we're very much aware, as is Worley Labs, that that's what folks will need for a much wider array of hair and fur applications than the displacement approach can cover.

Thanks Chuck for this update! LW hair needs to be addressed and if you guys are aware of that then I know good things will come soon.

Webshot, I know how you feel because sas is a BIG purchase in my book. I'm just a hobbies at best so no big bank roll funding my stuff so every penny I spend on LW has to be really thought out before a purchase is ever made.

Now then if Sas is a little to expensive you might find doing poly type tricks to meet your needs. Here is a tutorial on how to do convicing poly hair:

http://www.newtek.com/products/lightwave/tutorials/modeling/hair/index.html

If I get some time though I'll try and get a couple of quick example up for you to look at. Maybe even a quick video tutorial on how to use it. Can't make any promises but I'll see what I can do.

-Lee