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View Full Version : Symbols; Your thoughts please.



Paul Brunson
06-19-2006, 08:40 AM
I'm working on a short film involving symbols and how they are percieved. I'd like to get people's first impressions of the symbol below (see image).

What is your intial reaction when you see this symbol?
What emotions or thoughts come to your mind?

http://www.empyreus.net/Images/Downloads/flag.jpg

Also please give us a brief description of yourself. Where your from, what you do for work etc. General information that might be pertinent to help us understand where your coming from. (Obviously this a public forum, so don't give out information your not ok with the world seeing)

PLEASE, I plead with everyone, lets not turn this into a debate. I'm not interested in starting a patriotic or anti-patriotic flame war. This is research for a short film. I'm approaching this community because I know we are a rather diverse global group of people. I'm interested in any and all opinions be it that they are decent honest opinions free of obviously objectionable comments. IE - Crude language etc. (Please focus on your own thought and opinions and avoid commenting on others.)


(I'm hoping this an OK topic for the LW-Community. I belong to a small film group, we get together and make films. We use mostly Newtek products for everything we do. (You can visit us at www.empyreus.net (http://www.empyreus.net), some may have seen our short Star Wars flick, Duke (http://empyreus.net/downloads.php). It was on the forums a while back.)

mattclary
06-19-2006, 10:34 AM
I'm not interested in starting a patriotic or anti-patriotic flame war.

I don't see how you could expect anything other than that.

hrgiger
06-19-2006, 10:44 AM
What do I think when I see that symbol? I want to set it on fire. Not because I hate America and not to be controversial. Just because I'm sick and tired of hearing about how I have all these rights as an American, but then come to find out I really don't have quite as many as I thought I did. Such as my first amendment right to free speech, unless of course that speech offends just the right politician or special interest group. I'm tired of being told that I'm supposed to feel a certain way, a certain emotion, or get all choked up at the sight of this symbol. I don't believe in idolatry and I just can't get behind the worship of a symbol of America, that let's face it, was probably handsewn in Taiwan for about 25 cents an hour.

mattclary
06-19-2006, 11:02 AM
What do I think when I see that symbol? I want to set it on fire. Not because I hate America and not to be controversial. Just because I'm sick and tired of hearing about how I have all these rights as an American, but then come to find out I really don't have quite as many as I thought I did. Such as my first amendment right to free speech, unless of course that speech offends just the right politician or special interest group. I'm tired of being told that I'm supposed to feel a certain way, a certain emotion, or get all choked up at the sight of this symbol. I don't believe in idolatry and I just can't get behind the worship of a symbol of America, that let's face it, was probably handsewn in Taiwan for about 25 cents an hour.

I'd have to say I pretty much agree with that. Unless you are wealthy and can hire your own lobbyist, you have no inalienable rights.

randomnumbers
06-19-2006, 11:09 AM
I feel an overwhelming urge to yawn, followed by a nagging voice in my mind asking, "what they are getting away with now?" topped off with the desire to run for the nearest bomb shelter (to escape the ensuing flame wars this thread is sure to draw, not through any real fear of imminent american invasion. honest)
sarcastic, but honest

cresshead
06-19-2006, 11:15 AM
What is your intial reaction when you see this symbol?
men landing on the moon
What emotions or thoughts come to your mind?
amazing people, who achieved something truly out of this world

name:steve g
location: u.k.
nationality: english [do not put 'british' please..i born/live in england!]
occupation: multimedia designer

*Pete*
06-19-2006, 11:44 AM
is this for americans only?

if not.

initial reaction; mixed emotions..

first: it is a beatiful flag, stands for proud people, patriotism, leadership...and of course, freedom.

second: it stands for needles wars, ignorance, lies and double standards (double moral??),


this flag is for me all the good it could/should be, and all the bad it is...


(think of the star wars melody and you understand what i mean :) ..beatiful, powerfull and evil heheh)

brtk
06-19-2006, 11:47 AM
http://fileanchor.com/36070-r.jpg
edit: Hope it's allowed to respond with another picture.

JCG
06-19-2006, 11:52 AM
To me the first thing that comes to mind is "English". When I see that symbol it usually means that I can click on it to get the English version of the page.
Maybe I spend too much time online?

Bog
06-19-2006, 11:53 AM
Initial thought:

"What lovely shades of red and blue"

Emotional reaction:

The same poignant heart-rending as finding out that your beloved has been having an affair and snorting coke while you've been leading a decent, honourable life. I still love her, but Gh0d she's hurting me so...

*Pete*
06-19-2006, 12:17 PM
brtk: Hulk Hogan IS america in a person :D


i wonder how many LW-junkies get the "nice cloth-dymanics" as first reaction...considering how often it is mentioned here on the forums....or perhaps "can i see the wireframe, please..."

krimpr
06-19-2006, 12:18 PM
What is your intial reaction when you see this symbol?
men landing on the moon
What emotions or thoughts come to your mind?
amazing people, who achieved something truly out of this world

name:steve g
location: u.k.
nationality: english [do not put 'british' please..i born/live in england!]
occupation: multimedia designer

I very much used to have this feeling when I saw that flag also. I still feel that way about the people in general, ... but I'll stop there.

Signal to Noise
06-19-2006, 12:27 PM
My thought is "Poor Betsy Ross. Stuck indoors sewing all the time. If only she had known Photoshop was just around the corner!".

Bog
06-19-2006, 12:40 PM
Can I have a second emotional reaction of remembering a white dart-shape rising out of the Mojave on a column of fire and glory? 'Cause that's every bit as valid as my emotional reaction that was tainted by news headlines, but a lot, lot, lot happier...

Wonderpup
06-19-2006, 03:09 PM
10 years ago- Essentialy benevolent power, weilded by an essentialy decent people- today, something darker has crept into the frame- not sure what, not sure why.

mattclary
06-19-2006, 06:46 PM
not sure what, not sure why.

$$$

kilvano
06-19-2006, 07:08 PM
Pride. Im not American but they are a proud nation and most wont hear a bad word against them....

....like us Scots!

UP YER KILT!

Titus
06-19-2006, 07:22 PM
Two words: John Wayne.

nomad108
06-19-2006, 08:29 PM
First reaction: Patriotism. Probably due to the 16 1/2 years I spent in the U.S. military.

Second thoughts were the taint of big business directing the course of the nation and how I wish we would return to Isolationism and keep our noses out of everyone elses business. Guess I was born a century too late.

(Thanks, Kilvano.)

Speedmonk42
06-19-2006, 08:47 PM
10 years ago- Essentialy benevolent power, weilded by an essentialy decent people- today, something darker has crept into the frame- not sure what, not sure why.

Well I hope the question is contrasted by people in other places.... say Laos... ect...


If you think things were benevolent 10 years ago.... well that may be part of the problem. This is exposure of what has always beent there, not something entirely new.

cobaltman
06-19-2006, 08:48 PM
Q: What is your intial reaction when you see this symbol?

A: I salute it (I have reasons and I was in JROTC in high school, anyway).:)



Q: What emotions or thoughts come to your mind?

A: A Nation that is scarred by corruption, mistrust and troubles, yet it stills holds strong despite the wounds. Gotta love it.:thumbsup:

eidetiken
06-19-2006, 09:18 PM
I see an Oligarchy of a few wealthy and powerful families. I see the Patriot Act I and II which stripped us all of our Constitutionally given rights. (Did you know that under the Patriot Act all crimes are considered acts of terrorism, even a speeding ticket? Look it up.) I see a county that went from championing Human and Civil Rights, to condoning and carrying out torture and imprisonment without the right to trail, wiretaps and spying on all US citizens with a Supreme Court that has ruled to approve No Knock Warrants, not to mention a ruling that private corporate interest can condem and take your land without any form of compensation. I see a government now run by committee whoís decisions are influenced by Corporate Lobbyist, for Corporate Gain. I see you having to now register and RFID tag your pets, even the parakeet in its cage. http://nonais.org/

I see two perpetual wars without end. The Drug War (brought to you by George H.W. Bush) and The War On TERROR!(Brought to you by his son George W. Bush. (Note: Under the Patriot Act a speeding ticket is an act of Terrorism). I see No Bid Contracts, interestingly enough almost all of them go to Halliburton, and Dick Cheney?

I see a policy of War to control oil in far off lands and the repression of new energy efficient technologies, no matter what the White House says. I see a country with more people in prison than any other country in the world, including China. I see a country addicted to harmful prescription drugs, brought to you by the same people that told you Marijuana is evil! (Note: Betsy Ross made that first flag from Hemp, George Washington grew hemp, hemp was a cash crop in the United States up until World War II and legal in the United States until Dupont lobbied to have it outlawed? Seems corporate interest is nothing new in the United States.

I donít really see that flag standing for anything now, not really. Maybe as a relic of bygone days in history. Because without us even being able to vote for it, our fearless leaders have signed on to the American Union and by 2010 we are supposed to have one currency, the Amero http://oldfraser.lexi.net/publications/critical_issues/1999/amero/
And an inefficient supper highyway that is surely to see more people having their land confiscated by the federal government without compensation. http://spp.gov/

I see Lightwavers making propaganda films for the Oligarchy, intended to make the plebs toe the line, buy more worthless goods, work longer hours for less money, in service jobs they donít like, while taking prescription drugs because the pharmaceutical companies spent million on a drug that cures nothing, so the Pharmaceutical company invents a new psychological illness, probably tell you its wrong to be happy now and this drug can cure it because, ďAre you smiling? There is something wrong with you boy. Take thisĒ. (At $100 a pop). And the Lightwavers will make fancy films waving that flag for the poor uneducated populace to believe in something that no longer exist.

But hey, Iím a Lightwaver now. Should I take the Blue pill or the Red pill? Now I see a flag with 50 pills, and 13 psychedelic stripes.

The individual is handicaped by coming face to face with a conspiracy so monstrous he cannot believe it exist... J. Edgar Hoover

prospector
06-19-2006, 09:21 PM
Means to me;

A country that has only been around for 230 years and has surpassed the rest of the world in greatness in military, industry, world changing inovations.

It means 100s of thousands gave thier lives for the greatness this flag represents.

It means when you see this flag in another country, you can be assured that there is the worlds most generous people delivering aid to someone in trouble, or the worlds strongest people freeing millions from tyranny.
(ie: Europe...twice, Eastern Europe, about everyone in the Pacific, 50 million so far in Middle East), without asking for anything or any land in return.

It means freedom, backed by the most important document ever written in the history of man.The U.S. Constitution.
And that's good

The downside :cry:

It means the freedom to kill millions every year thru abortions.

It means the freedom to take peoples land to save cockroachs and other insects,rats,animals,birds.

It means the freedom to put thousands of workers on welfare to save a renewable resourse of trees.

It means the freedom to put forth ideas that Stalin would love (socialism), Hitler carried out (remove everyones guns), Moussilini would cry happy tears over (tax everything),and Mao would kill for(all land owned by government), oh wait..he did.

It means the freedom to restrict everyones rights (no hunting areas, no fishing areas, no smoking areas, no mining areas, no offroad areas for motercycles, 4wheel drive vehicles) thru feelgood science instead of real science.

And that's sad

lilrayray77
06-19-2006, 09:34 PM
Prospector, Im guessing you are not the most liberal of us Americans? :)

Silkrooster
06-19-2006, 10:01 PM
I guess the one word I have to describe our national flag is "PROUD". Our flag is a representation of our country. I am extremely proud to live in a country who is willing to do what ever it takes to protect those who can not protect them selves, including those who can not understand that they are being harmed.
Silk

hrgiger
06-19-2006, 10:01 PM
It means the freedom to kill millions every year thru abortions.

Try and be positive. It is also the right for a woman to choose what happens with her body.


It means the freedom to take peoples land to save cockroachs and other insects,rats,animals,birds.

I guess life is precious for some people only when it's human life. We're the only ones who seem to live out of equilibrium with our environment. Perhaps we need to start thinning our own herd and stop crowding out every other lifeform on this planet. God, we're so due for another plague.


It means the freedom to put thousands of workers on welfare to save a renewable resourse of trees.

Trees are only renewable when we cut them down at less of a rate then we can grow them back. It's too bad we can't seem to do that. Protections have to be put in place to keep logging in check. Me personally, I dig oxygen.


As for the rest, well, plenty of people have guns, plenty of people get out of paying much taxes at all, and plenty smoke, hunt, and fish all they want. Those people are doing just fine in America.

loki74
06-19-2006, 10:06 PM
It is the flag that American patriots die under, so that American fools may have the freedom burn and scorn it.

stone
06-20-2006, 01:31 AM
first i thought i wouldnt bother, but with the ignorance displayed in this thread i change my mind.

- i see blind nationalism
- ignorant patriosim
- a nation that supresses it own population as well as other countries.
- a nation thats too young to even take responsibility for them self, let alone the world.
- corruption
- the elite
- an entire nation thats unable to think for themselves and only belives in the television.
- a nation in fear
- a great country that could have been, but i have just about given up. i hold more hope in china being the leading supernation... and i sure as **** dont trust china.
- i see a nation that fights freedom at every chance.
- a nation that looks down on individualism and attacks everything thats different.
- an overweight nation, unable to even eat properly.
- unability to realise its own flaws.
- hardly even a democracy. badly flawed political system.
- corruption.
- extremists, religious and ignorants.

all of which seems to be american dreams.

im daniel b, denmark. my girlfriend is a mohawk, and you my american friends, needs to take a good look at yourself, think for yourselves and clear up your act to gain any respect.

Rayek
06-20-2006, 01:58 AM
One word:

Koyaanisqatsi.

This holds true for most people in this world. Very, very confused about things.

Wonderpup
06-20-2006, 04:29 AM
If you think things were benevolent 10 years ago.... well that may be part of the problem. This is exposure of what has always beent there, not something entirely new.

This is true, of course. You don't get to be a superpower without hurting people. But the question was about an emotional response rather than reality, and my response to that particular image is not the same as it once was- and its that shift in perception that strikes me when I see the image, so thats what I reported.

zapper1998
06-20-2006, 04:41 AM
I'd have to say I pretty much agree with that. Unless you are wealthy and can hire your own lobbyist, you have no inalienable rights.


What do I think when I see that symbol? I want to set it on fire. Not because I hate America and not to be controversial. Just because I'm sick and tired of hearing about how I have all these rights as an American, but then come to find out I really don't have quite as many as I thought I did. Such as my first amendment right to free speech, unless of course that speech offends just the right politician or special interest group. I'm tired of being told that I'm supposed to feel a certain way, a certain emotion, or get all choked up at the sight of this symbol. I don't believe in idolatry and I just can't get behind the worship of a symbol of America, that let's face it, was probably handsewn in Taiwan for about 25 cents an hour.

I agree :agree:
Face it American Corporations don't want to pay retirement or medical.
They want the CEO's to get millions from the hardworking people.
It S**** big doo doo
Michael

Exception
06-20-2006, 04:51 AM
First reaction:

Jeez, another one? Don't they know what it looks like yet?! What;s with the 1000 every city block?

Extended reaction:
Much like most above. A flag of hypocrisy, slapping the world one way or another, for reasons that will mostly stay hidden. A nation that blows up its own pride (Sept 11, WTC was blown up, planes had nothing to do with it (yes I am an engineer, yes I have two master degrees, yes just think about it and do some research, the horrid truth is right there, in your face), kils its own people, deceives them and then uses them as motiviation to attack even more. An oil smeared flag dipped in gold, linedwith blood of the innocent. A nation with great people, whose sons and daughters will once say exactly what the sons and daughters of the germans said after 1950: How could they have ever let this happen?

mattclary
06-20-2006, 05:16 AM
It means the freedom to kill millions every year thru abortions.




Sorry for all you americans who have to live side by side with people who think like this.

Whew! Thanks for the sympathy man! I'm really embarassed to have to live in a country with people who have such repulsive thoughts as that Prospector guy! Killing babies is every woman's right! Freakin' rednecks!

mattclary
06-20-2006, 05:33 AM
(Sept 11, WTC was blown up, planes had nothing to do with it (yes I am an engineer,

You may be an engineer, but you obviously have little grasp of human nature. What you claim would have to be implemented by several teams of people with military training (to account for the pentagon and both towers). Those teams would have had to set explosives in all 3 buildings, then actually trigger the device. Now, having been former military, I find it insulting that anyone, especially another American, would claim that U.S. military personnel could do such a thing.

I'm not saying "the military", I'm saying "military personnel". Your brother, your son, your uncle, your father. THAT is who makes up the military.

Did you hear the story about the 3 soldiers who have been charged with murder in Iraq? Because there was at least one good person amongst them, the story has been told. And THAT is in a war zone, where the people who were murdered try to blow you up on a daily basis. Make those people American men and WOMEN, and the percentage of human beings who could have pulled the trigger drops drastically, and the percentage who would have made the right moral decision or felt overwhelming remorse, would have gone through the roof. Rather you want to admit it or not, most humans are basically good. We love kittens and babies and the idea of actually killing another human being is kind of repulsive. Unless it's still in the womb, that's ok and kind of cool.

My point is that even if you did find a group of socially retarded individuals who could actually follow orders to kill thousands of American citizens, odds are, at least one of them would talk, probably from guilt.

Also, in your theory, were there any planes involved, or were there some CG people involved in the conspiracy to? I bet it was that freakin' redneck b*stard, Prospector! I could see him wanting to kill a bunch of people, what with all that crazy anti-abortion talk.

I have PMed you with a little more info, please make sure to read it.

mattclary
06-20-2006, 05:59 AM
You obviously live in the middle age, with all your christian fundamentalist friends. I see that an unwanted pregnancy is much better, so the child can grow up being abused and ****ed up by parents who'd rather be without a baby, now that's great life quality! Fetuses are not babies - and that's coming from me who's the proud father of a beautiful 1 month old baby. I swear that much human misery could be avoided in the US if many of you weren't so god **** hung up on your lovely middle aged christian beliefs. News for you people, religion is organized mind control and you're living a big, fat lie.

I'm not Christian, I'm human. I haven't been inside of a church (other than the occasional wedding) in 20 years. I have a 2 year old daughter. I was less adamant about my thoughts until I had her. Maybe you just don't love your child as much as you should.

There are plenty of people who want to adopt. There are waiting lists.

I do admire your strength though, it takes a strong person to admit to themselves that they simply cease to exist when they die.

prospector
06-20-2006, 06:16 AM
Dang it Mattclary, it was my radio controlled planes,videotaped, and resized in VT2. And if you couldn't see that, I must have did a good job compositing :)

I don't see how you could expect anything other than that. so profound :agree:


And if women don't want to get pregnant and have abortions...they should keep thier legs shut, easy as 1,2,3

but I could care less if they don't...just don't steal my money thru taxes to do it.

lilrayray77
06-20-2006, 06:16 AM
- an overweight nation, unable to even eat properly.


Gotta love us don't you? It is so repulsing walking along the street and seeing people that are twice the size of what is called "normal". People just take everything for granted. It's not the greatest attribute of the US is it?

lilrayray77
06-20-2006, 06:20 AM
Dang it Mattclary, it was my radio controlled planes,videotaped, and resized in VT2. And if you couldn't see that, I must have did a good job compositing :)

And if women don't want to get pregnant and have abortions...they should keep thier legs shut, easy as 1,2,3

ooh, temptation of the flesh. Very hard for people in this generation to avoid. I heard a statistic that something like 30% of teens have doe "it" by the time they are in nineth grade. So yes I will agree with you on that people should be resposible, but sometimes mistakes in another department happen that are just unavoidable.

MooseDog
06-20-2006, 06:34 AM
promise and ideals unfulfilled? seems like a human condition, rather than a particular american fault.

the fact that our constitution sets such high standards of promise makes this nation's incomplete attainment of them even more visible.

but hey, out in the wheatfields of kansas, someone invented :lwicon: , so there's still some hope:dance:

Bog
06-20-2006, 06:48 AM
promise and ideals unfulfilled? seems like a human condition, rather than a particular american fault.


+1

It's interesting to see the responses. I'm really hoping this thread can stay with addressing the topic, rather than attacking people.

Wonderpup
06-20-2006, 07:17 AM
the fact that our constitution sets such high standards of promise makes this nation's incomplete attainment of them even more visible.

An excellent point. The US and the west in general it seems to me are often judged against standards that those doing the judgeing never for one moment apply to themselves or their own societys.

The oddest thing to me is that if you analyse the complaints made by those groups most vocal in their complaints against 'western culture' they begin to sound curiosly like the complaints of children addressed to an allegedly 'bad' parent.

Is the west really responsibe for all the ills of the world- or could it be that some of these probelms are more local in their origin?

Bog
06-20-2006, 07:19 AM
Is the west really responsibe for all the ills of the world- or could it be that some of these probelms are more local in their origin?

The problem with any issue of shared culpability is that it's so much easier and more comfortable to point out someone else's blame than it is to admit one's own.

Human nature, really.

starbase1
06-20-2006, 07:37 AM
Trying to give my responses in a way that can be taken generally... (I'm British)

All over the world, countries flags are adopted by thier nationalists, and their extremists. And this applies every bit as much to the British National Front, Neo Nazis, as well as neocons. (Though obviously not to the stars and stripes).

Inside America I am sure that it will generate strong patriotism. Outside it now has a strong association with George Bush, and that is not a good thing even amongst alies. (And I am amongst those who think it's good that the UK is the USA's strongest alie).

Think back to the origins of that flag, in a proud young and vigourous nation.
What were things like then?

Well, in those days America was being governed by an incompetent clinical moron called George, who only got the job because his father used to have it.

What went wrong?

Nick

gjjackson
06-20-2006, 07:43 AM
I'd say Proud. I'd agree with everything Prospector says in his first post. We DO have more freedom than most any other country, whether anyone wants to believe it or not. And this is because of our Military. Freedom through strength as Reagan said. Some on the left are so off the wall I'm surprised their brains don't explode. All the people who complain about this country certainly aren't moving to another country. They stay here. (Unless their military deserters in Canada). They'll get their day. Being ex-Military during the Vietnam era I had a great sense of pride when I went to Washington during leave once. I recall standing in front of the White House and it was the Proudest day of my life.

eidetiken
06-20-2006, 07:43 AM
Thought I would add something to this flag symbol so you can do a little more research. Peoples reactions to it here might not be what you expected. You are surrounded by government symbols including different versions of the American flag. Having served in the US Navy for 8 years myself, and anyone who has been in the military, should know from the UCMJ (Universal Code of Military Justice) that an American flag with gold fringe around it is an Admiralty flag. It implies jurisdiction. A true United States of America flag has no fringe what so ever.

Here's an illustration for you. Having been in the Navy and forced to study the UCMJ I once refused to walk into a Civil Court to contest a traffic ticket, because there was a Gold Fringed American Admiralty Flag behind the judge. It's a little slight of hand that every day people tend to blow off as a rediculous notion, but I assure you the Government doesn't. Every court room is filled with symbols of law indicating jurisdiction over you. The Judges robes has meaning. That little fence in the front of the court is actually the "Bar" which lawyers take a Bar Exam in order to cross. And once you as a plantiff or defendant cross that bar, if there is, and more than likely there will be, a gold fringed flag in the court room, you just gave up all your constitutional rights to an Admiralty court of law. If you ever wondered how Judges get away with some of stuff they do, there is your answer, in an Admiralty court of law, the judge is God! And those flags don't belong in any Civilian Government Building or courtroom in the United States outside of military or maritime court.

Take a tour through your town or cities Government offices and take note of all the different symbols, then go look them up and find out exactly what they mean. Flags have long been symbols of war. They have always been raised on foreign soil by the victor of a war. Flags represent jurisdiction and their are different flags that represent different jurisdictions.

starbase1
06-20-2006, 07:49 AM
Means to me;

you can be assured that there is the worlds most generous people delivering aid to someone in trouble


Incorrect. Check the numbers - Eupropeans give MUCH more in aid per head. And in many cases, particularly the Tsunami not so long ago, the promised US aid was never delivered. Bush has a habit of writing cheques to the poor he never delivers on the world over.

The US does not know this.
The rest of the world does.



It means the freedom to kill millions every year thru abortions.


Ho hum. A foetus is not a baby, still less a person.

Though I would have thought that the 'every sperm is sacred' bunch would not have the brains to use something as complex as Lightwave...

mattclary
06-20-2006, 08:15 AM
Thought I would add something to this flag symbol so you can do a little more research. Peoples reactions to it here might not be what you expected. You are surrounded by government symbols including different versions of the American flag. Having served in the US Navy for 8 years myself, and anyone who has been in the military, should know from the UCMJ (Universal Code of Military Justice) that an American flag with gold fringe around it is an Admiralty flag. It implies jurisdiction. A true United States of America flag has no fringe what so ever.

Here's an illustration for you. Having been in the Navy and forced to study the UCMJ I once refused to walk into a Civil Court to contest a traffic ticket, because there was a Gold Fringed American Admiralty Flag behind the judge. It's a little slight of hand that every day people tend to blow off as a rediculous notion, but I assure you the Government doesn't. Every court room is filled with symbols of law indicating jurisdiction over you. The Judges robes has meaning. That little fence in the front of the court is actually the "Bar" which lawyers take a Bar Exam in order to cross. And once you as a plantiff or defendant cross that bar, if there is, and more than likely there will be, a gold fringed flag in the court room, you just gave up all your constitutional rights to an Admiralty court of law. If you ever wondered how Judges get away with some of stuff they do, there is your answer, in an Admiralty court of law, the judge is God! And those flags don't belong in any Civilian Government Building or courtroom in the United States outside of military or maritime court.

Take a tour through your town or cities Government offices and take note of all the different symbols, then go look them up and find out exactly what they mean. Flags have long been symbols of war. They have always been raised on foreign soil by the victor of a war. Flags represent jurisdiction and their are different flags that represent different jurisdictions.

eidetiken, while I appreciate what you are saying, I chalk the gold-fringed flag's presence up to some purchaser choosing said flag for aesthetic purposes. I don't think that the court is actually assuming any kind of power by displaying that flag. There are a bazillion instances where judicial decisions have been overturned on constitutional basis, so I don't think it is correct to say that the constitution is void in a court room just because some flag has gold fringe on it. Remember, the flag is a symbol, the constitution is reality (even if it is trampled occasionaly).

Just one thing I have found with the help of Google:

http://64.233.187.104/search?q=cache:2OjxPvjmQR0J:www.landrights.com/Gold_Fringed_Flag.htm+gold+fringe+flag&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=6

eidetiken
06-20-2006, 08:30 AM
Heard that excuse a few times. And there are a 1000 cases for every judicial decisions that has not been overturned, simply because the defendent couldn't afford to pay the lawyers. You should read up on the law of the Flags. Laws also govern the presentation of the American flag in government buildings. They're arent there just because "they're pretty". And if this is your belief then the American flag really shouldn't mean anything to you.

The constitution is reality? Hmmm... That's not what George W. Bush says.

According to George W. Bush... The constitution is just a ****ing piece of paper. You'll find that quote along with all the other Bushisms.

Yeah I've read that before. I wonder why my state has Statutes for the presentation of the flag in government buildings? I have a couple of friends that are also attorney's. They're the ones that found the statutes. Us nitwits wound up being right.

mattclary
06-20-2006, 08:52 AM
I don't disagree with everyting you say. That's why, for the first time in my life, I am pretty sure I will be voting for a Democrat for president next election. I figure best case would be if it is Hillary. There would be such a sh*t-storm in Washington that nothing would get done, and that is when the American people are the safest.

eidetiken
06-20-2006, 09:00 AM
Vote for Hillary? I wouldn't go that far. I've just had this argument before with lawyer friends of mine. It ended when I presented them with a copy of the law of the flags. It's all about entering or not entering contracts with ships at sea, with a history of law that goes back a few hundred years before the United States of American was even a thought.

I've watched this country dwindle ever since the Korean war... things just seem to be accelarating downhill now.

starbase1
06-20-2006, 09:20 AM
I don't disagree with everyting you say. That's why, for the first time in my life, I am pretty sure I will be voting for a Democrat for president next election. I figure best case would be if it is Hillary. There would be such a sh*t-storm in Washington that nothing would get done, and that is when the American people are the safest.

Now that is my kind of politics! (And applies to every country in the world I suspect)

I reckon that politicians should all go on strike, and when we miss them, we ask them back.

Wickster
06-20-2006, 10:15 AM
Well coming from the Philippines I'll give my opinion as to how most of the people (the ones I know at least) feel when they see that flag.

Having lived near a U.S. base about 16 years ago I saw many things happen. Along with the city's prosperity came the degradation of women as prostitution became a common job. U.S. soldiers would build and repair schools for children to attend to. Yet the city is filled with half american children who have never seen their American fathers. That flag is always the first one to arrive and help whenever a disaster hits a foreign country, yet most of the time that flag is the only one standing when a disaster hits America. It's never a debate to ask Americans for help, but its a big debate to whether to help Americans or not.

Living under the flag means you get to have the same privilage as some celebrities from the Philippines. Eat the food they eat, and be able to afford the luxury they can afford. At the same time living under that flag means that the luxury thing that we can afford, clothes we wear, the powerful computers we use and the electronic devices that makes our lives easier where probably made by the same people who are in poverty because of being underpaid and taken advantage of. I t has brought great riches to some of my friends but americanized their way of living in many ways.

A double edge symbol I guess.

my 2cents anyway. :D

Have a good morning everyone....I need my cooofffeee!!!

Medi8or
06-20-2006, 10:39 AM
but hey, out in the wheatfields of kansas, someone invented :lwicon: , so there's still some hope:dance:
I think I'll just agree to that, and leave this thread. :thumbsup:

parm
06-20-2006, 11:13 AM
'Shock and Awe'

Paul Brunson
06-20-2006, 03:19 PM
Wow, thanks for all the comments everyone. I really appreciate the input. I'm glad to see so many varied opinions and points of view. I was hoping for exactly that.

Also thanks to those who have restrainted from making deragatory remarks about others opinions and points of view. I think it speaks to the quality of the Lightwave community if we can discuss a topic such as this without reducing to insulting each other.

The idea for the film that my film group and I are developing is very simple. We are going to try to communicate with video how differently people can view the same object/symbol. We've narrowed it to the American Flag because, as this discussion has shown, there is a wide range of emotions and opinions tied to the American Flag. We're going to try to portray the idea using mostly visual elements (Camera angle, color etc), while keeping dialogue to a minimum. We've felt it important to not just put our interpretation of how we feel different people view the flag, but try to portray as best we can actual points of view from real people.

Thanks again. Please continue, if you like, to share your impressions and emotions when you see the flag. We'll be watching this thread as we continue with the project. I'll post here again when we're further along, your opinions have been very helpful!

Exception
06-20-2006, 03:33 PM
You may be an engineer, but you obviously have little grasp of human nature. What
I have PMed you with a little more info, please make sure to read it.

Yes I am grateful for your swearing words. I think that will benefit us all.
Matt, I have never even mentioned the military, not anyone else. Actually buildings are not blown up by military personell at all, they are blown up by demolition contractors like Controlled Demolition, which is the company that cleared all the rubble after the attack.
Also I did not mention the pentagon, which, if you would study the facts properly, has not been hit by a plane, but by a cruise missile. If you disagree, please show me a picture of the wrecked plane, or a plane hitting it. If you inform me it was evaporated upon impact, which the official statement is, I will never believe you finished primary school.

I just informed you of a scientific fact. If you can't deal with it, that is fine with me, there are many more like you, and you have as much right to your belief as I do. However, I feel it is also your duty to educate yourself. If you would actually investigate this yourself, and I do not mean reading an article about it,but do actual study, then you will find out that it would have been possible to plant those things, and that there is actually a lot of evidence that supports it. There is even more evidence and empirical research that proves that airplanes are incapable of such damage, in such a specific way.
And if you're still doubting about it, please look up the inferview with Larry Silverstein where he plainly admits that WTC 7 (a 110 story building 100 yards away) was blown up indeed. Curious? I was. Blind? I wasn't going to be.

mattclary
06-20-2006, 03:59 PM
There are many people who debunk the "science" of your theories, I'll leave that to them.

You fail to account for the human factor. People talk and people don't like murdering thousands of people, approximately half of which were women. Who did the CG for the planes ramming the building? Are the witnesses who saw the planes hit the building payed for?

I stand by my statement I PMed you with. It's not an insult, it's a fact.

hrgiger
06-20-2006, 04:07 PM
Of course people saw plane hitting the WTC. But did anyone see the plane that hit the pentagon? Even the security camera sees what looks like a missle rather then a plane, not to mention the fact that there was no plane debris at the pentagon.

Also, I remember seeing the photographs of the plane that hit the WTC. There appeared to be something like a missle strapped below the body of plane. I don't know that it was a missle, but whatever it was, it didn't belong on a commerical airliner.

No pun intended, but I think this thread is about to crash and burn.

Exception
06-20-2006, 04:08 PM
Matt, you are inventing things, I have never in my life mentioned anything about CG being used at Sept 11. You just invented that. You also invented that you and me are in disagreement. You have quite simply probably not seen what I have seen.
It is a reality that took me a while to believe, but I am really not going to live a lie. But you have the perogative of doing so. If 'your' scientists can honestly disprove, literally, newton's law of gravity, then, I think, we should be all hovering over to mars in a couple of years in our individual grav-suits. If you have no idea why newton's law of gravity is important in this matter, then perhaps you have not seen any of the independent research.

Also it is interesting that you stand by your private message, which you were afraid to do in public, because you knew it was going to get you banned. Therefore you did it in private. That says enough in itself, but the funny thing is that you say that it is a fact? And you use a word that starts with an f as an adjective to a noun, which is interesting because I am not f'ing at the moment, my girlfriend is out of town, therefore your statement is false on even the simplest of terms, and cannot be a fact.
:)

regularfry
06-20-2006, 04:09 PM
Exception, I will not accept that the September 11th mass murder was the act of anyone else but those who flew the planes into the towers.

You may claim any degree you like, but speaking as a man who understands mass, inertia and fire... those towers fell because planes hit them at 300+ miles per hours. Please peddle your "theories" elsewhere. This is not the place for them.

Trust me. I'm a physicist. And, to be brutally honest, I have enough nightmares about that day without anyone else pandering to their own agenda. We're talking about The Flag. Not your freaking podium.

WhiteBoy
06-20-2006, 04:15 PM
::sigh:: Conspiracy theorists...

:screwy:

Exception
06-20-2006, 04:19 PM
Look, I am just responding to Mattclary that decided to fire off some profanities in my direction.

This is stuff I associate with the flag, if you have trouble with that, that's really not my problem.

Concerning conspiracies... so you would like to define that which has been presented to us, where several foreign people decided to consipre and fly planes into what not, is not a conspiracy theory?

I hope you all get to live your dream and be happy. I hope I am wrong and don't have to tell you I told you so. But there's a couple of master degrees in engineering telling me otherwise. I am glad yours are not, and that you sleep better than I do.
I havn't even touched upon what you would call a 'conspiracy theory'. I have not the foggiest who might have done it, all i know is, what we have been told, is not correct. If you want to see some of this yourself, pm me and ill send you one internet link you can judge on your own terms. That's it. I'm going to withdraw now, like the others, as I've said what the OP wanted, and responded properly to a direct attack to my person, thus my job's done

Adrian Lopez
06-20-2006, 04:25 PM
If no plane ever hit the Pentagon, does that mean there are no missing passengers except those on the planes that we did get to see on camera? Otherwise, when and where did the missing people disappear if they weren't on board the plane that is said to have hit the pentagon?

Also, if the WTC buildings were not destroyed by planes then why did the destruction of the buildings coincide with the planes striking them? Did the government sacrifice all those civilians in order to make it look like a terrorist attack?

It all seems very far-fetched to me.

mattclary
06-20-2006, 04:27 PM
which you were afraid to do in public, because you knew it was going to get you banned. Therefore you did it in private.

If I were afraid of getting banned, I wouldn't have sent it. Feel free to forward it to the moderators.

Exception
06-20-2006, 04:33 PM
If I were afraid of getting banned, I wouldn't have sent it. Feel free to forward it to the moderators.

No need, I don't have anything to hide, nor am I afraid of the things you say. It's rude, childish, and dumb, so if that's the way you want to be, go ahead.
I am just curious as to why you decided to do it in private? What did you possibly hope to accomplish...

Adrian, if you want to find out, its quite easy to find on the internet. If you want specifics, drop me a line, I don't want to be advertising anything here.

mattclary
06-20-2006, 04:37 PM
The message was to you, not the world.

Exception
06-20-2006, 04:41 PM
Oh so why did you post the non-swearing response in the main thread? That was for the world? So there was a public and a private response, so that the world would not see that you think it is appropriate to yell profanities at people because they excercise their right to free speech?

Look, matt, I respect you and everyone else here on these boards. That was just rediculous. Cut it out, quit slapping people. It will only prove the opposite of what you want to achieve.

Adrian Lopez
06-20-2006, 05:00 PM
Another thing to consider: If you look at footage of the WTC collapse you will notice the buildings begin to collapse at exactly the spot where the smoke from the plane crash begins. I see no other possible conclusion but that the buildings collapsed because of the huge temperatures created by the planes' burning fuel.

mattclary
06-20-2006, 05:17 PM
Oh so why did you post the non-swearing response in the main thread? That was for the world? So there was a public and a private response, so that the world would not see that you think it is appropriate to yell profanities at people because they excercise their right to free speech?

Look, matt, I respect you and everyone else here on these boards. That was just rediculous. Cut it out, quit slapping people. It will only prove the opposite of what you want to achieve.

I save the rational discussion for the public forum, I save my opinion of you for private conversation between you and I.

mattclary
06-20-2006, 05:18 PM
Another thing to consider: If you look at footage of the WTC collapse you will notice the buildings begin to collapse at exactly the spot where the smoke from the plane crash begins. I see no other possible conclusion but that the buildings collapsed because of the huge temperatures created by the planes' burning fuel.

That WOULD seem logical, now wouldn't it?

krimpr
06-20-2006, 05:21 PM
First reaction:

Jeez, another one? Don't they know what it looks like yet?! What;s with the 1000 every city block?

Extended reaction:
Much like most above. A flag of hypocrisy, slapping the world one way or another, for reasons that will mostly stay hidden. A nation that blows up its own pride (Sept 11, WTC was blown up, planes had nothing to do with it (yes I am an engineer, yes I have two master degrees, yes just think about it and do some research, the horrid truth is right there, in your face), kils its own people, deceives them and then uses them as motiviation to attack even more. An oil smeared flag dipped in gold, linedwith blood of the innocent. A nation with great people, whose sons and daughters will once say exactly what the sons and daughters of the germans said after 1950: How could they have ever let this happen?

You're kidding, right? If you're an engineer (and even if you're not) obviously you're aware of how light an airframe is. Disintigrate and combust upon a collision like that? You betcha. Bury bits of that under thousands of tons of demolished concrete and twisted structural steel that was once a pair of the largest buildings in the world and you're not going to be able to distinguish aircraft components from filing cabinets. There are few people I dislike more than G.W, and feel that he has caused the avoidable, unjsustifiable death of thousands of innocent U.S. soldiers and Iraqi civilians alike, but implying that this is anything other than an act of terror is ludicrous.

Exception
06-20-2006, 05:23 PM
Hey I'm not saying anything about this anymore. There's people getting upset over it. If you want to talk about it, we can do it in PM. It has moved way beyond the topic.
I will be able to answer most of those questions, so if you're curious...

Exception
06-20-2006, 05:27 PM
You're kidding, right? If you're an engineer (and even if you're not) obviously you're aware of how light an airframe is. Disintigrate and combust upon a collision like that? You betcha. Bury bits of that under thousands of tons of demolished concrete and twisted structural steel that was once a pair of the largest buildings in the world and you're not going to be able to distinguish aircraft components from filing cabinets. There are few people I dislike more than G.W, and feel that he has caused the avoidable, unjsustifiable death of thousands of innocent U.S. soldiers and Iraqi civilians alike, but implying that this is anything other than an act of terror is ludicrous.


I never said anything about the planes of the WTC not being found, or not being real. They obviously have found the engines and so on of the planes, as well as the black boxes (there's footage of the black boxes and there are numerous firefighters that claim to have found them).
I just said they collapsed because they were blown up, not because of fire or impact caused by the planes.

I said the pentagon was a case of a missing plane. Different building, different story.

Ok, so far for clarification, rest in pm, I'm out.

art
06-20-2006, 05:37 PM
While Bld.7's collapse indeed looks suspicious and my research of Mr. Silverstein induced by this thread tells me something is not exactly right there, the twin towers definetely look like they are being crushed from the top. They do not look like they are in free fall.

I am no engineering expert and I'm not taking sides at this point so my assumptions might be wrong, I rarely participate in discussions like this, but I have a few questions:
A certain "incriminating" movie first tells us how these buildings were built to withstand a plane hit, how much steel and concrete went into building them, etc. Then they show us several puffs of smoke here and there that were supposed to collapse the towers.

How many strategically placed explosives would be required to collapse a building of this size and structure?

Wouldn't the explosions be more visible through the windows?

If the explosions were only inside, wouldt'n that cause a different type of collapse from the one we've all seen?

If explosives were indeed used, wouldn't the body of the towers collapse all at once (free fall) rather than being crushed from top? After all, the whole body was supposed to be weakened by the explosions. It should not stand on its own like it did.

Is it possible that explosions that were apparently heard by many witnesses were caused by something other than explosives?

Is it possible that the timing in the "discriminating" movie is a little off and there is indeed a little slowdown caused by steel and concrete as the building collapses?

:lwicon:

Exception
06-20-2006, 06:04 PM
Art, adrian, please check your PM's.

prospector
06-20-2006, 07:04 PM
when and where did the missing people disappear if they weren't on board the plane that is said to have hit the pentagon?

Vagans...VAGANS I TELL YOU !!!!!!!

Same thing happened to me in my former life.
They are a terrorable bunch.

gjjackson
06-20-2006, 08:13 PM
I wonder how many of these people also believe in the Lizard people that Icke is so fond of talking about. It's pretty evident how All the buildings came down. Some people Need to get a life or at least a dose of reality.

cobaltman
06-20-2006, 08:45 PM
Wow! Such arguments and mouth-foaming this thread made. Threads like these can be interesting.

Heh, heh. It almost sounds like the EIB Network getting invaded or something (Rush L. would be enjoying this, of course). This is so cool.:D

hrgiger
06-20-2006, 09:04 PM
I always enjoy these threads but unfortunately they spin out of control fast. Say what you want now because I don't think this one will live to see another sunset.

Yes, I'm sure that Rush L is sitting back with a big old bottle of oxycotin and enjoying this.(is there a loser smiley?)

Exception
06-20-2006, 09:11 PM
This is so cool.:D

Yeah, it's great when people die, isn't it.