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harpert
05-30-2003, 11:40 AM
I'm interested in the Video Toaster NT system. I have the Toaster Flyer, but instead of buying the VT NT system, I got the RTX100 and I'm turned off by Adobe Premiere and the editing interface which I consider lousy and cumbersome to use. I already have 2 120 GB IDE drives for video and another 120 gb for the system drive. I know the Newtek recommends the drives be SCSI. Could I use my older Flyer drives (or are they not fast enough) or do the drives have to be in a RAID? Could I set up my IDE drives in a RAID instead of buying more SCSI drives? Thanks :)

wvp
05-30-2003, 08:32 PM
I'm not the best person to answer this, but I can tell you that the toaster works fine with IDE drives. You need to connect them to an Escalade controller as a raid system.
Someone with more knowlege can tell you if the drives themselves will be fast enough, but you need to tell us (them) what the make & model is of the 3 120 gb drives you have.
I would suspect that you would want to connect all 3 up to the escalade & get yourself a 40gb or so system drive.
You should check out the system requirements on the Toaster page (unless you like dealing with computer problems instead of editing).

Paul Lara
05-31-2003, 08:10 AM
Originally posted by harpert
I already have 2 120 GB IDE drives for video and another 120 gb for the system drive.

The nice thing about VT [2] is that it works gracefully with both slower computer and slower drives. My suggestion would be to purchase a very affordable drive (say, 40Gig) and then use all THREE IDE drives for your video, to get you started.

forget thinking about your Flyer drives, as they're barely fast enough to play back compressed footage.

harpert
05-31-2003, 12:46 PM
Thanks for the replies so far. Would I need to configure my 120GB Western Digital drives (with 8 mb buffers) as a raid or would an IDE controller card suffice? I can only put 4 IDE drives on my motherboard and the IDE controller card would add 4 more drives. Does the Toaster NT 3 require a motherboard with a certain chipset? And, is there any rendering to do with certain effects? I really didn't think the older Flyer drives would work anyway. I do have 2 newer 18 gb SCSI drives I guess I might be able to use. Thanks:)

SBowie
05-31-2003, 01:19 PM
The WD JB series drives that you have are particularly fast, and while connecting the three of them to an Escalade card will certainly be a workable solution (you can always add more later, as pricing is not too burdensome), I have found that even two of them serving as a simple stripeset (without the add-on controller card) is enough to provide a few realtime streams, and can get you up an running with minimal expense.

harpert
05-31-2003, 01:57 PM
Steve,

Thanks for the fast reply. Okay on the drives. That's a relief about the Western Digital drives I already have. How do you stripe two drives that are not configured as RAID drives? I thought you striped drives only in a RAID configuration?

Thanks :)

Tom

harpert
05-31-2003, 02:07 PM
I'm trying to find the sytem specifications for the VT 3 on the Newtek web site. I recall seeing the button for it sometime ago, but can't find it. I'd like to know if my motherboard is compatible with the VT 3.

Thanks :)

Tom

Paul Lara
05-31-2003, 06:23 PM
Originally posted by harpert
I'm trying to find the sytem specifications for the VT 3 on the Newtek web site.

Tom, you can find the General Hardware Specs here. (http://www.newtek.com/products/videotoaster/info/vt2_buyers-specs.html)


I'd like to know if my motherboard is compatible with the VT 3.

We don't yet have the chipsets posted, which motherboard do you have?

harpert
06-01-2003, 11:43 PM
Thanks for the help on the VT3 system compatiblity page. My motherboard is the 845 PE Max, MS-6580, by MSI.

Thanks:)

Tom

SBowie
06-02-2003, 06:01 AM
Originally posted by harpert

How do you stripe two drives that are not configured as RAID drives? I thought you striped drives only in a RAID configuration?
Nope, in Win2K and XP Pro you can stripe them directly from Window's "Disk Manager." (This is the way almost all SCSI users are running, and is recommended over SCSI RAID boards.) I have a pair of those JB's in my demo box along with a SCSI stripeset. I use the SCSI set for most things, but the EIDE pair is quick enough to serve up a couple streams when required.

harpert
06-02-2003, 08:29 AM
Thanks for the reply. I have 3 new video capable Western Digital IDE drives (7200 RPM, 8mb buffer per drive, but I can't recall the model number) and want to use them instead of buying new SCSI drives. I'm aware Newtek recommends SCSI for various technical reasons, but I would like to use those IDE drives if at all possible. Someone mentioned earlier in a previous post that those IDE drives were adequate for the VT NT. I'd like to know if anyone is using the same Western Digital 120 mb IDE drives I'm using for video on their VT NT systems and if there are any problems using those drives.

Thanks.:)

Tom H.

SBowie
06-02-2003, 09:33 AM
The WD's with the 8 meg cache are JB series, and yes, many are using them. I don't think anyone will argue they are quite as good as SCSI in every way, but many are quite pleased with the price performance combination.

harpert
06-02-2003, 10:18 AM
Steve,

Based on an earlier reply, are you saying I could use the SCSI stripeset option (using Windows 2000) on my Western Digital 120 gb drives? Where in the Windows 2000 Control Panel should I go to find the options to stripe drives - in the Devices section?
Also, I read on the VT system spec page there might be dropout issues, etc., using IDE drives. I assume the WD drives I have would overcome those issues.

Thanks :)

Tom H.

SBowie
06-02-2003, 10:55 AM
Originally posted by harpert

Based on an earlier reply, are you saying I could use the SCSI stripeset option (using Windows 2000) on my Western Digital 120 gb drives? There's no "SCSI stripeset option" Tom, simply a stripeset option ... doesn't matter if the drives are EIDE or SCSI. However it's of limited use with EIDE, since there are normally only 4 EIDE ports to go around (without an add on card). Still, if you use one for your system drive and one for a CD or DVD burner, you can stripe a pair of EIDE drives if you want.


Originally posted by harpert

Where in the Windows 2000 Control Panel should I go to find the options to stripe drives - in the Devices section?
Also, I read on the VT system spec page there might be dropout issues, etc., using IDE drives. I assume the WD drives I have would overcome those issues.
Tom H. IDE drives aren't quite as fast as SCSI, and according to earlier info place somewhat more demand on the cpu ... but they certainly seem to be capable of 'adequacy.'

When you create a volume in Windows Disk Manager (right click on my computer, select Manage, then Disk Manager) you are given the option to create a stripeset instead of a simple volume.

harpert
06-02-2003, 11:31 AM
Steve (& others),

Thanks for all the great support! I made the mistake of purchasing the RT.X100 last winter without fully checking out the VT 2 system (by the way, I find Adobe Premiere so frustrating and cumbersome to use). I'd love to somehow sell my RT.X100 system (even at a price lower than it's being sold at now). I'm now interested in buying the VT 2 with free upgrade to VT 3, however, I'm reluctant to go out and buy compatible SCSI drives which cost alot more than my 'adequate' IDE drives. My motherboard's chipset is 845PE compatible with 512 mb RAM and my AGP video graphics dual monitor board is the Matrox 550. I'm not sure if they're compatible with the Newtek VT board. Matrox touts the RT.X100 as being rendering free for its effects and I had that with my Flyer system. I'm not sure what the rendering times, etc., exist, if any, on the VT 2 or 3. I have the DVDit! LE DVD authoring software and was wondering if that's compatible with the VT 2 or VT 3. I haven't come across DVD authoring info on Newtek's site yet. I need to do some more searching.

Thanks again. :)

Tom H.

harpert
06-02-2003, 01:10 PM
Steve (& others),

I've come to the conclusion that I need to get at least 4 SCSI drives (36 gb Seagates) instead of using my WD 120 GB drives for video. I'm hoping though that at least my motherboard (845PE chipset) and Matrox 550 AGP graphics board are compatible with the Video Toaster 2 and 3. I could use one of my 120 gb drives as the system drive, and the other two 120 gb WD drives for audio and additional storage space.

Thanks again :) ,

Tom H.

harpert
06-04-2003, 09:32 AM
I've received a reply from Newtek regarding my IDE Western Digital 120gb (with 8 mb buffers) drives:

"IDE solutions do not maintain the stability required for a VT system and therefore are not recommended."

I'm getting info from forum participants that my IDE drives are 'adequate' and from a page in Newtek's web site that VT users are having some success with IDE drives. Now I get Newtek's reply above which I'm assuming is the company's standard response.

So, I'm not sure what to do now regarding the drives. I do video work on a part-time basis so my cash flow is an issue. If I use SCSI drives, I'll need to purchase at least 4 36 gb SCSI drives, the u160 or u320 SCSI controller board and a new motherboard. I'm told my 845PE chipset-based motherboard won't work with the Video Toaster NT.

Are there any other Video Toaster NT users who have used the same IDE drives I noted above for video storage with some success in spite of what Newtek says about IDE drives in general?

Thanks
Tom Harper
:)

Pete Draves
06-04-2003, 10:55 AM
we have been setting up 3-ware raid cards for toaster systems.
minimum no of drives is 4
we usually use an 8 drive raid but w does support 3 streams.

as to reliability with the 3-ware raid switch, I have been using them since all we had was ata 33 speed drives.

the reliability of drive failure ... western digital seem st be the most reliable of all the makes

we have been using them on digisuite, Targa 3000, and toaster
for years.

Pete Draves

harpert
06-04-2003, 11:08 AM
Thanks for the reply. What is the maximum number of Western Digital 7200 RPM IDE drives then that I can attach to the 3-ware RAID card - 8 per card?

Thanks:)

Tom Harper

Pete Draves
06-04-2003, 11:29 AM
The 3ware escalade series of raid switches are:

4 drive
8 drive (the one to get)
12 drive

my personal toaster has 8 drives

Taylor video, the dealer I do system integration for, has 8 drives

the western digital 120's give almost a terabyte of storage.
the speed I get is ~ 135 mbytes/sec over the whole drive
yess I have had the raids full. yes three video streams

I usualy run a separate partition on another drive to hold graphics and projects.

If budget is a constraint I recoment 4 drives on an 8 drive card
the controller sets up the raid. you see only one drive in the drive magement panel. you can add drives later when budget allows.
Back up data and reconfigure the raid. reformat and make video.


Pete
T3 is KA

harpert
06-04-2003, 11:50 AM
Pete,

Thanks for the reply. I'm just using a P4 2.4 GHz Intel CPU on a 845PE chipset, 32-bit PCI bus motherboard and I believe the Escalade card is 64-bit unless there's a 32-bit version.

Thanks for the help, :)

Tom Harper

Pete Draves
06-04-2003, 11:55 AM
The 3ware cards are 64/32 bit
using scsi or 3ware on 32 bit the performance will suffer
you should see 2 streams in reality.
background render should take care of that

Pete

SBowie
06-04-2003, 04:27 PM
Originally posted by harpert

So, I'm not sure what to do now regarding the drives. I do video work on a part-time basis so my cash flow is an issue. If I use SCSI drives, I'll need to purchase at least 4 36 gb SCSI drives, the u160 or u320 SCSI controller board and a new motherboard.
If using U320 right off the mobo like many dual-Xeons, 3 has proved perfectly viable, more is gravy. U160's, 4 is better.


Originally posted by harpert
I'm told my 845PE chipset-based motherboard won't work with the Video Toaster NT. It wouldn't be my choice, but there's quite a difference between "not recommended" and "won't work." I can tell you about another guy who was having playback problems, was told the same thing, spent a bundle on a new mobo and RD-RAM, not to mention a couple hundred bucks worth of long distance, still had exactly the same problems -- he found out the 845 chipset wasn't the problem at all, it was a simple Prefs setting.

Simple fact is the T[2] degrades quite gracefully. While optimal systems are certainly desirable, and some hosts just NOT suited, I've got clients still running reasonably happily under the old dual-P3 systems they bought for T[1]. I seriously doubt a dual P3 is recommended either - I sure wouldn't suggest it any more - but that doesn't mean it won't work. When bucks are tight, I wouldn't be running out to spend them if my existing box is capable of paying for the new one if I stick with it for a little while..


Originally posted by harpert

Are there any other Video Toaster NT users who have used the same IDE drives I noted above for video storage with some success in spite of what Newtek says about IDE drives in general?
:) I answered that quite awhile ago. :-p

SCSI best, Escalade quite decent, simple EIDE stripeset adequate to start out with if you don't mind some background rendering when you exceed a couple layers. I'm not making this up, there's one set up that way sitting about 2 inches from my chair.

Pete Draves
06-04-2003, 04:39 PM
I just set up a toaster with the fasttrack 100 card (not a raid)
2 120gig wd drives
2 streams
I digitized over 1.5 hrs no dropped frames
running on 32bit pci slot

Just finjished config
this should work
aprox price on controller $70

promise ultra100 tx2
not a raid
works fine

Pete

SBowie
06-04-2003, 04:44 PM
Pete, thanks. Just as a sidenote, in one older system that I checked out for a customer, we actually got better speeds by dispensing with the Promise and just striping the two WD's. YMMV, of course :)

Pete Draves
06-04-2003, 04:50 PM
Yes Steve:

The Toaster is an amazing beast
I dv is his edit there should be no problem

However the 2 driv 2000 striped set was doing un compressed!

Pete

SBowie
06-04-2003, 04:59 PM
Ditto :)

harpert
07-01-2003, 08:10 AM
Thanks for you support on helping me with my hardware configuration. I ordered the VT (2) (with free upgrade to VT(3)) last week and expect it to arrive later this week. I'd still like to use my 3 120 gb WD IDE drives, purchase a fourth one and attach them to my MSI 845PE chipset motherboard with 4 IDE on-board controllers - striped of course. Based on Steve's response, I'm assuming this could be faster than attaching them to a Promise PCI RAID-0 Fastrack100TX2 UL IDE card to get me by for now with 2 video streams. I would still need a 4-port IDE controller card for my system, audio and DVD-writer drives. For better performance using my IDE drives for video, I assume I would need the more expensive IDE RAID controller card such as the one made by 3ware and get 3-4 streams with it.

Tom H.:)

harpert
07-07-2003, 07:17 AM
I installed my VT over the weekend and I got it up and running without a problem. I'm still using my original configuration: 120 gb IDE system drive, 2 120 gb IDE video drives, DVD burner) running on a P4, 2.4 GHz system. The drives are not striped since I'm in the middle of 2 projects right now. I will stripe the drives after I'm done. I also have a Matrox RT-X.100 editing card I used to create the AVI and WAV clips (transferred via firewire from DV tape). Is it possible to at least get by with this configuration for now and get one video stream out without any system errors until I've completed these projects? I'm adding music to the videos too so I'm planning to use my 120 gb system drive for a couple of music files to get me by for now and replace it with an 80 gb drive until I can purchase another 120 gb drive (for 4 120 gb video storage) and purchase another drive for audio only. My plan is to put the 4 striped 120 gb drives on the motherboard's controller (based on one of Steve's replies, the system and audio drives and DVD burner on an IDE controller card. I want to get at least 2 video streams using this hardware configuration. Will my plan work or am I wasting my time? Thanks.

Tom H. :)

SBowie
07-08-2003, 05:52 AM
Can't really say for sure, never having tried it - but it seems like it should. Worst case scenario, you can always pick up an Escalade and run the 4-120's from that, in any case.

harpert
07-08-2003, 06:19 AM
Steve,

Thanks for the reply. Playing back individual clips is fine and I'm in the process of learning VT2 basics. I'm trying to get used to the new editing environment. The process is similar to the Flyer, but getting used to a different interface will take some adapting.

Tom H.

SBowie
07-08-2003, 12:02 PM
With VT[3] just around the corner, now, we've all got a lot of fun ahead :)