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3D Kiwi
06-03-2006, 02:18 AM
So how does Lightwave 9 compare to the big boys (XSI, Maya), is Newtek on the right track to take these guys on, I dont know about other parts of the world but i know in Sydney the lightwave user base is almost Nill, From what i know there is only a couple of Lightwave studios, and the place i work for is one of them and we are looking at changing to XSI :-(
I want to keep with Lightwave but I cant justify to the Boss when they cant get any workers, Do you think what Newtek has done with 9 and the way they are headed will improve there user base around the world (esp) Sydney?
I want to get the upgrade to 9 but have to wait and see what work does, cant afford 9 and XSI.

So the question i guess im asking is Lightwave on the right track to earn the respect of the world like Maya, XSI etc or is it just going mill around were it is now forever?

Darth Mole
06-03-2006, 02:35 AM
At the moment, it seems every other post includes the phrase 'we're moving to XSI' - I figure a lot of it is about inertia. And at the moment, XSI seems to be THE place to be.

Obviously it depends what work you do; in some ways being a good jack-of-all-trades might work against LW; if you want to do motion graphics, C4D is the way to go. If you want to do CA, XSI or Maya is it. For me, LW packs a real punch straight out of the box, but as the market matures different companies start to focus their strengths and rationalise on tools that are one trick ponies - but are really good at that one trick.

So far, from what I've seen of LW9 it seems a different beast: properly thought out and increasingly stable with each new beta build. But I think it NewTek needs to come out with a different and amazing new CA paradigm to make any impact on XSI; lets hope it can.

DragonFist
06-03-2006, 02:43 AM
I basically agree. LW9 is rocking and one can tell that LW and Newtek are headed in the right direction and have added some awesome features.

The two areas that I think that LW needs serious work to be really top notch are Character Animation and UV Mapping tools(just a cubic mapping option would help).

These are the two areas that are currently a pain.

For me, that's pretty much it. There are lots of little points that need clean up but no show stoppers. Get these two areas up and running and at this price point, I don't see anything being able to truly compete with LW.

cresshead
06-03-2006, 02:47 AM
i think lightwave is on the right track, for example newtek's implementation of node editing is much more intuitive than that of xsi as they have shader balls on every node...xsi has a coloured text box in comparison so you only see the final result of your sader tree in the region render [i'm using xsi foundation4.2 btw] this means you can 'see' how your nodes are working at every level with lightwave9

as for character tools lightwave is okay but xsi is more robust in their implementation of a default biped rig/quadroped rig and their motion mixer/clip mixer does work well [see poccoyo childrens tv show for that]

renderer?...xsi is okay but locked into mental ray so rendering is expensive..many xsi studios also use pint oven to transfer their shot to other apps/renderers...as i understand it only 3dsmax has unlimited FREE render nodes for mental ray using backburner which makes using mental ray a real option for tv shows etc..for print it's not such a big deal. [single pic]

as for xsi being the 'app on the move', yeah lots of studios/people are trying it..i have xsi for example but i don't use it..i prefer lightwave/3dsmax as they get the job done faster and with less headaches...my personal experience of course!

i'd also say the app that comes with 'everything' out of the box is 3dsmax ...and with maya now owned by autodesk the links to that app and moving data between the two will get better...see what happens at siggraph this year.

lightwave still delivers excelent work though...i hope the modeling tools promised for leyout start to appear in the next few months that will then be a yardstick to judge where lightwave's roadmap is heading properly.

3D Kiwi
06-03-2006, 02:49 AM
For me, that's pretty much it. There are lots of little points that need clean up but no show stoppers. Get these two areas up and running and at this price point, I don't see anything being able to truly compete with LW.[/QUOTE]


By price point do you mean that it will become the best cheap 3d app out there or do you think we will start seeing Lightwave make its way into the big 3d studios, Dreamworks, Weta etc?

DragonFist
06-03-2006, 03:05 AM
I think that it will be the best cheap 3D app out there and quite capable of making it into the big companies (though some of the really big ones make their own, can't really get around that).

If I were a house executive and had a program that cost $800 and really handled everything these other programs did but at 2x or 3x the cost and no license fees per render node, it would be a no brainer.

Sure even then there might be a program or two that does some one thing better but I would seriously consider a pipeline that had most of my boys sitting at LW seats and one or two doing the specialized stuff and bringing it over to Lightwave for that basically free render.

And what else needs fixing to bring it up to that level? I mean the renderer produces excellent results as is and is being brought up to date. There are various things that need work, but seem to be being worked on. Nodes are the best interface I've seen and they will likely be everywhere in lightwave. And from what I've seen, it looks like 3rd parties can easily add tons more with custom nodes. The question may well be "what can't be done?"

So, in short term, I think it will be the best cheap 3D app out there; and in the long term has a good chance of catching up and passing by the big boys.

cresshead
06-03-2006, 03:08 AM
most large film studios use maya as maya has mel which can be used by TD's to make new tools...there's also a strong pipe for renderman with maya..

i don't see xsi, 3dsmax, cinema4d or lightwave as a prospect that will change an already working production pipline from maya to anything else...maybe some extra seats could be lw, 3dsmax or xsi...

new studios can go where they want...so ew studios based on xsi/max/cinema/lightwave will and have been setup.

the workforce coming out of college's are being trained on maya and 3dsmax..something the think about when looking at large studios and the people they use.

don't forget that the largest 'media' 3d market is that of games and 3dsmax/maya has a near death like grip on that sector!

radams
06-03-2006, 03:11 AM
...I dont know about other parts of the world but i know in Sydney the lightwave user base is almost Nill, From what i know there is only a couple of Lightwave studios, and the place i work for is one of them and we are looking at changing to XSI :-(

Would your studio want to hire any of us from outside NZ or AU ? ;)

I agree that the Educational base of LW is not what it should be...but like with other studios...do you have an inhouse training to help get artists up to speed with your pipeline and applications...both off the shelf and custom ?

What kind of production does your studio do? Can you have two pipelines running ?

XSI has some interesting things going for it...but LW is a good all round system. I'm seriously concerned about
3dsMax and Maya now that AutoDESK owns them both...and that goes for the FBX format..Grrrrrr.

Now there are many in the LW community who also work with XSI...in fact the basic workflows are compatible with each other...so why not merge the best of both worlds for the Studio...and cross train on both?

Hey if you need an experienced Supervisor and pipeline specialist...let me know ;)

Cheers,

3D Kiwi
06-03-2006, 03:18 AM
Would your studio want to hire any of us from outside NZ or AU ? ;)

I agree that the Educational base of LW is not what it should be...but like with other studios...do you have an inhouse training to help get artists up to speed with your pipeline and applications...both off the shelf and custom ?

What kind of production does your studio do? Can you have two pipelines running ?

XSI has some interesting things going for it...but LW is a good all round system. I'm seriously concerned about
3dsMax and Maya now that AutoDESK owns them both...and that goes for the FBX format..Grrrrrr.

Now there are many in the LW community who also work with XSI...in fact the basic workflows are compatible with each other...so why not merge the best of both worlds for the Studio...and cross train on both?

Hey if you need an experienced Supervisor and pipeline specialist...let me know ;)

Cheers,

Well I think they would have no worries employing out of aussie, We did put a job post on this site a couple of mths back and i think we only got 1 reply, Not a good sign really for a world wide job add.

We are quite small so i dont think two pipelines would be possable, but maybe in the future, One idea being thrown around is to do most the animating in XSI and point oven back to lightwave to render. I am kind of hoping that is what they do then i get to keep playing with lightwave...

cresshead
06-03-2006, 03:23 AM
the xsi/lighwave animate/render idea is a good one to fly around...point oven is quite robust i hear so you can rely on it in a production...and you'll gain those FREE render nodes...which should SELL the idea to your boss...you could base it around xsi foundation5.0 which would be really cheap to get up n running...still you will have to learn the little idiosyncratic ways of xsi..good luck!

icedeyes
06-03-2006, 04:26 AM
I own Hexagon, XSI (Fnd) and Lightwave.... I love them all the same and am quite comfortable with all of them... They all have their plus and minus but it all comes down to what you are used to using... any program can be great... I use Lightwave for modeling purposes (even though i love xsi's modelling tools, i think that lw really owns the modelling proccess in terms of speed with hexagon coming second) and XSI for rigging and animating (I just cant get my head around how lightwave works when it comes to rigging)... Rendering and surfacing are done in either one according to the needs of the project while UV unwraping is done in Hexagon when needed... So i really think that it all boils down to what you can use effectivelly and for what purpose... What almost made me switch to xsi though at a point in time was the render region option which is just perfect and makes your workflow faster... Before anyone says anything about fprime, i have to say that i like to rely on the software itself and not any external plugins (and VIPER is a little outdated in that department) even though i might buy it if it gets optimized for node work in 9.... In my opinion Lw deserves better than getting called the best cheap 3d application... There is just so much more there (if only NT changed their character animation toolset *hint*)...

cresshead: LW gets used in production just not as heavily as maya or xsi... I am sure some of the effects at EdenFX and most of them at Zoic are done in LW and they all look perfect...

t4d
06-03-2006, 04:58 AM
I own XSI 5.1 ess, Messiah 2.4 , Modo201, Zbrush, Hex 2, Poser 6 and Lightwave 9, etc etc etc


LW 9 render is pretty cool compaired to others
the new camera tools the many other new redner stuff is pretty cool alot has been added
if your a Render dude I can't image why you would be unhappy with Lw 9

XSI is far more powerful BUT the render tree does have some work in it to learn and get the most out of it, it's ten steps ahead of LW but you need to learn it

Modo is faster and cleaner the LW 9 but the shader tree is not a simple and cool as LW's But it's ahead of LW by afew steps

Modeler compaired to XSI and Modo well the main thing is Modeler has just too many buttons and the interface is old
( exsample one bevel command works on points, edges and polygons in Modo and XSI )
but really it's just points and polygons so LW modeler still is Cool for that type of work

let's say LW is one step behide Modo and XSI when i comes to polygons and points.

------------------------------------------------------------------

the biggest problem for Lightwave is Layout
it's missing HUNDREDS of tools, Commands, features workflow
IK, motion mod's, Deformation everything in layout is just really OLD
compaired to XSI and Messiah. the whole think needs a major rethink.

the systems in place in Messiah and XSI for IK, deformation etc is SO WELL DESIGNED !!!!
stacking your IK and deformers, Motion mixer build from the core etc
it seem LW has not had any workflow design at all
and we live in a time where Features and workflow are everything
and LW is missing alot in that area.

IK for instance in XSI is IKB but 100 years from the future
It would take pages to write on how it works but it's extremely simple too and has the same workflow as everything else in XSI.

XSI's system has been build over many versions
But LW has had the same IK since 5.6....

developer and users need to envolve the systems in there software
when a developer drops developing a major feature
we get what we have now with LW...

prospector
06-03-2006, 07:46 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So how does Lightwave 9 compare to the big boys (XSI, Maya),

So the question i guess im asking is Lightwave on the right track to earn the respect of the world like Maya, XSI

HMMMMM, strange position to start off with.

3D Kiwi
06-03-2006, 04:43 PM
HMMMMM, strange position to start off with.

How did you know I was standing on my head when i wrote this???


The force must be strong with this one!!

wacom
06-03-2006, 06:31 PM
I say there is room for them all. Why does a studio have to ditch everything all at once? With PointOven and a fairly good TD shouldn't you be able to keep LW around and use several other applications?

Instead of "switch" try and lead them towards intergration and augmentation. Tell them they should remain flexable- and that they shouldn't depend on any one application for every job. Most studios don't seem to use just one app anyway. That's my opinion.

That said- animation in some of the other packages kicks arse. Don't believe the IK-booster crew though that's about to desend on this forum either!

Stjepanovic
11-05-2007, 02:34 PM
I know you as a C4D experts. I am suprised that you are asking about lightwave. I myself am also a long time user/renderer on CD4D but I quit for simple reason - expensive package with ungratefull direspectful customer service. This is where Newtek shines no matter what other people say. Unless you pay exorbitant amount of money to Autodesk for 3Dmax supprot or to Avid (somewhat less) for XSI you will get nothing. Not the case with Lightwave. ALso it's true every version is a step forward (and you do not pay for each step; Maxon enticing trick) and still you can add on - for $295 you can add Messiah CA as a native plugins module...Fprime...etc. Generally compared to obfuscating Maxon's modular way of adding features, plugins, addons on LW are far more cheaper and/or free compared to Cinema 4D and even compared to 3DMax. One thing that 3Dmax and LW boast is huge user base (despite of your outlook in Australia) and enormus amount of support, manuals, user groups etc.
Maya , XSI? Well this is higher category and so is the price. You get what you pay for. However LW + Messiah is extremly powerful combination. Likewise 3Dmax plus Btools, Brazil r/s ....superpowerfull. In the hand of a trained person can do the same the XSI does. The only thing LW + Messiah + Fprime is far cheaper than 3Dmax or Cinema 4D or Maya.
The question should be should I get Maya or 3dMax? That's a tougher one.

t4d
11-05-2007, 04:24 PM
Maya , XSI? Well this is higher category and so is the price. You get what you pay for.

XSI fnd only costs $ 495 ??

pooby
11-06-2007, 04:39 AM
Why not start to learn XSI on the mod tool? It's free, doesn't run out of time and has pretty much everything in it. Then make a decision based on that.
I can't imagine any Rigger/animator coming from LW being anything but totally amazed and delighted having XSI to use.
With point oven, its connection to LW regarding animation is about as complex as the model editing connection between Modeller and Layout.

It shouldn't be used for commercial work though.

Lightwolf
11-06-2007, 04:54 AM
i think lightwave is on the right track, for example newtek's implementation of node editing is much more intuitive than that of xsi as they have shader balls on every node...xsi has a coloured text box in comparison so you only see the final result of your sader tree in the region render [i'm using xsi foundation4.2 btw] this means you can 'see' how your nodes are working at every level with lightwave9

Just as an info... that changed dramatically in XSI. You can have floating previews for the nodes as well as previews within the nodes. I'm not sure if that was added in 6 or 5 though...

Edit: allright, who dragged this thread back from the past?

Cheers,
Mike