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View Full Version : Will there finally be muscles in LW version 9 ?



andy gee
06-01-2006, 04:03 PM
Hi everybody

i would like to know if lightwave version 9 will feature muscles which can be

used on characters for easy joint manipulation ? (muscle deformers which are

tied to bones and has the geometry skinned over them)

like in other packages ie soft image or maya

I mean up until now lightwave hasnt really had any muscle modes, instead

there has been a flood of work arounds ie joint morphs, smart skinning etc.

So im wondering if there will be anything like this in Version 9, or are we

going to have to wait until version 10, or failing that version 11 ?!!

Thanks

Andy Gee

erikals
06-01-2006, 05:20 PM
Nope, there's no record of it in the LW9 feature list so I highly doubt it. Hope to see it by 10.
Interesting read.
http://www.spinquad.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8206&page=1&pp=15

Later on I found PolyFit interesting, have yet to try it. You can see SplineGod's "Muscle Deformer" tutorial using PolyFit at http://www.3dtrainingonline.com/support/

Hope some allright Muscle simulation comes around soon.
NT has stated they will focus on the CA part in 10, so hope they concider it.
Maya, XSI and Max has the ability to do it, so hope NT follows the trend.

I wonder how many waver's that wants it though, I guess one could make a pool on it.

erikals
06-01-2006, 05:29 PM
Two pools on it (a bit old though)
http://www.newtek.com/forums/showthread.php?t=24777
http://www.newtek.com/forums/showthread.php?t=24778

andy gee
06-01-2006, 05:35 PM
Hi

I am surprised that NewTek havent considered this option in earlier versions

of lightwave, especially for character animators and artists having to go

through and create either joint morphs or other lengthy work arounds. It

surly is a must, "COME ON NEWTEK" give your loyal public what they want !

We Want Muscles, We Want Muscles, We Want Muscles, We Want Muscles

Andy Gee

stevecullum
06-01-2006, 05:38 PM
There is a set of plugins available called RV_Rigtools, which among other things comes with RV muscle. It uses a muscle bones to expand and contract the skin as the arm flex's or whatever. On the site there is useage docs.

http://www.topix.com/reevan/spine/

RedBull
06-01-2006, 06:14 PM
SideFX's Houdini 8.1 included an amazing muscle system...
NT take note, the Beta is a free download, it shows how it's meant to be done.

wacom
06-01-2006, 06:24 PM
I want this feature to, but to be quite honest there are a ton of CA features that are needed even sooner or more badly. I know that's subjective to some degree, but it's just my opinion.

And yes Houdini is an awsome simulation tool...and I'm not saying LW shouldn't aim for the stars...but have you priced out Houdini?

stevecullum
06-01-2006, 07:18 PM
And yes Houdini is an awsome simulation tool...and I'm not saying LW shouldn't aim for the stars...but have you priced out Houdini?

If you want the good stuff, you need a second mortgage don't you? :D

wacom
06-01-2006, 07:31 PM
Hey, if you or your company/production need such things then by all means you should go for it.

"Word History: The great jurist Sir Edward Coke, who lived from 1552 to 1634, has explained why the term mortgage comes from the Old French words mort, “dead,” and gage, “pledge.” It seemed to him that it had to do with the doubtfulness of whether or not the mortgagor will pay the debt. If the mortgagor does not, then the land pledged to the mortgagee as security for the debt “is taken from him for ever, and so dead to him upon condition, &c. And if he doth pay the money, then the pledge is dead as to the [mortgagee].” This etymology, as understood by 17th-century attorneys, of the Old French term morgage, which we adopted, may well be correct. The term has been in English much longer than the 17th century, being first recorded in Middle English with the form morgage and the figurative sense “pledge” in a work written before 1393."

stevecullum
06-01-2006, 07:36 PM
Wow, thats heavy ye olde English scripting for this time of the morning :)

Oh, undoubtly if the production called for it and budget isn't an issue then fair enough, but for mere mortals like myself, I have to rely on the talented developers at Newtek.

erikals
06-01-2006, 07:42 PM
There is a set of plugins available called RV_Rigtools, which among other things comes with RV muscle. It uses a muscle bones to expand and contract the skin as the arm flex's or whatever. On the site there is useage docs.http://www.topix.com/reevan/spine/

This is just like other regular LW Musle Bones plugins, right?

stevecullum
06-01-2006, 08:28 PM
Apparantly its alot easier to setup than regular musclebone systems. Personally, I haven't ever tried them, although I will at some point. I know Splinegod uses this one, so maybe if he's out there, he could say why there better than other systems :hey:

sudac20
06-01-2006, 08:30 PM
I also would love a muscle system. I gave up on using Lightwave for character animation (Motionbuilder rocks) but I still like to use Lightwave for rendering and a muscle system and better cloth tools would make my day. (Truth be told I came real close to dropping Lightwave out of my pipeline but so far v9 looks very promising lets hope Newtek continues to claw its way back into competition with the big dogs)

SplineGod
06-02-2006, 01:20 AM
RV_Muscle is the easiest to set up IMO. Takes very little thinking (which is good). It works great with IKBoost which is rapidly becoming my preferred way to rig and animate in LW.

Dodgy
06-02-2006, 03:12 AM
<plug> There's also my muscle bone plugin. Just select your bicep bone, select your wrist bone and Select Make Muscle Bone. It sets up the goal bone for you, and opens an adjustment panel. </plug>

:)

stevecullum
06-02-2006, 04:11 AM
RV_Muscle is the easiest to set up IMO. Takes very little thinking (which is good). It works great with IKBoost which is rapidly becoming my preferred way to rig and animate in LW.

There wasn't much documentation with this one, so I'm wondering what the basics are?

Something brief like Dodgy's plug would be great!

SplineGod
06-02-2006, 05:45 AM
I didnt know Dodgy had one, Ill check it out.
RV muscle is pretty simple too. Just select a bone and tell it what you want to target/attach it too.

stevecullum
06-02-2006, 05:55 AM
Thanks!

Sounds pretty simple, although for some reason I got wierd results when I tried it. But there again, I have no real idea of the 'standard' muscle bone set up!

It would be cool if you added something to your rigging DVD's for 9 that showed a decent muscle bone rig for body and face.

My credit card is waiting... :)

pixelinfected
06-02-2006, 06:25 AM
if you see the muscle bone setup in messiah video you can see a good muscle bone setup with rv tools. i think that newtek users must do a monument to this developer.

SplineGod
06-02-2006, 07:07 AM
A 'standard' muscle bone setup, IMO, is whatever works :)
I love what can be done combining it with IKBoost.
BTW Steve I posted up a very quick 4 minute demo of a strictly IKBoost rig.
I spent maybe 10 minutes or so setting it up.
http://www.3dtrainingonline.com/examples/ikb_rig_demo.mov

erikals
06-02-2006, 08:10 AM
Give your vote to what you want in future LW CA,
Link -What needs to happen with character animaiton... (http://www.newtek.com/forums/showthread.php?t=45630)

adrencg
06-02-2006, 08:33 AM
Muscles? I just want a tight IK system before I go worrying' about some new muscle system that probably won't work right until version 12.5.

erikals
06-02-2006, 08:57 AM
..who says we can't have both ;)

evenflcw
06-02-2006, 01:41 PM
What's the point in voting when your alternative isn't even in there. Frankly, I hate polls such as that one. One person concieved the alternatives and nothing is written as to how these features are acctually supposed to be implemented and work - which is more important than acctually having the listed feature. What's the point in having it if it's too inflexible and too hard to use? We need to be careful what we ask for and how we ask. Very careful! People asked for edges... NT initially b(r)ought them dstorms edge tools, edge bevel and rounder. Yay! NOT!

I agree with wacom. Muscles need to come later. Before that NT need to do a complete overhaul of the animation and deformation systems to allow for much more flexibility and functionality.

RedBull
06-02-2006, 03:05 PM
And yes Houdini is an awsome simulation tool...and I'm not saying LW shouldn't aim for the stars...but have you priced out Houdini?

Yes, it's pretty well priced actually, as long as you aren't talking about
the Houdini Master... At $18,000USD

Houdini Select and Houdini Escape (CA) are fairly well priced....
$1200 > $2000 Houdini Escape includes the new Muscle System, which is better than anybody elses, by a long margin....

When you price other rigging software without muscle systems,
it's a pretty good price..... Motion Builder Standard is $4000 and Pro $6500,
On top of that you need something like Maya.....
So Houdini is well priced in my opinion... (considering what it can do)

You can download Houdini Apprenctice, or 8.1 Public Beta for a free test drive.

wacom
06-02-2006, 06:37 PM
Yes, it's pretty well priced actually, as long as you aren't talking about
the Houdini Master... At $18,000USD

Houdini Select and Houdini Escape (CA) are fairly well priced....
$1200 > $2000 Houdini Escape includes the new Muscle System, which is better than anybody elses, by a long margin....

When you price other rigging software without muscle systems,
it's a pretty good price..... Motion Builder Standard is $4000 and Pro $6500,
On top of that you need something like Maya.....
So Houdini is well priced in my opinion... (considering what it can do)

You can download Houdini Apprenctice, or 8.1 Public Beta for a free test drive.

Whoa! They really dropped their pricing since I last looked...hmmm...renderman export to 3Delight...

jcaesar
06-02-2006, 07:38 PM
Hi

I am surprised that NewTek havent considered this option in earlier versions

of lightwave, especially for character animators and artists having to go

through and create either joint morphs or other lengthy work arounds. It

surly is a must, "COME ON NEWTEK" give your loyal public what they want !

We Want Muscles, We Want Muscles, We Want Muscles, We Want Muscles

Andy Gee

I'm sure at some point they have considered it. What we have to remember though, is that version 9, while there are many cool new features, is primarily a re-write so they can organize the codebase and make it easier for them to implement all these new wonderful features people want. Previously the code between modeler and layout were too dis-jointed (as I understand Newtek's comments) for extremely complex features, such as muscles, to be implemented on a timely basis.

J

SplineGod
06-03-2006, 04:12 AM
Plus this isnt an app thats focused on one single thing in particular. This is a but one of many things people want to see improved. :)

stevecullum
06-03-2006, 09:23 AM
BTW Steve I posted up a very quick 4 minute demo of a strictly IKBoost rig.
I spent maybe 10 minutes or so setting it up.

Thanks for showing that Larry!

I noticed toward the bottom of the spine that a couple of bones were starting to bend a bit oddly. It could just be the way you set up the character, but usually for me, that kind of bending is the pre-cursor to the funky bendy twist out all over the place thing that IKBoost does sometimes!

I really haven't had much time to play with IKboost, but its good to get plenty of exposure to it :)

SplineGod
06-03-2006, 09:35 AM
Given the speed at which I set it up I havent had any problems with it flipping out. Also Ive found that when I use the IK Target function that I can get wiggy joints. IF I do I set the mode for that joint to quaternian and that almost always fixes it. :)