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Illusion Maker
05-25-2006, 02:56 PM
Can anyone tell me how to animate grass? I followed a great tutroial on creating grass with Sasquatsh Lite. Buit no where can I find anything that shows or tell how to animate it.

Illusion Maker
05-25-2006, 04:24 PM
I create some of the most beautiful realistic environments imaginable. However, for this simple scene, I am having a grass animation problem. I can create it in 3DS Max but it couldn't deliver the look or feel I needed. So I tried Sasquatch Lite and that worked. (Refer to the image and I usually create light brown grass.) I also tried other Sasqatch tutorials, but none could cojme close to referneceing how fur or grass can be animated and blown by wind. Weird. Anyone know how?

hrgiger
05-25-2006, 05:42 PM
The full version of Sasquatch can animate fibers but the lite version cannot.

MooseDog
05-25-2006, 07:16 PM
i'd be happy to stand corrected, but can't saslite be used on poly-chains like full-sas? i beleive it can be, and the chains can be animated.

erikals
05-26-2006, 03:28 AM
Just read about some SasLite limits in the manual (p 596)
SasLite will not put fur or hair on objects with more than 25000 points.
Plus max 6 instances of fur or hair can be in the scene.
So, maximum/ theoretically, you can use no more than 1500000 points in a scene.
So if you animate the chains I guess it should work.

SplineGod
05-26-2006, 03:42 AM
You can animate fur and hair with saslite.
You can apply dynamics to the geometry which is probably the hard way.
The easy way is to use animated displacement maps.
You can create a polygon and give it lots of segments.
apply a weight map to the polys.
Now select the points on one half and delete them. This will create a string of 2point polys with a weight map on them.
Now clone those around using something like point clone plus.
Apply a displacement map and animate it thru the 2 point polys.
Apply a gradient with the input parameter set to weight map and the blending mode set to alpha.
The gradient will use the weight map to keep the root in place while the rest of the 2point polys bend and move.
Use those as hair guides in the usuall way.

For fur create a subdivided ground object. Apply a subtle, animated displacement map on it. Apply saslite fur in the usual way. As the ground object displaces so will the fur. Remember to texture the ground so that the grass blends in. If the ground movement is being seen then just duplicate the ground, make it invisible but animate the displacement on it the same way and apply saslite the same way. Heres a quickie example of animating fur in saslite using this method:
http://www.3dtrainingonline.com/examples/grass2.mov
http://www.3dtrainingonline.com/examples/grass3.mov

In case you run into the polygon limit you can render some saslite animations out and map them onto background polys to fill in.
You can also just animate some geometry in the background. You can also map grass images onto polys and animate them
with the same displacement map. This makes it easier to fill in the gaps in case you do hit that point limit. :)

Illusion Maker
05-26-2006, 05:37 AM
Wow, awsome, I will work on that, thank you very much.

SplineGod
05-26-2006, 05:48 AM
No problem :)

hrgiger
05-26-2006, 07:48 AM
Yes, you can animate saslite the brute force way.

The full version of Sasquatch animates automatically with object movement in addition to being able to be blown by Wind Effectors. It also requires no pre-calculation.

I'm not sure that the displacment map option is a good one, but it might be your only one with Saslite. As Larry's examples clearly show, it makes the grass look like it's having a seizure, rather then being affected by wind or objects.

Dynamics would probably yield a better result, but would be incredibly inefficient with possibly thousands, if not more, strands of grass chains.

SplineGod
05-26-2006, 10:45 PM
Illusion Maker,
Some may consider that dropping sas onto a grid object and adding a simple displacement map to it as 'brute force' but I dont. Its dead simple. Brute force to me is dropping a couple hundred bucks to do what the base application WILL do.
My example only clearly shows the effect I was trying to achieve:
1. A ball rolling and displacing the grass
2. A simple test to see I could local the effect of helicopter rotor wash or the effect near the base of a tornado. The 'seizure' effect was purely intentional.

The only thing clearly shown in the comments were ignorance of what I was trying to do and wrongfully assuming that LW wont do what you want to acheive without spending extra bucks.

Heres another very quick and easy test I did showing clearly that if you tweak the texture a bit you can get a decent effect quickly. The nice thing is that you can see the displacement in realtime so youll know where the grass will be rolling in the wind. :)
http://www.3dtrainingonline.com/examples/waving_grass.mov

hrgiger
05-27-2006, 12:55 AM
Larry, my comments were not directed at you, rather the limitations of the saslite plug-in. Yes, you've shown animated grass and yes, you've shown that same displacement following the movement of a ball through that grass. But neither of your examples, nor the last one you've posted achieves a believable result. If that's his only option with Saslite, then that's his only option and it may have to do.
Excuse my ignorance for not knowing that you intentionally wanted to make the grass look like it was having a seizure.

SplineGod
05-27-2006, 01:09 AM
I can excuse your ignorance. What amazes me is you actually posting those comments based upon that ignorance. Dont assume anything.
Also far as the result...again, where did I say that ANY of those were finished pieces? I think I said they were tests or 'quick examples'. I would think anyone would get from those statements that they arent finished pieces. I doubt that someone could jump into sasquatch and quickly produce believable results. Also whether believeable results could be achieved or not using displacments is purely based on YOUR level of skill with LW so dont assume others cant do it just because you cant.

You indicated to Illusion maker that my example showed that the approach I indicated produced bad results. When I posted another test where said seizure activity isnt happening you still have to keep going with the misplaced comments. Regardless if the comments are directed at me or not they are wrong and misleading.

He also didnt ask about Sasquatch I focused on answering his question which was specifically about Saslite.

hrgiger
05-27-2006, 08:40 AM
Well actually Larry, all three of your results produced bad results. Grass doesn't move that way, sorry. You don't have to have any experience in CG or have any experience in LW to know that. You can disagree with that observation, but that doesn't make my observation wrong or misleading just because it doesn't align with yours. Perhaps you live in a world where grass is blown from a million different directions making it appear as if it's having a seizure, but I do not.
Secondly, anyone could achive believable results in Sasquatch because motion dynamics are applied automatically and wind results can be controlled by windblower objects which can be animated as needed. This is of course applies to Sasquatch fur. Sasquatch applied to Sasquatch hair has to be animated using traditional methods.
When did I comment that any of your examples were finished or otherwise? I just said they weren't great examples. If you want to show what can be done with displacements, then show good results, otherwise why bother posting anything? Of course, you can give any object motion in Lightwave by applying displacements, that doesn't mean it will be believable. What does anyone care if it's finished or not?

SplineGod
05-27-2006, 09:20 AM
All 3 of my results were simple quick tests. Apparently youre too dense to figure that out. And you dont have to be an expert in CG to figure that out either.
I dont see the word 'believeable' in Illusion Makers question. I also didnt see anywhere where he asked how to make grass thats believeable according to Steves standards. In fact I dont recall him asking for input your input on the examples I provided for him. I also missed the part where any examples I post for someone else has to satisfy YOUR personal sense of 'good'. I believe he was satisified with the response I gave when he said, 'Wow, awesome, I will work on that, thank you" Illusion Maker seemed pretty ok with the examples I gave. Nothing youve said answered his question. This is just another opportunity for Steve to be Steve again. Whats the point in you continuing to beat a dead horse?:offtopic:

hrgiger
05-27-2006, 09:47 AM
I dont see the word 'believeable' in Illusion Makers question.


I create some of the most beautiful realistic environments imaginable.

Realistic, believable, very much synonomous.

No, he didn't ask me to comment on your examples, but then these boards are not simply input only upon request. Deal with it. I didn't realize there was a law that you could only post on these boards when someone asked for your input.

The fact is, you don't take criticism at all and you believe you are some sort of untouchable when it comes to CG and you are not. I was not rude, and if the way I describe my oberservation seems harsh for you, then you need to grow a skin perhaps.

erikals
05-27-2006, 10:42 AM
I agree with both of you http://forums.cgsociety.org/images/smilies/wink.gif
Anyway, I like SplineGod's examples, no, I guess they are not realistic but it shows what can be done, but I'm sure that can be improved by tweaking some settings. I wouldn't say it would have to be required by him to make a finished setting, though it would be a benefitial I guess. But it depends on the time you have on your hands.

Time, if I had it, I would have finished this test I made using Metalink to calculate the grass ;)
http://erikalstad.com/cgtemp/metalink_rocks.zip

hrgiger
05-27-2006, 01:47 PM
Anyway, I like SplineGod's examples, no, I guess they are not realistic but it shows what can be done, but I'm sure that can be improved by tweaking some settings.

Yes, it shows what can be done and I credited it as such. That's just the limitations of Saslite and it wasn't anything personal against Larry but that's the way he chooses to take it. Perhaps there is a better texture to use as a displacement that would give better results.

Here is a quick sample of my own using Sasquatch. I've never used the wind feature before but I set this up in under a minute just giving the wind panel some random values. I kept them pretty low just to make a gentle wind. There is a good example of wind blown grass on Worleys site as well.

Sorry for the file size (15mb) but I made it quicktime since everyone seems to be able to play them and I don't know a lot about QT compression methods.

http://www.3dnocturne.com/WindGrass.rar

SplineGod
05-27-2006, 03:50 PM
Sorry Steve but I dont think your example looks any better or worse then the examples I posted.
Amazing how Erikals was able to get the point without being rude, something you seem to thrive on. Seems like either method produces similar results when done quickly as examples. You would think for the extra cash you spent on the full version you could do better....oh well.

hrgiger
05-27-2006, 06:05 PM
Sorry Steve but I dont think your example looks any better or worse then the examples I posted.

Of course you don't.
You only have to look at the way your stalks of grass 'break' into segments as they're being deformed by the displacement map to understand why it doesn't look realistic, as opposed to swaying in the wind. That's ok though, take a look at the example on Worleys page to see a better example of grass actually being blown by wind to see how much improved the full version is over the lite version. You couldnt' do anything close to that with a displacement map.


You would think for the extra cash you spent on the full version you could do better....oh well.

Technically, I got Sas for free bundled with a second license of Lightwave I bought off another forum user for $500. And as I said, I setup that scene in less then a minute and it certainly looks better then the seizure lite version, both in movement and shading.

3D Kiwi
05-27-2006, 06:43 PM
Can anyone tell me how to animate grass? I followed a great tutroial on creating grass with Sasquatsh Lite. Buit no where can I find anything that shows or tell how to animate it.

Hi Illusion Maker, Not to sure if you got the answer you wanted from this thread, but i made a tut on using guide chains and saslite to animate grass with wind etc a while ago in LW7, it looks pretty cool to me, just need to tweek the length of the chains and the wind etc to get the look you want, if you want to have a look at the tut pm me and i will email it to you, not to keen to put it up here after reading this thread, god only knows the comments i would get.

SplineGod
05-27-2006, 06:53 PM
Im sure Steves example looks great and he probably put considerable time into it. The point is Steve is I created a simple example in a minute or so to DEMONSTRATE. You did the same thing and it doesnt look any more realistic. As to whether or not a displacement map COULD do better or not...who knows.
Your stalks of grass dont look anything close to real not to mention the so called wind. Bottom line Steve is that your comments about realism are unfounded simply for the reason Erikals mentioned: Its a quick demo with no time spent on finessing it to look real. The same goes for what you did...its a quick setup and no time was spent to make it look real. Anyone else would grasp that concept. Am I supposed to now start claiming that you arent able to handle having your work critiqued simply because I decide to take what you presented out of context just to act like you?

3D Kiwi,
Kia Ora! :)
I agree, its probably a good idea to not post it here unless youve spent a good solid week tweaking it or risk having it taken out of context and criticized. :)

erikals
05-27-2006, 07:23 PM
Giger, I found this example at the Worley page, http://www.worley.com/media/examples/sas/SasAnimations/chopper.avi
was this the example you refered to?

I guess it is a challenge doing something like that with displacements, but I think (maybe) it could be done. It would probably require some more work to do tweak the displacements compared to Sasquatch though.

hrgiger
05-27-2006, 07:37 PM
Giger, I found this example at the Worley page, http://www.worley.com/media/examples/sas/SasAnimations/chopper.avi
was this the example you refered to?




Yeah, that's the one I was referring to. If results that good could be achieved with displacments, I'd sure like to see it.

Well Larry, we'll just have to disagree as usual.

newtekker04
05-27-2006, 09:46 PM
Alrighty - that's enough. Go to your rooms, both of you.:D

First, Larry's intention was only to offer his assistance to Illusion Maker, not to claim his method was the best, be-all-end-all solution. I hardly think that bashing one another's method is worth anyone's breath. Frankly, I think this is a rather trivial issue to be quarreling over. Just my 2...:rock:

SplineGod
05-27-2006, 10:24 PM
Newtekker, Amen!! :)

Steve,
I dont have a problem with anyone disagreeing with me as long as they can be civil about it. Most of the other ppl here dont seem to have a problem doing that.

hrgiger
05-27-2006, 11:18 PM
Puh-lease Larry, spare me.

I said that a displacement map (not you) causes the grass to look like it's having a seizure.
I made it clear I was talking about the limitations of Saslite and that my comments were not directed at you. I've made it very clear over the last few years since Saslite was introduced my disdain for the plug-in and am quick to point out the substantial differences between saslite and Sasquatch. Some people might like to know what they're missing.

Now your comments:


Apparently youre too dense...


This is just another opportunity for Steve to be Steve again. Whats the point in you continuing to beat a dead horse?


You would think for the extra cash you spent on the full version you could do better....oh well.

Yeah. And I'm the one who's not being civil. :rolleyes:

Sorry I can't walk on enough eggshells for you.

HowardM
05-28-2006, 03:45 AM
lol, in all the time spent bickering you could of EASILY done it with DYNAMICS ;)

SplineGod
05-28-2006, 05:53 AM
Youre talking about in the Full version of sasquatch right? Ive heard that only the full version of capable of doing it in a realistic way... :)

hrgiger
05-28-2006, 07:31 AM
The limitations of Saslite are not as apparent as you might believe.

No, they're pretty apparent when you compare options.

Saslite.....

hrgiger
05-28-2006, 07:32 AM
and then Sasquatch....

hrgiger
05-28-2006, 07:32 AM
Ive heard that only the full version of capable of doing it in a realistic way... :)

Well, at least you can finally admit it.

What a fun thread.:thumbsup:

hrgiger
05-28-2006, 03:13 PM
Yes..... and we've discovered MANY times when using LW that there are nearly always alternative ways of doing something that were originally thought impossible with what we had. Larry (once again) thought outside the box and came up with an alternative. It just happened to be that YOU didn't think it was realistic enough and the method was crap.

Saying that something is not realistic and saying something is crap are two entirely different things. Don't put words into my mouth. Larry was offering an alternative and I was offering another. My problem is with Saslite and its limitations, not with Larry.


You can't stop, can you? I guess you're just one of those people who HAVE to win an argument. Such a shame.

Maybe. Do you want to start with me now?


Perhaps Newtek and Worley will (eventually) bundle the full version of Sasquatch when he is ready to release Sas2 - then he'll get evem more $$ offering a nice incentive upgrade.

Doubtful. I wouldn't be surprised if Newtek came up with a bundle deal if Worley ever comes out with Sas2. Newtek would be better served to come up with their own hair solution and stop offering commericals for commercial plug-ins which is pretty much what Saslite is.

hrgiger
05-28-2006, 05:51 PM
Yes I can see. Your alternative was to BUY Sasquatch full. Larry tried to offer a more realistic alternative to someone who may not have the funds. I suppose Larry should have spent a great deal of time trying to make it look entirely realistic for your benefit. Your initial "seizure comment" was unwarranted and appeared as an attack. And then it went on from there. Perhaps you should rethink how YOU offer criticism.

An alternative is an alternative whether it involves spending cash or not. Perhaps he doesn't have the funds, perhaps he does. Either way, it is still an alternative. My seizure comment was based on what I believe could be achieved with a displacement map, not an attack on Larry although I know he sees it as such and I'm sure you do as well. I'm sure the effect could be improved given much more time and trial and error, I was offering a much easier but admittedly more expensive option. However, I don't think that a displacement map ultimately will give you a realistic motion. If someone would like to prove me wrong, I would love to see it because then I might offer that advice to someone else in the future because I'm well aware that not everyone can afford to buy the full version of Sasquatch. There is nothing wrong with out of the box or workaround thinking, and with 3D software, sometimes that is your only option.
If my oberservation seems harsh to you, then I'm sorry. But if you're going to post work on an online discussion forum, you should be willing to accept whatever feedback comes to you, not just praise and adoration. Once again, I didn't say that it was Larry's abilities that lacked, rather, I mentioned that a displacement map will cause the grass to segment and look like it's having a seizure. I'm sorry that this distinction can't be seen by everyone.




Sure, why not. Though I'm sure you WILL end up having the last word.
Megalodon

Will not.:)

richgrafx
05-29-2006, 08:57 AM
I'm conservative, therefore I think displacement maps, dynamics or sas full would give you nice cg grass. If you want real grass use a camera and film it.

ironlips
05-31-2006, 03:19 AM
I think you guys need to go and smoke some grass and chill out...

SplineGod
05-31-2006, 04:11 AM
Too much grass in this thread already... :)

HowardM
05-31-2006, 04:42 AM
I think you guys need to go and smoke some grass and chill out...

Do I need full Sas for that? ;)

SplineGod
05-31-2006, 04:56 AM
Rofl!

hrgiger
05-31-2006, 10:46 AM
Do I need full Sas for that? ;)

It depends. If you want sort of an "artificial" feeling, then just stick with Saslite.

HowardM
05-31-2006, 10:53 AM
lol my reply was to the smoking grass comment... ;)

SplineGod
05-31-2006, 12:52 PM
Ill bet you can do awesome smoking grass in a minute or so Howard. :)

erikals
05-31-2006, 12:55 PM
(hint-hint) :)

HowardM
05-31-2006, 05:33 PM
hehe what?! who?! huh?!
I plead the 5th!