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deandec
05-18-2006, 05:05 PM
I'm on Vt3 and got a come on to upgrade to VT4 and get VT5 for free when it comes out for $595. What I don't get is whether firewire is going to be the only HD in/out solution for it? I will need HD SDI when doing any HD work and I was wondering if anyone knew whether Newtek has said anything about an updated Toaster HD card. If so, I'd be interested in the cost. If they haven't said anything then I think my money may be better spent getting a BlackMagic card for $1000 and toughing it out using Premiere. Any advice welcome.

Dean

Brian Peterson
05-18-2006, 06:04 PM
Firewire is presently the path Newtek is taking. However with Tricaster HD coming at the end of the year, I doubt it will be the only path taken after that.

billmi
05-18-2006, 06:29 PM
Firewire is presently the path Newtek is taking. However with Tricaster HD coming at the end of the year, I doubt it will be the only path taken after that.

Maybe I am missing something here...

As I understand it, Speed Edit is multiformat/multires and not firewire dependant (nor is firewire hardware even included with it.) As such, should it matter whether you use firewire or an SDI card, or analog capture card to bring in the video? Once you've got it on your HD, why would Speed Edit care how it got there as long as it's been saved in a format for which Speed Edit can read a codec?

Brian Peterson
05-18-2006, 06:57 PM
It wouldn't matter what the video was captured thru if you were using a third pary program/hardware to do it. However to start off with VT5 for upgraders is software only, no hard ware and will only be able to capture HD thru a firewire connection.

If you want to invest in premier and a seperate SDI capture card, that is an option, but a little expensive in my opinion, just for capture.

Lew
05-22-2006, 07:04 AM
So I'm confused also,
Are you saying that VT5 will capture either RTV or VT25 through a seperate Firewire card?

Paul Lara
05-22-2006, 09:08 AM
So I'm confused also,
Are you saying that VT5 will capture either RTV or VT25 through a seperate Firewire card?

No, Lew. VT[5] will continue to use its hardware to capture as it always has.
The above reference to FireWire is how you can INGEST HDV footage into VT[5].

If you have access to HD-SDI hardware and capture those as .avi or m2t or m2p files, then you can drag them into SpeedEDIT and get busy. The VT card is a standard-def device, and as such, cannot capture or play out 1080i clips. It can, however provide real-time SD playback of your HD projects for review.

deandec
05-22-2006, 09:23 AM
This is not very convincing. Am supposed to spend $595 on an upgrade and then not be able to monitor HD in HD? What good is that? Is monitoring HD in SD some kind of WOW feature? You guys should check out those Black Magic cards. They do a **** of a lot for $1000. If I'm working in HD it needs to be real HD the whole way through. VT3 is fine for my SD needs. Except for lack of non-drop frame support!!!! It seems that the hardware side is really slowing down the software side. Software has capabilities that the hardware can't do. Not good. Seems to me it would be smart for Newtek to maybe strike a deal with someone like Black Magic for hardware and concentrate on software. Unfortunately I can't justify spending $$$ on an upgrade when I can put it toward something that can do uncompressed / compressed HD in/out/edit now. I worry about having to work with Premiere or Vegas though. Maybe I'll just give in and get a Mac. Ugh...............

Bobt
05-22-2006, 11:45 AM
I think you are blowing this out of proportion but if what you need is HD video preview on a output monitor then VT5 is not the right answer for you.
But remember most applications convert to edit then render final.
I think the VT5/Speed Edit is beyond all that.
Anywho I think Newteks approach is the best of all worlds at the moment since HDV isnt good enough and HD uncompressed is 120 MB/sec from the raid drive.

Thats 6 RTV streams.

Bob

Brian Peterson
05-22-2006, 02:13 PM
This is not very convincing. Am supposed to spend $595 on an upgrade and then not be able to monitor HD in HD? What good is that? Is monitoring HD in SD some kind of WOW feature? You guys should check out those Black Magic cards. They do a **** of a lot for $1000. If I'm working in HD it needs to be real HD the whole way through.... Maybe I'll just give in and get a Mac.

Okay... well I'll be the first to admit I have no problem ragging on Newtek for existing flaws, but in this case I believe you are wrong. Maybe I'm wrong but I do not believe the Black Magic cards come with Premier Pro 2 for $1000. So you are looking at nearly $2000 to go that route. Same with Mac, a mac, fcp and a BM, another massive investment.

Let's be real here, VEGAs, FCP, Premiere, Edius etc do not have live HD preview, just like VT5 and Speededit. All of them require an additional 3rd party card in most cases to give you live HD viewing on an outboard monitor. So Newtek is just as "convincing" as the competition.

If $595 is too much look around for a vendor offering a discount. I wasn't about to buy VT4 for it's original price and waited till a vendor was offering a sale on it. IF you can't wait go Speededit. I'm torn between these options myself. I don't need the switcher but at the same time don't exactly want to let my vt fall behind, but then I wonder why do i care if it falls behind I don't use or need all those features... So I'll decide on June 29 what to do. :stumped:

Now the way I'm hearing a lot of people are doing to get around the lack of hardware preview in all of these programs is they are dedicating one output of their video card to HD capable computer monitor and watching it there. Most don't even have the ability to send it to a professional monitor for color correction! Thank god we can do that with an sd signal and professional monitor in VT5!

Finally HD has very little benefit on screens smaller than 35". And how many of us have outboard monitors that are larger than 20" let along larger than 35"? Yes I would like to have HD preview live with VT5, but when thought about logically, it is based on desire not on the reality of the situation.

Lew
05-22-2006, 02:19 PM
No, Lew. VT[5] will continue to use its hardware to capture as it always has.
The above reference to FireWire is how you can INGEST HDV footage into VT[5].
.

Well thanks for the partial clear up Paul, however there must be some software in the box to make sense of the 0's and 1's coming in through the firewire. I see cards as inexpensive as 10 bucks - I'm just having a hard time beliving that's all I need.

Let's assume I don't have any experience with DV or Firewire (which should be obvious by now), and now I buy a camera with DV-HDV capability, what else do I need to buy in order to edit HD in SpeedEDIT? I agree with BotT, viewing the footage is not my issue, inputing and outputing HD is.

deandec
05-22-2006, 02:28 PM
I hear you BUT the fact is the $2000 you quote is for a whole new system. Premiere and a Black magic card vs. $6495, the price for a new VT5 which can't input and output HD but of course does a bunch of other stuff. I have a copy of Premiere 5 so really it would be a $200 upgrade for me. So the question for me is to spend $1200 on a new SD/HD in/out compatible system or spend $595 to upgrade to HD compatible software on a system limited by SD only hardware. I certainly don't do a lot of HD right now but would really like to have a system that can do it. And be able to show it to clients. Monitors? If nothing else you can get a good consumer LCD monitor for a couple grand. There are several that do full 1920x1080 res. And if I'm going to shell out the $$$ for a Sony Broadcast HD monitor then I really need a card that can output to it. The money isn't really the point as it is not a lot of money either way. It's what is going to work better going forward.

Paul Lara
05-22-2006, 02:38 PM
Am supposed to spend $595 on an upgrade and then not be able to monitor HD in HD?

I didn't say you would be unable to monitor HD, just not through the VT[5] hose, Dean. You can monitor HD, in full-resolution, and in real-time, on the VT-Vision monitor SpeedEDIT provides on-screen.

deandec
05-22-2006, 02:49 PM
So I understand that I could use SpeedEdit with AVIs and Quicktimes(???) grabbed from say a Black Magic or other card using 3rd party software. Right? A lot of work that I do however is delivered to me as edls. How would I capture something and have it assembled properly in speededit if it's not working directly with the hardware?

deandec
05-22-2006, 02:51 PM
Oh, I also meant to ask if I had a 3rd party card like Black Magic would there be a way for SpeedEdit to play out through it to a monitor or deck?

Paul Lara
05-22-2006, 02:51 PM
Well thanks for the partial clear up Paul, however there must be some software in the box to make sense of the 0's and 1's coming in through the firewire.

Ya huh. It's called SpeedEDIT, which offers a basic capture panel (via FireWire) or a batch capture module (also via FireWire).


I'm just having a hard time beliving that's all I need.

That's ok, Lew. NewTek price/performance does that to a LOT of people. :dance:


[If] I buy a camera with DV-HDV capability, what else do I need to buy in order to edit HD in SpeedEDIT?

Not much...
A computer (dual-core or dual-proc)
A graphics card able to display 1920x1080 resolution
A monitor that handles that graphics resolution (2nd monitor preferable)
A firewire card, if your computer or laptop doesn't already have it.
Sufficient storage space for those larger-than-SD clips

Period.
Fini.

Dario Bajurin
05-22-2006, 02:55 PM
I didn't say you would be unable to monitor HD, just not through the VT[5] hose, Dean. You can monitor HD, in full-resolution, and in real-time, on the VT-Vision monitor SpeedEDIT provides on-screen.

And how you can see interlace video on the computer monitor. I think that this statement is wrong or I am missing something now! Can you Paul expain to us how you can see interlace video and right video color on the computer monitor instead of HD studio-video monitor?

Brian Peterson
05-22-2006, 03:13 PM
You have completely lost me? :stumped:

First of all:

the price for a new VT5 which can't input and output HD

Okay, what???? YES From their announcements SpeedEdit and VT5 will be able to output HD! Where are you getting this? The connection will be thru firewire. Just like all the other NLEs on the market including Premiere, Vegas and FCP, the connection that is default is by firewire. You will be able to import/export HD thru firewire. You just won't be able to view a live signal on an outboard monitor.


So the question for me is to spend $1200 on a new SD/HD in/out compatible system or spend $595 to upgrade to HD compatible software on a system limited by SD only hardware.
Buy a firewire card! I just plugged on I purchased 5 years ago back into my system to use.


There are several that do full 1920x1080 res. And if I'm going to shell out the $$$ for a Sony Broadcast HD monitor then I really need a card that can output to it.
Every professional sony monitor I have looked at has a dvi connection. Ask around here how you spit your signal on the video card and send just the monitor to that and you have you HD live signal to a professional monitor.


I certainly don't do a lot of HD right now but would really like to have a system that can do it.
So what you are saying is that you expect Newtek to stall the development of VT and not go forward after vt5 is issued? Do you even do any HD now? I had two reasons for ripping apart the vt4 upgrade. 1 they ignored the editor which is what i need, 2 I was tired of telling competitors to check it out only to have them whine there was no HD support. even though to this day not one of them have HD or HDV. Really when you finally get around to editing HD in significant amounts how many upgrades do you expect to have gone thru? My thoughts are by the time I'm editing significant amounts of HDV we will be on vt6 and SE2. Maybe even VT7.

Tricaster HD is suppose to ship the end of the year, do you really think that at that point Newtek won't be coming out with HD hardware for VT?

For $595 you get VT upgraded, HD editing capability with frame rate independance and a free copy of speededit. Down the road Newtek I'm sure we will be offered hardware capable of giving preview out to a pro monitor. With Newtek you are all but guarenteed that in the future when upgrades hits that the software will work with any hardware they offer and the VT will not become orphan software. Your other options, Matrox when they switch systems, they switch systems, no upgrade price for you. Pretty much the same with canopus and Lietech. Let's not even mention the support for $$s that is avid. For the apple, well you are relying on hardware issued by 3rd parties, not apple. Newtek has always supported their customer base, even when they abandoned the Amiga for PC there was an upgrade price.

I just don't see your arguement in this 'hardware' issue.

Now if you want to argue features missing from the NLE aspect of VT5, then i'm right there with you. But this arguement, take the dvi connection from your video card and plug it into the sony!

ScorpioProd
05-22-2006, 03:30 PM
And how you can see interlace video on the computer monitor. I think that this statement is wrong or I am missing something now! Can you Paul expain to us how you can see interlace video and right video color on the computer monitor instead of HD studio-video monitor?

Actually, turning fielding on and off in VT-Vision now shows a significant difference, certainly a good enough simulation of interlace for most editing.

But beyond that, no one is telling you you can't watch it on an HD studio monitor. EVERY high-end video card out there nowadays includes a component analog HD output that can go to a "real" monitor.

deandec
05-22-2006, 03:32 PM
Jeez, watch your blood pressure.



You have completely lost me? :stumped:

First of all:


Okay, what???? YES From their announcements SpeedEdit and VT5 will be able to output HD! Where are you getting this? The connection will be thru firewire. Just like all the other NLEs on the market including Premiere, Vegas and FCP, the connection that is default is by firewire. You will be able to import/export HD thru firewire. You just won't be able to view a live signal on an outboard monitor.

As I've been saying that is very important to me.


Buy a firewire card! I just plugged on I purchased 5 years ago back into my system to use.

I don't go in or out using firewire ever. Well, except for some friend's film but on paying jobs it's SDI all the way. The HD I've worked on was captured for me and delivered via disk. When there is an HDCAM deck at the facility I would like to be able to grab from it or record to it.


Every professional sony monitor I have looked at has a dvi connection. Ask around here how you spit your signal on the video card and send just the monitor to that and you have you HD live signal to a professional monitor.

So what you are saying is that you expect Newtek to stall the development of VT and not go forward after vt5 is issued? Do you even do any HD now? I had two reasons for ripping apart the vt4 upgrade. 1 they ignored the editor which is what i need, 2 I was tired of telling competitors to check it out only to have them whine there was no HD support. even though to this day not one of them have HD or HDV. Really when you finally get around to editing HD in significant amounts how many upgrades do you expect to have gone thru? My thoughts are by the time I'm editing significant amounts of HDV we will be on vt6 and SE2. Maybe even VT7.

Tricaster HD is suppose to ship the end of the year, do you really think that at that point Newtek won't be coming out with HD hardware for VT?

For $595 you get VT upgraded, HD editing capability with frame rate independance and a free copy of speededit. Down the road Newtek I'm sure we will be offered hardware capable of giving preview out to a pro monitor. With Newtek you are all but guarenteed that in the future when upgrades hits that the software will work with any hardware they offer and the VT will not become orphan software. Your other options, Matrox when they switch systems, they switch systems, no upgrade price for you. Pretty much the same with canopus and Lietech. Let's not even mention the support for $$s that is avid. For the apple, well you are relying on hardware issued by 3rd parties, not apple. Newtek has always supported their customer base, even when they abandoned the Amiga for PC there was an upgrade price.

I just don't see your arguement in this 'hardware' issue.

My question is when is down the road? MAny vendors already have this functionality. If I'm going to tell clients that I can edit and previews effects in HD I want to be **** sure I can do it. Compressed input / output just doesn't cut it my line of work.

Now if you want to argue features missing from the NLE aspect of VT5, then i'm right there with you. But this arguement, take the dvi connection from your video card and plug it into the sony!


I'm not trying to bash Newtek. I'm having trouble figuring how their product is going to integrate in to my workflow. As I DON'T use firewire for anything but connecting my ipod it seems like it might be a problem for me. Obviously it isn't for you.

deandec
05-22-2006, 03:38 PM
[QUOTE=Brian Peterson]You have completely lost me? :stumped:



Sorry, seems a bunch of what I said got lost in the quoting. My main issue is that I would need HDSDI to use HD. I do effects. We never use compressed footage. SD or HD. HDV would not work just as DV doesn't work for us. Firewire is not an answer. I use VT as an uncompressed SD solution. For that it's been great. I need to move forward with an uncompressed HD solution eventually. Sooner than later.

Brian Peterson
05-22-2006, 03:49 PM
Jeez, watch your blood pressure.

I'm not trying to bash Newtek. I'm having trouble figuring how their product is going to integrate in to my workflow. As I DON'T use firewire for anything but connecting my ipod it seems like it might be a problem for me. Obviously it isn't for you.

Blood pressure is fine.

I think you may want to research the video equipment side of this equation. Every HDV deck I have looked at uses firewire. The Panasonic P2 cards have or will have a card reader that fits in one of the computer bays, no firewire. The new sony format of recording to a blue ray disc is suppose to come out with a computer bay drive for reading and burning them, no firewire again... Every full resolution HD solution I've looked at offers a firewire option on the play decks... Oh and it looks like hard drives are going to become the capture tech of preferance on most HD solutions, so no firewire but network cable.

Me I use an ADJ230 dvc pro deck with analog out, no firewire.

deandec
05-22-2006, 03:57 PM
Blood pressure is fine.

I think you may want to research the video equipment side of this equation. Every HDV deck I have looked at uses firewire.


The Sony HDWM2000 is the deck I've used lately. No firewire. Got footage in using an Avid DS or whatever. In the future I really want to be able to do that on my own system. We've done a lot of HD work. Just haven't dealt directly with the tapes. All our software is res. independent. The problem for me is input/output. And I can't use firewire to do it. I wish it were that easy..........

Dario Bajurin
05-22-2006, 04:40 PM
Thanx Eugene,

if it will be truth that is the solution for video preview. Do you know any SDI graphics video card cheaper than N-vidia quadro witch has SDI output. And does anybody from Newtek test VT5 with something like this?

Btw, to Brian Peterson please: don't talk of something you don't know what it is. You don't even know the difference between HD and HDV. Right now we are talk about HD and we want to know what how to incorporate VT5 to our workflows. You are still on HDV and will be probably there forever but please leave us to talk with Paul and Eugene because they know something and willing to help.

deandec
05-22-2006, 05:07 PM
I wouldn't depend on a graphics card for dependable broadcast video output. To me that is not a professional solution. The 4500 does look pretty nice and I bet it rocks for playing Quake but at $1700+ it's significantly more than cards from Black Magic or Aja.

Brian Peterson
05-22-2006, 05:14 PM
Btw, to Brian Peterson please: don't talk of something you don't know what it is.

you know that goes two ways, a little more definition of exactly what is being done would be tremendously helpful when asking a question. i.e. I had no idea what was being talked about here was effects and not standard ever day HD footage.


You don't even know the difference between HD and HDV.

There is a difference? My, I didn't know that. Wow last I looked HD was a resolution of 1080 and depending on the flavor HDV is down to 700 somwhere. Isn't that the same? Sure looks like it to me. yah there is no difference there. And is 4:2:2 the same as 4:1:1?:twak: :twak:


Right now we are talk about HD and we want to know what how to incorporate VT5 to our workflows.
Oh and if you talk to the manufacturers, HDV is HD, anything that is higher resolution that 720x480 is considered HD by the people who make the equipment that produces it.


You are still on HDV and will be probably there forever but please leave us to talk with Paul and Eugene because they know something and willing to help.

THen here is an idea, so no one who don't know crap, yet has said exactly what paul said, firewire is presently the only option besides 3rd party, post in your header "we only want to talk to paul and eugene". I'll not waste my valuable time with people who can't hit the search key.

ScorpioProd
05-22-2006, 07:32 PM
Hey, hey, let's all be nice and get along here. Everyone is just trying to help.

Just to clarify, I'm not suggesting using a "normal" graphics card for HD output that you will actually record, but just for preview capability on a "real" monitor.

As has been stated by Newtek, SpeedEDIT internally can handle anything, but for input and output, the only form they will be supporting initially is via firewire. This can include a number of formats that use firewire for transport, such as HDV, DVC PRO HD (P2 or tape), and XDCAM HD. Also, if you have a format that simply plugs into the computer and the computer can see the files to read/write from it, then that's fine, too.

SpeedEDIT is purely a software product, period. If you have other hardware to bring in files and to send out files, then I would say the odds are pretty good that you could use SpeedEDIT for the editing part, as long as you have another method for getting the files in and out of the computer.

In the future will SpeedEDIT support other I/O methods, like third-party hardware, directly? Maybe, but remember, Newtek will have their own I/O hardware solutions coming out probably end of this year or by next NAB.

Everything is an evolutionary process, and SpeedEDIT is the engine to let us edit any format right now, the hardware will come later. I'd hate to see the editing software that can work for many of us held up by hardware. It won't be, that's why SpeedEDIT is a stand-alone product.

As for VT[5], as Newtek has stated, that will have SpeedEDIT and it's HD capable editing in it, but the I/O is SD, using the normal VT hardware. This will let it do all the SD as in the past, and allow real-time SD output of HD in editing, which can be useful in a number of situations.

A future product shown by Newtek is the TriCaster HD, which like I said, I would expect by next NAB, and probably a VT version, too, but I'm just speculating.

Thing is, as always, if there's something you need right now, find it and buy it and make money. :)

nevmoor
05-23-2006, 09:55 PM
Just to add my two cents. Most systems I have looked at dont let you actually handle the HD/HDV footage on the timeline, but instead make you use some intermediate codec. then conform your edit later. From what i'm seeing aruond the forums( confirm Paul or somebody) is that SpeedEdit uses the "raw" footage right on the timeline, drag and drop. I know this isn't the end all, but isnt that a clue as to the next level??

Paul Lara
05-24-2006, 07:22 AM
From what i'm seeing aruond the forums( confirm Paul or somebody) is that SpeedEdit uses the "raw" footage right on the timeline, drag and drop.

That would be correct.

"We doan' neeeed no steeeenkin' proxies"

chribba
05-24-2006, 08:20 AM
SpeedEdit uses the "raw" footage right on the timeline, drag and drop


That would be correct.

"We doan' neeeed no steeeenkin' proxies"


Is it possible to "save/export/render" out a Panasonic P2 DIF file in its native form then?

chribba

Paul Lara
05-24-2006, 10:20 AM
Is it possible to "save/export/render" out a Panasonic P2 DIF file in its native form?

Not sure.

chribba
05-24-2006, 02:36 PM
Not sure.

It would be great if you could look it up....

You got PM...

Chribba

woollard
05-28-2006, 08:44 PM
You can monitor HD, in full-resolution, and in real-time, on the VT-Vision monitor SpeedEDIT provides on-screen.

Paul

Would my 2.8 dual Xeon 533 FSB with nVidia 6800 GT allow me to preview HDV in real time (i.e. full 29.97 fps) via VT-Vision if it's stretched to the max on a 1920x1200 Dell 24" LCD monitor?

Bobt
05-29-2006, 07:51 AM
I am not Paul but until the app is closer I dont think it would be good for them to answer. I can understand why you would want them to.
But its just not prudent. Its still in development.
That said, from the rumors I have heard I think your machine will be OK but will be completly dependant on the lots of variables. Is that card PCI-E or is it AGP. PCI-E is much faster and might be what you need to bang out all those bits in time but I am talking without any knowledge of the challenges they have had to face in getting this to operate.

Bob

Paul Lara
05-29-2006, 09:20 PM
A 533 front-side bus may work, but an 800 Mhz fsb is suggested.

ted
05-29-2006, 11:13 PM
Paul, on a side note, thanks for poping in lately.
We all understand why NewTek can't talk specifics, but having you guys chime in on the various rumors, specualtion and concerns is helping us greatly.
Thanks for whatever you can do to keep our anxiety under control! :thumbsup:

ScorpioProd
05-30-2006, 01:20 AM
F.U.D. is the enemy!

Paul Lara
05-30-2006, 08:34 AM
Let's remember we're talking about a product that is not yet out the door.
Theorizing about what it may and may not do is academic if you don't have it to edit with, eh?