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randomnumbers
05-08-2006, 05:40 PM
So having read through the recent thread talking about the perils of losing/breaking your dongle and the thread about the pirated lw9beta that is supposedly doing the rounds I have to wonder the following..

..Am I allowed, as a licensed LW user, to write my own dongle subversion code, so I need not worry about losing/damaging/leaving my dongle in the wrong city?

I spend the majority of my life commuting between two cities and more than once I have left my dongle in the wrong town and been unable to work all weekend. So if I can figure out a way to circumvent the dongle, is that legit?

stevecullum
05-08-2006, 05:49 PM
I would say not, as copyright infrigment normally extends to the altering of the program, which your piece of code would effectivly do.

ShawnStovall
05-08-2006, 05:49 PM
Could you possibly oder another dongle(with the same code)from NewTek?

randomnumbers
05-08-2006, 06:24 PM
I would say not, as copyright infrigment normally extends to the altering of the program, which your piece of code would effectivly do.

Not as such. I wouldn't as such be altering the code I am licensed to use, rather writing new code to emulate the dongle.


Could you possibly oder another dongle(with the same code)from NewTek?

Yeah probably. But it is the whole, yet another peripheral sticking out of my laptop syndrome that I am trying to avoid.

newtekker04
05-08-2006, 06:25 PM
Could you possibly oder another dongle(with the same code)from NewTek?

Yes, you can get another dongle from Newtek, but apparently, that's equivalent to buying a new license. I read another thread that said the cost of a replacement dongle is $260. As far as I'm concerned, that's an obsurd price to have to pay. Even if Newtek offered one free replacement or just lowered the cost. I think dongles are good security devices, but as soon as you loose it or bust it, your royally screwed.


..Am I allowed, as a licensed LW user, to write my own dongle subversion code, so I need not worry about losing/damaging/leaving my dongle in the wrong city?

I highly doubt this would be a legal alternative. However, I think it's just as legal as having Newtek gouge customers for a new license/dongle when they have already forked over the cash for one. If, God forbid, I loose or break my dongle, I would likely look for some alternative to purchasing another one.

Mr_Bester
05-08-2006, 06:27 PM
It is illegal. That should be covered in the license under reverse engineering. Also, the dongle replacement on last check was $99 US. Though that may have changed.
Dug

Captain Obvious
05-08-2006, 06:50 PM
Where do you live? If you live in a nation with sensible laws, it's perfectly legal. If you live in something like the US, with screwed up laws, it's not legal.

Celshader
05-08-2006, 06:59 PM
I read another thread that said the cost of a replacement dongle is $260. As far as I'm concerned, that's an obsurd price to have to pay.

Someone told me a replacement for a lost dongle is about $200 or so, but if your dongle dies or breaks it's much, much cheaper to replace, since you can mail them the broken dongle. I heard a replacement for a broken dongle is only about $35 or something.

cc3d
05-08-2006, 07:37 PM
Where do you live? If you live in a nation with sensible laws, it's perfectly legal. If you live in something like the US, with screwed up laws, it's not legal.

Yea, I am pretty sure that the laws in China will allow you to do what you want with your software, but if I'm wrong, they'll imprison you forever without a trial. Oh, well. Back to the the US's stupid laws.

Captain Obvious
05-08-2006, 08:32 PM
Yea, I am pretty sure that the laws in China will allow you to do what you want with your software, but if I'm wrong, they'll imprison you forever without a trial. Oh, well. Back to the the US's stupid laws.
China does not have sensible laws.

cc3d
05-08-2006, 08:34 PM
China does not have sensible laws.

ya think?

shermanlu
05-08-2006, 08:51 PM
China does not have sensible laws.
No.no..no....they do have sensible laws...however, it depends on the "relationships"or "something" in your pocket....:devil:

Signal to Noise
05-08-2006, 09:01 PM
In China you could turn your dongle into a nuclear weapon if you wanted to. ;)

Liberator
05-09-2006, 01:29 AM
Someone told me a replacement for a lost dongle is about $200 or so, but if your dongle dies or breaks it's much, much cheaper to replace, since you can mail them the broken dongle. I heard a replacement for a broken dongle is only about $35 or something.

When I sent back the shattered remains of my Dongle to Newtek-Europe, it cost me nothing except the price of the envelope and stamp to send it there.:)

Captain Obvious
05-09-2006, 05:31 AM
ya think?
You didn't happen to notice my forum name, did you? :)

Chuck
05-09-2006, 09:04 AM
It isn't legal to try to reverse engineer any part of the software including the copy protection, nor to attempt to defeat the copy protection in any way. There is simply no such thing as "legally cracking" software.

As mentioned above, failed or broken dongles are replaced at no cost other than the cost of shipping the dead dongle to NewTek. We can cross-ship on request.

Dongles that are stolen or destroyed through no fault of the owner are replaced at a minimal charge ($35, IIRC) - basically we just need a police or fire report, etc., to process this.

Dongles that are mislaid we do charge a somewhat higher fee to replace.

The purpose of dongle protection is just to insure that a customer is limited to using only the number of licenses they have actually purchased. There is no other purpose, but the purpose is vitally important in demonstrating NewTek's intent to protect copyright. We know that any form of protection is going to represent some amount of inconvenience to the customer, but the dongle does offer more flexibility to the customer than many other means of protection, primarily the ability to switch systems on which the customer is using the product pretty much at will without requiring customer services intervention, as many other protection schemes would. With the dongle, it is also not necessary to detect and block installations on multiple machines, as some other protection schemes do.

People and their preferences are diverse so we do understand that some folks will prefer other schemes to the dongle; but for perspective, if we were using one of the other schemes, there would be just as many folks who would prefer something else instead.

randomnumbers
05-09-2006, 09:26 AM
Cheers for the definitive response, Chuck!
Now, about that combi dongle/2 gig memory stick....

Martin Adams
05-09-2006, 10:05 AM
People and their preferences are diverse so we do understand that some folks will prefer other schemes to the dongle; but for perspective, if we were using one of the other schemes, there would be just as many folks who would prefer something else instead.

Do both? Well, having a dongle is very flexible. I just hope my personal cover insurance covers my LW dongle.

Mr_Bester
05-09-2006, 10:56 AM
Do both? Well, having a dongle is very flexible. I just hope my personal cover insurance covers my LW dongle.
A lot of people add a rider to their home owners or renters insurance for software, so for .13 US per year/per $100 it's not too bad.
Dug

Edit: I currently have the replacement value of a full lightwave license and my adobe stuff. So for about $2 a year, if anything happens to my software, computer or dongle, my homeowners policy covers it without any deductible.

JeffRutan
05-09-2006, 11:17 AM
As a software developer myself for the last 23 years, I take licensing very seriously and I do not wish to be a software pirate. But I do wish to be able to use the software I have paid for in any way that works well for me- on any of machine and even more than one at once if I want to tweak renders on one and model on another at the same time.

I guess since I already paid NewTek for LW 8.5/9.0 then I have no more leverage. I am sure they don't care if I use or like the product as long as they have my money. I just wanted to voice my general dislike of being inconvenienced and treated like a criminal as a legitimate and law-abiding user. I am now using LW and enjoying using it, but I am also looking at other competing packages and more liberal licensing policies are a major attraction. My only minor leverage with NewTek is that I may not opt to buy their next upgrade. I was just hoping NewTek may reconsider how they chose to enforce their license knowing that not everyone is perfectly happy with the dongle.

Now if the dongle also contained all of the LW programs, content, upgrades, patches and third-party plug-ins as well as space for my working files, and I could run from the dongle on any machine, then we would really have something! I would certainly pay an extra $100 USD to get a dongle like that! On the other hand, maybe that would make it a much more attractive item to steal?

-Jeff

Lightwolf
05-09-2006, 11:36 AM
Now, about that combi dongle/2 gig memory stick....
Yes and know... flash memory only has a limited life cycle, so you might end up with a dud that is just a normal dongle with non-functional memory after a couple of years.

Cheers,
Mike

JeffRutan
05-09-2006, 12:15 PM
After a couple of years I expect to get a fresh new one with my next paid upgrade!
-Jeff

mrunion
05-09-2006, 01:15 PM
As a software developer myself for the last 23 years,...[omitted]...any of machine and even more than one at once if I want to tweak renders on one and model on another at the same time...

-Jeff

As a software developer for 22 years myself, I'm sure you understand that you LICENSED the use of ONE COPY at a time -- not one copy on any machine you want, and running them at the same time. *If* the license were different, then you'd be good to go. But NewTek's licenses stated running ONE copy at a time. If you circumvent that then YOU ARE breaking the law -- whether or not you're a software developer.

And if you know of "other software" with more liberal protection shcemes for the same price range, then that's good. Right now with Lightwave you'd be limited to using ScreamerNet to render while you continue to tweak. Or get FPrime.

pauland
05-09-2006, 01:45 PM
Cheers for the definitive response, Chuck!
Now, about that combi dongle/2 gig memory stick....

It would only make things worse for you. Not only would your dongle be in the wrong town, your files would be as well..

trick
05-09-2006, 02:01 PM
...but I am also looking at other competing packages and more liberal licensing policies are a major attraction...

Please show me to more liberal ones (and don't call Modo since they will introduce a new protection probably very soon). I have used quite a lot 3D packages in the last 15 years and I still like dongle protection the best. If your PC dies in the middle of the weekend and you still have a deadline on monday there is NO alternative (not from Adobe, Autodesk, Macromedia, SoftImage, etc...except for C4D I think). Even buying a spare license stands in no relation to the money and/or client you could lose.

randomnumbers
05-09-2006, 04:32 PM
@pauland: you're not wrong!

I finally nailed where my dislike for the dongle lies.
I'm clumsy and I constantly lose and break things.

I think I have the solution... Embed the dongle inside a house brick.

cc3d
05-09-2006, 05:26 PM
oops, I missed the sarcasm. Norticed your tag, didn't realize it was your posting theme also. :agree:

Bog
05-09-2006, 06:31 PM
After both experiences:

1) Broken dongle.

I emailed NewTek Europe saying "Wahhh! Dead dongle! Got a job on! Need new dongle stat!"

They told me the faster I stopped whining and emailed them the dongle, the sooner I'd have a new one. It was as fast as post can be, and they emailed all the 3rd party plugin providers who'd sold me software, confirming that my new dongle ID was a replacement and authorsing new numbers.

2) Stolen dongle.

I phoned NewTek Europe hung over, and in tears after the theft, and fearing for my life that I'd have to fork out a whole cost of a new licence, whined that I had a Metropolitan Police "Seven Shots for the Price of One" crime number. I was calmed down and made to laugh, and charged the hardware price of a new dongle - about 50 euros, IIRC. "Bugger all", in other words, and had it as fast as Instance 1.

So. Nobody has any excuse to want to crack LightWave. As a legitimate user, they treat you like gold. Why would I want to treat them like gold's antithesis? (no, not lead. The brown one.)

Bog
05-09-2006, 06:34 PM
I am sure they don't care if I use or like the product as long as they have my money.

Jeff, that simply isn't true. I've always been treated like a VIP every time I've contacted NewTek, who have put up with my whinging and moaning about things for a long, long time. The link in my .sig is a very new thing, dating back from about last December - before that, I was just "Joe Schmoe User" to them, but they always had time to talk about my probs and troubs and to try to sort them as fast as they can. In my experience, every registered LightWave user is a Very Important Person to NewTek.

GandB
05-09-2006, 06:58 PM
Looks like I'll have to make somekind of a "dongle cabinet" when I eventually buy Lightwave. So this 'dongle' is something like a memory stick (by looks, I mean)?

-Keith

Ade
05-09-2006, 07:02 PM
They need to loose the dongle its just plain annoying.

newtekker04
05-09-2006, 10:14 PM
Hey, I guess I've learned something from this thread. I'm glad to know Newtek stands behind the dongle. I had formed a bad impression about the replacement policy when I read another thread about the price of replacing one. My comments earlier might have been a little rash. The dongle is a great security device, and, not meaning to sound like a duschbag, but people just need to be more cautious about their dongle(s). However, as others have mentioned, and I do agree on this, a dongle is just another annoying peripheral sticking out of your machine. Just my thoughts...:D

mattclary
05-10-2006, 06:08 AM
I want to tweak renders on one and model on another at the same time.


You KNOW, an argument could be made that LightWave is a special case due to it's... duality.

It could be reasoned that modeling on one machine and rendering on another was using half a license on one machine and half a license on the second... :stumped:

pixelinfected
05-10-2006, 06:32 AM
dongle is best solution to protect your software, it could be moved from a computer to another without problem, every other kind of protection is not useful or bad thing for correct user.
like a told in another forum, other form of prection like computer license related is bad thing, i think to zbrush,maya, premiere, photoshop that lock on lan card number and if you change something (like in my notebook when i remove pcmcia firewire), all software must be re authorize, that force me to contact all software house every time i remove and put again the pcmcia, that mean i must change with another card that i can leave in pcmcia slot, i can put and remove firewire cable only....
dongle is the best, everywhere i'am, i have my dongle with lw and my plugin locked to it, my dfx license, and more...

dlwaters
05-10-2006, 09:29 AM
Looks like I'll have to make somekind of a "dongle cabinet" when I eventually buy Lightwave. So this 'dongle' is something like a memory stick (by looks, I mean)?

-Keith

Yep. Looks like a small memory stick. It is actually smaller than any of my memory sticks. Mine's even a cool shade of purple! Ironically, considering China's lack of respect for copyright laws, the dongle is *made* in China! ;-)

My only request for future dongles would be a titanium case to carry it around in. Right now I am worried that pocket lint or the point of a stray pen-point is going to climb into the connector while it's in my pocket and disable it at the worst possible moment. NewTek ... any chance you can hand out free dongle-condoms? :rolleyes:

Practice safe dongle!

DL

hunter
05-10-2006, 10:20 AM
You should just stop playing with your dongle. It reduces the risk of injury. ;D
Seriously, I'm surprised NT let this thread go on.

colkai
05-10-2006, 11:17 AM
Nothing wrong with playing with your dongle providing your a consenting adult. :p ...ohh, is that not what you meant about the thread keeping going? ;)

cresshead
05-10-2006, 03:02 PM
and if you think nothing happens to those who use/sell prirated software...
http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/060509/sftu076.html?.v=59

Captain Obvious
05-10-2006, 07:43 PM
and if you think nothing happens to those who use/sell prirated software...
http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/060509/sftu076.html?.v=59
The guy supposedly sold $1,000,000 worth of pirated Autodesk products! Who the heck pays good money for pirated software? There ought to be laws against being that stupid.

Chrysalis
06-02-2006, 08:55 AM
My peeled onion is that "1984" passed 22 years ago! Catch up.

The court system is predicated upon the management of economics. (duh) Do you think lawyers become such for the joy of listening to everyone whine or because they want the $$$? I'm reminded of an old joke about a lawyer who moved into a small lumbering village and did pretty well for himself. Then, one day another lawyer moved into the same village and they both got rich! Over time, the people who are able to pay the fees (eg $1+ per page of a court transcript rather than $19.95 for 300,00 pages in PDF on disk) win the cases. One example; all of the cases dealing with an artist's failure to protect his intellectual property. If they do not do EVERYTHING a sometimes intelligent and altruistic judge thinks they should have done to protect themselves from someone else's crimal intent then the victim gets blamed, loses what could be a lot of $$$$ (can you say Shanghaied), forfeits their right to future protection and probably winds up paying for the joyful experience of getting bent, robbed, ostracised and contributing to a judge's political scrapbook! NewTek is simply attempting to protect its own butt!

> Remember, Economics is the science of greed!
more later.

mattclary
06-02-2006, 09:03 AM
Wow, Chrysalis, that was a real winner of a first post. ;)

Chrysalis
06-02-2006, 10:49 AM
More stinky vegetables!

I do however believe that NewTek (and others in the industry) is going at least a little too far. They are or could very easily become a big brother to monitor our use of digital technology. ( :devil: )

My perception of the copyright protection measures is that it exists to A) protect the creator when in front of a technologically stupid judge B) to keep others from using their product to harvest the green. I fully agree that businesses with non-family "employees" should be required to pay for additional licenses. The dang things are tax deductable business expenses anyway! It also looks good as a sales point to say that they have *x*# certified workstations.

The problem of tyranny begins to raise its multi-faceted head when those same protections are constructed to eliminate the possibility of individuality. Think of a law which says everyone MUST drive a black car. It would be despotic! It appears that software companies want us all to drive the same software. Sure we can chose between one maker and another, fluffy dice or squished tree - but we are still ostracized if we try to personalize the vehicle.

SO WHAT if someone writes code to facilitate a complex render on one machine while working on a wireframe construct with another? Isn't that at least similar to having multi-chip parallel operations technology within a small room (aka tower case)? Two towers versus two chips both working in parallel -- what about two monitors --- what about six monitors being viewed by both artists, directors and a couple test end-users? At what point does the licensing crap become stinky? At what point do they start coming to our homes for unwarranted inspections in the name of doing everything they can to protect their copyright? Failure to open the door = negation of contract? Mandate of a key to our computer? Hello, BIG BROTHER! --- (what’s next? --- this artwork was made using Lightwave 3D version 9.9.0023.4.... which required 34.8973 hours to complete the project......) INSANE!

I propose that NewTek (who treats its valuable customers like gold) provide explicit written permission for users to: A) have the software installed on more than one system when and only when that person (or their marital family) is using it B) develop in-house workflow enhancing code to modify the core aspects of the LW program without getting it licensed (to protect the modification as a trade secret) as long as that modification is not used in system resales. In other words - users would be allowed to use the software in any way which serves them best without making direct revenues from reselling modified code or allowing multiple users to work with the same disk at the same time.

(I think the relevant terms are: CUSTOMER SATISFACTION, FLEXIBILITY, REPEAT SALES and maybe POSITIVE WORD OF MOUTH.)

The reference to the "marital family" is an attempt to comply with the sad legal expectation that in most states EVERYTHING one person brings into a marital family is equally owned and usable by ALL members of that family. I am a sole proprietor of a small graphics studio with no employees. My wife and kids, even when they do help out (rare :) ), are not legally considered employees since they have direct benefit of the enterprise and somewhat own the enterprise under common family law. If my marriage were to dissolve, she would get the house, vehicles, at least half of the business, computers and software regardless of how much I spent on them or what any manufacturer thinks. The laws appear to conflict, yet property law gets trumped by divorce court. Therefore, selling a system to one user for either personal or small business use actually becomes a sale to multiple users if that person has a family. Unless, the software manufacturer starts to defend itself in every divorce case which involves software; any attempt to "fully protect" their copyright will be less than lip service. Back to BIG BROTHER!

Sticky, but anyone with an ex-wife will attest that at the moment of a divorce - one realizes that the man was actually spending his life renting a gift he bought for her anyway.

more next letter

mattclary
06-02-2006, 11:17 AM
Well, you are two for two! :screwy:

Chrysalis
06-02-2006, 11:35 AM
The permissions I have outlined would actually be beneficial to LW. Maya and other programs are sucking a lot of the market share. “Lord of the Rings” and the subsequent coverage of the “award winning Maya” had to be **** for LW3D. NewTek could reclaim some of its market share by continuing its standard development track, but maybe an expansion of philosophy would be better.

A publishing philosophy is similar to that espoused by users of Linux, however the bills would still get paid, the software would be better and everyone who could be taught to understand LW3D’s easy interface would be a potential customer. Did I use the word EVERYONE?

I’m not just talkin’ graphics geeks and Marvin Martians now Toto! :beerchug:

In this scenario, the company would contact registered users and actually encourage task specific development. They are already doing so with plug-ins. Simply pull the head out and expand the program to include any code written for the software regardless of size or function. Improvements to core code as well.

“Hey Joe, you’re doing great things with fur – could you write a few lines to improve our code for the bending of loose ends....”

“Hey Mary, you just won an Academy for making that guy’s lip twitch – could we use your code?”

“Dude, your work for forensic crime scene investigation is a HUGE asset to humanity – would you write some code for us so that our modeling engine can play a part in getting innocent men off of death row – huh, would ya huh huh?” <tongue should be wagging like a bull dog’s at a *itch fight!>

The endeavor would not need to be pro bono. Marketing could change slightly to focus upon the technical developers who are not part of the NewTek in-house team. Sadly, they are usually as important as the artist (NEVER better! ha ha :neener:) Marketing would continue to showcase the artistic effects produced with the LW3D technology.

“You saw Mary’s twitching lip on XYZ: the return of the beginning return episode #9 redux director’s cut part B unrated --- now you can do the same thing with our new upgrade..... here’s how Morphy Mort used it....”

“Lightwave 3D Technology used to put Mass Murderer Cranial BM (aka *hit head) behind bars...”

The contributors would be compensated in two ways. First, they might become notorious as a worthy programmer (big time resume cudos) Second, perhaps they could be paid a small three or four dollar royalty fee on the first several years of sales. That’s actually very similar to the amount received by novel writers. Use the same or similar royalty structures for software code yet scale for the amount of code written. Writers of short stories get paid a heck of a lot less than authors of novels.

NewTek as a corporate entity would benefit in multiple ways.
First, they could stop spending money trying to “protect” something which cannot really be protected in a democracy anyway.
Second, their marketing strategies would multiply their audience base. More exposure results in more sales. Happy people free to decide also results in more sales.
Third, they would be less likely to offend users who are already finding it difficult to choose between LW3D and Maya etc.
Fourth, acting as a publisher of other people’s code would ensure a market presence. No one is doing it! Linux is more for programmers. Users want the Linux flexibility without its rigor. (I hope the oxymoron makes sense. I’m sure it does to Linux users.) Someone will make a lot of money and change society by giving it to them.
Fifth, somebody at some time in the future will begin to stein (as in Frankenstein’s stitches) the many lines of code and subroutines into a streamlined product which can perform any task the user can conceptualize. Whoever does it will probably get rich!
Sixth, the public relations possibilities are enough to cause any board member to have a brain fart! :gotpics:

We the users would benefit in many ways as well.
First, we could stop spending our time writing about issues such as this. Most of us do so because we see (on some level) that a failure to respond to a bull*hit position is usually perceived as an agreement with it.
Second, a lot of us would develop software for our new code publisher.

we be happy happy people! well, not as happy as a dog on an ankle, but happy none the less! :dance: :alien: :dance:

Third, LW3D would fail to go extinct due to MAYAFLUENZA. (as in Maya flu in za room and my job flu out with it!)
Fourth, the software humanity uses would become streamlined, multifaceted and just plain better. Why have five or six programs which use the same mathematics for different applications? Streamline, keep the calculations, increase velocity, decrease memory waste and give the user the freedom to select application. The editing of crappy code documentation would be a huge asset in its own right!
Fifth, improved technology might actually help government help us when “we the people” need it to.
Sixth, improved technology might actually help us prevent ourselves from getting “inked out” by the government we love sooooo well! I can think of no better example than the failure to adopt a PDF construct for America’s judicial record system.

In closing
I know my statements will only be paid with snickers and shoelaces. Maybe some of us who are truly ticked off and want to do something important should discuss a way to unite and create at least some of the technology I’ve discussed. Success by one small group will get attention – suddenly everyone will be doing it – suddenly the multiplicity with result in accomplishment. UTOPIA :bangwall:

Thanks
you can breathe now – I know I need to get my wind back!
Chrysalis

<note – a chrysalis is a place of change – ugly caterpillar to beautiful butterfly, a home, a book or even one’s own empty head.>

PS --- I CREATED THE TERM STEINING - TO STEIN as in to splice together --- ITS MINE MINE MINE! DON'T YOU DARE USE IT WITHOUT MY EXPRESS WRITTEN PERMISSION - in triplicate - OR I WILL COME TO YOUR HOUSE WITH MY BIG BROTHER - a 36" motherboard from a junk pc (yes you may pick) - AND SPANK YOU UNTIL YOUR SPAM HURTS!

pauland
06-02-2006, 11:38 AM
Three posts - yet it feels like 300 already..

.. have a break and model something!

Chrysalis
06-02-2006, 11:45 AM
That's just about the same way my wife tells me to shut up. Did I mention the kids?

mattclary
06-02-2006, 12:15 PM
Did I mention the kids?

Dude, is there anything you DIDN'T mention?

Chrysalis
06-02-2006, 12:21 PM
I am a man of few words until I open my mouth

mattclary
06-02-2006, 12:26 PM
Or get a keyboard in front of you. ;)

Chrysalis
06-02-2006, 12:31 PM
a=b

what do you think of my comments?

pauland
06-02-2006, 01:18 PM
I am a man of few words until I open my mouth

LOL you're hardly alone in that respect.

Never has so much been written, by so few and left unread by so many..

Chrysalis
06-02-2006, 07:07 PM
Now that I've had some time to think a little more about this security issue - I have another point to make.

Didn't the USSC state a few years ago that anyone purchasing a product (even if it is licensed as copyrighted material) has the right to make copies of it for "their own private use?" Much to the chagrin of Hollywood, many of us have copied our VHS movies onto a DVD which we place into a personal archive and use at our leisure. No copyright violation. No crime. Even when a person watches a movie in the living room and their children watch a copy of the same movie in their play room!

If the US Supreme Court has stated that a person has a right to make multiple copies of intellectual media for their own private use AND someone attempts to prevent us from exercising our RIGHTS --- isn't the person or company doing so actually committing a crime? Additionally, there are some circumstances in which we have the right to use parts of an intellectual property WITHOUT the creators ' permission. Satire, academic research, journalism are three which come to mind. Why doesn't the software industry feel it worthy to comply with USSC ruling?

I don't think its been tested, but failing to see the difference between an encoded movie and software code - one could probably survive any lawsuit concerning the private use of code on more than one computer at a time. The defendant would simply need the money to defend themselves.

Dinner's ready - later

Chrysalis
06-04-2006, 04:38 PM
..Am I allowed, as a licensed LW user, to write my own dongle subversion code, so I need not worry about losing/damaging/leaving my dongle in the wrong city? --- So if I can figure out a way to circumvent the dongle, is that legit?

PLEASE respond and politely tell me if I'm wrong. Some issues should be debated.

I write yet another diatribe because this is such an important issue to us all. The invention of the modern computer changed our species and we can never revert to what we were. Software is part of everything we do. We MUST be concerned about who controls it because they (either the industry or the user) are the ones who control how we live our lives.

First, as I alluded to above, I personally (not being a judge or lawyer <yet>) think that the USSC has already ruled that a change of character for an IP from one format (VHS) to another (DVD) does not inherently violate the law. Each format modifies and duplicates the underlying "code technology." Based upon that precedent, a modification to an underlying code structure for software IP should not in and of itself be a violation of law. However, modifications to the code with the intent for unauthorized resale would be similar to making a copy of a movie so that someone could sell tickets. Doing so would (in the US at least) be considered theft. :thumbsup:

Allowing two employees to use the same single license would be a crime as well because it is a special circumstance. The two employees would have the sole function of advancing the business enterprise. By analogy, they would be paying with their time to watch a movie. :thumbsdow

Second, The absent minded user may not be discriminated against. It is a reasonable expectation of the human condition that we WILL forget and misplace small items. Anyone charging more for a "misplaced" item than a "broken" item would have to prove that they were not discriminating against the absent minded user. Since time is money, the manufacturer would also have to prove that it takes an equal amount of time to replace a broken dongle as it does a lost one. The issue would actually be whether or not the fairness in leasing laws which all real estate organizations must obey are germane to the software industry. Are we leasing software code or buying it? If leasing - the leasor cannot and must prove they are not discriminating against any leasing group. If it is personal property then we can do whatever we want with it.

Is Newtek discriminating against the absent minded by charging us more (time or $$$) for a replacement than someone who breaks their dongle? :hammer:

Think of what would happen if an aircraft were in an accident and one of the manufacturers implied that the airline could not have a replacement for *x*# weeks as punishment for their stupidity. The lawsuit would be filed before the echo died! The manufacturer would be required to pay restitution. The manufacturer would be required to replace the broken object with as much velocity as they would for someone else. The manufacturer would be required to charge the same amount for replacement as they would anyone else. DISCRIMINATION IS ILLEGAL

Wasn't there a recent case in which the court declared that the policies of a major video renting chain were discriminatory and ordered them to repay all of the overdue charges they had assesed during the company's existence? Didn't the settlement, bad publicity and legal fees cause that company to file bankruptcy?:thumbsdow

Third, we the users have an equal right to economic gain from the property we purchase as do those who create the property. The basis for the above aviation lawsuit would be two fold. First, discrimination and second, that the manufacturer were preventing the airline from the right to conduct business. The employees would sue over lost wages and the company would sue over lost sales revenue. Courts expect businesses to take measures to lessen the possibility of harm to our employees (customers). Shouldn't we fulfill that expectation? Don't we have the right (responsibility) to identify our short comings as forgetful people and take measures to prevent self inflicted wounds? How could a forgetful person who takes the time to write a "subversion code" to maintain access to an economically necessary function, for which he already paid, while waiting for a replacement, be considered a crime?

To do so for oneself (or one's in-house enterprise) is different than teaching others how to do so as well. The first would probably be fair use to maintain economic viability while the other would be to deprive the manufacturer of economic gain and considered a crime.

Is the industry doing all it can do to reduce the time and cost it takes to replace dongles etc regardless of whether we broke it or misplaced it or is the industry gouging us like a gas station after a hurricane?

Fouth, since that dongle sticks out of the computer, if an employee trips on his own foot, falls into the computer and knocks his eye out with the thing - will Newtek be legally responsible for damages to our employee? If it reasonably could happen and does happen and the manufacturer did not take steps to prevent it from happening then - regardless of what they think their disclaimer says - they may be held negligent and liable by a judge ruling in favor of the insurance industry representing the employee and their employer. I am unaware of any legislation protecting the software industry from mega-million dollar lawsuits.

Hmmm, the insurance industry versus the software industry - which has the greater pool of legal and financial assets?

Finally, some readers may think that the software industry's actions are protected by the law. Truth is, every industry is allowed to go through an initial period of lassez-faire for development. Something happens, government takes notice and begins to curtail the economic power of the industry's largest benefactors. That happened with the steel barons of the late 1800's, the meat producers of the early 1900's, cruise ships of the 1920's, television of the 1940's, airliners of the 1960's and telephones of the 1980's. Its just about time for the new mega monopolies to get noticed.

I believe that the experience of Attorney General versus Microsoft from a few years ago was just a beginning. Do you remember that anti-monopoly lawsuit in which Microsoft settled out of court? Millions were spent on lawyers. The government has an unlimited financial resource called the Federal Mint. If they need more money - they print it! It didn't hurt them at all. In fact, it probably made a few careers.

Perhaps Microsoft was too large and the law too unexplored. No one has ever considered the implications of software monopolization. Perhaps the case was a probe. A research experiment? Will government establish precedent in the courts by going after the smaller fish first then use the decisions against the bigger coporations? Remember, government controls the battlefield!

What effect will China's decision to visit a private citizen (B. Gates) prior to the President of the US have upon our government's view of the software industry in general? Remember that cliche about kicking a sleeping giant? Have software manufacturers become a national security threat "too big for their britches?" Who will be the first example?

Yes Intellectual Property is an important economic asset. Government does not place it above the rights of consumers. They don't place the ownership of private property (a house) above the eminent domain desires of the majority - why wouold they protect the intellectual property of a few? Historically, government has always strived toward the collection of as many votes as possible. It may not have happened yet - it will.

How can we prepare our businesses for when it does? That is what I want. I want to have resources at my disposal - for which I am happy to pay a fair price - which protect my employees, enhance economic viability, are flexible, are POLITE, do the job for which I purchased the resource and continues to develop so that I may stay competitive. I do not want rude telephone operators, to be discriminated against, to be told to be happy for any monopolistic bone thrown my way or expected to not demand the rights granted by the Constitution, USSC and Congress.

Employees would never accept such an environment if it were placed upon them by us. We should not accept it when it is placed upon us by our suppliers and manufacturers!

cresshead
06-04-2006, 06:41 PM
woo!...that's a big reply!
...my bottom line here is 'look after your dongle'
if you don't like the idea of a hardware dongle and all the positives that can bring then your looking at a software key/lock similar to autodesk's which they now use [as of max 4] rather than the old parallel port dongle..the software lock is keyed to your pc hardware...and to move the install you need to install on another pc to get the hardware code or fingerprint which you then use on the export from your already installed pc as a destination pc...quite a pain and your softlock is temp stored on a usb stick or emailed...

hardware locks in my opinion have more positives than negatives compared to a softlock...

as for prices for replacements...a damaged one can be returned
a 'lost one' cannot...newek then have to have some amount of trust that the person's saying they lost their key really did...and also how many people who DO lose their key and get it replaced...eventually find the old one...some will...do they then return it???...

if you REALLY don't like the policy you can sell lightwave and go get blender!

jameswillmott
06-04-2006, 06:56 PM
In China you could turn your dongle into a nuclear weapon if you wanted to. ;)

Wow! Now thats what I call freedom!

cc3d
06-04-2006, 07:08 PM
I always keep my dongle where I can find it! :D

cresshead
06-04-2006, 07:40 PM
i have 2 usb dongles...one is permanently connected to my laptop in the back with a blue usb extension cable...the other is permanently connected to another usb extension cable...i figure it's simpler to find a 1.5musb cable with a usb dongle taped to the end of it rather than just a usb dongle on it's own! [it's bigger] and the cable is YELLOW!

Karmacop
06-04-2006, 09:23 PM
First, as I alluded to above, I personally (not being a judge or lawyer <yet>) think that the USSC has already ruled that a change of character for an IP from one format (VHS) to another (DVD) does not inherently violate the law. Each format modifies and duplicates the underlying "code technology." Based upon that precedent, a modification to an underlying code structure for software IP should not in and of itself be a violation of law.
Moving video from VHS to DVD is called media shifting. This is a fair use right concerned with copyright law. Your dongle is a security device so it doesn't come under copyright law, and in fact under US law the DMCA legally prevents you from trying to bypass your dongle in any way.



Second, The absent minded user may not be discriminated against. It is a reasonable expectation of the human condition that we WILL forget and misplace small items. Anyone charging more for a "misplaced" item than a "broken" item would have to prove that they were not discriminating against the absent minded user. Since time is money, the manufacturer would also have to prove that it takes an equal amount of time to replace a broken dongle as it does a lost one. The issue would actually be whether or not the fairness in leasing laws which all real estate organizations must obey are germane to the software industry. Are we leasing software code or buying it? If leasing - the leasor cannot and must prove they are not discriminating against any leasing group. If it is personal property then we can do whatever we want with it.
You own the dongle, but you don't own the software; you have a right to use the software under copyright law. "absent minded" people are not a group in society that can be discriminated against, and these people should be more mindful of something as important as their dongle. Newtek is protecting their own interests as a lost dongle is a dongle that someone else could be using - having a higher price to replace the dongle tries to stop people giving their dongle to a friend and getting their songle replaced.



The employees would sue over lost wages and the company would sue over lost sales revenue. Courts expect businesses to take measures to lessen the possibility of harm to our employees (customers). Shouldn't we fulfill that expectation?
Yes you should. Newtek lessen any harm done by shipping you a new dongle as fast as they can, and you can lessen your clients harm by adding a dew extra days to your schedule incase anything like this happens.



Fouth, since that dongle sticks out of the computer, if an employee trips on his own foot, falls into the computer and knocks his eye out with the thing - will Newtek be legally responsible for damages to our employee? If it reasonably could happen and does happen and the manufacturer did not take steps to prevent it from happening then - regardless of what they think their disclaimer says - they may be held negligent and liable by a judge ruling in favor of the insurance industry representing the employee and their employer.
:oye: The dongle sticks out from the back of the computer just like any plug. Again it is up to the workplace to create a safe workplace environment, not Newtek.



The government has an unlimited financial resource called the Federal Mint. If they need more money - they print it! It didn't hurt them at all. In fact, it probably made a few careers.
Yes, that's how the government gets money ... :screwy:

Signal to Noise
06-04-2006, 10:09 PM
...
Fouth, ...

Well, your thesis had merit until you tried to spell FOURTH. ;)

WhiteBoy
06-05-2006, 04:46 AM
i have 2 usb dongles...one is permanently connected to my laptop in the back with a blue usb extension cable...the other is permanently connected to another usb extension cable...i figure it's simpler to find a 1.5musb cable with a usb dongle taped to the end of it rather than just a usb dongle on it's own! [it's bigger] and the cable is YELLOW!

Ooh! Two dongles!

I'm impressed. ;)

Kurtis
06-05-2006, 07:23 PM
Fouth, since that dongle sticks out of the computer, if an employee trips on his own foot, falls into the computer and knocks his eye out with the thing - will Newtek be legally responsible for damages to our employee? If it reasonably could happen and does happen and the manufacturer did not take steps to prevent it from happening then - regardless of what they think their disclaimer says - they may be held negligent and liable by a judge ruling in favor of the insurance industry representing the employee and their employer. I am unaware of any legislation protecting the software industry from mega-million dollar lawsuits.

Hmmm, the insurance industry versus the software industry - which has the greater pool of legal and financial assets?

I'm not a lawyer, hence the reason I'm in Marketing and not Legal :hey:. So I'll leave the rest alone, but if this theory is going to be posited, I think it could be logically extended to say that by switching to the USB dongle several years ago, NewTek did take steps to prevent what you're theorizing. Unlike the parallel-port dongle, the USB dongle can be plugged into any USB port connected to the system (monitor, keyboard, hub, etc.). Some schools even connect it to an internal USB port, so it's not outside the case at all. Additionally, the USB dongle has the additional feature of a light on it, like a radio tower, which should draw attention and avoid possible collisions. All that being said, by the time it comes out far enough to curve downward, my power cable sticks further out the back of my tower than my dongle does (back when I had it plugged in there), and I have tripped over the power cable. :foreheads

For what it's worth, not trying to make fun of you or diminish your opinions Chrysalis, just enjoy theoretical arguments like this on occasion. :thumbsup:

art
06-05-2006, 08:18 PM
Additionally, the USB dongle has the additional feature of a light on it, like a radio tower, which should draw attention and avoid possible collisions.

You made me crawl underneath my desk searching for the light. I've never seen it before probably because its facing down in my usb port configuration.

Kurtis
06-06-2006, 07:42 AM
Glad I could contribute to the "learn something new every day" thing. :D

mattclary
06-06-2006, 07:57 AM
You forgot:

Sixth
What happens if aliens detect the electromagnetic signal from my dongle and come to my house? Is NewTek going to be responsible for the impending enslavement of the human race? Is NewTek going to help me pay for the construction of my Pusher Robot that I must build to protect myself from the aliens?

pauland
06-06-2006, 08:13 AM
Matt, have you never noticed how Newtek employees stare at the water running from the tap.. ?

hunter
06-06-2006, 08:40 AM
I keep my dongle in an Altoids tin with a short usb cable. No fuss no muss. There is a thing called personal responsability, and if you can't keep yourself from losing your dongle or poking yourself in the eye with it, perhaps you shouldn't have one. ;)

Bog
06-06-2006, 02:43 PM
Hum.

I'm not a *big* fan of the dongle, but all in it's probably one of the least worst ways of doing copy-protection. Software-only protection ranges from "Blimmin' Useless" through to "Sony Rootkit Horror Ate My Boot Partition", and is about as desirable as having one's happy sack hammered flat with a meat tenderiser.

I found out today that Photoshop CS2 manages something I didn't think possible - spyware that's even more unpleasant and vicious than even I had dared surmise - have a Google for "Photoshop CS2 Spyware". Then take a drink.

I suddenly decided that my old version of Photoshop was preferable, even if I'm shy a few features. Better that than condoning the use of Really Unpleasant Software Protection Practices. No *way* are Adobe getting any more of my money while they're shipping that kind of crud!

I'd like a few changes with the dongle, to be sure - being able to buy a Network Licence would be extra convenient, for example. I'm sure that schools and universities would concur with me on that one - whilst it's feasable to rig a machine with an internal USB port, it's still something else for a scallywag to figure out a way to pilfer.

As the choices these days seem to be:

1) Dongle
2) CD Protection
3) Selling your soul to the Dark Spirit of Spyware

I'll settle for the potential deathtrap that is my dongle, the ability to browse pictures of nekkid ladies without anyone peering over my shoulder, and the ability to blast the walls down with Wish You Were Here (Pink Floyd's finest hour in my arrogant opinion) as I work.

And if I do trip over and manage to ricochet sideways, gouging an eye out on the dongle protruding from the front of my PC, then at least I'll have both a *very* unique dongle, and a smashing idea for a novelty false eye.

Kurtis
06-06-2006, 02:48 PM
I'd like a few changes with the dongle, to be sure - being able to buy a Network Licence would be extra convenient, for example. I'm sure that schools and universities would concur with me on that one - whilst it's feasable to rig a machine with an internal USB port, it's still something else for a scallywag to figure out a way to pilfer.

We're working on a network dongle option as part of the v9.x cycle.

Bog
06-06-2006, 03:36 PM
I got interviewed for Channel 9 with regards to some worky stuff t'other day, and got asked why I still use LightWave after 10+ years.

They're having to edit down my response, and you've just made me even worse with it.... ;)

Penforhire
06-06-2006, 03:41 PM
Maybe the issue is different for specialty software but when I think of the most financially successful software company of all time (Microsoft) I also think of how they made their fortune selling unprotected and widely pirated software. How much did piracy hurt them? I content it "made them" not hurt them even the tinest bit. I know they moved to more "copy protection" (activation) but even in their case it sounds like they forgot their roots.

Here's the thing. I end up buying any software I seriously use. If I'm not serious I'm not going to spend any real money to play with it. Is it that different for CGI programs? Should individuals be burdened with any form of copy protection because more institutions (schools and businesses) pirate software for financial gain?

In my experience private individuals freely swapping pirated software are not serious users and you're not gaining any sales by restricting their little cheaters circle. All you've done is prevent them from playing with a free illegal copy.

I'm not arguing against copyright law, although "fair use" in my mind means being able to operate LightWave even if I lose my dongle and the Earth swallows Newtek tomorrow. I'm just talking about the questionable financial consequences of not using copy protection.

Bog
06-06-2006, 03:49 PM
Penforhire,

It's as easy as pie to find a cracked copy of *any* piece of software, be it dongled, CD protected or infested with spyware sentinels. It really is a moot point.

The dongle's token Due Dilligence, isn't much of a hass, NewTek's repair/replacement policy rocks the goram box and the main issue I've got with it is being addressed.

I'm happy. Are you happy? Happiness is Manda... oh, sorry... wrong game... ;)

ItsPete
06-06-2006, 09:31 PM
*OT sorry...*
>>Google for "Photoshop CS2 Spyware"
what was i supposed to see? nothing on the first page from google indicated any spyware and i'm too lazy to keep diggin right now. can you be more specific? i have to get cs2 for work pretty soon.

back on topic... nt's policy is a whole lot easier than others i've dealt with. fine by me and the dongle doesn't bother me a bit. except maybe for loosing a port. but hey i got plenty of ports anyway. besides what would we do without all these "playing with your dongle will make you blind" comments? i mean you do know what they say about altoids... no? well you'll have to find out for yourself. ;p

randomnumbers
06-07-2006, 01:08 AM
Well I never expected a half serious question about a dongle bypass to generate so much debate.
For the record I have solved my forgetful dongle syndrome.
Made up a 1" parallel port ribbon cable (yup back in the stone age with a parallel port dongle here) which allows me to gaffer tape the dongle to the back of my laptop screen.
Not pretty, but it does the job.
And my laptop was screaming out for yet more gaffer tape.

Bog
06-07-2006, 02:02 AM
Adobe Spyware stuff for ItsPete and any other interested party (http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview?id=321444)

ItsPete
06-07-2006, 07:36 AM
ah thanks for spending the time, bog. yeah that does sound like a pain in the pants. i'm pretty much stuck with it though. wish it had a dongle! ;)

@random... glad you solved the prob! gaffer tape, wd40 and a swift kick... they fix just about anything!

Sarford
06-07-2006, 04:55 PM
Thanks for your link Bog.

So thats the hidden agenda of Adobe when buying Macromedia. They said it was for making the programs more compatible while infact they wanna wrangle more money out of their customers because now they don't have a real competitor anymore...

Well, these are the joys of Trusted Computing (http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~rja14/tcpa-faq.html), ill expect it to become much worse than this.
And now that everybody is convinced through exessive marketing that copyright violation is a realy big and bad problem there is almost no stoping them anymore.

Chrysalis
06-08-2006, 02:42 AM
EM junkie aliens --- that's great!

** Good points penforhire **

Someone mentioned Autodesk's security tech. They are a special case in the computing world. Their stuff makes it possible to conceptualize, model, animate, educate users, digitally test (via dwg format into FEA etc), generate blueprints for & even remote manufacture a product. The code they created can be used to make anything - even things that go boom. I agree with the need for Autodesk to know who is using their stuff and to what ends. I might even be convinced that it should be nationalized under some form of national security IP emminent domain law. Their tech appears to be different than Lightwave because our product is entertainment - not "real world." Unless LWCAD goes from what it is to the ability of generating blueprints for weapon manufacture - NewTek won't meet the same security issue.

The hypothetical regarding the one-eyed employee was based on USB. Many computers have USB ports in the front. My new Dell has 2. Combine the frontal USB with a business trip, something sticking out from the front and the right (wrong) employee - bang. I've known fellow paramedics who were sued (and lost) for breaking a rib while performing CPR. The patient's undiagnosed osteoporosis and Physics were not considered germane to the case! Several friends and I walked away from our ambulances when we realized anything can happen in a courtroom.

The large printer and serial ports on the rear of the computer are almost unused. All of my tech (Epson printers, plotter, Canon scanner etc) are USB. Just brainstorming, but maybe the ports could be some sort of inexpensive babyboard to archive crytologic data for program access regardless of manufacturer? If something like that were adopted, it should not mandate an internet link (or key strike tracking) for use unless the OEM can prove that their product is a risk to life. If so, we're back to the national security issue. Doing so without the threat to life = Big Brother.

Use of USB tech for laptops would still be appropriate. Many of us travel with our work. Too few of us have others between our legs and in close proximity to our USB while we work. Little risk of getting an eye poked.

I still consider charging more for a lost dongle than a busted one discriminatory and inappropriate. One says absent minded people are not protected - what about users with early Alzheimer's or a crash induced concussion etc?

I have absolutely NO beef with software companies protecting their IP - they protect me as an artist when they do. I think they should divide users into one of several classes. One person user on one CPU regardless of processor count. One person user on multiple cpu; wireframer, skinner, renderer etc. <due to render times> Small business users with less than 25 artisan employees. etc etc.

Is Newtek looking at the issue from the user productivity/choice or the IP point of view? Perhaps NewTek designers could investigate ways in which a single artist can use the software to full effect without losing production time and structure their IP security license accordingly.

The multi-cpu user license should not prevent the priveledge of family use. Maybe artistic parents want to teach their kids (future customers) how to take up the art.

Does NewTek have a Linux option? (I know, so keep the tomatoes in the fridge.)

Chrysalis
06-08-2006, 04:28 AM
Moving video from VHS to DVD is called media shifting. This is a fair use right concerned with copyright law. Your dongle is a security device so it doesn't come under copyright law, and in fact under US law the DMCA legally prevents you from trying to bypass your dongle in any way.

1. I AM NOT YET A LAWYER so contact someone else (or 2 - one pro and one con) if you need legal advice on the issue! What I contribute is as part of a water cooler discussion - it is BS so take it as such. Also, my digital copy of the USSC digital reporters hasn't been updated in a couple years due to the move to Texas and the reestablishiment of my business. What I am about to write is part of my human and perhaps faulty memory. It also may have been superseded by more current law.
2. Media shifting = fair use --- agreed
3. Dongle = security device... can not be legally bypassed --- I would argue that a person has the right to break the lock on a door (real or virtual) to properly leased property (apartment, automobile or dongle) if they see that failing to do so would prevent them from recovering assets (= lost revenue) from a safe (computer) during a fire (discriminatory replacement policy). The question would deal with the inherent severity of the violation versus financial loss to the leasee. What would a judge consider "fair?"
4. The DMCA was passed in 1998. That same year saw a ruling by the USSC in * Feltner v Columbia Pictures Television Inc 523 U.S. 340 * lf I remember correctly, that is the case which gave users the right to media shift. The nine were aware of the DMCA legislation as it was either going through the system or already ratified at the time of their ruling. Ask an attorney (I am not one), but, I think the state of mind of the justices was that a person has the right to access and modify "their properly purchased property" regardless of its original format, purchase construct and copyright relevance. Much earlier and established laws give leasees the right to circumvent or even destroy leased property if doing so preserves their economic viability without doing unfair harm to the leasor.
5. A - Cracking the code with the intent to sell it. B - Depriving the manufacturer of their right to economic gain by facilitating coterminous use by several employees though only one was licensed to do so at a time. Both of these conditions should be "obvious" unfair uses of the software and doing either would be unethical - and hopefully a crime. Such a ruling would protect all of us as artists. --- I say 'probably' because a series of nutcase judges could label software development work for hire. In which case, all IP protections would become extinct!

<Have any advancements in the code been made due to a licensed user's request? Did the user subsequently purchase the update? Is that analogous to a development for a specific leasee? Work for hire?>

6. Contact a few attorneys before doing anything. I am uncertain as to whether or not the USSC has heard a case directly germane to this issue since 1998. If they have - the attorneys you contact should know the law. Do as they suggest.


"absent minded" people are not a group in society that can be discriminated against, and these people should be more mindful of something as important as their dongle.

"Absent minded" people include those with Alzheimer's, accident induced brain injury etc. Charging one with such injury more than someone who doesn't would be discrimination.


having a higher price to replace the dongle tries to stop people giving their dongle to a friend and getting their songle replaced.

This statement is true ONLY if a long series of judges could be convinced that:
1. People should be charged more for what they could do rather than what they did. Courts have always disagreed with those who have come even close to treating everyone as a criminal before trial.
2. Charging one person more than another for the same item was not discriminatory. (can you say 'class action lawsuit?')
3. There was absolutely NO OTHER WAY to protect the financial interests of the manufacturer. Proving that could lead the judges to severly modify the industry. Is making money truly more important than the human right against discrimination and the presupposition of guilt?


The dongle sticks out from the back of the computer just like any plug. Again it is up to the workplace to create a safe workplace environment, not Newtek.

Everyone gets named in a law suit. Up go the prices. More on this issue of the "one-eyed employee" in my last post.


NOTE --- I enjoy thinking and conversing about matters relating to the Constitution and law. My wife and I both served and fought for it. While speaking on the issue, I admit that I tend to both Bull Shi* and get long winded. I've even been known to be wrong! Take everything I say as moderately informed. Offer your own moderately informed opinion. We'll all listen. Maybe we will derive enjoyment from the discussion. Maybe someone will read it and make a decision that improves our lives. Thanks

Chrysalis
06-08-2006, 04:52 AM
Hey - Everyone needs to read Sarford's Link!

http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~rja14/tcpa-faq.html

Karmacop
06-08-2006, 11:27 AM
3. Dongle = security device... can not be legally bypassed --- I would argue that a person has the right to break the lock on a door ...
But the dongle isn't stopping you from this. You can get your dongle replaced, and you wont lose much time. LW9 also allows temp codes so you could be given a temp code till your dongle is replaced.



4. The DMCA was passed in 1998. That same year saw a ruling by the USSC in * Feltner v Columbia Pictures Television Inc 523 U.S. 340 * lf I remember correctly, that is the case which gave users the right to media shift.

From what I can tell this case has to do with the right to a Jury in certain cases. Anyway, as i said media shifting is a copyright thing, and the dongle has nothing to do with copyright. Basically you can media shift the files on the Lightwave CD to a dvd or usb drive, but you can't media shift your dongle code to some other device.



"Absent minded" people include those with Alzheimer's, accident induced brain injury etc. Charging one with such injury more than someone who doesn't would be discrimination.
But they are not being charged more because of the disease, anyone that loses their dongle will get charged the same amount. It's only if your dongle is stolen that you are given a discount.



Is making money truly more important than the human right against discrimination and the presupposition of guilt?
They aren't charging more if you lose it, they are charging you less if it is stolen. Basically Newtek have a fee for replacing a dongle, and if it gets stolen they give you a break and let you replace it for cheaper.



While speaking on the issue, I admit that I tend to both Bull Shi* and get long winded. I've even been known to be wrong! Take everything I say as moderately informed.
Yes they are long winded, sometimes I don't know where to stop quoting you :p

Chrysalis
06-10-2006, 01:13 AM
You're right - the dongle IS NOT a copyright thing as it is a physical item leased from an agent. It is the same as a leased apartment or vehicle. Because it is a physical property device - the dongle issue is actually a "right to destroy leased property during emergency" thing. Just about the entire history of the USSC has supported one's right to destroy leased property to an appropriate degree if doing so during an emergency prevents the leasee from undue loss.

Provision of temp codes completely eliminates the need for circumvention if Newtek provides the code through 24 hr Tech Support. --- If the key is available then no need to break the window!

Are you saying it would be appropriate to charge everyone leasing an apartment the same amount, but, giving a white man a discount for being white is not discrimination? Giving a discount to someone who is not forgetful is the same thing as charging more from someone who is. The end effect is that a class of people are being discriminated against. Regardless of excuse.

hunter
06-18-2006, 10:17 AM
have you seen what autodesk is doing:

http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?t=356734

Thank goodness for Newtek, and their dongles. :lwicon: :I_Love_Ne

Chrysalis
06-18-2006, 05:46 PM
The entire industry (global culture?) seems to suffer from intellectual constipation. They need a mental enema!

Customer service is no longer expected from the front office. Rude employees can't be fired (why have management?). Corporations take IP positions that are weak on logic but high on legal cost. Customers are expected to take what they get and be grateful. Big brother owns your computer and you pay them to do so. On and on and on

Students buy exams on the internet, women legally kill the unborn (yet I'm a "baby killer" for being a peacetime vet!), men don't have the right to know they're fathers, a president was impeached for getting a BJ, VPs are shotgunning lawyers --- the sky is falling! I'll post more on the asteroid extinction threat after I've fully grasped the gravity of it!

I would say that Linux could be the cure for at least one sector - but, monoposoft has targeted the platform for extinction. Combine that with the growing resistance to open the source code and the rise of charging profit for distros etc and one sees a bleak future for the digitally inclined!

No longer do we need to read Gibbon to know what happened to Rome! Just try to buy something without the proper mark!


**********

I post the following story for the simple reason that it ticked me off!


My wife ordered the LW3D / Vue 5 Combo just before the package was extended. We live down here in America's Spaghetti Western (aka US-Mex Border) and had our wallets stolen within a year of moving here. Apparently, we purchased car washes for half the county! Anyway, our experiences have made us prefer to use business checks for the most important biz purchases (>$500). We paid the same way through e-on software for the combo.

Their site says they should send product within 4 days of order post. We waited about 5 days from post to receive a confirmation of shipping - nothing. My wife called and was rudely told to "be patient." We waited another three or four days. My wife called again and was given the order number. Well, 10 days after the order was posted by them on their website tracker as received - I called.

I asked the guy what was going on. His reply - the credit card was fraudulent! I paid with a check! He then said that they do not accept check. My wife confirmed with two people at e-on prior to starting this little journey. Also, their website documents the addresses where one should send check etc. His reply was that the check info would be removed that day. A week later and its still there.

I asked what was taking so long as my product cycle had been slowed. I received the "there's a problem in Europe" line and was essentially told to "be patient." I admit, I grew tired of the malaise. I told the guy that I am a customer losing money trying to purchase his company's product. He became even more rude! I asked for the name of his manager. He said he didn't have one! Then it got heated and he hung up on me.

A few minutes later one of his cohorts (not a manager) called to discuss the issue. I got the feeling they were trying to advance some type of cubicle soap opera! I told the new guy that I wanted the software, but would not tolerate being disrespected and practically expected to gravel for it! He told me it would take 24 hours for Paris to clarify the problem with payment. I gave 48 as Europe IS on a different schedule.

2 days later I called back. I think I spoke with the original butt head. I asked him what the status was. His reply was that they were waiting for the check to clear. LIE!!! First, their website tracker downgraded the order to having been received. Verifying payment was not noted on the order. Second, I had my bank officer on the other line. She was telling me that no one had even probed my account.

I promptly gave them what I feel they wanted in the first place - to not make a sale! I canceled the order. Their company plays that surf song for all who call. If everybody had an ocean - Heck, I would have settled for one businessman having the software!

Epilogue: I just recieved a few books on C, C++, Python and Java for father's day. I guess I'll have to learn to paint the painting AND mix the paint!

Verlon
06-19-2006, 12:06 AM
I do not so much mind the dongle.

There are countries with very thin copryright laws that you could move to if you had issues with how the US handles it, BUT remember that YOUR work as an artist could also be distributed a little differently than you intended if you did.

I hate how certain groups try to infringe on my fair use. I hate it a LOT.
If I buy a copy of *whatever,* it is my expectation that I can use my ONE copy of *whatever* as I see fit.

I should be able to do anything with *whatever* that I can do with a book (legally). I can read it, loan it to a friend, sell it on ebay, or give it to my dad. As longs as that one book is only being read in one place at any given time, I should be okay.

Now the RIAA (and the MPAA) would have it work differently. Some software companies are a bit draconic also (anyone that says you can't sell your old copy of *whatever* is going too far IMHO).

mattclary
06-19-2006, 06:03 AM
have you seen what autodesk is doing:

http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?t=356734

Thank goodness for Newtek, and their dongles. :lwicon: :I_Love_Ne

And this is why cracks exist. The day any software company prevents me from running software I purchased legally, is the day I have no moral qualm about cracking it like an egg.

gjjackson
06-19-2006, 09:11 AM
And this is why cracks exist. The day any software company prevents me from running software I purchased legally, is the day I have no moral qualm about cracking it like an egg.

I've always had a pretty strong opinion when it came to cracked software. I, too, acquired MB through the 3D World offer and upgraded. I have no reason to upgrade to 7 and don't appreciate the policy. Recently I had a severe hard drive failure and had to reinstall Everything. I Did have to get a new activation code since the original one didn't seem to work. I was unaware it was designed that way. If an OS reinstall or hard drive replacement causes a replacement activation code and renders the software unusable I would be so P O'd, I'd want to strangle someone. If this Is the case I would seriously consider finding a way to use it, legal or not. If they're going to force an upgrade I wouldn't want, that ain't right. They should, at least, come up with an activation that wouldn't expire for Any reason.

mattclary
06-19-2006, 09:18 AM
Deep down inside, don't we all know that this is the true purpose of product activation? If you have to get permission to run software every time you install it, it's an easy way for a company to require you to upgrade ***COUGHrepurchaseCOUGH*** to a newer version of said software. It's more about revenue stream than piracy.

That's the best reason to keep a dongle over activation.

stevecullum
06-19-2006, 09:41 AM
:eek: I just read that Autodesk statement and can't believe they can actually do this!

What would happen if you were in the middle of production and had a complete failure, but couldn't afford the upgrade? Your client could sue you for failure to deliver on contract and whatever ramifications that would bring. It could end up costing you your home and livelyhood.

Surely there HAS to be some kind of legal protection against this sort of forced upgrade policy!

mattclary
06-19-2006, 10:26 AM
Personally, I would contact the Better Business Bureau. Probably a lawyer too.

Penforhire
06-19-2006, 10:38 AM
I see a time in the not-so-distant future when these programs will not even reside on our local hard drives. With widespread high-speed internet access we'll have to "activate" every time we log into the vendor's servers to start the program. It has some upsides (latest revision always active, access from any "box" using your ID) but it is a little creepy to contemplate.

It'll be a lot like computing was way back when we all had "dumb terminals." Now where'd I put that VT100 ...

mattclary
06-19-2006, 11:21 AM
I see a time in the not-so-distant future when these programs will not even reside on our local hard drives. With widespread high-speed internet access we'll have to "activate" every time we log into the vendor's servers to start the program. It has some upsides (latest revision always active, access from any "box" using your ID) but it is a little creepy to contemplate.

It'll be a lot like computing was way back when we all had "dumb terminals." Now where'd I put that VT100 ...

Not I. Renting is for suckers, and that's what this amounts to. If I can't own it, I won't pay for it.

hunter
06-19-2006, 11:44 AM
Studica is selling Maya/ Max bundles. I think this is a step toward phasing out Maya altogether. Now's the time Newtek, There's gonna be a flood of unhappy campers looking for kickass alternatives. Add a good hair/fur and decent fluids, price two packages; standard and advanced, and boom the industry is yours. :D

Bog
06-19-2006, 11:48 AM
Dollar Vote, ladies and gents. I shan't be upgrading any of the Adobe stuff that came with my edit card for the simple reason that I won't tolerate spyware on my boxen. If they want an app that needs a port open to call home to mommy, then they can surely find plenty of other consumers to dump it on.

If a work-around to disable or mute this horrible thing comes along, I may consider buying new versions of Adobe's tools - but I'll crack 'em, first thing. If Adobe find it within their purview to put invasive, potentially devastating software on my computer as part of their licence agreement (and usually banking on the fact that most folk don't bother reading those huge EULAs, and aren't lawyer enough to understand them if they do to get such drek onto one's machine) - and indeed encyphered into it's boot sectors, rot their eyes! - then I find it within my purview to quietly garotte the malware in question.

The UK's making things like the Sony Rootkit explot illegal in the future. If this means there'll be a seperate UK version of various tools that has the malicious software components removed, then I may well just keep buying my stuff through the UK, wheresoever I may roam.

(Yes, I blimmin' furious about this. Can you tell?)

mattclary
06-19-2006, 12:09 PM
What happens to dialing software if you have no internet connection? At the rate all this is going, I might have to set up a seperate machine just for internet access and reserve one for running all the dialers that has no connection.

Bog
06-19-2006, 12:12 PM
Prolly get more work done if your productivity box doesn't have an intarweb connection.

Witness if you will, this here post on the internet right here. And your one. And the ones before that... ;)

mattclary
06-19-2006, 12:21 PM
No doubt!

Verlon
06-19-2006, 02:59 PM
Well Matt... I see
System Requirements: high speed internet connection

How about pay per use software marketed under "why pay full price for software you only use sometimes?"

Or pay everytime you use certain features? Imagine getting billed every time you used the new fluid plugin? Or charged by the minute that FPrime was running *shudder.*

Imagine having to call Softwar3 eXtreme and ask for a refund for the use of the new super plugin because the scene crashed. "We're sorry, we don't warranty against crashes while using third party software. You can only run Softwar3 eXtreme products while running 3D Boutique Extreme. It also clearly states in the EULA we do not warranty against crashes while rendering objects modeled in another package."

Yes, I can see it getting VERY bad given enough leeway.

Bog
06-19-2006, 03:03 PM
"It looks like you're modelling a car. Your licence is only valid for modelling creatures. To extend your licence to cover hard-object modelling, please sacrifice your firstborn, now."

Neeever happen. And if it does, nobody'll use it except Big Studios who don't care how much money they spend.

You know. The ones using Renderman. (OOooh, handbag!)

Verlon
06-19-2006, 03:17 PM
I don't QUITE see that happening Bog, but I definitely see an attempt at pay per use.

LMUSIC
06-19-2006, 04:38 PM
. . . [snip] have a Google for "Photoshop CS2 Spyware". [snip]

BEWARE, two of the top five links attempted to install a backdoor trojan on my system. Better hope your protection is up to date.

Chrysalis
06-25-2006, 08:59 PM
The industry has too much money for individuals to stand up to the despotism.

Maybe we need an ACLU for the digital rights of end users? <Lawyers, libraries, scholars, artists, programmers, engineers etc >

Remember, an unanswered position is regarded as an accepted position.

byte_fx
06-26-2006, 01:53 AM
Just a thought on a possible compromise Newtek might consider -

For every legally registered Full version license (not Academic) Newtek could offer a second full version license at a reduced rate.

The second license would have a special serial number so it couldn't be used to buy another reduced cost license.

That way Newtek would protect it's investment in development while allowing users the benefit of increased workflow from one system doing rendering while modeling and scene setup could be done on a seperate system if needed.

Like I said - just a thought.

byte_fx

Bog
06-26-2006, 02:07 AM
I'd better point out, I guess, that my previous comment was firmly in the "taking things to a ludicrous extreme" arena.

BazC
06-26-2006, 02:29 AM
I have to say I'm not happy about the methods Adobe use. The thought of having to phone AdobeUK and ask nicely if they will let me carry on using PS if I change my HD really puts my back up! The problem is there's no real alternative for me, I've tried the open source apps, Painter, Paintshop Pro and none of them feels right the way PS does. I just wish somone would bring out a really first class alternative!

nakrul
07-01-2006, 02:44 PM
I don't want to post anything to hardcore on warez. I will post some facts and some of my own thoughts.

I have had big companys do some effects work for me in shake and DF. I had the time to chat with one online. For the most part he said the companys do buy the software yet they work with the cracked software because its easyer on them. Another guy is a big beta tester and always gets free software to try and even gets Free Full lic to software but he was saying it has to be cracked because the dongles effect the other computers. Tho he said it all stays in house and anything not given to him is paid for.

Find other ways i guess.

/R Nakrul

stevecullum
07-01-2006, 03:16 PM
This is in fact quite common in large companies. I knew a guy from a major games studio who lectured at our Uni. He let it slip after a few pints, that all their machines were using cracked Maya licenses even though they had the full ones, merely because the network licensing issues were a PITA!

Lightwolf
07-01-2006, 06:34 PM
I have had big companys do some effects work for me in shake and DF. I had the time to chat with one online. For the most part he said the companys do buy the software yet they work with the cracked software because its easyer on them.
Probably the same ones that then b*tch about stability issues with the app. Quite a few cracks are a lot more unstable than the original piece of software, not because the code has been tampered with but because not all of the protective code has been removed.

I wonder what the issue with DF is, the network license is a breeze to set up even on larger networks... less than five minutes of work on the server and you're done.

Cheers,
Mike

nakrul
07-01-2006, 08:11 PM
^

I was saying I paid them for effects work for me and they used shake and DF not that they cracked them tho they may have. who knows :)

Captain Obvious
07-02-2006, 06:21 PM
Outbound firewalls are a MUST if you use higher-end commercial software! So, Photoshop, you wanna call home? ACCESS DENIED!

Works wonders for the nasty corporate spyware. :)