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Liberator
05-08-2006, 08:26 AM
I have learnt to my cost that losing/breaking your Lightwave Dongle is something you really don't want to do:thumbsdow

My computer fell over a short while back, smashing my Dongle in the process. I sent the fragments back to Newtek-Europe who very kindly sent me a replacement for free. Lucky me - Or so I thought. A new Dongle means a new license, so I've had to:


Write of to Worley Labs to request new G2 & FPrime licences. They in turn needed to be faxed documents or put in touch with Newtek to confirm that I'm not fibbing.

Write to Newtek-Europe because I can't download the Lightwave v9 Beta as my license is now not valid. Contacted them a couple of weeks back about this but have still had no response :(

Write to Eyeon to request a new license for DFX+, because that's tied to my old license. Am still waiting for a response.


:bangwall:

So there you have it people. Look after that little fella as if it was your own child!

Signal to Noise
05-08-2006, 09:06 AM
Yes. Keep your dongle in protective sheath. ;)

Martin Adams
05-08-2006, 11:09 AM
This is something that I've become increasingly concerned about now that I use a laptop as a desktop replacement. I'm paranoid that I'll misplace it and lose it. While I understand why NewTek have chosen to use a dongle, I only wish that they could find an alternative that wasn't so easy to break or lose.

Lamont
05-08-2006, 11:40 AM
I just called each company on the phone and got my new Lic within 30 minutes for everything (Sas and LW, and some other plug that made hair chains).

Maybe because you're in the UK?

joeldberry
05-08-2006, 11:44 AM
This is something that I've become increasingly concerned about now that I use a laptop as a desktop replacement. I'm paranoid that I'll misplace it and lose it. While I understand why NewTek have chosen to use a dongle, I only wish that they could find an alternative that wasn't so easy to break or lose.

Adobe and Macromedia have the best "anti-piracy" copy protection scheme going in my opinion. The activation process they use is quick and convenient (you can even do it over the phone if you don't have Internet access), and you can activate and deactivate many times, just in case you need to move the software to another machine. Even after 10 activation/deactivation cycles, you can call them and get the number "reset" (This I have done). They are very helpful and very courteous. Not only that, they allow you to use the software on up to two (2) machines per license, as long as you aren't using the two pieces of software at the same time; so, in effect, you can have one at home, one at work or one on a desktop, one on a laptop, etc.

This is really one of the most convenient ways of limiting piracy (yes, I realize that software gets cracked all the time) in my opinion. I think all major software developers should adopt this model. If your customers find using (and that means transfering, or on multiple computers) your software easy and convenient, then you can usually hang on to them. But draconian anti-piracy measures are just one more reason for customers to "think twice" about moving to a competitor's software. In this day and age, there are really no reasons for dongles any more, with activation/deactivation processes becoming easier and more convenient.

I wish Newtek (and others, like, say, Avid with XPress Pro) would adopt this policy. Serialize the serial number to a machine (preferably, two) and let us go and be creative without having to worry about keeping up with that expensive little piece of purple plastic...

kmaas
05-08-2006, 11:58 AM
I wish they wouldn't - I like being able to use my license of LW on different computers without having to contact NewTek every time (or every ten times). It makes for very easy upgrades.

BazC
05-08-2006, 12:04 PM
Adobe and Macromedia have the best "anti-piracy" copy protection scheme going in my opinion. The activation process they use is quick and convenient (you can even do it over the phone if you don't have Internet access), and you can activate and deactivate many times, just in case you need to move the software to another machine. Even after 10 activation/deactivation cycles, you can call them and get the number "reset" (This I have done). They are very helpful and very courteous. Not only that, they allow you to use the software on up to two (2) machines per license, as long as you aren't using the two pieces of software at the same time; so, in effect, you can have one at home, one at work or one on a desktop, one on a laptop, etc.

This is really one of the most convenient ways of limiting piracy (yes, I realize that software gets cracked all the time) in my opinion. I think all major software developers should adopt this model. If your customers find using (and that means transfering, or on multiple computers) your software easy and convenient, then you can usually hang on to them. But draconian anti-piracy measures are just one more reason for customers to "think twice" about moving to a competitor's software. In this day and age, there are really no reasons for dongles any more, with activation/deactivation processes becoming easier and more convenient.

I wish Newtek (and others, like, say, Avid with XPress Pro) would adopt this policy. Serialize the serial number to a machine (preferably, two) and let us go and be creative without having to worry about keeping up with that expensive little piece of purple plastic...

Noooooo! I'm not a huge fan of the dongle but at least I can install on as many machines as I like, I don't have to ask Newteks permission to continue using the software if I replace my harddrive and I can even give friends a copy if they want to try it! I have heard stories (maybe inaccurate - who knows) of Adobe customer support getting suspicious of a legitimate license holder and refusing to renew the activation code. Also, as you so rightly states it does absolutely nothing to prevent piracy, it's just a pain in the bum for people who actually bought the software! I will think long and hard before upgrading Photoshop from version7!

Rant over ! :D

joeldberry
05-08-2006, 01:01 PM
Again, just my opinion.

I have had 0 (that's zero) horror stories with either Macromedia or Adobe since they started the activation program around 2001 (I think), and I have built and rebuilt and transfered licenses dozens of times. I even formatted my machine without transfering the license once (which is basically throwing away one of your two activation licenses) and Adobe promptly reset my codes so that I could reinstall them on two machines!

Thus the ongoing debate. Those who do not wish to have to keep up with (and end up losing or breaking and having to re-license tons of software to) their dongles. And those who do not wish to have to activate/reactivate their software. Where is the answer? I don't think Newtek is going to go for completely eliminating their copy protection scheme...

There are so many good arguments to all sides...

colkai
05-08-2006, 01:07 PM
When I swapped my dongle from Parallel to USB, a couple of EMails and proof of dongle swap and everything was transferred to the new number within 2 days. Barring VB which took a little longer.

BazC
05-08-2006, 01:21 PM
There are so many good arguments to all sides...

True enough! Actually I doubt whether any system really reduces piracy, they merely serve to inconvenience legitimate users! Ah well :D

Martin Adams
05-08-2006, 01:35 PM
I just called each company on the phone and got my new Lic within 30 minutes for everything (Sas and LW, and some other plug that made hair chains).

Maybe because you're in the UK?

Good tip that I plan to use quite a lot, being in the UK it can be daunting phoning a company in the US due to the unpredicted costs. However, I've used SkypeOut to do it and it was absolutely superb!!! I certainly recommend.

I think that the concept of a dongle on a laptop is stupid. Not for the function of the dongle, but the ease of breaking (due to moving around), easy of theft (as you're more likely to be using it in a wider range of people), more chance losing it (due to regular packing and unpacking the laptop) and more chance of wear and tear.

However, I agree that a dongle is nice to move from machine to machine and use that. But alas, could that not be done with the Internet? Why not check out the software for a period of time? Finished with the software, check it back in and allow another computer to use it.

For those that don't have the internet (obviously not you, because printing web pages is sooo 1990's), how about checking out to another machine from the master install - and use a memory key to transfer the unlock key.

Just a thought.

mattclary
05-08-2006, 01:52 PM
I e-mailed Worley when I swapped from parallel to USB and had a new license key foo F-Prime and Disgust within an hour. Had to forward the the order confirmation e-mail I got from NewTek, but that was pretty painless.

mattclary
05-08-2006, 01:56 PM
However, I agree that a dongle is nice to move from machine to machine and use that. But alas, could that not be done with the Internet? Why not check out the software for a period of time? Finished with the software, check it back in and allow another computer to use it.

For those that don't have the internet (obviously not you, because printing web pages is sooo 1990's), how about checking out to another machine from the master install - and use a memory key to transfer the unlock key.

Just a thought.

And a memory key is superior to a dongle???? Pretty sure the dongle can be removed once LW is launched...

I REALLY don't like the idea of software "phoning home" to ask permission to run! The dongle is just fine by me.

How plssed off would you be if you or NewTek lost internet connection and you couldn't run LightWave?

phillydee
05-08-2006, 02:40 PM
... Pretty sure the dongle can be removed once LW is launched...

Ahh, such bliss of USB... I'm still on parallel. And, I've used it on both my workstation and laptop... Gee that would be sweet to remove it once LW starts up ;D

joeldberry
05-08-2006, 02:40 PM
The activation process I am talking about is a one-time thing: when you install the software, not every time you run the program -- that would get annoying REALLY quickly! What happens with Adobe and Macromedia is that they serialize the software to that machine, contact their server with the code, then send an unlock code back to your machine that gets written (somewhere mysteriously!) on your hard drive -- then you can "use" their license.

Lord Snarebotto
05-08-2006, 03:08 PM
The activation process I am talking about is a one-time thing: when you install the software, not every time you run the program -- that would get annoying REALLY quickly! What happens with Adobe and Macromedia is that they serialize the software to that machine, contact their server with the code, then send an unlock code back to your machine that gets written (somewhere mysteriously!) on your hard drive -- then you can "use" their license.

This method, IMHO, sucks.

Recently, I had an unrecoverable system crash and had to rebuild everything. I'm a musician, so I have lots of music software as well as 3D software. All of the music software I have that auths through the dongle was up and running immediately. The challenge-response authorization, due to an email server gllitch, was unusable for 6 hours.

That is 6 hours I wasn't able to use software that I paid a good deal of money for. I hate copy protection of all kinds, and I have never made copies of anything for anyone.

Dongles > Challenge-response, because it's never just a 'one-time thing'.

JeffRutan
05-08-2006, 04:32 PM
Copy protection schemes were really popular in the 1980s, but most of the big boys soon learned that treating your customers like criminals was bad business. The use of copy protection declined dramatically and so did piracy. It was useless anyway since the Internet was not widely available yet so hackers had nothing better to do than hack copy protection schemes. Even without electronic distribution, those hacks made their way around to world to anyone that wanted them.

The bottom line is that severe user restrictions like dongles and limiting to one or two machines only hurts legitimate users. The pirates will use only hacked versions. And those hacks become immediately available to everyone around the world through the Internet. The dongle is one of the main reasons I continue to look at LightWave competitors. I hate being treated like a criminal- the dongle feels like one of those ankle bracelets they give to parolees.

I worry about my LightWave dongle because I use it on a laptop and have to remove and reinsert it at least daily. The connector is already bent a little bit after just a few months.

I have resisted upgrading to Adobe CS2 for the same basic reason. I like having CS1 on every machine I own and I can use any machine that is convenient to me without asking anyone or finding a dongle or reregistering. I always buy the software I use and I don't pirate it out to others. The ultimate is applications that provide both Mac and PC versions and allow you to use on any machine of any type as long as it is the same licensed user. I tend to support companies much more faithfully when they respect their legitimate users.

-Jeff

habaņero
05-08-2006, 06:05 PM
It can be a good idea to use a small Usb extension if you plug it into machines that you move around or where it could get hurt. It is a very strange case if it was to break then, probably more seldom than HD crash.

I think the point of the dongle these days isn't as much to "stop piracy" as it is to obstacle legitimate users maybe in a studio environment to install the program on "just another machine", or home users a full working one on their friends machine. It probably doesn't change much for people at the ends of the legitimate/pirate scale, but I can see an advantage of there being more of a line between legitimate and pirate use, that it isn't a smooth gradient so to say ...

Aout any other copyprotection scheme I know of doesn't offer similar advantages or liberty like the dongle one, neither to users or plugin developers which it also protects. Like network rendering with Fprime, or the opportunity of installing LW from memorystick to a friends machine or internet cafe and run it with all my own setups after like 5 minutes ... Then I am a travelling chap, I guess I get to notice the upsides more.

JeffRutan
05-08-2006, 06:28 PM
I still believe a company paranoid about piracy will ultimately be hurt by severe measures to try to prevent it. They only cause inconvenience and annoyance to their legitimate customers. The biggest problems are in China and such countries where the majority of software is hacked and pirated. However, hack-proofing the software would not motivate them to pay for it. I believe in the long run net profit from software is maximized with more open license policies. OS software is legitimately tide to a single machine, but applications should be unlimited licensed to a single user (any number of machines used by that one person, and even multiple at the same time).
-Jeff

Captain Obvious
05-08-2006, 06:36 PM
I know it's somewhat of an anathema to mention them around here, but I really like Luxology's approach. I can download the complete application to any computer, and download a license file along with it, to use wherever the heck I feel like, and the app doesn't need to connect to the internet to verify the license or anything. As long as it's just you*using your license, it's legal and everything. Awesome.

And their pretty-much-unlimited demo version is also a great thing. If it wasn't for that, I probably would not have bought the app at all.

randomnumbers
05-08-2006, 06:39 PM
A hospital I used to work at used a lot of high end CAD software (CATEA, ProEngineer, etc). These can cost hundreds of thousands of dollars with all the bells and whistles.
Their copy protection bonds to the mac address of the network card in the machine.
This works great until you blow a network card... But then they just check your name/address/purchase order number against their customer database and you're up and running again in an hour or so.

randomnumbers
05-08-2006, 06:40 PM
Oooh and if the dongle was also a half gig memory stick....

..... Now *that* I would like.

Lamont
05-08-2006, 06:49 PM
You think a dongle is severe form of anti-piracy? You should hang out with Discreet folks for a while. I like when my 50 digit number doesn't work and I have to wait for next business day to get the info I need.

Or buy a new comp with your Maya Lic. Install a new wireless network card and watch it grind to a halt. Nice. I like that (a good thing it's not my problem...).

Ok, and even if you can DL the key file, so what? You have to get something from somewhere. Take it machine to machine? A USB dongle/CD or whatver will be needed to transfer.

Long live the dongle. I like being able to install my software and use it right away. Copy and paste a line of text from an email and let it fly.

Better than Discreet, who assumes you're a thief after 3~4 installs.

And if you don't agree with the EULA, or if you don't like the copy protection scheme then don't buy the software. Easy right?

If you bust your dongle, stop cryin', own up to your clumsyness and buy a new one for $35. Better than forking out a grand (or more) for a lost serial (Discreet...).

colkai
05-09-2006, 03:16 AM
Oooh and if the dongle was also a half gig memory stick....
..... Now *that* I would like.
Half a gig? Nahh, make it 2 gig, then I could keep LW and my content on the dongle - Everywhere you go, always take the Waving with you. :p

Martin Adams
05-09-2006, 03:32 AM
Hi chance that this might be mis-information, but I'm sure I remember seeing a product that would allow a USB device to be shared amongst other computers, without the need to "switch" the device manually. Kind of like a network printer.

I wonder if that would work with one USB dongle....

radams
05-09-2006, 03:33 AM
The activation process I am talking about is a one-time thing: when you install the software, not every time you run the program -- that would get annoying REALLY quickly! What happens with Adobe and Macromedia is that they serialize the software to that machine, contact their server with the code, then send an unlock code back to your machine that gets written (somewhere mysteriously!) on your hard drive -- then you can "use" their license.

First this requires an internet connection...to even start the app... There are many production systems NOT connected to the internet. Plus what happens when your system crashes or have a hard drive failure...guess what...that serialized app will no longer work cause to them you didn't unserialize it to put it on the repaired system or new system that replaces it ...I MUCH prefer the dongle to travel with ME and to be used and ANY system I wish to use no matter if it is on the internet or not...or if it is after a repair or new system...it follows me...rather than me follow them...BTW, after having two system crashes Adobe demanded that I pay for a new license to Photoshop CS2...it took two weeks to have them resend a new authorization setup...otherwise I would have lost my PS license...due to the crashes...THAT STINKS...I told Adobe, I guess I stick with CS or 7 and you can then give me my money back on CS2...it is a scam in my mind they way that they and others serialize then demand you add licenses when it is even on the same system...

Cheers,

Martin Adams
05-09-2006, 04:10 AM
Here's the reference for the USB sharing thingy:
http://www.engadget.com/2006/04/17/multiswitch-hub-will-allow-lan-less-usb-sharing/

habaņero
05-09-2006, 05:06 AM
"Hi chance that this might be mis-information, but I'm sure I remember seeing a product that would allow a USB device to be shared among other computers, without the need to "switch" the device manually. Kind of like a network printer.

I wonder if that would work with one USB dongle...."

I'd predict about no chance. If it networked over wifi it'd need special port drivers for the safenet drivers, and you aren't allowed to change those ... If it used Usb extensions to multiple machines they would likely collide. You could though just have lots of long usb cables and an switch or just have them at your main rig if the purpose is to set up Fprime rendering.

One point about the company treating us as criminals is that Newtek is also trusting us a little, particularly with as stable a program as 9 it is feasible to do the same you can do with Modo, have 2-3 people sharing a dongle in a studio, just sending it around if there is a crash. Its only off site installations they want to make "physical" problems for, and I find it a convenience to not have to uninstall those.

I think Modo is loosing real money on their solution going too far in trusting people, but they are getting a marketing value as well. There's a difference between a cracked edition and a copy with a licence on it in its traceability and it sort of prevents further spreading, but as far as I understand there are entirely cracked versions of Modo as easily available as the ones for Newtek, I am not sure if they are getting much of a change for their pirate users, I think they are getting more legit customers at the price of more "legitimate" piracy. I don't think I or anyone know the extent of both factors, but I have a suspicion that it aint so many people where licencing was the deciding factor, that the tool set and price is more important in the end.

I agree though completely with Jeff that going to far in treating customers suspiciously and particularly in communications or with heavy handed tactics against paying customers, its a serious offense that could turn a person that is advocating your product into a un-salesperson. Like the examples mentioned here. It also generally will mean the person will locate a pirate version, something for which I doubt there would even would be a good legal case against for as long as one owns a licence for the product. And so you taught a person that likely wouldn't consider pirate software where to find it, and to feel good about using it ... From what I have heard though, Newtek won't treat you bad if you get dongle problems.

I'd love to have a dongle though with 2 GB and made of titanium or brushed aluminium, it'd solve the two issues with having it on the keychain like I do. Just a nice geometric and proportional rounded shape in aluminium with discrete styling and maybe an orange and tiny led, it'd be very nice! :)

JeffRutan
05-09-2006, 10:58 AM
Now if the dongle also contained all of the LW programs, content, upgrades, patches and third-party plug-ins as well as space for my working files, and I could run from the dongle on any machine, then we would really have something! I would certainly pay an extra $100 USD to get a dongle like that!
I think maybe you guys have a seriously good idea there now!
-Jeff

Chuck
05-09-2006, 01:16 PM
If you bust your dongle, stop cryin', own up to your clumsyness and buy a new one for $35. Better than forking out a grand (or more) for a lost serial (Discreet...).

If the dongle dies or breaks due to normal use (basically, anything where you still have the tiny little carcass of the deceased to send back to us), that's free replacement. The fee occurs in situations where the dongle was stolen or destroyed by some event that you would expect to be covered by insurance - fire, flood, tornadoes, etc., and where you don't have the dongle to return but can supply verification of the loss, such as police or fire report or insurance claim. Where many companies insist that you or your insurance company need to purchase a new license at full price in these situations, we make allowance for replacement of the hardware and materials at a nominal fee instead.

Apologies, had to remove your other post! :)

joeldberry
05-09-2006, 06:29 PM
First this requires an internet connection...to even start the app... There are many production systems NOT connected to the internet. Plus what happens when your system crashes or have a hard drive failure...guess what...that serialized app will no longer work cause to them you didn't unserialize it to put it on the repaired system or new system that replaces it ...I MUCH prefer the dongle to travel with ME and to be used and ANY system I wish to use no matter if it is on the internet or not...or if it is after a repair or new system...it follows me...rather than me follow them...BTW, after having two system crashes Adobe demanded that I pay for a new license to Photoshop CS2...it took two weeks to have them resend a new authorization setup...otherwise I would have lost my PS license...due to the crashes...THAT STINKS...I told Adobe, I guess I stick with CS or 7 and you can then give me my money back on CS2...it is a scam in my mind they way that they and others serialize then demand you add licenses when it is even on the same system...

Cheers,

I disagree here: you can call the number given to you to activate the software without being connected to the Internet. Adobe/Macromedia doesn't assume everyone has an Internet connection. It tells you this right there in the installation program.

Either way (calling the number or using the Internet), after activated, it doesn't require an Internet connection. I use Adobe and Macromedia software on my two computers wherever and whenever I want, whether they are connected or not. It's true. I do. They work just fine without being connected to the Internet.

I am sorry that you had a bad experience with Adobe. I have had nothing but positive experiences with them, like I said, even when I formatted my hard drive, forgetting to 'deactivate' my software. I guess every person's mileage may vary, but I, for one, don't have any problems with the serializing activation.

Dongles are okay. A bit antiquated, though. And I understand why Newtek uses them: it's true, according to the license, we paid for use of one license, and that's what we get. One dongle enforces one license. Maybe they should just rewrite their license and allow two uses per license? :thumbsup:

But until that happens (if it happens), the dongle is what we have. My only real reservations about the dongle are a) needing it for a laptop presentation and going off and forgetting it left in a desktop, or b) inserting it and removing it too many times, wearing out both the ports and the dongle itself (over a period of time, mind you).

Other than that, I don't have any problem with any anti-piracy techniques Newtek choose to use. I agree that they have spent who knows how many $millions$ over the years developing Lightwave to where it is, and they have a right to protect their development investment...

Bog
05-09-2006, 06:50 PM
I don't complain about having to carry my door keys with me.

Smeg, I lost 'em on Sunday, had to borrow a ladder from a neighbour and scale the house then fling myself three clean-air feet at the windowledge and pray to $unspecified_deity that my 200lbs of bulk wouldn't just rip the window out of it's socket as I levered myself over it.

If I had a car, I wouldn't complain about having to carry my car key.

I don't overly whinge about carrying my laptop's power supply with me.

The real protection in the dongle isn't with NewTek, to be honest. It's in the third-party providers. ParticleStorm, the whole suite of Worley plugins, Relativity, Surface Effectors... so many of the Hardcore User's 3rd Party plugins mate with the Dongle for licencing. To be really productive with LW, you need a few extra bits. You need Full Sasquatch, you need FPrime, you really want G2. You can't really compete without 'em.

And also, to be honest, to be pro you need NewTek behind you. You need to be able to say "This is a bug, can you look at this?" and "This could be better if you did $feature. How about it?"

Yes, you can get cracked copies of things - but getting them all working together? G'luck, bub. So yeah, the dongle works.

I'd rather not have it - of *course* I'd rather not have it. The panicked pocket-patting after a day on-site at a client? Or worse, after a few beers after a day on-site at a client? The times I've been burgled? The times I've turned up with 20 kilos of kit hanging out of my Chandelier of Gear and left my dongle at home? GAH!

But we all knew it would be dongle-protected when we bought it. We paid for our ignition key - and we can leave installs everywhere we need, turn the key, and the engine just starts. Try that with a Mondeo.

habaņero
05-09-2006, 06:56 PM
" inserting it and removing it too many times, wearing out both the ports and the dongle itself (over a period of time, mind you)."

If you worry about this, you could use a small usb extension, it'll protect against breakage as well. There's nothing Newtek can do about people forgetting things, be it the dongle, their car keys or to save the passes for their nightly ... A door key is a bit antiquated as well but a proven concept, even though it has exactly the same problems as you mention.

I think the design could be further optimized though to minimize them. Maybe Newtek could make a competition for the design of a New dongle! It'd be real interesting to see something milled or molded from LW output! Maybe even in two versions, one with the 2 Gb and the titanium ... :D I would totally pay upwards of the 100$ or more for it as well, it totally wouldn't have to be reasonably priced!

Bog
05-09-2006, 06:58 PM
To be honest, I'd pay extra for a Dongle/RAMStick that I could whuck a tolerable-size content dir on. Blued steel with backlit blue for the LW Swirl, please :)

joeldberry
05-09-2006, 07:18 PM
" inserting it and removing it too many times, wearing out both the ports and the dongle itself (over a period of time, mind you)."

If you worry about this, you could use a small usb extension, it'll protect against breakage as well. There's nothing Newtek can do about people forgetting things, be it the dongle, their car keys or to save the passes for their nightly ... A door key is a bit antiquated as well but a proven concept, even though it has exactly the same problems as you mention.

I think the design could be further optimized though to minimize them. Maybe Newtek could make a competition for the design of a New dongle! It'd be real interesting to see something milled or molded from LW output! Maybe even in two versions, one with the 2 Gb and the titanium ... :D I would totally pay upwards of the 100$ or more for it as well, it totally wouldn't have to be reasonably priced!

Yeah, that new thumbprint verification dongle sounds sweet! Yeah -- nobody can use my software but me, baby!!! :D

Bog
05-09-2006, 07:23 PM
You can lift a thumbprint from most thumbprint scanners with a Gummi bear.

To be honest, if there must be security, I'd like it to cost more than a penny to defeat.

joeldberry
05-09-2006, 08:40 PM
You can lift a thumbprint from most thumbprint scanners with a Gummi bear.

To be honest, if there must be security, I'd like it to cost more than a penny to defeat.

Yeah, but, can you lift someone's retina with a gummy bear? :stumped:

Bog
05-10-2006, 01:40 AM
Yeah, but, can you lift someone's retina with a gummy bear?

Probably. But only the once... ;)

Liberator
05-10-2006, 10:18 AM
All sorted with [transmission garbled - text lost in transit ;) ] now. Emailed [email protected] instead of registrations and got it sorted in a couple of hours :)

Just those git's at Eyeon to sort out now...

Liberator
05-10-2006, 10:19 AM
Doh, double post