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View Full Version : Lightwave Discovery... Yet Again... What has to happen Newtek???



Imatk
05-07-2006, 05:12 PM
You know I've posted about this subject before.

I am now posting again. Honestly because I truly do want Newtek, Chuck Baker, and ANYONE who can for ONE MOMENT act on this issue that is sooooo far overdue that it's absolutely ridiculous and shameful.

I get many e-mails from people who are looking to get into 3d either for a living, or hobby etc.

And I generally try to send them Newtek's way to check out Lightwave. But you know if they can't use your product to demo they probably won't buy it.

Here is a VERY VERY VERY VERY (did I say VERY??) simple solution.

Post a link on your homepage.

I'll even give you the HTML so your web guy doesn't have to code it:

<a href="ftp://ftp.newtek.com/pub/Patches/LightWave_Windows/lw75d/LW75dPCUpdate.exe">Lightwave
Demo Version</a>

OR you could simply post this text SOMEWHERE on your homepage:

ftp://ftp.newtek.com/pub/Patches/LightWave_Windows/lw75d/LW75dPCUpdate.exe


I would recommend the HTML link though but for GOD'S SAKE put SOMETHING up there!!!!

I believe the future of this company, HONESTLY, depends on it.

You want more money? Want more sales? Want more people to buy your product so that those of us who use it can benefit from your good fortune?

DO THIS!

Ok I'm never posting about this again. I have before a couple times, and I will not ever again. I'm tired of trying Newtek. If I could bill you I would.

It is now up to you Newtek. It's up to you. I've basically done the job for you here in this post. A simple copy and paste. I can even make you a little logo if you want :bangwall:

And perhaps it's up to eveyone else who uses this product to complain. I don't know. I'm really not sure what it will take to get this company to TRY and bring in new people.

Here is the said e-mail I just recieved from an aspiring 3d artist after I found the link for him:

Wow, thank you SO much for that lightwave demo! I
NEVER would have found it, i searched high and low for
that! I do actually like the interface though, it's
not very "pretty" as you say but it's not as
cluttered. The screenshots of the interface reminded
me of the Blender interface, and i HATE the blender
interface. But thanks so much man because i think i
will go and get lightwave, but only after i check out
a few tutorials first. THANKS!

Justin

And if you doubt the authenticity of the e-mail Newtek... Chuck... anyone... shoot me an e-mail my website is in my sig... I'm done.

paulhart
05-07-2006, 05:44 PM
I too have had people wonder about getting a demo version, (like the other @#$#%^& software companies) since I am presenting Lightwave, and recommending it to others. It should be simple, right in your face easy, front page stuff. I would love to see someone (?????) from Newtek, take care of this and post a thank you to you for reminding them, and making it extra easy. I boggles the mind that this isn't always in front of the priority list!!!! I appreciate your suggestion, and I have linked people to the address that you posted, since there is no other.....
Paul

ShawnStovall
05-07-2006, 05:56 PM
I know that you can request a tril of LightWave to be maild to you but it would be a lot less hassel to just download a demo off the internet. Almost every other profesinal 3D website I have ever been to has a free demo and I'm really surprised that NewTek hasn't done this yet.

pauland
05-07-2006, 06:29 PM
Head, wall, against, banging and brick come to mind..

hrgiger
05-07-2006, 07:51 PM
It has been mentioned several times that once Lightwave 9 arrives in the next month or two, that a demo will finally be available.

T-Light
05-07-2006, 08:36 PM
HRGiger-

It has been mentioned several times that once Lightwave 9 arrives in the next month or two, that a demo will finally be available.
Not only a demo but a full time limited demo rather then point, scene, render limited demo:)

GandB
05-07-2006, 09:41 PM
I know when I first checked out Newtek (as you can see by the number of my posts, versus my actual join date), I couldn't find any info about a demo anywhere (hard-copy or download). Someone mentioned to me that I should actually call Newtek for the demo; so I did, and it was mailed to me. But I agree, it should be front page stuff (and downloadable). But waiting for it in the mail seems to take quite a bit of time as well.

-Keith

Intuition
05-08-2006, 12:25 AM
Hey Jamie, come back to Eden FX fer cryin out loud!

ok, thats off my chest....

I know that many people here on the forum help direct possible customers to what I would call the "Unofficial demo". Heck a few even have it linked in thier signature.

It is odd that I can get Maya and 3d studio demos pretty easy every time I wanna try thier new releases.

I've been with Lightwave since 4.0 day 1 so I never really think about a demo. Yet I do hear people saying they tried Max and Maya but can't seem to find a Lightwave demo. Even my younger brother had mentioned this to me when he bought his new computer.

Chuck and CO. should jump on this idea since it is pretty much standard with most all other 3d software ( i.e. Newtek's competition ).

You and I both know that when you sit someone down with Maya, 3D studio and Lightwave that most people gel to Lightwave quicker since its the interfaces (modeler or Layout) are the most user friendly of the major apps.

I think maybe this post will be enough of a ripple to make change.

If not, I'll buy the beer next time we get Pizza :thumbsup:

So...Please Chuck, save Jamie from the horrible fate of free beer!

WhiteBoy
05-08-2006, 02:02 AM
NewTek really does need to be more aggressive. And I'm not just talking about demos, I'm talking about their general marketing strategy... or lack thereof.

LightWave is a fantastic piece of software. Let people know about it!

pauland
05-08-2006, 02:20 AM
It has been mentioned several times that once Lightwave 9 arrives in the next month or two, that a demo will finally be available.

But how many people looking for the demo *now* will be trawling the forums about this? How many of them will be bothered to wait or investigate further? I've spotted mention of the demo version on the LW9 FAQ.

Really there should be a prominent mention of the LW discovery edition and how you can get it, with plenty of encouraging words to really make you want to try LW. The current situation is absurd.

Matt
05-08-2006, 03:01 AM
I did read somewhere on this site either a post from Chuck or Jay that when LW9 is out they plan to release a demo. Without the current Discovery mode limitations.

So maybe they're waiting for that.

But in the meantime, why not post a link to a demo, then have a page saying it will be available soon, if you want to be notified of it's release then fill in this email form.

Just a thought, but I do agree with Imatk, it's simply a missed opportunity from a marketing viewpoint, it's may even be misconcieved that NewTek have something to hide?

pauland
05-08-2006, 03:10 AM
But in the meantime, why not post a link to a demo, then have a page saying it will be available soon, if you want to be notified of it's release then fill in this email form.

Absolutely. They could even put in the support number if they really are shipping out CDs by post. If nothing else, they could at least capture contact details to send out the demos in the future. They could even mail out a small discount voucher to keep the interst of those patient enough to wait.

A lot of people who don't know Newtek would wonder what kind of company it is that doesn't have a demo of their product.

Sarford
05-08-2006, 04:19 AM
NewTek really does need to be more aggressive. And I'm not just talking about demos, I'm talking about their general marketing strategy... or lack thereof.

LightWave is a fantastic piece of software. Let people know about it!


I'm not harrasing you WhiteBoy, just wanted to cut NewTek some slack. NewTek did several double page articles in 3Dworld last year (several months in a row, maybe they still do it, I don't know).

The articles were the (edited) user-profiles on NewTek-europe. The articles were designed in the grid of the magazine so they apeared to be editorial articles. There was just a little line at the top of the article stating that this was an advertorial.

In my view that is good marketing, every month showing people what cool things are made with Lightwave.

Making a demo available is good marketing too, but from what I've read in tis thread thats gonna be taken care of in a few months :)

regards, Simon

mattclary
05-08-2006, 06:36 AM
NewTek has been saying that "a demo is coming" for a few years now. I'll believe it when I see it. And I'll believe the resurrection of Inspire when I see it also. :devil:

Chuck
05-08-2006, 08:45 AM
For those to whom it may be a comfort - :)

To confirm our previous statements, yes, our Discovery Edition will be very much different when 9.0 launches, and will be available by download. As a matter of fact the work on the DE is in progress at the moment. The original DE features are still in place, and that mode is how the software will operate when there is no dongle and the software has not been activated with the new 30-day DE key. With the 30-day DE key, the software does everything except network rendering. No watermarks, point limits, etc.

mav3rick
05-08-2006, 10:17 AM
i hatte to discover..... its like driving car with no real parts:)

>>Nighthawk<<
05-08-2006, 04:30 PM
So where can we get this Discovery Edition? Is the ftp://ftp.newtek.com/pub/Patches/Lig...5dPCUpdate.exe link the most recent version? Guess I'll have to download it and find out. Looking forward to testing lightwave out.
----
Edit: Wow this this is tiny? Looks like that the 7.5 DE huh? Guesss that's a good place to start. now to find some tutorials...

Zane Condren
05-08-2006, 04:34 PM
For the latest version please emailyour full shipping address and phone number to [email protected]

pauland
05-08-2006, 04:48 PM
For the latest version please emailyour full shipping address and phone number to [email protected]

It's all very well posting the information here - it should be accessible directly from the Newtek front page. The info is totally wasted here, although I appreciate the good intention.

Paul

Imatk
05-09-2006, 01:24 AM
I agree with Paul. An e-mail address buried in this thread is not exactly visible.

And I'm glad you guys are doing something for 9 Chuck.

But wouldn't it make sense to advertise what you have now?

Read that e-mail I posted at the beginning of this thread. How many other people do you think try to find a demo and simply give up and move on to say... Alias (well Autodesk now I suppose) or Max etc?

And this was a person who was truly interested in Lightwave not someone on the fence... and he basically had given up.

Put the 7.5 discovery up there for the time being. We all know it's going to be a while before the 9 demo version is available.

And even if it's not... what would be worse? Having an older version of the software to demo or having no version at all?

(and yes as Casey said... save me!)

GandB
05-09-2006, 09:22 PM
I don't want to be instigating anything; but I used the link on the main page to order the demo (with some kind of advert DVD) a number of weeks ago now. How long does it take to get it in the mail? I'm in Michigan.

-Keith

Silgrin4D
05-10-2006, 06:31 AM
For those to whom it may be a comfort - :)

To confirm our previous statements, yes, our Discovery Edition will be very much different when 9.0 launches, and will be available by download. As a matter of fact the work on the DE is in progress at the moment. The original DE features are still in place, and that mode is how the software will operate when there is no dongle and the software has not been activated with the new 30-day DE key. With the 30-day DE key, the software does everything except network rendering. No watermarks, point limits, etc.

OK, I expect it`s planned to be a classical DE that can be turned into full version for one month? Nice idea:)

I still use sth Maxon provides apart from their current demo: It`s an old, although almost fully functional version given for free. C4D 6 was released on magazine cover CDs some years ago, it`s only limitation was render size reduced to some 800x600... and old age:) It tremendously increased the interest in C4D. The same was done with Vue 3.1. Just wondering if NT could do sth similar with LW... Say, 7.0 with render size reduced to 800x600 with an option of getting full ver for some small amount of money... Maxon took ca. S100 for converting C4D 6 CE into full CE+. I still use it and I`m quite happy with it. Just dreaming:)

Cheers, LightWavers!

pauland
05-10-2006, 07:24 AM
I downloaded 2D software about a year ago. The company sent me an email welcoming me to the trial and assigning a specific support person who would help me with any problems - that's right an email for a specific person. i even had emails for the next three months asking me how things were going and providing little tips on using the software. It impressed me, though I wasn't quite so keen on the software. Just an idea Newtek..

Jockomo
05-10-2006, 02:32 PM
LMAO @ Newtek

What part of
"PUT A BIG FAT FREAKING LINK ON THE LIGHTWAVE HOME PAGE "do you guys not get?


I just send people to blender3d.com now. At least they can find the download link there.

Kuzey
05-11-2006, 03:52 AM
I'm sure they will, but I think they are waiting on the best and greatest version of LW first.


But having the link up now would be cool.

Kuzey

GandB
05-12-2006, 03:06 PM
I don't want to be instigating anything; but I used the link on the main page to order the demo (with some kind of advert DVD) a number of weeks ago now. How long does it take to get it in the mail? I'm in Michigan.

-Keith

So I'll take that as a "not coming" then.

Chuck
05-12-2006, 05:07 PM
It's all very well posting the information here - it should be accessible directly from the Newtek front page. The info is totally wasted here, although I appreciate the good intention.

Paul

The button on the Main LightWave page that says "LightWave DVD" goes to a form to request the Demo Reel DVD and the Discovery Edition CD. Though a lot of folks use it, it could definitely be clearer what the intent is, so I've sent a couple of suggestions to the marketing and web staff on making a larger and more informative banner to replace the button.

pauland
05-12-2006, 05:53 PM
Hi Chuck,

My first thought was "What is Chuck talking about?" because I've never seen that button. After a bit of investigation I can see why.

If I go to the Newtek Homepage (see the first bitmap) in red I have ringed the main lightwave links and they all go to LW9 information, talk about the beta, etc and there's no mention of a LW trial at all. Virtually all your new users are going to take this route, and just about anyone else interested in LW.

If the user is persistent they might start looking through the menu system (but why would they? surely they've already looked at the LW info?) and there's a link under products. Does it link to the same LW information? - no it goes off to a completely different LW page. No obvious sign of a LW trial there either, but tucked away at the bottom of the page is a LW DVD button, on my browser it's almost lost because the page is so long. For most people, they may never see it because the don't scroll the page.

I think have two different sets of pages for LW is a mistake. On every LW related page the LW DVD button should be present and in a high-up position so it can't be missed.

At the very least the homepage should have a direct link to the LW DVD button (as per my fake mock-up). Having a "LW9 more info" and "LW DVD" button is confusing and I think the "LW DVD" button should really be "Free LW trial and showreel DVD". At the moment it's rather shy about mentioning a trial at all - the only place a LW trial is ever mentioned is as a tickbox buried in the form. It doesn't even tell me there is a trial until I'm most of the way through the form about requesting a showreel.

Chuck it aint easy to find there is a LW trial.

Paul

GandB
05-12-2006, 07:03 PM
That's the button I pushed, and the form I filled out to get the DVD/Demo. Am I talking to myself here?

pauland
05-12-2006, 07:22 PM
That's the button I pushed, and the form I filled out to get the DVD/Demo. Am I talking to myself here?

I can understand your frustration.

GandB
05-12-2006, 07:34 PM
Normally the process is that the potential customer expresses interest in a product, then the company endeavors to show said potential customer why their product is what they're looking for. It would've helped if the page that displayed the information for the Demo/DVD (hidden as it was), also stated that it would take at least 3-4 weeks to get a response in the mail or otherwise.

What I don't have to do is sit around much longer, asking where this package is; there are other products out there. I'll test their responsiveness.

-Keith

Steve Reeves
05-13-2006, 12:47 AM
Maybe there are reasons that NT don't currently have a demo available online - some that occur to me are (and I could be very wrong!):

1. Latest demo build is 7.5 - a long way behine current release. Not sure I would demo my old stuff. NT are doing quite a lot of work with LW, gearing it up for the next part of it's life in the rapidly changing 3D software market. Maybe they just feel it is not appropriate until v9 is out and the world can see what their true product is like. You could undo some of this good new work by releasing an 'old hat' demo version.

2. Sales Technique. By asking for a demo from Newtek direct then NT are in a position to follow this sale up and support the individual. Getting potential client details is always important and often done in none software sales environments.

3. Piracy. Maybe the 7.5 build could be hacked relatively easily. With a free download and an available hack could damage the income stream and god knows what else in the future.

4. The limitations of the demo aren't very useful to the non-3d newbie. I understand that this will change with the v9 demo. Presumably a lot of people who want to "make a scene" ;) know what they are doing. A point limited demo is unlikely to help them.

5. Maybe it is a matter of resource - getting v9 done being deemed a higher priority than a coding a demo of version 8. Maybe we assume that making a demo is easy from a coding point of view? Not ideal maybe but this is business after all and compromises sometimes have to be made.

6. Dunno - run out of ideas :)

Don't get me wrong, I love LW and I want to see LW promoted as much as possible as well - but I was just thinking from the other perspective. I for one beleive that NT are going in the right direction with the increased amount of user involvement, 3rd party involvement and all that which will in turn help their reputation and bring in sales that way.

We'll see I guess - just some thoughts from someone who has been awake for oooh, about 5 mins now. I am a slow typist :)

Have a great day all.

GandB
05-13-2006, 09:36 AM
Forget it then; I'll just check out XSI. I don't have time for a place that ignores you.

-Keith

Steve Reeves
05-13-2006, 12:15 PM
As of course is your perogative! If a company ignored me I would do the same.

For the record, my post was a general contribution to the thread rather than a direct response to your specific issues with Newtek.

Best of luck whatever you decide.

Regards

GandB
05-13-2006, 12:45 PM
I know your post wasn't directed at myself; I responded after seeing a NewTek Rep. come on after my posts, and pretty much ignore me. That just doesn't sit too well with me. Thanks for the words of encouragement though, Steve.

-Keith

pauland
05-13-2006, 01:29 PM
In fairness to Newtek, Zane Condren did say that emailing [email protected] with your details would get a DVD sent out, even if you weren't addressed specifically.

Paul

GandB
05-13-2006, 01:39 PM
OK, then does that mean that the button they have in the main page is useless? Sorry, but I don't do the leg-work in order to give someone my money. I was pretty enthusiastic about joining the gang here, but it just doesn't look like it's going to happen. If they're OK with losing potential customers, then that's all I need to know.

-Keith

GandB
05-13-2006, 02:27 PM
Well I took your advise Paul. I e-mailed the address you gave above, and let them know that I wished to be taken off any mailing lists. I also let them know that if they haven't sent the Demo/DVD yet, then they shouldn't bother. Thanks Paul; and take care everybody, this really is a great community, I wish I could've taken part in it.

-Keith

Steve Reeves
05-13-2006, 02:43 PM
Hi Keith, the gang here are a real good bunch of folks. I have precisely zero expereience of other 3D application forums but I would wager that this one is one of the best communities out there.

You must do what you feel is right for you of course but one thing I am pretty sure I can promise is lots of help and feeback from the folks on this forum. The demo problem is an issue to be sure but in the long run consider where you'll get the most overall productive and rewarding experience. At the end of the day it's about you getting your job done and having fun at the same time (IMO of course).

Most of us (I would guess) find Newtek to be at the very least a good company on the whole and the software is great. If you haven't already give them a call and give them another chance - if LW is the best application for you then it would be a shame to miss out on it because of some initial problems.

Hope that makes sense without sounding too much like a NT fanboy - in the end it's about the creative side and the fun.

Best wishes (I am a few beers in - so apologies if that lot made no sense whatsoever!)

GandB
05-13-2006, 03:00 PM
I understand where you're coming from, Steve. I'm coming from the frustrations of using Caligari products (TrueSpace/GameSpace) for over a year now. It is time for me to change applications, as I have seen where they're going (if they ever get there is a different story) and I am going in a different direction it seems (Game Development, that includes exporting .X animation).

I liked the look and feel of Lightwave (even after dealing with those colorful Caligari Icons), and the fact that it is established both in CG and in Game Develpopment. If I have to spend a bit more money (in one case it would be significantly more) in order to get an initial response, then that's what I have to do. I'm the Graphics Artist in our tiny company, and my time isn't limit-less (especially with 2 kids). I have to do a lot of prioritization as far as what to spend time on, and what to let sit on the back-burner. I've spent more time than I wanted to trying to find a pipeline that works (we work primarily with Torque, but branch out a bit) when dealing with GameSpace/TrueSpace; I'm trying to shorten that pipline as much as possible.

Thanks for the reply though Steve; take care.

-Keith

Steve Reeves
05-13-2006, 03:21 PM
I hope that you find your ideal solution. Software, whatever it is, is always so complex these days - it is quite a task finding the right package for your needs.

Best wishes, and hope to see you around these parts soon.

Cheers

pauland
05-13-2006, 03:32 PM
Keith,

The Demo situation is ridiculous, but as you can tell LW users, in general, love the product and go out of their way to be helpful. I bought lightwave many years back and always think how lucky I was to choose it in the first place. It's possible to download a LW 7.0 demo, right now directly from Newtek ( the LW7 download functions as a demo if you have no dongle) - I'll look up the download link if you wish.

Ironically I came across a LW7.0 demo disc distrubuted with computer arts, and if you wish, I'll mail it to you.

Don't let your frustrations with Newtek and the Demo let you miss out on a great product. Check out the demos and stuff available on the Newtek site and elsewhere. If you don't know where to look, I'll try and help you out.

Paul

GandB
05-13-2006, 03:38 PM
I appreciate it Paul. I'm on dial-up, and a downloadable version wouldn't work too well right now (I won't have access to high-speed net again for a little while). I went to an area with High-Speed a few days ago and downloaded the demo for XSI, which I'm currently checking out. I used to have an earlier demo disk of LightWave before we moved; I gave up looking for it a couple of days ago (I bought a new computer since that time) though, since I had ordered the new Demo/DVD from NewTek 3-4 weeks ago. I usually go by first impressions when dealing with a company such as this; so far the only positive thing has been this forum.

Thanks again for the offer, but I think I'll give XSI a run right now.

-Keith

Sarford
05-13-2006, 04:02 PM
Hi Keith, you should do what you wanna do ofcourse, but I just wanted to make one more argument in favour of Light Wave.

Light Wave is an incredible value for money if you compare it to the other software packages out there (excluding Blender ofcourse). No other package can beat it. But maybe you don't have to pay it yourself and maybe budget isn't a problem...

Anyhow, goodluck in finding the best solution for you :thumbsup:

Besides, are you from the states or from europe?

GandB
05-13-2006, 04:30 PM
I'm in Michigan, Sarford. One of the reasons I wanted to settle on LightWave is because of the value, the power, and the community; it's unfortunate that the marketing model seems to be doing them in. I am paying for it myself, and I am on a budget (currently). I just finished up my Degree at my University, so being on a budget may not be a problem much longer; as such I may be able to afford that 'other' more pricey app. How much an app. costs doesn't have much to do with my decision however; having an app. that delivers what I need without jumping through hoops does matter.

Like I said though; I won't sit around waiting for someone at marketing to 'grace' me with a demo (not for this long). Thanks for your words though, Sarford.

-Keith

Kuzey
05-14-2006, 07:02 AM
Well, I'm on a dial-up connection and I always download anything and everything I need. So, it might take two hours plus but it's not like it takes two days to download.

Best of luck,

Kuzey

Kuzey
05-14-2006, 07:09 AM
Also, you really jumped onto some elses thread and any response by Newtek would have been generally general. If you wanted a personal response then the best course would have been emailing them first and then post on the forums if you didn't get a reply.

Kuzey

hrgiger
05-14-2006, 07:37 AM
Hey Keith, you're not alone when it comes to the topic of Newtek offering a demo of their latest version. A lot of us users have been harping on it for quite some time now.

While to some extent not having a current usable demo is unexcusable, you have to know some of Lightwave's history. The original creators of Lightwave left Newtek a few short years ago and a lot of Newtek's development left with them to form another software company. This left Newtek wth the task of finding a new development staff and spending the last few years getting them familarized with Lightwave and moving it forward once again. The core of the Lightwave program has been through a long restructuring process and version 9 (which from all indications that I've received) will probably be out within the next month or two, and this newest version will reflect that restructuring of the program. I'm not saying that they shouldn't have had enough time to put togethe a workable demo, but you should at least consider that possibility.

I think Newtek is making good progress in the marketing department and I have received more email and more paper mail on the upcoming version 9 then I have for any of the last three versions before this. There has also been more information made available to us forum users then in any other version before this one. Chuck has stated that starting with version 9, a current demo will finally be made available.

You should obviously try the demo of any software package you are thinking of buying and ultimately the decision is yours, but I think you'll find a much better value with Lightwave then XSI. I played around with the demo of XSI, and I found the learning curve to be substantially steeper. I assume that you are talking about the $500 version of XSI which is very affordable but you have to consider what you are getting. They have essentially released a version of their main product which is feature limited. More importantly, I question its future growth. Any new and innovative features that come to the market will go into their full priced software and not into the version you are looking at, because otherwise, how could they justify people paying for the full priced versions if the $500 budget software was getting all the same things? Lightwave on the other hand has just been restructured to allow for future growth so I guess I'm just saying I ultimately think there is more potential here.

And yes, of course I'm biased. Most people here are...

GandB
05-14-2006, 08:21 AM
There's nothing wrong with being biased towards a product you enjoy. One of the reasons I stayed away from XSI (yes I was talking about getting Foundation) initially was because it lacked an exporter for Torque (Lightwave has had one for some time now).

Kuzey, I'm not sure how I jumped on to someone else's thread, when this thread is discussing the very issue I am having a problem with; could you explain more?

I can understand everyone having to learn the program inside and out, especially when the original developers have went elsewhere. The two things that are bothering me; I asked a question multiple times on this thread, then I was "overlooked" by a NewTek Rep, and it is now closing on the 4th week with no reply from NewTek on the Demo/DVD package I applied for (via their form from the link on the front page). What (as a potential customer) am I supposed to think? I have tried the demo for 3DS Max, XSI, Modo, Silo, 3D Canvas Pro, Houdini (never going to get that one), Maya, Carrara, Hexagon, Cinema 4D, TrueSpace and GameSpace (I now have both), and ZBrush. I haven't had a problem getting a demo, or a followup e-mail (automated or not) from any of them.

Can you see where I am coming from?

-Keith

UnCommonGrafx
05-14-2006, 08:26 AM
Personally,
I think their not sending you a demo was a godsend! What was isn't anymore and the [9] demo would be a better bet and example of what NewTek's LightWave [9] will be.
If the money has to be spent NOW, understood. But if it's a situation where you can wait, I believe it would be a good wait for you.

Good luck, nonetheless.

GandB
05-14-2006, 08:54 AM
Really, I can wait; but the time is getting close. If they are waiting for demo #9, that would be fine....if they'd notify me. This is the sticking point for me: a responsive sales/customer service team.

-Keith

Kuzey
05-14-2006, 08:59 AM
Kuzey, I'm not sure how I jumped on to someone else's thread, when this thread is discussing the very issue I am having a problem with; could you explain more?
-Keith

I'll try....The thread was a general one on the need for a download demo link.
(Yes we need one and it seems we'll get one once LW9 is out, but the download demo link should've been made clear/fixed before. Newtek is kinda in a hard place at the moment, do we create the link and let people think LW7.5 is the latest version or do we wait till v9 is out the door.)

You added a post to the thread hoping to get a personel repsonse.

(The first rule is always to contact Newtek (anybody for that matter) directly by email, not posting on an existing thread as your first course of action. Let them know what's going on...eg it's been two weeks and I'm wondering if the demo has been sent yet etc. Sometimes emails will get lost in the trash as spam etc. etc.)

If that fails then post away or better yet start a new thread, that would attract the right people to your problem.

That's what I was trying to get across :hey:

You seemed to have tested a lot of demos, if I were you I'd wait for the LW9 demo......but that's me.

Kuzey

GandB
05-14-2006, 09:06 AM
Well, I e-mailed them yesterday about it; if I get no response, then I guess I know not to bother here anymore. I wasn't aware there was a process that preceded posting in a thread; it won't happen again.

-Keith

pauland
05-14-2006, 10:07 AM
I wasn't aware there was a process that preceded posting in a thread;

Keith there is no process. It's just that it (should) be a more direct way of getting Newteks attention than hoping they pick up on the forum chat. Yes, I know you shouldn't need to do it and I do know two of Newteks people have posted to this particular thread.

I know a lot of people have urged you to wait, it must be a bit frustrating because currently Newtek have a mighty sweet deal that will end at the end of the month, with freebies included in a LW9 pre-release deal.

Newtek have had a lot of staff out at NAB recently, so your DVD thing and monitoring the forums may have suffered from that.

Lastly, I'd like to say that your experience of getting a Demo DVD isn't the kind of hassle you can typically expect as a LW user. I've never had to call tech support, ever. The forums here and the users really do solve most peoples problems/questions pretty fast.

I suspect that if this wasn't the weekend, you'd have had someone from Newtek picking up on the thread again too.

Personally, I'd like to thank you for making such a strong point about the demo. As a potential user/customer it has a far greater authority than those of us who have already bought product from Newtek.

Paul

kohlrabi_croce
05-14-2006, 10:10 AM
Hey Keith, you're not alone when it comes to the topic of Newtek offering a demo of their latest version. A lot of us users have been harping on it for quite some time now.


You should obviously try the demo of any software package you are thinking of buying and ultimately the decision is yours, but I think you'll find a much better value with Lightwave then XSI. I played around with the demo of XSI, and I found the learning curve to be substantially steeper.

A steeper learning curve does not equate out to being a lesser value. Many
people feel that the steeper learning curve is worth it, in the end.



I assume that you are talking about the $500 version of XSI which is very affordable but you have to consider what you are getting. They have essentially released a version of their main product which is feature limited.


Yes. it's feature limted, but not by that much. In fact, it has most of them.
Foundation is now being labeled "the personal edition," on the website, which means it's enough for one person.

http://www.softimage.com/products/xsi/pricing_and_packaging/model_comparison/Default.aspx



More importantly, I question its future growth. Any new and innovative features that come to the market will go into their full priced software and not into the version you are looking at, because otherwise, how could they justify people paying for the full priced versions if the $500 budget software was getting all the same things?

It seems to be common knowledge that LW has a lot of catching up to do.
You just said so yourself. It can only have more potential after it first catches up, then has something more to offer beyond being as good as the others.


Lightwave on the other hand has just been restructured to allow for future growth so I guess I'm just saying I ultimately think there is more potential here.

I noticed that lightwave 8 only takes up 8 MB on my hard drive, but xsi foundation alone is 663 mb. That's getting close to a gig. I think that
says something right there. It's not just loose code either.
As for potential, softimage has been there from the beginning too, and continues to make advances.


And yes, of course I'm biased. Most people here are...

Yes, of course. it's rather hard to deal with in terms of reasonable
discussion.

kohlrabi_croce
05-14-2006, 10:18 AM
Keith there is no process. It's just that it (should) be a more direct way of getting Newteks attention than hoping they pick up on the forum chat. Yes, I know you shouldn't need to do it and I do know two of Newteks people have posted to this particular thread.

<snip>

Lastly, I'd like to say that your experience of getting a Demo DVD isn't the kind of hassle you can typically expect as a LW user. I've never had to call tech support, ever. The forums here and the users really do solve most peoples problems/questions pretty fast.

I have had the experience of e-mailing customer service and being ignored,
then getting my problems worked out because of contact with Chuck Baker on another forum. So no they are not always right on the ball with customer service. Chuck Baker goes out of his way to be helpful, but customer service is not his job.

Sarford
05-14-2006, 10:36 AM
Too bad you are in the states Keith, customer service is a LOT better here in europe.
When I send a mail I get a reply in two days at the most. They even call you back if that is necesary (even on mobile phone from France!).

And one more plus point, you can install it on whatever machine you want, you get a version for both the pc AND the mac without any aditional costs.

I presonaly never looked at XSI because its only for the PC.

hrgiger
05-14-2006, 04:03 PM
A steeper learning curve does not equate out to being a lesser value. Many
people feel that the steeper learning curve is worth it, in the end.

Who is "many people"? If you're going to argue something, don't speculate, let's hear some facts.
It is merely my opinion when I say that steeper learning curve is a lesser value. If it takes you a year to familarize yourself with the software, then you're not working efficiently. If you can do the same thing with another piece of software in half the time, that my friend is a better value.



Yes. it's feature limted, but not by that much. In fact, it has most of them.
Foundation is now being labeled "the personal edition," on the website, which means it's enough for one person.

Actually, that means THEY think it's enough for one person.



It seems to be common knowledge that LW has a lot of catching up to do.
You just said so yourself. It can only have more potential after it first catches up, then has something more to offer beyond being as good as the others.

I actually didn't say anything about Lightwave having catching up to do, I said that Lightwave has been restructured to allow for future growth. I believe the potential is already there. But the main point I was trying to make was this- Newtek develops some new innnovative feature, it goes straight into Lightwave. XSI develops some new innovative feature, guess where it's going? Not the foundation edition, that's for sure.






I noticed that lightwave 8 only takes up 8 MB on my hard drive, but xsi foundation alone is 663 mb. That's getting close to a gig. I think that
says something right there. It's not just loose code either.
As for potential, softimage has been there from the beginning too, and continues to make advances.

Pehaps it means that XSI has a lot of bloat. But I'm not sure you have your facts straight. My LW8 installation (not even counting content at 1.18GB) is 224MB.

GandB
05-14-2006, 04:16 PM
When I'm looking to purchase a new program I do several things:

1. I look at their Gallery (if they have one); I want to see if people are producing results, and I want to see if anyone has produced Game Art.

2. I look at their forums. This is one of the most important aspects of shopping for a new app., does the everyday user find the program and service from the company acceptable (there's always going to be a few you are unsatisfied and feel they need to smother the forums with their "point of view"). Does the company seem responsive; I can't stress this enough.

3. I look not only at the price of the base program, but how much any plugins, tutorials, and upgrades will cost.

4. Finally, can I get done what needs to get done (does it export static objects and animations properly) without going through an elaborate pipeline to do it? As this concerns time, it is just as valuable as the money I am putting down.

At the moment price is a factor, however since all but 1 of the programs I am looking at are in the same price range...it's a small factor.

-Keith

Intuition
05-14-2006, 04:46 PM
GandB. As a user of pretty much every program I am bummed that you aren't getting a chance at Lightwave. It is the fastest program to learn out of all the major 3d apps and is also the fastest workflow.

I have used XSI some and love it alot. I am assuming that is the other app you are talking about.

There are some great factors to think about when investing time, money and effort into a 3d app and I do agree that company response is a large factor.

Yet, beyond the demo not being available here that I can't say that any other companies are any more responsive then Newtek. Seems an industry standard :( .

Somethings to consider when getting into Lightwave is that F-Prime is really a serious workflow speed imrovement over the already fast Lightwave workflow.

The only problem is that F-Prime is not cheap. But the time you save in developing lighting/surfacing may make the initial buy seem like nothing.

XSI does have a similar previewer but really only benefits from a multiple processor setup.

XSI has the node based surface/shading and something ti keep in mind is that Lw9 has it as well so maybe it would be best to wait until the Lw9 demo comes out. Yet, since that may be anywhere from a couple weeks to (enter decision killer time frame here) then you may need to make a decision before that time.

I've used Lightwave since 4.0 PC (First pc release). Used Maya since 2.5 and used 3d studio max back in its humble beginning, c4d in the last year, and XSI over the last year or so I can say that Lightwave is still the main bread winner when it comes to quick turnaround of content.

XSI and Lightwave aren't really that different of beasts as say, Maya and Lightwave are.

If you haven't seen F-Prime in action maybe you should check out www.worley.com

I don't work for Newtek or Worley. I work in 3d animation and design. Been making my main income from 3d since 1994. Started with Crystal Topaz and then moved to Lightwave in 95. Its been the most productive of the software packages I've used over the years. Maya gets marks for quick physics and nice cloud generation (from thier fluid boxes) but for overall look and speed Lightwave gets the work done and with nice results.

Check the SpinQuad forums for nice examples of day to day Lightwavers. You can see really nice results there.

How much time will you give Lightwave 9 demo becoming available before making a decision?

Since Lw9 will also have some video game making assets available which is different then the demo you may find here of 7 or 8.

pauland
05-14-2006, 04:49 PM
2. I look at their forums. This is one of the most important aspects of shopping for a new app., does the everyday user find the program and service from the company acceptable (there's always going to be a few you are unsatisfied and feel they need to smother the forums with their "point of view"). Does the company seem responsive; I can't stress this enough.

LOL - there's a real irony about this. Your personal experience has been that Newtek are unresponsive and yet I would say that this is experience is atypical of Newtek who really do respond in forums and help people out even though the forums aren't the same as tech support.

The demo issue is an ongoing problem and it looks as though Newtek will put that to bed with LW9.

Sometimes people fall through the cracks - sometimes people here say Newtek hasn't responded to issue XYZ and more often than not it gets a response on the forums and depending on the issue, taken up with the customer. With any software product there are going to be aggrieved people who thinks the vendor can do better, but a stroll through the LW forums will show that the userbase can be positively fanatical about LW.

My point is this: Your experience in getting the Demo indicates that Newtek is unresponsive. I say that this isn't representative of Newtek in general and I will be very surprised if you don't find this out for yourself on Monday. Secondly your concern about the company is understandable ( and I've tried to allay that concern) but the most important asset for Newtek is the LW user community which provides better support for users than any company could alone. If you have a problem then most times it'll get sorted on these forums without involving Newtek. Sometimes users have problems and blame Newtek or the software, only to find it's their video drivers or hardware playing up.

Newtek isn't perfect, Lightwave isn't perfect, but the user community is as perfect as you can get and you can't underestimate how important that is.

It's really sad that this one thing (important as it is) has skewed your view of the company for the worse.

Paul

GandB
05-14-2006, 05:13 PM
Well, Paul; if the one thing that has skewed my view of the company is not being able to get the demo that I filled out the forms for weeks ago, then I'm guilty as charged. I really don't know what else to say; I'm not at fault here. That's great that people rarely fall through the cracks here; but for the person who does fall through the cracks, it feels like 100% failure.

Who knows, maybe I will get an e-mail tomorrow; but I won't apologize for my comments if I do. That's great that the demo issue will be put to bed with version 9; I just wonder why a company that has been around this long ahs finally decided to do what every other 3D company has done. A downloadable demo wouldn't even be a big deal to me, if they could:

A- Send me the demo in a reasonable time-frame.

or

B- Let me know (through some type of communication) why it is being held up; or even put down the approximate delivery date on the form that I filled out with all my personal information.

I don't see what the problem is.

-Keith

hrgiger
05-14-2006, 05:56 PM
Who knows, maybe I will get an e-mail tomorrow; but I won't apologize for my comments if I do.

There should be no need for you to apologize for your comments. If you have indeed fallen through the cracks, the only way a company can rectify the situation and hopefully improve their track record in dealing with the everyday customer (or potential customer in your case) is to take that criticism with the intent to minimize the chance for it to happen again.

The people who have something to complain about usually bring about the most changes, as long as it's done in a proper fashion. (meaning not calling them, giving a big F-U, and not fully explaining your reasoning behind it).

The people who simply praise Newtek (or any company) and defend them on all positions are not really contributing much to the equation. Perhaps this demo situation is one of those things that seriously needs addressed and every voice can help stress the importance of this issue to Newtek on behalf of the Lightwave community.

Believe me, there are a lot of us that really would like to see the demo program brought up to snuff, and I for one, am anxious to see the demo program once LW9 is released. I believe a demo is important in bringing in new buyers and of course as a user of Lightwave, I want Newtek to do well in that regard.

GandB
05-14-2006, 06:19 PM
Well, we'll just have to see how they respond to my e-mail (I referenced this thread for them). Thanks for all the support everyone.

-Keith

kohlrabi_croce
05-14-2006, 06:25 PM
Who is "many people"? If you're going to argue something, don't speculate, let's hear some facts.

I was merely providing an alternate viewpoint. I have seen the
opinion among xsi users that xsi gives greater flexibility and more
control, among other things. You want me to tell you how many
xsi users feel the learning curve is worth it, as opposed to xsi users
who feel the leanring curve is not worth it? Why, what good would
that do?



It is merely my opinion when I say that steeper learning curve is a lesser value. If it takes you a year to familarize yourself with the software, then you're not working efficiently. If you can do the same thing with another piece of software in half the time, that my friend is a better value.


The same job in half the time.....Is that based on fact, those numbers?
Has there been a run-off?



I actually didn't say anything about Lightwave having catching up to do, I said that Lightwave has been restructured to allow for future growth. I believe the potential is already there. But the main point I was trying to make was this- Newtek develops some new innnovative feature, it goes straight into Lightwave. XSI develops some new innovative feature, guess where it's going? Not the foundation edition, that's for sure.

You said that Lw has more potential _because_ it's been restructured for future growth. That does not follow from the facts. I once was on a
bowling team, only because my ex-husband wanted to do this for social reasons. I hate bowling, and I had no experience at it. At the end of the bowling season, I won $75 for being the most improved bowler. That did not mean I really had much potential for bowling. This is like comparing me to the guy that bowls all the time. lives for it, and won first place. It's an extreme example, but you get my drift.



Pehaps it means that XSI has a lot of bloat. But I'm not sure you have your facts straight. My LW8 installation (not even counting content at 1.18GB) is 224MB.

Hm..well I guess I'd better look into why it was only 8 mb. Of course I am not including content. I don't know why you even mention it.

btw, I use both programs.

pauland
05-14-2006, 07:06 PM
I don't see what the problem is.

-Keith

I've given up trying to understand why the issues you've highlighted are a problem for Newtek. As I said before, it's great to see a potential customer highlighting them.

Paul

Jim Plant
05-14-2006, 09:11 PM
Keith,

As Chuck previously stated in this thread, we will have an easily accessible demo version of LightWave 3D v9 very soon after it officially ships. I know many would have liked to see us to do this sooner, but after thoughtfully considering all the various issues involved, this was the decision we made.

As for not responding to your demo request in a timely fashion, that is definitely not a standard of performance with which we are happy. For this you have my personal apology and my assurance that I will look into this first thing in the morning and make sure you get a response from us as soon as possible.

I hope you won't let this lapse keep you from giving us another chance to prove that NewTek is a company worthy of your patronage.

Sincerely,

Jim Plant
President & CEO
NewTek, Inc.

GandB
05-14-2006, 09:32 PM
Well, it's not often that I get addressed personally by the President of a company. Since I see that this is only your 7th post, I can assume you don't make a point of coming here to address things in the forums on a regular basis. This tells me that there is some hope here after all, aside from the fine community on these boards. So I'll await your (Newtek's) reply to my e-mail, and we'll see where things go from there.

Thanks for taking the time to respond.

-Keith Caldwell (Ozark Games, LLC)

hrgiger
05-15-2006, 03:05 AM
I was merely providing an alternate viewpoint. I have seen the
opinion among xsi users that xsi gives greater flexibility and more
control, among other things. You want me to tell you how many
xsi users feel the learning curve is worth it, as opposed to xsi users
who feel the leanring curve is not worth it? Why, what good would
that do?

The same job in half the time.....Is that based on fact, those numbers?
Has there been a run-off?

You were speculating on people's opinions while I was providing a hypothetcal and explaining why a steeper learning curve is of lesser value. I wasn't even suggesting that Lightwave can do the same job in half the time of XSI, I was merely suggesting that ANY app that has a gentle learning curve is of greater value then another that has a steeper learning curve.




You said that Lw has more potential _because_ it's been restructured for future growth. That does not follow from the facts. I once was on a
bowling team, only because my ex-husband wanted to do this for social reasons. I hate bowling, and I had no experience at it. At the end of the bowling season, I won $75 for being the most improved bowler. That did not mean I really had much potential for bowling. This is like comparing me to the guy that bowls all the time. lives for it, and won first place. It's an extreme example, but you get my drift.

You missed the point entirely on this one. I've seen people use horrible car analogies to explain software, but never a bowling one. The use of analogies has just sank to the gutter level, so to speak.
My point was that Newtek has no restrictions on what features they implement into Lightwave because they don't have a tiered app system where they have to decide what feature is available for which users and at what price. While XSI has to provide incentive for people to buy their full priced applications which means limiting the features made available to the base package.



Hm..well I guess I'd better look into why it was only 8 mb. Of course I am not including content. I don't know why you even mention it.

I mentioned it because I wanted to make clear that I was not including any extra material that is sent with Lightwave, only the installed program.

pauland
05-15-2006, 06:30 AM
It kinda feels like the thread has been hijaked from a "Where is the LW demo" to whether LW is better than other software...

hrgiger
05-15-2006, 06:52 AM
Well, that was certainly not my intention. XSI is very capable software, as is Maya, as is Lightwave. I gave my personal feelings and experiences on why I felt Lightwave would be a good choice for someone considering the software and why I think it is a better value for the money involved. If someone such as kohlrabi_croce feels the need to argue when someone gives their opinion, then I will respond accordingly.
I'm glad to see Jim Plant respond, and hopefully he will take care of Keiths request.

GandB
05-15-2006, 08:20 AM
Well, I recieved an email this morning from Zane Condren:

"Keith,

Many of our staff were tied up with NAB over the past month, Last week
we mailed out the demo reel DVDs and today we are mailing out the
discovery edition CDs."

I'm not sur what the NAB is, but is it big enough to keep from filling out orders for a demo (not sure why they are being sent separately)? I don't know; I'm glad that I finally got a response of some sort (due, I imagine, to Mr. Plant's inquiry), but I still find it rather weak.

I'm pushing on with the XSI demo for now (as I have no idea how long it will be until the demo arrives, since it was only just mailed today). There are 3 applications I am currently looking at: XSI, Lightwave, and 3DS Max. All 3 of these have a pipleline that is rather short and solid in terms of getting media into the Torque Engine (although XSI's exporter is still in the works with Matt Summers). Money will be a factor (especially for Max), but I don't believe that spending more money on an application will yield greater/quicker results. Thanks for trying anyway.

-Keith

pauland
05-15-2006, 09:06 AM
That's good news. NAB is a big thing for Newtek and a lot of staff are used to support it - not that's an excuse, but we've already been down that road.

Something else to consider: Newtek has (thus far) always issued point upgrades free of charge and there's no maintenance commitment. Other competitors may have quite high maintenance fees and will not allow you to sell your software licence after you have purchased it (Newtek allows this). Basically what I'm saying the initial purchase price isn't the end of the story.

Have fun with your trials.

Paul

GandB
05-15-2006, 09:24 AM
That's great to hear. Judging from their response (and the fact that I haven't recieved the DVD yet), it'll take at least 1 if not 2 weeks for the demo to get here...that's pretty close to a month and a half from my initial request. That is unacceptable. I'm feeling pretty disillusioned at this point in time. I went from feeling quite "pumped" about using Lightwave for many years (note my "This Community is Great" thread) to my present state, in a almost a months time.

I hope they had a productive time at the NAB, but I was hoping for a bit more than "we were out of the office" as an explaination. Again, take care everybody.

-Keith

GandB
05-15-2006, 11:10 AM
Well....it looks like I'll have to pull my foot out of my mouth after all. I've just been contacted by NewTek, and Mr. Plant has exceeded my expectations of a proper response from any company. I won't say what the response was, but I'll say that I'm quite grateful, and you'll be seeing me around these parts for some time to come.

You now have another loyal advocate of Lightwave. I'm pretty speechless really. Thankyou.

-Keith

colkai
05-15-2006, 11:34 AM
It sounds like you've just experienced what others have, Newtek is one heck of a company and can often surprise you. What is particularly impressive for me is, they don't make a big deal out of it and tend to keep the matter, (whatever it may be), between only the interested parties.
Other companies would make loud noises over it, Newtek are far classier than that. :)

Steve Reeves
05-15-2006, 12:02 PM
Wow! Welcome to Lightwave! :dance:

I am glad that you have worked things out with NT and that you will now have a chance to see what LW can do.

Look forward to chatting on the forum!

Cheers.

GandB
05-15-2006, 12:15 PM
Thanks guys, I'm looking forward to being a productive member.

-Keith

pauland
05-15-2006, 07:45 PM
You now have another loyal advocate of Lightwave. I'm pretty speechless really. Thankyou.

-Keith
Phew.. thank goodness for that.. ;-)

Chuck
05-16-2006, 09:47 AM
LMAO @ Newtek

What part of
"PUT A BIG FAT FREAKING LINK ON THE LIGHTWAVE HOME PAGE "do you guys not get?


I just send people to blender3d.com now. At least they can find the download link there.

The link has been on the main LightWave Page all along, though the incarnation of the button at the time you posted was pretty uninformative, since it said only "LightWave DVD". I asked the marketing staff to change it and they've done so. The text on the new larger button is "Get the LightWave Demo Reel DVD" alternating with "Get the LightWave Discovery Edition CD." The form lets folks request the Demo Reel DVD and the DE CD. It's been there pretty much forever; apologies that the link has not been clear for quite some time as to what was intended.

GandB
05-16-2006, 09:53 AM
I checked it out, and it's pretty clear now (and large). People shouldn't have a problem locating that button.

-Keith

Chuck
05-16-2006, 10:05 AM
GandB, may I add my apologies for your frustrations with the DE request, and I'm very glad to hear that our management and services were able to provide a good resolution for you - and please rest assured that we will do everything possible to insure that we close the gap that this incident made apparent.

GandB
05-16-2006, 10:30 AM
The resolution provided to me was beyond good. I'll be around for sometime now; you can add me to the list of well-received members. Thanks for replying.

-Keith

Signal to Noise
05-16-2006, 12:18 PM
Never mind. My original comment has been answered. :)

Imatk
05-16-2006, 01:06 PM
Thanks Chuck. I'm glad you guys did this. I hope that soon there will be a downloadable version, but I'm REALLY happy that this has been addressed.

I love Lightwave and I'm glad others will have the opportunity to see how great a program it is.

Congrats and keep up the great work!

Kuzey
05-17-2006, 05:01 AM
That's great news Chuck...it's a small detail but will make alot of difference now!!

Maybe, when someone submits the form a copy goes to a person higher up in Newtek, just to keep tabs on...kinda thing:D

GandB, enjoy your new toy :thumbsup: :thumbsup:


Kuzey

GandB
05-17-2006, 08:19 AM
Thanks, I am:)