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3D Kiwi
05-01-2006, 08:49 PM
Surfing the net and found a site which i wont mention that has a cracked version of lightwave 9 beta, Didnt take long i guess.

If someone from newtek wants to pm me i will give them the site.

PS i havent down loaded it, came across it by accident.

jameswillmott
05-01-2006, 09:14 PM
Send it to them anyway... I'm sure they'd be interested.

adrian
05-02-2006, 08:12 AM
Yeah, alert Newtek to this so the site can be closed down asap.

I wonder how many people on these forums are using cracked versions? I would like to think none but I think that may be a little naive.

Talking of cracked/illegal software, I was working with LW on my laptop at work the other day and would you believe it, one of my colleagues actually asked me if I would give him a copy!!!!!!!!!!

Hmmm, let's see... I paid a good 1000 for LW6.5 when it came out, and a cool 400 for the 8 upgrade. Should I give it to him for nothing? Wow, what a hard choice :)

The cheek of some people is astounding...

gjjackson
05-02-2006, 08:35 AM
Well, you could give him a copy, because without a paid dongle he'll be using it in discovery mode. If he likes it he may buy it, then. I'm not sure what NT's policy is on this but it Would seem proper since it runs in discover mode. Newtek should speak on this. It would be a good way for discovery editions to be out there.

adrian
05-02-2006, 08:51 AM
Yes I could have given him a copy only for him to get a crack and......

I neglected to mention he seems to have every software title under the sun in his collection. Why? Who knows... I mean how can you use hundreds of software apps?

He also made it quite clear that he would "crack it" once he had the copy.

mattclary
05-02-2006, 08:52 AM
Well, you could give him a copy, because without a paid dongle he'll be using it in discovery mode. If he likes it he may buy it, then. I'm not sure what NT's policy is on this but it Would seem proper since it runs in discover mode. Newtek should speak on this. It would be a good way for discovery editions to be out there.

Agreed. I have had a few aquaintences who showed interest in CGI, so I gave them copies to run in demo mode. Never amounted to anything, don't know if they ever even loaded it.

jameswillmott
05-02-2006, 09:02 AM
Some people seem to collect them. I know a guy who has virtually every app under the sun, but wouldn't know how to actually use any of them. He keeps them like trophies. Big deal, I could write the names of hundreds of apps on some blank CD's and it would amount to the same...

:(

Para
05-02-2006, 09:19 AM
Surfing the net and found a site which i wont mention that has a cracked version of lightwave 9 beta, Didnt take long i guess.

Some facts which may or may not disturb you:

Firstly, nowadays there's a thing in warez scene called "dupe release". Dupes are most commonly either wrongly labeled (like "Oops, meant to name it lw8 instead of lw9") or include just plain crap (ever heard of stories that goes something along the line "I thought I downloaded a 2 hour movie but instead I got 40 minutes of noise.") A lot of dupe releases actually come from distributors like Sony, MGM, Warner etc. The point is to fill the most common p2p network with dupes to make it very hard to find the real deal.

Secondly, if the beta is actually on public/semi-public p2p site it means it has been cracked and won't have any traces to whom it originated from making it a "safe" release.

Thirdly, most alphas and betas (with exception of really well protected stuff like alpha versions of some OS:s) are known to float around in the deepest core of the warez scene. They just won't give them out for obvious reasons: The core understands that releasing an alpha/beta would make the product look bad and since usually at that point it could be backtraced a lot easier since there usually isn't 10 000+ beta testers and also releasing an alpha/beta would direct the possible moneyflow from the company who made the software to the various criminal entities like Russian mafia.


I personally believe that what you saw was a dupe.

JohnMarchant
05-02-2006, 09:31 AM
Well guys, it will always happen. I reported a site a few weeks ago to Kurtis that had LW9 Beta 1 on it cracked. It is cracked as well. Well he got closed down for a few days but he is back up again. Its a chinese or japanese site. I was looking for tutorials on copernica when it flagged up.

I think if people are going to do it then there is not really much that can be done, for every person working on software copy protection there must be 1000 people working on cracking it. The only really good method is to personalise each copy to the purchaser. I like this idea that way if it is copied they can trace where it comes from.

Thats my 2 pence worth anyway

Regards :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

Titus
05-02-2006, 10:14 AM
The only really good method is to personalise each copy to the purchaser. I like this idea that way if it is copied they can trace where it comes from.

This was done before and failed. If you can crack one copy, then you can crack two copies and compare differences to pull out from the code anything than can comprise the supplier.

mattclary
05-02-2006, 10:33 AM
Having your product available as warez isn't the worst thing that could happen. Max is probably the single most pirated software in the known universe, and yet it seems to do well for Autodesk. I almost think it's part of their marketing plan! It's used so much to create game mods, that when the pirates grow up and get a real job, they already know the product.

CAClark
05-02-2006, 10:55 AM
My 2c is to let them get on with it. Most serious users have their own legit licenses. SOme school kid would never buy lightwave anyway, so who loses out by him using a hooky copy? No-one.

I strongly believe that the instant anything is exposed to the net, it will be compromised some how. Artwork. Applications. Whatever. It's a fact of life these days.

Cheers!

Wickster
05-02-2006, 11:01 AM
Having your product available as warez isn't the worst thing that could happen. Max is probably the single most pirated software in the known universe, and yet it seems to do well for Autodesk. I almost think it's part of their marketing plan! It's used so much to create game mods, that when the pirates grow up and get a real job, they already know the product.
Very true. Piracy seems to be much bigger in schools and universities, where sometimes the teachers encourage students to get copies of a certain software in order for students to do homework at home. I've heard excuses like "It's OK for you not to buy the software because the studio you will work for will provide you the software you need." Sounds reasonable but seems extremely wrong thing to say.

cresshead
05-02-2006, 11:31 AM
when i was teaching 3d [2003-2005] in colleges i strongly advised people to get legit versions..either demo/student or full commercial...and most people actually did in the end..i converted around 10 students to go out and buy lightwave...some got silo, one got max and a few got xsi foundation...only this weekend a fw of my exstudents [i keep in touch] joined my in getting hexagon 2.0 as well!...bargin!

lilrayray77
05-02-2006, 01:57 PM
My 2c is to let them get on with it. Most serious users have their own legit licenses. SOme school kid would never buy lightwave anyway, so who loses out by him using a hooky copy? No-one.


Cheers!


Not entirley true. I am a "school kid" and I have purchased lightwave (accedemically for now, but I hope to get the commercial update with 9!). Most kids around my age, though, wouldn't be able to make heads or tales of cgi. But you are right perhaps about nobody loses if a child get hold of a cracked copy. But this is less true about older teens, young adults.

cresshead
05-02-2006, 02:35 PM
hey i know of people who have cars/holidays/houses/ and well paid jobs who have cracked software...don't just heap it all on young people....thieves 'age' just as much as the rest of us remember!

:agree:

Verlon
05-02-2006, 02:49 PM
Having your product available as warez isn't the worst thing that could happen. Max is probably the single most pirated software in the known universe, and yet it seems to do well for Autodesk. I almost think it's part of their marketing plan! It's used so much to create game mods, that when the pirates grow up and get a real job, they already know the product.


Not just Max: In fact, kinda to the point...I actually knew a LW user who's first exposure was a hacked copy when he was a student. He said he bought it as soon as he could afford it after that.

I think Maya hit the nail on the head with the PLE. That just completely deflates that argument.

For the trophy collectors.....release a 160 meg file that opens to a splash screen...maybe even runs in discovery mode :D Those people are weird is all I can say.

ShawnStovall
05-02-2006, 02:54 PM
Not entirley true. I am a "school kid" and I have purchased lightwave (accedemically for now, but I hope to get the commercial update with 9!). Most kids around my age, though, wouldn't be able to make heads or tales of cgi. But you are right perhaps about nobody loses if a child get hold of a cracked copy. But this is less true about older teens, young adults.


I have a ligit copy too. I'm also young and in school. Another Beta version was on sale on eBay about two months ago!:thumbsdow

Chuck
05-02-2006, 02:56 PM
Surfing the net and found a site which i wont mention that has a cracked version of lightwave 9 beta, Didnt take long i guess.

If someone from newtek wants to pm me i will give them the site.

PS i havent down loaded it, came across it by accident.

Do please PM one of the moderation staff with the link! We can forward it on to our legal staff. Thanks for the report!

Captain Obvious
05-02-2006, 03:13 PM
If anything, most of the piracy that takes place actually benefits software companies. Why is Photoshop so utterly dominant? Because everyone and their grandmothers pirated it, learned to use it, and eventually bought it when they realized that hey, doing graphics for a living is fun. Same thing goes for 3ds max, and probably several other applications as well.

Of course, it's not all good. There are probably quite a few people who would buy if they could not pirate. But there is no way around this. Software will always be cracked. Lightwave has a hardware protection scheme, for crying out loud, and every version released is still cracked pretty much instantly. Maya's piracy protection is downright draconic, and it still gets cracked right away. Protection schemes don't work. I think NewTek should just give up with the whole dongle thing and use the same method as Luxology and a bunch of other companies. Just install the license file and it works. It doesn't matter which computer it's on, or anything like that, it just works. Sure, it's easy as pie to pirate, but I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if the extra customers you gain from having less annoying piracy "prevention" and the money saved from not having to develop the protection gives more net income than the couple of customers you lose to piracy.

Yes, it sucks that not everyone who uses Lightwave pays for it. But I would like to point out that A) it can't really be stopped and B) it's not really a big income loss for NewTek.

RedBull
05-02-2006, 04:41 PM
If anything, most of the piracy that takes place actually benefits software companies. Why is Photoshop so utterly dominant? Because everyone and their grandmothers pirated it, learned to use it, and eventually bought it when they realized that hey, doing graphics for a living is fun. Same thing goes for 3ds max, and probably several other applications as well.

Yes, it sucks that not everyone who uses Lightwave pays for it. But I would like to point out that A) it can't really be stopped and B) it's not really a big income loss for NewTek.

I totally agree! especailly on Piracy having a definate positive, and these days smart companies use it as a form of marketing.
Indeed if you can't fight it you embrace it!!!!!!

If your program is not being pirated, it's not worth using!

When i was 15, and LW5.0 was just released on the PC...
I was working in PC hardware, a client came down to pick up a 100 machines, and gave me a CD which had 50 programs, AutoCad and LW5.0 etc.....
I had $2000 saved up for 3D Studio R3, (R4 was coming) at the time.

I then used the cracked version 5.0, just played for a month....
There was no way in **** i was buying 3D Studio, after i rendered an image
from the toybike tricycle scene... LW's renderer was SOOOOOoooo much nicer and softer and cooler......

It was love at first sight, 5.5 was announced I got sent a demo tape of Fusion and LW5.5 and bought 2x licences of LW5.5, (me a friend both bought copies and Miro DC30's.)Then spent a fortune on Safe Harbor on plugins, training materials and content CDs....

Since then i have released free plugins and converted heaps of other 3D users to buy LW, to the point where my dealer thinks i should be on commission,
(except it's Newtek's policy not to give free copies to people anymore, BAH HUMBUG!) helped run a local usergroup, website and yahoo group for LW.

Point to the story!, if i never got a look at pirated LW5.0, i would not of supported LW and it's userbase and third parties for the last 10 years.
And there is quite a lot of money and time invested. LW was heaps more expensive back then too. :)

In a time and place where NT doesn't even see a need to offer a demo,
of it's flagship software, i'm kind of glad for these cracking groups do exist....

Having said that, i think distribution, selling and using these sorts of software
for commercial usage should be legally pursued, and punished.

If the tools pay you money, you pay the for the tools..... Period!

As for protection, some form of protection is a deterent to large companies
from abusing licencing.... BMW was caught here 4 year back, with 300 illegal copies of Win98 installed.. This is a billion dollar company, in the business of making billions of dollars, they should have to pay..... No reason not to.

It's these types of customers where having dongle systems, does likely provide
a deterent from just copying it across the network.

I am getting sick of Adobe and Photoshop and I will not buy Vista until i see it's licence scheme. I've spent so much on MS stuff over the years,
and their licence systems for Windows etc have just gone to such stupid lengths to annoy paying customers, while Pirates just don't get the hassle.

If that's the case i'll buy a legal copy, and install the illegal one....

And to me that sounds like an amazingly stupid thing to do from MS stance.
Force a paying customer to become a non paying pirate... Doh!

This is not embracing technology, but trying to stop an already escaped genie
from leaving the bottle. Cutting off your nose, despite your face.

KevinL
05-02-2006, 07:28 PM
I think I'll drop by your sites, lift some music and pics, do what I want with em and even claim them as my own. Might as well start destroying the last little bit of integrity and decency on the virtual plane. Screw it! if it's out there, it's mine....

Piracy as marketing? Wow what a con.... cept

somewhat tongue in cheek, but not really

Hang loose, hang out, but don't get hung!

PS I pay for my software, if I can't afford it, I don't need it and that has been true through 20 years of playing and working.

hrgiger
05-02-2006, 08:10 PM
I think I'll drop by your sites, lift some music and pics, do what I want with em and even claim them as my own. Might as well start destroying the last little bit of integrity and decency on the virtual plane. Screw it! if it's out there, it's mine....

Piracy as marketing? Wow what a con.... cept

somewhat tongue in cheek, but not really

Hang loose, hang out, but don't get hung!

PS I pay for my software, if I can't afford it, I don't need it and that has been true through 20 years of playing and working.


Piracy is just a fact of life...and human nature. Congratualations on being a model citizen of the Universe, but you're a minority.

I was given a cracked copy of Lightwave some years ago. Apparently that marketing tool worked for me because I then went out and bought Lightwave and have been a legitimate (and demanding) customer of Newtek since the Joy of Six.

By the way, check out this picture I just made in Lightwave:

Albertdup
05-02-2006, 11:30 PM
Considering that until a few years ago one was unable to buy Lightwave in my country a cracked copy was the only way of getting hold of it. Now I have a leggit copy and are proud of using it.

StereoMike
05-02-2006, 11:53 PM
LW was the first renderpackage I ever saw. I was instantly in love, but I couldn't afford it, I was in school. Those days LW was very common in demo scene etc, cause of its open file-format. People could write their own engines to play the scene files. Cracked LW was very common.
So my first contact and my first steps I had with a cracked version. But as soon as I had the money, I bought an educational license. Some time later I was asked to do some animations for money. With the first money I earned, I bought the full version. And today I buy it even a year before it is being released :)

Mike

duke
05-03-2006, 01:08 AM
As a side note, the guys who are making that STALKER game have intentionally "leaked" betas a few times - the result being publicity, and I'm pretty sure that's been done before.

stone
05-03-2006, 01:28 AM
it shouldnt really come as a surprise that someone cracked 9 beta. it has been on edonkey and bittorrent for ages as well, though it might be a hoax file covering up for some porn movie.

personly im not intersted in lightwave9 as a beta, but if no trial version is made available after release, piracy works well for trying stuff out.

/stone

Gui Lo
05-03-2006, 02:05 AM
I bought LW when it was on the Amiga after watching B5 and the submarine thingy.

It was the only afforcable professional 3d app.

I used a copy at a startup which felt crap.

Luckily NewTek allowed me to upgrade from Amiga LW4 to PC LW6.5. Brilliant.

I think low entry and regular updates are the key.

Para
05-03-2006, 07:58 AM
As a side note, the guys who are making that STALKER game have intentionally "leaked" betas a few times - the result being publicity, and I'm pretty sure that's been done before.

STALKER has been stated to be vaporware btw, even the "leaked" betas weren't impressive in anyone's opinion in any way.

NVIDIA btw did a lot of "ohnoes something leaked!" marketing a couple of years ago in form of releasing beta versions of their drivers to public domain through 3rd parties and such. This of course meant that when people complained that the drivers don't work they could just say that they shouldn't be having that driver anyway since it's only an internal beta. Oh the horror, 30 betas and 2 official releases per year...


When most uninformed people think of piracy, they think of selling illegal copies. Yes, that's what it is if it's a physical product like Adidas shirts and pants which has to be obtained from a specific place but when we talk about computer programs which are just a very big collection of bytes which the whole current information network ranging from internet to radio is built on there's no need to pay for the illegal copy of the software.

Do note though that with almost every proper warez release there's one sentence included in the .nfo file, "If you like the product, buy it."

KevinL
05-03-2006, 07:59 AM
"model citizen of the Universe, but you're a minority"
HRgiger said...

I just want to clarify.
A) model citizen my a__, quite often I have been more trouble than I'm worth :)

B) "I'm a minority" finally someone has me figured :)

C) That's a real photo, and I almost got killed in the aquiring !

D) My sense of humor is so far skewed it's serious.

E) I still don't pirate, just because I haven't had a need to and don't really want to.

F) I am extremely OK with anyone here doing whatever, talking about it and defending it. I just shared my perspective. or did I?

Have fun, don't get caught and all is allright.....

I'm going to go earn some dosh:D

PS. I once heard a gentleman share the interesting analogy to the practice of piratings number one, cited, defense "I used it strictly to evaluate and learn, till I could afford it, then I bought it"
His example, a guy gets caught sleeping with his friends wife "I just did it to check her out, decide if she had anything that interested me and then if so, she'll divorce you....." how would you feel if that was your wife? just a thought.....

stone
05-03-2006, 08:22 AM
His example, a guy gets caught sleeping with his friends wife "I just did it to check her out, decide if she had anything that interested me and then if so, she'll divorce you....." how would you feel if that was your wife? just a thought.....

that is flawed on so many levels.
- there is more than one copy of lightwave out there, we arnt all sharing the same version.
- your version of lightwave doesnt get less worth if i copy it and use it. if i use your wife its a whole different matter.
- if i test lightwave and like it, i might go buy it and newtek wins on it. a gain they might not have had otherwise.
- you cant in any way compare my vife divorcing me, to me selling you a copy of a program.
- if your example is to hold any validation, you would have to be able to clone my wife, try the clone, then pay me richly if you like the clone and decide to marry her. in which case i would only win an income while keeping my wife.

/stone

Wonderpup
05-03-2006, 09:01 AM
The current price point of XSI foundation demonstrates the truth of the 'piracy as viral advertising' theory- the only reason they don't give it away in cereal packets is because it would seriosly damage the credibilty of the product. They know that they need to build a user base fast and the more people that have access to xsi the better.

I think that most serios users of an app are always going to go legit in the end, especialy now that prices have come down.

hrgiger
05-03-2006, 10:19 AM
The funny thing is, demos usually don't do it for me. We all know about Newtek's record on providing a demo up to this point. If I had to rely on a demo from Newtek, I'd probably still be using Animation Master.
A time restricted demo is far better then a feature or save limited demo but not by much. I need more then 30 days to analyze a piece of software. It's not like I download something and have all the time in the world to experiement with it. I work, I go to school, I spend time with my girlfriend and her daughter and then when I have a few spare seconds, I use Lightwave. I want the time to put some software through it's paces and through some hurdles before I decide it's worth buying. So demos don't usually do too much for me. Call it software piracy, I just think of it as an unrestricted demo. I can't speak for everyone, but in the end, I want to own (as in purchase) a piece of software because I want updates, I want credibility among my peers, and I want all the benefits that go along with owning a license of that software.
I'm not saying that if you spot your favorite software being pirated that you shouldn't report it like was done in this case. I totally agree with that and I've had dozens of auctions pulled on ebay when I see someone selling cracked software on CD-R's. I believe in free software and music trade but I don't think anyone should be profiting off someone else's creation.

roboanarchy
05-03-2006, 10:38 AM
Lightwave runs in linux under Cedega/Wine quite well. If its cracked. Even the Hub works.
Talk about dongles holding you back eh?

mattclary
05-03-2006, 11:14 AM
I was given a cracked copy of Lightwave some years ago. Apparently that marketing tool worked for me because I then went out and bought Lightwave and have been a legitimate (and demanding) customer of Newtek since the Joy of Six.


Same here. Now look at me.

...................................

colkai
05-03-2006, 11:34 AM
Amazingly, I actually bought LW without ever having the chance to try it out.
I had lost me job and was determined to get *something* out of it.
Never regretted the descision.....though the wife often has. :p

cresshead
05-03-2006, 11:47 AM
each to their own...
i prefer to be honest..i'd make such a crap liar!..what's the point in that then!

bought inspire 3d from newtek 1998
bought 3dslmax 2.5&character studio in 1999..upgraded to max 3 then max 4...
bought lightscape 3.2
bought lightwave 7...then 8...and also aded a second seat of lightwave 8...
bought xsi4.0
upgrade max to 7 then on subscription now have max 8
bought hexagon!

also bought poser 4, bryce4 aint & effect, combustion1 and 2...

quite a bit of softwareover the years!...now spread about my5 pc's..and a mac!

Matt
05-03-2006, 12:18 PM
I was given a cracked copy of Lightwave some years ago. Apparently that marketing tool worked for me because I then went out and bought Lightwave and have been a legitimate (and demanding) customer of Newtek since the Joy of Six.

Interesting ...

A 'friend of mine' a loooooooong time ago in the Amiga days had a dodgy copy of LW 3.5, not that he could really run it on his system (let alone ever afford it back then) but he learned a little of how it worked.

When he graduated and started work, the company he worked for were looking to bring rendering in-house, so he pushed for LightWave, they been using and purchasing the upgrades ever since v5.0.

T-Light
05-03-2006, 02:45 PM
Newtek could always expand the user base by giving away an older version of LW on a few popular magazines coverdisks and reap the rewards on the upgrade offers. No piracy neccessary. :thumbsup:

Don't think this is such a big thing in the States, but most British computer mags run offers like this all the time, it isn't unusual to see in excess of 1-2000 worth of software spread across the covers of only 2 or 3 mags.

Just food for thought

DragonFist
05-03-2006, 03:26 PM
LOL, Seems I was stupid. I saved up my money and bought a used amiga 2000 with a toaster and a (then) older version of Lightwave. Was young lad and apparently naive.

Actually, I had learned my lesson. When I was 12-15 I had a commodore 64 and had every game and app under the sun via various disk copy programs. Let's just say, one day the fun came to an end. And my views on piracy are slightly different now that I have a better concept of ownership and property.

Verlon
05-03-2006, 03:31 PM
T-Light: I like that idea a lot.....I am not sure how they would handle the dongle transition, but it would certainly be a way to get more exposure.

Ztreem
05-03-2006, 05:55 PM
T-Light: I like that idea a lot.....I am not sure how they would handle the dongle transition, but it would certainly be a way to get more exposure.

They could give away a cracked version. :D

Ade
05-03-2006, 05:57 PM
Could someone tell me this Bad sites url so I can tell them myself?

roboanarchy
05-03-2006, 07:03 PM
Lightwave runs in linux under Cedega/Wine quite well. If its cracked. Even the Hub works.
Talk about dongles holding you back eh?

By the way I do own Lightwave.
That was just an experiment, because I do love my *nix.

Not much of a linux crowd around is there? I see it mentioned here and there but not quite enough to get it on the plates of the developers im afraid. Perhaps a "legitimate benefits of a linux port" petition style thread could bring it about. Has that been done? Unfortunately the benefits probably do not outweigh the babying you'll likely have to do to run it on a console based OS. MacOS is a different story I assume.
I guess it could be summed up by saying that if it's not a big deal to make and support a linux port then of course it'd sure be nice to have it but since there isn't one I can only assume that it IS a hassle. Even if they really did want to produce it it'd probably still be a long scroll down to get to it on the devs list of things to do at this point. I just realized im probably in fact talking to myself.

zapper1998
05-03-2006, 08:38 PM
If it were not from LW5 modeler, that a friend gave me way back when, to tinker with, I would have bought 3dmax, But I bought LW 5.0 full and have been buying the upgrades sense....

My 2c worth

KillMe
05-04-2006, 06:27 AM
wonder how many legal cases newtek is working up after reading this thread lol =)

WhiteBoy
05-04-2006, 07:23 AM
I know a lot of guys who probably haven't ever purchased a legitimate software license in their life. The idea just never appears to be an option for them. When I ask them why they don't buy proper licenses, they just laugh and begin their rants about how ridiculously high the prices are. Ironically, part of the reason that the prices are so high is because of people like them.

I had to make some sacrifices to buy LightWave legally. It makes me mad that other people can get the same thing without sparing a cent. At least I have integrity. Yeah! We don't buy licenses of LightWave. We buy integrity and pride! :D

colkai
05-04-2006, 08:24 AM
Funnily enough, one of the guys at work is like this. He can't understand why I would pay out so much money when pirated copies are available, thinks it's a total waste. Kinda like trying to explain that charging a charity for the volunteer work you do means it sorta defeats the point - I guess some folks have a very different slant on life.

KillMe
05-04-2006, 10:53 AM
if knowbody paid for it then it would very quickly cease to exist

GandB
05-04-2006, 12:23 PM
I'm just plugging away with the demo until I have the money to put down for the full version. At least this way, I'll be somewhat knowledgable with LW by the time I do get it.

-Keith

Captain Obvious
05-04-2006, 02:27 PM
if knowbody paid for it then it would very quickly cease to exist
Yes, of course. But it's not piracy that hurts business. It's a lack of customers. Piracy does not automatically lead to fewer paying customers.

KillMe
05-04-2006, 04:21 PM
yeah was meaning that in responce to colkai saying that someone where he works cant understand why anyone pays for it

well if knowone paid then no product thats simple - i'm quite sure warez versions of lightwave have led to many sales of legit licenses though

i dont nessaily think that warez is bad thing - its just those who use a product to make money but dont have a license that i object too

ericsmith
05-04-2006, 04:38 PM
The whole "Steal it until you make money from it, then pay for it" argument really doesn't make sense. Are you saying that hobbyists shouldn't have to pay for it?

Why should I ever buy a game. I'll never make money off of that.

The bottom line is this: The fact that you want something doesn't mean you automatically deserve to have it without paying for it. Any commodity that isn't a physical object falls into this category. Using Pirated software is no different than sneaking into a movie theater or concert without paying. The fact that there may be empty seats and you are not physically taking money away from the establishment does not mean that you are not doing anything wrong. You're getting something that doesn't belong to you, because you didn't pay. Period.

The argument that warez helps to generate future sales is a cop-out. The software publisher is the only one who has the right to choose how they promote their product. They created it, and when someone cracks it, it's no different than stealing a piece of your artwork, and copying and distributing it to anyone that wants to use it for their own benefit without paying for it. And then they turn around and tell you they're doing you a favor, by giving you exposure. When clients try and pull this stunt on us artists (ie. asking us to work for free, but promising us "lots of exposure"), no one comes to their defense.

I would hope that as a group of people who create intangiable product, there's be less of us so sympathic to those who steal it.

Eric

Titus
05-04-2006, 05:13 PM
The whole "Steal it until you make money from it, then pay for it" argument really doesn't make sense. Are you saying that hobbyists shouldn't have to pay for it?

Well, first it's no stealing, it's copyright infringement (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyright_infringement). Second, it's a reality and the software companies should understand they cannot treat their clients or future clients like criminals. I have received threat letters from another 3D software company in the past, offering to pay a visit to my studio and search my computers for illegal software, I will never buy from these guys.

I try to have all my software legal, specially the software I use to make a living. However most programs are sold "as is", if I buy a license (you don't buy the program) sometimes the program doesn't do what it is supposed to do, this happened to me many times with games. This is the reason I first install a demo version and if the program works as I want, then I buy the complete version.

mattclary
05-04-2006, 06:48 PM
Using Pirated software is no different than sneaking into a movie theater or concert without paying.


Except a bad movie puts you out $9, 3D software sets you back $800.

Back in the day it was $2500.

T-Light
05-04-2006, 07:02 PM
Really tried not to get into this thread as I've ranted and raved on this subject before.

Essentially my views on these forums have revolved around Piracy=Death Penalty.

I have chilled some over the last couple of years. On Titus's point...

software companies should understand they cannot treat their clients or future clients like criminals.
Should say that :newtek: have never approached this category, but how many people here are sick of this...

1) Renting perfectly legitimte DVD's from a national store and have to sit through several minutes of "You wouldn't steal clothes or food, so why would you steal movies" - we get this in UK, don't know about anywhere else. They make this so you can't skip to menu, it's EXCRUCIATINGLY ANNOYING

2) Buying legitimate online music, only to find when you transfer it to one of your mobile devices "You're not licenced to listen to this music". B*****DS

3) Buy software to find yourself being unable to use said software without connecting to the internet and have your licence validated - happens on the move all the s*dding time with laptops and ALLWAYS when you can't get online. FOR WHY?????

At the end of the day people watching 'cracked' movies don't have to go through tedious copyright warnings ruining their Saturday evening takeaway.

People using 'cracked' music can play it anywhere they like.

People using 'cracked' software don't have to go through extrordinary lengths to keep their software running.

In my fuddery duddery old way, I'm getting all sides of the arguments here, on all points above, the various industries are going TOO far.

On the point of illegitimate LW, I can't argue with everyone who said 'I saw it cracked - it made me buy' - I saw pictures of LW in Amiga mags then I got to use it at work - it made me buy.

I stand by my argument - Newtek should get an older version of LW out on magazine coverdisks - Spread this software - by Legitimate means.

Cheers.

Gui Lo
05-04-2006, 09:03 PM
They could give away a cracked version. :D

I think we will see a free copy of LW in the future as the benefits of large expensive apps are harder to see with each version update. Mayas PLE seems a good idea but it showed me what a steep learning curve there is to learn Maya properly. Also it is not really viable if you cannot afford the end product and getting a job still recquires professional tuition of some kind.

An Inspire level of 3d app but with a limited render size(320X240) could be given free and then users could buy the additional features as plugins or upgrades. Then people could tailer LW to there own needs knowing that the features bought are the features they need and will use.

There are parts of LW I haven't touched and I am sure that is true of most people. As Lw gets even bigger there will be more and bigger areas that some people do not need.

This may be harder to develope but it seems this is the direction the dev team are going since the renderer is seperate, the camera, the modeling tools are seperate and who knows what else.

The added benefit is that the pirates must crack all the possible plugins and upgrades each time a new one is released or re-released. Are they going to bother?

My 2 cents

Gui Lo

Verlon
05-04-2006, 09:06 PM
Except a bad movie puts you out $9, 3D software sets you back $800.

Back in the day it was $2500.


Yes, but back in THOSE days, the dongle was a 4 input video switcher :)

Now that dongle upgrade is, like the USB dongle upgrade, $29.95. However, the decimel point gets bumped over a couple of places.....

and it was $1595 before that.

Yeah, I hate being treated to the 'you are a criminal' package, especially by groups that want to infringe on my fair use.

The idea that I can't sell something I bought and own is horrible (like XSI Foundation). The idea that I can be bound to a license agreement I can't even read yet (bound by cracking the shrinkwrap to a license agreement on a PDF on the CD) AND said license agreement means I have to live with the bugs in the software is something I have real trouble wrapping my brain around.

To me, fair use was beautifully explained in a Borland C manual. Your rights to the software should work just like the rights to a book. You can read it. You can make as many backup copies as you want. You can loan it to a friend, sell it, or give it away. BUT....at no time should any two people in two places be reading the one copy you originally paid for. Also, because it is relavent here, buying the book does NOT give you the right to make a movie about the book. Movie rights are a separate deal.

Part of Lightwave's apeal is that it works very close to this philosophy.

Oh, and some of those movie companies insist that you ARE stealing from them when you skip the commercials. They assert it is their right to advertise to you, and you are violating their rights by circumventing the ads. Fortunately, judges haven't agreed with them yet (at least in the US).

loki74
05-04-2006, 09:10 PM
Really tried not to get into this thread as I've ranted and raved on this subject before.

Essentially my views on these forums have revolved around Piracy=Death Penalty.

I have chilled some over the last couple of years. On Titus's point...

Should say that :newtek: have never approached this category, but how many people here are sick of this...

1) Renting perfectly legitimte DVD's from a national store and have to sit through several minutes of "You wouldn't steal clothes or food, so why would you steal movies" - we get this in UK, don't know about anywhere else. They make this so you can't skip to menu, it's EXCRUCIATINGLY ANNOYING

2) Buying legitimate online music, only to find when you transfer it to one of your mobile devices "You're not licenced to listen to this music". B*****DS

3) Buy software to find yourself being unable to use said software without connecting to the internet and have your licence validated - happens on the move all the s*dding time with laptops and ALLWAYS when you can't get online. FOR WHY?????

At the end of the day people watching 'cracked' movies don't have to go through tedious copyright warnings ruining their Saturday evening takeaway.

People using 'cracked' music can play it anywhere they like.

People using 'cracked' software don't have to go through extrordinary lengths to keep their software running.

In my fuddery duddery old way, I'm getting all sides of the arguments here, on all points above, the various industries are going TOO far.

On the point of illegitimate LW, I can't argue with everyone who said 'I saw it cracked - it made me buy' - I saw pictures of LW in Amiga mags then I got to use it at work - it made me buy.

I stand by my argument - Newtek should get an older version of LW out on magazine coverdisks - Spread this software - by Legitimate means.

Cheers.

Agreed. Especially about the annoying intro to DVDs. Yuck.

But I cannot put into words how much I hate those people who crack software. Well, the sotware I use anyway. Especially the ones that brag about it. Like it makes them cool, or badass or something. ...No, it just makes them nerds and theifs.

They ****** about how software costs so much money, but who are they to decide how much something should cost? It's what the market will bear, and if they're not professionals, guess what, they're not part of the pro software market. (unless they're serious hobbyists who use pro software, or students learning to use pro software... in which case they have no business cracking software anyway). And if its too expensive for you--DONT BUY IT. And buy something else. There are SOOO many options in 3D. There are loads of options in just about every type of software. If the top of the line is too expensive, for goodness sake, just get something less expensive.

</rant>

Celshader
05-04-2006, 09:41 PM
Except a bad movie puts you out $9, 3D software sets you back $800.

This is why I encourage (http://www.celshader.com/FAQ.html) folks with a casual interest in 3D to start with the Blender (http://www.blender.org) freeware. If they then like 3D, cool. If they don't like it, they haven't lost anything.

StereoMike
05-04-2006, 11:14 PM
I don't think, warez are a good thing, cause there's a lot of people, who don't buy the software they find useful after testing.
If you think of china or other countries, were they have no problem using cracked copies on a grand scale, you could also see a loss in company income for the developer.
I don't think, that the 15 year old boy is a problem, cause he doesn't has the money and he wouldn't buy anyway. But as he grows and earns money with it, he becomes a problem, if he doesn't see his responsibility to support the developer.

Puguglybonehead
05-04-2006, 11:42 PM
Well said StereoMike. I think responsibility is the issue. For some reason, when it comes to software, a lot of people feel no responsibility whatsoever. They think all the software companies are rich enough to take the loss no problem, I guess.

When I worked in constuction, I never used stolen tools. It was heavily frowned upon, as tool-theft was an ongoing problem. When I worked as a bike-courier, same thing. A courier using a stolen bike was dead meat if anybody found them out.

Probably the reason some people feel no responsibility, when it comes to warez, is that software isn't a physical thing, so it really doesn't feel like 'stealing'. But it is. It's not much different than stealing any other type of intellectual property. Plagarism has always been a problem in the creative field. So any one of us is a potential victim of theft. Stealing from a software company by using warez copies of their apps is bad kharma. Software developers deserve to get paid for their work just as much as the artists who use their applications deserve to. It's a matter of responsibility.

colkai
05-05-2006, 02:47 AM
With Blender and Wings3D being so good for freeware, it's an impossible stance to say folks pirate it because it's too expensive.
Now with Hex2 coming in at 18 quid, which is less than many folks spend on booze in one night, then there are no excuses, none whatsoever.

Adrian Lopez
05-05-2006, 02:48 AM
You can't steal software by making unautorized copies any more than I can steal your soul by taking your picture. Let's call it what it really is: copyright infringement.

pixelinfected
05-05-2006, 03:43 AM
you want to know a nice thing,
in past my first approch was with a pirate copy of lw, but only be cause was a time of lw3.0, and i not need a toaster (also be cause it was ntsc only and in italy i cannot use it, if it worked also in pal i'm sure that i bought immediately).
then at that time, after 30 minutes of playing i decide that it was my application and did a fax to safe harbor to buy my legitimate copy of lw, that at this time is possible to buy for renderfarm with out toaster card, and with a strange hack called lightrave, a legal/pirate dongle that allow me to use lw without a toaster...

strange thing in the life, but in the same time, newtek release lw 3.5 which not need more of toaster, which have pal resolution and more, and pack that arrive to my home was new and wonderful lightwave with full legal using.

in the time i wrote over 100 tutorial on italian magazine, i did first italian mailing list of lw, i translate many tutorial in italian for every users that not know english, i wrote other tutorial on my web, i share my knowledge, i share my preset, and more, and i teach lw for since 2000 hours at school and training center...

i like a lot lw, i have a necklace with silver lightwave logo, and continue to suggest lw to everyone i meet, recently i show to a guy how good is his choose of maya for its work, and after my word (and some my animations that i show) he decide to buy lw...

piracy could be useful when you not have demo (like at that time), but actually is only a bad thing for paying user, be cause that force newtek to spend time and money on protection scheme, that they can spend in other and better way.

dongle is good solution, i keep my dongle and usb drive with me, and lw follow me everywhere, with my plugins, with my preset, with my configuration.

p.s. to be honest, i not have one license of lw, but two.... i believe in lw, i believe in newtek

Wonderpup
05-05-2006, 03:53 AM
The only effective way to deal with this issue is to create incentives to 'join the club'. Newtek do some of this already with the free texture downloads available to registered users only. The urge to 'belong' is quite a powerful one and can be employed to persuade people to buy into the product legitimately in order to participate. Of course this will not work on the 'trophy hunters' but they were unlikely to ever be legitimate customers anyway.

zapper1998
05-05-2006, 04:45 AM
ya I wonder to... LOL

Captain Obvious
05-05-2006, 05:36 AM
Nobody's saying that you SHOULD pirate software. Nobody's saying that warez is a good thing. However, what I've been trying to explain is that piracy does not automatically hurt the software developer. This is the bottom line. The fact that some warez community offers Lightwave for free does not, in any way shape or form, hurt NewTek's business. The vast majority of the software pirates out there would not actually buy the app if they were unable to pirate it. They'd use something that's free.

NewTek doesn't lose any money if you use a cracked version of Lightwave instead of Blender. That doesn't mean you should pirate it, of course, but the idea that software pirates are evil people who hurt software companies is preposterous.

And no, it is NOT comparable to sneaking into a movie theater. Movie theaters offer a limited amount of space, and they have fire safety and ventilation and such to consider. This is not the case with software.

mattclary
05-05-2006, 05:52 AM
This is why I encourage (http://www.celshader.com/FAQ.html) folks with a casual interest in 3D to start with the Blender (http://www.blender.org) freeware. If they then like 3D, cool. If they don't like it, they haven't lost anything.

Would you buy LightWave (or Max or Maya) just because you liked using Blender? ;) There was no demo available for LightWave (that I'm aware of) back in the 5.x-6.x days. Nowadays, if you want to try the software, i suggest you get the demo. Can't make up my mind if I prefer time-expiring demos over crippled demos though. Inspire (coupled with LightWave 5.6 Applied ;) ) is what really sold me on getting Lightwave. Inspire was one freaking expensive demo!

mattclary
05-05-2006, 06:15 AM
You can't steal software by making unautorized copies any more than I can steal your soul by taking your picture. Let's call it what it really is: copyright infringement.

This argument doesn't really hold water nowadays. We live in an information world, and I would even say, an information economy. Data has real value in our world.

While I believe wholeheartedly that should I buy a movie on DVD that it is my RIGHT to play that movie on any device I own (without having to watch adverts), aquiring software without paying for them (or music or movies) is (or should be) a crime. Sometimes we all make concious decisions to break a law, like when we speed in our car, but that does not change the fact that it is a crime. If breaking the law means you wind up becoming a fan-boy of the software, so be it, but you still broke the law.

You can't differentiate between a thug who has a CD duplicator in his basement selling copies of Windows and a kid who downloads Max off the internet. Both are stealing but one would just have to hope that the punishement would vary, as one individual wants to explore the wonders of 3D software, and another wants to make money by selling stolen goods. Intent makes a huge difference.

I just hope that NewTek will forgive those of us who shoplifted since we are now helping them send their kids to college. ;)

T-Light
05-05-2006, 06:24 AM
mattclary-

While I believe wholeheartedly that should I buy a movie on DVD that it is my RIGHT to play that movie on any device I own (without having to watch adverts)
:agree:

I have a friend who buys DVD's, makes a copy and only plays the copy purely because he can't stand 'forced' adverts.

billmi
05-05-2006, 06:30 AM
"It's OK for you not to buy the software because the studio you will work for will provide you the software you need." Sounds reasonable but seems extremely wrong thing to say.

I guess what they are telling their students would be more clearly understood if the same idea was juxtaposed with the instructor at a truck driving school.

"It's OK for you to swipe a rig because the company you drive for will provide a rig."

T-Light
05-05-2006, 06:58 AM
And another thing :devil:

To get round the forced copyrights and ads, we put the rented dvd in a good ten to fifteen minutes before we're due to watch it. This was dandy up until recently when they've added yet another massive annoyance to ruin your evening.

Basically, I'm English, I was born in England, I'm watching DVD's made by English speaking people, the actors speak English, The studios speak English, the Distributers speak English, the language on the box is English, The language on the DVD is English.

WHY THEN do I have to do THIS before I can play a DVD.
press right, press down, press down, press down, press down, press down, press down, press select. AND AGAIN...
press right, press down, press down, press down, press down, press down, press down, press select. AND AGAIN...
press right, press down, press down, press down, press down, press down, press down, press select. AND AGAIN...
press right, press down, press down, press down, press down, press down, press down, press select. AND AGAIN...
press right, press down, press down, press down, press down, press down, press down, press select.

ALL TO SELECT ENGLISH from a myriad of languages some of which I've never even heard of. This of course is doubly annoying when you sit down to eat, switch the TV to the DVD setting and know you've not only got to go through all of the above cr*ppola, but you've also got to sit through 10 to 15 mins of pirate pain and film adverts you'll never want to see.

Why the heck do studios think they'll keep legitimate customers when they KEEP PUTTING US THROUGH ALL THIS!

T-Light
05-05-2006, 07:25 AM
AND YET ANOTHER.

Guess which language the title of the "SELECT YOUR LANGUAGE" pages are in...

Correct.

"Sweetie do fancy a relaxing evening or a stressfull one?"
"Ooh, I think I'll go for stressfull."
"DVD it is then."

mattclary
05-05-2006, 07:37 AM
I guess what they are telling their students would be more clearly understood if the same idea was juxtaposed with the instructor at a truck driving school.

"It's OK for you to swipe a rig because the company you drive for will provide a rig."

Funny how universities will preach about ethics if you are caught plagiarizing a paper, huh? ;)

Celshader
05-05-2006, 08:31 AM
However, what I've been trying to explain is that piracy does not automatically hurt the software developer. This is the bottom line.

I've seen folks use cracks of commercial software for paid freelance work. If people earn money from using the software, but the folks who wrote the software do not get any money, I think the folks who wrote the software are getting ripped off.


Would you buy LightWave (or Max or Maya) just because you liked using Blender? ;)

One of my former co-workers bought LightWave 7.5 (http://www.blender3d.org/cms/Animatics_for_Motion_P.393.0.html) after using Blender for three years, so it does happen.

I would prefer seeing folks run legit Blender/POV-Ray/Wings3D freeware than cracks of commerical software.

WhiteBoy
05-05-2006, 08:49 AM
bought LightWave 7.5 (http://www.blender3d.org/cms/Animatics_for_Motion_P.393.0.html) after using Blender for three years, so it does happen.

I would prefer seeing folks run legit Blender/POV-Ray/Wings3D freeware than cracks of commerical software.

I started out with Blender. In fact, I still use it. And it did lead me to LightWave, mainly because much of the Blender community favored it over the other commercial packages.

Captain Obvious
05-05-2006, 08:49 AM
I've seen folks use cracks of commercial software for paid freelance work. If people earn money from using the software, but the folks who wrote the software do not get any money, I think the folks who wrote the software are getting ripped off.
Of course. People like that are bastards. But I still don't think that they would actually buy it, if piracy was not an option.




I would prefer seeing folks run legit Blender/POV-Ray/Wings3D freeware than cracks of commerical software.
Me too. If nothing else simply because an increase in userbase for something like Blender might make it more of a real alternative.

KillMe
05-05-2006, 09:09 AM
one of the main arguments for warez is that it works as a demo of sorts that you dont find your time limits run out after having started it once and only had a quick look at the interface then got busy with work or that has features crippled

so i was thinking about the 30 days trials basically the developer is giving you the right to use it for 30 days - how about you make that actually 30 days of use and have ti only tick off a day from your timer if you have used it that day - sure that would remove alot of the need for warez and still be able to get a reasonble exposure to the program with the demo

Sensei
05-05-2006, 09:12 AM
He also made it quite clear that he would "crack it" once he had the copy.

In that case don't let him even touch you keyboard, nor "send mail".. He can send your legitimate software through network and some titles are protected by watermarks and your copies will be sooner or later disabled and your surname and address will be listed as thief..

Weetos
05-05-2006, 09:14 AM
so i was thinking about the 30 days trials basically the developer is giving you the right to use it for 30 days - how about you make that actually 30 days of use and have ti only tick off a day from your timer if you have used it that day - sure that would remove alot of the need for warez and still be able to get a reasonble exposure to the program with the demo

True. Actually Adobe used that policy for the demo of Sketchbook which is a great thing. I had the opportunity to evaluate a non crippled product during 30 non-consecutive days, and every demos should run that way imho

Celshader
05-05-2006, 09:16 AM
Of course. People like that are bastards. But I still don't think that they would actually buy it, if piracy was not an option.


Well...I know a few LightWave folks who were running cracks for commercial work until SpinQuads offered that sweet discount (http://www.spinquad.com/forums/showthread.php?t=9932) for LW8.5+Vue5+LW9.0 earlier this year. Now they own legit licenses of LightWave. I think it was easier for them to run cracks when LightWave cost $2400, but when a legit license became available for $636 they pounced on it.

I know another guy who's on the edge over whether to buy 9.0 or hope for a crack of 9.0 to come out. If he can't find a crack of 9.0, he'll buy 9.0.

Meaty
05-05-2006, 09:47 AM
While I believe wholeheartedly that should I buy a movie on DVD that it is my RIGHT to play that movie on any device I own (without having to watch adverts), aquiring software without paying for them (or music or movies) is (or should be) a crime.

To be sure, it is an unsavory fact that DVDs are loaded with ads. At most, however, these companies can be charged with extraordinary indecorum. But there is certainly no violation of your rights.

Wonderpup
05-05-2006, 09:48 AM
In some ways the software industry created Warez by overpricing their products so grossly in the first place- some of the pricing for 3D apps in the early days were so over the top that people felt justified in ripping them off- and the culture this created persists to this day, even though software prices have come down.

Verlon
05-05-2006, 10:07 AM
To be sure, it is an unsavory fact that DVDs are loaded with ads. At most, however, these companies can be charged with extraordinary indecorum. But there is certainly no violation of your rights.

I feel it IS a violation of my rights when said company says (or tries to say) that you are required to watch those ads in order to watch the movie.

mrunion
05-05-2006, 10:19 AM
2 Statements:

1. (Fact) I used Blender, then bought LW.
2. (Opinion) Putting an ad on a DVD isn't a violation of law or rights, MAKING me watch them IS a violation of law/rights.

"Over-the-air" TVT stations are "free" and ad supported. Cable (well, movie channels anyway) is PAID for and has no commercials (filler between movies maybe). If I go to a theater to watch a movie I EXPECT trailers, as I'm "sharing" the cost of renting that movie, theater seat, power for lights, the bathroom cleaner, etc. When I *BUY* a DVD for *HOME* entertainment, I am PAYING NOT TO SEE ANYTHING ELSE BUT THAT MOVIE. That's the bottom line! It's like getting FREE access to internet sites, but HAVING ads, and PAYING for access to the site to REMOVE ads.

The DVD moguls are just greedy in my opinion!

mattclary
05-05-2006, 10:22 AM
To be sure, it is an unsavory fact that DVDs are loaded with ads. At most, however, these companies can be charged with extraordinary indecorum. But there is certainly no violation of your rights.

I feel I pay the fair market value for my DVDs (~$19 for new, ~$6.99 for old crap and everything in between), so I feel it IS my right to not watch those adverts.

I paid for the content, it's my right to use it as I see fit (short of copying it and distributing to others). When you buy a toaster, the manufacturer does not try to tell you how you can use that toaster. If I buy a book, I can rip the cover off and paste the pages to a piece of cardboard if I want.

It goes back to my previous post. Data should be considered real property. That is a two edged sword that the content providers must respect also. When I buy the data, it becomes MY data.

mattclary
05-05-2006, 10:25 AM
2 Statements:

1. (Fact) I used Blender, then bought LW.
2. (Opinion) Putting an ad on a DVD isn't a violation of law or rights, MAKING me watch them IS a violation of law/rights.

"Over-the-air" TVT stations are "free" and ad supported. Cable (well, movie channels anyway) is PAID for and has no commercials (filler between movies maybe). If I go to a theater to watch a movie I EXPECT trailers, as I'm "sharing" the cost of renting that movie, theater seat, power for lights, the bathroom cleaner, etc. When I *BUY* a DVD for *HOME* entertainment, I am PAYING NOT TO SEE ANYTHING ELSE BUT THAT MOVIE. That's the bottom line! It's like getting FREE access to internet sites, but HAVING ads, and PAYING for access to the site to REMOVE ads.

The DVD moguls are just greedy in my opinion!

Hey, how about the trend in TV now to advertise with popups?! They are getting freaking HUGE!! They are getting so big you sometimes miss some of what is happening in the show! Man they make me mad!

Verlon
05-05-2006, 10:34 AM
Once again, I find myself in agreement with MattClary.

You deserve a cup of rice-------------with hopps, yeast, and barley :D

:beerchug:

Meaty
05-05-2006, 10:36 AM
Matt - Where does this right come from? Either the Constitution, or it is rooted in law.

When I buy a magazine, it has advertisements. Articles are often fragmented and bifurcated by large full page ads thereby forcing me to turn the page past the ad in order to continue reading the article. This is not a violation of rights. Goods are often combinded with advertisements.

Like I said, packing a DVD with ads is, at most, rude, but it is no basis for a legal cause of action, i.e. a violation of one's rights. If it was, I have to believe that by now, there would have been many class action suits.

Verlon
05-05-2006, 10:44 AM
Meaty: when something objectionable comes on TV, the defense is "you do not HAVE to watch it." Now I happen to be in that camp also. Garbage has the right to be garbage, but I do not HAVE to watch it. I have the right NOT to watch porn if I choose not to (or daytime tv, which is probably worse).

Strangely, it is those same DVD companies that mention this whenever some group objects to something they are producing.

So, I'd say its rooted in law....It might even qualify as life, liberty (liberated from those annoying ads), and the pursuit of happiness (pursuit of watching a movie without commercials).

Also....those magazines allow you the OPTION of turning the page. DVD companies OBJECT to YOUR RIGHT to skip those ads.

jeremyhardin
05-05-2006, 10:48 AM
i hate those bloody DVD "You wouldn't steal..." ads. Making legitimate buyers pay in the off chance that it will get ripped down the line. Newsflash folks! If you can rip a DVD, you can probably figure out how to take that **** off!

makes me want to rip a dozen copies of the DVD in question and give it to all my friends, just to make a point.:devil:

Meaty
05-05-2006, 10:54 AM
Verlon - It isn't a valid legal test to apply the obscenity test to advertisements because they are "objectionable" via inconvience. That would not last two seconds in court. One has to do with public broadcasting and the other has to do with private sales between parties.

Also, you have no right to not be annoyed whether you buy a product or not.

Finally, if there were legislation which prohibited ads on DVDs, it would rightly be a violation of the 1st Amendment rights of the distributors (or whomever puts the ads on the discs)

Again, if there were any legitmate basis for a cause of action, it most certainly would have been taken up in court by now.

mattclary
05-05-2006, 11:08 AM
Matt - Where does this right come from? Either the Constitution, or it is rooted in law.

When I buy a magazine, it has advertisements. Articles are often fragmented and bifurcated by large full page ads thereby forcing me to turn the page past the ad in order to continue reading the article. This is not a violation of rights. Goods are often combinded with advertisements.


You take a pair of scissors and cut them out and no one will pretend you have broken any rules or "EULAs". With a magazine you can fast forward through the ads by turning the page, with a DVD you can not fast forward through them (usually).

It is rooted in property ownership laws that have existed for many many years. When you buy property, it becomes yours to do with as you please.

ericsmith
05-05-2006, 11:15 AM
Can anyone give an example of a movie that forces you to watch 10 minutes of adds before the movie starts? I rent a lot of movies, and typically the worst I've seen is a couple of movie previews (which I actually like), or perhaps a montage of movies advertising the studio.

On another note, have any of you tried hitting the Menu button instead of the FF or Next Scene button? I've found that to work when FF won't work during the previews or FBI warnings.

This discussion makes me wonder if DVDs that are exported to other countries are different from the ones we have here.

Eric

mattclary
05-05-2006, 11:21 AM
Can anyone give an example of a movie that forces you to watch 10 minutes of adds before the movie starts? I rent a lot of movies, and typically the worst I've seen is a couple of movie previews (which I actually like), or perhaps a montage of movies advertising the studio.

On another note, have any of you tried hitting the Menu button instead of the FF or Next Scene button? I've found that to work when FF won't work during the previews or FBI warnings.

This discussion makes me wonder if DVDs that are exported to other countries are different from the ones we have here.


No one ever stated a time I don't think. Any ad that you can't fast forward through is bogus. Yeah, usually if you try, you can wind up getting through the commercials with some effort, but it should not be required to put forth the effort.

Meaty
05-05-2006, 11:26 AM
It is rooted in property ownership laws that have existed for many many years. When you buy property, it becomes yours to do with as you please.

Matt - A manufacturer has no obligation to design a product so that you can use it in a manner for which it was not intended. If they intend to place ads and restrict you from advancing through them, they can do that. That is its intended design. Another example, placing a governer deep in the inner workings of a lawnmower that would require the significant effort of a mechanic to remove is not a violation of the purchaser's rights.

Again, I have to believe, that in our hyper-litigious society, if there is a cause of action, someone would have sued, won, and there would be no ads on DVDs today.

jeremyhardin
05-05-2006, 11:28 AM
The Domino DVD had the ad I think.

ericsmith
05-05-2006, 11:28 AM
T-Light said he puts a DVD in 10 - 15 minutes before he's ready to start watching. I guess that number stuck in my head.

I'm not saying that I disagree with how annoying it is to not be able to fast forward through commercials at the beginning of a DVD. Honestly, I think there's an unwritten rule that says paying for content gives you the right to not be advertised to, and the studios are breaking that rule if they put ads on DVDs. I'm just saying that I hardly ever rent a DVD that even has ads, except for previews. And if I want to skip the previews, hitting Menu always jumps me right to where I want to go.

Eric

GandB
05-05-2006, 11:44 AM
I can't stand it when I pay to see a movie in the theater and they show those "You wouldn't steal..." commercials. Why are they making the people who OBVIOUSLY just paid to see the movie, watch that? I pay @ $8 to watch 30 minutes worth of commercials, and get a free movie at the end!

-Keith

mattclary
05-05-2006, 11:57 AM
Matt - A manufacturer has no obligation to design a product so that you can use it in a manner for which it was not intended. If they intend to place ads and restrict you from advancing through them, they can do that. That is its intended design. Another example, placing a governer deep in the inner workings of a lawnmower that would require the significant effort of a mechanic to remove is not a violation of the purchaser's rights.

Again, I have to believe, that in our hyper-litigious society, if there is a cause of action, someone would have sued, won, and there would be no ads on DVDs today.

Oh, I agree they CAN do that. And I CAN crack the DVD and edit out those same commercials.

hrgiger
05-05-2006, 12:55 PM
Ah, I remember the days where all you had to sit through at the movies before the movie started was previews (which I enjoy). Now I have to see some pseudo ahtlete (aka Nascar driver) pushing coca-cola, a car commercial, another annoying coke commercial, and god knows what else. I really hate the way this society is going.

And yeah, everytime that little circle with the line through it comes on my screen (indicating that fast forward is disabled from this part of the DVD, I want to fling my DVD player from a 100th story building.

Other then that, I'm a pretty happy go lucky guy.

Celshader
05-05-2006, 12:58 PM
And yeah, everytime that little circle with the line through it comes on my screen (indicating that fast forward is disabled from this part of the DVD, I want to fling my DVD player from a 100th story building.

Is it just fast-forward that's disabled, or can you use chapter-skip and/or the menu button to escape?

jeremyhardin
05-05-2006, 01:17 PM
depends on the DVD. sometimes chapter skip. sometimes menu. sometimes title. sometimes fast-forward. and any combination of them.

colkai
05-05-2006, 01:54 PM
Normally your "forced" to watch a lot of stuff at the start, very annoying when you want to just get into a specific special feature. I really don't need to see the same stuff over and over. I'd wager things are only gonna get worse too. Like adverts which now pop up as the TV programme is finishing, note, I said finishing, not actually finished.
These days, they don't even wait for the credits before blabbing on about something, meanwhile you lose the last minute or so of crucial dialog. Arrgghhh!

Randall Chesbro
05-05-2006, 02:36 PM
I think If you dont agree with the way something is sold and the things that go with it like copyguard or dongles or fbi warnings and comercials, then dont buy it.
You all have to remember that not everyone had an up bringing that tought them integraty (in my case how to spell it)

hunter
05-05-2006, 04:02 PM
I can kind of understand on the rentals, but the DVDs you buy. Oh MAN! THAT pisses me off. And don't get me started on the theaters with the commercials. And they wonder why their industy is tanking. One of joys people used to get going to the movies was no commercials. JEEZ! Plus the astronomical price to watch a remake and listen to guy behind you eat walnuts with the shells still on em'. Arrrgh! I'm never goin' to the movies again.


Hey who wants to go see The Divinci Code? :thumbsup:

Celshader
05-05-2006, 04:04 PM
Hey who's gonna see The Divinci Code? :thumbsup:


Heck with the DaVinci Code. I'm gonna go see CAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARS (http://www.pixar.com/featurefilms/cars/)!!!

T-Light
05-05-2006, 04:45 PM
Well Randall, it may be my own inabillity to accept how people try to do business, but the whole thing really annoys me,as colkai said they're now pushing bull on us before TV programs end. I know you've had this in the States for years but in the UK we're FORCED to pay for TV, we really have to pay for this cr*p at every opport*nity.

Yours annoyed - T

BeeVee
05-05-2006, 05:27 PM
Hi all,

Have a read of Dr. Lawrence Lessig's book Free Culture (http://www.free-culture.cc/freecontent/). It will open your eyes to the way copyright is heading...

B
PS. It's available as a free download (under a Creative Commons licence) in many different formats, and also as a book to buy from a bookshop.

PPS, if you think DVDs are bad, just wait for HD DVD/Blue Ray, having to buy all your films again, finding that your TV won't play them at full resolution and your computer refuses to play them at all... ;)

Bog
05-05-2006, 06:45 PM
PPS, if you think DVDs are bad, just wait for HD DVD/Blue Ray, having to buy all your films again, finding that your TV won't play them at full resolution and your computer refuses to play them at all...

*fingers his sonic screwdriver, meaningfully*

Not without a bit of tinkering, but they will play. Oh, yes Ben, they will play. I speak as a professional content creator - a bit of copying is good for the soul, but copyright holders - not artists - having final yay or nay is Bad for Business. And I'm not having it.

I bought this computer, and I bought this disk. I will play this disk.

Even if I have to nybble it to death. My machine - my frackin' rules.

zapper1998
05-05-2006, 06:53 PM
Heck with the DaVinci Code. I'm gonna go see CAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARS (http://www.pixar.com/featurefilms/cars/)!!!


YA Cars yes a must see Movie


When does it start again??

Michael

Verlon
05-05-2006, 07:24 PM
And more to the point, the DVD makers DO object to your ability to fast forward or just hit menu. They have tried to push through that they have the RIGHT to MAKE you watch all that stuff when you watch their DVD.

Its just that they haven't won that court case yet.

T-Light
05-05-2006, 07:47 PM
Verlon-

Its just that they haven't won that court case yet
if it's a British court it's only a matter of when - Corporates allways win over public freedom/interest here.

Bog-

I bought this computer, and I bought this disk. I will play this disk.
Even if I have to nybble it to death. My machine - my frackin' rules.

It doesn't get better or more accurate than that. M$ is trying to get graphics card manufactures to create copyright protected players - last I read, none had taken to it.
Unfortunately it's only a matter of time to $'s over pride. I'm 100% with bog, this is getting (EXTREMELY) extreme.

I feel the call of the skull and crossbones vibrating through my being.

hrgiger
05-05-2006, 08:46 PM
Is it just fast-forward that's disabled, or can you use chapter-skip and/or the menu button to escape?

I use the menu button generally but the skip button is also disabled on some of mine as well. But that's besides the point. It's just the principle of the thing.

Sensei
05-05-2006, 11:55 PM
In Poland author's law made in 1995 allows using published copy of movies or music, and allows giving copy to friends and familly.. I would break the law only if I would publish to unknown to me people, through network and let them download files from me.. In other words, I can download from p2p movies and music, but cannot add them to Shared Folders which is fine, because it slows down the whole network when somebody wants to download from me.. ;)

This does not include software application, which are illegal to have without licence..

In our law Pirates are not the people who download, but only who publish free, and Bloody Pirates who sell..

Just in theory.. ;)

I remember times when I was little boy waking to Primary School and there was a few regular shops in the city were you went and purchased illegal software on disks just like that.. Usually you had to give them your disk and they charged you for copying.. Remember program X-Copy on Amiga.. ?? But after introducing author's law in 1995 they stopped working like that, it would be too risky..

Movie producents can't complaint on me.. I was in the last year in a cinema arround 50 times leaving in them 250-400 dollars including pop-corn, chips, coca-cola and stuff like that.. Regular price for ticket is $5 and it's quite a lot for normal people here.. I don't know anyone else who is going to cinema more than 3 times per year..

BeeVee
05-06-2006, 01:19 AM
The problem with getting the new formats to play is one down at the root of your hardware and software and a little thing called HDMI that will ensure that most people that have already bought a so-called "HD Ready" TV set will get a nasty shock when they get their Blue Ray player and HD TV source sorted and discover that the thousands of dollars, euro, pesos they paid wasn't quite enough. Caveat emptor (http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=30780)...

B

DiedonD
05-06-2006, 03:00 AM
In some countries, you can buy anything: Lightwave, Messiah, especially Max, all video games, all the movies for 1.5 dollars or thats about a euro or so. Regardless content. Its the CD's that count on them. One CD 1.5$. Two 3$. If you buy 4 you get the 5th free. Of course its all illegal, but they sell like crazy. It all comes within 2 weeks, and most work just great. Its annoying to pay for 750 euros while that guy goes ahead and buys the same thing that works exactly the same, and he can work with it, theres little chance to find out that he/she is using a pirate version of 3d software, and earning all the juices from it. While we have to pay 750 euros with dongles and stuff.

Thats annoying. People go watch movies in theatres, and for two weeks theres alread a DVD for it!

I think that piracy is the other side of the coin from what your talking about. It maintains peoples interest for cheaper products, and they earn themselves. In the end everyone in this bussiness is harrasing the consumer's money in one way or another. Just that some work "legally" and some work "naturally and more easily".

Para
05-06-2006, 04:09 AM
Since we're sharing stories now I have two I'd like to tell you.

The first one is about those rental DVD:s. I know a guy who after getting a DVD player started renting DVDs instead of VHS cassettes. He has always rented a lot of movies so this was natural transition to new technology for him. With VHS he always rewinded past the legal blahblah but since he couldn't do that with DVDs, he decided to contact all the possible bodies (rental shops, publishers, distributors) and simply asked them "WTF is crap?". Those who answered gave answers which were basically "We must assume you are a bad criminal thus we have the right to annoy you."

So he being a tech-savvy person and all downloaded DeCSS + some open source decoding program and hacked together his own version of the program which basically dumped the DVD to an image file, stripped away all the legal jibberish, menus etc. since he never watched extras and then made a nice MPEG2 of the movie itself which was then sent through his LAN to his media desktop automatically.

Last I heard he still keeps using that program with rented DVDs. He doesn't keep the movie files for obvious reasons but it kinda makes me smile to see how far people are willing to go to make things easier for themselves.

___

The second story is about Star Wreck: In the Pirkinning which most of you guys probably know. It's available as a free download under Creative Commons and there's also a DVD which you can buy.

But like with every at least semi-popular movie, there's also rather interesting pirate versions of the DVD. There's one Chinese pirate version which claims the movie stars Russell Crowe among other big names. Then there's Russian version which is beyond my comprehension and the latest pirate version is actually made by someone who lives in USA and he sells it as minor Star Trek conventions and such.

While those three true pirate versions of DVD aren't very heart warming to exist they were to be expected. As a curiosity it's used in the Wreck Store (an actual place in Tampere, Finland) as an advertisement using the point that the movie was good enough to be notified by the pirate DVD production people as a way to advertise the movie.

Weetos
05-06-2006, 04:55 AM
what's really getting frustrating with DVDs is that people that pay for the content get annoyed by ads and copy protections, while the others who stole it can watch it without ads and can even make a backup copy since the protection has been taken off. So being honest means getting annoyed and considered as a potential pirate - and this is so dumb that honest people now consider piracy as an option so they can freely use the DVD they have bought legally :stumped:

If it's legal to prevent the user from skipping the ads, nothing prevent the editor/distributor to put one hour of non-skippable ads before you can expect to see the movie. if they do so, they will have to give the DVD for free, because nobody would buy them anymore

jeremyhardin
05-06-2006, 01:05 PM
what's really getting frustrating with DVDs is that people that pay for the content get annoyed by ads and copy protections, while the others who stole it can watch it without ads and can even make a backup copy since the protection has been taken off. So being honest means getting annoyed and considered as a potential pirate - and this is so dumb that honest people now consider piracy as an option so they can freely use the DVD they have bought legally :stumped:

My sentiments exactly. In trying to prevent piracy, they've driven more people to it. They declared war on an enemy using weapons against the allies. Odd then that the allies would become the enemies.

Bog
05-06-2006, 05:46 PM
It's the crossing-curve thing.

NewTek can't handle much piracy, 'cause it's a small company making something that's distillate of brilliance. Paramount can lose millions of dollars of DVD sales and it's a drop in the ocean. Less than 1%. Probably in the same order of magnitude that they lose from cocked-up runs of disks, sleeves and lawyers savagely beaten with copies of "Free Culture".

Whichever tard put the 9Beta on their website deserves to be struck off the list of people NewTek will ever do business with. And, preferably, sued to h-e-double-hockey-sticks and gone. Not that anyone who'd so such a thing would actually be worth any frelling money, but pour encourager les autres.

Whoever put unskippable 5 minute copyright crap (and unskippable trailers, the gobsh*te) deserves to have his eyelids stapled to his eyebrows and be locked in a room consisting of six video walls, all showing QVC. 24/7. For all time.

zapper1998
05-06-2006, 06:04 PM
Hey, how about the trend in TV now to advertise with popups?! They are getting freaking HUGE!! They are getting so big you sometimes miss some of what is happening in the show! Man they make me mad!

I agree to this, I hate the POPUPS arrgghhh

T-Light
05-06-2006, 06:06 PM
Wheetos-

If it's legal to prevent the user from skipping the ads, nothing prevent the editor/distributor to put one hour of non-skippable ads before you can expect to see the movie. if they do so, they will have to give the DVD for free, because nobody would buy them anymore

But people wouldn't know until they'd bought the disk. Which brings up another point, nowhere on the DVD covers is there any mention of forced ads, previews etc, which (in the UK) it may be worth bringing up with Trading Standards.

Meaty
05-07-2006, 11:07 AM
T-Light,

I think that when you get to an extreme like that, the market reacts. Case in point, Sony with their recent rootkit snafu. If the market makes a big enough stink about something, industry will respond.

It's interesting; has anyone ever seen the movie Minority Report? I thought that all the advertising of the future portrayed in that was over-the-top, but it might not be... :stumped:

Sarford
05-07-2006, 03:33 PM
I personaly think the who anti-pirate story of big companies is just a hoax, a smoke screen put up to try and wrangle customers more money out of their pockets. If it was such a big problem Adobe could never have payed a freakin 3.4 Bilion dollars for Macromedia since Photoshop is one of the most pirated programs and for the longest time.

In a recent article about software patents I read that the big companies are trying to get legal that they have the right to log on to your computer and alter your software you have purchased from them on your machine, corupt it or even remove it if they think u have a pirated copy. Even make it so thay you or other persons cant open files made with that software etc.

I'm all for buying the software if you're gonna use it seriously, for hobby or work. But I also think that there are limits in what companys may make their customers have to put up to.

ps: On subject, Lightwave has apeared on a coverdisk. While cleaning the attic today I found a coverdisk from 3D World, december 2002 (i believe) with a version of Lightwave 7.5 discovery edition for mac and pc on it.

pixelinfected
05-07-2006, 04:09 PM
i'm agree, but
i prefer that not pay the honest user, like i told in past, like honest user that pay all software and buy all upgrade, i work fine with newtek, but many other society that not use dongle cause a lot of headace to me, with their strange way of hardware locking, or like microsoft, that not understand why , for a period, i format and reinstall winxp every two-three days, and naturally i need to re authorize, they tell i not need to do that... first i about an os without a limited time of reinstall of same computer, second in that period i review a lot of software and hardware and to be professional i format and restart clean win after every different test, be cause many different way of recover sistem of xp is too bugged to work for me...

all industry have all rights to protect themself from piracy, but not complex he life of honest users, or all honests user must find pirated version of software to work easy? it's crazy.

T-Light
05-07-2006, 06:07 PM
Meaty-

T-Light,
I think that when you get to an extreme like that, the market reacts

I'm not talking about 1hr of ads, I'm chomping at the bit at forced 5-10 min ads. :devil:

On the pont of legality, here's something to consider. I'm going to have to go through some of dvd's to find the explicit ad I'm looking for, but here's the gist.
You wouldn't steal clothes.
You wouldn't steal food.
So why would you steal DVD's?

Er guys, that's slander, the tone isn't posing a question, it's accusing, plain and simple.

Here's the legal definition from wikipedia (not absolute I admit, but good enough)


Privilege and Malice
Almost all legal systems, including those of the United States, Scotland, and England and Wales, require in some situations that the subject of the communication prove, in a civil court, that the defendant made the statement with "malice", meaning either believing it was false or with "reckless disregard" for whether it was false. This is known as "qualified privilege"; a typical example is a complaint of professional misconduct.

Here's the link
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libel

The REALLY important part being-

either believing it was false or with "reckless disregard" for whether it was false

They force EVERYONE to sit through that accusation.

Guys, I really am ringing Trading Standards tomorrow, at the very least, it's worth hearing what they have to say.

Wolvy_UK
05-07-2006, 06:29 PM
I get fed up seeing that advert on every DVD I buy too T-Light.

It' s a bit stupid putting it on a DVD that you' ve bought.

" So why would you steal DVD' s " Well I did' nt steal it, I just bought it, so why are you showing me this advert ?? ! I can fast forward it, but it' s still annoying.

Another even more annoying thing for me is ( someone may have said this already, I hav' nt read whole thread ), when the film has finished, and all this copyright stuff comes up with about 10 different languages, and it won' t let you fast forward it or even get to the main menu, you just have to let it go on for 5 minutes.

Sarford
05-07-2006, 06:51 PM
It took me a while to find the article again but here is the link:

http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/users/rja14/tcpa-faq.html

If you think that forcing to watch a comercial is bad you have another thing comming...

You might think at first "What has this to do with comercials on DVD's?" but think a bit further then, this has to do with who sees what, when and where. And guess what, your not the one who decides...

Bog
05-07-2006, 06:59 PM
T-Light,

Go for it, pal.

I hate to say this, but when I buy a DVD these days, the first thing I do is drop it into my mainbox, fire up FLASK-MPEG and go make a mug of coffee while the disk gets ripped. Then I strim out the crap that I don't want to look at and move the trimmed MPEG to where the media-transfer box can see it, and watch off that.

Now, admittedly I'm a hardcore bastich with a tonne of very hard-earned kit that makes ripping a 9GB DVD a one-hour job, and I've enteched my house that such brutal measures are possible. But I'm so frelling sick of this crud - and, indeed, being called a thief by every disk I buy - that these are the measures I take.

****, I was Naughty for many years before I became Nice. My main client (the British Library) is an outspoken opponent of DRM. Not everyone's as lucky as me to have the tools, talent and technology to just brutalise every disk that comes into their house.

And, to be honest, I shouldn't have to. I bought the **** thing - the pirated versions are, frankly, easier to watch. Lower quality, though, so I buy legit.

Then rip.
Trim.
Mix.
And burn.

T-Light
05-07-2006, 07:18 PM
Sorry, double post, please see the next :)

T-Light
05-07-2006, 07:18 PM
Wolvy_UK

I get fed up seeing that advert on every DVD I buy too T-Light.
Cheers Wolvy, let's see if we can kick some bottom :thumbsup:
Sarford

It took me a while to find the article again but here is the link:
I was looking for something very similar the last time the 'corporates V's Us' came up :thumbsup: , ps BeeVee mentioned something V nasty along these lines regarding HDTV :(

The Infamous 'Bog' :)

when I buy a DVD these days, the first thing I do is drop it into my mainbox, fire up FLASK-MPEG
:D The chap I mentioned earlier in this thread doesn't have your kind of kit, I think his brother handles the tech and it takes around 30 hours! I have indeed handled such things in the past but only for bits - beauty shots - good filmography etc, the kind of artsy knowledgable things I'd like to reflect on for jobs, (And still only on DVD's I own - not the ones I rent, it's still a bit naughty but it's for my use only) Like my buddy I don't have the kit to do this quickly.:thumbsdow

Anyway, thanks guys, here's to tomorrow.

DiedonD
05-08-2006, 02:05 AM
Appart from photoshop being the most pirated software, out here 3dmax certainly has the second place. And pirate versions regarding softwares, usually work as well as the original.
And its striking to see how sometimes movies are almost the same quality as well. Of course with no adds.
The downfall is that sometimes you get a movie with Tom Cruise and that AA I dont know his name, where Tom plays the assassin, I forgot the name of the movie. But the recording was so bad, that you couldnt see Tom completely, only the half of his face for the most part. And when you complain to the pirates they say " Yeah, Tom Cruise decided not to show up all that much on this one, lets hope he does next time".
I mean, they say it harms consumers, and sometimes they do, but its so rare, and cost effective that if they wanted to have it truly forbiden they wouldve found a way by now for sure. SO I agree, Its the "Free Culture" thing that is standing in their way.

T-Light
05-08-2006, 02:05 PM
Rang Trading Standards, loads of fun.

Basically trading standards no longer runs from a central location, so...

Westminster Trading Standards told me to call Durham Trading Standards.
Durham Trading Standards said since March they can no longer deal with this and I had to ring a NEW group called Consumer Direct North East.
Consumer Direct NE said this wasn't anything to do with them as forced advertising on DVD's wasn't aginst the law. If I wanted to complain about the 'You would'nt steal a car' advert I'd have to ring The Advertising Standards Authority.
I rang the Advertising Standards Authority and they replied ' I'm sorry, that's out of our remit'.

The fact that Consumer Direct NE said that forced advertising on DVD's wasn't illegal, I do think if there's any case at all here this is where it could be fought.

In virtually all walks of life, from can's of beans to legal documents, everything must state what it is your buying down to the last detail - AND it must be clear and readable. Why is it then that DVD's don't have to state on the label that they contain (x) minutes of unskippable ads, and one anti-piracy ad that viewers may find considerably annoying?

T-Light
05-08-2006, 08:16 PM
Just about off to bed, so here's a quicky.

One thing that can really do some damage to DVD pirate sales. Shopping in Tesco's today and came across Panic Room 3 DVD special edition (LW titles - 20 SFX featurettes)

All for the whopping price of 2.84 :thumbsup:

Gyphon
05-08-2006, 09:02 PM
Too many pages on this topic... thus did not read all of them.

If someone pirates some 3D software and then has fun learning how to do stuff with it and does not sell the results, then Newtek is not harmed. How can they be? The real pirates of LW out there are non-pros. They do not profit in any way... well except the success of making some CGI art, which may or may not be that good anyway. The people Newtek make a profit from are those that are doing this professionally. The CGI industry is ****ed big and the pros make a good living, thus they can afford to buy the software and give Newtek what they are due. The developers are not starving, trust me.

So really, what's that big deal? If you are a pro then you have to buy the software or word will get out and no one will touch you. There are checks and ballances in the community and no real need to expend the time or money with complicated protection.

loki74
05-08-2006, 09:52 PM
well except the success of making some CGI art, which may or may not be that good anyway.

....which they could have done in discovery mode, no?

and besides... lets say I'm an amatuer painter. If I go and steal some top-quality brushes and paint so that I can make some art. Is it justified simply because I'm not a pro? And what if theres a place where I can get some good, cheaper supplies to make my art (A:M, Cheetah3D...) And what if theres a place with some other not as good, but pretty good brushes and paint for free? (can you say, Blender?) Is there really any way I can justify stealing the brushes and paint I did?

To me its not whether or not you make a profit, or if a developer is starving. It's the principle of it. Getting for free what people have worked on so hard, and what others pay big bucks for... thats not right.

Imatk
05-09-2006, 01:19 AM
....which they could have done in discovery mode, no?

I agree... don't think people should pirate stuff if they're going to use it.

BUT... and this is kind of a big but. The discovery edition is not exactly... visible anywhere on the site. So, perhaps this is yet another reason why they should put one up now instead of some future date? And who knows when that date will be?

See my post about the discovery edition if you have any questions.

NanoGator
05-18-2006, 07:47 AM
My sentiments exactly. In trying to prevent piracy, they've driven more people to it. They declared war on an enemy using weapons against the allies. Odd then that the allies would become the enemies.

More than once, I've gone to a theater and sat through the anti-piracy ads and heard somebody say "You can download movies on the internet?!" I'm not sure why those guys didn't give more thought to the idea that they're annoying people at the theater and then informing them that there are alternatives. Heh.

Bog
05-18-2006, 08:12 AM
I usually shout out "My DivX torrent doesn't have this bit!".

One of these days I'll get dragged out of the theatre in chains, I'm sure.

teemue
04-01-2007, 05:28 PM
Hey, I'm a student still. But I Have a usb-dongle, yay! :) So don't eat me if I say that first time I touched lightwave at school was a copy from a friend. He also showed lots of things what you can do with it and I was impressed with the modeling tools and all the gadgets. The thing is, I used lightwave then to try out stuff, to do some funny things for myself, some game models for an sdk etc. All for the heck of it. Never money involved.
The thing is this : evaluation and discovery demos usually for a fast user like me don't really give an impression of a chance to see ALL of it. I want to know what the software can Really do, without any restrictions.

..who in Newtek would go and sell a person a "nice tool which you can use to make cool looking stuff just for fun"? They make it for industry, from industry.

I'd go as far as making all software in the world evaluation. You pay there where money moves. Not before, that would just make it fair for all of us.

That's what I'd do if I ever go back on software developement.

cresshead
04-01-2007, 05:41 PM
during my time as a college lecturer teaching 3dsmax and lightwave amongst various 3d software i was committed to also teaching people the value of buying software and not stealing it...

yet some still remain resolute that 'your a dumbass' if you do buy it when you can nick it no problem....

interesting thing for me is that those who i suspect/know who still use stolen software will never get much in the way of help from me as i have zero respect for them especially if they make money out of their illieagle creations...

it's a case of the'll never see/walk thru the doors of opportunity which remain closed to them with their ''fallen off the back of a lorry'' jack the lad attitude.

i am happy to report that quite a few of my now ex students have indeed 'seen the light' and bought their own commercial software, be that lightwave, cinema4d, hexagon, 3dsmax, vue, z brush or xsi....

as for lightwave there's a 30day demo which then turns into a discovery mode after 30 days...

bobakabob
04-01-2007, 05:52 PM
Newtek could always expand the user base by giving away an older version of LW on a few popular magazines coverdisks and reap the rewards on the upgrade offers. No piracy neccessary. :thumbsup:

Don't think this is such a big thing in the States, but most British computer mags run offers like this all the time, it isn't unusual to see in excess of 1-2000 worth of software spread across the covers of only 2 or 3 mags.

Just food for thought

Yes it's common practice with many software companies and a great marketing strategy. Strange Newtek have never tried this. Why not give away Lightwave 5? I know people who are hooked on Truespace and now pay for upgrades since they got it free with a magazine!

Exception
04-01-2007, 07:45 PM
The interested thing about this whole discussion is that there seems to be a differing notion of 'property' among different people.
Some people relate it to using someone elses wife 'just to try her out', others to sleek advertisement methods that will actually draw in more buyers.

What has been going on in recent philosophy and theory, which is reflected, strengthened and created by new models on the internet is that the whole idea of 'property' is preposterous in the first place. The Open Source movement has shown far and beyond any doubt that there is good profit to be made creating free software. Those who have the most to gain from using it will be the ones most willing to pay for its improvement and expansion, hiring people to do this, while hobbyists, students and artists can use it for free. It works, and it'll be here to stay. The idea of property is a very ancient one and hard to dislodge from our society, but if you really sit down and think about it in a metaphysical sense, it's really a funny concept.
I own this land. The earth on it is mine. Is it mine 9 foot deep and 10 foot high? Do I own the molecules that are part of the land, or just this virtual 3D block. How high is my land? Is the pollution that is in the earth mine, or someone elses? Do I own the animals that live on my land? Do I own the people? Do I own inventions made on my land, or trees that grow there?

500 years ago you used to own the people that lived on your land.
Now you just own the trees.
And in 50 years you don't own the trees, as they're alive as well, and noone asked them what they wanted.

Funny thing is, none of it is 'yours'. It's not even 'ours'. It's part of the whole we live in, and this whole division of material assets is just really undefendable in any theoretical way. Still it's become like this, just like people killing other people becase they have different color hair, or like red jelly beans in stead of the purples.

We're a pretty stupid species... :)

Making money to have a good life is fine, and doing things you enjoy is even more important. If you provide a service that is valuable to others, you will have food on your table. Meanwhile let others do what they want. If it doesn't hurt you, then it's quite allright.

lots
04-01-2007, 08:48 PM
I suppose if someone found murdering to be enjoyable then this would be ok too eh? :)

I do agree with you though, Exception...

mattclary
04-01-2007, 10:48 PM
LightWave is just so cheap, there is no excuse not to by it if you like using it.

robk
04-01-2007, 11:34 PM
Question:
Can I get someone to refund me for all the crap software I have bought over the years that never stood up to the hype. No, I didn't think so.

Verlon
04-01-2007, 11:38 PM
....which they could have done in discovery mode, no?

and besides... lets say I'm an amatuer painter. If I go and steal some top-quality brushes and paint so that I can make some art. Is it justified simply because I'm not a pro? And what if theres a place where I can get some good, cheaper supplies to make my art (A:M, Cheetah3D...) And what if theres a place with some other not as good, but pretty good brushes and paint for free? (can you say, Blender?) Is there really any way I can justify stealing the brushes and paint I did?

To me its not whether or not you make a profit, or if a developer is starving. It's the principle of it. Getting for free what people have worked on so hard, and what others pay big bucks for... thats not right.

Ok YOU try working on a project in discovery mode and see how useful that is. When I upgraded to XP64, there weren't any dongle drivers for it. I got to try it. It is not exactly useful....or it is well crippled if you want to look at it from the other end.

At $800, Lightwave is an absolute steal, but that is still more money than a lot of people can afford. My nephew, for example, has expressed an interest, but that is beyond his reach. So I pointed him to the Maya PLE (it'll take him more than 30 days to learn it).

It doesn't compare to stealing brushes. When I steal your paint brushes, you no longer have them. If I download a copy of Lightwave, the original still exists. It is a WHOLE different thing (you are not deprived of yours) and is why the whole thing is seen differently by the masses.

Now I LOVE the idea of giving away LW6 as a learning tool (much as Maya has the PLE). Yank out the dongle and the ability to add other plugins and you're set. I vote for 6 over 5 for UVs and SubDs since they are well used these days. Maybe even have it regilstered and allow them to upgrade into a full seat for a couple hundred bucks off after they've had it a year or so.

Lamont
04-02-2007, 12:18 AM
NT is one of the few companies who are humble when it comes to the price of their software.

loki74
04-02-2007, 12:25 AM
Ok YOU try working on a project in discovery mode and see how useful that is. When I upgraded to XP64, there weren't any dongle drivers for it. I got to try it. It is not exactly useful....or it is well crippled if you want to look at it from the other end.

At $800, Lightwave is an absolute steal, but that is still more money than a lot of people can afford. My nephew, for example, has expressed an interest, but that is beyond his reach. So I pointed him to the Maya PLE (it'll take him more than 30 days to learn it).

It doesn't compare to stealing brushes. When I steal your paint brushes, you no longer have them. If I download a copy of Lightwave, the original still exists. It is a WHOLE different thing (you are not deprived of yours) and is why the whole thing is seen differently by the masses.

Now I LOVE the idea of giving away LW6 as a learning tool (much as Maya has the PLE). Yank out the dongle and the ability to add other plugins and you're set. I vote for 6 over 5 for UVs and SubDs since they are well used these days. Maybe even have it regilstered and allow them to upgrade into a full seat for a couple hundred bucks off after they've had it a year or so.

Calm down. No need getting worked up over last year's words.

So what if I still have my copy, or if NT still has its copy. This is captialism, you can buy if you want, if its to pricey than dont. There are cheaper options if the object is entirely to "learn 3D" or for "less fortunate people to be able to make art." Guess what, high end tools cost a lot of money to develop. It would be AWESOME if I could own Maya Unlimited and RealFlow and Fusion and Nuke and Shake, but guess what? I cant afford it. Sure, I could make some pretty cool stuff with those programs, but that does not justify me stealing them.

Believe me, if I could justify stealing from those folks at Autodesk or NextLimit, I would. But there really is no justfiying it, no matter how hard you try. Your justification seems to be guided entirely by your personal situation re: your nephew. For that I am truly sorry, but he does have some very cheap solutions available. Blender is free, and at $300, A:M is a ridiculous steal. I would still likely be using A:M if it ran properly on Macs.


Case and point: Theft is theft. Don't do it.

EDIT:

Yes, discovery mode is crap. I agree that it would be nice if NT released a free version for folks like their nephew. The argument above is entirely about pirating software, not NT's products/policies.

Titus
04-02-2007, 12:59 AM
Why not give away Lightwave 5?

You mean give a version that is 10 years old?

StereoMike
04-02-2007, 01:31 AM
Could do more harm than good.

mike

Bog
04-02-2007, 01:43 AM
I'm trying to remember if tools even had falloff in 5.0. Even if they did, it was a very, very limited toolset compared to today's LightWave. Might well give the wrong impression.

toonafish
04-02-2007, 01:51 AM
Meanwhile let others do what they want. If it doesn't hurt you, then it's quite allright.


:thumbsup:

BeeVee
04-02-2007, 02:15 AM
I own this land. The earth on it is mine. Is it mine 9 foot deep and 10 foot high? Do I own the molecules that are part of the land, or just this virtual 3D block. How high is my land?

Until the 1920s (I think) the law in the US said that you owned a tranche. Up to the ends of the atmosphere, down to the core of the earth. That changed with the first law case of a farmer saying that an aeroplane flying overhead was disturbing his chickens...

B

D33P BLACK
04-02-2007, 02:24 AM
My first copy was a cracked lw7 i downloaded off of a popular p2p site. I agree that you need more than 30 days to evaluate. I also had a crack of max and a ple of maya. Had i not had the chance to compare over the course of a year, i probably wouldn't have stuck to it and chosen lw as my app. That being said, i dropped the cash when i felt i had progressed far enough in my skills to justify buying v9. What kind of dumbass drops $1000 bux on software if you don't even know wether you can even learn it? And i'm of the opinion that if you buy software, it should be your option to run it on as many machines as want as long as they belong to you, for a very, very small fee. Not the price of a complete version of the app or os (that's right Bill Gates, you greedy demon ****!).

colkai
04-02-2007, 03:54 AM
With so much uber-cool free software / dirt cheap software, there really is no excuse for using pirated software for getting into 3D, but still folks pirate versions of LW / XSI / Maya.

Most of those who do, will pirate everything I'd wager, mess around, realise it may actually involve doing something akin to work and then moving on. But hey, they can say "I have got Maya".

Funnily enough, I worked with someone who thought I was mental for paying for stuff he could download. Mind you, it's the same as folks asking why I don't charge the wildlife center for the stuff I donate.
The argument being, I could then donate more... but then of course, I'd want money for that. Never seemed to see that in the end, I was not donating a gorramn thing.

Kinda difficult to break that particular mental barrier. Like those who un-install and re-install 30 day demos so they in effect, never expire. Seen as "ok as I'm still using it in 30-day demo mode". Err, no, not really. :)

omeone
04-02-2007, 04:02 AM
Until the 1920s (I think) the law in the US said that you owned a tranche. Up to the ends of the atmosphere, down to the core of the earth. That changed with the first law case of a farmer saying that an aeroplane flying overhead was disturbing his chickens...

B

We've had that one until a couple of years ago, was only changed to facilitate the building of an underground railway.

On the piracy thing, I read a very interesting article about the CAD companies recently... They are expecting a huge boom in the Far East markets (whereas EU and USA are already saturated).

In order to gain the market edge Autodesk are giving away free seats. They say it's the only way to compete with the pirates.

However, no software is made for free, so who is paying for it? that's right - those of us wo have been paying for it for the last twenty years and continue to pay huge subscriptions.

Autodesk picking their best and most loyal customers to rip-off?

Ztreem
04-02-2007, 04:04 AM
The thing is if you want to break into 3D and you can't afford a major software, I think it's better to learn LW,Maya, or XSI from a pirate version then learning blender or something else. Because when you apply for a job they will use some of the major software NOT blender. If you then can say that you can do things in LW, Maya etc instead of blender I think it's easier to get the job. I don't say that this makes it legal or allright to use pirate software, it's more why people do so.

bobakabob
04-02-2007, 04:41 AM
You mean give a version that is 10 years old?

Is it really that long ago? Now you put it that way it doesn't sound so appealing :D However, check out Taron http://www.taron.de/ and Graham Mckenna http://www.3dgrafix.net/elite/think.jpg They produced absolutely classic work during the LW 5 cycle that ranks both imaginatively and technically with anything produced today.

I still think Newtek should follow the way of Caligari's Truespace and give away a fully functional early version with an affordable upgrade path.

LW_jackn
04-02-2007, 06:18 AM
If NT were to make LW 5.6c available for free, that would be worth something in my opinion. A n00b is going to have to learn the basics for the first part of their learning curve anyway.

Cut your teeth on that one. :)

Or maybe even 7.5 (but MHO is that is too new to be a freebie)...

mattclary
04-02-2007, 06:44 AM
At $800, Lightwave is an absolute steal, but that is still more money than a lot of people can afford. My nephew, for example, has expressed an interest, but that is beyond his reach. So I pointed him to the Maya PLE (it'll take him more than 30 days to learn it).


If he is still in school, don't forget he can get an educational discount. In fact, several courses avaialbe (Larry's being one) are counted as educational, so they qualify you for the education discount. I assume that is still in effect.

LW is cheap off the shelf, if you are smart and shop around, you get get it even cheaper. People sell old licenses all the time.

This guy was asking $500 at last update:
http://www.newtek.com/forums/showthread.php?t=61232

and...

http://www.newtek.com/forums/showthread.php?t=66105

lots
04-02-2007, 07:38 AM
I'd vote for a Lightwave PLE. Criple it so you can't load plugins (outside of the base set) and make it so it cant read object and scene formats from the full version (but allow full version to read PLE formats) and you're set :) Its pretty much what XSI's PLE does.. and maya too.

I suppose a water mark somewhere would be OK, but frankly, that's annoying :P It also gets in the way of seeing the results of your work (if you are indeed trying to learn). Perhaps, give a limited set of formats to save to.

Everything else should be fully functional. I think that would pretty much deter any pirates (the damaging kind, that pirate the software, then use it for profit). There will always be someone that downloads it. But most of the people that do, lose interest and drop it. They are also not likely someone that NT would have sold LW to in the first place. But with a PLE, more people would learn the skill set for LW, and who knows, if there are more LWers, NT makes more money, there are more studios with LW seats. Good for everyone?

Who knows :P

Matt
04-02-2007, 08:11 AM
wonder how many legal cases newtek is working up after reading this thread lol =)

LOL! Was thinking the same!

theo
04-02-2007, 08:31 AM
Using pirated software is hideously awful and the negative effects of this practice is just so wide ranging.

BUT... in my younger years... MOST of my software was cracked, including Lightwave. Within a couple of years of this naughty activity I "upgraded" (I better edit this: by "upgrade" I mean full versions, not actual upgrades- god, the internet complicates everything!) to paid versions of every single version of warez since it is impossible to be a part of a thriving professional community when your hands are dirty and the fact that I was making money also expedited this process.

It has been years since warez has seen my naked cpus.

High-end software, I think, is a bit of a different beast than music, art or low-end software. High-end software usage requires a commitment to a professional community (education, support, respect) and the software company (upgrades, user acknowledgment, support) for it to be utilized successfully, in my view.

There are so many variables that go into working at this level that automatically precludes a LOT of folks who are using piratz.

In the end... if you are using a pirat you are not one of us. It's that simple. If you want to be one of US buy into the company. It's that simple...really.

And, as always, there are exeptions to the above that should be sought out for prosecution.

Exception
04-02-2007, 10:24 AM
As usual in these discussions Open Source software is ignored.
I have Open Office, and it works quite well, and its succes is large and widespread. There are many programmers earning their living with making that software suite. But I didn't pay for it. They think that's quite allright. They don't mind at all. They encourage me to use it because they know that perhaps at some point in my life, I will have a large company, or work there, and perhaps call them for support, or have the software adjusted to my needs. That's when I'll pay them.

Like I was saying before, the concept of ownership is really not the only system we can organise our society by. It's the most basic, unrefined uncivilized one imaginable, and only those among the educated who stand to gain from it in a disproportionate way will defend it. And that's not Newtek.

capitalism... *shrug*.

Ben, interesting about the change in law eh? Suddenly you no longer own the air above your land. Nor the earth below it. But recently, you have started owning the polution of your land, even if you didn't pollute it. But in some places, you can still shoot someone if they walk upon a piece of earth that has circle around it on a map somewhere with your name on it, because you handed over some pieces of paper.

I'd say that a good portion of users of any software, including LW, have come from pirated versions. It's the reality of it. You never listened to a copied tape when you were younger? Never copied a video game?
Did you hurt someone with it? Would there be any change in the bankaccount or lives of the people who created that music or game if you would have played football on the street instead?

You can't force people to do the right thing. If they are decent people and earn money with software, at some point they will buy it. If they're not decent people, then you're not going to make them stop anyway, so stop wasting your time on these egocentric people, and spend your time with the ones who do.

It's very simple, people who post in the OB forums have a license. Those who don't, don't...
(hoping for an increase in OB participants here, mind you :) )

mattclary
04-02-2007, 10:31 AM
Exception, there is open source 3d software. Why are you still using LightWave?

theo
04-02-2007, 10:36 AM
As usual in these discussions Open Source software is ignored.

I'm all for OS. Great stuff, usually. Sometimes it can cause headaches, though, if you are using it with mission critical applications (like web apps) since support can be, well, pretty awful.

Intellectual property rights are very important for insuring the commercial viability of the smallest of the small. The only problem is that the smallest of the small can, usually, never afford to defend this right.

biliousfrog
04-02-2007, 10:40 AM
I'll be honest here & say that I would never have gotten into the 3d industry without learning on cracked software. I now own legit versions of all my software & will be looking to buy more in the future as I employ people...If I hadn't of used those "warez" I would still be making furniture & my small town would have some very poor freelancers. I didn't make any money with the illegal software, I didn't even make anything decent with it...but without it I would most likely have gone with 3ds Max as it appeared to be the major app of choice within the industry. Luckily (or not) I tried out everything & went with Lightwave...funilly enough before the company I worked for even bought a legit copy.

It's not big or clever & I'm not encouraging illegal software but, a few years ago when 3d apps would cost between 1,500 - 30,000, I doubt that the industry would have had any employees without it. Nowadays it's different, software is much cheaper but piracy probably does much more good to the professional VFX, games, design etc. industries than harm. Especially when companies like Newtek don't have demo's readily available.

mattclary
04-02-2007, 10:41 AM
As usual in these discussions Open Source software is ignored.
I have Open Office, and it works quite well, and its succes is large and widespread. There are many programmers earning their living with making that software suite. But I didn't pay for it. They think that's quite allright. They don't mind at all. They encourage me to use it because they know that perhaps at some point in my life, I will have a large company, or work there, and perhaps call them for support, or have the software adjusted to my needs. That's when I'll pay them.


Hey, now that you mention it, would you be interested in making your work open source? Can you post a download link for us? Looks like you have a lot of cool stuff on your site that would be really useful.

Exception
04-02-2007, 10:44 AM
Exception, there is open source 3d software. Why are you still using LightWave?

What kind of a question is that?

Makes no sense.



Hey, now that you mention it, would you be interested in making your work open source? Can you post a download link for us? Looks like you have a lot of cool stuff on your site that would be really useful.

All those tutorials I write, the 9.2 demo movie I make, the personal assistance I give here every day is not enough for you? Or the demo scenes for the 9.2 beta team?

Those models on the site are owned by the clients who comissioned them.

Is there any one in particular you want? If it isn't owned, I'll give it to you. They've paid for themselves over the years, I don't need money for them. If you use them for something, just put my name on it.

mattclary
04-02-2007, 10:50 AM
What kind of a question is that?

Makes no sense.


All those tutorials I write, the 9.2 demo movie I make, the personal assistance I give here every day is not enough for you? Or the demo scenes for the 9.2 beta team?

Those models on the site are owned by the clients who comissioned them.

If there any one in particular you want? If it isn't owned, I'll give it to you. They've paid for themselves over the years, I don't need money for them. If you use them for something, just put my name on it.

Just yanking your chain a little, man. Don't get too riled up. ;)

Exception
04-02-2007, 10:52 AM
No, I'm serious.
You want one of those models? It's fine with me...

I've been thinking of putting them up anyway, under the GPL.

I'd rather have a happy friend than 10$. :)
As long as I can afford that life style, I'm content.

mattclary
04-02-2007, 11:51 AM
Naaahh, I'm good. But if I ever think of anything I need, I'll give you a yell. :thumbsup:

Skonk
04-02-2007, 11:55 AM
What always gets me (and im not saying newtek have done this) is when software (and film companies for that matter) dish out totally unrealistic statistics on how much they lose over piracy. The fact is most of the people who use pirate software or watch pirate films would never have bought them in the first place. Its not 1 for 1, 1 use of pirate wares doesn't = 1 lost sale.

Personally i like to own the software i use and the movies i watch, which is why i have over 400 dvd's and a lightwave dongle sat infront of me but a lot of people cant afford them and/or wouldn't buy them regardless, so they go get a hooky copy, its not a lost sale and to say it is would simply be a fabrication.

loki74
04-02-2007, 12:22 PM
As usual in these discussions Open Source software is ignored.

I think I mentioned blender a couple times...?


Like I was saying before, the concept of ownership is really not the only system we can organise our society by. It's the most basic, unrefined uncivilized one imaginable, and only those among the educated who stand to gain from it in a disproportionate way will defend it. And that's not Newtek.

A very interesting opinion. But it's still just that--an opinion. The notion that society is organized by a single concept (ie ownership) is rather basic itself, if you ask me... And I'm not sure what exactly you mean by the "educated who stand to gain from it in a disproprtionate way." Are you implying that only rich smart people support the concept of ownership because they can use it to make money, presumably at the peril of the less fortunate?


I'd say that a good portion of users of any software, including LW, have come from pirated versions. It's the reality of it. You never listened to a copied tape when you were younger? Never copied a video game?
Did you hurt someone with it? Would there be any change in the bankaccount or lives of the people who created that music or game if you would have played football on the street instead?

Yes, I did pirate Flash when I was younger. So you do have a point--many of us do pirate. But I did not pirate LW, A:M, FCP, Combustion, DVDSP, or Soundtrack. So while you do have a point, it is somewhat irrelevant--sure many of us may have pirated before, but we have since turned from those ways because we realize how wrong they are.

And no, playing football instead would not affect the company's bottom line... however, a legitimate purchase would. Just because the company has not lost money, does not make it right.

If anything is primitive, if anything in this thread is unrefined or uncivilized, it is the concept that something is not wrong simply because it does not "hurt" someone per se.


You can't force people to do the right thing. If they are decent people and earn money with software, at some point they will buy it. If they're not decent people, then you're not going to make them stop anyway, so stop wasting your time on these egocentric people, and spend your time with the ones who do.

Ahuh... but as a company you can, and should, do your best to prevent people from doing the wrong thing.

mattclary
04-02-2007, 01:25 PM
The notion that society is organized by a single concept (ie ownership) is rather basic itself, if you ask me...

I'm going to have to vote that society is based on sex. You want more material possesions in order to influence potential sexual partners. Well, men at least. Money doesn't make the world go round, sex does. If it weren't for sex, we would still be living in caves. :beerchug:

colkai
04-02-2007, 01:34 PM
Suddenly you no longer own the air above your land. Nor the earth below it. But recently, you have started owning the polution of your land, even if you didn't pollute it.
OT, sorta, you're gonna love this. In hte paper today, a woman owns a plot of land and she parks her car there. In the deeds to her land and everything.
However, the council are constantly issuing her parking tickets because, against her request, they tarmac'd the area.

Now they are saying, she MAY own the land but THEY own the tarmac and so they are giving her tickets and have put a No parking notice on HER land to say she is not allowed to park there as it is now "public highway". Hehe, ahh money grabbing or what? :eek:

Phil
04-02-2007, 01:57 PM
Dig the tarmac up, return it to them in a skip, along with all the bills. After all, they obviously misplaced their tarmac because no contract for laying it, nor agreement to lay it exists. Mistakes happen. :D

Verlon
04-02-2007, 02:48 PM
Loki74 - you miss the point. I needed a free, functional, and legal solution to 3D for said nephew. So, he is learning Maya instead of Lightwave right now.

My first copy of lightwave was a cracked LW3 (yes 3, but it had a TEXTURED perspective view!) for the Amiga. I could in no way come close to buying the Video Toaster at the time (the price was like a third of my annual income before taxes). However, as soon as I could afford it, I bought LW5,6,7,8,9 Aura, Speed Edit, 3D Arsenal, and WEAP.

I passed on the much more popular 3DSMAX because of my experience with Lightwave (they actually have a user group and everything - which I can't find less than 100 miles from the Newtek office, but that is another rant).

The educational discount is great, but that doesn't do a lot of good for someone who isn't even old enough to work (and until he shows dedication to the idea, I am not spending the money on it, either).

I think giving away LW6 (without being able to add additional plugins, and maybe add a watermark) would be great. It has enough of the modern features (UV textures and SubDs come to mind) to provide a strong foundation for someone who wants to learn, but should leave enough to provide ample incentive to upgrade.

loki74
04-02-2007, 05:15 PM
Loki74 - you miss the point. I needed a free, functional, and legal solution to 3D for said nephew. So, he is learning Maya instead of Lightwave right now.

Okay, so you're doing the right thing... He's getting hands on experience w/ a 3D app, legally and for free. Is the fact that it's not LW really problem here? I started on A:M, which is vastly different from LW. The transition was really not that painful. And if he can wrap his head around Maya, I'm sure LW will be a piece of cake.

In any case, it is clear that I missed the point. I thought you were arguing a justification for pirating software. If your point is that LW should have a free version, hey, I'm all for that. It would be MUCH cooler to start with LW instead of Maya or Blender or whatnot. As far as what/how to do that, I can't say, since I've only been a user since 8.3...

Exception
04-02-2007, 07:32 PM
Piracy is not justified in the society we live in.
It's a moot point in a society that is more elevated than the one we do live in.
People advocating piracy in an intelligent way are often referring to the ideal of a scoiety that is not.
Nevertheless, piracy is 'wrong', because we all agreed to live in the society that we live in. But who makes those rules?

But on the same account, according to our society, eating meat is not wrong, and according to pretty much all of the ethicists it is. Also, getting rich over the suffering of others while not breaking any laws is considered okay by our society, but not by our ethic. So, does our current society have a singular stand on these matters? No it does not. and as long as there is a varied standpoint on issues like this, there will always be conversations like this. And they're good, as they will make the public aware of the issues at hand.

As a sidenote, there are many countries now which have given trees rights. So, you can't chop down a tree just because you own the land. Our society is in constant movement, and at some point, a decision will be made. Currently all the decisions in the US have been made in favor of the monopolising enterprises, and this does not benefit humanity as a whole. There will be a time when this will change.

I hope.

TSpyrison
04-03-2007, 07:18 AM
As a sidenote, there are many countries now which have given trees rights. So, you can't chop down a tree just because you own the land.

You are joking right? I hope you are joking...

BeeVee
04-03-2007, 07:23 AM
Ben, interesting about the change in law eh? Suddenly you no longer own the air above your land. Nor the earth below it.

The reason for the change in the law was purely one of pragmatism and a very good example of a forward-thinking supreme court. They reasoned that if the property law continued then airlines would have to pay for passage over every single bit of the US that was owned by someone and that flightpaths would often have to be drastically altered on the whim of an individual. It doesn't sound all that bad when you read it back, but given the difficulty with tortuous laws that are already in place governing property, simplifying made a good deal of sense! :D

B

Bog
04-03-2007, 07:25 AM
You are joking right? I hope you are joking...

I hope he is as well, but I'm afraid I can imagine it being real, alllll too easily.

Personally, I'm just going to quietly ignore laws that are more frothily insane than I can tolerate.

Verlon
04-03-2007, 07:37 AM
You are joking right? I hope you are joking...


If the tree has rights, it needs to pay rent....

Bog
04-03-2007, 07:49 AM
If the tree has rights, it needs to pay rent....

And taxes. No representation without transpiration!

gerry_g
04-03-2007, 07:51 AM
Well 'Big Arnie' has rights an he's kind o wooden, at least his acting allways was ;-)

biliousfrog
04-03-2007, 08:16 AM
Across the world certain trees are protected, Oak, Mahogany's, Ebony's, Rosewood's....They grow slower than they're being cut down. In the UK for example oak trees can't be cut down. Anything made from oak is made either from seasoned stock that is tens or even hundreds of years old or from fallen trees. Most old trees are also protected, if you want to cut one down you will need to get permission from the council. Housing estates & roads are often diverted or even cancelled because of trees....& rightly so, they were here first!

I used to make furniture & now make guitars in my spare time. Some species of wood have completely disappeared over the last few years because of their desirability. Cheaper & more common alternatives have always been available but people will always want what everyone else has...which brings us back to piracy :D

colkai
04-03-2007, 08:57 AM
In the UK for example oak trees can't be cut down. Anything made from oak is made either from seasoned stock that is tens or even hundreds of years old or from fallen trees.
Tell that to our local council, they've wiped out a whole slew of trees because they were "a nuisance" to some idiot residents. Makes me wanna spit. When it comes to making room for a few more houses for a developer lining the councillors pockets, have chainsaw, will travel.

OT rant I know, but when I moved here, there were trees everywhere, now it's just gorramn concrete and steel. :mad:

biliousfrog
04-03-2007, 09:03 AM
same here, unfortunately I feel somewhat responsible by working in arch viz.

Exception
04-03-2007, 09:04 AM
You are joking right? I hope you are joking...

No, very true.
And you might think it a bad thing, but it's a perfect example of what Ben calls forward thinking. Trees are alive, and have intrinsic value. Added to this is that they provide tangible services for more than the people who happen to own the land they stand on. Third, most trees are chopped down for frivolous reasons or sometimes no reason at all, which is completely contrary to how we should deal with nature in this day and age.
It's been a while since laws were passed to protect animals. That came after protecting women and children. Now it's time for trees. It doesn't mean you can never chop down a tree, it just means that you better have a very good reason for removing this live organism from our world.

As usual, the US is severely behind in matters like these.

As far as the 'rent' goes... that tree was probably there before you moved in there... should you not pay rent to that tree? :)

Captain Obvious
04-03-2007, 10:32 AM
Trees are alive, and have intrinsic value.
Under the assumption that life has intrinsic value, yes...

Bog
04-03-2007, 10:49 AM
Under the assumption that life has intrinsic value, yes...

*dons a T-shirt reading "Sentient Life First" and leaves it at that*

Exception
04-03-2007, 01:10 PM
Under the assumption that life has intrinsic value, yes...

If it doesn't, the theoretical framework of our ethic collapses, and it'll be a free for all. It's what our human rights are based on, our justice system and society. It's been extended to an non-anthropocentric view since that was untenable in the light of scientific discovery and our wish for contunued existence on this earth.
You can see the intrisic value in different ways, sure, humans as valueers (which is again anthropocentric) or humans as value-observers, but there's intrinsic value nonetheless.



*dons a T-shirt reading "Sentient Life First" and leaves it at that*

Did anyone say that sentience was not important?
How, in essence, is the existance and protection of a tree going to harm sentient life?
You might as well wear a shirt that says *I'll kill for survival*, which is an equally true but moot point.

Would be a nice shirt...
*hands shirt to bog*

Captain Obvious
04-03-2007, 01:35 PM
If it doesn't, the theoretical framework of our ethic collapses, and it'll be a free for all. It's what our human rights are based on, our justice system and society. It's been extended to an non-anthropocentric view since that was untenable in the light of scientific discovery and our wish for contunued existence on this earth.
If the fact that life has intrinsic value must be true because otherwise, our society would collapse, kind of proves that it doesn't*have any intrinsic value. ;)

loki74
04-03-2007, 01:37 PM
Exception--just out of curiosity, do you believe in the fluidity of right and wrong? Or do you believe in absolute, unchanging right and wrong?

Honestly, I do no think that eating meat can be compared to pirating software....

As far as giving rights to trees--thats just asking for trouble. Oftentimes human rights overlap or contradict (ie, free press vs. fair trial, public safety vs. privacy). Toss in "tree rights" and we're looking a huge convoluted mess.

Exception
04-03-2007, 01:40 PM
If the fact that life has intrinsic value must be true because otherwise, our society would collapse, kind of proves that it doesn't*have any intrinsic value. ;)

Well, it's not a fact, it's an ethic, the ethic of our western civilisation, which is ahead of our morals, since they are the result of an ethic, and far ahead of society.
I don't understand your reasoning concerning intrinsic value. It doesn't make sense to me. The understanding is that life has value with or without people around to observe it (the non-anthropocentric view), so wether or not society collapses, it does nothing to change intrinsic value.

Loki: right and wrong are things that are imposed by morals, and morals are created by ethic, and that's the realm of the stuff I talk about. I'm really interested in this. So, obviously, if your ethic changes, and it's never fixed, your morals and thus your right wrong, just, unjust etc changes. There's a lot of different models for this, consequentialism, deontological, virtue based, pragmatism, and then monism and pluralism to confuse the lot. But it's reasonably clear what at least everyone agrees on and that tends to be the ethic that we follow.

Eating meat is far worse than piracy, as it directly and materially hurts other people, animals and our ecosystem. Pirating software doesn't hurt anyone, unless you would have bought it otherwise. Yesyes it sounds extreme but if you really think about it, sit down and go through all the things our society believes in and fights for, in all effects, I'm sure you'll come to the same conclusion. It's just that society is lagging behind our ethic.

cresshead
04-03-2007, 01:41 PM
OT, sorta, you're gonna love this. In hte paper today, a woman owns a plot of land and she parks her car there. In the deeds to her land and everything.
However, the council are constantly issuing her parking tickets because, against her request, they tarmac'd the area.

Now they are saying, she MAY own the land but THEY own the tarmac and so they are giving her tickets and have put a No parking notice on HER land to say she is not allowed to park there as it is now "public highway". Hehe, ahh money grabbing or what? :eek:

if i were her i'd dig up the tarmac and dump it on 'their hiway':thumbsup:

or send them a bill for illeagle dumping of tarmac on hewr land....

Exception
04-03-2007, 01:50 PM
Oh that darned edit limit...

I wanted to add that of course you can disagree with all that I'm saying, it is of course not written in stone. It's also not just my opinion however, and if you're going to have a conversation about this, we better establish what we're talking about :)

Concerning tree rights being conflicting to implement, several countries are having no problems with it, sometimes even for decades. The problem is that the justice system of the US is very inefficient and inflexible, and is therefore not as capable to adapt to changes in ethic, or to allow for smooth and more to the point pursuance of justice, without being bogged down by really little issues.

Reading up on this stuff is fascinating. There's so much changing behind the scenes as we speak, in some cases governments are ahead of environmental movements, as they understand that the destruction of our habitat, the system we live in, will pose great problems for these same governments in the forseeable future. There's some amazing things happening in all kinds of fields, there's the whale vs anti whale issues concerning the Sea Sheperd (faring under the pirate flag), environmental justice, urban justice, intrinsic value debates, deontology versus consequentialism, convervation vs preservation, stewardship etc... All dealing with how we can continue our culture and species while securing a future for the whole system we inhabit.

Verlon
04-03-2007, 03:13 PM
As far as the 'rent' goes... that tree was probably there before you moved in there... should you not pay rent to that tree? :)

Is first come first serve a right? :)

I am fine with protecting trees from being removed faster than they can be replaced. Telling someone that, even on their own land, a tree must be protected much like an endangered species is good sense. It protects us from short sighted people out to make a quick buck.

The concept of that tree having a RIGHT not to be chopped is where I have the problem. I think there is an important distinction between 'choosing to protect' and 'right.'

Show me a sentient tree, and we can talk about rights (I'll take one of those shirts, Bog). Beyond that, it is alive. So are billions, perhaps even trillions of other things.

Do you take antibiotics when you're sick? What about the bacteria's right to live? Just because it chose to make its home in your body, does that mean you have the right to kill it? I mean, as a life form, it was here before you were, right? Gorram skippy I have the right.... I'll lay down some slash and burn pennicilliin in a heartbeat, should I feel so inclined.

And if the tree want's me to pay rent, then it should have bought the land first. As it is, its just a squatter. Further, if it has the RIGHT to my land, it needs to tell me in a language I understand (if I have to do it for other people, the trees have to do it for me). Finally, that tree better be ready to fight for those rights. We've had to fight for ours, and I am prepared to fight for mine....with a chainsaw if needed.

Exception
04-03-2007, 04:53 PM
Show me a sentient tree, and we can talk about rights (I'll take one of those shirts, Bog). Beyond that, it is alive. So are billions, perhaps even trillions of other things.


Interesting things...

Well, in your view, where are you going to draw the line between sentience and non sentience? There's no line to draw, it's not that clear at all. There are scientists that believe trees have awareness, although I personally doubt that. Also, if you do make a hard divide between sentience and non-sentience, you open up the sluices for the abuse of everything that is 'dead', like mountains, rivers and so on. They also need protection. From us, remember, we're the ones causing all the crap. We need to protect that which is benign from the parasitical nature of mankind. We need to think hard about how we can do that and not be thrown in jail every time we step on an ant or pick a flower. These things are not easy, and they might very well be counter-intuitive, afterall we've been living like this for eons... but now we're realising that if we want the power to harnass nature, we also need to accept responsibility. I think that's a good thing.



Do you take antibiotics when you're sick? What about the bacteria's right to live? Just because it chose to make its home in your body, does that mean you have the right to kill it? I mean, as a life form, it was here before you were, right? Gorram skippy I have the right.... I'll lay down some slash and burn pennicilliin in a heartbeat, should I feel so inclined.

Well, we're mixing up different concepts here. You're talking about self preservation, as it is the bacteria or you. In that case, according to our ethic, you are justified in defending yourself. Consequentialism also says that if your suffering outweighs the suffering of those bacteria, which is more or less judgeable by the complexity of the neural network, it's best to prevent the larger suffering to occur, in this case, to save you. Consequentialism is not unilaterally accepted however, but it helps in questions like this.


And if the tree want's me to pay rent, then it should have bought the land first.

That's saying that people who walked by the casino you are playing in has to pay you money when the game is over. 'property' is a human invention and does not extend to any other realms. It's unjust to subject other entities to these rules.


As it is, its just a squatter.

I hate those elms with anarchist shirts and piercings... :)


Further, if it has the RIGHT to my land, it needs to tell me in a language I understand (if I have to do it for other people, the trees have to do it for me). Finally, that tree better be ready to fight for those rights. We've had to fight for ours, and I am prepared to fight for mine....with a chainsaw if needed.

No. You have the power of life or death over that tree, and the ability to make that decision. The tree doesn't. You are therefore ethically forced to make an informed decision about that trees' life. It does not have to play along in any games we as humanity have created for ourselves. It has the right to flourish and procreate if it does not interfere with your right to prosper. Since you have the power to prosper somewhere else, it's hard to see how a tree will threaten your existence. Or is it those darn elms again? :)

T-Light
04-03-2007, 05:39 PM
How's this for a change in human law for as many foreward thinking countries as possible.

Been thinking about this for a few years, I'm not saying it won't have problems if it were implemented, but it's about as perfect a primary human law as you can get. (Primary as in the main law on which all other laws are based). It doesn't cover animal welfare or the environment as that's a seperate issue (at least in this draft).

Right then here we go. As the European Unions law on exporting duck eggs has over 11,000 words, this might come as a shock.

Human beings of adult age may engage in any activity so long as consent is given from all immediate parties.

Wording could possibly be shorter or more concise but essentially that's it in a nutshell.

examples...

burglary = illegal (non consent from owner)
car theft = illegal (non consent from owner)
vandalism = illegal (non consent from owner)
rape = illegal (non consent)
noisy neighbours = illegal (non consent from immediate parties)
murder = illegal (non consent)
mugging = illegal (non consent)
tresspassing = illegal (non consent)

Handgliding = legal (consent)
Walking the dog = legal (consent)
boxing = legal (all party consent) (Britains looking at banning this)
24 hour shopping = legal (All party consent) (Britain still has laws against it)
smoking bars = legal (all party consent) (Illegal in England soon)
porn = legal (all party consent) (Britains can now face prison - :rolleyes:)


Things which may go against the grain but also follow the above law...

drugs = legal (consent from all parties)
prostitution = legal (consent from all parties)
assisted suicide = legal (consent from all parties)


You have to be fairly open minded to get it, but once you do it's extremely difficult to find a problem with it (unless you like the fact that people from our own countries force their will on us without our consent on penalty of imprisonment or worse). It goes well beyond religious belief or current ethical teaching as it works no matter what you or your community believe is right or wrong. You can still live your life however you wish no matter what anybody says or thinks as that is your RIGHT under this law. It also prevents prime ministers, presidents or other heads of state imposing draconian measures (political, religious or other) on their citizens (something that is unfortunately on the increase).

It's also...
Very easy to teach to children.
Very easy to educate immigrants into the law of the land.
Everybody knows where they stand, no excuses.



Oh yeah, slightly back on topic, piracy is non consensual and would STILL be illegal :D

cresshead
04-03-2007, 05:43 PM
how about taking on some of the arab style justice

steal something: you have your non favoured hand removed at a hospital [amputation]

steal something again:....you have your other hand removed...[are we learning yet?]

rape someone...have a guess what's removed!

kill someone...you have your head removed...

so if you steal software you have an eye removed.....do it again?....no eyes!

T-Light
04-03-2007, 06:01 PM
Have an illegal copy of lemmings? Right then it's Sclera removal for you me-lad.

Maybe it's just me but I think that's a tad severe Steve :D

Caught with a dodgy copy of something? First offense = software removal.
Caught again? = pay the price of the software.

Penalties are a bit severe on this sort of thing already, as the governments are protecting the billion dollar corporates.

ie someone watches an illegal copy of say "Ewoks, fight for freedom", or whatever, at present they can go to prison for several years. The maths involved is they should have paid 3 to whichever rental company to see the movie. Because they didn't, We (the british taxpayer) have to spend $500,000 to put them in prison to keep a corporate exec happy.

It just doesn't make any sense at all.

mattclary
04-03-2007, 06:25 PM
steal something: you have your non favoured hand removed at a hospital [amputation]


Do they use a medical procedure nowadays??? :eek:

I thought they were still using the axe. Didn't realize they had become that... "civilized"? I wonder if they allow anesthesia and everything...

Bog
04-03-2007, 06:28 PM
*peers at Brent over his spectacles*

Have you ever heard of the Libertarian party, old man? And have you ever considered emigrating?

Can I at this juncture declare you to be "Good People", sans stricture on the simple and obvious understanding that "No Harm is No Foul", that "Force Must Never Be Initiated", and that "Unprovoked force must be met with force". Do what you you will, as long as it doesn't harm, inconvenience or coerce anyone else.

Live free.

Big love.

T-Light
04-03-2007, 07:00 PM
Sir Bog -

Have you ever heard of the Libertarian party, old man?
Yes

Live free.
Yes

Big love.
Yes

And have you ever considered emigrating?
Yes Yes YES :D

Bog
04-03-2007, 07:04 PM
*taps his US passport against his teeth*

I think we have work to do.

Verlon
04-03-2007, 07:32 PM
Exception: I choose to differentiate between 'choose to protect' and 'right.' I choose to protect mountains, rivers, and trees. They do not have the RIGHT.

Property is a human invention? Ok...what about ethics? You think fire ants have ethics? What about rights? Do you think a hungry alligator is going to respect your right not to be eaten?

I disagree that I am ethically forced. I would say that I intelligently CHOOSE to spare (or not) that tree. You speak of elms. I CHOOSE to spare the oaks on my land, but I have been a little less considerate of the cedar. I favor the oaks for a variety of reasons (cedar makes the soil acidic, causes allergies, and is hard on the water supply for the oaks). It is not so much an ethical choice as a practical one. The cedar is bad for the oak, bad for the grass, and bad for the wife. The cedar looses out. I choose to force it further from my house (though I also choose to leave a few on the land).

Scorpions and fire ants? Sorry, no sympathy from me.

AS far as a line for sentience is concerned, I do not think one is needed. I feel that common sense will do just fine. Until someone comes along and shows some compelling evidence for arboreal intelligence, the trees have to put up with being a less successful life form (by design or by chance depending on your views).

Cresshead: I think that arab justice you refer to (Hammurabi sp?) has shortcomings (not the least of which is the highly subjective definition of rape). Besides, if we're going to take piece off of criminals, lets recycle them. Don't take a hand..take a kidney and donate it to someone who needs it :) When you get to that second Kidney, they should be learning.... :P

T-Light
04-03-2007, 07:46 PM
Taps his rapidly aging UK passport against his teeth, thinks, is Mark good at 'green card' forgeries :D

Seriously though, been to the States a good few times. It's not any where near as 'free' as it would appear. On the other hand, they still have reasonably cheap ciggs, although to buy any in Walmart you have to have proof of age (you have to be 40 now, I kid you not).

Verlon
04-03-2007, 08:36 PM
new policy--must always have proof of age regardless of age. But you only need to be 18 to volunteer yourself as a cancer experi-- I mean smoke.

Exception
04-03-2007, 09:13 PM
Exception: I choose to differentiate between 'choose to protect' and 'right.' I choose to protect mountains, rivers, and trees. They do not have the RIGHT.

Well, you seem to be a good man, and if all people were like you, we wouldn't need measures like that. Unfortunately that's not the case and if we not legally establish the rights of our environment, which are there to protect us as much as the things they refer to, companies and less considerate people can just continue to strip mine mountains, pollute rivers and so on. We have laws to protect behavior we deem good and punish that which is bad. This is governed by ethics, and we need that to further our society. It's the way we evolve now, I like to think :)
I don't think many people would object, nor the law, if you have good reasons to remove certain trees, whether or not it is to protect other trees, significantly improve the soil to increase biomass in another way or save your marriage. But these laws protect those entitites who are affected by our society that do not and cannot have a voice, and can thus be taken advantage of.

I applaud your choice to make the proper and a well balanced decision... if only we all were like that. I've seen some very shrewd policy and decision making of politicians in favor of capital and against the environment that only benefited a very select few, and harmed a very large natural area. Do you agree that we need to have the tools to prevent this, and that talking about these things clarifies what is possible to regulate, and what is not?
Ethics is nothing but a very vast amount of conversations between people. Like we are doing now :)



Property is a human invention? Ok...what about ethics? You think fire ants have ethics? What about rights? Do you think a hungry alligator is going to respect your right not to be eaten?

Yes, ethics are a human invention, and always have been. The reason for having them versus other species and nature as a whole is that we have placed ourselves outside of nature, are no longer part of the foodchain, and therefore have a choice in how we choose to survive. Because we have this choice, in order to not rampantly tread upon everything we touch, we need rules to guide us to determine what is right and wrong to ensure a proper future and present for us, and for those entities that we have subjected.

The alligator will kill you because you are food. For the alligator it's a life choice, it follows its natural instinct either for sustenance or for self protection. Nobody will blame you if you kill the aligator before it kills you, as it would be in self defense. But if you purposefully go near an alligator in order to kill it, that's not self protection. You have a choice to eat something else that causes less suffering and less damage to an ecosystem, and you have a choice to steer clear from the alligator. The same cannot be said for him. Assuming you do not live in the middle of an alligator infested swamp :) Or are you in Brittain? ;)


Scorpions and fire ants? Sorry, no sympathy from me.

That's not necessary. Seriously, I'm not a treehugger, and I don't like camping, nor insects, dogs, horses.. you name it, but I respect their right to live as much as the next thing. Meeting a scorpion in the hallway can be considered a significant life risk to you or people around you. Kill it, I'd say. But if there's a butterfly or a bumble bee in there, it doesn't hurt to leave the window open for them to correct their own mistake, no?


AS far as a line for sentience is concerned, I do not think one is needed. I feel that common sense will do just fine. Until someone comes along and shows some compelling evidence for arboreal intelligence, the trees have to put up with being a less successful life form (by design or by chance depending on your views).

Well, less succesful... they've been around longer than us, and will be around longer than we will... also we need trees to survive, they do not need us in the slightest. In fact, we're only harming them. Protecting them more in our own interest than in theirs. Within all reson you can say that a tree is not self-aware, so life or death does not mean anything to the tree. It means something to us, though.
I understand your feeling that the line will be apparent through common sense, but I can name a few difficult cases :) But that's beside the point. If we don't clearly establish what the rules are in most cases (and sentience vs non sentience is definately a possibility), we allow those who have less noble intentions to abuse them and continue their destruction.

Japan's whaling industry is a good example. We all know whales are endagered and that without them the ecosystem of the seas will receive enormous damage, with thousands if not more species joining the extinction because they are directly dependent on the whales for survival. They are also sentient, up to the point where we can say that they are highly intelligent, have proven social lives, can cry, laugh, be bored, play, sing and be so sad because of the loss of loved ones that they die of sorrow. So, many countreis oppose the whale hunt. Japan says it needs the wales to continue a traditional ritual that is hundreds of years old. That in itself is debatable, but let's assume we accept the importance of this ritual. So, Japan is allowed to hunt for a certain non-endagered whale outside of the whale sanctuary. However, Japan continues to hunt blue (endagered) whales inside the sanctuary under the title of 'scientific' research. Each year hundreds of whales are shot with explosive harpoons to slowly bleed them to death in this sanctuary. This goes to show that even law will not withhold certain people to outright wreak havoc upon our world. So, ethic is one thing, law the next, enforcement another... and they each come with their own pitfalls.
Not an easy thing.

:beerchug:

hrgiger
04-03-2007, 09:54 PM
Boy, I didn't realize I was missing a pointless discussion about ethics, morality, and right and wrong. I miss all the fun stuff...

So, from the last few pages I surmise it's human vs. trees.

I'm going to have to go with the trees.

Verlon
04-04-2007, 12:17 AM
Well, I think we've wandered sufficiently off topic for one discussion.

We ever meet in the real world, Exception, and I'll try to make sure the beer comes in recycled glass. :) But I do not think we're going to see this quite the same even if we both agree that trees and whales need protection.

colkai
04-04-2007, 02:39 AM
There is trouble in the forest and the creatures all have fled, for the Maples scream oppression and the oaks just shake their heads. :)

Wolvy_UK
04-04-2007, 02:47 AM
No !! Don' t quote Rush !!

It' s all my brother is talking about lately until the new album comes out and all the concerts he' s going to. :)

DogBoy
04-04-2007, 02:57 AM
Well, I think we've wandered sufficiently off topic for one discussion.

Dang, just as I was gonna pipe up about animals having ethics to, and take it even more off topic :devil:

Never mind.

cresshead
04-04-2007, 02:59 AM
if we're doing quotes...

''clouds rushing by, hand in hand for the last time''

Bog
04-04-2007, 03:29 AM
It's amazing how philosophical tuesday evenings can get when you're working from home.... ;)

Sensei
04-04-2007, 03:45 AM
I have today new illegal LightWave client from Australia tring to register EasySpline... Interesting.. Yet another who even filled company name field.. He is doing medical animations, I thought it's quite well payable job.. ;)

cresshead
04-04-2007, 03:47 AM
if we get back on track and down to the nitty gritty of the questions that really need to be addressed...

so, these ''Dishonest lightwave users out there''....are they the vorlons or the shadows?

Verlon
04-04-2007, 04:11 AM
so, these ''Dishonest lightwave users out there''....are they the vorlons or the shadows?

Is that a not so thinly veiled jab, Cresshead? I mean you only changed 1 letter....and I own Legally own every lightwave since 5....even 64 bit versions :)

cresshead
04-04-2007, 04:28 AM
so,do you still have an ''encounter suit?''....if so you may think it prudent to return to vorlon space before the ''first ones'' come a knocking on your living spaceship door!

[only kidding of course!]

Verlon
04-04-2007, 05:45 AM
so,do you still have an ''encounter suit?''


depends on who I am 'encountering.'

T-Light
04-04-2007, 06:16 AM
Verlon -

But you only need to be 18 to volunteer yourself as a cancer experi-- I mean smoke
Walmart, Ft Lauderdale, age is definetely 40 :eek: Just presumed that was across the board, maybe it's just a local thing or a Florida thing.

Cresshead -

so if you steal software you have an eye removed.....do it again?....no eyes!
OK then, I've had a rethink, how about this.

First offense, remove an eye, give them an eyepatch.

Second offense, remove a hand and give them a hook.

Third offence, remove a leg, give them them a peg leg and throw in a parrot for balance.

As way of compensation to these unfortunate souls, once they've attained level 3, we give them a map and send them off looking for burried software licenses.

frantbk
04-04-2007, 06:16 AM
Very true. Piracy seems to be much bigger in schools and universities, where sometimes the teachers encourage students to get copies of a certain software in order for students to do homework at home. I've heard excuses like "It's OK for you not to buy the software because the studio you will work for will provide you the software you need." Sounds reasonable but seems extremely wrong thing to say.

Well the other side of the arguement is that if the school really needs the student to have a copy of lightwave or softimage xsi foundation then the software should be bought at a discount and then be a requirement of the class just like having to buy a book for the class.

This isn't done because nobody would take the class because of the high cost.

Bog
04-04-2007, 06:19 AM
Very true. Piracy seems to be much bigger in schools and universities, where sometimes the teachers encourage students to get copies of a certain software in order for students to do homework at home. I've heard excuses like "It's OK for you not to buy the software because the studio you will work for will provide you the software you need." Sounds reasonable but seems extremely wrong thing to say.

Nice! Do they say "You can nick a car to work on at home" in engineering class, too?

T-Light
04-04-2007, 06:36 AM
frantbk

This isn't done because nobody would take the class because of the high cost.

But there must be tens of thousands of autocad classes across the world, you can't go to a college without finding 6 week, 12 week, part time or full time courses available. Maybe it just needs colleges to realise the potential or the huge attraction of software like LW to make the push.

I used to work for a local college back in the 90's, at that time it was Blair's push on 'excellence' in education, blah blah. It all came down to the college making money of course. That particular college had over 11,000 students. I can see a course on LW actualy being a real crowd puller... 6 week course... learn how to do this!!! 12 week course excell to this!!!.Few posters up, the college would easily make a profit.

Then there's Newtek's newly aquired education weapon, Graham Toms :)
http://www.newtek.com/forums/showthread.php?t=63600

Verlon
04-04-2007, 07:34 AM
Verlon -

Walmart, Ft Lauderdale, age is definetely 40 :eek: Just presumed that was across the board, maybe it's just a local thing or a Florida thing.

Cresshead -

OK then, I've had a rethink, how about this.

First offense, remove an eye, give them an eyepatch.

Second offense, remove a hand and give them a hook.

Third offence, remove a leg, give them them a peg leg and throw in a parrot for balance.

As way of compensation to these unfortunate souls, once they've attained level 3, we give them a map and send them off looking for burried software licenses.

You have to be 40 to BUY cigarettes there?

T-Light
04-04-2007, 08:35 AM
:D Yup

I had trouble buying in Ellenton a few years ago, the age limit at that store was 21, I was 33 and they told me I didn't look old enough!!!, Goodness only knows how old you have to look to buy ciggies at Walmart :D

Bog
04-04-2007, 09:01 AM
I had to whip out the passport to prove my age to buy cigs in Boston at grocery store. They had to get a manager out to verify, then unlock (!) and sell me the smokes.

Amazing how cigarettes can flee their cartons and shove themselves into kiddies' mouths when they're not properly chained down.

mattclary
04-04-2007, 09:31 AM
:D Yup

I had trouble buying in Ellenton a few years ago, the age limit at that store was 21, I was 33 and they told me I didn't look old enough!!!, Goodness only knows how old you have to look to buy ciggies at Walmart :D

Here in the states (certainly in Fla.) you only need to be 18 to buy cigarttes. They may have a sign up that said "We will card anyone under 30", that just means, if you are over 30, they "probably" won't card you. When I was 25 the going consensus was I looked 16. Even today at 40, no one ever believes I am that old.

art
04-04-2007, 09:55 AM
yup, your arm looks young too :)

T-Light
04-04-2007, 12:28 PM
mattclary -

Here in the states (certainly in Fla.) you only need to be 18 to buy cigarttes.
Oh man, try travelling south...

They may have a sign up that said "We will card anyone under 30", that just means, if you are over 30, they "probably" won't card you. When I was 25 the going consensus was I looked 16. Even today at 40, no one ever believes I am that old.
That I beleive, If your not haggard, you have no respect.
I've had trouble even getting into nightclubs (even with my passport). On the cigarette issue, I had a friend close by, a 'biker' looking chap in his 50's with grey hair and grey beard showing his ID so I could buy ciggs at the age of 33 (for the proof of age at 21).

The '40' rule is genuine, I haven't had to be there for that one, but my Dad has. It exists. I'll get my Mom to prove it, She lives there (oh, how embarrasing)

LW_jackn
04-04-2007, 08:13 PM
There is trouble in the forest and the creatures all have fled, for the Maples scream oppression and the oaks just shake their heads. :)

Ah darn, you beat me to it...
:D

There was a Bumper Sticker I saw once in CA that said: "Earth first! We'll deforest the rest of the planets later..."

;)

Oaks... phht!

Conifers are more noble trees than Oaks... Cedars are my friends too...

I'd rescue a Redwood any day...

When we bought or land and home here in TN 2 years ago, the first thing I was asked was what did I plant to do with the timber on a good half of it...

My asnwer was simple and appearantly of great relief to my neighbor...

"Let it grow..."

;)

LW_jackn
04-04-2007, 08:23 PM
Vorlon or Shadow?

How about Green or Purple?

:p

colkai
04-05-2007, 02:01 AM
When we bought or land and home here in TN 2 years ago, the first thing I was asked was what did I plant to do with the timber on a good half of it...
Abso-fraggin-lutely.
Ok, OT I know but...
I have always swore, if I ever won the lottery, I'd put a couple of hundred thousand to one side simply for forestation of the land I'd buy.

Then sit there, smugly, in my green oasis. :D

One reason we have a weekend retreat in Cannock Chase, trees and wildlife, picture of deer taken from our patio. :)

Oh, and WAY OT, but anyone in the UK who can get to Stafford over Easter Sun/Mon, if you want to support charity, come and visit Gentleshaw Wildlife Centre, love to meet any LWavers there! :)

(Sorry moderators, I jsut couldn't help the plug, what can I say, I'm giddy :) ).

T-Light
04-05-2007, 10:42 AM
For some reason Colin, I've always thought you were based just south of Cumbria. Saw your post and thought that'd be a great day out :rolleyes:

Man, you're so far South you may as well be in Cornwall :D Oh well, shame, have a good'n :thumbsup:

Bog
04-05-2007, 12:19 PM
Where abouts are you, Brent?

T-Light
04-05-2007, 12:54 PM
Co Durham, further north than the "Beyond here there be monsters" line on the AA road maps.

theo
04-05-2007, 03:43 PM
I have always swore, if I ever won the lottery, I'd put a couple of hundred thousand to one side simply for forestation of the land I'd buy.

Then sit there, smugly, in my green oasis. :D



Hey Colkai, remember that proper husbandry of woodlands includes removing larger trees so the smaller can develop properly.

I own several acres of beautiful woodland and had over twenty massive oaks removed (and left another twenty) and the smaller trees in the adjacent areas have just literally taken off in terms of growth.

This isn't to say that I wasn't sad to see them go. It is just that eight years later I now have a new stage of growth in the woodlands that would not have been at the level it is without the additional sunnage (yeah, yeah, I know "sunnage" isn't a word).

Bog
04-05-2007, 03:44 PM
*looks from theo to Colin and back again*

So which of you are gonna have the three servomechs called Huey, Louie and Duey?

Exception
04-05-2007, 03:57 PM
So which of you are gonna have the three servomechs called Huey, Louie and Duey?

Me.
With deontological kittens.

Fraggin' them trees.