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Digital Hermit
04-26-2006, 08:41 AM
Not to sound like a "doomsayer" but this is an another example that, "Content is king..."

I do so wish that Lightwave would see the light and the marketability of usable and accessible content... (Not everyone can do modeling or rigging at the level of Poser/Daz.)

If LW would give full interoperability (native and displacement import support) as Cararra does with Poser/Daz, or if they would acquire “e-on” and have them head up their content...well you get my drift... I hope this is not the writing on the wall, so to speak!


(I seem to remember that QVC shocked everyone when they tried to acquire Paramount Movie Studios and people thought, "What that little retail television show has that much power?) Now, when I think about Daz this comes to mind… “What that little “Mom and Pop” Poser Model Spin Off has that much power?” - heh.

Wow.

Regards,

Digital Hermit

mattclary
04-26-2006, 11:39 AM
...well you get my drift...

Not really. Head up their "content"? What the h3ll does that even mean?

Verlon
04-26-2006, 12:36 PM
Probably suggesting that LW offer content for sale in the form of 'micro-transactions' in the same way that DAZ has done supporting Poser, and growing out of that.

Of course, DAZ was once (and I think still owned by) part of Zygote....so its not like 3 people running an office out of someone's garage.

There is apparently a lot of money to be made in selling $5-20 content for 3D programs (turbosquid, DAZ, Renderosity, Content Paradise, and about a bazillion others).

I do no know how well the same model holds true for Lightwave, but it might be worth a look. I mean LW users are more likely to be doing there own modelingg than the Vue/Poser crowd, but there is certainly a market for royalty free objects to fill out a scene. I just don't know how big a market it is.

Of course, Newtek could simply create a market here for us to sell objects (with them collecting a small percentage fee). I am inclined to believe it would make money (as long as the objects were in the $5-20 range mostly).

dpartridge
04-26-2006, 08:23 PM
NewTek, Inc., manufacturer of industry-leading video and 3D animation products, announced today the addition of 3D Arsenal™ and the 3D Arsenal suite of products to the NewTek line. 3D Arsenal is a collection of content, plug-ins and training material that simplify the creation of custom motion graphics and logo animations for video editors.


with easily customizable pre-created scenes,

something like this would be perfect for 3d artist that work in print. a content loaded with easily customizable pre-created environments ( indoors, outdoors and studios ).

this would be much like a photographer only we can sit right next to a creative and set up a scene instantly and then move things around and add custom built or purchased objects, and the creative or 3d artist doesn't have to leave the building. i find in a lot of situations there is not enough time and budget to create a scene from scratch in print work, and the creative doesn't care how the scene is created, only that it is done in time and they have enough time to control the final output.

Digital Hermit
04-26-2006, 08:51 PM
Thanx Verlon and dpartridge,

That’s along the lines I was thinking.

Newtek is a in the 3D business and we are seeing the success of that $15-20 even $50+ business model, that you mentioned, working. I would love to see "content" that would ideally function best in Lightwave (i.e. sub-patched models; already textured, rigged and with morphs) and have the "other" 3D applications having to cope with their own Lightwave import incompatibility issues - heh.

Sorry about the assumptive comments mattclary, did not mean to confuse anyone. :P

Regards,

Digital Hermit

Verlon
04-26-2006, 08:55 PM
Heh, in a way....3D aresenal is very much like that.

Hopefully, they'll include it as part of the upgrade :)

JamesCurtis
04-26-2006, 10:15 PM
Truth to tell, I actually get most of my content from DAZ3D's Free Model of the Week series they've been doing for several years now [and Zygote before them]. I do occasionally buy items from DAZ, but usually only when they have special sales [under $1 or $2] which they do a few times a year for a month or so. I still like to model myself and do when I need something very specific or that does not exist anywhere else, but sometimes it's more convenient and cost effective to buy.

Newtek sell models made by us? I'm not sure it'd work for them. They develop the software and hardware for the user, and there is a lot of competition doing this already. Granted, not as much is available for LW specifically, but plenty of stuff caan be converted to LW.

Yeah I do wish LW would take in Poser models directly [like Vue], but at least LW does take in OBJ's [which Poser can export to LW format].

Just my opinion mind you.

Kuzey
04-27-2006, 05:27 AM
The truth is more like this, daz seems to be in trouble with the bryce and daz studio and needs people who can actually program :D :D

They have had bryce for what seems to be 2 years plus and we still haven't seen a major upgrade let alone a minor one :screwy: :screwy:


Kuzey

Verlon
04-27-2006, 05:54 AM
well everyone needs more and better programmers. :)

I am not sure where DAZ is trying to go, but they don't seem to be short on financial resources, so they must be doing SOMETHING right.

Kuzey
04-27-2006, 06:41 AM
I am not sure where DAZ is trying to go, but they don't seem to be short on financial resources, so they must be doing SOMETHING right.

That "something right" is selling 3d content but that doesn't transfer into the making 3d programs market :help:

I hope Eovia keeps total control of the 3d programs and daz does what it does best...sell content, otherwise there is going to be a long wait for the next version of any program they make.

Kuzey

Digital Hermit
04-27-2006, 11:09 AM
I am not sure… but I think Eovia users are upset that they might be losing the French programmers who developed the "Hexagon 2" modeling software.

I guess that would be a concern, in light of what you said Kuzey, about Daz not even upgrading Bryce.

Not that H2 won't be completed, (The French team is contracted up to ver. 2.1) but what support comes up after that, is what I think is upsetting for Eovia H2 clients.

I agree with you, JamesCurtis, I wish there was direct import of Poser into LW also. :(

joeldberry
04-27-2006, 11:33 AM
I am not sure… but I think Eovia users are upset that they might be losing the French programmers who developed the "Hexagon 2" modeling software.

I guess that would be a concern, in light of what you said Kuzey, about Daz not even upgrading Bryce.

Not that H2 won't be completed, (The French team is contracted up to ver. 2.1) but what support comes up after that, is what I think is upsetting for Eovia H2 clients.

I agree with you, JamesCurtis, I wish there was direct import of Poser into LW also. :(

Nah, Daz (Eovia) will just buy Silo and their programmers when the 2.1 code runs out ;)

Then we will have over the next few months:

low-mid end: Lightwave vs. Modo vs. Carrara (Silo & Hexagon) vs. Strata vs. ElectricImage

mid-range: Cinema 4D vs. 3ds Max vs. Maya Complete vs. Softimage XSI Essentials)

high-end: Maya Unlimited vs. XSI Advanced

frantbk
04-27-2006, 12:13 PM
The truth is more like this, daz seems to be in trouble with the bryce and daz studio and needs people who can actually program :D :D

They have had bryce for what seems to be 2 years plus and we still haven't seen a major upgrade let alone a minor one :screwy: :screwy:
Kuzey
Daz stated last summer that the Mac verison of Bryce had a problem with the render, and that the render could not be enhanced on future Mac verisons of Bryce. daz stuido render is licensed the 3Ddelight render so I'm assuming that Daz is paying fees for a product that they are giving away. After a year an half of public beta testing I guess they couldn't convince anyone to buy daz stuido.

I'm assuming that they are trying to build a product line by buying technology not making technology products. I don't know about the rest of you but I've put Hexagon at the bottom of my list because of Daz.

joeldberry
04-27-2006, 12:34 PM
Daz stated last summer that the Mac verison of Bryce had a problem with the render, and that the render could not be enhanced on future Mac verisons of Bryce. daz stuido render is licensed the 3Ddelight render so I'm assuming that Daz is paying fees for a product that they are giving away. After a year an half of public beta testing I guess they couldn't convince anyone to buy daz stuido.

I'm assuming that they are trying to build a product line by buying technology not making technology products. I don't know about the rest of you but I've put Hexagon at the bottom of my list because of Daz.

I have to agree... Daz doesn't garner any major respect from me as far as a major player in the 3d application industry (perhaps only with 3d models, yes). I don't want to see Carrara and Hexagon (two very viable competitors in the industry) become glorified "world creators" optimized to work with Daz's models.

I don't want to see most of the programming efforts of future updates become more concerned with making the "models" integrate better into Carrara and Hexagon, versus updating truly needed features like character animation, surfacing, particles, hair and fur, etc., which are becoming must haves in the 3D industry.

Personally the whole "Daz aquires Eovia" made my heart sink when I heard it.

I will probably be ditching Carrara Pro now... I will keep Hexagon (for a while) because it does have some pretty cool features and is a fast modeler. But frankly, the thing I LEAST use any 3D application for is creating "3D worlds" with ready-made, buy-as-you-go characters, and that seems to be what Daz is all about... That just seems boring: buy our characters cheap, buy clothes and props for them, buy trees, plop it all on a landscape and render and guess what? You're an artist!

What??? That makes you an artist? No, it makes you able to purchase content and plop them in a scene and render. I prefer to spend hours crafting models and learning, creating -- to me, that's the fun part of art: learning, discovering, creating.

So, having said this, I definitely don't want to see Newtek and Lightwave become another Eovia/Daz3D with "content as king" focus... Rather, we need for them to keep providing us with professional tools for compositing, modeling and animation tools...

For those who aren't artists, or those who need to simply meet customer demans ("Can you put a man and a woman there by the car that you've rendered?") and who don't want want to or enjoy putting the time and effort into creating, yes, Daz and Poser may be for you, but that doesn't mean that Newtek needs to focus on going down that route...

Just my opinion, though...

Verlon
04-27-2006, 01:02 PM
What??? That makes you an artist? No, it makes you able to purchase content and plop them in a scene and render. I prefer to spend hours crafting models and learning, creating -- to me, that's the fun part of art: learning, discovering, creating.


Well, it makes you more of an artist than a photograper....all those guys do is find a pile of 4D objects already loaded into a scene and maybe tweak the lighting before rendering into a 2D image....

Oh wait, photographers ARE artists.

That statement is like the "3D animators aren't really artists because the computer does all the work."

Now I would say that someone who gos from adding points to final render is doing MORE (and probably better, but that is not a given) than someone who uses models that are made for them, not everyone has the time to model everything.

If I need a few people to put in my Arch-Viz scene to make it look like my (or my client's) vision, What is wrong with adding some DAZ content? Does it take away ffrom the work I DID do? No.

I see on many games and movies where the modelers get separate credit and are different people than the animators. How is that different? Those people have separate credit and are different than the director and the writer. Isn't that the same thing?

Yes, putting Vikki from DAZ in a dress from Renderosity using a lighting Rig from Content paradise in a house from PoserPros isn't the hard work of modeling it all yourself, I grant.

How is it different than paying Milla Jovovich to wear a dress from Gucci using a lighting rig you learned in school in a house you rented for a photoshoot? (other than the obvious benefit of getting to hang out with Milla and the obvious detriment of it costing a LOT more money)?

joeldberry
04-27-2006, 01:30 PM
What??? That makes you an artist? No, it makes you able to purchase content and plop them in a scene and render. I prefer to spend hours crafting models and learning, creating -- to me, that's the fun part of art: learning, discovering, creating.


Well, it makes you more of an artist than a photograper....all those guys do is find a pile of 4D objects already loaded into a scene and maybe tweak the lighting before rendering into a 2D image....

Oh wait, photographers ARE artists.

That statement is like the "3D animators aren't really artists because the computer does all the work."

Now I would say that someone who gos from adding points to final render is doing MORE (and probably better, but that is not a given) than someone who uses models that are made for them, not everyone has the time to model everything.

If I need a few people to put in my Arch-Viz scene to make it look like my (or my client's) vision, What is wrong with adding some DAZ content? Does it take away ffrom the work I DID do? No.

I see on many games and movies where the modelers get separate credit and are different people than the animators. How is that different? Those people have separate credit and are different than the director and the writer. Isn't that the same thing?

Yes, putting Vikki from DAZ in a dress from Renderosity using a lighting Rig from Content paradise in a house from PoserPros isn't the hard work of modeling it all yourself, I grant.

How is it different than paying Milla Jovovich to wear a dress from Gucci using a lighting rig you learned in school in a house you rented for a photoshoot? (other than the obvious benefit of getting to hang out with Milla and the obvious detriment of it costing a LOT more money)?

Hey, now -- I never said Photographers were artists! :D

Verlon
04-27-2006, 01:36 PM
If you can convince people to actually PAY you to stand around taking pictures of supermodels, you must be an artisit of some kind. You sure aren't an engineer. :D

cresshead
04-27-2006, 01:48 PM
well newtek has already taken a step as a content creator lib with 3d arsenal...go see o the newtek tv cast at now running currently...

http://www.newtek.com/shows/nab/2006/

thing is their idea of it is for you to customise the 3d lib of scenes to 'make it your own'...


neato!:lwicon:

joeldberry
04-27-2006, 02:10 PM
Customizable content (isn't it all?) I can understand -- especially if it's created to be customized... What I am really not looking forward to is a series of renders ending up in print, on the web, or heaven forbid in a motion picture where I can say, "Yep. Victoria 3. Such and such clothing module. Such and such prop. Environment was generated in Bryce using such and such setting." My concern is losing the meaning of artful expression in art itself simply because people "can" now plop people, models, trees, etc. down on a plane and call it their own.

Take Final Fantasy: The Spirits Within. I didn't see Michael or Victoria or any Daz props, or Lightwave content, in that one, and knowing that the creators put their lives into it for 3 years made it that much more impressive -- it was indeed a work of art.

Now, granted, using Vue or something to generate a landscape that would otherwise take days to create by hand, yes I can understand. Generators are tools. And software is just a tool. Tools used in a craft. There are master artists (craftsmen) at 3D who use these tools. But plopping models in a scene and saying "I created that scene"? That makes a person an artist? It's hard for me to convince myself, but I guess, and will admit, there is a happy medium, and I will give content users the benefit of the doubt here, and say, I support the usage of content, but all in all I do not wish for Newtek to become Daz. I think it would ruin them, personally.

I think Lightwave is a powerful vehicle for artists to create. I especially like to see inventive ways of using old ideas in a new manner. I like the way, for example, Pixar has created a legacy (like Disney) for 3-D animation, and they didn't use any Daz 3D models. Sure, they have a huge staff of artists and animators and technical directors and marketers, et. al., but it just goes to show you how 3D can be a vehicle for fantastic original art.

I am just tired of seeing "art" on the web that is simply made up of models thrown together in a scene with 3-point lighting and people calling it "art." To me, it isn't. And yes, it's my opinion. I know there are others who will disagree. Renderosity (the playground of model ploppers) just seems silly to me...

And I don't think saying that animators aren't artists because the computer did all the work compares to my earlier statement at all. Everyone knows what a pain in the butt it is to (and what time and effort and talent it takes to) set up an animation to look "just right" -- and what did the computer do? Uh, it just rendered what the artist told it to. When someone doesn't spend any time creating a model and then simply pops it into a scene -- that's a far stretch from the animator's job.

I have used models before, and I hated it because, to me, it did take away from the rest of the artwork that I actually did because I knew that I didn't create that model, and here I was presenting it... Call me a perfectionist...

Verlon
04-27-2006, 02:25 PM
Well the is certainly a happy medium (and some unhappy extremes) to the points of view.

Yes, plopping a few things down in poser does not make you an artist, but a carefully crafted scene/animation should certainly qualify more than....say my avatar.

That was created by me in Lightwave.....in about 15 minutes. It is the 3D equivalent of a one-liner. Does it make me an artist just because I built it all in Lightwave? ppfft.

And by all means, give the craftsmen the credit they are due. :)

I wouldn't want Newtek to become DAZ either, but I was saying that they might benefit from selling content, instruction, and plugins for their products.

They might not see it as worth the effort. Its not my company. I just live nearby.

Kuzey
04-27-2006, 02:35 PM
Take Final Fantasy: The Spirits Within. I didn't see Michael or Victoria or any Daz props, or Lightwave content, in that one, and knowing that the creators put their lives into it for 3 years made it that much more impressive -- it was indeed a work of art.
/QUOTE]

I do remember seeing poser characters in max steel :hey:

but yes, I do hope they keep the French coders and Hexagon has gone off my wish list.

[QUOTE]Originally Posted by frantbk
Daz stated last summer that the Mac verison of Bryce had a problem with the render, and that the render could not be enhanced on future Mac verisons of Bryce. daz stuido render is licensed the 3Ddelight render so I'm assuming that Daz is paying fees for a product that they are giving away.

So they hit a brick wall on the Mac side....mmmmm, that's interesting since it was first made on the Mac :stumped:

Funny how things turn out :D

But Bryce is pretty much dead in my view, they need to come up with something that will blow people away and fast. One of the first requests I made when daz got Bryce was for it to be more Lightwave friendly and look at vue, it's moving in that very direction :thumbsdow

Anyway, it's looking like Metacreations all over again :screwy:


Kuzey

dpartridge
04-27-2006, 06:05 PM
there seems to be two discussions here. one is the definition of a artist and the other is what newtek can do to help get the job done.

when working for a living as a commercial artist the most important thing is to get the job done on time and within a budget. the client does not care about the definition of a artist or wether the objects in the scene are purchased or built from scratch.

i think the definition of artist being someone who builds everything from scratch is confused with a craftsman. a true artist is judged by the final output. andy warhol for example very rarely worked on producing any work himself. he had a factory of people to produce the WORK for him. damien hirst created pieces of art using animals in formaldehyde, do you think he should be discredited as a artist because he didn't make the animals ?

another example would be if i created a piece of art only using a sphere, cone and cube, would it be discounted as a piece of art if i used the primitive tools in lightwave rather than building the primitives from scratch ?

prospector
04-28-2006, 12:03 AM
Hexagon 2

1.99........icons
1.99........icons

hard to decide if an icony program is worth 1.99

icons....1.99

HMMMM

frantbk
04-28-2006, 06:30 AM
[QUOTE=joeldberry]
but yes, I do hope they keep the French coders and Hexagon has gone off my wish list.

So they hit a brick wall on the Mac side....mmmmm, that's interesting since it was first made on the Mac :stumped:

But Bryce is pretty much dead in my view, they need to come up with something that will blow people away and fast. One of the first requests I made when daz got Bryce was for it to be more Lightwave friendly and look at vue, it's moving in that very direction :thumbsdow

Anyway, it's looking like Metacreations all over again :screwy:
Kuzey

Daz doesn't have the French coders. Daz doesn't own any of the Evioa European division of Evioa. THe FAQ at Evioa also states that Daz doesn't own Ampai which is own by the Evioa Europe group. Fact is Daz currently is stating that they will only support Hexagon up to 2.1.

I agree Bryce is dead, but from the Daz statement the Mac verison of Bryce was dead when they bought it from Corel. What I picked up on was the fact that Corel took the Mac verison of Bryce off the market because of the render, but told the public that it was because of low customer interest. I'm of the impression that Corel did Daz dirty when they sold Bryce to Daz. That it wasn't until Daz started work on Bryce 5.5 that they found out that the Mac render would have to be built from new code. I'm also of the impression this might be one of the reasons Metacreation was quick to dump the whole product line and become a internet company.

joeldberry
04-28-2006, 07:43 AM
Hexagon 2

1.99........icons
1.99........icons

hard to decide if an icony program is worth 1.99

icons....1.99

HMMMM

First thing I did in Hexagon was start mapping keys. You even notice in the videos for the "manual" that they give you in PDF that the "demonstrator" in the videos is in fact using keystrokes, NOT icons. One of the things that bugs me the most about Hexagon is when you do an extrude or shift or something like that by clicking on the icons, the newly created geometry follows your mouse -- even up to the menus -- and you're like "WHOAH! What's going on!" until you can rein your mouse in and get the geometry back down to where you want it -- not an efficient way of working at all. Thus, the key mapping technique -- move the mouse a little, press a key, set the new geometry. This is one of the weakest areas of Hexagon in my opinion. I wonder if they will address it in v2.

Digital Hermit
04-28-2006, 10:33 AM
Yep - heh - lets bring up the age-old argument, of craftsman vs. artist... technical meticulousness vs. simple execution. Ok lets not.. but I will say this....The question, “Is it art if it only takes only a few minutes to create or would the result be validated if the artist took more time or added one more jot or tittle?”

Some people did not (or still do not) consider the “moderns” like, Matisse or Picasso, to be true to convention of art itself. The moderns approach was to “Do art for arts sake” instead of catering to the traditional thought that, “It was the duty of art to replicate nature.”

Ok, after reading about "modeling from scratch" that I have to add this... lol

Along the same lines that dpartrdge pointed out… collages or found art objects are not from the artists own creation but created by something or somebody else and arranged, by the artist, in a different context. So using other models that are not hand made does not make the result any less valid. One of the basics of art is communicating an idea. The models are just tools to help you achieve your vision. Heck, you could get so technical as to say the tools you are using to make your art (not of your own making BTW) are the true “artist”, because without them, you could not “manipulate” the medium you are working with be it chisel, paintbrush, or pixel…

<breath – asthma inhaler – breath>

Just my humble little opinion…. ;P

Regards,

D. Hermit.

steamthunk
04-28-2006, 12:09 PM
One of the basics of art is communicating an idea. The models are just tools to help you achieve your vision.

I would agree and say that this is one reason I'm (re)investing in learning 3D - to broaden my capabilities.

I like to draw, but I didn't care for many menial aspects of art such as perspective and coloring. Things that I can do, but don't care to do manually or repeatedly. Some things I might have never mastered "by hand" such as rendering (in color) lighting effects are 3D strengths. Am I cheating by switching mediums that cover my deficiencies? Or am I really being smart about it and taking my overall goal to a higher level by leveraging available tools?

Similar with content. If there's content that meets my artistic needs - even if I didn't make it myself - why should I not use it (assuming its allowed)? I submit that "art" is as much about presentation as anything. That's why my design studio prof once half-joked that its not finished until you frame it. The act of framing it somehow adds significance. I'm not suggesting that you can take some haphazardly composed grab bag of objects and frame it and call it art (at least not decent art as recognized by the majority), but its also art if you don't make everything yourself from base atoms/bits. Its your communication of the concept, theme, story that's important.

joeldberry
04-28-2006, 12:41 PM
I can see both sides, both points. I am willing to accept balance ;)

I just like to make stuff! :thumbsup:

Kuzey
04-28-2006, 02:16 PM
Daz doesn't have the French coders. Daz doesn't own any of the Evioa European division of Evioa. THe FAQ at Evioa also states that Daz doesn't own Ampai which is own by the Evioa Europe group. Fact is Daz currently is stating that they will only support Hexagon up to 2.1.

I agree Bryce is dead, but from the Daz statement the Mac verison of Bryce was dead when they bought it from Corel. What I picked up on was the fact that Corel took the Mac verison of Bryce off the market because of the render, but told the public that it was because of low customer interest. I'm of the impression that Corel did Daz dirty when they sold Bryce to Daz. That it wasn't until Daz started work on Bryce 5.5 that they found out that the Mac render would have to be built from new code. I'm also of the impression this might be one of the reasons Metacreation was quick to dump the whole product line and become a internet company.


That is very bad news about the coders, so that would mean daz is selling hex for $2 now, but in a few months with sell it to another company for a huge profit....since it will probably have the largest user base on the planet. :tsktsk: :tsktsk:

As for Bryce, daz should have known it was old when they got it and should have done a complete rewrite. The fact they tried to push the existing code to do what it couldn't do is an example why a content provider doesn't make a great program developer. :bangwall:

I can see the time when daz dumps all it's programs and goes back to being daz, get your free poser model this week....kinda thing.

Kuzey

starbase1
04-28-2006, 02:55 PM
Well, I've bought my share of stuff from Daz...And 1.99 for hexagon, and Daz studio for free you can see their business model pretty clearly!

My personal view is that they do good base models, but it's almost all a bit safe and mundane. I prefer to get stuff from Renderosity these days - the average standard is WAY lower, but there are some brilliant whacky gems lurking in there.

This would be a nuts business model for Newtek though!

However it sure would make a lot of sense to be able to get at that great cheap content without having to jump through hoops, add plugins, buy extra tools, and twiddle with the results to make them render right...

Add some more popular formats to those supported in Modeller, and people would buy it as a converter, let alone as an all round package...

cresshead
04-28-2006, 05:00 PM
wow $1.99 for hexagon...you'll need a minimum of 1 month's platinum subs though....$29.99 or a year @ $99


still is cheap....but what of hexagon's future?


maya/mo builder gone to autodesk...
sketchup gone to google....
cararra/hexagon to daz


what next!

cresshead
04-28-2006, 05:07 PM
Nah, Daz (Eovia) will just buy Silo and their programmers when the 2.1 code runs out ;)

Then we will have over the next few months:

low-mid end: Lightwave vs. Modo vs. Carrara (Silo & Hexagon) vs. Strata vs. ElectricImage

mid-range: Cinema 4D vs. 3ds Max vs. Maya Complete vs. Softimage XSI Essentials)

high-end: Maya Unlimited vs. XSI Advanced


don't really aggree with your listings!
3dsmax is as 'high end' as you can get for game development for instance..

lightwave IS high end for tv fx....

cinema4d is NOWHERE in the main industry segments...film/tv/game

xsi is making 'some' inroads into game and film but it's NOT dominant anywhere as yet

and where's hooudini in your lists?....THAT's VERY high end.

joeldberry
04-28-2006, 06:23 PM
don't really aggree with your listings!
3dsmax is as 'high end' as you can get for game development for instance..

lightwave IS high end for tv fx....

cinema4d is NOWHERE in the main industry segments...film/tv/game

xsi is making 'some' inroads into game and film but it's NOT dominant anywhere as yet

and where's hooudini in your lists?....THAT's VERY high end.

Hey, just like Jimmy the Greek, I stand by my predictions :D

Autodesk just got a'hold of Maya... you really think Maya isn't going to take top drawer in their offerings? I am telling you: 3ds Max is going middle-ground... they aren't stupid...

And considering the new, lower cost, yes, I would put Lightwave into the low-mid category. I am not talking about quality of product or rendering or even the popularity of it (I own 3 licenses of Lightwave, I cut my 3D teeth on Lightwave, I like Lightwave), I am talking about price/market... and for that, now that Lightwave is $800, it will be considered more afforable to many, but it will also (unfortunately, because of "perceived customer value") be looked at as low-to-mid-range as long as people pay $6,000 for Maya and XSI and $800 for Lightwave. Especially when 3ds max and Cinema 4D hover right around the $3,000 to $3,500 range. Trust me. I know it's a very capable rendering package, but there is an awful lot of "It's ONLY $800? Must not be as good as the $3,000 or $6,000 packages!" perceptions out there, particularly from new buyers...

And have you seen what's coming out of Maxon lately? Perhaps Cinema 4D isn't in "American" main industry segments, but then, there is the rest of the world, you know, and the rest of the world does actually make video, film and other products with software from other countries... you know... like Cinema 4D, from Maxon, in Germany? :) Being from the U.K., I would imagine you might see more C4D usage over there, but I could be wrong...

Houdini? Ah, how many people actually get around to being able to put their hands on that? 5? 6? ;) Seriously, it's professional, true, but you don't see a lot of "mainstream" (i.e., small studios, production houses) houdini usage... even though they may sacrifice not eating for weeks to afford Maya Unlimited :D

Modo's the one to watch...

cresshead
04-29-2006, 08:51 AM
i couldn't disagree more!:hey:

cinema 4d is NOWHERE..
not in edu
not in games
not in tv
not in print
not in film

not in the top 4 of ANY of those market segments...anywhere on this planet.

modo is too late...it's just a modeler and a nice [when it ships..still not out as yet] stills/turntable renderer...geez hexagon whips it's butt and is $1.99 currently and IS out now...modo one to watch?...for how long..3 yrs?:D

and as for saying xsi is hi end...geez it's lower than lightwave's pricepoint!...how do you reckon that..by facerobot's $96,000 app?
most people percieve xsi as a cheap 3d app..a way into 3d with some good tools...most people stay with fundamentals and don't jump to advanced...esp now that they have a fur shader for $50 in fundamentlas

max has NEVER changed it's price...everyone else jumped around while the largest legit installed 3d app on the planet cruised by...and no it's not titanic!:D

as for cheap being a ruler for not high end...err...z brush?
that's as high end as you can get and thats VERY cheap

:lwicon:

cresshead
04-29-2006, 11:43 AM
Opps! Wrong Thread!

cresshead
04-29-2006, 11:46 AM
now installed it...:thumbsup:

joeldberry
04-29-2006, 12:55 PM
now installed it...:thumbsup:

I am just yanking your chain, Cresshead -- nobody has any idea what's going to happen in this market -- the last few years have proven that -- I mean, who ever expected Daz to buy Eovia, or Autodesk to buy Maya? :stumped:

I do think Cinema 4D has a poweful product, though, from what I have used (in demo) and seen rendered... it remains to be seen how widespread its usage can become... And I agree, Lightwave is an awesome product that can go head to head with high-end products... Indeed, it's a great time to be able to experience all this cool technology in 3D, isn't it?

So, what do you think of Hex2? Any good? I have Hex1, and the $1.99 (plus $30) seems a lot better than $99 to upgrade! What's your opinion?

jdb

cresshead
04-29-2006, 01:29 PM
just had 40 mins ..dived in ...no idea how it works generally....!

loaded a model and got displacement painting up n running..that looks to be a winner to me...well worth $2!...
i need to give it more time but the feeling is a good one..i managed to crash it once [loacked up] when i was 'playing with mapping buttons when i had symentry on...it got a bit unhappy!

one GREAT imporvement over the demo of 1.2 is they HAVE named the windows!..so i know i'm in left/right/front views etc..

i'd say upgrade if you can...spend that $32!:hey:


hey no probs with where the industry is going!...just all abit of fun eh!
...speaking of which i was ALL set to get a IMAC intel to run final cut express and also run max 8 on the xp side....but with speed edit from newtek....ive changed my mind!...going for a dell laptop possibly or a 'box' and will be editing back on a pc...that speed edit ROCKS!:newtek: :thumbsup: :agree:

cresshead
04-29-2006, 06:16 PM
okay first bash..and it's UGLY!

made from a ball primative in hex...
i can see that i'll be bringin in som of my models from lw into hexagon for a quick paint job!

http://www.fotothing.com/photos/2ce/2ced1b02262f38fc3b99289cfffd853e_9e9.jpg


was fun..no crashes...:thumbsup:

cresshead
04-29-2006, 06:29 PM
another grab:thumbsup:

http://www.fotothing.com/photos/37a/37acd5905702d45bcb1b5cb402eecb35_6be.jpg

prospector
04-29-2006, 06:56 PM
yea, cool !!!

there is a LW tut in the tutorial under HELP

cresshead
04-29-2006, 07:00 PM
another grab but cutout in p shop..and drop shadow added...

http://www.fotothing.com/photos/a8f/a8f3e57bd19cd1415d9fd7f4081ac93a_7bc.jpg

need to see/find if you have masking with this....like that of z brush...and be able to 'pull' on the ends to make sharp teeth rather than grow them with a brush...

if anything this is making me look toward z brush as well!....:screwy:

cresshead
04-30-2006, 04:00 AM
hi well the mac installer finally downloded so just HAD to install it on my mac mini...

this time i had a quck play with the painting tools...
one a cube with cubic mapping

one thing to note is that the brush size will change onscren if you zoom in/out..which maybe a bug but i also think it's quite a good workflow as if you need a smaler brush just zoom in a bit!:hey:

anyway this screengrab will not win any awards but does show that it's capble of graffiti!

http://www.fotothing.com/photos/05f/05f0092adc195ff5223b57be07c68f88_25f.jpg

also just heard/read that there's some info for import export to lightwave in the pdf docs..will have a look at that after lunch!

cresshead
04-30-2006, 05:04 AM
the mac installer does'nt seem to contain any models, pdfs or videos....think i'll go get it again as the dl was interuppted and may have corrupted the insall package

joeldberry
04-30-2006, 12:08 PM
the mac installer does'nt seem to contain any models, pdfs or videos....think i'll go get it again as the dl was interuppted and may have corrupted the insall package

Yeah, try it again -- mine came in just fine -- like 350MB or so, but it had the videos (in English and French!) and documentation. It seems a bit slower than its predecessor, but so far I like the feature set. Pretty impressive. Will make a great companion to Lightwave...