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View Full Version : Take a new look at Symmetry



animotion
04-01-2006, 11:33 AM
I think Newtek should take a good look at symmetry in Zbrush, this is how symmetry should work.

Symmetry in LW is a little okward and at times, its like trying to model while looking in a mirror.

I have done binary coding in the past ans It seems like this should be something that is very doable.

Animotion.:)

WCameron
04-01-2006, 12:44 PM
i'm still suprised that since we first got it, we still dont atleast have a switchable symmetry. Symetry on Z, or Y or X. I'm hoping its in LW9...


- Will.

Sensei
04-01-2006, 03:02 PM
Symmetry in LW is a little okward and at times, its like trying to model while looking in a mirror.

That's because you have to place geometry in the right side and edit only this part.. Second mirrored leave untouched..



I have done binary coding in the past ans It seems like this should be something that is very doable.


Binary tree for what? LW SDK has nothing to support Symmetry.. Each tool has to check whether Symmetry is turned on or off and do everything manually, which in case of creating new points mean scanning the whole layer to find -x,y,z (where x,y,z is original point), for polygons this starts to be really complicated because you have to do such scanning for the all polygon points.. If tool does really complicated stuff it has sense to use binary tree, but *each* tool must be written this way independently!

In such limited by LW SDK environment it's impossible to make the all tools having Symmetry working in other axes than X right away, and this process would take a few LW releases to finish.. And in unsupported older 3rd party plug-ins - never..

Therefore half year ago TrueArt made plug-in to make virtual copy of geometry http://virtualmirror.trueart.pl
It works with EVERYTHING, current, older or never, does not matter.. You could make primitive Box and it'll be visible on the oposite X axis right away while you keep dragging handle points.. Watch video made by Proton..

animotion
04-04-2006, 11:25 PM
"That's because you have to place geometry in the right side and edit only this part.. Second mirrored leave untouched.."

I already know this, and the plugin you mentioned. All im saying is that it is possible (look at zbrush and other aps) and it would sure be nice.:)

Animotion

Sensei
04-05-2006, 02:02 AM
All im saying is that it is possible (look at zbrush and other aps) and it would sure be nice.:)

Possible in *new* application - of course..
But not possible in LightWave using current LW SDK, and with supporting the all tools written so far by either NewTek and 3rd party programmers..

parm
04-05-2006, 02:23 AM
Possible in *new* application - of course..
But not possible in LightWave using current LW SDK, and with supporting the all tools written so far by either NewTek and 3rd party programmers..

It's a terrible shame, if it's not possible to implement this in LW. Anyone who spends a lot of time modelling in the perspective viewport. Would appreciate it.
Having the points behave consistently, (intuitively), across both halves of your object, would only improve the LW experience. It would also validate the notion of modelling with Sub-D's, being like, using digital clay.
I'm totally with animotion on this, and hope we see it in a future release of Lightwave.

Sensei
04-05-2006, 03:31 AM
It's a terrible shame, if it's not possible to implement this in LW. Anyone who spends a lot of time modelling in the perspective viewport. Would appreciate it.
Having the points behave consistently, (intuitively), across both halves of your object, would only improve the LW experience. It would also validate the notion of modelling with Sub-D's, being like, using digital clay.
I'm totally with animotion on this, and hope we see it in a future release of Lightwave.

In LightWave it's possible go different route: instead of having Symmetry working with true geometry, having virtual geometry created by something like VirtualMirror (http://virtualmirror.trueart.pl).. With A VERY LITTLE NewTek help it would be possible to have this virtual part each polygon selectable like normal true polygon.. And you would quickly forget which part is virtual and which is true, but remember this just when you had to mirror for real..

Nemoid
04-05-2006, 06:36 AM
while virtual mirror is a hot plugin for sure, i'd like to have the simmetry mode fixed as well, because its built-in. also a good thing would be to support other axis, y, and z . difficult? i dunno. ZB has this behaviour buit in, plus smart simmetry to fix your model in case of problems, and it works. true that most other apps don't have simmetry mode : they rely rather on mirrored instances. it all could work with fixed points along center line, and no extra polygons created in the middle, as it happens for example in maya.

Sensei
04-05-2006, 06:46 AM
i'd like to have the simmetry mode fixed as well, because its built-in.

It's far from calling it "built-in".. Symmetry in LightWave is nothing else than switch on/off.. There is no any function in LW SDK that support it, every single tool has to do this manually after checking whether it's on or off..



also a good thing would be to support other axis, y, and z . difficult? i dunno.

Difficult in new application? Partially, but possible..
In the LightWave? Impossible.. Due to rewritting a hundered of built-in tools, and hundered of 3rd party tools, to get it working..

Nemoid
04-05-2006, 10:46 AM
so you're basically saying that it cannot be enhanced. i am sorry about it. however i don't have great problems into using it. sometimes it breaks, but ita not difficult to restore simmetry. but, actually i'd like it never break.

p.s. i am aslo wondering why simmetry has some probs also in Modo, which is a new application. i hope at least is a base and reworkable thing there.

Scott_Blinn
04-05-2006, 12:11 PM
Because its a new application made by the same people, who like making the same mistakes twice. Modos splines suck too and have a striking resemblance to LW's.:hey:

LOL on the splines comment, so true. :-)

animotion
04-05-2006, 01:22 PM
My mommy told me that anything is possible, just close your eyes and click your heels twice and say.................... :)

Sensei
04-06-2006, 01:18 AM
Modos splines suck too and have a striking resemblance to LW's.:hey:

When EasySpline was half baked, I saw the first time Modo video showing spline cage that is patched in the real time.. It looked great! Now I have the same (f.e. mixing Catmull-Rom curves with Bezier curves in the same spline patch) and even more (support to any length curves, crossing multiple other curves- this is what I've not seen on Modo video)..

And are you saying that it sucks? What is wrong with it.. ?

Sensei
04-06-2006, 11:55 AM
I don't know if the vid you watched is for modo 2, but as far as the demo I downloaded, the spline workflow was very similar to lightwaves... does not patch in real time like easy spline

You might be surprised in that case..

I don't remember original movie address, but I put it temporary to my server.. Don't watch it directly, Save As.. to disk first..
http://www2.trueart.pl/Graphics/Movies/Modo/SplineDeity.mov

It might looks awesome for the first sigh, especially because Modo guy is very very comminicative, and has *really* nice things to show.. ;)

The only differences between TrueArt's EasySpline (http://www.easyspline.com) and Modo 201 spline patching:

- EasySpline analizes layer after each permanent geometry change (add/remove point/poly).. When point position is changed spline patches are not evaluated, but splines that use these points are refrozen.. The same with spline patches that use these splines.. The rest remain the same..
- Modo analizes it once when the all edges are converted to spline patch edges, later user has to delete some curves to tell spline patch that patch must be re-evaluated to find new curves, or spline patch should be removed..

- Bezier in EasySpline is little differently implemented than in Modo (where spline using Bezier is crossing the all control-points).. EasySpline has single Bezier or B-Spline, Modo has Bezier or group of Bezier, but no B-Spline..

Proton sent NewTek management EasySpline videos and they were not interested in purchasing it for LightWave v9.. When they have the first time in history chance to be quicker and better than Modo.. With little LW SDK changes it's possible to have spline cages in the RENDERING STAGE, without freezing them to polygonal model.. Can you imagine model that has milion polygons in rendering and in spline cage just a few dozen (especially if you use Bezier and B-Spline) or in maximum a few hundered points?

cresshead
04-06-2006, 12:20 PM
i surpose it depends on where newtek's focus is for lw9...

maybe chracter based stuf is higher priority..though spline patching DOES relate to characters also...or maybe they have stuff like this in lw9 anyway??

Sensei
04-06-2006, 12:34 PM
I would love to have the features that were in that video.

Click pre-order link and you will play with it tonight :D


If easy spline can do what was in that video I will buy it...

Haven't you seen the latest videos, where I am dragging points and patches bend according to point move?
http://www2.trueart.pl/Products/Plug-Ins/EasySpline/Graphics/Movies/EasySpline_5.rar
http://www2.trueart.pl/Tutorials/LightWave/Fish/Files/TrueArt_Tutorial_EasySpline_Modeling_Texturing_Fis h.rar

These spline patches just appears.. I am not doing any Patch/Auto-Patch to show them.. If just splines in layer meet requirement - points are welded, they just appear.. From nowhere.. Because at this stage they're pure virtual! When I am fixing car, and deleting spline loop spline patches that used them disappeared, and after Unify Poly used on curves leaved from previous operation, appeared again.. Watch this video in slow motion :D

IT'S EXACTLY THE SAME.. Except this nice environment texture preview in OpenGL.. But that's not purpose of EasySpline..


When will easy spline be released?

Beta-testers are happy, so we're not in big hurry.. If LW9 will come first, EasySpline for sure won't be released at least two months, even though it will be finished.. That would kill sales..

moc
04-06-2006, 12:35 PM
"With little LW SDK changes it's possible to have spline cages in the RENDERING STAGE, without freezing them to polygonal model.."

wo!!......it seems like our LW hide up a valuable deposits....
But where is our Indian Jones?

Sensei
04-06-2006, 03:08 PM
No I haven't seen the vids. I will check them out now.

Take a look also at olders:
http://www2.trueart.pl/Products/Plug-Ins/EasySpline/Graphics/Movies/EasySpline_1.mov
http://www2.trueart.pl/Products/Plug-Ins/EasySpline/Graphics/Movies/EasySpline_2.mov
http://www2.trueart.pl/Products/Plug-Ins/EasySpline/Graphics/Movies/EasySpline_3.mov
http://www2.trueart.pl/Products/Plug-Ins/EasySpline/Graphics/Movies/EasySpline_4.mov