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Elmar Moelzer
03-31-2006, 08:39 AM
Hello everyone!

I would like to get some advice on a good monitor for use with LW.
I dont care whether it is an LCD or a CRT monitor, the price is only of secondary importance.
What is important to me is imagequality.
Right now I see the following issues with choosing the right monitor:
CRTs still offer the better color and contrast representation than TFTs, at least from what I have seen, but when it comes to geometry TFTs seem to be much better than CRTs. All the CRTs we have here have problems with distortions, especially at the corners. E.g. a perfectly round ball created in Modeler appears squashed, or streched if you move it towards the corners of the monitor. For modeling, especially character modeling where the overall visual appearance of e.g. a face is more important than pure nummeric values, this is a big downer!
TFTs seem to be a lot better in this regard.
In addition to this the availability of High Quality CRT- monitors is much more limited these days, or so it seems (most manufacturers only have budget- quality CRTs in their programm).

TFTs still seem to have problems with viewing angles. The angle- values specified by the vendors dont make any sense in our applications since they only specify the angles at which you still see something. However the image can already change quite significantly at much lower angles. Now at what angle do I have to look at my screen to get the "real" image?
Also many TFTs only offer 6bit/channel of Colordepth and make up for the rest with dithering. These are usually those screens with the lowest reaction times. Of course the manufacturers rarely tell you about this "feature".
Again the quality of the colors suffers quite a lot from this.

So, now I seem to have the choice of either accepting the weaknesses of one of the types, or to work with two monitors (a CRT for the colors and a TFT for modeling), which would have a negative impact on office space here.

But maybe someone here can point me at a good monitor?
What are you guys using?
How is anyone here handling this?
I am sure that a lot of people here have videomonitors too...
So maybe people here want to share their experiences and make suggestions (or the oppisit if they had bad experiences with a certain model/brand).
Thanks in advance
CU
Elmar

Lightwolf
03-31-2006, 08:50 AM
Well, I'm working on a 19" CRT Flatscreen from Iiyama... and just got a 20" TFT Samsung. And honestly, even for colours I prefer the Samsung TFT. If you adjust your colours properly you shouldn't really have too many problems unless you proof for print. If you do video you ought to have a decent video monitor anyhow.
I still see some tearing on the TFT, quite pronounced in cases, but it is the older version with slower refresh speed.
If I had the money I'd go for the 24" Dell at the moment. And no CRT to work on, except for a video monitor to check colours and fields (in which case you'd want a CRT anyhow).

Cheers,
Mike

Elmar Moelzer
03-31-2006, 09:06 AM
Yeah, the Dell TFTs seem to be quite good, they also have true 8 bit/channel colors. They are said to be a bit slow though.
Not sure how much this is visible in daily animationwork though.
Videomonitors are nice, but to pricy and usually to big to have one for every workstation here.
CU
Elmar

lesford
03-31-2006, 09:46 AM
I have a 24" Hi Def Dell (1920x1200). It is extremely bright and clear, much cheaper than the Apple screens, has a full complement of card readers and ports and front panel switchable inputs. I use it along with a Wacom Cintiq 21UX.

I also have a top of the line 21" Sony CRT which hasn't been turned on for a year.

CRTs cannot compete in terms of bang for buck. The colour factor is over-rated as an excuse for using glass as there are many ways to adjust colour both in software and hardware. The off-angle viewing argument against using LCDs starts to become less of an issue as the screens get larger. It is only really ever an issue for those standing behind you looking over your shoulder. For the actual artist-operator the viewing angle is plenty wide.

Les

Scott_Blinn
03-31-2006, 09:52 AM
I also have (and love) a Dell 24" monitor. I kept one of my two 19" samsung CRT s for a secondary monitor so that I could use ir for it color reference. The Dell looks so much beter color wise- I was suprised! Better color range and contrast.

It's a GREAT monitor.

Lew
03-31-2006, 10:11 AM
Using a Samsung Syncmaster 204t
Best thing I've bought in a long time.

iconoclasty
03-31-2006, 10:12 AM
I'd have to vote for Dell too. Although some of their smaller monitors have some issues, if you get one of their 20" models or larger you should be sitting pretty. Although I'd recomend dual 20s for Lightwave.

steamthunk
03-31-2006, 11:51 AM
Using a Samsung Syncmaster 204t
Best thing I've bought in a long time.

I agree! :thumbsup: Considering getting a second.

jeremyhardin
03-31-2006, 12:21 PM
Here's some discussion about Dell vs. Cinema Display (some interesting takes in there):
http://www.newtek.com/forums/showthread.php?goto=newpost&t=48665

cagey5
03-31-2006, 12:42 PM
Another thumbs up for the Dell 24" here. Best monitor I've ever had by far.

RedBull
03-31-2006, 02:14 PM
I recently went from CRT to LCD....

Colour swatches are now more bland, and there is a noticable colour drop off..
In my digital photo's, there's a more noticable noise/pixelation thing happening on the LCD....

So despite the people claiming better color on the LCD's than CRTs...
I doubt it.... As i can defiantely notice the difference with my eye..

But overall i wouldn't go back to big bulky, heavy old CRT.....
The flicker and ease on my eyes on the LCD's is a big plus...
Viewing angle is not a problem.

Dell's are okay, If you are looking at large monitors.....
Acer have a much cheaper/better new 24" Widescreen LCD...
It's using new generation panels, and has a 6ms gtg time.....
Which crap all over the Dell and Apples.

I would still use a CRT if colour/proofing/print were your major work areas...
For television/DVD output, you should have broadcast monitor for checking outputs/colours etc.....

But for modeling/rendering general 3D/2D LCD's are quite usable....

A colour proofing person i know wrote this yesterday, on the same subject.

"If you're serious about colour accuracy, you can't go past Eizo. You
will need a seriously fat wallet tho.
I've recently switched from a $30,000 Barco Mega Calibrator (CRT) to a
$3K 21" Eizo ColorEdge CG21 (LCD), and will never go back to CRT."

Nicolas Jordan
03-31-2006, 02:43 PM
I prefer LCD monitors because they seem to be a bit easier on the eyes. I'm not really sure why, but I am thinking it is the way they are made and the different display technology that is used. I own an LG Flatron L1930B and will never go back to CRT after getting used to an LCD display. I have been converted :)

Beaker
03-31-2006, 02:45 PM
I'm using a pair of Samsung 930B Syncmaster 19" TFT-LCD monitors. I'm sure there are better out there, but then most of the work I do is used in lower resolution applications that don't require color matching or high def. I've been really please with their performance so far. Much better than the CRTs I used to have.

Lamont
03-31-2006, 11:49 PM
I got a 19" CRT Mitsubishi flat-screen monitor if you want to pick it up ;)

I just got the Dell 20" wide screen, it looks great.

colkai
04-01-2006, 02:12 AM
I prefer LCD monitors because they seem to be a bit easier on the eyes.
Likewise, I used to have a 17" CRT and now have an AvidAV 19" LCD - it's got far less glare / reflections, much easier on my eyes, crisper. I can't comment on colour accuracy as I have no experience with colour correct monitors. All I can say is I like them and nothing "pops out" as wrong to me.

Bytehawk
04-01-2006, 02:38 AM
I'll never go with a crt for day to day work. I love my eyes and would like to keep them at the present condition, especially since I tend to have long sessions. for colour accuracy I can agree I tend to make things darker than on a crt because the lcd display is crisper and brighter. That's easily corrected by having a video monitor, or in my case a hard copy on my colour accurate printer.

IMHO colour is never correct, whenever you switch to another medium there'll be some difference.

badllarma
04-01-2006, 08:04 AM
Well I've just picked up an old llyama Vison Master Pro 510 22" flat screen CRT and I love it I do not have the room for two so one big one does the job.

With regards to comments on eyes I've just bought myself a new desk top lamp that gives out proper white light and the difference is unbelieveable no longer feeling tired all the time the pure white light being given out is magic also has a guard on it so you can angle it away from directly reflecting on the monitor screen. 20.00 from B&Q and worth it's weight in gold.

I use CRT's and TFT at work and for the work we do (photomasks) we always get a better image of the CRT's from the electron microscopes in the tools. When your working on 90nm plates you really do need to see everything :)

Stewdent101
04-01-2006, 08:15 AM
About a month ago i purchased a formac gallery 20.1 TFT Monitor and with a screen resolution of 1600*1200 at approx 350 from ebuyer i cannot fault it

BazC
04-12-2006, 01:27 PM
Well, I'm working on a 19" CRT Flatscreen from Iiyama... and just got a 20" TFT Samsung. And honestly, even for colours I prefer the Samsung TFT. If you adjust your colours properly you shouldn't really have too many problems unless you proof for print. If you do video you ought to have a decent video monitor anyhow.
I still see some tearing on the TFT, quite pronounced in cases, but it is the older version with slower refresh speed.
If I had the money I'd go for the 24" Dell at the moment. And no CRT to work on, except for a video monitor to check colours and fields (in which case you'd want a CRT anyhow).

Cheers,
Mike

Which Samsung did you get, it wasn't the 204b by any chance? I'm thinking about getting a 19-20" LCD and am leaning towards Samsung but I'm not sure which model to get! - Thanks for any help! - Baz

Lightwolf
04-12-2006, 01:47 PM
Which Samsung did you get, it wasn't the 204b by any chance?
I got the 204Ts, which is the slightly older one. It doesn't have the high refresh speeds of the newer ones, but I'm otherwise extremely happy with it.
The colours are great and I have no issues with viewing it at angles at all...

Cheers,
Mike

M.A.S.
04-12-2006, 07:41 PM
I have 6 Dell 2405s and I'm quite happy with them. I did have to exchange 1 because its color didn't track with the others, (not critical, it just annoyed me) but otherwise minimal tweaking required. Most of what I do is going to be seen on somebody elses monitor, so I'm at the mercy of their gear anyway.

For print, I run tests on a dye-sub with a pantone swatch on the side. From that, I'm good to go.


Michael

BazC
04-13-2006, 01:48 AM
I got the 204Ts, which is the slightly older one. It doesn't have the high refresh speeds of the newer ones, but I'm otherwise extremely happy with it.
The colours are great and I have no issues with viewing it at angles at all...

Cheers,
Mike

Thanks for the info Lightwolf! They sound like a good choice for me too! :D

Nemoid
04-13-2006, 03:12 AM
I am considerning going with a Samsung 204t as well ! we have 2 of them in the office, and they're very good.

Other than that, i've heard great things about Apple '20 cinema display.
but not eveyone agreeds. someone says bad things about these Apple monitors.

I think that, a part for print work , good LCD can be great for CG, now. also, they're more easy on the eye.

Aquilon
08-23-2006, 04:30 AM
I've worked for years on a LG Flatron 19" CRT and although colors aren't as correct as I wanted them I was quiet pleased with it. But now I think I'll change to a Eizo L768 LCD monitor, good color-representation, very good contrast and no ghosting (according to reviews read) and for a very decent price (450 euro), looks like a bargain to me

theo
08-23-2006, 07:38 PM
I am looking at the best monitors I have ever owned right now- dual Viewsonic VP2000's.

Just a superb set of monitors. I have not even one complaint- plus for gaming the refresh rate is fantastic, the best I have ever seen for hardcore FPSing.

Along with a ton of heavy graphics production use I use these puppies for extremely pricey color-critical print projects and almost never have color issues.

Lamont
08-23-2006, 09:37 PM
I tossed the 20.1" LCD from Dell and got the 2407 LCD. 24 inches of badass. I haven't had any issues and it doesn't retain images like the 20.1" monitor I had.

Earl
08-23-2006, 10:29 PM
I was one of those guys who did not like the color/contrast quality of LCDs. And up until about three weeks ago, I wasn't sold on an LCD. However, I am VERY impressed with the 21" widescreen Samsung syncmaster. The color is superb, and there is ample control to tweak the color (but honestly out of the box it was almost perfect). I had to tweak the contrast setting a little, but after that I found it to match both my professional CRT at work and my old CRT at home (which I have been very happy with for many years).

This widescreen Samsung is definately a great monitor for both 3D and graphic design, and from now on I'll be looking at Samsung before others. Oh, and the refresh rate is great. I've used it for video editing and gaming.

bryphi7
08-23-2006, 10:39 PM
I was one of those guys who did not like the color/contrast quality of LCDs. And up until about three weeks ago, I wasn't sold on an LCD. However, I am VERY impressed with the 21" widescreen Samsung syncmaster. The color is superb, and there is ample control to tweak the color (but honestly out of the box it was almost perfect). I had to tweak the contrast setting a little, but after that I found it to match both my professional CRT at work and my old CRT at home (which I have been very happy with for many years).

This widescreen Samsung is definately a great monitor for both 3D and graphic design, and from now on I'll be looking at Samsung before others. Oh, and the refresh rate is great. I've used it for video editing and gaming.

get it!! you will love it... That's what I got. Haven't had any problems yet, and the picture is superb...

Captain Obvious
08-23-2006, 10:49 PM
Regardless of whether you go CRT or TFT, just remember: CALIBRATE YOUR DISPLAY!

Wickster
08-24-2006, 12:12 AM
Ok, I got a somewhat related question. I'm running a dual LCD display on my pc right now.

Acer Ferrari F20 - 20" wide @ 1680X1050 and a generic 17" @ 1280X1024.
My Graphics card is an nVidia 6200 with 256MB

i have my main LW window at the 20" and all the palettes on the 17.

sometimes LW takes awhile to refresh especially in Layout, is it because my graphics card is trying accelearate both monitors and probably slowing it down? should i get a better card instead? i'm runiing on an AGP board so i can't really do SLI.

marble_sheep
08-24-2006, 12:55 AM
I just wanted to throw this in here as another point to consider when choosing an LCD... prolly more info than you'll ever want to know, but it came up for me recently and I thought I'd share it :)

The studio I work at uses Dell 2405's almost exclusively. Several people have complained about bad viewing angles and poor color calibration. Upon doing some internet digging, I learned that there are a couple main types of LCD screen technologies in use these days... S-PVA/MVA and S-IPS being the most relevant to this topic.

There are many factors besides PVA-vs-IPS which go into the image quality an LCD is capable of producing... such as the backlight, etc. In the most high-end of LCD monitors, (i.e. Eizo's and LaCie's) the differences between PVA and IPS are negligible, due to the high quality of those other factors (LED backlighting being a big one.) However, for the monitors most of us will be buying, one of the biggest determining factors in image quality is whether the monitor is S-PVA or S-IPS.

Basically, PVA-based screens in general have higher brightness and contrast ratios, but S-IPS monitors in general are closer to a CRT as far as "color accuracy" goes. Of course, no $800 LCD is going to be nearly as accurate as a $2,000 one... but S-IPS monitors will get you closer than a PVA monitor.

Dell 24" monitors are PVA or S-PVA (as are almost all 24" screens.) Most 23" monitors on the market, however, are using S-IPS screens.

So, when determining what kind of monitor you want to get, the two issues should be, 1. Is color accuracy more important to me than brightness? and 2. Am I willing to spend a couple hundred extra for an S-IPS screen (they are generally around $1000 while PVA screens are around $800.)

So anyway, back to those Dell's in our studio... I first noticed it when I would move my head just a couple inches off center and could see a gamma shift in the dark areas of the render I had up on screen. It's VERY subtle if you're not looking for it... but when you're scrutinizing a render for photorealism it becomes very noticeable and very annoying. The image pretty much has to be right in front of your face to see its "true" color. On a 24" wide screen, this means you are either constantly moving your head to line up with the image, or constantly dragging images to be directly in front of your eyes. Every artist I asked confirmed that they were noticing the same things on their monitors.

I'm not saying avoid the Dells... they are arguably the best PVA monitors available, and priced well too... for most people they should be just fine. But if you do a lot of color-critical work, or any compositing, design work, etc... I simply cannot recommend them.

The only reason I wanted to say all this is because most places on the internet make the assumption of, "Well of course you should buy the Dell, look how cheap it is! Look at the contrast ratio! If you buy anything else you're a loser!" And I'm just here to say that for SOME people, it WILL make a difference.

If you want to read up on this stuff, check out this (http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/other/display/lcd-guide.html) site. It's from '04 but the principles are still relevant.

And for a list of which monitor type the different brands use, go here (http://www.widescreengamingforum.com/wiki/index.php?title=Master_Monitors_List).

EDIT: Or here... (http://aryarya.net/wassyoi/lcdmemo.html)

iconoclasty
08-24-2006, 11:06 AM
Very informational marble_sheep. Thank you. Do you by chance know if the Dell 20" 4:3s are IPS or PVA? The 20s have always seemed to have great color and viewing angles, but I haven't played with the 24s yet to compare.

marble_sheep
08-24-2006, 11:53 AM
Very informational marble_sheep. Thank you. Do you by chance know if the Dell 20" 4:3s are IPS or PVA? The 20s have always seemed to have great color and viewing angles, but I haven't played with the 24s yet to compare.

Hi iconoclasty,

You're very welcome :D I was faced with researching this shadowy and complex topic, so I just wanted to help out anyone that might be in the same situation as me.

As far as I know, the 20" Dells do indeed use S-IPS. However... several sources I found indicated that Rev. 2 of the 2007's are actually S-PVA, probably for cost reasons. So, if you can get your hands on a 2005 or an early model 2007, that would be best :thumbsup:

mrcracked
08-24-2006, 12:35 PM
I have two 24'' dells side by side the 2405 and the 2407. After a bit of effort I was able to get them both calibrated correctly. They are both great monitors. I have had no problems with refresh rates or video. The brightness and contrast are excellent. I do think the 2405 is a better monitor although you cannot get it anymore. The 2407 is still great though. From my observations both Dells have better brightness, color, and contrast than their competitors and they are hundreds cheaper.

Mark

Andyjaggy
08-24-2006, 12:54 PM
I just bought a Samsung 204B for a killer price of $300. It is worth every penny. I switched from a CRT monitor and am sold on the LCD display, the colors and contrast may not be as great but everything is so much more clear, the wireframes in modeler pop now.

esper8
08-24-2006, 01:22 PM
I shelled out for a 30" Dell 3007WFP and am dead chuffed with it :)

Tzan
08-24-2006, 01:55 PM
Thanks for those links Marble! I just spent the last hour learning about LCDs :)
I've been staying away from buying one since I knew some were good and others bad but I couldnt tell the difference by looking at specs.

My only experience was a bottom of the line 19" Dell LCD in '04. Pile of junk.

Elmar Moelzer
08-24-2006, 04:57 PM
Hey Marble Sheep!
So what is the conclusion of all this?
I mean from the looks of it, a CRT is still the better allround monitor than any LCD- screen. Have there been any recent advances since that article was written?
I mean it is getting kinda hard to find some good CRTs anymore these days. Most of them are really cheap and small. No real professional CRT monitors, at least not here.
So do I need multiple monitors now, one for each purpose? Kinda ridiculous, if you ask me.
CU
Elmar

marble_sheep
08-24-2006, 05:57 PM
Hi Elmar,

You nailed it... CRT's really are superior as an all-around monitor regarding color accuracy, response time, and contrast levels. However, they are extremely hard to find these days. If you ask me, I'd say manufacturers killed CRT before LCD was really ready to compete. Even though that article is from '04, there haven't been many significant updates since then. I think until LED backlights become affordable, we (artists) are stuck with less-than-optimal solutions.... :grumpy:

Elmar Moelzer
08-24-2006, 06:09 PM
Yes, thats what I was affraid of and that was why I started the original thread back then.
CRTs were just about getting really good and affordable too...
CU
Elmar

marble_sheep
08-24-2006, 06:13 PM
Thanks for those links Marble! I just spent the last hour learning about LCDs :)

Kinda addictive once you get going, eh? ;) Hopefully those links will give you the info you need if you decide to get one! :thumbsup:

Haha, I just realized this is the most active I've been in a thread in a long time. Really, I'm not obsessed with LCD info or anything... :o