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hrgiger
03-29-2006, 10:09 AM
People seem to have very differing opinions on Newtek's fairly recent price drop for Lightwave. Some people think it's a good idea and others want Newtek to have more money to put into development. I'm just curious to see what you think a fair price for Lightwave would be....

Limbus
03-29-2006, 10:10 AM
I think a fair price would be around 1200$.

krimpr
03-29-2006, 10:52 AM
I agree with the philosophy that it's too low. I'd like to see the additional revenue spent on development and be the benificiary of the resulting features out of the box. I don't like that we have to get 3rd party apps for UV's or 3D paint. (or hair, or instancing, or... well; you get the idea). I'd rather the money be used to incorporate these types of features natively. $1200-$1500 would be fair in my mind. These features are becoming standard in apps considered far less highly regarded than Lightwave and by the time you get these features added Lightwave becomes, well... expensive. This is not a bash; I love Lightwave and have absolutely no desire (or need for that matter) to switch, but it is I believe a fair observation.

Gettarobox
03-29-2006, 10:57 AM
I think the current price is right. Charging anymore would take away from LW's ability to deliver high end goods to low budget studios. Which seems to be one of it's strongest points at the moment. I also think it is a shame when companies plan on delivering new versions on a yearly basis but want to keep the users paying for these new versions. That's why I don't want to use Maya anymore. I paid almost $3000 dollars for 4.5 and now they are up to 7 and I would have to pay about the same amount to get current again. YUCK!!!

jeremyhardin
03-29-2006, 11:09 AM
I didn't vote, because any of the above options would be fair. It's Newtek's game, and they make the rules. LW is great software, so they could charge what they want and be 'fair' (short of $95,000 ;) )
As I said in another thread, I don't think the current low price is the main factor in stigmatizing LW as a 'consumer' app. And Maya and XSI have lower priced versions, presumably to compete with LW.

hrgiger
03-29-2006, 11:42 AM
Please don't lash out at this post until after 9 is released, because like I have said before the proof is in the pudding...:(

Wait, you want to make statements like this BEFORE 9 is released and yet you don't want anyone to respond (or lash out) to these statements BEFORE 9 is released? Puh-leez...

I would just say that 9 is introducing a lot of new features that have been long overdue and perhaps some of them will need some refinement over the 9.x cycle. Plus if Newtek keeps up with it's more frequent update policy, perhaps you will find more to your liking during that time. Personally, I'm waiting to see what changes they make to character animation since Jay Roth has suggested that they want to get that one right. We'll just see what their definition of 'right' is.

Dodgy
03-29-2006, 12:12 PM
Well the standard version of Motion builder ($995) is being abandoned, so there's only the $4000 version going to be available. Certainly shows where Autodesk/Alias (now they're one company) are going...

And Bryphi, I'd really be careful what you say, since 9 is supposed to be under a NDA...

mattclary
03-29-2006, 12:13 PM
I agree with Jeremy on this. I just doin't think there is a good answer to this question.

Yeah, theoretically, I'd love Lightwave to be available at Wal-Mart for $49.99, but on the other hand I want the guys at NewTek to earn a living.

Setting the price point for something like this has to be really tough. It's a very small market with lots of competition... I don't envy NewTek.

sudac20
03-29-2006, 12:13 PM
The price is too low. I have to buy other applications to make up for all of Lightwave’s short comings. I model in Modo, texture in Z-brush and animate in Motionbuilder. Lets not forget about Vue 5 for envornments (I know it was free but you are still going to have to pay for upgrades). I would much rather give my $ to Newtek to improve their product (and improve they must if they want to stay in business).

Earl
03-29-2006, 12:30 PM
original post edited out
I personally would not trust the opinion of anyone willing to break a legal NDA contract. NewTek has a publicly posted feature list for v9.0, and they have stated what their intents are for the 9.x cycle. That is what I will base my opinion of version 9 on until the product is released. Once released, my opinion will be based on what they deliver - not on some hearsay of a stranger who disposes legal contracts like a used tissue.

On Topic: I think the price is just right. But I certainly wouldn't complain if it was raised a little. I want NewTek to eat well and add well-researched technology to LightWave.

Signal to Noise
03-29-2006, 12:44 PM
H-e-l-l*, I paid just over $2000 CDN a few years ago for LW 7. I thought it was worth it and still cheaper than other competing apps at that time. Now it's like $900 US and that's one great deal in my opinion. But like others have mentioned, it's entirely up to NT to make their price point for whatever reason it serves. Personally, if the app is good and does what I need out of it then I'll pay for it. It doesn't matter.



(*)-the dashes are there because the auto-censor picks up any reference to Hades as a curse word I guess. ;)

steamthunk
03-29-2006, 12:44 PM
Are we assuming (or know) that sales did not increase enough to offset the price drop?

Personally, I've looked at getting Lightwave many times throughout the years (since the Amiga days), but always the $1600 price point was just too intimidating to justify for personal use. By chance I happenned to come to the newtek site last fall and found the new price. There was no question that I had to get it at that point. :) So I'm fine with the price now.

Earl
03-29-2006, 01:39 PM
Are we assuming (or know) that sales did not increase enough to offset the price drop?

Personally, I've looked at getting Lightwave many times throughout the years (since the Amiga days), but always the $1600 price point was just too intimidating to justify for personal use. By chance I happenned to come to the newtek site last fall and found the new price. There was no question that I had to get it at that point. :) So I'm fine with the price now.
There are others I know who have expressed similar feelings. In fact when the price dropped there was suddenly talk at work about picking up another license. I've even thought of picking up an extra license at that price.

Zane Condren
03-29-2006, 01:43 PM
If you already own a copy of LightWave you can purchase additional seats for $495, these do not come with VUE5

Earl
03-29-2006, 01:45 PM
Hi Zane!

Is that a "permanent" price for additional seats? I always thought it was just a promotion that came and went...

Zane Condren
03-29-2006, 02:13 PM
$495 is the "permanent" price for additional seats. :lightwave

Lamont
03-29-2006, 02:49 PM
The price of LW has always been great, and it does everything that I'd use it for.

If you want the software to cost more to get more features, then buy it for $900 and the cut a check to NT for whatever you want to "donate".

Using other apps in your work flow is YOUR OWN ISSUE, and can't be used against NT. Buying plugins and extra apps have always been apart of being a digital artist.

If you find that one app that does EVERYTHING, let me know. Because right now, Maya needs a plugin called LW.

prospector
03-29-2006, 03:10 PM
Are we assuming (or know) that sales did not increase enough to offset the price drop?
this is where I think everyone is off base.
I'm 99% sure that when they lowered prices, sales jumped.

Why am I that sure?

Because it works that way with every item sold.

How much extra they made is one of Newteks secrets which is cool. But they must have made piles as we can see by the quality of coders they now have onboard. And I wouldn't think they come cheap.

A price increase may come at the peril of outrunning 3D M** for most pirated 3D package out there.

Lamont
03-29-2006, 03:32 PM
A price increase may come at the peril of outrunning 3D M** for most pirated 3D package out there.You make me ROFL.

Meaty
03-29-2006, 05:09 PM
I am sure that Newtek did not come to the decision to lower the price on a whim. They probably hired some great consultants to do market research and identify a short and long-term strategy, part of which, they obviously decided, was lowering the price.

(hrgiger, feel free to set me straight if I am interpreting your poll incorrectly.)
In a commercial context, pricing "fairness" is a fairly meaningless distinction. All public companies, and almost all private companies, e.g. Newtek, have a primary obligation to maximize value for the owners. In as much as Newtek is just another company selling their wares, I am going to assume that the "fairest" price is that which makes the most money for its owners. I'll also assume that, given my/our ignorance to the details of the research likely performed, they had much more information when it came to their decision than any of us have now. So, I voted that their current price is the "fairest" because it had the most deliberative process in its determination.

hrgiger
03-29-2006, 05:53 PM
Meaty, I guess by good and fair, I simply meant for the poll taker to give their view on what value they place on Lightwave. Obviously, Newtek will charge what they have to, this poll was merely an attempt to gain a perspective on how this little piece of the Lightwave community felt overall about the price change.

Speedmonk42
03-29-2006, 09:59 PM
Well I would go with the guy who suggested NT did its research and came to that price point for...well whatever their reasons were.

Under a grande might be a critical price point for a lot of legitimate users. The pirates won't care either way.

How is LW being recieved in Mac land? And what was the bit about quality coders they have hired someone mentioned earlier. Sounds exciting for the future.

starbase1
03-30-2006, 03:32 AM
I really think the original question is missleading...

Every company with a brain is going to try and maximise income from it's products. A lot of people in this thread seem to assume that this is directly proportional to the price of a new seat!

Just plain silly...

One income stream is pretty much determined by the cost and frequency of upgrades. I really think that people who have invested their time and effort in learning anything this complex are unlikely to change to a new package.

And in terms of new buyers, there is clearly a balance between selling more units at a lower price and less at a higher. Now if Newtek can sell many more by lowering the price that's good for all of us.

But they are the ONLY people in a position to make this decision, they rest of us can throw guesses around all we like, but thats all they are, guesses.

(Oh, and while I am at it, most who say they want a higher price seem to be really saying that the current version base package is missing some features they want a lot).

Nick

fyborg_1138
03-30-2006, 05:51 AM
Price was only one factor in my decision to purchase LW. There were numerous other factors that I considered before ordering it. I wasn't necessarily looking for the least expensive product, but I wanted to make sure I was getting the right bang for my buck. I did my research, looked at a number of affordable 3D programs, weighed and compared price/performance/ease of use/application. I investigated company histories, user support/tutorials/third-party software/books. I looked at the user communities and lurked on a number of discussion forums for awhile to get the flavor of the typical (or not so typical) user/fanboy/troll to determine whether I would fit in with the community.

I am, perhaps, one of the Boomer hobbyists and aspiring local freelancers that marketing wanted to tap into as a revenue source when they reduced the price. I am personally comfortable with buying software in the $500 to $1K range (e.g., MSOffice Pro, PhotoShop) but not above $1K. In my case, the current LW price hit my sweet spot. The inclusion of Vue/LWCAD/V9 upgrade made the deal even sweeter, though I would have purchased it without them. (I'm not beta… I can wait). I am willing to spend additional money for third-party software and plug-ins to add to my digital toolbox over time as needed and expand the capabilities of the core-process program. I do not care to spend huge sums for a universal-all-purpose-everything-included-nothing-else-ever-needed-super-software program that has components I may never need, or can use to their fullest potential. So, in my case, LW was the right application at the right time at the right price.

I think there is more profit to be made by marketing to the general masses, per se, than to high-end, high-profile users, and profit is the name of the game in business. If you hypothetically sell 10,000 seats with a mark-up of $100 per seat ($1M revenue) versus sell 500 seats with a mark-up of $2K per seat, ($1M) you get the same initial profit, but have a much larger user base for future upgrades and other potential sales. A product is much more visible with 10,000 new users willing to show other people what they can do with the program and extol its virtues than 500 high-end users who may need to keep their work confidential until their customer(s) allow its release. Some high-end user's customer(s) also may not allow use of their proprietary copyrighted material for your self-promotion in demo reels or allow users to even acknowledge that you/they used LW in the production (hey, it happens). Software promotion and exposure is much greater when selling to the general public than to the high-end commercial industry and would tend to increase sales, which is generally the point in business.

Just my two cents worth…I can not speak for others, who are welcome to have their own opinions.

hrgiger
03-30-2006, 01:29 PM
(Oh, and while I am at it, most who say they want a higher price seem to be really saying that the current version base package is missing some features they want a lot).

Nick

I would partially agree with that. I thinking more along the lines of the possibility of hiring new talent that might bring something new to Lightwave with the extra money brought in by a price hike. That or bring us features already in the pipe to us faster.

prospector
03-30-2006, 02:08 PM
I just don't understand the minds of those that believe that price increases bring more money.
That's like saying raising taxes bring more money. Which as we all know never works.
They tried that in Ca and now instead of getting a little money from me they get none as I go to Nevada to stock up on ciggys.
I also get more in cash now so they lose even more there too.

Car sales go sky high when they lower prices and watching the quarterly earnings reports, they also have higher earnings.

In the case of LW, there would be more piracy and in my case instead of upgrading every ver I would start to skip untill something came along that I absolutly NEEDED LW before I would upgrade.

Right now Newtek can count on me upgrading EVERY ver,
not looking into other programs, and not even using FREE 3D packages.

I believe that if Newtek treats me right I will inturn pledge my support for them.

I want to see them run every 3D program out of the market and they won't do that by raising prices.

hrgiger
03-30-2006, 02:29 PM
Well, first of all, Lightwave will never run all of the other 3D apps out of the market. Not everyone is going to like the way Lightwave does things and just lowering the price isn't changing those people's minds.

I'm not necessarily arguing against the price as it stands now, but Lightwave is already undercutting almost every professional app out there, with the exception of XSI foundation(which I don't count because of it's licensing render nodes limitation and limited growth potential-it's always going to be "foundation"), by at least $700. I think they could play with the price some in terms of raising the price within a few hundred dollars and still be the least expensive of the big apps.

I just knew someone was going to make a bogus car analogy, thanks for not making me wait too long...:)

jeremyhardin
03-30-2006, 02:34 PM
Well, first of all, Lightwave will never run all of the other 3D apps out of the market.

Agreed, and I think this is a good thing, personally. Multiple takes on the same tasks leads to efficiency. Every app does things differently, then sees that there are areas that competing apps have improved upon, then improves itself accordingly. Then everyone benefits.

If there were only one app, there'd be only one take on how to do things, and no reason to be 'cutting edge' when the current feature set is selling fine.

Beaker
03-30-2006, 04:01 PM
There will never be one perfect app.

There's always going to be someone that wants it to do something it doesn't already do.

There's always going to be someone that wants it to perform some function differently from how it does.

There's always going to be someone who wants it cheaper than it is.

And to top it all off, there's always going to be someone who wants to see if they can make an app themselves, even if it's just for the challenge of doing it. Which means there will always be two apps, a master and an apprentice. (Sorry, the SW pun was just too easy.)