View Full Version : 7.5c - panels STILL go behind main window!!!

05-21-2003, 02:47 PM
Frikkin h***! The Surface panels et al STILL ends up BEHIND the main window, both in Modeler and Lightwave. If I open, for instance, the Surface panel and click on the main window, the surface panel dissapears and can be found behind the main window. The same goes for all other windows. Just like 7.5b! This makes 7.5c TOTALLY USELLES to work with.

Also, OpenGL stutters when I move/rotate an object or the screen gets miscolored.

Shape up, Newtek... Anyone else has this problem?

I´m on OS 9.2.2/400MHZ/G4/400MB RAM to each application/Lousy 16MB ATI card - all this works ok with version 7.5.

Johan Grönwall

05-21-2003, 03:21 PM
I too am having the same problems reported by many users. The render display window drops behind the main screen and modeler just won't work at all.
What is up with this? I use an iMac 400mhz with 640 mb ram on Mac OS 9.2.2.:mad:

05-21-2003, 04:12 PM
It´s really weird - and the weirdest is that it hasn´t been fixed since 7.5b. I mean, this ought to be some sort of standard procedure when you program for the Mac - to not to have windows dissappear like that. Loads of other program has no problem with this. Wonder if this is a problem with the guys using X. If not, I fear us OS9:ers are finally left out in the cold.


05-21-2003, 05:07 PM
Lightwave on OS9 has always been buggy, the most stabile version of LW on OS9 was 6.5b, since that it just got worse and worse.

But I think now is the time for you to take the step to OSX! LW is running much better there. Just remember not to upgrade to 10.2.6!

05-21-2003, 05:43 PM
I can confirm the same problems. Both with 7.5b and 7.5c on Mac OS 9.2. If you open a window like the Surface Editor and then the Preset shelf, the first window dissapears behind the main APP window.

'I really hope this is a bug and not an intensional enhancement'.

Plus occassionally when I perform a function in the Modeler (like selecting a polygon on a box object) the whole screen goes like this crazy metalic colour.

Never had these problems with 7.5

05-21-2003, 05:45 PM
Just for my info. since I've just today upgraded my OSX, why do you warn against upgrading? I've been trying to use LW 7.5 in that OS and crashing. Is that why?

05-21-2003, 06:17 PM
Would someone from NewTek care to comment on the above? Hello? Anyone? Thought so...


05-21-2003, 06:52 PM
Apologies that you've been waiting for a NewTek staff to respond, I don't think any of us who are normally online have had a chance to be on today. I'll send the link to this thread to the programming staff.

05-21-2003, 08:01 PM
I think im just going to wait for LW8, these updates dont seem to be worth the trouble.
im staying with 7.5 + 10.2.4.
Sorry but seriously whats happened to the mac teams bug checking?

05-22-2003, 03:54 AM
Don't upgrade to 10.2.6 or 10.2.5 for that matter because:

OpenGL is hopeless (it always was on the Mac, but now it reached an altime low)
Slowdowns galore (and i mean slowdowns in the sense of 1 to 3 second freezes...)

It's buggy, weird problems with AFX and Photoshop (the hand tools for some reason all of a sudden seizes to work)

More then ever you get the spinning beachball when just clicking a window to make it active (a really nasty 10.2.6 bug)

Etc, not much there you can blame on Newtek, more on Steve Jobs' 'f**k those old school Power Users' recent attitude...

06-02-2003, 11:18 AM
Guys, are you sure we have something that is present in 7.5b and c but not in 7.5?

From what I understand, we've been using modal windows that go to background when you shift focus in the application since we first ported to Mac; therefore it seems like the behavior described should also be present in 7.5 and earlier versions. Is something different now, can you not shift focus back to the panels? And I'm asking for my benefit because I want to better understand, not on behalf of the development team - they have been advised of the issue and are reviewing it themselves as well, directly.


06-02-2003, 02:06 PM
ninjaman and DBMiller, you should check out this thread from a few days ago, "Pls. Recommend LW ver. for OS9"


06-02-2003, 02:27 PM
Firstly, since my english is somewhat limited, I can´t tell what is the difference between a window, a requester and a panel. I use these terms to depict anything that pops up when you click a button within Lightwave or Modeler.

Simply put, a window/requester/panel refuses to "float" above the main window, but instead ends up behind it when I either click on an object in the scene or click to open another window/requester/panel. This problem persists no matter what requester/window/panel I open.

As an example (with Lightwave but it´s the same with Modeler):

1. I open Lightwave and the main window open alright

2. I import an object

3. I open The Surface Editor to make some changes on the objects surfaces and so the window/requester/panel opens with no problems

4. I then decide I instead want to change some parameters on a light in the scene. I click on the light in the scene.

5. The Surface Requester now disappears BEHIND the main Lightwave window and can be seen no more!

6. If I want to bring the Surface requester back, I either have to turn/click OFF and then ON the Surface button in Lightwave OR grab the main Lightwave window and drag it to the side or downwards (so I can see the desktop) to reveal the Surface Requester.

HOWEVER, if I open a Macintosh specific window/requester/panel, i e I choose "Save" or "Save as" or "Load Scene" or something like that - then the window/requester/panel WILL NOT go behind the main window. So this has to be a Lightwave specific problem.

Window/requester/panels that DO WORK in Lightwave is: Edit Meny Layout, Edit Keyboard Shortcuts, Frames Per Second, Command Input, Edit Plug-Ins, Activate Last Plug-In Interface and the About Lightwave. And there are many more, but I just don´t have the time to check them all out. Consequently, some Window/requester/panels works ok, but some don´t. Do you really have to know which ones does what...?

As for Modeler - what DOES NOT WORK is the Surface requester, the Numeric Panel, the Image Editor, the Statistics window, the Vertex Maps Open/Close window and the layer Browsing window. ALL other window/requester/panel works fine, i e they stay on top of the main window.

It has to be some sort of problem having to do with the (hold on now, cause I´m not a programmer) OnFocus and OnBlur commands (if something like that exists).

Hope this clears things up somewhat!

Johan Grönwall

06-02-2003, 07:12 PM
I wonder is this related to the ATI bug? If so, you might be able to find a GeForce2 card taken out of a later model G4, on ebay (like this one:

- that would really boost your display too... I remember that 16mb ati... agonizing pain...

It might also help a little to keep some of those panels open, off to the side,and re-size the modeler window so it will never cover the panels - like the numeric, statistics and layer panels - I always leave them open - still sounds like a royal pain tho

06-02-2003, 07:17 PM
To NewTek tech. The problem I was having was new to 7.5b then 7.5c when I tried that. I was using Mac 9.2.2 for both, then I tried OSX and added the Modeler crash problem. When I would renter a scene with render display on the render window would pop up as always, just behind the render in progress window. When I clicked abort or hit escape the render window would drop behind the main Layout window. It never did that before. I've had LW on a Mac since 6.5b (and on an Amiga since 3.5).
What I would like to know is if any one is having this trouble but no others with 7.5c on OSX? I could work around this quirk if that is all that is wrong. Thanks.

06-02-2003, 07:32 PM
This might be an OS 9 issue. I'm running LW7.5c, ATI 8500, MAC OS 10.2.4
and all of the requesters that I've opened (surface editor, numerics, statistics, etc, etc...) stay in front of the main application window. ;)

06-02-2003, 10:08 PM
Any easy way of getting back to 10.2.4 without having to do a total reinstall or something?

06-03-2003, 12:39 AM
no - as a matter of fact, it's risky to merely do a clean install, you may have problems if you don't "zero" the drive. Unix has lots of hidden files, some of which can cause big problems for a brand new system installed on top of them.

Mr. Miller -

I worked at a Mac store when 10.2.4 came out, a LOT of people had serious problems immediately after upgrading. The rule of thumb here is "if it ain't broke...", I'm still on 10.2.3, and I don't see any advantage to upgrading. These updates make really minor improvements for font-end users like us, but can cause major problems. The ATI bug started with 10.2.5.

I hear that 10.2.5 and 6 cause more frequent and longer fits of spinning beachballs - yuk!

06-03-2003, 05:17 AM
I installed 10.2 again on my second drive. Then I upgraded to 10.2.4, and Lightwave is running much better than it did on 10.2.6 (slow and crash bom bang)

I have to say that LW 7.5 on 10.2.4 is very stabel and works pretty much the same as the PC version does (using PC's too). I have no what so ever problem with windows disapering under the main window! The only problem i got is that openGL speed gets worse when you have many modal windows open, but thats apples fault, due to quarts. And often when I edit something in the properties panel I get garbage on the screen, but its not dangerues:)

06-03-2003, 08:55 AM
Here's what we have so far determined, by some feedback from our beta crew:

Prior to 7.5b we were using separate executables for OS9 and OSX. At 7.5b we began supplying largely a single set of executables that operated under either OS9 or OSX. The issue with panels is that behavior of OS9 and of OSX with regard to modal panels is not the same, though from the information we had, we had expected that it would be. The dev team is discussing what to do at this point - it is non-trivial to attempt to return to non-merged executables, and it is not certain how we may be able to account for the issue in the current merged executables.

06-03-2003, 09:32 AM
may i suggest dropping os 9 support altogether?

Its not like Lightwave ever ran really well in os 9.

I would also like to point out that the UI conventions used by LW have painted you guys into this corner. The surface window, the scene editor, all of those extraneous, windows.... SHOULD NOT BE MODAL. EVER. They are document windows, and Not Tool palletes, save/print dialogs, or warnings.
If it ever becomes a priority to Re-do the interface... Properly... then this is how you do it...

allow multiple windows per document, allow multiple panes per window (like it is now). allow any pane to house any of these functions... scene editor, motion mixer, spreadsheet, surface editor, etc... basically everything that you guys have re-designed the wheel for.

06-03-2003, 01:00 PM
I agree. OS 9 support will only create more problems going forward, and by officially supporting it you become responsible for making it work. (Which is something Newtek should take more seriously anyway) Serious 3D artists (and really anyone except for the poor Quark users), should have moved to OS X or Win2K/XP by now anyway. If they haven't yet, here's an excellent opportunity to make the jump.

06-03-2003, 01:15 PM
Yes, Drop OS9

I am honestly suprised that you guys are even trying.

the only thing holding people back from OSX is Quark, but Indesign is better anyway.

Do any of you guys even watch the Apple Keynotes?

Steve Jobs held a public funeral for OS 9 quite a while ago. It was supposed to be a message to developers to stop developing for OS9. Guess you guy were not paying attention.

I'll ask again, are any of the Newtek people going to the WWDC?

06-03-2003, 05:19 PM
Of course we're paying attention - we just didn't think that the appropriate time to make a change in the supported OS list was late in the 7.x cycle, since that cycle had included OS9 versions prior to 7.5b. I'm sure many will feel free to second guess that decision. Hindsight is certainly always 20/20.

06-03-2003, 05:49 PM
Thanks for the honesty Chuck,

I know that some users are on Os9 still , but they shouldn't be. If their computer can't run OSX it can't run LW.

It's only $129.00 and aprx $75.00 for students to buy Jaguar. There is no reason to still be on OS9. OSX has been commercially viable for over 2 years, It's time to move on.

Just think, If you started rewriting LW OSX native with 7.0 we would be basking in the glory by now.

Oh well, I just hope LW 8 has this in mind.

06-03-2003, 08:56 PM
Trouble with Modeler is largely dependent on the video card you're using. Since upgrading from a laptop with only 8MB of VRAM to a desktop with 64MB, Modeler has gotten a lot more stable and less quirky. However, ATI's drivers seem to be lacking when it comes to serious OpenGL usage, specifically in modeler. I currently have issues getting the grid and my model's points to show up at the same time (if I use simple points with "Color Wireframe" selected as my view option, then I get a semblance of normality.)

A lot of this also seems to be dependent on which ATI card you're using. Despite the miniscule amount of RAM in my laptop, the ATI Rage 128 chipset worked with fewer display problems than my brand-new ATI Radeon 9000 Pro. I'd be interested to hear what nVidia users have to say.

I think part of the Modeler display issues stem from the fact that it seems to implement the interactive aspects of OpenGL differently than Layout; it's always been buggier than Layout, since version 5.0 first came out for the Mac. (You think it's bad now, you should have seen the "orange screen of death" in the first version of Modeler, using QuickDraw.)