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View Full Version : New LightWave v9 Video - Modeler: Dissolve Tool



Kurtis
03-13-2006, 10:53 AM
We've added a new LightWave v9 Feature Video to the videos page:
http://www.lightwave3d.com/lw9_demos.php

The new video is Modeler: Dissolve Tool
ftp://ftp.newtek.com/pub/LightWave/LW9/Dissolve.avi

Jure
03-13-2006, 10:59 AM
Usefull tool. But why the funny name? Couldn't you just name it remove edge or loop or something more descriptive like that? :)

SaturnX
03-13-2006, 11:16 AM
Delete edge loop... combine poly loop... contour erase.... contour delete.... contour Destroy!! ...
hmm... dunno about those... but dissolve ?

A handy little tool though. cool. :thumbsup:

Nemoid
03-13-2006, 12:51 PM
It is very handy , BTW... :) but I don't understand exactly why don't just be allowed to select edges and hit canc or even k ? we can do that with polygons.

ANS
03-13-2006, 02:24 PM
for me it looks like another bandglue.....

Cheers.

ps: i want to know something about motion blur in LW9... it's improved, or done in old fashioned, crappy & slow way?

harlan
03-13-2006, 02:29 PM
Dissolve?? Dissolve??? Why the **** would anyone call a tool that removes edge loops "dissolve"??? This ridiculous tool naming non-sense is getting absurd, and just when I was beginning to regain my faith in Lightwave.

Grrrrr... Well I'm off to Snowboard...errr... I mean animate. In case you haven't heard, NewTek has decided to rename "animate" to "snowboard" as it's much more descriptive of the actual process.

Dissolve?? sheeeeeeeesh... I just threw up a little bit in my mouth there.

Pavlov
03-13-2006, 02:32 PM
for me it looks like another bandglue.....

Cheers.

ps: i want to know something about motion blur in LW9... it's improved, or done in old fashioned, crappy & slow way?

some users pointed out that "delete" cmd in LW acts on all entities; this means that deleting a point act also on polys, i.e.
Deleting an edge would mean deleting also the 2 points and this would destroy geometry. This cmd allow for a selective removing, since it acts just on the edge and not on the points it represents.
Paolo

PS Harlan, ROTFL ! Isnt this "Sarcazzi-gon" fever kinda funny... i mean it's quite "oompa-loompa" isnt it ? Doh, here's a good name for a new array tool... ;)

Stooch
03-13-2006, 02:43 PM
OK, this is BS on many levels.

1) newtek has clearly stated that they are consolidating features. And here we have yet another tool that seems to act just like band glue.

2) what happened to the plain delete button? why cant simply deleting an edge do the same thing?

3) I want to see an EDGE SEGMENT deleted, not the whole loop. what happens if a segment is gone? will it break the cc surface?

overall, yet another video showing off yet another redundant feature instead of integrating AS PROMISED. are they even reading the forums? jesus christ.

BazC
03-13-2006, 03:06 PM
Another great tool with a great name, thanks Newtek! :D :thumbsup:

Pavlov
03-13-2006, 03:07 PM
ROTFL, arghflflflf.... im floored !
you two guys are too funny ;))))))

Paolo

mav3rick
03-13-2006, 04:02 PM
hmmm
itsn nothin else than bandglue:) but renamed

lardbros
03-13-2006, 04:29 PM
Hang on... so it JUST works on edges?!??!? Is this a joke?? Come on PLEASE!!! start to consolidate the tools, i don't want more of the same but for edges, please just make atleast a tool that will do the same for points AND polys!!

What can we use currently to get rid of points/polys in the same manner?

I think the toolset being minimised has to be number one for LW right now, yet they insist on throwing many more tools for each modelling type (points/polys/edges) My 17" monitor won't handle any more tools!!

Pavlov
03-13-2006, 04:54 PM
[QUOTE=lardbros]I think the toolset being minimised has to be number one for LW right nowQUOTE]

Are you kidding, rigth ? This is going BACK to the past.
We're fortunate enough that Newtek doesnt listen to these absurd suggestions and goes forward in a deep and all-round consolidation.

:2guns: :cursin:

Paolo

lardbros
03-13-2006, 05:02 PM
So you reckon having a tool to "dissolve" an edge, a polygon, and a point each should be separate? A tool for moving something should be separate to one that moves something along it's normal/local/world coordinates?? What are you on? We need less of these tools that have a single function, and that only work on one out of the three choices of selection!! Why have a dissolve tool that ONLY works on bloody edges? It's madness!

and when i said minimised... i didn't mean remove useful tools and options... i mean make the interface lean and clean rather than stock us up with hundreds of tools which have the same function but on different selections!

SaturnX
03-13-2006, 05:03 PM
.... 2) what happened to the plain delete button? why cant simply deleting an edge do the same thing? ...

I agree with that. A semi-intelligent modeler option, that knows whether are not to maintain the polys after deleting an edge or points would be useful.
Dissolve does that i guess.. but yet again.. 'in another tool to remember kinda way.'

It feels like, we're gonna have countless new 3rd party orientated plug addons... in modeler... that could and should be better organised and consolidated... not to mention, better labeling of certain tools.

Its quite a big dept to fill i think... and would most probably mean a gui clean up sooner, rather than later. How difficult can that be? I'd like to see something of that nature started in a lw9 release... as opposed to later on down the line.
lw is in dire need of a GUI cleanup. nothing major interms of a new design, just simply.. its tools cleaned up and better organised.

KillMe
03-13-2006, 05:05 PM
yeah tahts really jstu bandglue infact it looked awful like it simple selected the 2 polys then ran bandglue

should be able to just loop slect thte edge and hit delete and the edges are gone poly still there

Pavlov
03-13-2006, 05:26 PM
[QUOTE] So you reckon having a tool to "dissolve" an edge, a polygon, and a point each should be separate? [QUOTE]

lardbros: (LOL) apologize if it was not clear, i was just kidding.
I'm disappointed for these implementations, imho they're taking a wrong direction. These are small, redundant tools but we'd like powerfull, omnicomprensive, smart, interactive, context-sensitive, control-rich tools which resume together a lot of tools.
;)

Paolo

Carm3D
03-13-2006, 07:24 PM
I have to concur. I've been pretty stoked with the new features of LW9, but this one think I wouldn't have made a video for. I'd try to slide it under the door with fine print. Would be better to have the delete key do this while in edges mode.

slow67
03-13-2006, 08:17 PM
While I think the delete key argument is valid, I also notice that this is a standard box modeling tool(wings3d, and the many modules for other packages that cloned mirai's functionality)with a standard name (wings3d,etc..etc) that people who are not familiar with lightwave will imediatly recognize and use.Maybe they are building more standard modeling tools in that will be easier to bring into layout when the time comes. So what tool would you use if for some reason you needed to actually quickly Delete that loop and its points without leaving edge mode? If eges are true edges then the delete key will only remove the selected edges and only the selected edges creating ngons.

ercaxus
03-13-2006, 10:40 PM
Yep. The wings version works on poins, polys and edges. It is (or tries to be) a non-destructive way of removing unwanted detail. The video shouldn't have showed just a bandglue operation, that's the problem I believe.
I also hope "It works on edges" doesn't mean "It works 'only' on edges". That wouldn't be cool. Adding ability to work on edges to original band glue would be cool tjough.

mav3rick
03-14-2006, 12:01 AM
well they should just rewrite bandglue to support edges and that's it i dont see point of one more plugin and tab to be used in modeler...... lw already has WAY too much buttons and windows.....

slow67
03-14-2006, 01:40 AM
lw already has WAY too much buttons and windows.....

I agree there are too many tools,plugins that do slight variants of the same things, but thats why we get to edit our menus and tabs the way we like them I personally dont like having 10 different options within one tool, I would rather have all the basic non application specific tools in one tab and if I need to muddle around with numeric(am I the only one who finds messing around with panels while modeling a creative block), I would rather switch tabs, since the creative flow has already stoped. For me I guess it is all about smooth workflow I dont want to have to think to much, and I sure dont want to mess around with presets and what not just to add/remove a few edges. With the right hot key setup and simple tools that do not require interaction there is alot less time wasted IMHO. Sorry for the Rant but these simple tools with simple names are important to me.

BazC
03-14-2006, 02:39 AM
I agree there are too many tools,plugins that do slight variants of the same things, but thats why we get to edit our menus and tabs the way we like them I personally dont like having 10 different options within one tool, I would rather have all the basic non application specific tools in one tab and if I need to muddle around with numeric(am I the only one who finds messing around with panels while modeling a creative block), I would rather switch tabs, since the creative flow has already stoped. For me I guess it is all about smooth workflow I dont want to have to think to much, and I sure dont want to mess around with presets and what not just to add/remove a few edges. With the right hot key setup and simple tools that do not require interaction there is alot less time wasted IMHO. Sorry for the Rant but these simple tools with simple names are important to me.

I agree 100% Looks to me as though NT are building a good simple direct modelling toolset and adding more complex/sophisticated tools later. It's absolutely the right decision IMO. Let's wait and see how the toolset works out in a few months time!

Pavlov
03-14-2006, 02:48 AM
I agree 100% Looks to me as though NT are building a good simple direct modelling toolset and adding more complex/sophisticated tools later. It's absolutely the right decision IMO. Let's wait and see how the toolset works out in a few months time!

I truly envy your faith, i'd have to force me to blindness to have such one.
Let's discuss this in a few months.

Paolo

colkai
03-14-2006, 03:00 AM
I think there MUST be some consolidation of tools, and whilst I don't feel the need to rant and rave and froth at the mouth, I do think Newtek need to look at some of these tools and "tidy them up".

For me, the video was probably a bad example as it was nothing the current bandglue won't do, try dissolving some edges in another way and you'll see it's more than a bandglue clone.

IMO the 'Dissolve' tool (bad name choice) is really what "Reduce Edges" should be doing, killing the edge but leaving the points, (we could also have an option under the numeric panel which allows us to choose if we wish to keep points or not to give us more flexibility).

'Remove Edges' should be ...well.. removed ;) The 'del' button with edges select should perform this action so no need for 2 tools.
Add edges should stay as is as this is very handy and pretty much under user control.
The 'Connect' tool should be the mirror of the dissolve/reduce edges still as I think it would be too complex to try and have it incorporated into "add edges" .

I hope Newtek do listen to peoples reactions here, I can hope that they will be looking at consolidation, but the issuing of additional plugins to do the same / similar actions tends to send a signal that is to the contrary.

All we can do is put forward our case and observations and hope that the neccessary people are listening and the developers informed.

lardbros
03-14-2006, 03:20 AM
lardbros: (LOL) apologize if it was not clear, i was just kidding.
I'm disappointed for these implementations, imho they're taking a wrong direction. These are small, redundant tools but we'd like powerfull, omnicomprensive, smart, interactive, context-sensitive, control-rich tools which resume together a lot of tools.
;)

Paolo

Whoops!! :D Sorry about going off on one!! That's a major problem with these forums (or fori ??) is that things can be taken the wrong way when they are just text. DOH! Sorry about that.

As for colkai not ranting and frothing at the mouth... that's a good idea... i'll stop ranting and go wipe my chops! :D

Dodgy
03-14-2006, 03:21 AM
In the video he used Select loop to select the edges before dissolving them. This is better than band glue because it only works on selected edges, rather than finding a path all the way around the object with no control by the user. I believe it also works with polys/points, and removes any edges attached to a dissolved point, or removes edges surrounded by selected polys. In that way it is uniform.

So it's more controllable than bandsaw, and works on all element types. This to me is a good thing, and could lead to less immediate tools like remove edges, band glue, merge polygons and so on being replaced with one tool and one hotkey. I'd call that consolidation. Remember, we haven't seen the final menus/hotkeys, so that multitude of keys/menu items could all go, or at least be left without separate hotkeys.

BazC
03-14-2006, 04:00 AM
I truly envy your faith, i'd have to force me to blindness to have such one.
Let's discuss this in a few months.

Paolo

Well I'm still fairly new to Lightwave so maybe I just haven't become jaded! :D To me it's not a matter of faith but logic.

1) These new tools that everyone is complaining about are the tools I learnt to model with in Wings and I love em, simple and direct and versatile.

2) Newtek have already said they intend to consolidate the toolset so either they are lying or they haven't started work on that yet. I think the second is more likely!

3) Sophisticated "smart" tools are being implemented in all the big packages and even some of the smaller cheaper ones. I don't think Newtek have any choice about adding these sorts of tools at some point. I suspect they're just not ready yet! :D

walfridson
03-14-2006, 04:34 AM
Can't test it right now but he has several layers active as well. Does this work with bandglue?

stone
03-14-2006, 05:10 AM
the tool seems pretty useful to me. its really about what result you are expecting to achive.

if i hit delete key, i would expect result A, deleting the faces.
with remove edges i would expect result B, keeping the vetices.
with dissolve tool i would expect result C, both edges and vetices removed.

B and C are so similar that both should be included in the same tool possible changing effect with the stroke of a modifier key.

/stone

DogBoy
03-14-2006, 05:18 AM
Can't test it right now but he has several layers active as well. Does this work with bandglue?

Obviously you can't test it, its in LW9 ;) (and if your on the beta why are you posting here? Don't they give you guys a forum? Don't just taunt us wi' your betaness, you heartless beast :D).

Watching the vid, I very much doubt that Dissolve would work across layers, as geometry on different layers are not connected. Proton, or whoever, (I've not got speakers/'phones on this machine) just had lots o' layers showing to show off his new Robot model.

Dan

Pavlov
03-14-2006, 05:24 AM
Well I'm still fairly new to Lightwave so maybe I just haven't become jaded! :D To me it's not a matter of faith but logic.

1) These new tools that everyone is complaining about are the tools I learnt to model with in Wings and I love em, simple and direct and versatile.

2) Newtek have already said they intend to consolidate the toolset so either they are lying or they haven't started work on that yet. I think the second is more likely!

3) Sophisticated "smart" tools are being implemented in all the big packages and even some of the smaller cheaper ones. I don't think Newtek have any choice about adding these sorts of tools at some point. I suspect they're just not ready yet! :D

dont get me wrong, you've ALL your rights to be enthusiast !
I'm just bringing my expectations, which are quite different. I'd love powerful but complex tools (SP_move and all pictrix's, Wtools, and so on) instead of a simple but basic ones. Usually i dislike tools witn no control at all.
Just different approaches, nothing wrong in your thoughts.

Stone: yes it IS useful, it is how poorly/patchy it's implemented to be not that good. The whole delete/dissolve/edge tools should imho be collapsed in just a few non redundant tools.

Paolo

BazC
03-14-2006, 05:36 AM
dont get me wrong, you've ALL your rights to be enthusiast !
I'm just bringing my expectations, which are quite different. I'd love powerful but complex tools (SP_move and all pictrix's, Wtools, and so on) instead of a simple but basic ones. Usually i dislike tools witn no control at all.
Just different approaches, nothing wrong in your thoughts.

Stone: yes it IS useful, it is how poorly/patchy it's implemented to be not that good. The whole delete/dissolve/edge tools should imho be collapsed in just a few non redundant tools.

Paolo

Well let's hope that in 6 months or so we'll BOTH be grinning! :D

Captain Obvious
03-14-2006, 06:06 AM
In my opinion, it's not so much the question of complex vs simple tools, but the question of specific vs generic tools. I just want one bevel tool, and have it work on verts, polys and edges; one extrude tool that works the same way; and so on.

And "Dissolve" is a stupid name. You already have a "Dissolve" function, in Layout.

Stooch
03-14-2006, 06:09 AM
I agree there are too many tools,plugins that do slight variants of the same things, but thats why we get to edit our menus and tabs the way we like them I personally dont like having 10 different options within one tool, I would rather have all the basic non application specific tools in one tab and if I need to muddle around with numeric(am I the only one who finds messing around with panels while modeling a creative block), I would rather switch tabs, since the creative flow has already stoped. For me I guess it is all about smooth workflow I dont want to have to think to much, and I sure dont want to mess around with presets and what not just to add/remove a few edges. With the right hot key setup and simple tools that do not require interaction there is alot less time wasted IMHO. Sorry for the Rant but these simple tools with simple names are important to me.


Select edge. hit delete. how is that a mental block? honestly? at the rate the current "consolidation" is going. Im glad i pre ordered [email protected]@@ 201.

lardbros
03-14-2006, 06:16 AM
In my opinion, it's not so much the question of complex vs simple tools, but the question of specific vs generic tools. I just want one bevel tool, and have it work on verts, polys and edges; one extrude tool that works the same way; and so on.



Now that's exactly what i was trying to say, but just didn't say it as concisely or half as well.

and as for the name "dissolve" i think Newtek must be going through a dictionary from A-Z... first connect and now dissolve... we will be "escalating" or "engulfing" polygons next! :D

walfridson
03-14-2006, 06:19 AM
Obviously you can't test it, its in LW9 ;)
I'm not a betatester and I was asking about LW8 :p
I'm not home so I can't test it here, ok? :)

Captain Obvious
03-14-2006, 06:27 AM
Select edge. hit delete. how is that a mental block? honestly? at the rate the current "consolidation" is going. Im glad i pre ordered [email protected]@@ 201.
I'm afraid I'll have to agree with that. Too bad it's three months late now. :(

Dodgy
03-14-2006, 07:18 AM
I think it's a more controllable instantaneous replacement for the Merge polygons tool/bandglue/remove edges tool. I think that says consolidation. If it's called something other uses will recognise, then fair enough.

Stooch
03-14-2006, 07:27 AM
the tool seems pretty useful to me. its really about what result you are expecting to achive.

if i hit delete key, i would expect result A, deleting the faces.
with remove edges i would expect result B, keeping the vetices.
with dissolve tool i would expect result C, both edges and vetices removed.

B and C are so similar that both should be included in the same tool possible changing effect with the stroke of a modifier key.

/stone

Thats all great but why do you need all those options? they just create clutter....

you want to delete edges and faces? fine! select the faces you dont want and delete!

You want to delete edges but not points? FINE! select edges and delete.

You want to delete vertices and edges cleanly? FINE! select vertices and delete (although currently modeler doesnt delete cleanly, it kills the faces in the process even though i just want to kill the points.

see how simple and logical this is? no need for 3 different tools...

stone
03-14-2006, 07:50 AM
Thats all great but why do you need all those options? they just create clutter....

you want to delete edges and faces? fine! select the faces you dont want and delete!

You want to delete edges but not points? FINE! select edges and delete.

You want to delete vertices and edges cleanly? FINE! select vertices and delete (although currently modeler doesnt delete cleanly, it kills the faces in the process even though i just want to kill the points.

see how simple and logical this is? no need for 3 different tools...

they dont just clutter- if i have edges selected and want to delete the faces i dont want to make another selection, i just want to hit the delete key and rid the faces. forcing people to make all those selections sure is a workflow killer. i rather want better tools than having to waste presious time selecting stuff which i already have represented with my current selection.

/stone

Stooch
03-14-2006, 07:57 AM
funny but there are already tools in LW that let you convert selections into other types. like polys to points and vice versa. A cool way to "consolidate" those is to maybe add a modifier to the mode selector, so if you hold shift and then click on polys while having edges selected, it would use the conversion tool to select the polys represented by those edges, or points etc

Wickster
03-14-2006, 08:54 AM
Guys (and gals if there are some here :) ) its a video, its a tool. Its a video of a tool in LW9. As far as how things are turning out it seems Newtek is just following what we wanted them to do in the first place...

We wanted more info on LW9, they give us more info.
We ranted about releasing more videos, they released more videos (at a good rate too).

At this reate, we all can see that NT is documenting "ALL" features of LW9 BIG and small. Maybe NT will consolidate all similar tools in the future, who knows but as of right now you need similar tools to consolidate. Maybe these are replacements to older tools but they couldn't bring themselves to delete the old tools yet and maybe they're waiting for you to tell them which tool you preffer.

Edges brought a lot things in the table that LW may or may not be ready about. LW9 is the first LW release that deals with Edges and obviously making tools behave the way we wanted it to would take some time. It's an extra tool people, use it or don't, simple as that. If we don't like how it works then pass a suggestion to NT, they've listen to us so far.

I'm sorry if I'm really grumpy this morning (haven't had coffee yet) but I find this similar to: "Recieving a white sweater with green stripes for your birthday and complaining about it, when there are less fortunate people out there."

Attack away.

colkai
03-14-2006, 11:17 AM
Maybe NT will consolidate all similar tools in the future, who knows but as of right now you need similar tools to consolidate. Maybe these are replacements to older tools but they couldn't bring themselves to delete the old tools yet and maybe they're waiting for you to tell them which tool you preffer.

Edges brought a lot things in the table that LW may or may not be ready about. LW9 is the first LW release that deals with Edges and obviously making tools behave the way we wanted it to would take some time.

This is what I personally am hoping is the case, but one can't blame people for wondering why some features seem fragmented. I do accept what your saying, that down the line, things suddenly change as a point is reached where the consolidation truly takes place.
Time will tell no doubt.

Stooch
03-14-2006, 07:35 PM
I'm sorry if I'm really grumpy this morning (haven't had coffee yet) but I find this similar to: "Recieving a white sweater with green stripes for your birthday and complaining about it, when there are less fortunate people out there."

Attack away.

im sorry that you have to pay for your birthday presents.

personally, i dont consider these features as presents.

Wickster
03-14-2006, 09:24 PM
What's wrong with paying for BandGlue and getting Dissolve for free?

Stooch
03-14-2006, 10:50 PM
its not free. you have to pay for the update remember?

Wickster
03-15-2006, 09:24 AM
Well I just 'think' Dissolve was added because the original program/code for delete wasn't made for handling edges just yet, so dissolve was created in the meantime. Delete seems to handle edge delete the same manner as selecting 2 points and deleting it. I'm not a programmer but I do believe in order to avoid bugs its better to create a new tool than to modify an old one.

Ofcourse this is specualtions but now that dissolve is here, and its a new code. It's possible to keep tweaking dissolve to become the new "Delete" without modifying old Delete and maybe later down the line complete replaces it. At least that's what I'm hoping for in most of the tools.