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zapper1998
02-28-2006, 06:10 AM
I don't know if this the right place for this..

But I was reading an article that Cinema4D has a new Hair generator that does hair, and a few other things, wow...

Newtek come on, everybody else has the Hair generator now, except Lightwave????

I would REALLY hate to sell my seat and switch to another software, I love Lightwave, I have tried the other demo's and they well don't come cloase to LW, but if there no hair.....I don't know, I might have to consider switching...to another software, Please consider a hair generator like the rest of em, Newtek you need to stay ahead of the pack, and having a hair generator would put you well ahead of the pack....:thumbsup:
Michael

Cageman
02-28-2006, 06:25 AM
It is a good feature request, will not argue with that, but this is bound to be regarded as a typical "grass is greener" post because of the general tone in your post.

If it is true what you say that LW is alot better, then why don't you use LW for what it is, and add a tool to your workflow that allows for better hair? Whatever package you use, you will always, ALWAYS, see things in other packages that is better or cooler. I believe that a full version of Sasquatch is quite capable if used right; maybe you should ask Worley to make a new, updated version of Sas that allows for whatever workflow found in C4D's own hairsolution. I don't think NewTek has the time right now to implement features that are allready taken care of by third party.

I say, let NewTek finish LW9, then bother them with whatever you want.. :)

spec24
02-28-2006, 08:40 AM
maybe you should ask Worley to make a new, updated version of Sas that allows for whatever workflow found in C4D's own hairsolution.


agreed - a lot of nice things in C4D's hair that I'd love to see implemented in Sas.

BazC
02-28-2006, 11:08 AM
Like the price! :D (sorry, couldn't resist!)

AbnRanger
02-28-2006, 02:10 PM
It is a good feature request, will not argue with that, but this is bound to be regarded as a typical "grass is greener" post because of the general tone in your post.

If it is true what you say that LW is alot better, then why don't you use LW for what it is, and add a tool to your workflow that allows for better hair? Whatever package you use, you will always, ALWAYS, see things in other packages that is better or cooler. I believe that a full version of Sasquatch is quite capable if used right; maybe you should ask Worley to make a new, updated version of Sas that allows for whatever workflow found in C4D's own hairsolution. I don't think NewTek has the time right now to implement features that are allready taken care of by third party.

I say, let NewTek finish LW9, then bother them with whatever you want.. :)It isn't whether a package has something cooler, as you say. It's the fact that EVERY....can you say that with me?...E-V-E-R-Y....that's right...I thought you could. EVERY single one of their major competitors has HAIR/FUR built in. If it's as trivial as you say it is...why did THEY bother? Don't they have other issues, like Newtek, to be more concerned about?
Don't they TOO have third party solutions?
So your arguement, then, doesn't hold water my friend.:thumbsdow Nor does telling folks that a legitimate request is a trivial one...especially when many here share those sentiments.
Many new LW customers who are attracted to LW due to it's pricepoint, aren't going to be happy with having to buy a plugin that costs nearly as much as LW does (close to 70%...that's not even considering the Vue 5 addition which is worth as much as SAS, itself alone!), just for hair and fur.
The second point is, that if one doesn't think SAS, with it's limitations, is worth $500 for, as you say, "GOOD ENOUGH"...you have NO OPTIONS, aside from going to another MAJOR competitor. Sure, you may have to spend more...but heck, since we have to "spend more" any way, why not just leave and go with a package that HAS SOME OPTIONS. Not having any other option than SAS is the big sticking point with me. If we had Ornatrix or Shave N Haircut for say $150-$295 there wouldn't be many people asking Newtek about this subject.
But then we have guys like yourself...and it seems with Newtek's silence...as well as Worley's refusing to answer questions about furture upgrades and compatiblitiy with 9 and the 64bit platform...telling us essentially, "If you don't like it, LEAVE."
I'm afraid that's just about what I'm prepared to do.

Cageman
02-28-2006, 02:33 PM
Didn't I write that it IS a valid feature request?

As you may notice, LightWave lacks some other, in my opinion, more important features than a native hair generator. Yes, you are right, other apps have a solution, but clearly, other apps have other solutions to other areas where LightWave _might_ be lacking (depending on who you ask).

I'm just sick of all doom and gloom posts about people leaving because LW doesn't have a cheap enough solution or a specific feature. The same guy that screams about hair/fur in LW will scream about something else in that other app...

All in all, I agree with you, but I don't see a reason for me to leave... wether or not you do that, well, it's up to you. Just don't try to drag me with you when you fall. :)

How much do you have to pay to get fur/hair in Maya, Max or C4D? Isn't hair part of Maya Unlimited, which cost alot more than LightWave? Max, well... don't know if they have different versions, but it isn't cheap. That is two, out of...how many competitors?

EDIT: Maybe I would have a different view of this if I had the chance to work with LightWave in a real production. Too bad there are not many studios in Sweden that use LightWave. Would be alot more fun working with LightWave, but over here, Maya is the king... :/

AbnRanger
02-28-2006, 03:07 PM
The original poster wasn't spreading doom and gloom, but was hoping the software he's accustomed to would bring itself up to date with a, now standard, feature. If it's a needed feature for a LW user, they have 3 choices to make.
1) Suck it up and and pay up...for Sas..which is an inferior product, compared to Shave N Haircut and Ornatrix/Hairtrix

2) Pay up anyway and migrate to a major competitor that not only has Hair/Fur, but a number of other features, as you mentioned, are lacking in LW

3) or...ask Newtek to "Get on the Stick.".

Sounds like he chose the latter

Bog
02-28-2006, 03:23 PM
Can't particularly see the point of having uber-nice hair and then ruining it by not having subsurface scattering on your model, but there you go.

The base price of C4D is similar to LW's (a few quid more, looks like). Yes, it would be lovely in NewTek included a full hair-shader as standard, rather than a Light version. I wouldn't mind a few tweaks and twiddles here and there. I could point out that there's a feature request thread, though one would hate to be churlish.

zapper1998
02-28-2006, 04:13 PM
It isn't whether a package has something cooler, as you say. It's the fact that EVERY....can you say that with me?...E-V-E-R-Y....that's right...I thought you could. EVERY single one of their major competitors has HAIR/FUR built in. If it's as trivial as you say it is...why did THEY bother? Don't they have other issues, like Newtek, to be more concerned about?
Don't they TOO have third party solutions?
So your arguement, then, doesn't hold water my friend.:thumbsdow Nor does telling folks that a legitimate request is a trivial one...especially when many here share those sentiments.
Many new LW customers who are attracted to LW due to it's pricepoint, aren't going to be happy with having to buy a product that costs nearly as much as LW does (close to 70%...that's not even considering the Vue 5 addition which is worth as much as SAS, itself alone!), just for hair and fur.
The second point is, that if one doesn't think SAS, with it's limitations, is worth $500 for, as you say, "GOOD ENOUGH"...you have NO OPTIONS, aside from going to another MAJOR competitor. Sure, you may have to spend more...but heck, since we have to "spend more" any way, why not just leave and go with a package that HAS SOME OPTIONS. Not having any other option than SAS is the big sticking point with me. If we had Ornatrix or Shave N Haircut for say $150-$295 there wouldn't be many people asking Newtek about this subject.
But then we have guys like yourself...and it seems with Newtek's silence...as well as Worley's refusing to answer questions about furture upgrades and compatiblitiy with 9 and the 64bit platform...telling us essentially, "If you don't like it, LEAVE."
I'm afraid that's just about what I'm prepared to do.


I do agree with you and well I guess this is a future request then.....I should have posted this in the Future Requests..
Thank you for the honesty... I guess I will keep on wishing we had it, I wish we had it..:cursin:

Michael

kopperdrake
02-28-2006, 04:40 PM
I could point out that there's a feature request thread, though one would hate to be churlish.

You liar! That's as churlish as a churlish thing could be...perhaps even churlier! You uber-churl ;D

Can you tell I've had a good day :D

RedBull
03-01-2006, 07:30 PM
I don't know if this the right place for this..

But I was reading an article that Cinema4D has a new Hair generator that does hair, and a few other things, wow...

Newtek come on, everybody else has the Hair generator now, except Lightwave????


Well not everybody has a Hair Plugin at all actually....
In fact i think 3D studio Max, is the only software to include a hair plugin.

Lightwave does have SasLite, which means it's one of the few inexpensive
3D Applications that actually DOES have a hair solution....

Cinema4D does not include a HAIR it's a $395 option....
compared to Sasquatches $499 option.....

Maya and XSI also have Hair/Fur in the Unlimited and Advanced versions only,
which means you pay a LARGE premium to have these included....
When you think about it LW has the only cheap hair solution....

Cinema4D would be the only real comparative product.
And i think C4D you need the studio bundle to compete with LW, and it's tons more expensive....

I think while a better solution for hair is needed, and should be found for LW.
Lightwave is likely better than the most of the competition as is now...
when it comes to some kind of fur/grass/hair system really.

PS i think the Ornatrix plugin for C4D, is SOoooo much crapper than SasFull.

Lamont
03-01-2006, 07:44 PM
Why make sposts like this? Use software that gets the job done...

C4D is $3,390 w/hair and other things to bring it up to LW's level.

I'd rather buy LW for $895 and get Sas for $500.. spend the rest on booze and women. But what works for me, may not work for you.

http://dammitja.net/graphics/wsv.gif

Mha8649
03-01-2006, 10:55 PM
The original poster wasn't spreading doom and gloom, but was hoping the software he's accustomed to would bring itself up to date with a, now standard, feature. If it's a needed feature for a LW user, they have 3 choices to make.
1) Suck it up and and pay up...for Sas..which is an inferior product, compared to Shave N Haircut and Ornatrix/Hairtrix

2) Pay up anyway and migrate to a major competitor that not only has Hair/Fur, but a number of other features, as you mentioned, are lacking in LW

3) or...ask Newtek to "Get on the Stick.".

Sounds like he chose the latter

I partialy agree I don't really care who makes the plug-in but I really am not trying to spend 500.00 on a hair tool that is already outdated... there are alot of nice tools out there and I am sure there will be new ones added for the lw program I just wish it would hurry up and be sooner instead of later.

silviotoledo
03-02-2006, 02:35 PM
Cinema 4D uses Joe Alter's engine inside

Xsi uses Joe Alter's engine inside

MAx 8 uses Joe Alter's engine inside

Maya has it's own hair system but have Shave and Hair Cut Plugin ( Joe Alter's) as option.


So the question is: WHY DON'T JOE BACK HIST SYSTEM FOR LIGHTWAVE AS ORIGINALLY?

Come on, let's send a few e-mails to Joe Asking him to back his plugin for lightwave.

his page: www.joealter.com

RedBull
03-02-2006, 03:47 PM
Cinema 4D uses Joe Alter's engine inside
Xsi uses Joe Alter's engine inside
MAx 8 uses Joe Alter's engine inside
Maya has it's own hair system but have Shave and Hair Cut Plugin ( Joe Alter's) as option.
So the question is: WHY DON'T JOE BACK HIST SYSTEM FOR LIGHTWAVE AS ORIGINALLY?

Come on, let's send a few e-mails to Joe Asking him to back his plugin for lightwave.

his page: www.joealter.com

Joe's engine is not used for the HAIR plugin for C4D.

Joe stopped development on the LW version, because his
requests for SDK enhancements and bug fixes were being ignored...
The only difference is now NT ignore people twice as much as back then.

Ornatrix, HAIR, Blender, and Sasquatch are all using custom engines...

And i'd like to see NT make better SDK access for Sasquatch II....
And add a few Particle Hair services to Layout/Modeler to use with it..

XSI FND, and Essentials, has a hair plugin in development....
If this is released soon, LW will look a lot less attractive....
XSI FND with a cheap good Hair plugin will sell like hotcakes...

Pavlov
03-02-2006, 04:05 PM
i'd like a fiber generator to be "included", too - i'd use it mostly for grass and vegetation.
BUT... not in the base price.
Let remember LW costs a little, imho too little.
If we all want it to stay ahead and take back to its glories, we should remember that this means people working at it. Possibly, a lot of people.
So i'm scared from the idea of having ALL in a base price.
Dont mention XSI, they earn a lot of money from the very coslty high-end bundle which big studios use.
LW has not such an option, and offering all into a basic price would be foolish.
So, do we need grass ? Yes.
Given LW pricing, is it correct to ask for it as "integrated" ? Imho, no.
Let NT do a separate bundle, as i'd like them to do with hi-end GI engine and other stuff. Let LW be a good core with all needed average tools, and let people with specific needs buy things they need.
BTW, i dont care i f NT or a 3rd party developer does it; anyway i'm of the opinion that tools developed side by side with newtek works better than isolated 3rd party tools. So hope NT takes some important deals with Worley, Wtools, pictrix, Mindberries (Kray), and so on, to let them develop tehir tools in a more integrated, communicative way.

Paolo

Mha8649
03-02-2006, 04:12 PM
Like I said in my previous statement I really dont care who makes the new hair plugin. If newtek heck let them raise the price of lw an extra 500.00 thats what it would cost to get sasquatch. And if it's done by a 3rd party cool I will give them my money. I just want a hair program that isnt outdated.
:D

Parthius
03-02-2006, 04:38 PM
I'd just like some sort of hair support in LW64. Worley clearly isn't interested in recompiling for 64 bit. One can only hope that Newtek will wake up to that issue. I only bought LW because LW64 had been announced, now it turns out to be a whole lot less capable then LW8.5. I guess I'll wait and see on LW9 (since it's paid for), but no hair for the 64bit version of 9 and I'll be shopping for something else.

kopperdrake
03-02-2006, 05:12 PM
nope - nope...not going to do it...

...mustn't say it...

..aaghhh...

...<bites lip>...

DOOOM GLOOOM DOOOM!!

<ahem>

;)

AbnRanger
03-02-2006, 05:15 PM
nope - nope...not going to do it...

...mustn't say it...

..aaghhh...

...<bites lip>...

DOOOM GLOOOM DOOOM!!

<ahem>

;)Yeah..being ignored kind of does that to folks

kopperdrake
03-02-2006, 05:24 PM
Different team, different attitude? Let's hope so :)

silviotoledo
03-03-2006, 06:40 AM
Shave and haircut did a beauty job on King Kong and is the best plugin I've seem for hair development. Lightwave must open a door to it once sasquatch is a little bit old....

lardbros
03-23-2006, 10:46 AM
Just got the new 3dworld magazine and they review 2... YES TWO more hair plugins for Cinema4d!!

One's called the most ingenious name for a hair plugin yet... "Hair", and costs 220 +VAT and got a staggering score of TEN out of TEN in 3dworld. Bloody-nora!

the other is called Fast&Fur 1.45 and costs 52... WHAT!!! 52 QUIDS?? Now that's surely a printing mistake? Nope, it's 52... and got a pretty decent score of EIGHT out of 10!! Now this is getting a bit embarrassing... us with Saslite, and Sasquatch even looking dated now without its real-time previewing etc that every half-decent hair solution includes!

Sorry about resurrecting this thread, just thought it was interesting to add to this convo!

Lamont
03-23-2006, 10:53 AM
I am sure there is going to be a sweet update to Sas, just a matter of when.

stevecullum
03-23-2006, 05:06 PM
From what I've seen on the Newtek site, like loads of cool new features that are coming during the LW9 cycle, instancing, nodes, APS etc.. I would think Newtek knows Lightwave's short comings and seem to be on the right track to fixing things. Naturally they can't tackle everyting at once, but I have confidence in the new team and I'm sure the countless requests for a new hair system hasn't escaped their attention!

I switched to using Maya beacuse of all the great features, but found it so much work to get anything done, so back with LW and happy. The grass is never quite as green as you think - I for one am sticking around!

Titus
03-23-2006, 07:13 PM
Joe Alter was asking for LW programmers to port his program, I don't know what happened but now he doesn't have plans for this to happen.

lardbros
03-24-2006, 02:50 AM
Joe Alter doesn't even have plans to develop the Cinema4d version of Shave and Haircut anymore, so us LW users have no chance!

Cageman
03-24-2006, 03:18 AM
Hmm.. that Joe Alter guy... he seems to either have a huge ego, or been misstreated by companies on a very personal level. He is a good developer, sad to see things like this happen, whatever reason. :/

lardbros
03-24-2006, 03:32 AM
Hmm.. that Joe Alter guy... he seems to either have a huge ego, or been misstreated by companies on a very personal level. He is a good developer, sad to see things like this happen, whatever reason. :/

Hmmm, i dunno, i personally think it would be along the lines of being offered a TONNE of money from Autodesk/Alias to keep it developed for their programs!

Pavlov
03-24-2006, 03:47 AM
Beside a personal disappointment for Autodesk's policies with products and users (years ago i worked in a large planning studio with several licenses, but their conditions were so bad and indisponent that i wont EVER buy an autodesk product), i dislike the idea of a microsoft-kinda company in 3D world.
Anyway, i havent seen recent implementations of shave but it looked pretty "fragmented". LW does need compact and powerful tools, so i put my hopes more in Worley. Given the high request, i guess there's something in development right now, and maybe not only from Worley's side.

Paolo