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gottsbett
02-22-2006, 04:07 PM
Ok darn it, Newtek is getting my money! I come here everyday to snoop around and check out what is going on with V9. I am getting excited I and don't even own Lightwave!

How much longer should I expect to wait until I can buy V9 with a nice printed manual to mark up, Highlight and carry with me wherever I go!

Yeah I know I could buy now and get some really cool extras, but I am still going to wait until all the programs I am interested in show all their new goodies.

I only reason I do not see me buying Lightwave is if Zbrush gets a full fledge animation app. I do not think that’s going to happen with 2.5 so I might as well say to you all…

It is nice to be aboard! Keep up the Good work Newtek!
:thumbsup:

hrgiger
02-22-2006, 04:11 PM
Well, if you buy now, you would be eligible to participate in the beta meaning you could play with Lightwave 9 right away. If you wait too long, you might not get the extras either.

Signal to Noise
02-22-2006, 04:17 PM
...Yeah I know I could buy now and get some really cool extras, but I am still going to wait until all the programs I am interested in show all their new goodies.
...


Really, with the Vue 5 & LWCAD offer you can't go wrong jumping on the proverbial wagon now. Apparently those deals are over when [9] ships and you'll be sorry if you don't act on it now.

Not sure what "other programs" you're waiting on but I'll wager you'll find that LightWave is still the best bang for one's buck right out of the box.

(ZBrush will co-habitate nicely with LightWave, too! ;) )

gottsbett
02-22-2006, 04:23 PM
I also am waiting for my Uncle Sam to send my yearly family buys the expensive stuff they wanted all year long check!

TheDude
02-22-2006, 06:58 PM
I'm waiting until the LW 9 vapourware turns into actual working code....and I'm not paying to see the "public" beta, do NT know what the word "public" means? Seems to be lots of talk from NT about how 9 will be the "springboard" for an all new singing and dancing version. Unfortunately they seem to be talking about adding stuff when they still haven't got many core workflow tools working very well yet. I fell for the marketing blurb with [8] not with 9.

hrgiger
02-22-2006, 07:20 PM
I'm waiting until the LW 9 vapourware turns into actual working code....and I'm not paying to see the "public" beta, do NT know what the word "public" means? Seems to be lots of talk from NT about how 9 will be the "springboard" for an all new singing and dancing version. Unfortunately they seem to be talking about adding stuff when they still haven't got many core workflow tools working very well yet. I fell for the marketing blurb with [8] not with 9.

Oh boy....

First of all, vaporware implies that there is nobody seeing the program except for the programmers and that they do not have a working version of the program and this is not the case. Every single person who is eligible for the upgrade to 9 when it ships is eligible to use the current version of Lightwave in the beta form.

Secondly, you're not paying to see the "public" beta, you're paying for a new version of Lightwave. I dont' need to mention what you get in addition to the upgrade. The beta itself is free.

And lastly, how do you know that Lightwave doesn't have many core workflow tools working very well yet? If you're not on the beta, you couldn't possibly know. And if you are on the beta, you couldn't talk about it. Have you bothered watching any of the demo videos for Lightwave 9 that showcase some of these new features which seem to work pretty well in the demos...?

prospector
02-22-2006, 07:23 PM
Newtek has never had vaporware, that's a nonsensical statement., I've been upgrading since ver 3 and also the Toasterboard and have never been under a 'ripped off' feeling except for the CG in ver1 and 2 of the VT, but that was fixed. And they wouldn't be showing actual videos of vaporware.

KillMe
02-22-2006, 07:59 PM
i'm a fan of pre upgrading - get loads of extras - take this lw 9 upgrade -

vue 5 infinite - now this is a great program but it was abit pricy considering i didn't need it for a job so i never would ahve got it but now its there and great tool and if a job comes along that needs massively vegitated landscapes i am ready to know and already know the program

lwcad - seen these tools around for ages and thought yeah that could be nice addition to modeler toolset but again never felt i needed them when asked to pay up but now i have them dear god i dont know how i lived without them some amazing tools in there almost worth the price of the upgrade by itself

so sure you dont want to buy vapourwave but should know by the generally smily faces running around this forum that there are happy people here and a good percentage of those people are beta testers - also the videos should give you some major clues to how much work has been done on lw 9 and the cools tools in it

i say jump - both feet

TheDude
02-23-2006, 04:29 AM
Surprise surprise, the usual comments about how wonderful LW is.....despite all it's problems......and how the user (me) is actually the problem.

No I haven't used LW9 but I have read the blurb and seen the LW9 videos.
The comment about Vapourware was directed at NT's blurb about how they know there's a "long road ahead" and that 9 is the first step. To me this means pay up now and by 9.9 you might have something "amazing".

Why should I have to pay to try 9 now or in the future?
If I want to try the latest version of XSi, Maya, Project Messiah, Modo etc.... I can at least download a free demo. In a month's time (or whenever LW9 appears) unless there is a free full function downloadable demo (anyone know if there is going to be?) I'm going to have to pay to upgrade in order to try it, which I had to do with [8].
I also saw the videos for IK booster...remember those. Has any of you ever got anything useable out of IK Booster (that you couldn't already do with the internal IK system)? I haven't.(In fact does anyone know how to use it? If so please send some tutorials to NewTek so they can put them up on the site, as they haven't put any useful ones up themselves). More blurb from NT that failed to deliver any real or useful upgrades to the flaky Character animation workflow. (Why do you think Messiah was able to sell software to people who already paid for the character animation system in LW!)

As far as problems with the core tools, I am of course referring to the version I do have [8] .5, from what I have been allowed to see of 9 (not having already paid up like a good drone) I don't see much improvement.

All 3D software has it's issues, what amazes me is how rabid LW users are regarding it's problems and anyone who mentions them. I know it has it's good points too, but I'm not hoping those will change am I so why talk about them regarding 9.

NewTek need to show the "public" how great 9 is going to be. A "public" beta where no one is allowed to speak in "public" to members of the "public" is hardly a good approach. In fact it makes me think they have something to hide....

digital verve
02-23-2006, 04:43 AM
[QUOTE=TheDude]
If I want to try the latest version of XSi, Maya, Project Messiah, Modo etc.... I can at least download a free demo. In a month's time (or whenever LW9 appears) unless there is a free full function downloadable demo (anyone know if there is going to be?) /QUOTE]

Taken from the FAQ:

http://www.newtek.com/lightwave/lw9_faq.php

Will there be a LightWave v9 demo version available via download?

Yes. Once we have completed the release of LightWave v9, we plan to make a downloadable demo version available. Unlike previous LightWave 3D demos, this version will be time-limited, rather than feature limited, allowing those interested in taking LightWave 3D for a test drive to realize the full potential of the application. More details of this new offering will be posted as they are made available.

The videos look convincing to me but currently only those Beta testing can know for sure at the moment. Shame they can't talk about it. Anyway, at long last Newtek are finally going to release a proper demo for download.

TheDude
02-23-2006, 04:52 AM
Thanks M8

Hopefully they'll make the demo available sooner rather than later.

BazC
02-23-2006, 06:02 AM
I only reason I do not see me buying Lightwave is if Zbrush gets a full fledge animation app. I do not think that’s going to happen with 2.5 so I might as well say to you all…

Don't hold your breath! ZBrush 2.5 was announced in Nov 2004 and there's still no sign of it! It apparently has a load of amazing new features but I've not heard that animation is one of them. Given the way ZBrush works (2.5 d instead of full 3d) I suspect you will never see full animation like you have in lightwave unless they change the app completely! In ZBrush the camera is fixed and the object rotates scales etc. You can only have one object (or grouped object at a time) the rest is 2.5d images, how is that going to work with animation!?

Get Lightwave and add ZBrush later!

hrgiger
02-23-2006, 11:55 AM
Surprise surprise, the usual comments about how wonderful LW is.....despite all it's problems......and how the user (me) is actually the problem.

Every app has it's problems. And at least you've identified the actual problem in this instance.


No I haven't used LW9 but I have read the blurb and seen the LW9 videos.
The comment about Vapourware was directed at NT's blurb about how they know there's a "long road ahead" and that 9 is the first step. To me this means pay up now and by 9.9 you might have something "amazing".

Newtek's comments about how there is a long road ahead and this is the first step refers to the fact that Lightwave's core has been rewritten over the 8.x cycle and LW9 is the result of that restructuring. It has nothing to do with how "amazing" or un-"amazing" Lightwave 9 is. It's hardly vaporware as it's in the hands of all those who choose to participate in the beta program.


Why should I have to pay to try 9 now or in the future?

You don't have to.


If I want to try the latest version of XSi, Maya, Project Messiah, Modo etc.... I can at least download a free demo. In a month's time (or whenever LW9 appears) unless there is a free full function downloadable demo (anyone know if there is going to be?) I'm going to have to pay to upgrade in order to try it, which I had to do with [8].

Well, this has already been addressed but you're perfectly welcome to wait and try the demo version of 9. Of course, you will miss out on LWCAD and the VUE5 offer, which may or may not matter to you. There is also no guarantee that you will be able to get Lightwave as inexpensive as it is going for now.


I also saw the videos for IK booster...remember those. Has any of you ever got anything useable out of IK Booster (that you couldn't already do with the internal IK system)? I haven't.(In fact does anyone know how to use it? If so please send some tutorials to NewTek so they can put them up on the site, as they haven't put any useful ones up themselves). More blurb from NT that failed to deliver any real or useful upgrades to the flaky Character animation workflow. (Why do you think Messiah was able to sell software to people who already paid for the character animation system in LW!)

If you happen to speak german, there's a tutorial here on IKBooster:
http://www.exhibitionlevel.com/v002/tutorials.html

Larry Shultz has a video for IKBooster on his site for $25
http://www.3dtrainingonline.com/

Dan Ablan has a free video on IKBooster from his training series here:
http://3dgarage.com/3D%20GARAGE/Free%20Training.html

Newtek has a pdf file on IKBooster here:
http://www.newtek.com/lightwave/tutorials/animation/2IKBooster/index.php

As far as the character animation in Lightwave, there are a lot of us, me included, who are wanting to see some major improvements. Jay Roth has stated that some big improvements are slated for character animation tools in Lightwave. We'll just have to wait and see what happens over the course of the 9.x cycle.
And messiah. You'll notice that it's not just made for Lightwave users. So by your logic, every program that can utilize Messiah in it's workflow must have something wrong with their character animation tools if it's users are buying it. I've tried the demo of messiah because I wanted more out of Lightwave's animation system. Messiah has got a lot of great features, unfortunatley, it's interface and workflow don't appeal to me. Perhaps you should consider the idea that personal taste has a lot to do with what software people use.



NewTek need to show the "public" how great 9 is going to be. A "public" beta where no one is allowed to speak in "public" to members of the "public" is hardly a good approach. In fact it makes me think they have something to hide....

Um, obviously they have nothing to hide since there are hundreds, possibly more, "public" users using it. Don't be sour, just because you haven't decided to upgrade. Hmmm, perhaps Newtek thinks it gives motivation to upgrade. Every company does it, it's called marketing and promotion. I go to a "public" pool. I still have to pay to get in.
The term public in this case refers to the fact that any member of the "public" that chooses to participate (or in other words, people who have chosen to upgrade to the most recent version of Lightwave), can. For you to try and argue what the term "public" means, it's just a senseless matter of semantics.

Signal to Noise
02-23-2006, 12:31 PM
Sounds like TheDude pees in the aforementioned public pools. :grumpy:

jeremyhardin
02-23-2006, 12:52 PM
Sounds like TheDude pees in the aforementioned public pools. :grumpy:
is that a bad thing?? should I not do that??
;)

RedBull
02-23-2006, 01:00 PM
Surprise surprise, the usual comments about how wonderful LW is.....despite all it's problems......and how the user (me) is actually the problem.

NewTek need to show the "public" how great 9 is going to be. A "public" beta where no one is allowed to speak in "public" to members of the "public" is hardly a good approach. In fact it makes me think they have something to hide....

I do totally agree with your last point, having a public beta of enticpated software, is a great chance for NT to show of their efforts and impress their customers.... But scaring people with NDA's and making them overely protective of the release, is not going to do them any favours....

I know many long term LW customers who have not upgraded as yet...
And don't plan to until they seem some actual stuff from LW9...
They were kinda stung with LW8....

There first question about the Beta were, can i ask a few questions on the forum to Beta testers about LW9 Beta...... Which can't be done......

I saw several people post the exact same "Oh, well i can't ask people about features, how do i know i want the feature? type posts..... Seems a bit silly.

As for the LWDemo, yes it does need a well public demo.....
I would prefer a non-time limited version, because for developers
they need a test version of LW.... One that's not locked out, 12 days later.

hrgiger
02-23-2006, 01:15 PM
How hard is it to see the good behind the beta program?

Beta. You know, that software that isn't quite ready to ship yet. If there was no beta program, none of us would know a thing about Lightwave 9 except what they chose to disclose or what Proton would show us in a video. Since the release of 9 has been delayed temporarily, normally, everyone would be very impatient, demanding to know what was going on, when is it going to be ready, what can you tell us.....

Except now for the first time, Newtek has provided us with a open beta program for all those qualified(shock and horror, you actually have to upgrade or buy Lightwave 9). A lot of us are now able to test out the software, experiment with the new features, even before the software is ready to ship and at the same time, provide feedback on the development of the software.

There is no big conspiracy. There is no big top secret, code red, cloak and dagger, James Bond hooplah going on. Scaring people with an NDA? Puh-leez. I'm guessing that all the people who are bound by the NDA in the beta program are glad to be on that side of the fence and could care less what everyone else knows. Besides, NDA's aren't uncommon for beta testers.

It just sounds like some people are bitter that they are not privy to the same information for those of us who have chosen to participate.

EmperorPete
02-23-2006, 01:20 PM
Well said, hrgiger. The Beta is open to anyone who has PAID for LW9. We're making sure the app is stable enough for release, and that it works properly; or perhaps TheDude thinks apps write themselves.
And I hardly call the NDA scary; it's a standard practice for this sort of thing. I mean, really; NT are hardly going to sit there and say "hey, show EVERYONE what we've got cooking!", are they? And why SHOULD they?
Bottom line: if you want to see what LW9 can do, order it and try out the beta. Contribute with the rest of us. If you want to wait and get the demo when it's released, that's also fine. But don't start whining about how you don't know what's going on when you have the opportunity to know as much as anyone else staring you in the face, replete with free gifts.
Yeesh.

hrgiger
02-23-2006, 01:23 PM
Bottom line: if you want to see what LW9 can do, order it and try out the beta.

Oh, there you go. You opened a can of worms there. People hate it when you give em the bottom line. Especially when it's the stinging truth, not at all unlike this particular instance for example....

Cageman
02-23-2006, 02:06 PM
There first question about the Beta were, can i ask a few questions on the forum to Beta testers about LW9 Beta...... Which can't be done......

Hmm.. isn't there a special section here at NT-forum where BETA-testers can post questions and talk about LW9... ? Of course, only BETA-testers may have access to the forum...

gottsbett
02-23-2006, 04:11 PM
As a possible new user ready to buy I do not like the NDA. I want to know what I am getting into. As for buying now I just can not bring myself to do it in fear that Zbrush gets some thing that blows my mind, plus I am still thinking about hair and will I want it. If that is the case then I will be stopping over at Maxon's site. As of right now you cannot really tell me if there is hair or not. So I wait.
Lightwave looks awesome, but all the others have demos. I downloaded 7.5 update but is that really a good example? So I wait!
A lot of people have told me to get XSI and hope someone ports a more affordable hair. With XSI I have what really matters a great render. I wait!

This is my first big step into big boy territory. Away from free stuff and cheap stuff. I want to get it right so I ask and wait!

edit in...
I know about Sasquatch it is out dated!

prospector
02-23-2006, 04:41 PM
As a possible new user ready to buy I do not like the NDA. I want to know what I am getting into.

you got 7.5
Look at the Newtek FTP and see the vids for 8 then look at the vids for 9
you got a massive bullitin board that goes back to 6? or 7.5.
There are many many tuts about 8 that are free...they show you whats in 8.

There are plenty of examples of the newer versions than you have.

Do homework. Protons Ver 9 vids show you just what is suppose to come in 9.
And they keep adding them as more and more stuff gets worked out.

gottsbett
02-23-2006, 05:10 PM
Trust me I am doing my homework.:)

cresshead
02-23-2006, 05:56 PM
whilst yourt waiting...go n try the 30 days demo's of:-

and try em one after another......

3dsmax 8.0 [march]
xsi 5.0 [april]

maya ple [june]
cinema4d demo [july]

lightwave 7.5 discovery version
..august!

then when siggraph is over [august]
go n buy a 3d app from all your demo's....:thumbsup:

kopperdrake
02-23-2006, 06:50 PM
It is nice to be aboard! Keep up the Good work Newtek!
:thumbsup:

Well, if you decide to buy it then welcome onboard...there are worse ships to be sailing on I'm sure :D

And If you don't buy it, then...Gottsbett? Who? Nope...no bells ringing here...

;)

colkai
02-24-2006, 02:51 AM
Well said, hrgiger. The Beta is open to anyone who has PAID for LW9. We're making sure the app is stable enough for release
Indeed, as it the job of any Beta tester.
I happen to know some people who Beta test programs for other companies, trust me, every one of them is under NDA, it's a standard business practice.

If I was developing a new system I would make darn usre anyone beta testing had signed an NDA.

colkai
02-24-2006, 02:56 AM
As a possible new user ready to buy I do not like the NDA. I want to know what I am getting into.
Then may I suggest you wait until LW9 is released to the public?
Do you wish to know what other companies are developing right now that they may release and you may buy?
If you want LW now then look at the current version, (LW8.5) and decide if it is what you want.
If you think you may like the look of LW9s features, wait until it is released then decide if you wish to buy it, heck, you'll probably even be able to download a demo of it to test before parting with your money.

To suggest that you somehow have the right to have access to unreleased software simply based on the fact you may buy it is mind-boggling.

kopperdrake
02-24-2006, 03:12 AM
[QUOTE=RedBull] saw several people post the exact same "Oh, well i can't ask people about features, how do i know i want the feature? type posts..... Seems a bit silly.QUOTE]

You *don't* know you want the new features. You never know what you're going to get in the next release of Adobe Photoshop, Premiere, even Max as far as I know. Sure you get rumours, spec lists, but as with all software companies there's a small disclaimer at the end of any pre-gold release list. You buy the software when it's released if you want to see a rock-solid spec list.

Newtek allowed us to pre-buy and gave flavoursome goodies in return - you don't want the goodies? You don't buy the upgrade. You get sorely miffed at an overspill time-wise? Don't pre-buy something you can't see.

Upshot is, yes they're a bit late. Is that unheard of with software? Not at all. Will it be worth it? I think so - using this software every day for my living makes me want a stable product (which it is atm). Plus this is a fundamental change in Lightwave - Rome wasn't built in an grueling week-long deadline gut-buster. Do I begrudge them my money since last year? Not a penny of it - I know I'll get software upgrades for the next year on top of the final release.

colkai
02-24-2006, 03:12 AM
Looks like this guy wasn't banned from this forum to post as I was.
..And so your first posting is a negative stance on the next release of LW and insulting not just Newtek but the Lightwave users.

Way to ensure you're already on the slippery slope guy.
If you have such issues with LW and Newtek, may I suggest you don't bother posting here? You must surely be capable of seeing where it will lead.

kopperdrake
02-24-2006, 03:17 AM
Oops - just realised Colkai posted similar points, there I go getting miffed I didn't even get as far as you dude.

FWIW He's so right about NDAs. You want to work on games where it's your job on the line if you spill the beans before it's common knowledge what you're developing for - with access to franchise tie-in movies a year or two before release you can see why.

kopperdrake
02-24-2006, 03:18 AM
Oi Colkai - you're doing it again - *I* wanted to berate him in a firm but kindly manner ;)

I've got to learn to read without my finger following the words on the screen...

colkai
02-24-2006, 03:48 AM
Oi Colkai - you're doing it again - *I* wanted to berate him in a firm but kindly manner ;)
Ahh, well, you know me ;)


I've got to learn to read without my finger following the words on the screen...
I know what you mean hehe...
Don't you find it makes a lot of smear marks doing that? :p

kopperdrake
02-24-2006, 04:34 AM
rofl - so true :D

You know, when I used to pass all the turned off screens I could tell which belonged to programmers, and which to artists. The programmers' screens had vertical and horizontal smudges where they followed the code, the artists had random smudges where someone over their shoulder said 'I LIKE THAT ONE' <splodge>

colkai
02-24-2006, 04:42 AM
the artists had random smudges where someone over their shoulder said 'I LIKE THAT ONE' <splodge>
Gawd, tell me about it, I've just got a nice 19" LCD and da wife is forever prodding it. It's nearly started some fights I can tell you. :p
"Will you NOT do that, you DON'T have to press the screen", "well, there's no need to shout" hehe....

It's even funnier when she catches herself just before touching the screen, gives me the evil "sidways" glance as if to say "I'm NOT going to touch it" ;)

starbase1
02-24-2006, 05:35 AM
I must be the only person hoping it does NOT appear in the next couple of days! (Waiting for this years bonus to come through before I can afford it...)

I am a bit dubious about the bonus software though - LW Cad seemed to produce a flood of very basic questions and 'why does it' type stuff...

Vue 5 is very good value - if you are going to use it. I bought Vue 4 and really could not get on with it, I found the interface incredibly confusing, and also very difficult to get a good sense of scale. Not as good as Terragen for skies, not as good as the ancient Vistapro for animation. But maybe its a style thing - I hate blobs on knobs interfaces.

Personally I am twitching for Terragen 2 for landscape work.

But there does seem to be a LOT of intriguing stuff in LW 9, quite apart from any improvements in the core for future upgrades.

And personally I can't see why anyone whould view this as a fudge given Newtek's track record - they have a good history of point releases with genuinely useful stuff in, not just bug fixes.

Nick

Albertdup
02-24-2006, 05:38 AM
I wonder if the people who are complaining about LW9 are also complaining about Windows Vista, I mean it's also in beta, years behind schedule, has very little driver support and you will need some serious hardware just to run the os. Snippets and screen shots gets posted on the web, but I havened heard of anyone going all bunkers because the beloved start button has been changed three times in the development cycle. And no one really knows what they will be getting in the end.

Bog
02-24-2006, 06:01 AM
Gottsbett,

It's exciting, isn't it? LW's always been a really strong toolset, and from the demo videos we can see that it's getting some serious extra pro-grade grunt on top of the previous version's performance. I really hope FPrime comes out for 9, including the Nodal stuff, very close it it's release - I'd hate to have a gaping hole in my toolchain!

Regarding the naysayers.... It's nice to see that the long-standing tradition of making well-informed commentary about things is being maintained.... :rolleyes:

Kurtis
02-24-2006, 06:09 AM
I'm not familiar with any time we referred to it as a "public" beta. As far as I remember, we've always referred to it as an "open" beta, but I could be wrong. Semantics aside, although there are always going to be exceptions, "open" or "public" beta are rarely used to refer to beta programs that are open for everyone to try and for everyone to discuss. They refer to beta programs where users that do not normally have access to the developer's beta program are given the opportunity to participate in the process. And that is exactly what we've done with our open beta offering.

As to questions about a demo version, we have already answered this question numerous times, on multiple forums and on our website. From the LightWave v9 FAQ located at http://www.newtek.com/lightwave/lw9_faq.php:

Will there be a LightWave v9 demo version available via download?
Yes. Once we have completed the release of LightWave v9, we plan to make a downloadable demo version available. Unlike previous LightWave 3D demos, this version will be time-limited, rather than feature limited, allowing those interested in taking LightWave 3D for a test drive to realize the full potential of the application. More details of this new offering will be posted as they are made available.
Money is a concern for everyone, and not everyone is going to be interested in Vue 5 and LWCAD. If you feel that your money is better spent by waiting to try a demo version before buying, we can appreciate your position and welcome you to do so. However, it doesn't make sense to release a demo version of a product before it has been finalized for release. Trial users should be given the opportunity to get an accurate idea of how the final shipping software functions, in order to make an informed decision.

jeremyhardin
02-24-2006, 08:55 AM
nice sig kurtis. isn't that what you're supposed to say to calm down? ;) now why ever would you be putting that in your sig? :D

Signal to Noise
02-24-2006, 11:43 AM
I wonder if the people who are complaining about LW9 are also complaining about Windows Vista, ...

Nah, we just complain about Windows in general. ;)

gottsbett
02-24-2006, 12:47 PM
I am glad Proton puts up a video a day. that really keeps my interest.

Kurtis
02-24-2006, 03:11 PM
nice sig kurtis. isn't that what you're supposed to say to calm down? ;) now why ever would you be putting that in your sig? :D

Gee, I wonder..... :D

Bog
02-24-2006, 04:46 PM
Gouranga.

And again.

Gouranga.

(strangely, this is what I call my cat Gouraud when he's in need of a cuddle)