PDA

View Full Version : Node based texturing....I want one....NOW please.



Verlon
02-10-2006, 06:39 PM
I pre-ordered LW9. I have helped old ladies cross the street. I have cleaned up my language. I even ate all my vegetables....

I DESERVE node based texturing in Lightwave.

If I change my system clock to 14 February and give my girl a box of chocolate, can I have the LW9 beta PLEASE????? right now please.....

Thor Simpson
02-10-2006, 07:45 PM
Apparently NewTek is doing things right these days. :)

I think they were all along, they were just behind schedule of where they thought they would be. But now that 9 is nearing... yeah, nice work NewTek. :thumbsup:

Anticipation is in the air.

Kuzey
02-10-2006, 08:07 PM
Yeah, Lightwave seems to have come of age...can't wait to see the stuff that get's into v9.+ and beyond!!

You could always camp outside Newteks office :D

Kuzey

hrgiger
02-10-2006, 08:50 PM
I think Morgan Freeman said it best in Shawshank Redemption...

"I find I am so excited I can barely sit still or hold a thought in my head. I think it is the excitement only a free man can feel, a free man at the start of a long journey whose conclusion is uncertain... I hope I can make it across the border. I hope to see my friend and shake his hand. I hope Lightwave 9 is as good as these new demo videos promise. I hope."

Gettarobox
02-10-2006, 09:01 PM
if node based texturing in lightwave is so important that you would give up 3 or 4 days of your life for it just download TB's shadertree. the site is in japanese as is the manual but once you start the plugin it is all in english.
http://home.att.ne.jp/omega/tabo/3dlabo/p_lwp.html

Tesselator
02-11-2006, 06:59 AM
if node based texturing in lightwave is so important that you would give up 3 or 4 days of your life for it just download TB's shadertree. the site is in japanese as is the manual but once you start the plugin it is all in english.
http://home.att.ne.jp/omega/tabo/3dlabo/p_lwp.html


I hear people saying this allot and I would like to express that there really is no
comparrison between the two systems. Durring the development of the new
system in LW I was in contact with the developer of the TB tree (I live in Japn)
and he will be the first one to tell you that the node editor and his shader
tree don't share much in common past the fact that the GUIs are kinda similar.

The LW systems is not just a nodal gui wrapper for the existing LW textures like
his is. The LW9 system supports shading models, TB's does not! The LW9
system has actual texture nodes, his does not! In the LW9 system you can
affect a texture with a texture - in TB you cannot! Int eh LW9 system you
have Function Nodes so that all the textures can be modified to become
completely different textures, noting like that exists in TB.

The LW9 system is the very best there is in terms of functionality, sofistication,
and usability - for LW at any price! Furthermore because of the way it has been
implimented into the LW9 system it overtakes the more famous XSI system so now
we can truely say that LW9 has one of the best if not THEE best node editing
systems in the industry!!!

I feel very qualified in making these remarks having taught both XSI, and LW
at University level here in Japan. LW for 8 years and XSI for 3.

Comparring LW9 to TB's shadertree is not EVEN appropriate! ;) I realize that
you may just have been commenting out of Verlon's enthusiasm but others
here and elsewhere have been making allot of mistakes in this reguard.

With the new camera tools and node editor NewTek did some things right!

Let's give them their due?!!!

Verlon
02-11-2006, 07:15 AM
hmmm......
pre-rodered LW9, helped old ladies to cross streets, cleaned up language, ate vegetables...and offered to reset my system clock and give my girl chocolate for Valentine's Day (and she already got a diamond ring this month so that will have to do). Nowhere do I see any mention of offering to shave time off my life (that would be less time to play with node based surfacing in LW, so where is the fun in that).

It might take YOU 4 days to change your system clock, but I can do it in about 20 seconds.... :P

Nemoid
02-11-2006, 07:20 AM
Hey Tess. having seen the video i can say the node system plain rocks.
The UI was also efficient and functional. happy to hear it opens a whole lot of new possibilities for texturing in Lw.
I also like the fact we actually have both systems at our disposal. classic for normal tasks, nodal for refining/ kick *** work. :thumbsup:

KillMe
02-11-2006, 07:33 AM
asked this over at spinquds but kurtis didn't seem to know wondering if you did tesselator

i see a displacement option in the surface node - does that mean displacement is now surface based not object based? and that displacement will be controled from withing the surface editor?

also on the top bar is says shaders per surface so if i want 2 surfaces to share the same node structure do i have to copy and paste it to another surface or can i create 2 surfaces and say a displacement node structure etc within the 1 node editor?

Gettarobox
02-11-2006, 09:08 AM
The LW systems is not just a nodal gui wrapper for the existing LW textures like his is.
Tess- Have you used shadertree? I may be noobish in this area but I find there to be way more to it than a simple gui wrapper. for example, there are math functions, operators, controllable vector assignment, etc... ( how would you do this in the current system?)

I realize LW9's shader nodes will completely trounce Shader Tree (just having real time updating on the nodes as you work make it worth it practically), but let's not undermine some awesome plugins that currently exist.

I already have ordered LW9 like a year ago, so I guess it really doesn't matter to me.

Bytehawk
02-11-2006, 09:16 AM
believe me, there is NO nodal based shading system that comes close to the LW one. You can't even compare shader tree with what's in LW9. The feel of the UI alone is just soooo much smoother, it clearly ROCKS HARD !!!!

sorry, can't give more in depth details, I'm too excited 'nodal' finally sees the light of day.

Gettarobox
02-11-2006, 10:04 AM
i think i may have just figured out why the surface shader part of the nodes would be so great.
please correct me if i'm wong.
with the new node based systems ability to use surfaces in the node system you could break a head up into different surfaces and then procedurally create a bump for each area and then create a color gradient based of the various bumps on the various surfaces which would unify them in color but have the various bumps remain in place?
i practically confused my self writing that so i understand if no one can figure out wth i'm talking about.
i'll try to match the idea in shader tree and then tuesday i'll try it in lw9 beta.

*edit nevermind. i can do this already in 8.5 with a bit more work and not so great results.


where can one learn where to understand how to use node based editors and their many features?

wacom
02-11-2006, 10:53 AM
TB's shadertree is great for the money...but you'd be silly not to agree with Tess. As to the power VS. XSI's tree...I'm not so sure, but I am sure after even seeing the simple demo video that it even more logical, and easier to use. In a way that makes it more powerful for 99% of users. I know I haven't even used the darn thing yet...and Tess is like kissing cousins with the people who developed it or something...but just seeing how the nodes logically connect in the ways THEY SHOULD with fewer "extra" nodes than XSI made me really happy. It's not dumbed down- just smarter. I guess that's the advantage of youth though?

I can't wait to test it, but it looks like unlike XSI where useful things are often turned off by default in the tree in nodal they are ON. Oh man what a time saver/relief! Cool!:D

hairy_llama
02-11-2006, 11:05 AM
one thing you can do with a node system that is really awesome is
create two totally different precedural based textures. That work together.

Say, one is burnt volcanic rock and the other is light colored
beach sand.

You can create a third precedural that will composite the two
together based off of its luminance. So for example
in the "dips" of the rock you could have a totally
different sand texture... This is not possible with the
current layers system. Well, It is with simple textures,
but once you start layering and using Alphas and transfer
modes and displacement textures it can quickly become very difficult.
Or impossible.

I was doing this with that TB shadertree plugin.
Which tought me a lot about node based texturing and how
powerfull it can be.

Newtek included a ver simple shader plugin
that was supposed to allow this but
every time I have tried to use it with advanced textures
it comes out all wrong. In simple "tests" I have done it
allways worked... Just never seems to actually work in production.

Exception
02-11-2006, 11:11 AM
For those who have used lw's nodal system:
is there now FINALLY a way to make clip maps a surface property?
That annoys me to no end...

badllarma
02-11-2006, 11:30 AM
For those who have used lw's nodal system:
is there now FINALLY a way to make clip maps a surface property?
That annoys me to no end...


I REALLY hope clips maps are now per surface rather than per object.

hairy_llama
02-11-2006, 11:35 AM
"I REALLY hope clips maps are now per surface rather than per object."

So do I.

wacom
02-11-2006, 12:40 PM
I was really happy to see in the demo the fact that most nodes PPGs allow you to link attributes with envelopes! Yahoo! Then you can do things like have an arm bend and control a vein procedural or texture maps displacement that is masked off via a weight map and controlled by say the joint rotation! Pizzow! Cool!

I hope in the future that they allow you to save the settings of each node for future use. I'd also like it (and maybe we can already) rename nodes. It's useful for when your working in a group setting, teaching, or sharing examples on the web. That way people can "get your" flow better. So instead of just a node editor saying "incedence angle" it could be "incedence angle for frensel effect on outer glass surface" etc. Maybe they could at least allow comments on each node that would pop up if you hovered over the node for a second or two (kind of like tool tips).

Gettarobox
02-11-2006, 12:40 PM
well I am the type of person to test the hype rather than believe it right away and so I thought I would try to repeat the example shader node shown in the video using shadertree rather than LW9(obviously). I got to this point and decided I could probably achieve the rest but it would take as long for me to figure it out as it would to wait for 9.

Tesselator
02-11-2006, 01:03 PM
Hey Tess. having seen the video i can say the node system plain rocks.
The UI was also efficient and functional. happy to hear it opens a whole lot of new possibilities for texturing in Lw.
I also like the fact we actually have both systems at our disposal. classic for normal tasks, nodal for refining/ kick *** work. :thumbsup:

It opens a whole lot of new possiblitiies - yes... But not just for texturing! :D

Gettarobox
02-11-2006, 01:18 PM
i still must say though if you are going to have an anyeurism waiting for more power through nodes(as am I). shadertree seems to help.

Tesselator
02-11-2006, 01:29 PM
Gettarobox Wrote:
Tess- Have you used shadertree?


Of course I have. I whouldn't have commented if I hadden't. Additionally
I have discussed it's design with the creator.

I may be noobish in this area but I find there to be way more to it than a simple gui wrapper. for example, there are math functions, operators, controllable vector assignment, etc... ( how would you do this in the current system?)

Yes, he's got some cool math stuff in there. I'm not saying it's crap or
anything. For free it rocks! You just can't compare it to what is available
in LW9... Nor really even to the Nodal Ideas one. And yes I have used that
as well. NewTek feels that it is their obliged duty to know exactly what all
the other systems on the market have and are camable of. For the node
editing ssytem this duty was exercized exhaustively.

I realize LW9's shader nodes will completely trounce Shader Tree (just having real time updating on the nodes as you work make it worth it practically), but let's not undermine some awesome plugins that currently exist.


No, let's not. But let's be realistic at the same time. Let's understand the
systems we are commenting on before we comment on them. Right? Sounds
like a plan to me anyway. :D While it might not seem like a "wrapper" just
a few tests will reveal it's nature.

I already have ordered LW9 like a year ago, so I guess it really doesn't matter to me.

Ok, well it IS a big deal to the guys that worked on it I guess. I know it's
a source of pride to me for one. I guess it's important to anyone trying
to figure out if L9 is worth the price as well.

I dunno, I always take these forums so seriously. I should prolly lighten up
but I'm really into being as accurate as possible whenever I post in these
places so they can be used for a source of information and not become a
source of misinformation. There seems at first take anyway, to be a rather
unhealthy mix of opinion in with what should be factual. I'm not directing
that at you, that just a general observation - and of course there are theads
that should be all about opinions too - so that kinda makes it hard sometimes.

RedBull
02-11-2006, 01:59 PM
I hear people saying this allot and I would like to express that there really is no comparrison between the two systems. Durring the development of the new system in LW I was in contact with the developer of the TB tree (I live in Japn) and he will be the first one to tell you that the node editor and his shader tree don't share much in common past the fact that the GUIs are kinda similar.

The LW systems is not just a nodal gui wrapper for the existing LW textures like his is. The LW9 system supports shading models, TB's does not! The LW9
system has actual texture nodes, his does not! In the LW9 system you can
affect a texture with a texture - in TB you cannot! Int eh LW9 system you
have Function Nodes so that all the textures can be modified to become
completely different textures, noting like that exists in TB.

Can you clarify what supports shader models? Do you mean the new query shader class? If your talking shader models, TB Shadertree contains most if not more than the included shading models than that of Nodal, from the video.

Blinn, Lambert, Oren Nayer, Velvet, Cook-Torrence etc.... are all their and do exactly what they do in all Nodal based shading systems...

In term of functions, i note a dozen or more types of function operatiors
as well as illumination models, like ambient and occlussion.. and more blending moded etc all in TB Shadetree...... It would seem TB has numerours advantages.. I'm sure Nodal will also have it's advantages.....


The LW9 system is the very best there is in terms of functionality, sofistication, and usability - for LW at any price! Furthermore because of the way it has been implimented into the LW9 system it overtakes the more famous XSI system so now we can truely say that LW9 has one of the best if not THEE best node editing systems in the industry!!!

I feel very qualified in making these remarks having taught both XSI, and LW
at University level here in Japan. LW for 8 years and XSI for 3.

Comparring LW9 to TB's shadertree is not EVEN appropriate! ;) I realize that
you may just have been commenting out of Verlon's enthusiasm but others
here and elsewhere have been making allot of mistakes in this reguard.
With the new camera tools and node editor NewTek did some things right!
Let's give them their due?!!!

I think because none of us have used Nodal it may be hard to compare
TB Shadertree..... But apart from the SDK intergration and making
it a class rather than just a shader, i personally don't see much more there!

I would like to, but programs like XSI allow me to use Darktree with XSI's Mental Ray and be connected to a Nodal system..... Being one HUGE advantage with XSI's implementation.....

Lightwave 9 seems to of totally ignored requests for shader sharing to allow FPrime support more SDK features.... Honestly it's like Newtek when halfway, yet again...... I'm sure it will offer great benefits, but Clip Maps are another thing that seem to be absent, and contant feature requests.

I feel like if we couldnt make LW Shaders work with Fprime in 2 full versions, with a now decent development team, than we should of just scrapped previous LW, and started again, this parrallel changeover seems to be more hype than advantage..... So far....

Tesselator
02-11-2006, 02:00 PM
KillMe wrote:
asked this over at spinquds but kurtis didn't seem to know wondering if you did tesselator

Hi Killme, I'll try...

i see a displacement option in the surface node - does that mean displacement is now surface based not object based? and that displacement will be controled from withing the surface editor?


What you're seeing there is the bump displacement as usual. It is axial
displacement on a per surface basis but enabled and amplified by the
Enable Bump checkbox and corresponding "Distance" value in the object
properties panel. I'd like to say more about where and what nodes can
do but then I'd have to commit mass murder on anyone who read it. :D


also on the top bar is says shaders per surface so if i want 2 surfaces to share the same node structure do i have to copy and paste it to another surface or can i create 2 surfaces and say a displacement node structure etc within the 1 node editor?

Yes, the later. You can create one entire network that only affects a
specific channel or shading model and then also an entirely separate
network for any other channel including displaceent - and for all of the
available channels in any one surface - all in one "Node Edit" panel.

I named the surface "Shaders Per Surface" or something like that to match
the part of the video I was making. That title bar will display the name
of the surface - whatever it is. So that was me just being a little funky :D

jeremyhardin
02-11-2006, 02:19 PM
So Tess, you're saying that I can wire one shading tree into 10 surfaces on 10 objects?

Or do I have to create the tree and copy and paste it to multiple surfaces on multiple objects?

Tesselator
02-11-2006, 02:20 PM
Gettarobox wrote:
i think i may have just figured out why the surface shader part of the nodes would be so great.
please correct me if i'm wong.
with the new node based systems ability to use surfaces in the node system you could break a head up into different surfaces and then procedurally create a bump for each area and then create a color gradient based of the various bumps on the various surfaces which would unify them in color but have the various bumps remain in place?
i practically confused my self writing that so i understand if no one can figure out wth i'm talking about.
i'll try to match the idea in shader tree and then tuesday i'll try it in lw9 beta.

*edit nevermind. i can do this already in 8.5 with a bit more work and not so great results.


Yup, right on both accounts! What you can't do in LW8.5 that you can do in
9.0 is have different shading models per surface AND per surface attribute.
Like was shown in the video you can use different shading models for specularity,
diffuse, and etc. and even mix several shading models for one aspect such as
diffuse or whatever. Prior to LW9 there were no shaders available at all. The
plugins in the shader dropdown are not really shaders at all they rely on
trickery - like just writing to the color channel... So it was like trying to
write OrenNayar shading proberties inside of the standard LW Lambert and
well, that just doesn't work right. It messes up way too many properties of
the Oren/Nayar you're going for. This has been resolved in LW9 as you can
notice from the video.

YAY! Finally! Actuall shaders in LW! I'm totally stoked!



where can one learn where to understand how to use node based editors and their many features?

On Feb. 14th the LW public beta will be available. This would be a great
place to start! The initial documentation that you'll get for node editing
with the beta will be sparse but the release docs will be really sweet and
maybe the best node editing docs available for any system. Houdinin
from sidefx might be the only other one to mention here - for great and
understandable docs I mean - of course they expect a certian level of
expertise from thier users though. :p

MrWyatt
02-11-2006, 02:43 PM
You can all hate me, and say that it is not the case,


hate bryphi77.....check. done
ah, yeah, btw, it´s not the case.

:D

Tesselator
02-11-2006, 02:45 PM
RedBull
Can you clarify what supports shader models? Do you mean the new query shader class?

That makes no sense. What?

If your talking shader models, TB Shadertree contains most if not more than the included shading models than that of Nodal, from the video.

Blinn, Lambert, Oren Nayer, Velvet, Cook-Torrence etc.... are all their and do exactly what they do in all Nodal based shading systems...

Sorry, read my other post. LW prior to L9 does NOT support other shading
models other than Lambert (diffuse) and modified Blinn (specular). It never
has and other attempts to try and get the looks of other shaders have all
been very less than complete. If you want other shading models in LW
previous to LW9 you MUST render it outside of LW.

In term of functions, i note a dozen or more types of function operatiors
as well as illumination models, like ambient and occlussion.. and more blending moded etc all in TB Shadetree...... It would seem TB has numerours advantages.. I'm sure Nodal will also have it's advantages.....

Go ask the TB Shader tree author. He will tell you it has exactly zero
advantages over the system offered in LW9. 0!


I think because none of us have used Nodal it may be hard to compare
TB Shadertree..... But apart from the SDK intergration and making
it a class rather than just a shader, i personally don't see much more there!

Not "none of us". I have used it. ByteHawk has. that's two. So here is the
thing I was talking about with confusing opinion and fact. Shrug.

The rest of the post is the same. At least you deserve credit for starting off
your sentences with "I feel..." and "I think...". That's a good thing and to be
commended. I appreciate that.

Tesselator
02-11-2006, 02:50 PM
So Tess, you're saying that I can wire one shading tree into 10 surfaces on 10 objects?

Or do I have to create the tree and copy and paste it to multiple surfaces on multiple objects?


I'm not sure I understand the question. I was fairly specific in my prior post.
Please reread that and then rephrase the question. I'm not trying to be
difficult -I'm really having trouble understanding the question. In any case
I think a reread of my previous post will answer your question - I hope. :D

MrWyatt
02-11-2006, 02:56 PM
I think once open beta is running we should have a sticky thread in the beta forum to share our nodal adventures and shadertrees so that learning will be easier. After having used nodal shading in maya over 3 years now I know that it might be hard getting into it, but once you get a hang of it it's tough to go back to layers. trust me on that.

:yoda:

Tesselator
02-11-2006, 03:00 PM
I think once open beta is running we should have a sticky thread in the beta forum to share our nodal adventures and shadertrees so that learning will be easier. After having used nodal shading in maya over 3 years now I know that it might be hard getting into it, but once you get a hang of it it's tough to go back to layers. trust me on that.

:yoda:



I agree on all counts! About the layers and a sticky thread would be great!

jeremyhardin
02-11-2006, 03:01 PM
Say I have two objects in the scene. each of them has a different surface.

can I bring both surfaces into one Node Editor view and use one tree for both surfaces?

here's some photoshop trickery. 2 surfaces (or materials as XSI calls them). one shading tree going into both.

this doesn't work in XSI's tree view, but I wondered if you could have multiple surfaces on the same Nodal view at the same time and wire one thing into both surfaces.

does that make sense?

MrWyatt
02-11-2006, 03:06 PM
Say I have two objects in the scene. each of them has a different surface.

can I bring both surfaces into one Node Editor view and use one tree for both surfaces?

here's some photoshop trickery. 2 surfaces (or materials as XSI calls them). one shading tree going into both.

this doesn't work in XSI's tree view, but I wondered if you could have multiple surfaces on the same Nodal view at the same time and wire one thing into both surfaces.

does that make sense?

I guess it will not be possible as it is the nature of LW that scenefiles and objectfiles are separate and two different objects (i.e. different lwo files couldn't share nodes as the connection would only exist in the scene where both lwo files are existant. I haven't used nodal so I really don't know, but logically it shouldn`t be possible, as the two surfaces of different lwo files couldn't maintain that connection when they are outside the scene, i.e. when they are in modeler.

does that make sense?

jeremyhardin
02-11-2006, 03:09 PM
yes, but the current surface editor has a scene mode, where object sharing the same name are edited as one (even though they span different object files).

i see the dilemma with what I'm asking, though.

MrWyatt
02-11-2006, 03:12 PM
yes, but the current surface editor has a scene mode, where object sharing the same name are edited as one (even though they span different object files).



still changes to a surfaces have to be saved in the objectfile and not the scenefile.

wacom
02-11-2006, 03:18 PM
Say I have two objects in the scene. each of them has a different surface.

can I bring both surfaces into one Node Editor view and use one tree for both surfaces?

here's some photoshop trickery. 2 surfaces (or materials as XSI calls them). one shading tree going into both.

this doesn't work in XSI's tree view, but I wondered if you could have multiple surfaces on the same Nodal view at the same time and wire one thing into both surfaces.

does that make sense?

Yeah, it will be great if the lw node system lets you publish parts of your tree (or the whole tree) to be used in other node systems etc. I know you can copy and paste, but sometimes your trees get complex- so that method isn't as nice as being able to say change a branch of bump on one surface and have it effect everything else that branch is connected to.

Sooo...Tess...ByteHawk...any answers for us?:D

jeremyhardin
02-11-2006, 03:20 PM
yeah i could see the complications.

the copy and pasting of trees is brilliant though. it'll suffice for as long as the scene-object file distinction exists (which may be a very long time).

Cheers!

Tesselator
02-11-2006, 03:32 PM
jeremyhardin Wrote:
Say I have two objects in the scene. each of them has a different surface.

can I bring both surfaces into one Node Editor view and use one tree for both surfaces?

No. you will need two node editor panels. Let's say you have 70 surfaces
that all need the same texture. Here's how you would do it. Or, ummm
here''s I would do it :D :


1) Open the node editor for the first surface - set it up and test it so that
it's all tweeked and comfy.

3) In the surface editor panel right click on it's name in the "Surface Name"
list box and select copy.

4) Use the shift select to sleect the other 69 in that same list box and right
click and then select paste.

--

What I was referring to is the fact that you can create one network for
the difuse channel, a completely different one for specularity, a completly
different one for reflection, and etc. to your heart's content or untill you
run out of channels.

Additionally you can use one or more shading models for diffuse, and one or
more different shading models on specularity, and one or more different
shading models forreflection, and so on.

Again it is importand to note that not only are these shading models the first
real shading models EVER available in LW but that you can have multiple
shading models on multiple channels - individually. This was mentioned in
the video but I think it's worth repeating.


here's some photoshop trickery. 2 surfaces (or materials as XSI calls them). one shading tree going into both.

this doesn't work in XSI's tree view, but I wondered if you could have multiple surfaces on the same Nodal view at the same time and wire one thing into both surfaces.

does that make sense?


Yup, sure does. There are some inherrent problems with trying to impliment
"global surfaces" and I believe it is for those same reasons that XSI does not
alow it either. That said, I would like to say more but again there's that
mass-murder thing and I'm a passivist. :D

jeremyhardin
02-11-2006, 03:34 PM
hehe. thanks for the info. exciting times! :D

Tesselator
02-11-2006, 03:39 PM
To clarify further in my 1, 2, 3 steps above just so there is no confusion;

If I had a surface with a node network already set up and I wanted that or just
parts of it in a few other surfaces there are several options available to me for
accomplishing that. But I will save those for upcoming videos. :D There
are some hints already tho in the first video... Can you find them? :D

You might need to pause... Muahahahaaa...

wacom
02-11-2006, 03:40 PM
Yup, sure does. There are some inherrent problems with trying to impliment
"global surfaces" and I believe it is for those same reasons that XSI does not
alow it either. That said, I would like to say more but again there's that
mass-murder thing and I'm a passivist. :D

Ooops...you got to it while I was posting this...cool! Thanks for the answer.

Tess...so can we publish seperate parts to other trees? IE a complex branch of one and then save it as a published group (instance) to be used on others so that when we edit the origonal/master the published group will update as well? I've heard of other shader trees being able to do this. I'm fairly certain XSI can't.

Please...:D

Or am I creeping up on NDA stuff?

Tesselator
02-11-2006, 03:46 PM
Tess...so can we publish seperate parts to other trees? IE a complex branch of one and then save it as a published group (instance) to be used on others so that when we edit the origonal/master the published group will update as well? I've heard of other shader trees being able to do this. I'm fairly certain XSI can't.

Please...:D

Or am I creeping up on NDA stuff?

Eh-hemm... yes, :D Remember also, the public beta is just that... a beta
version.

What you guys do with it and what you want from it (requests and so forth
as well as any bugs found) are very important. So we have to be smart
about what we ask for and consider all the consequences. I have a few
already. :D

dogbite
02-11-2006, 03:54 PM
i had a dream were i was texturing with the nodes,
it was a very weird dream cause in it i understood what i was doing.

Gettarobox
02-11-2006, 04:04 PM
Tesselator wrote: The plugins in the shader dropdown are not really shaders at all they rely on
trickery - like just writing to the color channel...

This is exactly the thing that I realized that makes shadertree harder to use and take longer to set up shaders. I think you could definitely fake alot of the stuff you might be able to do in Nodal, but why would you want to fake it?
So... based on my testing Nodal is definitely going to be easier to use and more intuitive. There are alot more channels available.
Now that I really think about it the best thing that could possibly happen is that you can use shadertree on the different channels available only in Nodal.
Make that: There will only be Nodal... Bow down to Nodal... I am a subserviant slave to Nodal...Nodal's wish is my command(I need a vacation).

tischbein3
02-11-2006, 04:18 PM
There
are some hints already tho in the first video... Can you find them? :D

You might need to pause... Muahahahaaa...

can't restists :)

spots ?
mhmm... should not be very good if you consider render times.

overall nice video, and a promising set of tools for the beginning.

btw: whats that thank you at the end of the video for ? :D

Tesselator
02-11-2006, 04:18 PM
Tesselator wrote: The plugins in the shader dropdown are not really shaders at all they rely on
trickery - like just writing to the color channel...

This is exactly the thing that I realized that makes shadertree harder to use and take longer to set up shaders. I think you could definitely fake alot of the stuff you might be able to do in Nodal, but why would you want to fake it?
So... based on my testing Nodal is definitely going to be easier to use and more intuitive. There are alot more channels available.
Now that I really think about it the best thing that could possibly happen is that you can use shadertree on the different channels available only in Nodal.
Make that: There will only be Nodal... Bow down to Nodal... I am a subserviant slave to Nodal...Nodal's wish is my command(I need a vacation).


Hehehe... me too!!!! Killer avatar btw!!!

Tesselator
02-11-2006, 04:25 PM
tischbein3 can't restists :)

spots ?
mhmm... should not be very good if you consider render times.


Nope, not spots... want another hint? Look in one of the "pop-up menus" I show.

overall nice video, and a promising set of tools for the beginning.

btw: whats that thank you at the end of the video for ? :D

Hhehe for not closing the player window out of frustration and discust at
such a poor naration? :p

wacom
02-11-2006, 04:34 PM
Hhehe for not closing the player window out of frustration and discust at
such a poor naration? :p

What are you talking about? Outside of my XSI production disks I'd say that was some of the clearest, most professional narration I've heard yet on it explanitory video. You and Proton really handled the last set of videos well- please don't degrade your performance! I really hope that NewTek hires a few educational experts like you to make a pay-for set of LW production video sets that cover advanced features, theories, and applications of the software.

The fact that you teach people 3D really shines.

Tesselator
02-11-2006, 04:39 PM
What are you talking about? Outside of my XSI production disks I'd say that was some of the clearest, most professional narration I've heard yet on it explanitory video. You and Proton really handled the last set of videos well- please don't degrade your performance! I really hope that NewTek hires a few educational experts like you to make a pay-for set of LW production video sets that cover advanced features, theories, and applications of the software.

The fact that you teach people 3D really shines.


Yeah, I could go for an educational series! That would be killer!

And wow, thanks for the compliments... |blush|

Exception
02-11-2006, 04:51 PM
tess: are you aware of any clipmap-in-surfaces options in 9, through nodes or not?

tischbein3
02-11-2006, 04:52 PM
Nope, not spots... want another hint? Look in one of the "pop-up menus" I show.

The next best guess is

03:20 bottom


Nothing wrong with the quality and content of the video.
thanks.

wacom
02-11-2006, 04:57 PM
hmm I see and export selected and import nodes...

I also wonder...will we be able to control specular color directly...looks like we might...

Weepul
02-11-2006, 06:17 PM
want another hint? Look in one of the "pop-up menus" I show.

"Collapse"? It didn't seem to do anything in the demo vid...


Hhehe for not closing the player window out of frustration and discust at such a poor naration? :p

Just because Proton sounds a bit more comfortable when recording doesn't mean we don't love ya too. :D


I also wonder...will we be able to control specular color directly...looks like we might...

Yes, I'm very curious whether there's direct support for independent colors for diffusion, luminosity, specularity, reflection, and transparency filtering...

Even if there isn't, I believe it should be possible to "fake" it by shunting the amalgamation of everything to the color channel. :p

wacom
02-11-2006, 06:47 PM
"Collapse"? It didn't seem to do anything in the demo vid...



Just because Proton sounds a bit more comfortable when recording doesn't mean we don't love ya too. :D



Yes, I'm very curious whether there's direct support for independent colors for diffusion, luminosity, specularity, reflection, and transparency filtering...

Even if there isn't, I believe it should be possible to "fake" it by shunting the amalgamation of everything to the color channel. :p

I think Collapse is used to open and close the view of nodes the the node inputs and outputs. Helps when you start getting your tree going to keep in neat and focus on what you're working with.

StereoMike
02-11-2006, 07:18 PM
I really enjoyed your video, Tess, I'd never guessed you were the speaker. Hehe, perhaps I would have expected more dialect then. Was easy to follow and very clear. Thanks a bunch.
How many videos are you planning for february (roundabout.. <2,<5,<10?)

Mike

RedBull
02-11-2006, 08:56 PM
Sorry, read my other post. LW prior to L9 does NOT support other shading models other than Lambert (diffuse) and modified Blinn (specular). It never has and other attempts to try and get the looks of other shaders have all been very less than complete. If you want other shading models in LW
previous to LW9 you MUST render it outside of LW.

Sorry, i did read your post, and it that post you seemingly made some incorrect statements.... The same author that made Nodal (Antti)
actually wrote an Oren Nayer shader for LW many years back,
Since then every Node based shader has included these shaders...

Just becuase the LW renderer did not support them nativley, does not mean
others such as Yu, could not implement them in their shaders.... (and they have) Could you perhaps be able to tell me some technical information.
on how Nodal's Blinn and Lambert, will differ to TB Shadertrees implentation.?

What is difference between Oren Nayer in Nodal, compared to the 6 Oren Nayer shader plugins i've been using for many years?

Yet at the same time, it seems you can't seem to offer any ideas as to what those advantages could be..... It seems like you have a hard time answering real comparitve question. Perhaps you have not used TB Shadetree very much, and you have been using Nodal since before it's inclusion into LW9...
So perhaps your own opinion is a little biased...

Of course you could try and explain some of the real advantages
As i said, Nodal will provide some advantages.....
But to say it's so much better than Shadertree in everyway,
yet not be able to show use any real reasons why.... Seems a little like crap to me....


Not "none of us". I have used it. ByteHawk has. that's two. So here is the thing I was talking about with confusing opinion and fact. Shrug.

Besides your very one sided opinion, it seems many of us seem to know Shadertree and it's uses a little better than you do perhaps....
So just to make sweeping statements like it's better in every way,
yet can't actually tell me why this is......

Perhaps when we use Nodal, i'll agree with you... But from the video and the
Shadertree comparisons, many options in Shadertree seem absent from Nodal (and vice versa) So it seems like another halfway implentation.
But i guess we can all have our opinions.. and i'll reserve mine fully until it's released.....

A Mejias
02-11-2006, 09:06 PM
I'm more familiar with Darktree than the others metioned here. How does the LW 9 Nodes campare to Darktree?

Bytehawk
02-12-2006, 04:15 AM
I'm more familiar with Darktree than the others metioned here. How does the LW 9 Nodes campare to Darktree?


with darktree you have to create the trees in another program, previewing is a little more cumbersome.

Afaik you don't have access to advanced interactive features like distance to object, incidence, etc...

I also found the speed of darktree a lot slower than the nodal solution in LW9

IMHO the speed and ease of use of the nodal interface in LW9 is much smoother and better

for the rest, just 2 more days and y'all are going to be able to see a preview for yourselves. I'm eager to see what peeps come up with. Jaws are going to drop even harder than with the one vid you saw.

I encourage everyone to experience it for themselves. Ever since 'I saw the light' my workflow and the way I work with textures has changed dramatically.

Verlon
02-12-2006, 09:01 AM
Red Bull, re-read his OTHER other post where he explains that attempts to mimc other shaders in LW have been done through 'trickery' and that this is the first time LW has had actual support of those shaders, including Oren Nayer.

Re-read his OTHER other post where he says he has been in direct contact with the author of TB and that the AUTHOR would agree that LW9 shaders is better (surely the AUTHOR of the plugin would have a decent understanding of it)

Finally, I find it funny that you accusing Tessalator of 'not knowing TB as well as you (and others), but you have never used the LW9 version, and are basing all your expertise from watching one little video. Relax.....get off the de-caff and switch to the real stuff....

And try out the new system later this week. If you don't try to hate it so bad, you might actually like it in spite of yourself.

Have a good one.....

MrWyatt
02-12-2006, 09:25 AM
Red Bull, re-read his OTHER other post where he explains that attempts to mimc other shaders in LW have been done through 'trickery' and that this is the first time LW has had actual support of those shaders, including Oren Nayer.

Re-read his OTHER other post where he says he has been in direct contact with the author of TB and that the AUTHOR would agree that LW9 shaders is better (surely the AUTHOR of the plugin would have a decent understanding of it)

Finally, I find it funny that you accusing Tessalator of 'not knowing TB as well as you (and others), but you have never used the LW9 version, and are basing all your expertise from watching one little video. Relax.....get off the de-caff and switch to the real stuff....

And try out the new system later this week. If you don't try to hate it so bad, you might actually like it in spite of yourself.

Have a good one.....

Agreed. There are just some people who wont listen even when shouting it in their ears with a 2000 watt speaker ducktaped to their heads, they will still ask you the same questions over and over again in the hops that they finally get to hear what they want, wich in some cases seems to be that all is bad and LW sucks more than ever.

KillMe
02-12-2006, 10:26 AM
hmmmmm jsut thought of something else that perhaps might have been a nice addition to this

assuming that you do all your surfaces in node form from now on should the node editor have a surface list so you can switch to the next surface wihtout having to go back to the standard surface editor

another point if you are using the node editor for surface a and then go to the surface editor and select surface b will teh node editor automatically switch to surface b or will you have to open it again as that always annoyed me with teh graph editor always thought ti should update automatically with my selection

CB_3D
02-12-2006, 10:36 AM
It would be really cool to have everything in LW node based, from modelling (node history) to animation (bones having a node representation that could be linked to stress maps, morphs, jointcompensation...etc etc).

I could imagine that would open up sevral cool ways to do stuff, especially for characteranimation.

MrWyatt
02-12-2006, 10:39 AM
If you are willing to believe that, then you must be willing to believe the opposite as well. (That some people will support lightwave and say how great it is even if it does suck.) I personally am reserving judgment till Tuesday, but like I said before, after reading the LW9 FAQ I was a little disappointed.

I am very far from saying Lightwave is even near perfect and for crying out loud. I think it sucks mayor at some aspects, that's why I use other apps alongside with it to compensate, but that's how it goes. Still i couldn't do without the things it doesn't suck at. That's not my point here. Allthough you seem one of the persons I described earlier and no matter how often I say it there seems to be a big chance you won't get it anyway.

My point is, for clarification. Nay saying without having deep enough information on how good the new features are, is simply ignorant and stupid. Harrassing people who objectively know better, because they have a lot more insight in the matter, is rude, embarassing, extremely annoying and doesn't help anyone. Constantly saying that shadertree (wich is fantastic for a freebie) can do everything and more than nodal, allthough the ones who actually know better tell us that this isn't true including the quote, that the coder of shadertree shares the same opinion as Tesselator, is really annoying and only because some people cannot get off that opinion, doesn't make it truth, does it?
And it has been a long known fact that Lightwave only supported the Lambert diffuse with blinn specular shading model and all shaders that gave us other looks where hacks that just tried to make LW's shadingmodel look like something else. In LW9 we finally get them for real. So posting dozens of times that Lightwave allways had these other shading models whith shadertree allthough even Lightwave developers would say otherwise is, well lets say, rather unintelligent.

So if it makes you happy. Lightwave sucks at character tools and some other aspects, it sucks badly. happy now? do we finally agree here that this is NOT about Fanboys vs. NaySayers. It is about Fact vs. Fiction. Knowledge vs. Guess.


God I wish it was Tuesday allready, wait, let's say Tuesday a week later, By then even the last one of betatesters should know what imperial crap they have spread over the forums for the last few weeks and that will hopefully silence them all.

Bytehawk
02-12-2006, 10:51 AM
yep.....

and they won't be able to speak about it, except on the beta forums.

MrWyatt
02-12-2006, 10:54 AM
yep.....

and they won't be able to speak about it, except on the beta forums.

hihihi.......
:D

MrWyatt
02-12-2006, 11:33 AM
If you could read that and not get disappointed, then your expectations of LW9 where much lower then mine. Maybe its my fault for having high expectations.


My expectations where not low, just realistic. this is not a cinderella movie, changes like we want them to take place do not come over night. I for one am happy about the modeling we allready have. Allthough I can have animatable modelingtools in maya I never had a shot where I actually needed them, so I don't care too much about their absence in this update. but rendering is a big deal to me, so yes I am absolutely happy about those new features. I don't use fprime, not because of it's lack of not seeing shaders, as I could do without them, but for the lack of networkrendering, which is more important to me, so I don't care really if fprime is supported or not. I prefer seeing the dev team revamp the LW renderer instead of blowing up sugar up third party developers booty. Is that bad? well if it is than shame on me.

btw. saying the features are
a. rushed
b. half finished
and not even having seen them or tested them to see if they really are so rushed and badly implemented, is very rude and based more on prejudice than on hard fact. so excuse me if I happen to find comments like that rather annoying and am quick at posting harsh statements like the last ones I made.

:2guns:

Gettarobox
02-12-2006, 11:56 AM
I think that anyone who really cares about what this thread is really getting at should down load shadertree, try to recreate what you saw in the new Nodal vid(I did this first as a NAYSAYER), come to realise it is quite a bit more difficult than how Tess did it in his vid, then post your results and a screeny of your shadertree node set up. and then after we all get the 9 beta in hand make it again and then compare all the aspects of the experiment.
I was originally thinking that shadertree was just about as good if not the same as Nodal but after actually using it, watching the vid and then trying the same stuff Tess did in the vid in shader tree I came to the conclusion that= Nodal will be hands down, the winner in this dispute.

Go on now!!! download shadertree and try it!!! NOW!!! GO ON YA FILTHY DOGS!!!

MrWyatt
02-12-2006, 11:56 AM
I would hate to break the news to you, but you are the fan boy that you claim not to be, and I may be the nay sayer you claim I am. I can live with that. :)

what ever makes you happy
:D

MrWyatt
02-12-2006, 12:02 PM
Go on now!!! download shadertree and try it!!! NOW!!! GO ON YA FILTHY DOGS!!!

I did. actually I did use and play with each new version of it and liked it a lot. just the rendering speed was really annoying slow with raytracing nodes. otherwise, it is really good. but only seeing the vid and reading some specs of it in various forumthreads during the last year I don`t even have to really use the LW9 nodal system to know for sure that it will be far superior.

kopperdrake
02-12-2006, 02:04 PM
For those who have used lw's nodal system:
is there now FINALLY a way to make clip maps a surface property?
That annoys me to no end...

I tend to 'store' the clipmap information for an object (plant leaf for example) in the surface transparency channel for the object so I can quickly copy and paste it to the objects clipmap attributes. Of course, the transparency channel is always turned off :) At least it lets me keep my clipmap attributes in my model :)

pixym
02-12-2006, 02:10 PM
I tend to 'store' the clipmap information for an object (plant leaf for example) in the surface transparency channel for the object so I can quickly copy and paste it to the objects clipmap attributes. Of course, the transparency channel is always turned off :) At least it lets me keep my clipmap attributes in my model :)
Very good tip kopperdrake ;)

RedBull
02-12-2006, 02:16 PM
Red Bull, re-read his OTHER other post where he explains that attempts to mimc other shaders in LW have been done through 'trickery' and that this is the first time LW has had actual support of those shaders, including Oren Nayer.

I did read that message, and it was not technical or accurate
And i believe Tess is incorrect.... I have written many shaders including several Oren Nayer and Velvet Shaders....

If you may be so intelligent to tell me how my version of Oren Nayer is considered "trickery" and the Nodal version is considered "real"
Than i would be very happy....

Perhaps you would like to answer that one Verlon?
No it seems you nor Tess have any idea, and therfore should not incorrectly state, without at least qualifying he's statements...
To say LW has never supported these shading models is incorrect...

Could YOU tell me the difference?


Re-read his OTHER other post where he says he has been in direct contact with the author of TB and that the AUTHOR would agree that LW9 shaders is better (surely the AUTHOR of the plugin would have a decent understanding of it

Why would i contact Yu, about the features of Nodal?
I often talk to Yu about his plugins..... For example he just released a new Vue Compositing plugin.... :)

I don't want a comparison, i want people who seeminingly have no idea
about shader models to perhaps qualify thier claims about LW not supporting shader models....

Perhaps one of you most intelligent people could tell me how "trickery" is handled in comparison to "real" shading models? Anyone?
LW nativley does not support them, but as i said....

I have been using Oren Nayer models for years.... So i think this statement
from Tess is completely incorrect...... Antti Järvelä who made NODAL, is also the same person i based my Oren Nayer's plugin code from.....

So perhaps you could tell me what LW9 does differently when it's using the same code? I'm not saying their is not a difference, i would just like to know what it is....... Is that so bad?


Finally, I find it funny that you accusing Tessalator of 'not knowing TB as well as you (and others), but you have never used the LW9 version, and are basing all your expertise from watching one little video. Relax.....get off the de-caff and switch to the real stuff....

I didn't accuse anyone, but i do believe perhaps Tess is a little biased..
And as i pointed out, nobody else has had a chance to use Nodal in LW9
So perhaps he has a slightly biased opinion? I know if i were him, i would...

And just by the way, i have used Nodal beta version 0.9 for quite some time.
And i prefer TB Shadertree.... :) Ever since Antti Järvelä sent me a copy.


And try out the new system later this week. If you don't try to hate it so bad, you might actually like it in spite of yourself.
Have a good one.....

I don't have a problem with Nodal, it looks quite good.....!!

I just don't like people who seem to say a lot without backing it up with fact.
including bagging the efforts of TB Shadertree and it's shading models,
without telling us one advantage of the new Nodal shader models...

Nobody has even come close to explaining how Blinn and Lambert in Shadertree are any different to Blinn and Lambert in Nodal.....

Only to say "don't ask me ask the other guy" and one version uses trickery...
I mean yeah, highly technical accurate information their.... ;)

Again my only question is:
How is Oren Nayer in Nodal different to Oren Nayer in XSI or TBShadertree
or in comparison to my own shaders that use this?

In my opinion.... think many of the things he has said, are not quite correct or should be clarified.

That hardly means i won't like Nodal, or think Nodal is crap......
Displacements are one thing i already love Nodal for..... :)
And Nodal has a couple of other advantages too..... And i'm sure it has many features that Shadertreee does not..... I never questioned that...

And with all due respect, i don't have to share the fan-boy attitude...
I'm sure Nodal will be great, that does not mean i have to agree with every stupid comment made by others on the forums....... Something called free speech......

metahumanity
02-12-2006, 02:35 PM
Yeah, a bit complicated, but generally good. Good thing the old system is still in there.

Gettarobox
02-12-2006, 02:40 PM
why don't you resolve this in the form of a contest?
Whoever thinks there is something you currently can't achieve in 8.8 and down describe the effect.
Whoever thinks this can currently be done, do it.
So how bout some body come up with a reeeeeaaally crazy material idea that "can't be done without Nodal".
And someone else make it happen. The proof is generally in the pudding.

jburford
02-12-2006, 02:43 PM
1/2 feature

<1/2 feature

1/2 feature

3/4 feature



I'll let you judge that one

I would hate to break the news to you, but you are the fan boy that you claim not to be, and I may be the nay sayer you claim I am. I can live with that. :)



Do Not Know what your problem is, but get a Life!!! Take the nonsense somewhere else.......

We do not want to hear it......

Gettarobox
02-12-2006, 02:53 PM
i think the combination of the Nodal editor and the surface camera baker a lot of weird things will be possible.

StereoMike
02-12-2006, 02:58 PM
I can only speak for myself, but to me, it seems very pathetic how some guys hold tight to their version of reality. Why not wait for Tuesday? What's the sense in discussing a feature nobody (but two) has seen? I don't get it.
You can beat the crap out of me, but you won't get a correct answer from me, how many hairs on a Yeti are. I just don't know.
And regarding Tess: Knowing him from Spinquad, he's a great help and a source of knowledge. I would blindly believe him, cause he has great skills and expertise.

@RedBull
Seems like you talked your back to the wall and you're defending your POV heavily (what I see the second time now). What do you expect from this thread? That someone finally says "Sorry Red Bull, you were right!!" Won't happen. At least not until Tuesday. Sure a few people will try to poopoo or hype things regardless of facts, but most rational people will wait till they have seen something and give a comment on that. Ah, ok, I know now. This fruitless discussion is you way to kill time.
With my superhuman powers I am able to foresee the future of this thread: You won't get an answer until Tuesday.

btw my guess regarding the shader issue is, that it is possible to write something that looks like a e.g. oren-nayar to the surface, but this is more or less a hack, cause you overwrite the original settings/surface.
LW9 will introduce these shaders as part of the rendering engine.
I don't have any clue about writing shaders, so it could be, that I'm way off, but that's how it would make sense to me.
I know, the only people who could answer this, are the people who know how LW9 works.

Mike

MrWyatt
02-12-2006, 03:04 PM
So let me get this straight, you don't have to use a tool to know it is superior, but I have to use a tool to know its inferior? Go figure...

I cannot stand it if I am quoted false and people put meanings in my words that I actually never had.
As I stated, "but only seeing the vid and reading some specs of it in various forumthreads during the last year I don`t even have to really use the LW9 nodal system to know for sure that it will be far superior."

meaning that after I read what nodal can do and having read a lot of discussions about nodal and its features in the past, as well as beeing able to compare it's features to nodal systems I have used a lot in the last few years (maya for example), and on top of that having used shadertree (wich, i say it again, like very much) a lot on different occasions, give me enough background to be confident about my assumptions that nodal rocks ***.
now would you finally get off my back as you really are annoying. And if you try to quote ather people to turn around every word in order to troll the forums, go ahead, you are really good at that. appearently this seems the only thing you are good at.
have a nice day.

wacom
02-12-2006, 03:20 PM
Do Not Know what your problem is, but get a Life!!! Take the nonsense somewhere else.......

We do not want to hear it......

jburford- try at least doing some constructive feedback. I DO want to hear it. What I really want to hear more of though is not "this just sucks" but more of "this could be better if" type of comments. I guess it's just easier to either be a fan boy or a nay-sayer and not have to really think about things.

Would you guys chill out! First of all bryphi77 what did you expect? How many LW cycles have you been around for? Hey I'm the first to say that given the current market this release isn't all there, but they are laying some good ground work- and not rushing it. They could do what softimage did and go underground for several years, but that almost killed softimage then, and I doubt in this market they could do it. So instead they've divided the program into chunks and are slowly going about it. It's frustraiting, but I just don't know how any company could sustain either going dormant, or parallel development in 3D right now.

So what if the cat-subs are slower. They are slower in XSI for me than the native LW. Then again I have to use fewer polygons thanks to Ngons... that said we'll see just how much slower they are- is it a tad or down right bogging the system?

As far as edge tools go- for now I can live with them if I can weight them, loop select them and split them, divide them, and smooth shift them. Those are for the most part the tools I use in XSI, and for the most part I do my other modeling in a point or polygon mode.

As far as modeling tools in layout: I'm ready to wait as long as they are holding off to enable an opperator stack and/or make all modeling operations in Layout animatable on some level. Otherwise modeling in layout short of just intergration is almost pointless. So I don't know what to make fo this.

RedBull
02-12-2006, 04:00 PM
@RedBull
Seems like you talked your back to the wall and you're defending your POV heavily (what I see the second time now). What do you expect from this thread? That someone finally says "Sorry Red Bull, you were right!!"

It's not about being right or wrong, but perhaps some people should not make
certain claims, without the ability to explain how it is so.....


Won't happen. At least not until Tuesday. Sure a few people will try to poopoo or hype things regardless of facts, but most rational people will wait till they have seen something and give a comment on that. Ah, ok, I know now. This fruitless discussion is you way to kill time.
With my superhuman powers I am able to foresee the future of this thread: You won't get an answer until Tuesday.

Why will my answer be given on Tuesday???

Using Nodal will not give me any insight into the way they are handles differently. The only possible way i can find this information is looking at the LW9 SDK and i'm not sure that even that will be available and or tell me anything relevant.... Using Nodal will not tell me anything i already don't know...If it's a fruitless discussion Mike perhaps, one should refrain from discussing unless you have the superhuman sense of forsight to answer my question... :)

PS that's not a jab at you, just saying despite people like Verlon that seem to think i'm on a Nazi quest to be right, i'm on a quest for knowledge...


btw my guess regarding the shader issue is, that it is possible to write something that looks like a e.g. oren-nayar to the surface, but this is more or less a hack, cause you overwrite the original settings surface.
LW9 will introduce these shaders as part of the rendering engine.
I don't have any clue about writing shaders, so it could be, that I'm way off, but that's how it would make sense to me.
I know, the only people who could answer this, are the people who know how LW9 works.
Mike

:) That's almost 70% of the answer i was hoping to hear! :)
See i didn't need to wait till tuesday after all.....

I agree with what you say, and that is how i imagine the Nodal system is working, what i would of liked is to hear it from people who have used the system and know it fairly well....... Instead of those people, repeating NT marketing hype without having any clue about what it actually means....

Instead all i got was go and ask "YU" cause i'm just a parrot, who can only repeat marketing type answers...

I have Nodal 0.9 Beta..... And it's Oren-Nayer effect is almost identicle to my own shader based on Anntii's versions.... So i still would like to know more.
As i said i didn't have sound, so maybe Tess said, what you did in the first 10 seconds of the video..... And i could not hear it thats why i asked....

PS IFW2 Nodal should be available next week, in time for the Beta.

Verlon
02-12-2006, 04:01 PM
Besides your very one sided opinion, it seems many of us seem to know Shadertree and it's uses a little better than you do perhaps....So just to make sweeping statements like it's better in every way,
yet can't actually tell me why this is......

That is accusing Tess of not knowing Shadetree as well as you. You have no evidence of this, you're just saying it. Your only grounds for this is that Tess likes LW9 Nodal better. You speak of wanting facts, well the fact is that Tess has used both, and you haven't.

So I guess just reading about features and watching the video gives you enough information to.....oh wait....

Now if you WROTE an Oren Nayer shader, then you know how you had to 'cheat' (and I use that term loosely since appearance of final output is really all that matters). Saying that you guys successfully wrote around the limitations of the LW engine to successfully emmulate such shading is more of a compliment, if you can wrap your brain around that.

Having better support for such models should be like having your digital sinuses cleared, so to speak (or do you believe that a nose full of snot warms the air and keeps it from freezing your brain, too? :P )

And bryphii:

Until I find a 3D program that models what I WANT instead of what I DO, and renders in film like resolutions up to billboard sizes, at 120 frames per second (including modeling time), and is indistiguishable from reality even to trained observers and other computer programs, AND does the laundry, I guess there is room for improvement so you could say that ALL 3D applications are full of half implemented features.

Until that day, companies like LW will always be looking for ways to make things better, and there will always be tradeoffs.

I believe LW9 will be better than LW8, and I am excited about it. Does that make me a fanboy? So be it. Given NT's track record, though, I feel this is a reasonable expectation. I have played with 3D since Turbo Silver on the Amiga (wishing I could afford a Video Toaster with Lightwave while playing with the in store demo), and have owned every version since 5.5. IMHO, every version of LW has been better than the last. I really do not see why this one should suddenly fall short.

wacom
02-12-2006, 04:13 PM
I believe LW9 will be better than LW8, and I am excited about it. Does that make me a fanboy? So be it. Given NT's track record, though, I feel this is a reasonable expectation. I have played with 3D since Turbo Silver on the Amiga (wishing I could afford a Video Toaster with Lightwave while playing with the in store demo), and have owned every version since 5.5. IMHO, every version of LW has been better than the last. I really do not see why this one should suddenly fall short.

Come on- the 8 cycle was really watered down and only felt like we were finacing 9 with it. Seven I can make excuses for...but 8? Yeah...in the last moment that added a few niffty things...but 9 is addressing the things people wanted in 7 and 8. Are you telling me that the 7-8 cycle was like the 5-6 one?

Sorry- the 8 cycle was bogus to me sans some undos, Fprime, and a free copy of DFX+.

Thank goodness someone pulled up on the stick though with the 9 cycle...

StereoMike
02-12-2006, 04:52 PM
btw my guess regarding the shader issue is, that it is possible to write something that looks like a e.g. oren-nayar to the surface, but this is more or less a hack, cause you overwrite the original settings surface.
LW9 will introduce these shaders as part of the rendering engine.


I agree with what you say, and that is how i imagine the Nodal system is working

Just to make sure this isn't a misunderstanding (in a dark voice: "misunderstandings -the cause for fruitless debates, tragedies and wars...")
I guessed, that TB's and also your approach to oren-nayar (it's oren-nayar, not oren-nayer, naysay, nifty or somewhat) must be kinda hack (see above), and LW9 will introduce it as a "hack-less" feature on core level. After re-reading my post I didn't know, if I was able to make that point clear.

Mike

Tesselator
02-12-2006, 07:02 PM
I have Nodal 0.9 Beta..... And...


If this is true you have it illegally and I will have to ask you to delete it
from your system immediately!!!

Also I must add that nodal 0.9 and the node editor in LW9 share just about
nothing in common internally. Nodal 0.9x versions were a mock up of a node
system purely for proposal purposes. The Node Editor in version LW9 is not
only a part of the LW core it redefines the LW core! And in a way that spells
m-a-g-i-c-k for users of v9x and beyond, and 3rd party developers alike!

What you have is not only illegal, (which speaks volumes to me about who I'm
addressing) it's a weak fraudulent pale reflection of what will be offered
in LW9 and built on throughout the 9 product cycle - and beyond.

BTW, I took great pride in NOT including more than 1 or 2 sentences that
included "marketing hype" as you call it. That is all pure factual information.

Tesselator
02-12-2006, 07:06 PM
Just to make sure this isn't a misunderstanding (in a dark voice: "misunderstandings -the cause for fruitless debates, tragedies and wars...")
I guessed, that TB's and also your approach to oren-nayar (it's oren-nayar, not oren-nayer, naysay, nifty or somewhat) must be kinda hack (see above), and LW9 will introduce it as a "hack-less" feature on core level. After re-reading my post I didn't know, if I was able to make that point clear.

Mike


You are assuming correctly Mike. Additionally there are a few major
drawbacks to the hacker-way. Those drawbacks of course are eliminated
by doing things the "hack-less" way.

Hack-less ROCKS! :D

Exception
02-12-2006, 07:27 PM
Until I find a 3D program that models what I WANT instead of what I DO, and renders in film like resolutions up to billboard sizes, at 120 frames per second (including modeling time), and is indistiguishable from reality even to trained observers and other computer programs, AND does the laundry, I guess there is room for improvement so you could say that ALL 3D applications are full of half implemented features.



Verlon, heard LW [9] does your laundry.
I also hear that the new SDK allows for the creation of a plugin that repeatedly slaps your mother in law.
I'm going to sit this stupid argument out : )
I'm just going to throw this bloody head in the fighting circle:
"Shouldn't we call Nodal 'Modular Programming Units With Nifty Arrows'"?

MrWyatt
02-13-2006, 01:07 AM
I see I have hit a nerve MrWyatt, sorry if you can't take the truth. As far as getting off of your back, you felt the need to quote me, and tell me how you hated me. I don't remember ever asking your opinion, but I can take it. seems your the one that has trouble being civil. To say that I only troll, you obviously only see what you want. Anytime that I can help someone I do. I didn't realize that not agreeing with MrWyatt made someone a troll. What are you good at MrWyatt? I just call it like I see it, and in my eyes NT fell short, and I know I won't be the only one that thinks so.

Bottom line is...

I gave NT my money based on the features they listed and they didn't deliver them. You can sugar coat it all you want, but that is beat.

OH! and MrWyatt sorry if my opinion bothers you so much... get over it!

Oh it's about the post I did saying I hated you.
http://www.newtek.com/forums/showpost.php?p=338218&postcount=28

did you happen to see the smily under it. That was meant ironic, nothing more nothing less. It was never meant to be a personal attack. you said something like "hate me" and I thought it was funny to give you what you asked for. It was a joke dude. And if it was not easy to identify as one you could have asked how i meant it, before jumping at my neck like a raging pitbull on a testostheron high (this was meant metaphorically not literaly, just so you know).
on top of that I even tried to stop this from going any further by simply giving you what ever you like http://www.newtek.com/forums/showpost.php?p=338401&postcount=73

but no, you had to even quote posts that where not even directed to you but instead where answers to other peoples posts, plus you managed to take each quote of me and turn it into something I never said or meant. going back and reading all the post even a blind man could see that.

btw. you didn't hit any nerve at all as nothing you accuse me of thinking or meaning is true. That doesn't mean that I am not offended by someone who tries to discredit me in public and turns everything I say around to slam it right into my face.

If I hurt your feelings by saying the things I said I at least am sorry about it. but you sure did get quite hostile during this thread, there is no denying. let's just calm down all of us and get along. let's simply agree that our opinions may collide but we don't have to turn this into mayhem.

please take this as en excuse for getting personal on the last posts. Now it's your turn to either take this excuse or leave it.

Verlon
02-13-2006, 01:17 AM
No Red_Bull, I do not think you are on a NAZI quest. I think you are full of doom and gloom about something you haven't even tried yet (see Tesselator's comments about what you seem to have acquired). I make a remark about a feature I find really cool in the upcoming release, and people start springing up talking trash about it...

Was the LW7-8 cycle as big as 5-6....wellllllll depends. What we, the users got wasn't, but there were big changes going on. It IS amazing how much got done that was transparent (or nearly so, and not in OpenGL), to us.

It is like building a hot rod car.....no one cares about the new springs and bushings, the anti-sway bars, the sub-frame connectors,or the beefed up rear end, but if you do not add those things, your sleek new ride is going to break a lot more often. People want to hear about the engine, but the WHOLE car is needed to race (hah....let no car analogy go unspoken!!). They take time and money, but they aren't terribly exciting.

As has been noted, much of the LW8 cycle was devoted to re-writing things so that LW9 could deliver more and better features.....and make it easier on 3rd parties also.

So.....I STILL want nodal texturing

Tuesday should be a very good day---except that I have to work, and not in lightwave either...

lw3d23
02-13-2006, 01:43 AM
I don't know which node editor is better, I have tried TB's ShaderTree though but I have no experience with LW native node editor, so it is weird if I say either LW native or TB's node edtior is better, isn't it? but we will know the answer on Tuesday. Anyway, TB's ShaderTree is free plugin, you could still use it if anyone doesn't like LW native node editor.

btw, could someone tell me:

Could Fprime "see" everything in TB's ShaderTree ?

does TB's ShaderTree overwrite LW shading? if it is, is that mean the rendering time will take longer? cos LW will execute it's own shading algorithm anyway.

does TB's ShaderTree support SSS?

Can we write our own shading model for TB's ShaderTree?

p.s. I hate loyalist or fanboy, software and hardware are just tools. If LW9 is not as good as I expect, then I must say byebye, but LW9 is quite impressive after watching second batch of videos so far. And I appreciate that Tesselator has been telling us some informative info about LW9 at Spinquad.

StereoMike
02-13-2006, 02:25 AM
I understand your point, it's obvious, that some of the lw9 features are not finished with the 9.0 release.
But honestly, if Jay Roth hadn't told the community, what's in there for the future, you won't sense what you miss, like you do it now.
I would be happy, if someone donates a Mustang to me. But if the guy says, that's only for the time it takes to deliver the Porsche... I will instantly forget the Mustang and crave for the 911.

LW is getting a dynamic step-by-step update. That leads to features, that are under development while their already in the package.

That's the way ahead.
If you could choose between knowing what lies ahead, or getting the news only with the actual update, what would you take?

Mike

sirius156
02-13-2006, 03:14 AM
i had mine

sirius156
02-13-2006, 03:15 AM
no, im joking…

MrWyatt
02-13-2006, 03:44 AM
I am going to wrap this up as far as I am concerned. I am very exited about some features(nodal, baking camera). All my posts are directed to newtek more then any particular person. I take all this stuff with a grain of salt, and love to here everyone's opinions no matter what they are. This is all in good fun as far as I am concerned, and can honestly say that I have never made a post out off anger, out of defense of my statements, maybe. I think that after Tuesday we will all feel a little better about everything when we finally get to see what we paid for. I mostly just wanted newtek to know where I think they could have done more, not because I hate lightwave, or am not going to use it, and love it, but because I think that the things that I have listed are going to be the biggest things that they are going to get criticized for by the rest of the 3D community. If I was NT I would much rather hear these things from a paying customer before 3dworld mag, or some other place that could do far more damage then bryphi77. I honestly believe that some of my points are good points. I would have rather NT had taken the time to complete all the features that were announced, instead of cutting some features short for times sake. This is only my opinion, so please feel free to have your own, and I would love to hear all of them. That's what these forums are for.


I just wanted to add one more thing that was the biggest reason for my fear. It seams like all the features that are complete are the ones that were 3rd party plugins, and all the features that are half complete are all the ones that I am assuming were the responsibility of NT( opengl, edges, modeler tools in layout, CMC subd's.)

Agreed!
and I mean it.

prospector
02-13-2006, 06:37 AM
p.s. I hate loyalist or fanboy,

you have nothing in your life you like?
no local sports team? no favorite food? no favorite movie or TV star?

sad

I'm a big fan of sunny days
I'm a big fan of fishing and most loyal to trout fishing
I love hunting and stay true to western mulies over whitetail
I'm a big fan of the ol' lady and I stay loyal to her

and I'm a fan and stay loyal to Lightwave and the Video Toaster

but as you say
then I must say byebye

bye bye

kopperdrake
02-13-2006, 07:07 AM
LW is getting a dynamic step-by-step update. That leads to features, that are under development while their already in the package.

Indeed. The way I see it is that I'm buying into a version 9 product with all its subsequent iterations up to v9.9. Newtek give them to me as free so I assume it's all part of the same big number 9 I have bought.

Now I'm off to watch some videos - heaven knows what all this talk about Nodals is about but my nodals are itching with anticipation!

BazC
02-13-2006, 07:38 AM
Now I'm off to watch some videos - heaven knows what all this talk about Nodals is about but my nodals are itching with anticipation!


And it's already Feb 14th in Australia, ooooh, we're soooo close! :D

TSpyrison
02-13-2006, 07:43 AM
This thread is like bad reality TV..
Yet, I can’t stop watching….

:D

kennez
02-13-2006, 07:48 AM
This thread is like bad reality TV..
Yet, I can’t stop watching….

:D

Is there such a thing as good reality TV?

TSpyrison
02-13-2006, 07:53 AM
Is there such a thing as good reality TV?

The "Joe Schmo" show on spike TV was pretty darn good :D

Verlon
02-13-2006, 08:00 AM
LOL TSpyrison....how do you think I feel? I started the blommin thing.

Thor Simpson
02-13-2006, 08:53 AM
One... more... day...

Exception
02-13-2006, 10:04 AM
I would rather have a mustang than a 911. Squashed bug.
And... I am a fanboy of Prospector. I think he is good regardless of how many people he tortures.
:)

regarding the 9.0 to 9.9 buyin... thats what i think too... too bad that i can't remember any version number of lightwave beyond .6... so it should be a buying in from 9.0 to probably 9.6....

KillMe
02-13-2006, 10:08 AM
Is there such a thing as good reality TV?

space cadets was pretty **** good but that was more of a unreality tv show

StereoMike
02-13-2006, 04:16 PM
I would rather have a mustang than a 911.

Why? Even the strange case given, that you like loosing streetraces, you could sell the 911 and buy two (or more) Mustangs for the money.
Then you could loose on a friday night in a red Mustang, and take the black one for saturday night to cloud your obsession for loosing streetraces - and loose again.

;)

Mike

wacom
02-13-2006, 04:30 PM
Why? Even the strange case given, that you like loosing streetraces, you could sell the 911 and buy two (or more) Mustangs for the money.
Then you could loose on a friday night in a red Mustang, and take the black one for saturday night to cloud your obsession for loosing streetraces - and loose again.

;)

Mike

Hey everyone knows that you get cheaper dates in a Mustang!

Wickster
02-13-2006, 04:39 PM
Hmmm, Feb 14 is creaping in so fast....Sort of like a new uber Video Game Console Release. Is there any place we can wait till midnight with starbucks coffee at hand? I believe some people have already camped out right next to the NewTek Server. :D

Wickster
02-13-2006, 05:05 PM
Married People should seriously sit this one out til Feb. 15. It'll make the servers faster and less risk of overbandwidth....Don't worry married people includes me too. :D

Verlon
02-13-2006, 05:36 PM
Stereo Mike....head down to San Antonio in your 911 looking for a race, and bring money....seriously.

No disrespect to 911's which are very nice cars, but I have seen some STUPID fast mustangs. Its easier to make them a LOT faster. Texas Jam ran like a 7.7 in the 1/4 mile, for example.

From the factory, sure.....but after market makes a big difference. :)

Exception
02-13-2006, 05:38 PM
Why? Even the strange case given, that you like loosing streetraces, ...
Mike

Hm, i built a mustang (not just by myself tho) that can whip a 911's *** any day.

I don't think in terms of money. I'd be happier with a mustang. That is important. Why? Because i think its a more honest car. In studying the development of the 911 I discovered so many hacks to make it perform even remotely decent because of its horrid drag coefficient and aerodynamic performance that I feel it is a driving lie (ooh the auto-lifting spoiler hack was hilarious). These days they solve it using electronics, which disconnects every honest driving sensation from the user. All because they want to retain the look that harks back to what once was a nice car, and still say it is fast (so thousands of people can fork out money to satisfy their midlife crisis). Retro design is poverty.


And in the end, I actually own an alfa romeo.. whee. Not fast but sure looks better than both (and a good saving on the fuel).

StereoMike
02-14-2006, 12:43 AM
Hehe, I don't have a 911 (I was once close to buying an old 914, but it was in a bad condition, so left it with tears in my eyes).

But it's one of my favorite cars. So for the autolifting spolier, or the most big spoilers on 911 in generally, this has more to do with cooling the boxer engine and providing more air than with aerodynamics. The mid-80´s 911 turbo needed the space below the spoiler for that big intercooler. And the later autolifting one provided more fresh air from 85 kph upwards. The Murciélago has a similar feature.

I guess you're right, with some tuning you can get some serious performance increase on US cars (with "less" effort than for european ones) But I think it's because here in Europe they build smaller cars with smaller engines (which are pretty maxed out in some cases), so you have to pull a leg to get things real cooking. It's easier to tune a car with a big engine, that didn't made much use of it before.

Anyway, I think you can see "hacks" in each and every car. And you can disable ESP if you want to make some donuts. I still like the car, especially the 993 and the actual one. I hated the face of the 911 which looked like a Boxter.

Hope nobody minds me hi-jacking this thread, i'm just waiting for the beta and want to kill some time...

Mike

colkai
02-14-2006, 02:50 AM
I have been trying to get my girlfriend to show some interest in what I do for about 3 years now, with no luck. NT has actually gotten her to show some interest. She would like to know if the beta is going to be released at 12:00AM on the 14 so I will be able to use it for a couple of hours before bed, or if you guys(NT) are going to ruin her special day. This is not a joke.:D
Oh golly gosh, I can see you and many others are going to be figuring out how to sweeten the GF whilst dissappearing to "play" (as they see it). :p

Oh.. did I mention I was in the same boat? ;)
Of course, after 24 years of marriage, she's probably happy to see the back of me for a few nights. ;)

Meanwhile, our "better halves" are rubbing their collective hands thinking of ways to make us feel guilty. Hehehe...

mattclary
02-14-2006, 05:54 AM
Well, this thread has proven useful for something. It finally made me add some badly needed names to my ignore list. There comes a certain point where the deafening cacophony of unsatisfiable nay sayers just becomes to much to endure.

Qexit
02-14-2006, 06:05 AM
Oh golly gosh, I can see you and many others are going to be figuring out how to sweeten the GF whilst dissappearing to "play" (as they see it). :p

Oh.. did I mention I was in the same boat? ;)
Of course, after 24 years of marriage, she's probably happy to see the back of me for a few nights. ;)

Meanwhile, our "better halves" are rubbing their collective hands thinking of ways to make us feel guilty. Hehehe...Of course this is a problem I don't have to contend with :) Though I do have to head over to see my mum in hospital shortly, so it does balance up in the end.

Meantime, if like me you find Valentine's Day just a little bit annoying and you live in the UK you might find this competition link quite entertaining:

http://www.capri-sun.co.uk/bft/content_20060210.php?id=28

Not to everyone's taste of course :D