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View Full Version : Cyber/Data Gloves and VR GLasses at LW, anyone care to vote



DiedonD
02-06-2006, 02:09 AM
Im sure everyone is aware that the NewTek development team is watching us, reading our comments, digging in to our needs and thus develop a better software in the future based on that knowledge, and they are doing that as we speak.

Knowing that they are doing LW9 I cant help but use this thread to give them information, with your most welcomed participation of course, about how many of us would like LW to have Cyber/Data gloves and/or VR Glassess to work with it.

I for one am waay, way thumbs up for it Development Team, Go for it

:agree: :) :thumbsup: :newtek: :lwicon: :D :hey:

pooby
02-06-2006, 02:23 AM
I consider it to be a waste of Newtek's time

DiedonD
02-06-2006, 02:27 AM
I consider it to be a waste of Newtek's time

Geesh, guess up to a bad start. Alright, lets go on...

hrgiger
02-06-2006, 02:28 AM
Im sure everyone is aware that the NewTek development team is watching us, reading our comments, digging in to our needs and thus develop a better software in the future based on that knowledge, and they are doing that as we speak.

Actually, in the community section here that you posted, they're pretty much just watching to make sure that we dont' say bad words like **** and **********. [words deleted by above mentioned moderators] You really should post in the feature request forums.


Knowing that they are doing LW9 I cant help but use this thread to give them information, with your most welcomed participation of course, about how many of us would like LW to have Cyber/Data gloves and/or VR Glassess to work with it.

I for one am waay, way thumbs up for it Development Team, Go for it

:agree: :) :thumbsup: :newtek: :lwicon: :D :hey:

I don't think that the particular technology you are talking about is proven itself yet as reliable for the developement team to waste their time on such a ridiculous request , IMHO of course.

Besides, I'm sure most of the people on these forums who spend such a large part of their time in front of the computer have enough trouble with the ladies without looking like a complete and total dork wearing VR glasses and gloves.

DiedonD
02-06-2006, 02:41 AM
Actually, in the community section here that you posted, they're pretty much just watching to make sure that we dont' say bad words like **** and **********. [words deleted by above mentioned moderators] You really should post in the feature request forums.

I don't think that the particular technology you are talking about is proven itself yet as reliable for the developement team to waste their time on such a ridiculous request , IMHO of course.

Besides, I'm sure most of the people on these forums who spend such a large part of their time in front of the computer have enough trouble with the ladies without looking like a complete and total dork wearing VR glasses and gloves.

Alright hriger, thank you... I wonder how this thread will turn out.

Bytehawk
02-06-2006, 03:13 AM
until the 3D displays get popular (the ones you don't need glasses for and don't cause a headache), IMHO no

Mylenium
02-06-2006, 03:58 AM
Knowing that they are doing LW9 I cant help but use this thread to give them information, with your most welcomed participation of course, about how many of us would like LW to have Cyber/Data gloves and/or VR Glassess to work with it.

Definitely not. For me the question simply is: how many of us can afford equipment like VR gloves, Spacemouses and whatnot. In that light it's a complete waste of development resources - why implenent such functions, if only 10 out of several thousand users use it? Anyway, even without that, it's a moot point. For serious VR interaction, you need much more than a simple off-the shelf computer with Lightwave on it.

Mylenium

hairy_llama
02-06-2006, 12:44 PM
Not afford VR gloves? You can buy one for what, under $50 bucks?

I think it would be incredible, but only if it works reliably . I've
never used one of the VR gloves so I have no idea how precise they are.

Scott_Blinn
02-06-2006, 01:14 PM
What I would REALLY like to see supported as far as hardware devices go is a haptic device.

http://www.sensable.com/

ClayTools and a haptic device smoke* Zbrush** most of the time once you get used to it (about 2 days).

* I know how good Zbrush is and don't say that lightly.
** Zbrush does rock too and does somethings better than ClayTools still!

GregMalick
02-06-2006, 02:50 PM
Not afford VR gloves? You can buy one for what, under $50 bucks?

I think it would be incredible, but only if it works reliably . I've never used one of the VR gloves so I have no idea how precise they are.HL - I think you hit the nail on the head. an older $50 device probably doesn't have much precision.

Scott,
If I had the cash, I'd rather purchase a 21UX Cintiq. :heart: mmmmm... Wacom Cintiq.

Scott_Blinn
02-06-2006, 07:38 PM
Scott,
If I had the cash, I'd rather purchase a 21UX Cintiq. :heart: mmmmm... Wacom Cintiq.

Hehe, agreed. Wacom just sent us one to play with for a week. It is very nice indeed. Some of our artists thought it was a bit large actually and are holding out for a smaller one (17 or 19 inch).

Mylenium
02-06-2006, 11:06 PM
Not afford VR gloves? You can buy one for what, under $50 bucks?

Not really. If you need decent spacial tracking, you need much more precise equipment. Those cheap thingies will only track movements of your fingers relative to the wrist and since they mostly are based on cheap thin foil resistors (as you bend your fingers, resitance changes and from that motion data is derived), you have to move a lot to see any reaction at all. The result are rather rough and rugged movements and it takes a lot of practice, to do a presentation using such a device. Anyway, I guess those gloves won't be around forever as currently enough technologies emerge that allow interactive tracking of your hand sans gloves and anything.

Mylenium

ercaxus
02-06-2006, 11:53 PM
Hehe, agreed. Wacom just sent us one to play with for a week. It is very nice indeed. Some of our artists thought it was a bit large actually and are holding out for a smaller one (17 or 19 inch).
If you can afford couple of those you should be able to hire a guy to hold it in front of the artist 8 hours a day, so the size shouldn't be a problem. :D

badllarma
02-07-2006, 01:57 AM
While I have to agree there are other things Newtek should be working on there is this product on the market already

http://www.quest3d.com/index.php?id=171

it plugins to lightwave as well in some way shape or form (not sure if it is just model export for instance). But it may be or use to you diedond :)

Nitisara
02-07-2006, 03:41 AM
I think it should be implemented. Anyway, it is the future of 3D. The question is how soon it will come, and who will lead...

pooby
02-07-2006, 04:04 AM
It may be the FUTURE but it's not the present.

Ask me again in 'n' years (once LW has had all the necessary stuff done) and I might be all for it.

StereoMike
02-07-2006, 05:17 AM
I just browsed through "digital production" magazine and there was a little article about a project of a german university. They use a wacom and two pens to track walkcycles. You move the two pens as if your were playing with your favorite He-man or Barbie puppet walking down the catwalk, and the software calculates the walkcycle dependig on pen rotation, lifted time, distance etc.

Can't find it via google, but next time I see the mag, I'll buy it and post the link.

Mike

Nitisara
02-07-2006, 05:20 AM
It may be the FUTURE but it's not the present.

Ask me again in 'n' years (once LW has had all the necessary stuff done) and I might be all for it.
To use it in 'n' years, development should already be started :)

pooby
02-07-2006, 05:38 AM
Maybe Newtek should also be developing LW to work with direct Brain to Computer interfaces and 3D holgraphic displays in that case.:)

They can fix the IK and full F prime support and stuff later on...


(it seems to me that, for some users, It's about the 'fun' of using LW.. Yes it should be pleasant to use, but, say, when they built the Empire state building, they didn't make waterslides and bungee jumps to brighten up the the construction workers building experience.)

Scott_Blinn
02-07-2006, 11:28 AM
Maybe Newtek should also be developing LW to work with direct Brain to Computer interfaces and 3D holgraphic displays in that case.:)

They can fix the IK and full F prime support and stuff later on...


(it seems to me that, for some users, It's about the 'fun' of using LW.. Yes it should be pleasant to use, but, say, when they built the Empire state building, they didn't make waterslides and bungee jumps to brighten up the the construction workers building experience.)

Well, all NewTek really needs to do is get their SDK up on par with the "other" major 3D apps (and from what I hear it seams they are working on that). Third party hardware/software could/should take care of the rest and support their own product's integration into LW.

Also, while I agree some things are more for the "fun factor" than others prehaps (though that depends on your line of work I guess), I think full support for things like ClayTools/Haptic and Zbrush are critical to the future of being competitive in the 3D market.

But even more than that- it is even infinitely more important to have a robust, flexible, open SDK to support the apps/hardware we don't even know about yet! There is a reason why Zbrush has much better/smoother integration with the "other" apps- because it could.

LightWave has been sliding off the back end of the 3D app performance curve, but the good news is that I think v9 will stop that trend and the new LW team understands this and are working to changing it. :-)

hrgiger
02-07-2006, 11:32 AM
I agree with Pooby 100%. Let's get a lot of issues resolved with Lightwave before we get all Buck Rogers.

Mylenium
02-07-2006, 12:00 PM
I think it should be implemented. Anyway, it is the future of 3D. The question is how soon it will come, and who will lead...

I don't think so. Sure, 3D is going to become more and more interactive, but it does by no means mean a complete convergence of all available technologies on a low budget level so it can be picked up by home users. There's a lot of marketing BS used in that area and even today the really cool VR stuff costs several millions and is more or less custom made or experimental. Most what happens on standard computers for training and process simulation is Lego-TV at 12 fps i.e. still rather blocky graphics with as few polygons as possible and at stuttering refresh rates.

Ask yourself: If 3D was really the simple and interactive process everyone wants us to believe, why would we even bother working with Lightwave on a commercial level and make a living of it? Sorry to say so, but at the moment I don't see any techologies emerge, which would change that. About 95% of all 3D content are created "offline" by using 3D programs and other graphics apps and only after that it is transfered to some guy or other program to do the programming. Nothing will change that, not PPUs (Physics Processing Units), not RTUs (Realtime Raytracing Units), not Acrobat 3D with its drag&drop authoring.

Worst of all, nothing really has changed in the way man and machine interact. Why should I even bother to wear VR goggles and gloves when they are nothing more than another way of propagating 3D in a 2D environment? I still have to use abstract gestures to do anything, the environment only reacts reluctantly and with delay to my inputs, true interaction does not exist because actions that were not thought of in advance cannot be executed, sensory inputs are limited to visual and auditory stimuli, input devices require dedicated drivers and secondary hardware and so on. Really, if there is any future in there, it is so far away, I'm going to be an old man and not care about such matters anymore.

Mylenium

badllarma
02-07-2006, 12:05 PM
Really, if there is any future in there, it is so far away, I'm going to be an old men and not care about such matters anymore.

Mylenium

Speak for yourself mate! I'm looking forward to my retirement so I can finally get all my personal projects and ideas done in 3D :D

DiedonD
02-08-2006, 01:52 AM
Hmmmm... Not that much of a favorite topic is it. If youd gather all the votes till now in the normal distribution, id say it would be like this.

There are always extremes in everything. On one end am I 100% pro for NewTek's new technological development, followed by hairy_lama, Nitisahara and Scot_Blin, than it starts getting a bit gray with users not wanting them because they are too pricy and others that would rather prefer other tools (the gray area is always the bigest in any statistical normal distribution) and of course theres the 100% for "no" users on the other hand, which I must stress pooby who made it clear from the beginning (you just love to work for no fun do you pooby?), followed by lhrgiger and byte hawk and so on.

Conclusion: Although we might want NewTek to develop these things, they lack the consumer support. We are a minority, and for NewTek to develop those things it should be statistically proven that is cost effective. WHich so far with this little normal distribution was proven the opposite.

Only these things might change their mind: if every other softare uses them, if they become less expensive, and if they just risk and test the develpment just to see how will their market grow.

Objectively speaking that is not likely to happen (though Id love them to risk it :) ) not in near future anyway.

Thanks for participating :) , even you pooby

pooby
02-08-2006, 02:01 AM
you just love to work for no fun do you pooby?

I have lots of Fun because I'm mad about making animated films. It's been my passion since I was young, and now I do it full time and get paid more than I need. I've been represented as a director by the two most well known studios in the UK and I'm employing people to help me make my short film this year in my new studio set in the grounds of a beautiful old castle.
I'm the luckiest person I know.
So, I don't feel like the fun factor in my life needs boosting by a pair of goggles or gloves.


Thanks for participating , even you pooby

Youre welcome..
Please understand, I'm not just trying to be awkward or poo-poo your ideas. I just think that it's far better to focus on the end result rather than the process. If you can make the current system work, then use what you have and make something great with it.
When I used to do stop-frame, I preffered using ball and socket joints rather than wire armatures. It was more practical and produced better results. Fun didn't come into it. the Fun bit was the realising of the ideas.
My first film was made in my shed, with a cine-camera from a junk shop sellotaped to a table because I had no money for a tripod. It was lit with an anglepoise lamp nicked from my mums living room. It was difficult and awkward and it was GREAT fun because I was making a film.. an actual film..

kopperdrake
02-08-2006, 02:51 AM
I have lots of Fun because I'm mad about making animated films. It's been my passion since I was young, and now I do it full time and get paid more than I need. I've been represented as a director by the two most well known studios in the UK and I'm employing people to help me make my short film this year in my new studio set in the grounds of a beautiful old castle.
I'm the luckiest person I know.

Touché :)

Which castle by the way?

pooby
02-08-2006, 04:14 AM
Thanks..

this one...

Nitisara
02-08-2006, 04:17 AM
Thanks..

this one...
Nice castle! Which window is yours? :)

pooby
02-08-2006, 04:31 AM
We're over the wall on the right in a courtyard.

Nitisara
02-08-2006, 04:34 AM
We're over the wall on the right in a courtyard.
Cool! It should be so romantic... Really nice place!