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lesford
02-04-2006, 10:17 AM
I know that F-Prime has limitations in what it can show. Will those limitations affect its ability to show Lightwave sub surface scattering?

Les

Stooch
02-04-2006, 01:47 PM
thats a question for worley labs.

toby
02-04-2006, 02:09 PM
That's actually a much bigger question... how many of LW [9]'s new features will be visible in FPrime?

New subdivision, APS, node-surfacing, Blinn, Anisotropy, modeling changes in layout... probably why we haven't heard from Worley in a while, I think he's got a lot on his plate - but he never fails to blow our minds, so even if it's not ready as soon as LW9 is I'm sure it will be soon after.

hrgiger
02-04-2006, 06:36 PM
I imagine the subdivision surfaces would show up but there's been no word yet on full shader support yet. I really hope so, I would love to experiement with the new SSS shader.

RedBull
02-04-2006, 09:26 PM
LightWave 9 includes an integrated node graph to create complex shading networks or shade trees. Using existing LightWave shaders, the node graph allows the user to “wire” parameters of various shaders and operators together to create powerful shaders without any user coding required.
Not just a face lift, the Material Node Graph is a completely new method of working with materials, which offers an order of magnitude more capability than the older surface and material edit system.

• F Prime Support
• Normal Maps from Z Brush 2 Supported
• Create Textured Morph Maps
• Animated Weight Maps
• Microbump Operator
• Branches can be imported and exported
• Raytrace Nodes
• Distance Nodes
• Proximity Nodes
• Direction Slope Nodes
• Work how you want to work: Layers in Nodes; Nodes in Layers; Layers Only; Nodes Only
• Full support of native controls and envelopes
• Available in Layout and Modeler, and maintains context when switching between the two

So would we like to speculate on what that really means......

"Using existing LightWave shaders, the node graph allows the user to “wire” parameters of various shaders and operators together to create powerful shaders..."

So FPrime supports Nodal...
And Nodal supports the ability to wire parameters from Shaders or Procedurals together........

So to me that says we are getting what we want..... (i hope NT marketing have not tried to make more of that than their is....)
But i sure hope this weeks Video will show it for sure...

I'm guessing a new version of FPrime will be due, but we don't know if it will be available at the same time as the Public Demo...

lw3d23
02-04-2006, 11:20 PM
hope LW9's sss is decent, so Mr Worley needs to improve the quality of G2's SSS. ;)

lwaddict
02-05-2006, 06:46 AM
I'd have to agree with the first reply...

since FPrime is Worley's product...
the question and more are their problem.

It's like asking Microsoft if Lightwave will run on the next generation of Windows...THAT would be Newtek's issue.

Captain Obvious
02-05-2006, 07:02 AM
I'd have to agree with the first reply...

since FPrime is Worley's product...
the question and more are their problem.

It's like asking Microsoft if Lightwave will run on the next generation of Windows...THAT would be Newtek's issue.
Sort of, but not quite. It's NewTek's "responsibility" to make sure the proper connections are available. Right now, Fprime cannot render shaders due to NewTek, not due to Worley. If the rumours about Vista not supporting OpenGL are true, then it's Microsoft's fault Lightwave won't run, not NewTek's.

hrgiger
02-05-2006, 07:08 AM
Sort of, but not quite. It's NewTek's "responsibility" to make sure the proper connections are available. Right now, Fprime cannot render shaders due to NewTek, not due to Worley. If the rumours about Vista not supporting OpenGL are true, then it's Microsoft's fault Lightwave won't run, not NewTek's.


Your post could be half-right or half-wrong depending on whether you're a glass half empty or half full kind of guy. Taking volumetrics in Fprime for example- it was Newtek's responsibility to add to the SDK to allow for the abilty of Fprime to render HV's(by adding the 'hooks'), but once that was done, it was Worley's responsibility to implement that ability. So as far as shaders go, we don't know yet if the SDK has been altered in such a way. We don't know whose court the ball is in just yet.

Captain Obvious
02-05-2006, 07:19 AM
My point exactly.

lwaddict
02-05-2006, 08:21 AM
In that case...

how dare they, the auto industry, not make cars that will support square tires, right?

I know, a reach, but here goes...

when you're making a product that relies in whole or in part on another product...it is YOUR "responsibility" to keep up the pace and make sure, in advance whenever possible, that it works with the product...not theirs.

The reliance on a "sub" product of the whole, is the problem of the consumer, not the manufacturer of the "main" product.

I, personally, think that it would be a better business practice to spend the companies money on developing it's own, better, faster rendering system than to spend money on having engineers rewrite SDK components so someone else could sell their product. Doesn't that make sense?

I totally agree that the SDK should be made available in the first place, but once it's out...it's out...and there just aren't enough people out there making plugins for this product (or any of the 3d apps for that matter) to make it worth spending time or money supporting their development. (I wish this wasn't true...but look around)

Your idea that if OpenGL vanished that it would be Microsoft's problem that Lightwave wouldn't run is just lame.

If OpenGL vanished, it wouldn't happen overnight, and it would be the "responsibility" of software makers everywhere who utilize OpenGL to keep up the pace and come up with something new...or go with whatever replaced it.

Lightwolf
02-05-2006, 08:35 AM
I totally agree that the SDK should be made available in the first place, but once it's out...it's out...and there just aren't enough people out there making plugins for this product (or any of the 3d apps for that matter) to make it worth spending time or money supporting their development. (I wish this wasn't true...but look around)
Not quite true... There are companies that go out of their way to support third parties... Some even have people hired dedicated to third party support.

Cheers,
Mike

Captain Obvious
02-05-2006, 08:36 AM
I, personally, think that it would be a better business practice to spend the companies money on developing it's own, better, faster rendering system than to spend money on having engineers rewrite SDK components so someone else could sell their product. Doesn't that make sense?
No, it doesn't make sense. 3D applications rely on third party plugins. The reason Maya and 3dsm are so successful is largely because of their modular architecture. They're not successful because their own renderers are good (compared to LW, they're not...), they're successful because "anyone" can write their own renderer for them and have full support for everything.



Your idea that if OpenGL vanished that it would be Microsoft's problem that Lightwave wouldn't run is just lame.
Not their problem. Their fault. If Microsoft were to remove OpenGL from Windows, thereby breaking Lightwave and Maya and and and and..., it's not NewTek and Autodesk you should complain to, it's Microsoft. If NewTek does something that breaks Fprime, whine to NewTek, not Worley.

prospector
02-05-2006, 09:20 AM
Aftermarket products (ie: Third party) are just that...aftermarket

Would a plane mfg be responsable for wing strut mfgs when they went from bi-winged to single?

would a car company be responsable to radio mfgs if they made radios fit into the steering wheel instead of the dash?

and would a car mfg be responsable to airpump mfgs it they started to install all foam filled tires on all cars?

in each case....no

if aftermarket products can't keep up or are totally dependent on 1 way of doing something for thier buisness, then when something changes and they no longer are good for the main product, out they go.

so if Microsoft DID go and write a TOTALLY different OS that had NONE of anything in todays OS, then it behoves the other software writers to change too or go out of buisness.

lwaddict
02-05-2006, 10:19 AM
8-Track tapes...
**** Sony and the rest for not giving more support.

Cassette tapes...
**** them all again.

Records...
Uh.

5.25" Floppy drives...
**** Apple and the rest for not continuing their full support of this fine product.

OpenGL...people please. You don't honestly believe that this will be around forever do you?

Sooner or later, things change. Technology changes.

Back in the day, all the 3d apps were backed up by third party plugs up the whazoo...not anymore. Most are fast becoming full packages.

Companies holding on to teams of employees that are specifically for supported third party support are eventually in for a shock...well, the employees are, that's for sure.

Captain Obvious
02-05-2006, 10:21 AM
A better car analogy:

Imagine if General Motors suddenly changed the CD player, from a standard radio/CD player into something else, some proprietary thing. There is no longer a way to connect a regular car CD/radio thing. Who made a blunder? GM, by making it impossible to make third party products, or the third parties by not doing something that is impossible? Obviously, their (often inferior) system will cause some people to not buy GMs when they otherwise would.

"Aftermarket" support is ABSOLUTELY VITAL, plain and simple. Would you use Lightwave with NO plugins what-so-ever (including Lscripts)? Would you buy a BMW if you could only refuel it at their own shops? I sure wouldn't. Nor would I buy a 3D application that doesn't let third parties (or me) make plugins for things I feel the 3D application is missing. I don't think it would be untrue to say that Fprime has sold quite a few licenses of Lightwave.

Stooch
02-05-2006, 12:08 PM
A better car analogy:

Imagine if General Motors suddenly changed the CD player, from a standard radio/CD player into something else, some proprietary thing. There is no longer a way to connect a regular car CD/radio thing. Who made a blunder? GM, by making it impossible to make third party products, or the third parties by not doing something that is impossible? Obviously, their (often inferior) system will cause some people to not buy GMs when they otherwise would.

"Aftermarket" support is ABSOLUTELY VITAL, plain and simple. Would you use Lightwave with NO plugins what-so-ever (including Lscripts)? Would you buy a BMW if you could only refuel it at their own shops? I sure wouldn't. Nor would I buy a 3D application that doesn't let third parties (or me) make plugins for things I feel the 3D application is missing. I don't think it would be untrue to say that Fprime has sold quite a few licenses of Lightwave.

bingo end of arguement. :) car analogy FTW.

and to drive the nail home.

all the huge productions with budgets in the millions customise their apps HEAVILY and write whole new additions to them. Since they bring BY FAR the most exposure and money to the table, would you want to be the one telling them that they can no longer rely on an open architecture?

Dodgy
02-05-2006, 02:06 PM
No, it doesn't make sense. 3D applications rely on third party plugins. The reason Maya and 3dsm are so successful is largely because of their modular architecture. They're not successful because their own renderers are good (compared to LW, they're not...), they're successful because "anyone" can write their own renderer for them and have full support for everything.
Not true. All the third party renderers for maya at least don't support all it's features, turtle definitely doesn't. It might be better at hiding the seams, but they're still there.

Captain Obvious
02-05-2006, 02:16 PM
Okay, fine, I've never actually used Maya... I kind of pulled that example out of my arse. :p Still, 3dsm seems to have very good support for 3rd party renderers.

habañero
02-05-2006, 02:16 PM
With as much real knowledge we have about what soon avaits us, I guess to discuss philosophy by means of car analogies is probably our best bet ... :angel: :D

RedBull
02-05-2006, 03:15 PM
I'm not sure what this discussion is about anymore...

But as i said FPrime support is mentioned for Nodal in LW9...
Nodal allows the connection of existing shaders.

Obviously by putting FPrime Support on the LW9 list,
they are aware of our concerns

We know Worley is on the Beta team, and i'm sure this time they've worked a little closer to Worley Labs... So the question really is when would we get a new Fprime?

In time for the Beta or after the full release?

lwaddict
02-05-2006, 03:18 PM
Once upon a time, I used to use a lot of plugins with Lightwave...
but now...

almost nobody I know, who's using it professionally, is using more than one or two of the freebies online...and they freely admit it's because they haven't had the time to learn how to do it directly in Lightwave.

FPrime...is incomplete at best.
It's time may come, but if you've been using Lightwave for awhile, you get the jist of what you scene will look like without it.

So...I'm thinkin', since the only real argument for Lightwave third party support seems to be Worley...maybe they should just spend the time and money on speeding up the render process and popping in a hair system of their own (a complete hair system, pleez), and be done with it, eh?

You're not talking about a ton of third party developers here...
so the GM thing, ain't cuttin' it.
What we're really talking about...
is whether or not they should continue to support Worley, since the support wasn't there for Dynamic Realities, Joe Alter, etc...(all gone bye bye)
I'm thinkin' it's all or nothing.

RedBull
02-05-2006, 06:35 PM
I have no idea what your on about?
Are you trolling?

Your right we should continue to use an old outdated core with no ability
for parts of LW to talk to other parts of LW....

Hey why don't we ban Third Parties from making plugins for LW anyway?
Burn em i reckon, who needs third party support...
Never did LW, Max or Maya any good either....

Evasion, Yu Umebayashi, OGO, Worley, Happy Digital, True Art, TLU.
Are just a couple of people needing more from the SDK.
Giving access to the SDK is likely to improve third party tools for LW..

:screwy: :screwy: :screwy: :screwy: :screwy: :screwy:

Have you seen how many plugins were bought from Third Parties for LW8.x to LW9.x

TLU's plugins, Nodal, R2, Rounder, David Ikeda's Plugins, Bone Tools...
Rigid Dynamics, the list is endless.....Before that Hypervoxels, ParticleFX....
Motion Designer, Morph Mixer.....

Nup us LW users don't use any third party tools any more....... :screwy:
I will refrain from taking the piss any more... :)

DiscoBurgess
02-06-2006, 07:38 AM
8-Track tapes...
**** Sony and the rest for not giving more support.

Cassette tapes...
**** them all again.

Records...
Uh.

5.25" Floppy drives...
**** Apple and the rest for not continuing their full support of this fine product.

OpenGL...people please. You don't honestly believe that this will be around forever do you?
No, no one honestly believed that OpenGL would be around forever, or said they did, but you asked anyway. What we've got a problem with is a perfectly good graphics library being unnecessarily degraded on one platform. This is very different to old formats being replaced with obviously better ones, as in the example you gave.

Indeed, the examples you gave showed improvement and progression, and older formats being quite rightly substituted for better ones. The situation we have here is that Newtek have finally worked hard on improving the OpenGL situation in LW, only to have it's performance degraded again by Windows Vista. Of course things get replaced, but usually it's because there's a better alternative. Here, it looks like it's only going to screw with LW's OpenGL, and in the worst case mean that Newtek have to write another preview renderer all over again just for Windows.

But right, yeah, you've got a wonderful, point there, 5.25" discs were replaced, so you know, we shouldn't worry about this either, right? You know, because there's so much in common with that.

jeremyhardin
02-06-2006, 07:56 AM
A slightly different take than what's been said so far (since it isn't about 8 tracks or OpenGL ;) )...

Even if it said, verbatum, FPrime will support all of LW9's new features, including SSS, it would still be in question until you see it. Why?

1. That feature list is subject to change without notice. Period. If they don't get it working in time or it poses stability problems, it'll just get deleted.

2. Even if it stays in the list, oops-es happen. A Public Hub API is also in the list for SDK changes. For 9 you ask? No, no. For Lightwave 8, and it just never showed up in the actual software.

pooby
02-06-2006, 08:30 AM
almost nobody I know, who's using it professionally, is using more than one or two of the freebies online...and they freely admit it's because they haven't had the time to learn how to do it directly in Lightwave.

Well, in a recently completed campaign we used- off the top of my head

F prime for about %50 of final renders
G2
Sasquatch
Smartmorph
HD instance
Surpasses
Vfollowerplus
and about 18 other free plugins

This was a big campaign too, not some little local ad.

GregMalick
02-06-2006, 11:17 AM
Paul - thanks for the plug for vFollowerPlus. :jester: pun intended.

This thread has some truly bizarre thoughts in it.
Especially the "it's all or nothing" comment.

Who would suggest that Microsoft or Adobe should not have released their macro/scripting languages and instead used those resources on the application?

LScript and the SDK allow companies with the right intellectual resources to use products in ways that are difficult/impossible otherwise. It also allows individuals to share new, creative ways of doing things. NODAL is an example of a good idea that was scooped up before it ever hit the market.

Only NT knows what the story is regarding the SDK & LScript. I recently switched to the SDK and have to say that it is quite powerful. Opening it up even more in LW9 would be wonderful - but we will find ways to be creative regardless.

with aloha :)

lwaddict
02-06-2006, 01:45 PM
Have you seen how many plugins were bought from Third Parties for LW8.x to LW9.x?

Yep...how many of us already had em? Paid once for em? Then squawked about getting them for free in the next rev...go ahead, check out the rev release threads. Different names each time but the same conversations everytime.

Wouldn't it have been great if they'd have written up their own stuff at NT that was even better?

Some of these didn't even match up to others in their same category (ParticleFX vs. ParticleStorm) and now there's no support for ParticleStorm.

Not knocking all of those that have been listed...some rock, that's for sure. But I still think the development team's time would be better suited to perfecting and even fixing what they've got in-house (who'd know the SDK better?) than to spend a ton of time fixing it for everyone else to develop.

And I didn't mean to say that the SDK shouldn't be available...just not the primary focus. The SDK can be fixed or added to in the next rev...the foundation should be solid for the release.

edit: oops, cut and pasted too much there.

And the reference to "all or nothing" was my sorry attempt at stating that either there's more support for "all" third party vendors (i.e. Dynamic Realities, Joe Alter, etc...) or "nothing". I say this due to the tremendous lean towards Worley's stuff. There's more out there.

But that's just my opinion. I don't expect everyone to agree with me...our different ways is what makes this group so great.

Captain Obvious
02-06-2006, 05:17 PM
Wouldn't it have been great if they'd have written up their own stuff at NT that was even better?
Why are you so sure it would have been better?

RedBull
02-06-2006, 06:21 PM
A slightly different take than what's been said so far (since it isn't about 8 tracks or OpenGL ;) )...

Even if it said, verbatum, FPrime will support all of LW9's new features, including SSS, it would still be in question until you see it. Why?

1. That feature list is subject to change without notice. Period. If they don't get it working in time or it poses stability problems, it'll just get deleted.

2. Even if it stays in the list, oops-es happen. A Public Hub API is also in the list for SDK changes. For 9 you ask? No, no. For Lightwave 8, and it just never showed up in the actual software.

I understand your point, in regards to FPrime and Public Hub, and the OpenEXR which was also absent from the LW8 list......

While i'm not MR worley, and do not work for NT...
I WILL ASSURE YOU with my own words that Nodal will work with FPrime
What i can't assure you is when this will happen...

FPrime 2.1 will NOT show the updated changes to Nodal,
meaning a new version of FPrime will have to be made for the connection...
I can assure you that the Hooks for Worley, are completed (or close enough) in regards to Nodal.. We just have to wait for him to update it to work well with LW9. And as we know what Worleys like, it will work soon enough...
What i can't assure you is the new FPrime will be out in time for the LW9 Beta.

I recived a screenshot of Nodal and FPrime in my Email overnight..
(thanks you know who you are) And i can say it all looks promising.... :)
And no i have been asked to keep the Nodal screenshot private.

The FPrime support listing in the LW9 Prelim page was added long after the inital page was setup, and it was done in conjuntion to some dummy spitting on a list that was worried no FPrime support.....

A new updated feature list will be added this week, and a Nodal video too.

NT should be commended on Shader Sharing in LW9, because i beleive it was a major effort to make happen....

I can not speculate on how well FPrime will support Ngons, or APS or anything else...... But Nodal and Shaders will be a blessing....

Anyway it's just my opinion but it seems Thunderbirds ar GO for FPrime 2.5.

RedBull
02-06-2006, 06:47 PM
Not knocking all of those that have been listed...some rock, that's for sure. But I still think the development team's time would be better suited to perfecting and even fixing what they've got in-house (who'd know the SDK better?) than to spend a ton of time fixing it for everyone else to develop.

And I didn't mean to say that the SDK shouldn't be available...just not the primary focus. The SDK can be fixed or added to in the next rev...the foundation should be solid for the release.

And the reference to "all or nothing" was my sorry attempt at stating that either there's more support for "all" third party vendors (i.e. Dynamic Realities, Joe Alter, etc...) or "nothing". I say this due to the tremendous lean towards Worley's stuff. There's more out there.

But that's just my opinion. I don't expect everyone to agree with me...our different ways is what makes this group so great.

I agree that LW too often Band-Aids rather than works internally.....
But NT simply do not have the resources of Avid or Autodesk.
They can't have a 400 strong team developing every major bit of LW
when it competes As a Modeler/Renderer/Animation etc....

MR is a renderer built by people who just make a renderer.....
Vray, Brazil, MotionBuilder are specific too.... NT has to build a Modeler, Animation and still keep pace with MR renderer...... So there is one reason.

Another reason while plugin buyups are necessary, is to keep the 3rd parties happy, buying up TLU's plugins for example, allowes NT to simply accquire
the technology which it took Jarno several years to develop....

Not only did they accquire TLU's plugins, but contracted Jarno to intergrate them and offer insight and valuable ideas to develop the core and SDK as well... (this is a great way to move forwards) After the contract is over
Jarno can go and make the next generation of 3rd party plugins, and NT
have leveraged more power from their SDK and 3rd parties in the future.

David Ikeda was also accquired in the same way...
So we didn't buy the milk we bought the whole cow.

I agree that LW needs to get back to innovation, and rely less on Third parties
but i do not agree we should be giving 3rd parties less attention....

NT found out with LW8.x that FPrime was literally a saviour.....
It gave a renewed interest in LW, and stopped and stemed a flood of XSI FND sales and kept us using LW..... It's time NT used that for mutual advantage.

If we want FPrime3 and Sasquatch2, G3 then the SDK needs to be open...
If we want more plugin makers from C4D, or Maya to intergrate stuff like AI implant, which due to the SDK was not a possible port from Maya.

The CORE should always be the primary focus for the Dev Team,
the SDK should provide as much access to the core as possible to allow better more advanced programs to be made..... It's about evolution of the program. Maya and XSI and Max all have substansially more access than LW does.

If you look after the Core and SDK, NT will be able to focus more on internal innovation and leave more SSS, Reliefmapping plugins to be developed outside.

Dynamic Realities is still in Business, and David J Vrba is a programmer for Newtek..... Joe was a arrogant bastard, who had legitimate issues with NT and Allen not listening or opening the SDK to faciliate new features....

This is why we are now one Hair Plugin short for LW.....
Hopefully with the new SDK and core focus these sorts of problems can be minimized to not impact on us users in the future.....

FPrime is a sales opportunity for Newtek, if Sasquatch II would work with FPrime for instant hair and volumetrics in the FPrime previewer
It would instantly be so far in far of the competition, it's worth the time spent.

FPrime and Kray are two excellent renderers for LW, and give LW a GI boost that rivals MR and Vray, something the LW renderer can't do.....

If NT were to put resources to LW's renderer to match Vray or Fprime or MR...
The rest of the package would suffer as a result...

dballesg
02-07-2006, 03:00 AM
Another reason while plugin buyups are necessary, is to keep the 3rd parties happy, buying up TLU's plugins for example, allowes NT to simply accquire
the technology which it took Jarno several years to develop....

Not only did they accquire TLU's plugins, but contracted Jarno to intergrate them and offer insight and valuable ideas to develop the core and SDK as well... (this is a great way to move forwards) After the contract is over
Jarno can go and make the next generation of 3rd party plugins, and NT
have leveraged more power from their SDK and 3rd parties in the future.

David Ikeda was also accquired in the same way...
So we didn't buy the milk we bought the whole cow.

I agree that LW needs to get back to innovation, and rely less on Third parties
but i do not agree we should be giving 3rd parties less attention....

NT found out with LW8.x that FPrime was literally a saviour.....
It gave a renewed interest in LW, and stopped and stemed a flood of XSI FND sales and kept us using LW..... It's time NT used that for mutual advantage.

If we want FPrime3 and Sasquatch2, G3 then the SDK needs to be open...
If we want more plugin makers from C4D, or Maya to intergrate stuff like AI implant, which due to the SDK was not a possible port from Maya.

The CORE should always be the primary focus for the Dev Team,
the SDK should provide as much access to the core as possible to allow better more advanced programs to be made..... It's about evolution of the program. Maya and XSI and Max all have substansially more access than LW does.

If you look after the Core and SDK, NT will be able to focus more on internal innovation and leave more SSS, Reliefmapping plugins to be developed outside.

Dynamic Realities is still in Business, and David J Vrba is a programmer for Newtek..... Joe was a arrogant bastard, who had legitimate issues with NT and Allen not listening or opening the SDK to faciliate new features....


Hi RedBull,

I am always surprised by your posts and how informed are you about the nuts and bolts inside newtek

I would like to have the same sources of information that you had :D

Not joking, ok?

Best regards,
David

MrWyatt
02-07-2006, 03:08 AM
ok. when fprime will finally be able to render everything lightwave has to offer and will hopefully one day be able to render on a network, that will be the day I´ll consider purchasing it.
:)

hrgiger
02-07-2006, 01:13 PM
These new shader nodes, specifically SSS....are these custom written by Newtek or are these integrated from already existing plug-ins?