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lw3d23
02-01-2006, 04:31 AM
I heard that LW9 beta will be realeased this week, really?

A friend of mine told me that beta tester cannot discuss anything , comments about LW9 beta version in public , if this is true, is that mean for those people who didn't pre-order LW9 could not get any comments or info from other users about LW9 until the final version released?

Will NT release a full-feature list, or any video before final version released?

Kuzey
02-01-2006, 04:44 AM
That is a common practice in beta programs.

I'm sure news/videos will come out from those in a position to do so.

Kuzey

Kurtis
02-01-2006, 06:05 AM
Actually, what we said was that there would be an announcment about the beta this week. Look for it around the end of the week.

As to Non-Disclosure Agreements, yes. This is a standard policy for software companies conducting beta testing, even open beta testing. There will be a method for open beta testers to communicate with each other, but they will not be allowed to communicate about the program with the general public.

There are new videos and a new feature list being prepared at this time, and they will begin showing up online soon.

MrWyatt
02-01-2006, 06:47 AM
There are new videos and a new feature list being prepared at this time, and they will begin showing up online soon.


very, very soon, I hope.
;)

lw3d23
02-01-2006, 10:17 AM
...
There are new videos and a new feature list being prepared at this time, and they will begin showing up online soon.

thanks for your reply, Kurtis.
I don't want to offend but I have seen many "coming soon" statement since the frist announcemnt of LW 9, what is the definition of "soon"?
Can we know the date approximately,this week, this month, or this quarter...?

MrWyatt
02-01-2006, 10:25 AM
Actually, what we said was that there would be an announcment about the beta this week. Look for it around the end of the week.

I think this is what you are looking for lw3d23

manholoz
02-01-2006, 10:42 AM
I am so glad I took the plunge and bought Lightwave last week. I have not regretted for one instant my decision. I have yet to do something remotely presentable, but every part of the program just hints at what it is able to do. Vue5 infinite, lwcad, open beta, I feel totaly pampered!

I HAVE read complaints as to the limitations of the program, but I will reserve my opinions on the subject when I have enough experience in the program to actually have an educated opinion.

My current opinion is simple: WOW. :rock:

BTW, I am an ex-3dsmax user, work extensively with Autocad, Silo, Shade, Poser, Gimp, among others, started working with 3d programs since the Amiga era (snif). I was just a teenager then, so Lightwave was just out of my reach. Not any more! :D

creacon
02-01-2006, 10:54 AM
A way to communicate is important, but there will hopefully be access to a bug tracking system, because the "bug workshop" thread where you have to invent the bug ID yourself wasn't really working for me.
A good tracking system is a must if we want to get rid of the (very) old nasty bugs that are still in the current version.

And as Kurtis said: NDAs are pretty standard, we have a lot of those!




Actually, what we said was that there would be an announcment about the beta this week. Look for it around the end of the week.

As to Non-Disclosure Agreements, yes. This is a standard policy for software companies conducting beta testing, even open beta testing. There will be a method for open beta testers to communicate with each other, but they will not be allowed to communicate about the program with the general public.

There are new videos and a new feature list being prepared at this time, and they will begin showing up online soon.

hrgiger
02-01-2006, 11:36 AM
Actually, what we said was that there would be an announcment about the beta this week. Look for it around the end of the week.



So we're going to get an announcement about the previously announced beta?

Does this remind anyone else of the scene in spaceballs where they are saying "prepare to fast forward- preparing to fast forward, fast forward, fast forwarding sir....", or is it just me?

Chuck
02-01-2006, 11:46 AM
So we're going to get an announcement about the previously announced beta?

Does this remind anyone else of the scene in spaceballs where they are saying "prepare to fast forward- preparing to fast forward, fast forward, fast forwarding sir....", or is it just me?

It's just you. ;)

As I mentioned elsewhere, we'll be providing the sign-up info and letting folks know when we expect to start the Open Beta.

Chris S. (Fez)
02-01-2006, 11:50 AM
So we're going to get an announcement about the previously announced beta?

Does this remind anyone else of the scene in spaceballs where they are saying "prepare to fast forward- preparing to fast forward, fast forward, fast forwarding sir....", or is it just me?

That's funny. Those lines popped into my head as soon as I read Kurtis's post. Great minds...

Proton, please post some vids! Or at least a teaser of a teaser for a vid?

spec24
02-01-2006, 11:52 AM
So we're going to get an announcement about the previously announced beta?

Does this remind anyone else of the scene in spaceballs where they are saying "prepare to fast forward- preparing to fast forward, fast forward, fast forwarding sir....", or is it just me?

let's get ready to get ready :)

hrgiger
02-01-2006, 11:54 AM
let's get ready to get ready :)


getting ready sir.

Exception
02-01-2006, 12:38 PM
Hey chuck, did you guys do anything with that suggestion I had half a year ago to implement Bugzilla (or something similar)? This'd be a good time...

Earl
02-01-2006, 12:49 PM
I am personally getting ready to prepare beta testing this great new version! Well, I'm assuming it's a great new version. After all, there's been a LOT of prep time. :hammer:

RedBull
02-01-2006, 01:33 PM
Hey chuck, did you guys do anything with that suggestion I had half a year ago to implement Bugzilla (or something similar)? This'd be a good time...

Yeah my suggestion here is to take the Bug Threads, and make a Bug Forum..

Let users post any problems or possible bugs openly, and if multiple users can
confirm the bug, then and only then should it be confirmed in a Sticky Thread
at the top of the bug forum.....

This way you will have users confirm bugs before an offical bug submission is made. No people arguing over if it is a real bug on the Sticky Thread...

I think this would be better than having multiple sticky threads in multiple forums where any one can post, without looking at the previous bug number etc..... Better organisation.. Just a thought..

private
02-01-2006, 04:28 PM
Yeah my suggestion here is to take the Bug Threads, and make a Bug Forum..

Let users post any problems or possible bugs openly, and if multiple users can
confirm the bug, then and only then should it be confirmed in a Sticky Thread
at the top of the bug forum.....

This way you will have users confirm bugs before an offical bug submission is made. No people arguing over if it is a real bug on the Sticky Thread...

I think this would be better than having multiple sticky threads in multiple forums where any one can post, without looking at the previous bug number etc..... Better organisation.. Just a thought..

I agree. This is a good idea.

Bytehawk
02-01-2006, 05:42 PM
Yeah my suggestion here is to take the Bug Threads, and make a Bug Forum..

Let users post any problems or possible bugs openly, and if multiple users can
confirm the bug, then and only then should it be confirmed in a Sticky Thread
at the top of the bug forum.....

This way you will have users confirm bugs before an offical bug submission is made. No people arguing over if it is a real bug on the Sticky Thread...


That is part of a good solution. Although I 'd also like to see a way to track those bugs once confirmed in a more efficient database format so that when you find a bug you don't have to go through the hastle of reading an entire thread (and yep, they can be long) to see if your bug is the same as the one already reported (and if there's a workaround).

I'm sure this can be programmed quite easily in a mysql/php enviroment just like the forum database (btw i agree, the forum php application is a little more complicated). Question remains does Newtek really want to share bug info with it's customers in this way or is it bad PR to do this kinda thing ?

anyway, getting ready to get ready to get ready

RedBull
02-01-2006, 06:16 PM
That is part of a good solution. Although I 'd also like to see a way to track those bugs once confirmed in a more efficient database format so that when you find a bug you don't have to go through the hastle of reading an entire thread (and yep, they can be long) to see if your bug is the same as the one already reported (and if there's a workaround).

If it were in it's own forum subject, you could just search Bug Threads for keyword "Nvidia" for example.... This should help anyway


Question remains does Newtek really want to share bug info with it's customers in this way or is it bad PR to do this kinda thing ?
anyway, getting ready to get ready to get ready

Yeah it can be a concern to companies to publically list bugs,
and when i suggested a bug thread years back, I could see why NT did not want one, but if done properly it's only a positive experience for user and business..... Especially if program X is known to suffer from long running bugs, it is a needed thing and welcomed thing.

But i can understand the way it's setup now encourages those perhaps over zealous users try and find problems with LW. And not really track down the real problems.... And that can cause a bug panic....

By allowing people to post "Is this a bug" or "Why does LW do this" threads
in a specfic forum you will get one or two people confirm the bug, and then it gets to a sticky thread via the original poster or perhaps only accessable (to post via Moderators to the sticky thread"

Anyway nice to see the suggestion welcomed...

Chuck
02-01-2006, 06:20 PM
Yeah my suggestion here is to take the Bug Threads, and make a Bug Forum..

Let users post any problems or possible bugs openly, and if multiple users can
confirm the bug, then and only then should it be confirmed in a Sticky Thread
at the top of the bug forum.....

This way you will have users confirm bugs before an offical bug submission is made. No people arguing over if it is a real bug on the Sticky Thread...

I think this would be better than having multiple sticky threads in multiple forums where any one can post, without looking at the previous bug number etc..... Better organisation.. Just a thought..

The new private section that the Open Beta folk will be using was setup some weeks back, and "Bug Workshop" is a section, not just a thread; and we had indeed planned on putting the confirmed bugs in a sticky thread. Confirmed bugs will go into our bug database, but at present we don't expect to provide public access to that. However, the Confirmed Bugs thread will also be updated with a notation when items are fixed.

Chuck
02-01-2006, 06:32 PM
A way to communicate is important, but there will hopefully be access to a bug tracking system, because the "bug workshop" thread where you have to invent the bug ID yourself wasn't really working for me.

It's not really working for much anyone, I think. I think we were sort of making things too complicated - why have to make up a number when the posts are numbered anyway. The numbering would be gapped, but using the post number gives the bug an ID and "where-to-find-it" at the same time. And the user doesn't have to do anything but just post the report - it gets numbered automatically, and after that the post number can be referred to. Does this sound like a reasonable approach for the support section Bug Workshop threads the next time around?

Earl
02-01-2006, 06:32 PM
The new private section that the Open Beta folk will be using was setup some weeks back, and "Bug Workshop" is a section, not just a thread; and we had indeed planned on putting the confirmed bugs in a sticky thread. Confirmed bugs will go into our bug database, but at present we don't expect to provide public access to that. However, the Confirmed Bugs thread will also be updated with a notation when items are fixed.
Chuck, when there's a lot of confirmed bugs, that might get confusing seeing all those Stickys. Perhaps you should have a separate section for confirmed bugs, and a bug report that's in the "Bugs Workshop" section could then be moved to the confirmed section upon confirmation? Just a thought...

Chuck
02-01-2006, 06:34 PM
Chuck, when there's a lot of confirmed bugs, that might get confusing seeing all those Stickys. Perhaps you should have a separate section for confirmed bugs, and a bug report that's in the "Bugs Workshop" section could then be moved to the confirmed section upon confirmation? Just a thought...

Just one sticky thread, Earl; NewTek staff adds a new post to it when a new bug is deemed confirmed.

MooseDog
02-01-2006, 06:45 PM
"To kill the Bug, you have to be the Bug" :D
-Starship Troopers

Very pleased with my decision to pre-purchase, and however this gets worked out logistically, for me the end-user, LW is a better product. Unbeatable :thumbsup:

Earl
02-01-2006, 08:01 PM
Just one sticky thread, Earl; NewTek staff adds a new post to it when a new bug is deemed confirmed.
Ahh okay. Sounds good then.

LMUSIC
02-01-2006, 11:09 PM
I offer a different data collection strategy for your consideration:
[edit: after re-reading Earl's post, I think this is the same as he was proposing. So, I second Earl's idea, and . . . nevermind]

Section One: Users
One (beta forum) section for raw user input to report anomalies and 'possible' bugs. Multiple users can offer confirmations and steps to replicate the anomalous behavior. One would certainly expect a variety of input styles here.

Section Two: Developers
When an item is officially deemed to be a bug, it is moved to a second section (not a sticky thread in the same section) and the description cleaned up (compacted) as appropriate by the development staff. This may include consolidating multiple user input threads as appropriate. The posts in this section would be authored by Newtek but readable by the Beta audience.

Any known methods to avoid triggering the anomaly or workarounds to mitigate the effects should be included in the threads in this section.

Developer comments can be posted as appropriate in the official section (in the specific bug threads or general status threads) to let folks know what is up.

Items officially deemed to be valid operation (not bugs) should also be moved to the second section so folks will know it was looked at and processed.

Summary:
This approach is similar in workload to the "One section with a sticky thread for confirmation" approach described by Chuck (somebody has to either move the item to a sticky thread or move it to a different section, about the same workload), but this two section approach would assemble the mass of official bugs in a more organized and accessible structure not possible by appending posts to a sticky thread.

Observation:
Regardless of the approach chosen, letting the Beta user base know their input is valued should be the minimum success criteria. I am more motivated to do *free* work for someone when I can tell that my input was actually detected. (Even if there is no action as a result.)

Many LWers are willing to give Newtek free work in exchange for an early look at something they have already paid for. Those same people will do more free work if they feel their input is appreciated and even more if they know it actually accomplishes something.

Thank you,
Les

DiedonD
02-02-2006, 01:42 AM
I am so glad I took the plunge and bought Lightwave last week. I have not regretted for one instant my decision. I have yet to do something remotely presentable, but every part of the program just hints at what it is able to do. Vue5 infinite, lwcad, open beta, I feel totaly pampered!

My current opinion is simple: WOW. :rock:

:D

Yea Manholoz, I received my copy a week ago, after waiting for it for two months (long story). But Im worried weather we decided to buy it way to early, v9 is coming up which is better than what we have they say in v8.

But what about this Upgrading issue. Can you just get online and download the v9 version for free if you have v8. Chuck mentions that "those who are eligable" can do it, are we the ones who are eligable for an upgrade?

I did ask this in another post, but it seems I was in between high crossfire to get noticed.

BeeVee
02-02-2006, 02:56 AM
If you bought your LightWave 8 on the 1st of August 2005, or after that date, you will get a free update to 9 when it comes out. You will also be entitled to participate in the open beta if you wish to do so, plus (as if that wasn't enough) you can get a copy of LWCAD...

B

Chuck
02-02-2006, 06:08 AM
Summary:
This approach is similar in workload to the "One section with a sticky thread for confirmation" approach described by Chuck (somebody has to either move the item to a sticky thread or move it to a different section, about the same workload), but this two section approach would assemble the mass of official bugs in a more organized and accessible structure not possible by appending posts to a sticky thread.

Something to remember is that each post in the sticky thread can provide links to one or more thread discussions relevant to the confirmed bug. Wouldn't that accomplish the same amount of organization without having to have 2 sections or move threads to another section? And we can of course easily consolidate threads as needed, and retitle to clarify the topics, etc.

tischbein3
02-02-2006, 07:08 AM
Does this sound like a reasonable approach for the support section Bug Workshop threads the next time around?


yes this sounds good...

...can't wait to see, what new problems will arise through this,
but at least, it sounds good enough worth a try. :)

Bytehawk
02-02-2006, 08:39 AM
this is where it gets complicated in the forum ... : possibility for moderators to delete the post and relevant threads when the bug has been squashed in a new version. When a new version gets out, what has been resolved, what not ?

also a sticky with the latest version and date of compilation will be appreciated and eliminate any confusion i think

hope I 'm not going too OT discussing this here...

nemac4
02-02-2006, 12:10 PM
I have a question. Will beta testers be able to use the Beta for commercial work and projects?... Does the NDA include a restriction for specific uses?

fyrissian
02-02-2006, 12:32 PM
Hi Chuck,

I think some benefits accrue from a moderators-only confirmed-bug thread:

1) It's much easier to follow. No hand-wringing and Newtek-bashing clutter from the "I can't believe this hasn't been fixed already" crowd.

2) Each bug post can be edited by the mod as its status is updated. i.e. "Problem solved; fix to be available in version 9.5"

3) If behavior X is not a "bug" but "by design" or "under review", you could also post that clarification, just so it doesn't get reported 150 times by the same upset user(s) -- maybe in a "Known Non-Bugs" thread. That way he (and everyone else) can know that you've at least looked at his problem, and made some kind of judgement about it, even if it's not to his satisfaction.

Clearly, a separate, open thread where users can *report* potential bugs is also needed. But let's face it -- these just get choked with garbage after a while. Moderators should take whatever liberties they need to keep the reporting channel clear -- aggressively trim troll posts, edit out useless whining, and outright delete unproductive posts, in order to keep new bug reports on track. Some will of course cry "censorship!" and be offended, but I for one would like to see clear descriptions and no humor or programmer-bashing in the bug-reporting thread. There's other places for that. Unfortunately, we as a group seem to be unable to censor our opinions reliably, so you guys'll have to do it.

So, I for one would like to see a "Known Bugs -- moderator only" thread, and a "Bug Reports -- open to all" thread. (Titles subject to your discretion).

Just my humble opinion.

-f-

mattclary
02-02-2006, 12:46 PM
So, I for one would like to see a "Known Bugs -- moderator only" thread, and a "Bug Reports -- open to all" thread. (Titles subject to your discretion).


Agreed. I would like to be able to see a concise list with minimal noise and discussion in addition to having open threads for discussing issues.

LMUSIC
02-02-2006, 01:10 PM
Chuck - thanks for your consideration of my post. I am confident that either approach can meet or exceed the minimum requirements. Of course if there are only a few bugs, none of this matters anyway. :)

I see the single sticky thread approach as a 1 dimensional indexing solution.

The developerís workflow to maintain status and communication will either be to 1) locate the post for a specific bug and re-edit it to maintain status or 2) add additional posts to the sticky thread. This means as a reader of a thread with new posts I have to scan the entire post to get the changes (or search for my favorite bug by name).

The two section approach is a two dimensional indexing solution (with added benefits from my perspective).

The developer still has to locate the bug, but from a forum index instead of searching a thread. And posting to the bug thread will automatically group the related information together.

The users can see bug status changes by looking at the section index. If subscribing is allowed, users can get notification of changes at the bug level for their favorite bugs.

While links can be utilized in either case, I propose moving the posts related to a recognized bug to that bug thread in the developer section (rewritten, edited or compacted as appropriate) and removing it from the user input section.

This will minimize or eliminate the developer time required to establish and maintain (additional) links. In addition, it will keep the input section from filling with already processed information. If additional user input adds useful information to a bug's description, it can be migrated to the bug's thread.

It certainly would be possible to 'file' all inputs related to a particular bug in this manner (so folks did not think their input was just dumped, but even getting it dumped would tell me it was at least minimally looked at.)

Fixes contained in incremental releases would be visible through the developer postings.

Regards,
Les

[edit for typo error]

juice
02-03-2006, 01:48 AM
Actually, what we said was that there would be an announcment about the beta this week. Look for it around the end of the week.



...... you promised Lightwave 9 Q4 2005 when I was paying for it
... if you want delay I want my upgrate money back,
I dont need any new promise from Newtek if they dont accept to communicate with the userbase.
I want sure invests in software, with get ready to work after pay for it.

hrgiger
02-03-2006, 03:38 AM
[post self-deleted]Ah nevermind...

SplineGod
02-03-2006, 03:43 AM
I have a question. Will beta testers be able to use the Beta for commercial work and projects?... Does the NDA include a restriction for specific uses?

That could get messy unless your project isnt time critical :)

Panikos
02-03-2006, 08:04 AM
There is no perfect software, neither bug-free software, nor complete software.
If Newtek havent released the beta LW9 yet, it means that they are fixing fatal bugs.
Hopefuly, we will see LW9 soon :confused:

Exception
02-03-2006, 09:29 AM
Chuck:
So no bugzilla then?
That is a missed opportunity. It's a free implementation and it provides for a whole lot more options, freedom and problem solving solutions than a forum does, and is just as easy.
If it works for Firefox and other large software distributions, why not give it a shot? A hidden forums is just going to be a mess again.

Steve McRae
02-03-2006, 09:33 AM
Chuck:
So no bugzilla then?
That is a missed opportunity. It's a free implementation and it provides for a whole lot more options, freedom and problem solving solutions than a forum does, and is just as easy.
If it works for Firefox and other large software distributions, why not give it a shot? A hidden forums is just going to be a mess again.

you just took the words out of my mouth - I was about to suggest bugzilla

The forum method is clunky for both the devs and the testers. A database app designed for the purpose is what is needed.

hrgiger
02-03-2006, 09:34 AM
What can we disclose about the beta program? Because I just got the email...

MrWyatt
02-03-2006, 09:44 AM
what kind of email?
:beta:

Kurtis
02-03-2006, 09:45 AM
Please take a look at this thread.
http://www.newtek.com/forums/showthread.php?t=45302

MrWyatt
02-03-2006, 09:57 AM
YAAAAAAAAY
running around in a frenetic fashion.
:dance: :bowdown: :rock: :beta: :boogiedow

kopperdrake
02-03-2006, 10:00 AM
you took the YAAAAAAAAY right outta my mouth. easy to do whilst it's hanging open on the floor though, so no brownie points.

hrgiger
02-03-2006, 10:12 AM
Ok, pretty much that post that Curtis just linked to.

So, it's true. LW9 will have SSS. :thumbsup:

Kurtis
02-03-2006, 10:13 AM
To keep from having multiple threads with people commenting on the same thing in the same forum, please start posting about this in this thread: http://www.newtek.com/forums/showthread.php?t=45306

Thanks.