View Full Version : Matrix Reloaded

05-14-2003, 08:01 PM
Woohoo. I'm leaving in about a half hour to go see the Wednesday night preview of the Matrix Reloaded. It's going to rock.

Karl Hansson
05-15-2003, 12:17 AM
Heres one version of matrix they dont show you. Sick but funny.:D
The matrix parody (http://www.firelark.com/ComedyMatrix.mpeg)

jin choung
05-15-2003, 02:49 AM
saw the 10:15pm wednesday show.... whew... it was a long cold wait in line.

no spoilers i promise.

i was fully prepared to be disappointed by this movie. how could it possibly live up to the hype? and i was completely resigned to accept this movie as the pedestrian attempt harryknowles thought it was.

and so it stuns me all the more when i discovered that it BLEW ME AWAY!

and i have to wonder how jaded harry has to be to not have liked it all that much.

as for the mainstream critics who pan this and the original - either they just don't get it or it is far too popular to be tolerated by their pretentions in any case. but they forget that in his day, shakespeare was popular too.

anyhoo, i just walked out of the theater so i may be a bit shell shocked but man that was a [email protected]#$ing awesome movie!

there's no getting away from the fact that many elements seem derivative. there are hints of Superman1, 2001, Little Buddha and Jesus movies all over the place. and of course, i think it goes without saying that many of the themes and arcs that action movie makers of a certain age end up revisiting are those that appeared in star wars.

nonetheless, the work stands up on its own and it brings a hell of a lot of fresh and new ideas. not to mention twists and turns and revelations that will screw with your head until you get it all in revolutions.

it is probably essentially one of the best comic book movies ever made. the power fantasy, the epic battles that is nothing short of the clashing of gods - the large, broad and yet sharply defined strokes. these are all evident in this movie - like the best of frank miller's comics, it re-invigorates ageold comic conventions with a modern take that is nonetheless compelling because it remains faithful to the original appeal of comics.

the fx and action are all balls to the wall. and when the action stops, IT STOPS DEAD - and becomes one of the most cerebral expositions filled with verbiage ever to grace the silver screen.

critics dismiss it as nonsensical drivel - but i think they may be too quick. it may be much more intelligent then they choose to admit. also, because of the unbelievable intensity (and duration) of the action scenes, the pacing DOES NOT SUFFER when philosophy is indulged. hell, it's a breather!

but i will deflate one bit of hype - you can tell when the actors are CG. it's about as obvious as when it was in blade2. refined perhaps but no less instantly recognizable. it doesn't detract from the enjoyment but it's not a revolution in cgi. hell, technique wise, the original "array of still cameras" was more innovative an approach. most of the time in this film, you gotta cgi camera in a cgi scene with cgi actors with the camera moving in ways contrary to physics. that's nothing new and the last bit was something that fx people always tried to avoid.

but part of the genius of the matrix movies (and a failing of every other wannabe) is that its diagesis JUSTIFIES walking around in all black floor length coats, kung fu in such coats and yes, wild *** impossible camera moves.

its great stuff, a fantastic middle and it leaves you moist for the finale. go see it. it does not disappoint.


05-15-2003, 04:11 AM
<skips past jins post - don't want to know ANYTHING about the film>

Karl - that was very funny!!! I did a similar thing with the Kylie Minogue - Agent Provocatuer ad!

05-15-2003, 06:05 AM
Going to the 2:15 showing today! Can't wait!

05-15-2003, 08:32 AM
Uuugghh it looks too pretty for my tastes. I never really got why people liked the first one. But anyway I'm going nonetheless.

05-15-2003, 08:37 AM
Egggggggggsactly! ;)

05-15-2003, 08:57 AM
Well, here's my honest critique-no spoilers.

The movie was about a half an hour too long. Other then the opening scene, the first hour of the movie dragged a bit and was kind of fat (meaning it could have been trimmed down). Some of the dialogue was a bit cheesy and Morpheus's rally to the people of Zion made me cringe a bit. It could have been done better.
Having said that.
It rocked. Effects were astounding and the action was great. The freeway scene was definately worth all the work that went into it. The work of Trinity with the Keymaker on the back of the bike riding against the flow of traffic will make you rip the arm rests out of the chair. Just be sure to take your drink out of the cupholder beforehand.
I'll have to do that the second time around.

05-16-2003, 11:56 AM
didn't make it this week - hopefully next. as a consolation, i did watch EQUILIBRIUM - it's not THE MATRIX, but it was pretty decent.

05-16-2003, 02:10 PM
I was it at a 12:15pm Thursday:

I have to say that The Matrix IS my favorite movie. with that:

After seeing Reloaded it almost felt like Matrix II:part 1. It really felt like the second and third movies are really one movie split into two parts. The first movie stands on it's own better than this one.

Did I hate it? No!
Will I see it again? Of course!
Will I see the third on opening day also? You bet!

After talking to a few people most agreed that it was almost like a HUGE HUGE budget TV show that would be "continued next week".

One big problem I had with the effects was that they used the bullet-time slowmoe during the CG scenes and they LOOKED CG. The agent jumping on the front of the car on the highway..looked funny. The burly bralw looked like a video game. Any time they used real actors and slowed it down it looked real. When they did that in the CG scene you got a good look at "hey that is CG! Is that Max Payne? Hahaha"

It almost felt like they thought they could drop some of the storytelling the first movie had if they add in more fights too.

*****Maybe a spoiler*****

You are warned

They really hyped the Twins (Neil and Adrian Rayment) and Persephone (Monica Bellucci) considering they were in the movie for maybe ten minutes. The architect was in it for just as long.


05-16-2003, 05:36 PM
I'm not one of those pretentious critic types, and I thought the first Matrix was one of the best movies of all time, but Revolutions really disappointed me. I thought the first 30-40 minutes, with all the stuff in Zion, was absolutely rediculous, especially that Conan the Barbarian like diatribe by Morphius. Then, with all the fight scenes, even if the technical accomplishment was there, I couldn't get personally involved, because there was nothing at stake. I knew how it was going to end, and there was so much volume of action that it was just a mass of flailing bodies.

The storyline was to convoluted and full of holes. A complex story is great, but this one just didn't tie it all together and it didn't have the brilliance of the first movie.

As the movie went on, I kept hoping it would recover and live up to my expectations, and it did improve as it went along, but in the end, it didn't get it done.

Oh well, I'm still fanatical enough about the original that I will be standing in line an hour or so before the first showing of revolutions this winter, still full of hope that it will be the greatest thing ever...


05-16-2003, 06:08 PM
Originally posted by ericsmith
I'm not one of those pretentious critic types, and I thought the first Matrix was one of the best movies of all time, but Revolutions really disappointed me.


Wow you saw revolutions? Do you have a time machine?;)

Your critique disappoints me then because that sounds just like Reloaded!

05-16-2003, 06:53 PM
Sorry- reloaded, revolutions. Unfortunately, I think by the time it's over, no one will know the difference.


05-17-2003, 12:17 AM
I am finally going to see the first matrix at least on TV....
French channel2 sunday night....

05-17-2003, 06:46 AM
i just came from the theater and i was disapointed....i think that the story was really bad...the visual effects were very nice in the other hand except for the 3d clothes that lacked wrinkles...loved the hiwghway sequence......i hated all the sequences in Zion...it was wayyy too long and the aesthetics reminded me of a cheesy science fiction movie (all the "council" stuff beurkk we have seen taht soooo many times !!! (star trek, star wars, blablah)....
i dunno u but i really prefered the first one because there was not so many "explanations" of what the matriw was...meetin the "architect" just broke the mistery.. and i dunno if u felt the same thing but Fishburne was pretty "fat", Belucci as well and trinity too....should take care of what they are eatin?

05-17-2003, 07:20 AM
Originally posted by sailor
and i dunno if u felt the same thing but Fishburne was pretty "fat", Belucci as well and trinity too....should take care of what they are eatin?

Well, we wouldn't want a hero to not be thin and beautiful, because that's really important.
It's comments like that which are the reason we have fun diseases like bulemia and anorexia. Because apparantly, some people are just not thin enough.

Sorry, don't mean to be on a soapbox and am not really interested in arguing the subject, I just have a good friend with an eating disorder and it makes me sick that she has such a poor body image because there is all this societal pressure to be thin and beautiful. She's 98 pounds yet she still looks at a girl 40 pounds heavier then her and thinks that she's bigger then her. Your comments are offensive whether you know it or not.

And if you think that Trinity and Persophone were fat, then that's just as bad as a 98 pound woman who looks in the mirror and sees herself as fat.

05-17-2003, 07:29 AM
well when i said "fat" i said "fat" and not fat u see the differnece? i meant " fat"compared with previous appearances of this actors not compared to a specific standard ...Fishburne was slimer in the first Matrix...what else can i say...i suppose that u go to the movies to see a powerful and muscled terminator no? so please don be too 'politically correct"...movies aint reality and that is why we love them..this said these ladies are beautidul for sure i just gave my impression this said i'm used to see Belucci in french movies so i'm also used to see her slimer...maybe outside of France u see her less often ...remember she is italian but has a french acting career probably lots of movies that havent been distribute abroad

05-17-2003, 07:45 AM
and in a side note and not wantin to start a flame here just my opinion :) (peace!)

i think that there is preassure for everything, at work, home, etc...pressure for beauty is what a 3d artist feels when someone finds his render poor or bad...pressure is everywhere...instead of tryin to deny a reality its better to get used to it...i lost my father in a plane crash...believe it or not the first movie i just so right after his burial was ....Air Force One...it was a good friend of mine that had that excellent idea:) well i never told him that it was kind of a bad idea simply because u have to accept things ...that is life and personally find that "politically correct" reflex in USA really boring

words wont change a thing

:) hey common Monica Belucci is a sex bomb !

05-17-2003, 09:15 AM
Originally posted by sailor
i suppose that u go to the movies to see a powerful and muscled terminator no? so please don be too 'politically correct"...movies aint reality

Well, that's the whole thing Sailor. It's the media (movies, tv, etc...) that portray women in an unrealistic manner and provides sort of a quasi standard which makes a great number of them insecure. It might not affect you or I personally, and it's not of big of an issue for men but you shouldn't diminish it. I don't understand it myself, but I try to be sensitive to it for that reason.

05-17-2003, 03:46 PM
Originally posted by hrgiger
Well, that's the whole thing Sailor. It's the media (movies, tv, etc...) that portray women in an unrealistic manner and provides sort of a quasi standard which makes a great number of them insecure. It might not affect you or I personally, and it's not of big of an issue for men but you shouldn't diminish it. I don't understand it myself, but I try to be sensitive to it for that reason.

Ahhh the misguided masses of people. Ignorant to the last.

05-17-2003, 04:55 PM
HR, if you're concerned about a realistic portrayal of women in movies, before complaining about the "mandatory thinness" image, why not complain about the "karate-chopping, gun-toting, more-masculine-than-males" image that's being promoted to the detriment of women (and children)? The mandatory thinness is quite probably a self-perpetuated (ie, females imagine it) myth alongside the myth that women should have small rear-ends.

05-17-2003, 05:16 PM
I normally am not moved to comment about a movie to a group of internet geeks but I have to spit this out...

Spoilers? There is no way I can spoil what is already spoiled rotten.

While 3d artists can be thankful that CGI is so prevalent in the entertainment industry and puts bread on tables, the Matrix is a bit of a sham. It is nothing more than a lousy, drawn-out cliff hanger to dupe folks into seeing the conclusion months away. My friend started laughing when the words 'to be continued...' appeared. It was worse than leaving off at the first and second installment of LOTR - - which you know you all have seen as well. At the end of a movie, I expect some sort of resolution - - or at the very least, a change or growth in a character. There was none of this in Reloaded. I left the film feeling severely empty.

The film lacks any substance. There is no reason to anything. It is like the Wizard of Oz or Alice in Wonderland - - just a series of odd adventures without purpose. I saw people checking the clock on their cell phones when the movie dragged (often). You did not know if the corny writing was a satire or if it was sincere.

If the main character can bring people back to life, stop a wall of bullets in front of him, and fly like Superman, why should we care what happens to him or his friends? Story involves conflict and resolution. In an action film, fear of death and injury promotes conflict. There was no fear with Neo and his magical ways. What was his weakness - - why should we be at the edge of our seats?

There is no entertainment unless you enjoy mindless fight scenes. They even had to have a scene where the Oracle's boy toy fights Neo just to make sure he is Neo. Huh? wouldn't a handshake greeting do? All the fighting seems pointless. Does it really come to fist to fist combat in virtual reality to fight a computer? Good grief!!! Keanu should just drop his pants and take a wiz - - thereby shorting out some circuit and crippling the matrix.

05-18-2003, 01:05 AM
Well, each time I load LW into Ram (aka reloading...), really the interface is the same.... he he he... you should have suspected the word RE-loaded, re-money, re-bingo...

in a mag they subtitled a photo of Keanu wearing those Priest clothes... from the movie "Priest fight club".... now imagine Bruce Lee wearing those....

05-18-2003, 01:17 AM
excellent critique raymondtrace ...

05-18-2003, 01:20 AM
Originally posted by raymondtrace

The film lacks any substance. There is no reason to anything. It is like the Wizard of Oz or Alice in Wonderland - - just a series of odd adventures without purpose. I saw people checking the clock on their cell phones when the movie dragged (often). You did not know if the corny writing was a satire or if it was sincere.

Me comming out of the theatre....

"I am sorry honey, but I thought this was Matrix Reloaded, not Matrix Retarded."

jin choung
05-18-2003, 01:38 AM

if you're slamming 'alice in wonderland' as well as 'the wizard of oz' as bad examples of narrative, there's not a whole lot of common ground with which to argue the point....

i think one point that i will make is something quentin tarantino said in response to a question about whether he thinks he's confusing his audience through his a-temporal story telling - he said that once he saw a foreign film that had a totally crazy way of telling the story but because he was familiar with the director, he TRUSTED the story and went along with it in hopes of a logical pay off - which did indeed happen.

i think to a certain extent, the reception to this movie has to do with trust.

the way that the wachowskis are approaching the matrix is truly multi-media. you get a lot of background from the animatrix shorts (4 released so far) and even in the ENTER THE MATRIX videogame.

and finally, there is indeed the payoff of revolutions that may or may not tie up all the existing threads and loose threads.

but it does seem to be an issue of trust.

if you trust them, you see this work in a context of other narrative entities. if you don't, it may come across as disjointed and incomplete.


jin choung
05-18-2003, 01:43 AM

i'd also like to point out that this kind of storytelling - where you must refer to other sources for the complete story is very much in keeping with comic books - where the brothers come from.

in an issue of the x-men, cyclops may comment on that hullabaloo that wolverine was involved with in manhattan last weekend and then you'd get an asterisk linked to a footnote at the bottom of the page that says something like "* see THE HULK #123".

it's different and draws from different traditions but i don't find it bad for that.


05-18-2003, 06:22 AM
It's a shame that you watched Lord of the Rings or the Matrix if you want the story to be over when you leave the cinema. Must have been a waste of money.

Ya see, LOTR was always a triology, billed as such, marketed as such. I think the same was true of the matrix.
Now, that being the case, unless you are prepared to sit still in a cinema for some 9 hours in the case of LOTR, you were never going to see the end.
I guess you must hate 2-parter TV epsiodes as well, why can't everything be wrapped up quickly in the last minute like in ST:Voyager. "Oh no, heavy casualties, we've lost engines, weapons, taken several hull breaches, take weeks to repair" then in the last 30 seconds bingo, fully repaired ship, everyone well again, ready for more of the same next week.

Sorry, I'll take epic over harpic any day! :p

05-18-2003, 07:50 AM
I appreciate the fact that Reloaded is part of a series but I do not like establishing a payment plan with my local theater to be entertained. To specifically state 'to be continued' on the last frame was a severe let-down. When did the Death Star explode or the clock tower get hit with lightning? Reloaded fizzled at the end.

My biggest (and essentially only) complaint is the lack of story. The lack of peril for the main characters is silly. Invincibility is not entertaining. Even the Son of God was presented as a mortal in the popular epic.

I would really appreciate if anyone could explain to me what character development or story progression occurred so that I can feel satisfied. All I saw was exposition about what happened and an ambiguous look ahead. Maybe I slept through the good stuff.

An animator (or any filmmaker) should move the audience, not the polygons. I simply was not moved.

Perhaps I have never really understood the lunacy behind the Matrix. In the first episode, I was confused why they had to nab Keanu in the back seat of a car and extract a monitoring bug/worm from his belly. If in reality he was hooked up in one of those pods and being fed dreams, why would there need to be an additional monitoring device in the virtual world?

(hopefully no one was offended by my previous reference to 'internet geeks'. I speak with my own personal authority on the matter.)

05-18-2003, 08:56 AM
i, for one, am proud to be a geek (better a geek than a nerd, right?). while i am all for films that make you think, as opposed to films which exist solely to emotionally manipulate the audience, i think maybe some of us are thinking a little too much. it's entertainment, not physics. there's not a sci-fi film out there i can't nit-pick to pieces. i love THE TERMINATOR/TERMINATOR 2, but they've both got plot holes you could drive a truck thru. i plan on enjoying RELOADED - if it falls short of the first one, it falls short. as far as character development, give me a break. what's to develop? i've known people for twenty years who haven't changed (grown, whatever you want to call it) one bit. i don't watch sci-fi looking for character development, i watch sci-fi for ideas and effects. not to say character development is a bad thing, but if i want to watch something that focuses on characters, i'll watch a drama.

05-18-2003, 09:43 AM
i watch sci-fi for ideas...

Maybe this is my own problem. I really don't know how to interpret the Matrix. Is it real sci-fi or a parody? Are the filmmakers so culturally advanced that they created this drivel to mock the mindless theater-going public or do they really believe in what they have created? I did not know if it was appropriate to laugh at some of the absurd fight scenes and dialog. I was watching the park/playground fight scene and waiting for an epileptic seizure to happen to half of the audience.

Whether we watch science fiction or fantasy, we are asked to suspend some belief but there is some truth or anchor in reality to make the story something that the audience can relate to. When a movie asks us to suspend all belief, it can really lose the audience.

In terms of story and character, TRON seems to have more substance than Matrix. And ooooh, that hot young Bruce Boxleitner melts my butter more than Keanu ever could. :D

If the only reason to see Matrix is the effects, try this trick at home for free: Squint & shut your eyes really hard until you see a kaleidoscope of color. For a grand finale, punch your closed eyes with your fists. It's the greatest effect show you will ever see. And it renders in real-time!

05-18-2003, 09:59 AM
Originally posted by lone
i, for one, am proud to be a geek (better a geek than a nerd, right?).

Hey, nerds need friends too ya know ;)

there's not a sci-fi film out there i can't nit-pick to pieces. i love THE TERMINATOR/TERMINATOR 2, but they've both got plot holes you could drive a truck thru. i plan on enjoying RELOADED - if it falls short of the first one, it falls short.

Yup, that's my thought too, heck, I've seen some REALLY awful B-Movie stuff in the past, terrible plot, awful effects, lousy acting, and had a real laugh watching it. We used to have a B-Movie weekend, great fun!
I pay me 5 quid, if I spend a couple of hours not worrying about the job, mortgage, repairs & family tragedies, it's money well spent.
I have a high tolerance for bad films, if they entertain, and for my particular brain-wiring, these films are great.
Not that I think they ARE bad you understand, for me Matrix & LOTR are films I really love, I fully intend to enjoy the remainder of them, faults and all. So I guess that makes me part of the mindless theatre going crowd.
I'm watching entertainment, if I want high-brow high-drama, I'll watch an un-pronouncable foreign film in black and white :p
Or I'll go and watch Shakespeares 'Scottish' play, which I will be doing, in Stafford Castle next month, also cool! :cool:

05-18-2003, 10:16 AM
i won't know for sure until tommorrow, but i have noticed the tendency of many filmmakers, who have had one hit, to start taking themselves and anything they do after, way too seriously. worse yet, they also expect their audiences to do the same. i hope that doesn't turn out to be the case here, but there's always that possibilty. TRON - i must have watched that at least 20 times now...

05-18-2003, 12:14 PM
I really enjoyed this one. The Greek mythology and Judeo-Christian themes are thick in the series, so my head is spinning trying to figure out the meaning of the metaphors used.

But by the end of this sequel, I got a sense of meaning to the chaos. In fact, I like the direction the story's going.

Effects were awesome. Some points were the stand ins and CG actors were apparent, but overall, I was impressed.

And I just realized how hot Carrie-Ann Moss is...

05-18-2003, 01:39 PM
i believe (going by the previous film) that this is one of those you have to watch more than once.

05-18-2003, 11:18 PM
well, I've watched Matrix1 yesterday night.... sleep sleep..... too old for that stuff........ for me sci-fi stopped with Alien1.... but I do love their sunglasses, for sure the sponsor was not ripped off... really cool glasses. as for the story, ..... give me a breaK

05-19-2003, 12:02 PM
It seems those motorcyle scenes were rendered with mental ray.
do you know if any part of matrix has been done with LW?

05-19-2003, 12:18 PM
Some modeling was done in. I don't know how much though.

05-19-2003, 01:44 PM
I believe the 'city of Zion' was modeled in LW... I know a couple of the modelers. I haven't seen the movie yet, so I don't know if this made it into the final film.


05-19-2003, 02:41 PM
Okay.....talk about a loaded discussion.

I have to say I like Reloaded. I saw it Thursday night and then my boss suprised us by sending my department out to see it Friday.

I went in the first time expecting more than it could have delivered. They did a good job and I really thought it was a great movie but there were some things lacking. The pacing felt a bit off.....but the action was in-friggin-credible. The story had some major twists and turns....but I pretty much knew where it was going 45 minutes before the ending.

I have read alot of complaints about the fact that NEO is supposed to be all God like and he should be able to just wup ***. Harry Knowles from Aint-it-cool-news.com seems to take that approach.

Raymondtrace.....you seem to be taking the other side of the argument saying that watching someone that powerful is just boring. With regards to both of those opinions it would seem to me that......... Neo has been told he is the one but has to come to understand it. Also, (and this is more in response to RayMT) a part of the character developing has to be his growth into being the one. I have to say I think it would have been a let down and waste of time if from the beggining of this one he was just all powerful. It would negate the reason for the movie because he would just be able to go through and comepletely right all things have to do with the Matrix. I liken' it to something Kevin Smith touches on in Dogma. In the bible Jesus goes from being 12 to 32....so what is he doing in those 20 years....hmmmm, maybe getting his mind around the fact that he is the son of God. Seems to me that we are getting to see those 20 years rather than just jumping ahead to his being the man where Neo is concerned. He is the one and can kick major but but he still has to fully understand what being the one is. He has not completely 'free'd his mind'. He has moved to a level way beyond anyone else but he still has only to scratch the surface of who and what he is supposed to be.

This presents a much more interesting portrait of the character than if he came back at the beginning of this one being omnipotent. Was this presented in the best way??? For some maybe...for you obviuosly not. But that is one part of the story that I liked.

Let me stop now.....I can ramble much more but will spare people from having to read to long a diatribe by one person.

Feel free to disect and argue with my comments cause I am sure you guys can find positives and negatives throughtout.


05-19-2003, 02:45 PM
Originally posted by lone
i believe (going by the previous film) that this is one of those you have to watch more than once.

Definately.....it was way better the second time for me. I left the first time thinking it was okay. After the second viewing I liked it alot more.

See...it is a conspiracy where they want us to see it over and over to recoup the $300 mil they sank into making it.


05-19-2003, 08:15 PM
------------- SPOIILERS ---------------

Nicodemus, I have similar thought to you regarding Neo's progression. There are several points in the movie that tell us his main conflict is more about "why" than "how". We know that he knows how to go out into the matrix and go completely apesh*t if he took the notion, but what good would that do? It's more about finding the right a** to kick. Even if he could lay waste to the matrix, wouldn't that just kill all the humans hooked up to it? Didn't he himself have to be carefuly lured and coddled out of it, lest he die in the process?

Secondly, he isn't omnipotent-- and that's the KICKER plot twist in this one (the story substance for you, raymondtrace). The prophecy exposited in the first film is all a sham. The whole thing get's turned on it's head-- the Architect of the matrix has orchestrated the whole messianic narrative, and Neo exisits not as a threat to the matrix but rather the one thing that keeps it going, by providing a vehicle for those pesky anomalies in the matrix that build up over time to get purged in a predictable, cyclic pattern. I thought the story aspect of Reloaded was quite good actually. Just MHO...

jin choung
05-19-2003, 09:35 PM


the depth of the story and the incredible density makes for some profound storytelling.

granted, it may be that such stories may not appeal to all but i i really get the impression that it's a matter of preferences as opposed to a deficit in the story.

yah! the entire notion that the "salvation of humanity" actually plays into the hands of the architect!!! WOW!!! who saw that coming?!

actually, i feel sorry for all the christians who've been rooting for the matrix because of the depth of the religious metaphor - john the baptist, jesus, judas, death, rebirth, baptism... yup - it's all there.

but it seems that that metaphor may not be going where christians would like. it seems like the build up of the message so far is that the religious notions are modes of control and enslavement. and they give the illusion of control and choice to those who are actually enslaved!

so they seemed like they were going one way and then they turned around and did a complete 180! surprising both the characters and us!

there's a lot in this second movie to understand and to an extent, i think a great deal of the criticism levied against it is due to not understanding the entirety of it.


jin choung
05-19-2003, 09:44 PM


and the whole thing with neo's invulnerability... harry had a huge problem with neo getting injured but it totally makes sense in considering the revelations in the film!

in addition, the injury SURPRISED NEO! he was not expecting to get hurt. so that's a tip off that the brothers weren't just being inconsistent.

in addition, neo does not go around taking bullets and shrugging it off. he STOPS the bullets. but in the case of his injury, he expected to parry a sword with his palm and it doesn't turn out like he anticipated.

but one thing that IS inconsistent is that he still stops bullets. he took bullets at the end of the matrix and he overcame it. the events inside the matrix are immaterial and have no effect on the real neo - mind over matrix matter.

he does seem to take a step back from what he is at the end of the original film.

and another thing, zion is underground for security but also because it's still warm.

WHY do the machines need humans at all? why can't they just use GEOTHERMAL HEAT to generate all the power they need? i've never heard an explanation about that.


05-19-2003, 10:20 PM
----------- Spoilers Again -----------------

Personally, I think the matrix writers will have something 'up their sleeve' with regard to the whole rationale behind the machines exploiting the humans in the way they do. Because you're right, jin, as it stands, it doesn't make much sense. Perhaps there's some intimation of it in that counsellor waxing philisophical with neo about the nature of control when they were looking out over all the machines that they themselves employ to keep zion running. I think they could do a lot storywise considering the nature of the material they're working with. For e.g., consider the ambiguities inherent in A.I.-- maybe the machines need humans for more than simplistic energy, perhaps in truth they need them for something on a much more intellectual level, or even a spiritual level. What if it turns out that they need humans to tap into their creative problem solving ability, in order to safegaurd against things like their crazy program society from "crashing", -- if no one is around to reboot the system, if you will, they're screwed. They'd be in an eternal blue screen of death. The machines, we assume, were originally created by human minds after all. Maybe they're smart enough to "compute" that cutting all ties from their creators irrevocably is a risky thing to do. Maybe that's their "fear". Within the context of the discussion about A.I. it's reasonable to think there are elements of the human mind that can't be understood or quantified by a machine, and in the matrix, the machines may understand that erasing humans from existence is akin to deleting a file on your computer when you're not really sure what it does, where it came from or completely how it works.

Who told us that the humans are used as "batteries"? Morpheus, right? We see he bought into the prophecy, he certainly could be in the dark about the nature of the human/machine relationship. Perhaps it's much more symbiotic than they know. That's what the counsellor speech was hinting at, I think.

Just rambling ideas... it's what makes movies like the matrix fun, after all...

jin choung
05-19-2003, 11:03 PM

hiya psyhke,

hey, that's a good take on it.

(i have to confess that everything that i say is completely speculation and i'm just bullin' with ya [it IS fun! difficult to find people to just talk about such things without passions getting stirred though] so certainly don't take what i say and what i have said as any statement of fact from me.)

i took the counselor's convo as being more literal though. simply that we rely on machines for life (life support/etc) and they rely on us for power(literally cuz we're batteries).

but that's a neat idea though. that they make up for their deficits by harnessing humans. i guess like how agent smith got an "imprint" of the human neo. the "taint" of humans that smith objected to in the first film.

but i DO think that what the counselor talks about hints at the very nature of how the series will end however. it's what i thought as soon as i saw the "the second renaissance part 1".

but what a big giveaway!

i probably would have liked the counselor to have been less on the nose about it.

what i'm REALLY perplexed about is how neo could stop the sentinels at the end though! i have two theories and both of which would totally blow the surprise if either turned out to be right. one would be right in keeping with how i think the series will end though.

and that whole symbiont circle thing - yah, that is odd that they would reflect a motif from attack of the clones so closely. but it's more compelling in the matrix though. and i guess they share other themes (messiah being another) as well...

and the mystery of that hand cutting dude.... who the hell is he and what in the world can his subplot possibly mean? i don't think they would just repeat the judas iscariot thing would they?

fun fun fun!


05-19-2003, 11:35 PM
----- Increasingly Redundant Spoiler Header -------

... the hand-cutting dude? That was smith! Same guy that was in the scene by the phone that smith 'canabalizes' or what have you. But apparently the character (Bane I think is his name) didn't die, because he re-appears in the other scenes, hand-cutting scene included. So, it makes you think, the programs can upload themselves into brain chemical format, or something of that nature. The brain is a computer, and is initimately hooked up with the matrix, physically nonetheless, so I guess it's not too much of a leap to imagine a 'program' like smith infiltrating a person's mind....

The counsellor speech-- I take it the same way... it seems he, the counsellor, is talking in literal terms, from his point of view. I only meant intimated in the sense of the writing, a double-entendre sort of thing. If the story unfolds in that direction, I'd give the writers the benfit of the doubt that they saw that. Or it's just a happy accident.

That's the thing about movies, or any art form, we inject as much or more meaning into it than may actually be there. But the better the work, the more it allows for the audience to hang their ideas onto it, if you know what I mean.

oh, and the sentinel stopping thing, I have no idea either, beyond some wild specualtion.

jin choung
05-20-2003, 12:10 AM

HOLY [email protected]#$ING SMOKE!!!


i wondered what the significance of smith picking up the phone was - and what it could possibly mean in context of the world that has been set up!

damn, they should've made that guy more distinctive looking! that TOTALLY slipped past me!

SOOOOOoooooo, that's SMITH!

blow me away! i sooooooooooo missed that!

hah, oddly enough, that is very closely related to what i think happened to neo for that last sentinel thing to have happened....



05-20-2003, 12:17 AM
To me, there is a Matrix within a Matrix, that is how Neo was able to stop the bots at the end. And so, everyone who thinks he's human is just a program (a la Tron) with the residual imprint of the real humans they once were. Only they're not aware of it.

05-20-2003, 12:27 AM
... one caveat about the smith thing-- I've only seen it once, and it went by pretty quick and found myself half wondering during the movie if I didn't just imagine that way...

Have to watch it one more time before I wait for the DVD.


05-20-2003, 04:09 AM
Sh*t guys,
I was desparate enough to watch te film as it was, now I'm positively salvating! :D

05-20-2003, 11:02 AM
DigiLusionist, that's was my impression for what happened at the end with the bots as well. I felt that for Neo to be able to sense the bots and stop them "outside" the Matrix that he must still be connected in some way. That helps to explain why there are prophecies in the world of Zion. The Oracle, being a program herself, had inside information about the Matrix and so was able to foresee events inside the Matrix. I think the same is true for some in Zion. The two worlds are connected. The Architect himself said something to the effect that he needed a way to gather up all the anomalies occurring in the Matrix. Also remember that Morpheus asked in the first movie, "What is real? How do you define it?" The Matrix designed a second world as a way to draw out the anomalies. Many movies have a bad element using an unsuspecting main character to draw out and lead all the "rebels" into a trap in order to wipe them out (Total Recall for one). I think you're right all the people in Zion aren't aware that they are still in the Matrix and are unknowingly helping the Architect to bring the anomalies together. I believe it was stated in "Reloaded" that in the last six months that Neo was with them they had freed more minds than ever before. Hope all that made sense or that I explained myself coherently.:)

05-20-2003, 11:57 AM
On the subject of the Animatrix, anyone know when they come out on DVD? I was watching Revisited today (amazing) and I really cant wait for tomorow - Channel 5 have the Flight of Orian (or somthing) :D.

05-20-2003, 01:18 PM
Colkai....sorry for the spoiler. Skip my post and go see the blinking movie.


Okay....so I am not alone in thinking there might be a Matrix within a Matrix thing going on. Either that or this is the dawn of NEO really beggining to understand his true power and breaking the cycle.

Also....the fact that his response was so measured when he met the architect hints at him being differect than all the rest. All the others on the screens had really emotional responses. The Architect even comments on how quickly he 'gets it'.



05-20-2003, 01:36 PM

It would appear that the world of Zion is another Matrix. That is why a copy of Smith was able to enter Zion through that other guy. It's also why Neo was able to stop the Sentinels in Zion.

Also, the Architect said that they had destroyed Zion six other times before, and would certainly destroy it again. So that must mean that Zion isn't the real world either. It's also interesting that "Neo" has gone through the same journey before, six other times. Remember the other Neos in the monitor, all with different responses to what the Architect says?
Is Neo himself a program with a purpose? A program designed to make choices as humans do? Because the question is, how could there have been other Neos in past Matrixs if Neo is truly a unique human being? How can the Oracle know what choices Neo will make? Maybe it's because Neo's journey has been played out before, predestined...or preprogrammed by the Architects.
I find this series will be quite philosophically intriguing when it all unfolds. Delving into what seperates us from a machine, what's reality, etc.

05-21-2003, 11:08 AM

lets face it folks: since the time when "Mr Anderson" woke up in front of his monitor in MATRIX, I thought the whole show was just the dream of an unimportant megalomaniac hacker who had really no life and called himself NEO THE GREAT HACKER, and the whole Matrix story is just Neo sleeping and dreaming that he is THE superhero everybody waits for.
Isnt it obviuos ? In his real life he is just a nobody working in a big company, coming home, beeing alone, so in his dreams he is that superhero that goes into the computer and controls it all, gets all the girls, learns kung-fu etc.

Its all dreams, nothing is real.In Revolutions he will wake up and find out that he is late for his job, switches of the monitor, end of story.

05-21-2003, 05:20 PM
Originally posted by Emmanuel

lets face it folks: since the time when "Mr Anderson" woke up in front of his monitor in MATRIX, I thought the whole show was just the dream of an unimportant megalomaniac hacker who had really no life and called himself NEO THE GREAT HACKER, and the whole Matrix story is just Neo sleeping and dreaming that he is THE superhero everybody waits for.
Isnt it obviuos ? In his real life he is just a nobody working in a big company, coming home, beeing alone, so in his dreams he is that superhero that goes into the computer and controls it all, gets all the girls, learns kung-fu etc.

Its all dreams, nothing is real.In Revolutions he will wake up and find out that he is late for his job, switches of the monitor, end of story.

O you mean I am not alone in my thinking that this is alice in wonderland ala dystopian style? I mean the allusion to Alice is almost on every major chapter mark. :)

05-21-2003, 06:29 PM
The real reality is that everyone is in an underground city (call it Zion if you want) because of the nuclear holocaust that was created to destroy the machines. The humans actually succeeded but also almost destroyed the planet. The remaining humans decided to again use AI technology to create a way of sustaining and expanding the population until the planet healed itself and they could build a new world on the surface. Knowing that it would take thousands of years the AI machines created the Matrix for the humans as virtual entertainment. They also added the conflict with the machines as a way of helping new generations of humans understand the world that they live in. The AI machines were programmed to continue to develop the Matrix and expand it as needed to keep the humans moving toward an eventual rise to the surface. The human battery concept is used to keep the AI machines running thus keeping the Matrix on-line and the humans alive. The first and Second movies all take place INSIDE THE MATRIX and the new path that Neo is leading will bring the human population to the surface because the planet has healed faster than originally thought. In the end they will be "unplugged" and begin a new life on the surface of Earth.

Of course this is all just speculation. How it will really end only the writers know.

05-22-2003, 04:36 PM
Saw it a second time... the Bane character is definitely smith.

3D Dave - I like your speculation ideas.

It's strange they have never shown any of the A.I. machines besides the big ships, etc. Is the A.I. society only in program form, and Ship form. Or are there android type A.I. machines? Haven't watched any of the alternate media, wondering if they show any more detail of the machines...

05-23-2003, 08:39 AM
reloaded rocks - saw it Monday. i thought the first two fight scenes should have been speeded up a bit, and that about fifteen minutes could have been cut out of the first hour to improve the pace, but other than that, i have no complaints.

i didn't really notice any fake Smiths in the 'burly brawl', but it was a fast-paced sequence, and i sat pretty close to the screen.

i'm going again next week. gotta see that freeway chase on the big screen at least once more.

IN CASE YOU DON'T KNOW - there's a REVOLUTIONS trailer after the credits. speaking of trailers, that T3 trailer was looking good, too.

i'm not going to speculate on what means what, as far as how it will all turn out, but i will say this - i watched the original beforehand, and when Morpheus asks Tank how things are going when Neo's being uploaded, he says 'he's a machine.' just an off-hand remark (i think that would be an insult, considering the world they live in), or a hint? time will tell.

can't wait 'til November.

05-23-2003, 06:40 PM
The movie was very dense, and those scenes with the infamous arquitecht were too damn weird, I mean 6 other "choosen one neos?"..well wachowsky brothers are weird right? :)
I think the most plaussible argument is the matrix within a matrix (like in that movie 13th floor).


05-24-2003, 02:08 PM
Yay, finally saw Reloaded today. Man that film rocks!

Those backdoors rock, it would be so cool to be able to do that... Why all the speculating about the storyline, just enjoy the action.

My take - Neo is perminantly connected to the matrix, only just on a lower level, so he is able to control the squiddies, thats how he knew they were coming, and thats how he stopped them - he figured out how to use the matrix to control the AI.

05-24-2003, 02:53 PM
just saw it. i thought it would be better, but then again...it could have been worse.

the action sequences and fx are excellent, technically and aesthetically. together with the impeccable sound fx the big fights and acrobatics are quite a show. however, the whole movie suffers from bad editing. had the drama been played as perfect as the action this would have been a major film experience. trinity and neo are so unromantic that they seem more like bro and sis than lovers ;-)

morpheus gives one hell of a meaningless speech as the rebel leader against the empire...uups, wrong movie. at least he managed to make 249.998 zioners dance happily because they will be slaughtered in a few hours?!
but hey, am i the only one to think that laurence fishburne should loose a few pounds before doing wire fu stuff in front of a camera?

i am with the matrix within the matrix theory, but i think it would be very frustrating to the average movie goer. kind of like when bobby died in dallas.

the architects speech was a cryptical mess and badly acted out. to much abstract talk delivered like a recipee for pudding.

neo flying is amazing!
the highway scene is amazing!
the neo vs 100 smith scene is ABSOLUTELY amazing.
all the other action sequences feel rushed and too dark, similar to daredevil.

oh, yeah, the guy cutting his hand was/is indeed a agent smith copy. in that scene he was obviously exploring his new found flesh (grin).
it was he who triggered the emp too soon, and he was the sole survivor of the resulting massacre.

so, this movie gets a whopping 7/10 simply for the fantastic visuals.

05-24-2003, 03:11 PM
yeah, i thought Morpheus was looking a little 'puffy'. not quite as bad as Data in NEMESIS, tho.

05-24-2003, 03:22 PM
the whole realities within realities thing has been done before. the first thing that comes to my mind is "the airtight garage" from moebius/jean giraud. that doesnīt take anything away from the fun, of course :-)

05-25-2003, 04:16 AM

no, u are not the only one to find Morpheus puffy...i actually was a little bit flamed for that some posts befor yours..this said the Matrix inside the Matrix theory sounds possible... but sooo boring...i mean if we enter a system where this could be a Matrix inside another one it will never end...or a good scenario in my opinion is one with an end (eventhough u have to imagine that one)...other than that u already know in advance that everything is possible ! there is no more threat and the hero can only be stronger and stronger...i dunno you but i find that boring .
the Bobbie in Dallas syndrome is a good example of garbage scenario due to other issues (actor having other movies to do or the like)...of course it is not the case here but the result looks pretty much the same...people that dies then reborns then re dies etc...plus an end with a "to be concluded" stuff just give Reloaded a heavy smell of a TV series....plus the aesthetics of the first 30 mins with all this "council" and outfit that reminded me a Waterworld sequence or something...
personally i loved the first one because of the mix between 70's and eighties fashion...all this fancy outfit and the mix with Manga action...in a certain way it was a revolution in scifi aesthetics why the hell go back to cheap stuff? teh idea that a virtual reality created by a super machine could be a mix between all what our generation could find "cool" was great...

05-25-2003, 05:12 AM
I thought the 6 Neos/6 Zions was very interesting and made perfect sense - the machines were unable to create a Matrix that 100% of humans accepted so they settled for a 99% success rate and built a contingency plan for handling the 1% that couldn't accept it - even they couldn't foresee the problems that human emotions (i.e. Neo's) would create (not having any themselves).

Let the humans think they're free and making a difference as a form of containment and then when the time is right squash them and let the whole process start again. The prophecy of "The One" keeps them busy searching rather than trying to bring down the Matrix and then when they find him, The One trades the existing free humans for the perpetuation of humanity and The Matrix.

Best film I've seen since The Matrix - can't wait for Revolutions...

05-25-2003, 06:16 AM
and the code that the one is supposed to transport back to the architect? wasnīt John Difools job the same in the Incal epic (again from Moebius)?

the interesting thing is that for Matrix 1 they mainly copied asian pop art, now they clearly turned to european 70īs underground comics for the storyline.

thatīs not a bad thing. the 5th element did the same and it worked.

reloaded is european storytelling (Wim Wenders themes), asian aesthetics (woo,hark, anime) and american superhero characters (Superman, mainly, with trinity being Batgirl and morpheus Fatman).

i liked the notion that whenever we talk about ghosts, werewolves and other supernatural stuff it was actually program errors, free roaming programs and the like. i suppose that means that the matrix is supposed to be much older than morpheus thinks.

what if the matrix and zion and all is just a chunk of a bombed 2 pieces earth, floating in space like the dark city in the movie with the same name?

or a generational spaceship that transports humanity to another planet and keeps them entertained with an interactive action movie?

Haaaa....havenīt had that much fun in thinking about a movie in a long time, so much i have to admit.
alone for that i give it one more star.

8/10 for cool fx and for making me think about the story the next day (LOL)

05-25-2003, 06:40 AM
i suppose that means that the matrix is supposed to be much older than morpheus thinks.

And of course it is - Morpheus thinks the Matrix began just prior to the sixth Zion - in actual fact it's five generations older than that - between 250-500 years older I guess - Morpheus believes the year is close to 2199 but in fact must be closer to 2599 (!)

In addition, it's obvious (from Smith's conversation with one of the viral Smiths) that events are not simply repeating themselves - he says something along the lines of "Just like the last time(s)" to which the viral Smith replies (with a smirk) "not quite"

Neo is portrayed as a loner in the original movie and it's possible the previous incarnations of "The One" never had to make the choice he did...

The whole "Matrix in a Matrix" scenario is interesting but there's also the whole "evolution" scene that Smith had with Morpheus in the first movie to consider - maybe after five generations of humans being "born" inside the machine Neo is the next stage of human evolution - something else the machines could never have foreseen.

05-25-2003, 07:24 AM
i like that idea the most so far! neo stopping the sentinels may be part of a natural" human evolution/defensemechanism after spending generations in the pods.

i guess thatīs the most important part of the matrix success formula, keeping the twists and mistery high. i hope they donīt push credibillity too far when presenting the solution in revolutions. x-files is one good example of taking mistery too far.

05-25-2003, 08:53 AM
When I posited the Matrix-within-the-Matrix idea, I meant that there are three realities:

Reality 1: Based on Normal World circa 2003. Everyone is plugged in.

Reality 2: The "Escaped World" where Neo and Morpheus think they are liberated from the Matrix, but are not. They are still plugged in. This second matrix is to catch the anomaly minds that are not cooperating with the matix software. Neo is able to affect octobots at the end cause he's starting to realize he is still i the matrix.

Reality 3: The truly unplugged world that the humans are about to reach unless the anomalies are contained. Neo will lead them out, now that he's realizing the true nature of his current reality.

05-25-2003, 10:20 AM
well the wachowski brothers then has invented the "audience made" script...personally i dont give any credit to the fact they have created such an "elaborated" scenario...i tend to think that this is all just a crappy scenario that of course with a little imagination can turn to virtually anything....that way it is impossible to discuss about any descent storytelling because i've already heard easilly 10 or 15 differnet versions...but story apart it still is graphically a disaster...
I dunno what the statistics say but in the studio we have counted a 60 perrcent people that says it was crap and 40 that said it was great (i'm not takin into consideration those that thought it was half bad half good :) ) of course this is a Micro Cosmos of 60 people ...it woud be interesting to know what the outside world says why dont make a poll ?


05-25-2003, 02:24 PM
while we are at it, was LW somewhere in the pipeline?

05-25-2003, 02:27 PM
invented the "audience made" script


LOL, these are a little bit my feelings, too.

As to the fx, i thought them to be somewhere between mediocre and great. i suppose that has to do with the fact that so many houses worked on it.

05-25-2003, 02:34 PM
the smiths looked good to me, neo sometimes looked a little like a digital doll.

i am still not sure if itīs the impossible camera angles and time distortions that make the imagery look fake to the human brain. thatīs what makes it so hard to judge the technical quality of the fx.

IMHO the desaturated and recolored look hides a lot of imperfections inherent to compositing, so they got around that one with the look of the matrix. resuming, it isnīt photo-real...and was never intended to be.

the sunglasses are a really intelligent thing, too. one could almost think that the wachowskys knew that in a future film they would use digital doubles, so they conviniently hid the actors eyes to get around the 3d face problem.


05-25-2003, 03:48 PM
well if u watch carefully u will notice that there are no wrinkles in the clothes...and i think that its the main reason why he looks like a digital doll (apart from that damned "interpolated look"in the animation)...about the smiths u can spot in a couple of shots that they havent even erased the stunt men...in some cases u notice that the stunt is heavier than hugo weaving and in some other even the original faces have been kept...i suppose that they rotoscoped some 3D heads over STunt bodies...

BTW if u want to see a many interpretations movie u should have a look to Mulholland drive or Lost Highway...both great examples of what storytelling should be...

but well Wachowskis arent Lynch right? ;)

05-25-2003, 03:50 PM
Sunglasses - the Brothers wanted to show lots of things through reflections, so used shades for this. Been watching Revisited too much!

As for the CG, the bits where Neo is fighting Smiths, I can see really easily where he is CG, his dress thing (:D) never looks the same as it does in real life.

I still think who cares about the story, I really watched it for the Fight Scenes!

Elmar Moelzer
05-26-2003, 03:31 AM
Hey CB3d
LightWave was used for modeling...

05-27-2003, 04:57 AM
Finally seen it, thought it was okay, ending was too blunt (despite knowing there's another coming) HATED the love scene with Trinity and NEO, total crap, not needed, dragged out too long, typical "we need some sex in this film" bollox!

third better be something VERY special.

bring on T3 (although I imagine that will be T2, but with better effects and a few different characters)

Doug Nicola
05-27-2003, 01:35 PM
Some theories...

The Oracle and the Architect don't like each other. As the Architect says, sneeringly, she is an "intuitive" program. The Architect is pure logic seeking total perfection, while the Oracle is open to some new, messy developments.

The Architect is trying to see how to stop this latest anomaly from threatening his (almost) perfect system, BUT, the Oracle is beginning to take the side of TRULY freeing the humans. As she tells Neo "You've made a believer out of me."

Neo, whatever he really is, is evolving beyond the Architect's control. The Oracle is helping Neo in this evolution, AND she is also helping Smith to evolve as part of this new development. She sees Neo's new growth as depending on deeper and deeper conflict with Smith. Did anyone notice that "candy" the Oracle took as she was talking to Neo? It looked to me exactly like a red pill, which we all know is part of a trace program. Any accident that Smith showed up right after she took the pill? She led Smith to Neo on purpose, because she is trying to push this new evolution forward. She also knows that Smith has been contaminated by Neo, which means other programs in the system are able to partake of Neo's new genetics, again, whatever that is!

Overall, I'm with the theory that the Matrix, in large part, was created by the machines to study humans, as much as anything else. The Architect was what the machines could program as their version of God, and they also programmed what they thought of as "intuitive and messy" and threw it into the mix. Now they are letting the whole programmed soup evolve and interact with the human brain and spirit, and seeing what results.

More thoughts: The Trinity programmed by the Machines-
1. God, The Architect
2. Nature, The Oracle
3. Satan, Agent Smith

The part they really wanted to study:
4. Neo, the spirit of Humanity, which is forcing all of the above programs to evolve in one way or another.

05-27-2003, 02:38 PM
Now I'm liking that the most. But no one has thought of this, who the hell was it that free'd the first of them. The previous Neo's, the machines (on that theory) the architect/oracle?

05-27-2003, 03:32 PM
i thought it was very entertaining...a thing missing in most films today [ooh i sound old!]

there's plenty to be told in the third film..and your in sight is probably on the button..well done....you must have seen it a couple of times!

motion builder was used in the making of it i belive....which you can get on this month's digit mag.............. www.digitmag.co.uk

steve g

Doug Nicola
05-27-2003, 03:37 PM
As far as I can tell, no one we've seen so far is "free." They are all part of "the system" in one way or another. I do think Zion is part of the "fail-safe" that was put in place as part of the "real" matrix in order to maintain control. Probably the idea for Zion came from the Architect program himself.

The Architect, Oracle, and Agent Smith are all the center of an ultimate intelligent/adaptive/evolutionary OS used to run the Matrix. The machines based this OS/AI on the deepest known human culture and values because it was meant to "run" the human mind, and study the human spirit.

"Neo" and his incarnations were part of the "flaw" that has been present since the beginning, which is also not a flaw because the machines knew something like this would probably show up at some point, which is what they really wanted to study (the continual rise and fall of human civilizations). From the backstory we are told that humanity was in a decadent and "fallen" state when they created AI. The machines/AI thought, "jeez, these guys created us, and look what happened to them..."

So they cooked up the Matrix as an experiment. First, give humans "the perfect world." Humanity rebels, the machines learn a bit. Then, Agent Smith suggests "screw perfection, these guys really are a bunch of apes. Just give them Hell and let me keep 'em in line." That works for a much longer while, the machines learn a lot more, and the "flaw" evolves. And the OS/AI evolves...

Now, the next big evolutionary leap...??? Something that will aid both humans and machines, I think. Neo will meet his Shadow in Smith, humans will give up their destructive cycles, the machines/AI will understand evil in a deep way and avoid this "plague" in their own world, Layout and Modeler will be integrated, and we'll all live happily ever after. :)

Doug Nicola
05-27-2003, 05:53 PM
Originally posted by cresshead
....you must have seen it a couple of times!

I'm a bit of a fanatic about the Matirx movies. I'll be seeing Reloaded for the 3rd time this weekend. I've watched the original (or parts of it) countless times on DVD. I still notice little things in the first one that I had missed previously, and I'm always blown away with how much the Wachowskis packed in there.

One thing that irked me about some of the reviews of Reloaded was comments to the effect that "now Agent Smith is just on some pointless personal vendetta against Neo..." I think it's actually Neo vs. Smith, on several levels, that's the whole crux of the series.

But I have to say, you have to pay very close attention in Reloaded not to miss things. I almost completely missed the whole Smith/Bane angle the first time...it was only afterwards that I stopped and thought "wait a minute..."

I think the editing of Reloaded could have been better to avoid confusing things like this...but maybe it's just another way of saying "WAKE UP!" and pay attention...;) I think I'll tape record the Architect's speech next time so I can be sure I'm not missing anything...

05-27-2003, 06:49 PM
be very careful taping...did your cinema also have a large warning about pirateing anything from the film in the cinema..like a huge fine and imprisonment...over here in the u.k that's the first time i saw such a big warning...

just commit to memory!...wouldn't want you to have a trip down town for a mug shot!

steve g

Captain Zinc
05-27-2003, 07:03 PM
I basically enjoyed it, but as long as we are all being critics...

(don't read if you haven't seen the move)

I do think that in the whole movie there was only about
15 minutes of story development.

While the effects and action were interested, they action
sequences went on entirely too long which took away
from their WOW effect.

It's almost as if they gave the entire movie over to
the special effects team.

The basic concept of the Matrix is extremely compelling
and it was a wasted opportunity to really get into
the history and makeup of the world.

I was left with more questions than when I started, but
it does leave one wanting to go the Matrix three, so
in that sense it is financially successful.

I'm surprised that there was no more reference to the
actual place that humans were held in.

Who was the architect? And where did he or his race come

If the "Architect" is a being, then what's the deal with all
the computers and machines in the real world outside
the Matrix? Is he just a machine too?

Was the "oracle" just part of the trap?

How was Zion created and if it was under the planet wouldn't
there be an easier way to get there than drilling through?

Personally, I think the concept of the Matrix is much more
compelling than the effects.

Makes me think many of us could have made a better Part 2
with a quarter of the budget.

But that's just my opinion.

Doug Nicola
05-27-2003, 07:33 PM
Yeah, I would have cut the Freeway scene from 15 minutes down to about 7-10, and thrown in something there that would have been more of a shock/twist. The trucks smashing together was too predictable, and too much a rehash of the building warping from part one. I think they missed a chance here. Trinity just zipping off alone ("she's not important") was way too easy an out. I would have gone much more over the top with the motorcycles!!

I loved all of the Zion stuff though, including the tribal sex/dance scene. I think part of the point here is to show us more of "just what are these human creatures, anyways? They think they are "free" living/partying in a giant muddy cave and getting all war-mongery about fighting the machines...no, let's keep them all bottled up for a while longer, they still haven't figured it out..."

But it is just that tribal, mucky element, and what kind of fighting/evolutionary spirit that lies behind it, that the machines are also most fascinated with...

Just kidding about the taping!! I'll have to pay really close attention this next time...was the Architect actually implying that if Neo chose to save Trinity (and not recreate yet another Zion) that the Matrix (and everyone in it) would be toast? Of course, that could be the pseudo-Matrix that would be toast, and the real Matrix, whatever that is, is still behind everything...

05-27-2003, 08:17 PM
in a way, the second film really serves as a very long teaser trailer for he third film!

it doesn't answer many questions about the matrix but serves to undermine [sorry about the pun!] what we already know from the matrix 1 film........november is quite a way off....oh well!!

steve g:confused:

05-27-2003, 09:02 PM
Here's a few thoughts...

After watching both films back to back it's amazing how much they interact with eachother, for example when the agents bring Mr Anderson in for questioning the scene opens as seen from the Architects' monitors which hints at the whole thing having been orchestrated from above from the very beginning. Morpheus says if they knew how important Neo was he'd already be dead, but I think they knew how important he was and that was exactly why he wasn't dead :) Next, everytime someone hints at the Oracle being a program it is never confirmed by any character whatsoever, which is interesting. Third, while the film certainly takes a lot of inspiration from TRON it also parallels the story with religious themes, greek mythology and history which makes me wonder how anyone could call that bad writing :P Another thing I found interesting is that the Architect says that unless Neo chooses the right path and reboots the matrix it will crash and all will be lost which makes all programs resident in the matrix depend on humans too on a certain level. And since Agent Smith is copying himself crazy all over the place it makes sense that this could lead to the matrix crashing since he'd ultimately use up every processing cycle and end up in a loop, so the machines can also be a threat to themselves. Last but not least, notice when we see the matrix encoded that even Neo is made up of code, but the Oracle's bodyguard isn't which makes me wonder if there could be some supernatural powers involved as well :)

Okay, a little food for thought and now back to work ;)

Captain Zinc
05-27-2003, 09:53 PM
All very interesting points.

But the real question is why they didn't pick
a better looking woman for the female lead?

Doug Nicola
05-28-2003, 10:14 AM
Originally posted by cholo
Morpheus says if they knew how important Neo was he'd already be dead, but I think they knew how important he was and that was exactly why he wasn't dead

The layers of irony and double meanings in the story are incredible. Morpheus is the first to point out what he sees as ironic, but his whole belief system is turned upside down in an ironic twist. He really was the God of Dreams, after all, his own dream being the most deeply delusional.

I thought the Oracle herself and the Architect both confirmed (more or less) that she was a program.

It looked to me like the bodyguard was still code, but a very intense, highly energized form.

I loved how they took a long-ago, previous incarnation of Neo and Trinity (the french guy and Persephone) and pushed them into the undying, mythological realm of the Matrix. Totally cool.

05-28-2003, 11:31 AM
Saw it again. What does the Architect mean when he says

"The function of the One is now to return to the source, allowing a temporary dissemination of the code you carry, reinserting the prime program."

What program does Neo carry and why would they want to disseminate it? What's the prime program?

And why would the Architect say "Please" after Neo assumed the Mother of the Matrix was the Oracle?

I think it's good to have a movie that makes you think and leave its themes, messages, etc. to interpretation, but it shouldn't leave you in the dark about the story or plot. Maybe that's why its box office gross slid over 60% in just one week.

Elmar Moelzer
05-28-2003, 11:58 AM
You know what I did not like about the fist MAtrix- movie is that the idea of using humans for getting energy out of them is total contradiction to the 1. sentence of termodynamics which says: energy cant be created nor destroyed. So this has either been planned to be a wrong thought by Morpheus, or it is jsut bull****.
The mashines will never be able to get any energy out of humans. In fact it would require a lot (and I mean a whole lot) more energy to keep a human going (to grwo up and simply to keeping him live), than what you would get out of him in heat.
Read: The average human uses 70 to 80% of what he consumes in kcal every day just to keep his basic vital functions going, not even talking about producing that little heat or electric energy he does. So where does the energy come from that they would need to produce the food for the humans to keep them going?
They would need a lot more food to keep all the humans going than the little bit they get out of the few dead humans.
This is a pradoxon and I am curious whether it was intentional (everyone who ever attended primary- school should know that), or whether it really was in the story accident, which would detroy the whole story for me, as this is actually one of the driving forces of the entire story.
Well, we will see.

05-28-2003, 04:22 PM
I'm not so sure about that because Morpheus gracefully adds... "combined with some form of fusion" to try and avoid such deliberation from the audience, yet I think in the end it'll be revealed the machines had an altogether different purpose to keep the humans if there's any humans at all...

05-28-2003, 04:49 PM
most film go'ers who attended primary school just want to dodge bullets!...don't read too much into the reality of humans to get energy from 'em etc...just a neat film..nothing more.

sometimes you just need to sit back and enjoy...not look for the matte lines or poor textures...

steve g

05-28-2003, 05:24 PM
how many of you guys stayed till after the credits and saw the trailer for revolutions
its awesome

05-28-2003, 05:45 PM
err..i did..actually i was the only customer in there to see the trailer..other than the cleaning lady...who said don't mind me luv...
you stay til the end...then she dusted around me in my seat!

england....Hmm bless 'em.

steve g

Doug Nicola
05-28-2003, 06:21 PM
Originally posted by Zithen
What does the Architect mean when he says

"The function of the One is now to return to the source, allowing a temporary dissemination of the code you carry, reinserting the prime program."

What program does Neo carry and why would they want to disseminate it? What's the prime program?

More parallels to our world, perhaps? Every time a new "one" in our world (Jesus, Buddha, Einstein, any and all of the various major teachers, creators and rebels...) incarnates they "disseminate" their knowledge into our world, which then gets distorted possibly one way or another, and the cycle repeats and evolves.

Also possibly this "new code" is what the machines are really after, too. Actually, this is probably why they call it the "prime program." It's the main driving force of creative evolution that serves both humans and the machines in some way.

It seems that if the machines are trying to understand human evil, they would also be trying to understand human love, which is why the Architect makes a point that Neo's choice to save Trinity would be a personal (mysterious to the machines...) choice.

Gui Lo
05-28-2003, 08:36 PM
I thought the story of Matrix Reloaded was great and totally changed the previous idea of the use/need and purpose of the Matrix.

There had been 5 Neos before and they all looked the same. So is Neo a program too?

At the end Neo(and gang) is chased by Sentinels and he says that he can 'feel' them. So is Zion part of a bigger Matrix?

We see a potential assasin cutting himself after Neo has a dream about agent Smith becoming a human. So is agent smith now human or is he operating inside another Matrix?

There are so many levels to this film series that the entertainment factor tries to balance it and it seems to be over played or just too long in places. If the action scenes had been shorter there would be the danger that the film would be perceived as too ceribral and "arty".

In this case I think too much is better than too little.

05-31-2003, 07:59 PM
i think most film goers will miss what all this is about...
maybe if it were a radio play or a book they actually might see what's going on...which is nutty seeing as the whole idea of the matrix is about people not being aware of what the real deal is...
in a way the visuals mask the message...i won't win any oscars but it should win all of them..at least 1 for the story.

steve g

06-05-2003, 08:45 PM
Matrix Regurgitated

06-06-2003, 07:36 AM
It was interesting to see if I could spot any locations from Sydney.

06-06-2003, 08:19 AM
I think it's good to have a movie that makes you think and leave its themes, messages, etc. to interpretation, but it shouldn't leave you in the dark about the story or plot. Maybe that's why its box office gross slid over 60% in just one week.
Matrix is a lot like X-Files in that respect...

Captain Zinc
06-06-2003, 09:06 AM
yup yup yup...

The more I think back about my recent Matrix experience I
am left with a feeling of wasted opportunity.

The story and concept really had little to do with the movie at all.

It was all thrills and spills that only left open more questions.

What a waste. Instead of really developing the concept
and depth of the world of the matrix, it was just another
damned video game.

It could have been re-made better on half the budget (with
DV and a video toaster).

06-06-2003, 10:18 AM
Possible Bullet Time Solution http://vbulletin.newtek.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=5426