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thesir
01-29-2006, 02:52 PM
Hey all, I have been looking at Apples website and they have the new Dual core imacs out. I was going to get a G5 but the imacs are cheaper. I could spend 2.5k on a 2ghz G5 with 2 gb of ram and 256mb vid card or a hair over 2k for an imac with the same setup, 20" built in monitor and 667mhz ram versus 533... I already have a 19" digital monitor so I could run dual display without any added cost to me and save $500!!!!! That would save me enough money that I could actually afford to get lightwave. I will mainly be using it for music recording but what do you folks think?

I would use it for visual FX compositing and creation for music videos on the side.

Any input, + or - would be appreciated. :rock:

loki74
01-29-2006, 03:27 PM
Well, I think it would be great for music recording... but music recording + effects compositing + 3D animation/rendering? I dunno.

May be fine right now, but I would keep saving if I were you and jump on the Intel-based Mac desktop when it comes out and use that for your 3d/compositing work.

jahn
01-29-2006, 03:33 PM
i can say that i have 14 years with a pc and 2 years with a dual 1.8 g5 powermac.

if you want a relax platform that you can do everything choose mac.
if you want a faster renders at the same price choose pc.

but don't forget that pc's harm your psychology with crashes , freezes no multitasking and no memory management.

i can render at maya & lightwave and after effecs at the same time in a powermac, and can still use my computer :)

mattclary
01-29-2006, 04:51 PM
.......................................

KillMe
01-29-2006, 04:54 PM
cant help but feel apple made the wrong processor choice again - would ahve been far better off with amd chips but anyway

since the g5 is a dead end technology now i would go with the intel powered machine

lesford
01-29-2006, 06:27 PM
Bear in mind that applications running in Rosetta are half as fast as on the equivalent G5 machine, and despite the advertising, the average speed improvement for native Macintel apps is 1.3 times.

There are issues with plugins as well, so think twice and wait till next year, or get a G5 machine. Don't get suckered into a first generation machine.

Les Ford

Captain Obvious
01-29-2006, 07:11 PM
and despite the advertising, the average speed improvement for native Macintel apps is 1.3 times.
That's not entirely accurate. When it comes to rendering, the new machine is a LOT faster. But like Steve himself said, the hard drive won't be 2 times faster, the RAM won't be 2 times faster, etc.

Stooch
01-29-2006, 08:49 PM
i can say that i have 14 years with a pc and 2 years with a dual 1.8 g5 powermac.

if you want a relax platform that you can do everything choose mac.
if you want a faster renders at the same price choose pc.

but don't forget that pc's harm your psychology with crashes , freezes no multitasking and no memory management.

i can render at maya & lightwave and after effecs at the same time in a powermac, and can still use my computer :)


so can i, my pc doesnt even hiccup. why should it when i have dual hyperthreaded 3.6ghz xeons?

loki74
01-29-2006, 08:58 PM
Bear in mind that applications running in Rosetta are half as fast as on the equivalent G5 machine, and despite the advertising, the average speed improvement for native Macintel apps is 1.3 times.

There are issues with plugins as well, so think twice and wait till next year, or get a G5 machine. Don't get suckered into a first generation machine.

Les Ford

???

I dunno. I never read anywhere that Rosetta imparts a 50% performace hit. Also bear in mind that integer calculations got a bit of a boost... but floating-point calculations got a fairly large boost. I dont know anything about how rendering/calculations in LW work... but it seems to me that they would be using a lot of floating point...?

Furthermore, once LW is ported to Xcode, compiling to Universal Binary should be simple. (thats what it sounds like). Then you wont even have to worry about Rosetta on Intel based Macs, and on PowerPC based Macs, we can all celebrate that were will get a speed incrase from compiling with Xcode.

AMD chips would be nice, I guess. But it is what it is, and I am grateful for the speed increase. (Well, I will be once I get an Intel based Mac)

Captain Obvious
01-29-2006, 09:30 PM
I never read anywhere that Rosetta imparts a 50% performace hit.
How big the performance hit is varies greatly from application to application. Cinebench rendering is much slower in Rosetta on the new Mac than natively on the G5 iMac, even though the new one is as much as three times faster in some raytracers.

cresshead
01-30-2006, 11:21 AM
are there any windows pc that use the INTEL core dual chip yet...i'd wait for a intel core dual based winxp laptop and then compare THAT to a APPLE laptop.......

fair's fair! :D

:beta:

Captain Obvious
01-30-2006, 01:30 PM
Dell and Acer have Core Duo laptops, I believe. Don't know if they're shipping yet, though.

dablan
01-30-2006, 10:02 PM
i can say that i have 14 years with a pc and 2 years with a dual 1.8 g5 powermac.

if you want a relax platform that you can do everything choose mac.
if you want a faster renders at the same price choose pc.

but don't forget that pc's harm your psychology with crashes , freezes no multitasking and no memory management.

i can render at maya & lightwave and after effecs at the same time in a powermac, and can still use my computer :)


Very well said. :jam:

Kuzey
01-30-2006, 10:42 PM
I don't care about all that...I just want to know LW works on the new Macs.

:D

Kuzey

thesir
01-31-2006, 01:03 AM
exactly.

If I can run lightwave and make some basic 3d effects for a music video than I will be happy. Besides, its not like I dont have a big enough learning curve to conquer. It will take me a year before I am ready to make my video anyway and Lightwave will be universal binary by then (I hope) so getting the new IntelMac isnt so bad after all?? ;)

Thanks for all the input, I still havent made up my mind but its great to get the discussion going. Is there a timetable on Lightwave going IntelMac native?

Alliante
01-31-2006, 09:12 AM
Dell and Acer have Core Duo laptops, I believe. Don't know if they're shipping yet, though.

I'll have my Acer 8200 in about the 17th, quite a good price too (except I had to pay sales tax--which I would have done if I had purcashed through the Apple Store).

I almost purchased a MacBook Pro (big 'un), but I'd have to reinvest for my current software base (Sonar, Sony audio & video software) to make the Mac usuable on my level for my music.

I've not a problem with XP's stability or it's 'lack of response', the only lack of response I've ever had in Windows was with a few Windows applications (including (and primarily) Lightwave), the acual OS ran just fine (--especially if I made the cpu hodding app run at below average priority).

I'm a *nix lover, but Windows XP has a bad rep due to the 9* series' instability.

thesir
01-31-2006, 09:49 PM
well, my mind has wandered a bit and I went to alienwares site.... holy crap.

dual 64 bit 3 ghz processor
2Gb ram
Dual 256mb vid card
160gb HD
+ random other enhancments for 2,500....

Pros : way more bang for my buck, very expandable, good support

Cons: Being stuck in the beurocracy that is WinXP for the rest of my computing days, forever and ever, Ramen.

This also cramps my music program use, since the program I want to use, Digital Performer, only runs on Mac.

Someone just shoot me and get it over with!!!! ;)

Captain Obvious
02-01-2006, 12:50 AM
Bang for the buck with Alienware? Hah, that made me laugh. :)

Anyway, that dual 3GHz machine is a dual (dual-core?) Pentium/Xeon machine. It won't outperform a dual 2GHz G5.

thesir
02-01-2006, 02:17 PM
are you sure??? :confused: I'm not a computer master or anything but your telling me a 3ghz processor will not outperform a 2ghz processor? I know the architecture is different but your saying if I put this computer setup against a 2ghz G5 with the same hardware it wouldnt be faster???

Alliante
02-01-2006, 03:47 PM
This also cramps my music program use, since the program I want to use, Digital Performer, only runs on Mac.

There are quite a few good Windows based music composition programs. Cakewalk Project 5, Fruity Loops, even Acid

mattclary
02-01-2006, 06:24 PM
are you sure??? :confused: I'm not a computer master or anything but your telling me a 3ghz processor will not outperform a 2ghz processor? I know the architecture is different but your saying if I put this computer setup against a 2ghz G5 with the same hardware it wouldnt be faster???

He was saying bang for buck. The machine might be fast, but you will pay through the nose. You are better off building it yourself if that's a viable option.

dwburman
02-01-2006, 10:08 PM
I'd seriously do some research into the software you plan on using on the intelMacs. You may want to contact the Digital Performer people. If they don't have a native intel version you may want to wait some more. I've heard (and I don't know how accurate this is) that PowerPC apps that require critical timing (like audio software) won't work very well on the intel macs.

Captain: Are you seriously saying that G5's outperform Xeons? I thought your claim was a bit suspect but then I went over to http://www.blanos.com/benchmark/ to see the benchmarks and looked through the different top ten sections. Few intel processors show up there. Of course, he didn't say the alienware box was an intel. After looking at the benchmarks I'm thinking my next workstation might have to be an AMD box... unless I switch to Mac. I suppose I'll still have my PC around if I want to use PC only plugins and apps...

Captain Obvious
02-01-2006, 11:52 PM
are you sure??? :confused: I'm not a computer master or anything but your telling me a 3ghz processor will not outperform a 2ghz processor? I know the architecture is different but your saying if I put this computer setup against a 2ghz G5 with the same hardware it wouldnt be faster???
A moped engine running at 8000 RPM isn't more powerful than a big diesel running at 1000 RPM. A 3GHz Pentium 4 isn't faster than a 2GHz G5. In fact, it's a bit slower. A 3GHz dual-core Pentium 4 is more than a bit slower than a 2GHz dual-core G5, for the most part (it depends on what you do with it, obviously). Intel's dual-core P4s are fairly lackluster.



Are you seriously saying that G5's outperform Xeons?
No, I'm saying they outperform dual-core Pentium 4s. ;) They seem to be about on par with Xeons.



Of course, he didn't say the alienware box was an intel.
There are no 3GHz CPUs that AREN'T Intel, so...



I've heard (and I don't know how accurate this is) that PowerPC apps that require critical timing (like audio software) won't work very well on the intel macs.
Rosetta works great on some kinds of code, but I suspect that audio code is not one of them.

cresshead
02-02-2006, 01:12 AM
macs are great for audio, video and print/layout/photoshop stuff..i have a mac and a few pc's...i would NOT want to ONLY have a mac.

pc's give you more options for apps, plugins and cost.

mac with ilife, final cut express is hard to beat for video/dvd production on a budget....esp a mac mini setup [that's what i have]

:D :lwicon:

thesir
02-02-2006, 01:55 PM
Thanks for the clarification Obvious. I guess I was wrong to assume that since it was a whole Ghz faster it should atleast be a bit faster. I know the G5 chips are amazing but I guess I didnt give them enough credit.

Thanks to everyone who commented so far. I never thought about the whole Rosetta thing affecting audio in that way and that is something I will have to look into! Man would I be pissed off if I spent all the money on a program that didnt work right, or I had to wait 3 months to get a native version.

MikeMD
02-02-2006, 02:35 PM
but don't forget that pc's harm your psychology with crashes , freezes no multitasking and no memory management

Don't need memory management, multitasking has always been way ahead on windows, and what are freezes and crashes.

You guys must be using some special pcs with special versions of windows assembled in Zimbabwe if you think pcs still freeze more than macs ( I've had maybe 2 freezes total on 3 different pcs in the last year, running XP and Win2kpro. And one of those freezes is a bug in Lightwave that can be duplicated every time, so that really leaves one freeze in 3 machine years ).


Anyway, that dual 3GHz machine is a dual (dual-core?) Pentium/Xeon machine. It won't outperform a dual 2GHz G5.

It will and it has, but it's besides the point, you could get a 3.6 ghz for the same price as 2 G5s, so come on guys, even your god Steve Jobs has admitted defeat and went with Intel. It's time to give it up. Apple is mostly crap. Go with AMD and be happy.

Captain Obvious
02-02-2006, 02:38 PM
multitasking has always been way ahead on windows
Exposť makes me disagree with that.

MikeMD
02-02-2006, 02:55 PM
i can render at maya & lightwave and after effecs at the same time in a powermac, and can still use my computer

A couple of months ago I had to run 4 instances of XSI rendering animated characters, Lightwave rendering backgrounds, while at the same time working in Flash and Fireworks.

And it was a single athlon 3000+ with only 1GB of Ram. No hickups whatsoever. So what exactly is your point?

I do have one though. I can duplicate your example, but you can't duplicate mine , see............. no XSI on Macs.

Captain Obvious
02-02-2006, 03:27 PM
I do have one though. I can duplicate your example, but you can't duplicate mine , see............. no XSI on Macs.
I think there's a reason this thread is in the NewTek forums, and not the Softimage forums...

thesir
02-02-2006, 04:02 PM
Does anyone have any recommendations as to where I should get a PC from??
I have been doing alot of research on my own but its all sort of running together on me. Too bad there really arent any custom Mac places... or are there?

On a side note: My intent in making this thread wasnt to start a PC v Mac debate people!!!! :thumbsdow I love both platforms, im just trying to get the best computer possible. If anyone has any spare time and cares to recommend me a computer for $2500 that they think is well worth the money go for it, dont give meaningless baseless "mines bigger than yours" examples and "I was doing this and this and this on my computer ALL AT THE SAME TIME!!! whoa dude! Your computer SuXoR I am L337!!!!" style postings if you would be so kind.

Captain Obvious
02-02-2006, 04:13 PM
Too bad there really arent any custom Mac places... or are there?
Ebay? ;)

Want a Mac? Buy a Mac. Want a PC? Buy a PC. It's really just a matter of your personal tastes, so we can't (and shouldn't) decide for you.

thesir
02-02-2006, 04:23 PM
agreed 100%, BUT most of you have more experience with computers in general than I do. I didnt mean to frusturate anyone or waste anyones time with this thread but it seems like most of you know far more than me. I simply posed a question and now its all off topic (mostly my fault) and it could turn ugly at any moment. My apologies. I just want a good deal... can you blame me? I wouldnt want any of you to pay way more than you would have to for something if I knew it was too pricey and I could help you avoid it.

Captain Obvious
02-02-2006, 04:32 PM
The new iMacs are pretty darned good, but there is the problem of universal binaries... Apple are in the middle of a fairly rough transition right now, so if you're relying on old software, now is perhaps not the best of times to "try the whole Mac thing." If you're comfortable with Windows, perhaps it's best you stick with it until the whole transition mess is over and done with, and then you try a Mac. Or you could, if you can afford it, buy an Intel iMac or Macbook or something to use for non-3D stuff. That way, you'll get a good chance of finding out whether or not you like Macs, and at the same time not have to worry about universal binaries.

MikeMD
02-02-2006, 07:44 PM
If anyone has any spare time and cares to recommend me a computer for $2500

Go to new egg ( after a little research ) and buy parts to assemble a pC yourself. You can build a great PC not for $2500, but $1500 especially if yoiu can use some of the parts you already have.

Athlon X 2 4800+ and 939 Motherboard are probably the best bang for buck. Get a decent ( $200 ) nvidia video card. Spend $250 - $300 on a nice Lian li case and Enermax power supply, Hard disk, go with Raptors, memory: Corsair value ram. That's about it, will embarass a G5 costing twice as much. And I'm not saying this because I want to turn this into a PC vs Mac debate, but buying stuff from a guy/company who's been telling us for 12 years how Macs were 5 times faster than outdated Intel tech, then after installing that same Intel tech into Macs he is now saying the new Macs are 5 times faster than the old. That would mean Intel managed to gain 25 times speed in about a year.

Buying ANYTHING from a guy/company who makes claims like this, you gotta be insane.

riki
02-02-2006, 07:58 PM
My poor G5 took some damage recently. I have to cut back on my Lightwave usage :)

NanoGator
02-02-2006, 07:59 PM
Argh. No Mac/Intel binaries for Photoshop until 07. :thumbsdow

thesir
02-02-2006, 10:21 PM
Wow, thats horrible! This whole thing is narrowing down quickly.

riki
02-02-2006, 10:39 PM
Look what just arrived today's mail. Now what am I going to put in it :devil:

thesir
02-02-2006, 11:38 PM
I went to newegg and here is what I came up with after lookin around for a bit.


ASUS A8N32-SLI Deluxe Socket 939 NVIDIA nForce4 SLI X16 ATX AMD Motherboard - Retail
$229.00


GIGABYTE 3D AURORA GZ-FSCA1-ATB Black Aluminum ATX Full Tower Computer Case - Retail
$149.99


VANTEC ICEBERG DDR-A1A Aluminium RAM Heat Spreader - Retail
4x $18.20


ARCTIC COOLING Silencer64UltraTC L 87 x 87 x 33 mm Blue LED Light Cooling Fan - Retail
$22.99


Western Digital Raptor WD740GD 74GB 10,000 RPM Serial ATA150 Hard Drive - OEM

$155.00 -$5.00 Instant
2x $300.00

CORSAIR ValueSelect 2GB (2 x 1GB) 240-Pin DDR2 SDRAM DDR2 667 (PC2 5300) Unbuffered System Memory Model VS2GBKIT667D2 - Retail
2x $338.00

Microsoft Windows XP Professional X64 Edition 1 package - OEM
$142.95

AMD Athlon 64 X2 4800+ Toledo 1GHz FSB Socket 939 Dual Core Processor Model ADA4800CDBOX - Retail
$635.00

POWERCOLOR 1900XT512MB retail Radeon X1900XT 512MB GDDR3 PCI Express x16 Video Card - Retail

$534.00

ENERMAX Liberty ELT620AWT ATX12V 620W

$174.99

Total: $2545.14

Missing anything? Any suggestions?

This may be a bit of overkill.... I mean I will be using it for music recording mostly but when I get into lightwave more and plan to make music videos for me and other people and maybe do a feature film, all with good FX and do all the video editing with this machine, PLUS playing all the awesome new next gen games coming out at full EVERYTHING.... seems like a sweet setup to me! Could even do Crossfire with the GPU's in the future if I ever feel like dropping another $600 on another vid card... LOL... the thought of 1GB of video mem makes me giddy... :dance:

EDIT: LOL forgot about DVD drives and shizzle... alwell... guess I can just take the ones out of this computer.

MikeMD
02-03-2006, 01:20 AM
Video Card is overkill, and you are better off with nvidia ( I'd save about $300, at least, there )

There are a few versions of the CPU running at 2.4 ghz, you could shave off another $100

Motherboard seems a bit too much, and do you need two raptors?

Power supply is probably overkill too. If it's good you don't need 620W, unless you reall want to pack it with a couple of vid cards, a couple of raptors, etc...

Don't you already have windows? ( save $150 ). I'd wait on 64 bit windows

So you may easily get under $2000 if you don't need all of those. But then again, if saving money is not that important, might as well go with all that.

Also depending on what you will be using as your audio interface, first check for any potential problems.

We use RME fireface and it actually works better with older motherboards with nForce2 chips ( although most problems reported with new chipsets are with single core cpus ). Never had problems with ours. Also see 64 bit windows remark above, you may not have drivers available for your interface.

mattclary
02-03-2006, 05:32 AM
POWERCOLOR 1900XT512MB retail Radeon X1900XT 512MB GDDR3 PCI Express x16 Video Card - Retail

$534.00


nVidia has better SLI and better OpenGL support (if you plan to use this for LightWave at all). You could get 2 GF7800GTs for $578.


Ummm... Do you know how to build a computer?

It looks like you just went through and picked the most expensive item from every category with no thought whatsoever. The memory you selected WONT EVEN WORK ON THAT MOTHERBOARD!!! :rolleyes:

And don't waste money on heat spreaders for RAM. Based on the fact that missed the whole RAM type, you definitely should not consider over clocking.

If you are in a contest with yourself to see how insane amount of money you can spend to get an Uber-Rig, then consider getting a dual Opteron mobo with TWO dual core Opterons. You can get a dual Opteron board for about the same price you were about to piss away on that overpriced single socket XXXTreeeme Super Board.

If you ditch the retarded choices and just get a really good video card, standard memory, etc... You could probably build it for close to the same price and have a true hotrod that would kick the sh*t out of anything out there.

thesir
02-03-2006, 01:36 PM
This is why I love this place. Dont pull any punches here. No.. I dont know how to build a computer thank you very much. :D I could put one together, but picking out the parts... well... you can see its not my forte. THanks for the advice. I wanted to spend $2500. SO when it came to some of the stuff I said "well... its expensive... but I still have alot of room before my limit" so I added it to my list anyway. This is by no means a final draft of my shopping cart but I guess I was a bit off in some places that I wasnt aware of, thanks for pointing that out! :thumbsup:

mattclary
02-03-2006, 01:58 PM
Sorry, I should have been a little more gentle! ;) Hope I didn't hurt your feelings.

When looking at motherboards, read the feature list carefully. Make sure to note what type of memory it uses, what video slots it uses, does it support SATA, that type of stuff.

www.anandtech.com is a good place to research varying technologies.

Don't buy into the hype of stuff like "matched pairs" of memory and such. As long as you aren't going to overclosk, just get some "value memory" that matches the board's spec and is made by a good company like Crucial, Kingston, Mushkin, etc...

Post your list here and we will give you feedback. Do you have any friends who can help you assemble the machine? It's really not hard, but when you lose your cherry, it might be handy to have help. ;)

thesir
02-03-2006, 02:30 PM
LOL Matt, I wouldnt say you where mean to me, stern would be a better word. Its all good. Heres a newer list.


1 ASUS A8N-SLI Premium Socket 939 NVIDIA nForce4 SLI ATX AMD
$166.99


1 GIGABYTE 3D AURORA GZ-FSCA1-ATB Black Aluminum ATX Full Tower $149.99


1 LITE-ON Black ATAPI/E-IDE DVD Burner With LightScribe and 5X DVD-RAM $52.99


1 Western Digital Raptor WD740GD 74GB 10,000 RPM Serial ATA150 Hard
$150.00


1 Microsoft S51-00001 2-Tone PS/2 Wireless Ergonomics Keyboard Mouse $82.00


2 CORSAIR ValueSelect 2GB (2 x 1GB) 184-Pin DDR SDRAM DDR 400 (PC $319.98


1 ENERMAX Liberty ELT620AWT ATX12V 620W Power Supply - Retail
$174.99


1 AMD Athlon 64 X2 4400+ Toledo 1GHz FSB Socket 939 Dual Core Processor $463.00


2 ASUS EN6800GT/2DT/256MB Geforce 6800GT 256MB GDDR3 PCI Express $478.00

I went with a cheaper processor (from 2.4 to 2.2 saved me $200, and from what I hear it wont make much of a difference) saved $100 going with 2 6800's (thanks matt) and I actually was dumb enough to research dual processor Opteron boards... yeah... thats a bit over my budget. Grand total on all the above: $2037.94 Leaving me just enough money to rationalize getting Lightwave! ;)

Edit: My dad actually built the computer I am using now for me about 2 years ago. I opened it up last night and looked around and it seems as soon as i get the mobo put in the rest I have done in the past. If need be he can help me out! :thumbsup: