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bill0287
01-27-2006, 10:23 AM
I am just curious how everyone feels about the current upgrade price policy?
(disregard the "freebies" that are offered as early incentives - freebies that not everyone needs or even wants - I am talking about the general upgrade costs)

(warning: rounded numbers to follow)

Now that the base price of LW has been cut in half, should the upgrade price receive similar treatment? When the cost of the program was $1600, I believe the upgrade was $500...that's less than 33% the cost of the program...okay, maybe that's fine (even though I think 25% would build more customer loyalty).

But now the program costs $800, and an upgrade costs $400 - that's a whopping 50% of the base cost of the program. Not too mention a full seat of XSI foundation costs only $100 more than that.

Other programs seem to be in that 30-40% range.

Does that seem high to anyone else, or is just me...

'waver since 4.0

Wickster
01-27-2006, 10:45 AM
IMO I think the price is just fine. $400 is mighty good considering you get what you pay for. 3D softwares have always been expensive. Newtek probably loses more money if you're new to LW and had to buy the full version for a measly $800. I think having $400 for an upgrade will try to compensate for that.

Also consider that the "Educational Version" of LW is less than the upgrade price and purchasing a commercial upgrade makes it equivalent to a full commercial version. But I don't know it kinda seems wrong to pay $200 for an upgrade to LW, but thats just me.

mattclary
01-27-2006, 10:46 AM
What you fail to point out is the upgrade for XSI is once again $495, or 100% of the price! What a rip-off!!!

No, I don't think the upgrade price is to high for LightWave. I tested XSI out and feel my money is better spent on LightWave, but that's just my opinion.

trygve
01-27-2006, 10:47 AM
I don't think the upgrade price is too high. When I bought the pre-LightWave 9.0 update, I also knew I would get every upgrade free until LightWave 10 is released. This is not the case for most software you buy.

DigiLusionist
01-27-2006, 10:53 AM
The upgrade price is just fine. NT is already selling LW at a great price. The upgrade price is very very good.

hrgiger
01-27-2006, 10:57 AM
I think maybe it's just you.

If you've been a waver since 4 then you'll see that the price of Lightwave has dropped dramatically from $2500 to the now current price of $800. I'm not sure this should mean that the upgrade price should follow a certain precentage behind a new version. From your standpoint, you should look at it as the upgrade price has not only not risen in the time you have been using Lightwave, it has actually decreased. And yet there have been many improvements in that time and it now costs you less to upgrade. Is it perhaps you're just upset that you didn't get to buy Lightwave at the price that it now is? I feel the same but no sense crying over spilled milk. I should have bought stock in google but unfortunately, I still have to work for a living.

I don't think that you should really disregard the freebies as they have a dollar amount attached to them. Usually, they are offered as incentives for people to upgrade and now they are getting a lot more value for their money. Sure, not everyone needs or wants the freebies but not everyone wants every new feature in Lightwave either so it's about the same thing.

Sure you can get a seat of XSI foundation for $100 more but this is a version of XSI which will probably never get certain features or why else would you buy the full version? Lightwave has no such limitations on future development. Also, you only get two render nodes for XSI foundation and with Lightwave, you're licensed to more then you'll ever use.

spec24
01-27-2006, 11:08 AM
If you've been a waver since 4 then you'll see that the price of Lightwave has dropped dramatically from $2500 to the now current price of $800.

version 4 cost $795 when it was released which is why I purchased it. So we've come full circle. My upgrade to 5.0 was $495 or so. Skipped six. Seven was $495 again, 8 was the same, now 9 is $395. Plus plugins...carry the one.... holy cow, I've spent $723 thousand dollars!... Wait, that can't be right.

Earl
01-27-2006, 11:14 AM
The upgrade price is just right. If it were any lower I would feel like I was ripping NewTek off each time I upgraded. At present I feel NewTek is giving me a good deal without sacrificing their resources for development. I want the software I use daily to continue to get more powerful and more flexible. :lwicon:

ted
01-27-2006, 11:19 AM
Consider this. I'm upgrading my last computer to XP. Microsoft offered me an "upgrade" or extra seat for $269.00.
I bought the entire XP Full version for $89.00.

LW_jackn
01-27-2006, 11:43 AM
Well...

If you ask me... :p

NT offered me an upgrade from LW 5.6c to 8.3 for $295! Sure it was a special offer to pull in older users, but they sure as heck didn't have to offer it!

It's my guess a few people in the 6.x and 7.x era would be pissed off by that...

I think they are doing just fine. You have to pay to play...

Only thing I wished I had done was wait just a tad longer and I could have gotten VUE 5 for an extra $100 ! :D But that's my problem.

Anyway, my point of view... *shrugs*

richcz3
01-27-2006, 11:53 AM
I've been using LW since version 4 as well. Considering the free point releases, no other package comes close. I seriously looked at the XSI and Maya just before LW8's release and realized just how much ownership of both programs were over Lightwave. The grass is always greener on the other side.

BazC
01-27-2006, 12:18 PM
I agree, I just moved over to Lightwave from Cinema BECAUSE of the upgrade policy. It would have cost me £200 to upgrade my C4d 8.5 base app (no radiosity, no HDRI no DOF etc) to C4d 9.0. I missed that one. When C4d 9.5 came out the upgrade cost went up to £350! Bare in mind C4d core app is very limited compared to LW. If I understand correctly you can upgrade ANY version of LW to the latest for £299. That's a great deal in my opinion! :thumbsup:

spec24
01-27-2006, 12:51 PM
one side effect of Newtek's price drop is that people interpret it very badly. Let's say for example Ferrari dropped the price of their car from $200,000 to $20,000. No one would buy it. Well - they might, but everyone else would make fun of them. I'm doing some work for a guy currently who did in fact buy LW but told me how he feared that the change in price must mean hard times are upon Newtek - he was really concerned whether he made the right choice.

mattclary
01-27-2006, 01:03 PM
I think maybe it's just you.


LOL! Dude, you just crack me up, I knew you would say that!

hrgiger
01-27-2006, 01:07 PM
one side effect of Newtek's price drop is that people interperet it very badly. Let's say for example Ferrari dropped the price of their car from $200,000 to $20,000. No one would buy it. Well - they might, but everyone else would make fun of them. I'm doing some work for a guy currently who did in fact buy LW but told me how he feared that the change in price must mean hard times are upon Newtek - he was really concerned whether he made the right choice.

Oh boy, another car analogy...

Does the ferrari go just as fast as it did when it was $200,000? Does it have all the same features and look? Then I say buy the ferrari. The fact that people assume something is of lesser value because it costs less is A) exactly what's wrong with people and B) purely psychological. People need to get over their elitism and use what works instead of constantly keeping up with the Jones's.

I'm not saying your wrong that people don't see a price drop as negative, I'm just saying they're dumb, that's all and they need to start thinking on their own and worry less about what the flock thinks of them.

Puguglybonehead
01-27-2006, 01:08 PM
I think the upgrade price of $395 is a good deal. It's $100 less than Maxon would charge me for an upgrade to C4D (base-app only). Because I quit upgrading C4D a few years ago, it would cost me even more than that. And as BazC said, that is just the upgrade price on a very function-limited version of C4D. Lightwave includes so much more than most other 3D apps do in their basic suite. I think it's the best deal there is. I'll gladly pay Newtek's upgrade price when upgrade time comes again.

hrgiger
01-27-2006, 01:10 PM
LOL! Dude, you just crack me up, I knew you would say that!

Well, it wasn't an attempt to be rude by any means. I just try to be direct and to the point.

richcz3
01-27-2006, 01:29 PM
Hey thats a car analogy actually works.
I know of one person that questioned the upgrade pricing policy and associated it with overall value of Lightwave as a serious app. Some (if not many) associate cost with quality. Worse, is the addage, "You get what you paid for." In lightwaves case none of those apply.

That said, I believe there is a breaking point in price reductions beyond the obvious financial implications.

mattclary
01-27-2006, 01:30 PM
I just try to be direct and to the point.

That's the quality I find so predictable and endearing! :thumbsup: I ALMOST said it myself. ;)

p.s. I saw your post on CG Talk after the PM I sent you. I rolled around on the floor for a while with that one too! :lol:

Exception
01-27-2006, 01:44 PM
OThe fact that people assume something is of lesser value because it costs less is A) exactly what's wrong with people

That's just so true.
And so funny... whoeha!

But really... as far as the car analogy goes... getting a Ferrari for free is even not a good idea. Its engine will break after two runs to the supermarket and the gearbox will drop out the minute your dog barks at it. LW is no ferrari, as Ive been working at least all day today without having a single crash.

Beaker
01-27-2006, 02:06 PM
Ok, since everyone else is doing car analogies...

Forgive me if this one has already been done.

You are a paper delivery person. You have to get out all the papers for the subdivision you handle, and you have to get them out before people get up in the morning. Now you may be really successful at delivering papers and have a lot of money to throw around, but which are you going to buy to get the job done fast and on time, a $15,000 cargo van that will let you carry all the papers in one trip, or a $250,000 Lamborghini that has the cargo space of a Radio Flyer wagon, gets high-centered on every pothole and neighborhood speedbump and cost 20x as much to get even the most simple repair job done to it?

KSTAR
01-27-2006, 02:08 PM
I have been using LightWave since it was part of the Amiga Video Toaster. Back in the day when you had to buy multiple Toasters to have mulitiple versions of LightWave. In my opinion the current price of a full version of LightWave and the upgrade is extremely inexpensive. At todays current prices the reality is you can pay off your copy of Lightwave in one small project. Not very many investment opportunities like that exist. If your a hobbyist and your not making money. The idea of paying $795 for a full version or $395 for an upgrade to have a complete digital movie studio/architectual/previs/ etc etc etc. at your fingertips is still extremely cheap. Compare that price to tuition or books etc, for something you own and have at your disposal 24/7

androidmaker
01-27-2006, 02:29 PM
For those of you that are having a problem with Newtek lowering there price, just send them extra money when you buy it!! Think of the current price as a minimum payment and add what you feel its true value is.

prospector
01-27-2006, 02:39 PM
I'd like to see it all jump up about a grand for all 3D programs, video programs and hardware. Keeps all the riff-raff out. :hey:

spec24
01-27-2006, 02:46 PM
Oh boy, another car analogy...

Does the ferrari go just as fast as it did when it was $200,000? Does it have all the same features and look? Then I say buy the ferrari. The fact that people assume something is of lesser value because it costs less is A) exactly what's wrong with people and B) purely psychological. People need to get over their elitism and use what works instead of constantly keeping up with the Jones's.

I'm not saying your wrong that people don't see a price drop as negative, I'm just saying they're dumb, that's all and they need to start thinking on their own and worry less about what the flock thinks of them.

I'm just saying it as it is. Marketing/advertising people make their living on the fact that people are stupid. I don't know anyone who's immune either - for one thing or another.

I agree with Prospector :D

GregMalick
01-27-2006, 03:46 PM
You know all of this reminds me of cars quote a lot.

People claiming their make/model is the best.
People upset when you change makes (Traitor!) or own/use more than one kind.
People b*tching & moaning about the maintenance costs.

and on and on and...

I wish that people would simply vent by writing letters to NewTek instead of trying to incite something in the Forums. :thumbsdow
Leave the forums for more productive use.

here's a thought:

NewTek could make a thread category called
ALL MANNER OF WAILING & GNASHING OF TEETH
this thread would qualify.

Kurtis
01-27-2006, 04:05 PM
Everyone has a right to their opinion. This thread has gone a bit far astray, but it has managed to stay more civil than some on this subject. We understand that pricing is always going to be a concern to our customers, no matter which side of the debate they're on.

I know that some people would disagree with this statement, but NewTek has allowed a lot of stuff on these forums that I've seen other company-sponsored forums boot people for. As long as users don't get to the point of casting personal aspersions on individuals (be they NewTek employees, "haters", "fanboys" etc.), doing outright promotion for competing products, or venturing into the realm of fabricated facts, we do our best to allow civil discourse to continue. We may not be able to respond to every thread in every forum, but we're always willing to listen to user concerns, either directly or on the forums.

mattclary
01-27-2006, 04:56 PM
Everyone has a right to their opinion. This thread has gone a bit far astray, but it has managed to stay more civil than some on this subject. We understand that pricing is always going to be a concern to our customers, no matter which side of the debate they're on.


Well, other than some minor differences in choice of automobile, this is one subject we all agree on. Even Bryphi77 gives y'all a :thumbsup: on pricing.

Guess you were right, Steve, it is just him. ;)

cc3d
01-27-2006, 05:17 PM
Honestly, I'd pay $795 Not because I like to spend money, but because I believe in the product. I've been a waver since Videoscape 3D, and I've seen good software die for many reason (pirating, lack of support, etc.) I'll support NewTek as well as I can as I would like to upgrade to Lightwave 19 one day.

:dito:

hrgiger
01-27-2006, 07:31 PM
I'll support NewTek as well as I can as I would like to upgrade to Lightwave 19 one day.

:dito:

I'd settle for Lightwave 9 right now...

Stooch
01-27-2006, 07:31 PM
That's just so true.
And so funny... whoeha!

But really... as far as the car analogy goes... getting a Ferrari for free is even not a good idea. Its engine will break after two runs to the supermarket and the gearbox will drop out the minute your dog barks at it. LW is no ferrari, as Ive been working at least all day today without having a single crash.


thats awesome. but my 20,000 dollar car crashed 5 times today in the middle of a render (pretty heavy with radiosity) and it said something about needing to close yet still continued to render until i pressed ok???

And dont get me started on the hubs, they hate it when i change directions from one program to another and explode. Usually taking modeler with them. Especially when im using the texture editor and click over between programs alot...

however i love my car and will pay the required maintenace fees, as long as the mechanic tells me exactly what he is working on and show me the progress from time to time.

TomT
01-27-2006, 10:01 PM
The price is par for the course in professional software. Considering they've tossed in LW-CAD and Vue, it's a steal.

whiles145
01-30-2006, 12:22 PM
Well I thought upgrades to 8.0 were about $400. It doesn't make sense to me that 9.0's overall price has been lowered but the upgrade is the same. I say at least make it $300 or something. Let us loyal users benefit as well, not just those who are starting off with lightwave. For me, it's a bit of a slap in the face. I mean I realize other companies do worse, but that's part of the reason I don't use their products. It's going to be harder to convince myself to get the upgrade at that price. I'm going to need to see some serious improvements before I get on board, especially with skinning and corrective morphs.

mattclary
01-30-2006, 12:36 PM
Well I thought upgrades to 8.0 were about $400. It doesn't make sense to me that 9.0's overall price has been lowered but the upgrade is the same. I say at least make it $300 or something. Let us loyal users benefit as well, not just those who are starting off with lightwave. For me, it's a bit of a slap in the face. I mean I realize other companies do worse, but that's part of the reason I don't use their products. It's going to be harder to convince myself to get the upgrade at that price. I'm going to need to see some serious improvements before I get on board, especially with skinning and corrective morphs.

Well, that's 2 people out of... what? 785? ;)

hrgiger
01-30-2006, 12:43 PM
Well I thought upgrades to 8.0 were about $400. It doesn't make sense to me that 9.0's overall price has been lowered but the upgrade is the same. I say at least make it $300 or something. Let us loyal users benefit as well, not just those who are starting off with lightwave. For me, it's a bit of a slap in the face.

I fail to see why this is a slap in the face to anyone. Lightwave is $100.00 cheaper to upgrade then it was to upgrade from v6 to v7 and the price has remained the same from the last upgrade from v7 to v8.
Us "loyal users" are benefitting. Not only did we get well over $1,000 of software for $400 when you include the cost of the upgrade, Vue and LWCAD, but we are also getting an improved Lightwave at less then the price it was a few years back for an upgrade.
But you only see that new buyers get Lightwave at less then the cost that you probably did when you bought it and you feel somehow cheated because of it. You're going to be fairly unhappy if you're always looking over the fence at what everyone else has and what you don't.

Kurtis
01-30-2006, 02:02 PM
I fail to see why this is a slap in the face to anyone. Lightwave is $100.00 cheaper to upgrade then it was to upgrade from v6 to v7 and the price has remained the same from the last upgrade from v7 to v8.

Actually this is $100 cheaper than the price of upgrading to LightWave [8]. There was a while where we made a special pricing offer which reduced the price of upgrading to LightWave 7.5 to only $395. This offer ended about a year before LightWave [8] began shipping. For the entire LightWave [8] cycle, the cost of an upgrade has been $495 with PDF documentation and $595 with printed documentation. The new upgrade pricing is $395 with PDF documentaion and $495 with printed documentation, and that includes Vue 5 Infinite and LWCAD through the end of February.

prospector
01-30-2006, 03:44 PM
AH HAAAAA!!!!! a clue !!! :eek:

and that includes Vue 5 Infinite and LWCAD through the end of February.

SOOOoooo LW9 will be out march 1st... :dance:

well it COULD be a clue :hey:

Kurtis
01-30-2006, 04:44 PM
You know, when I wrote that, I thought to myself, "someone's going to read into that." But, I decided to let it go. Oh well.... :D

There is no clue intended there one way or the other. The Vue 5 Infinite offer is good until LightWave 9 ships. The LWCAD offer is only good until February 28, 2006.

GregMalick
01-30-2006, 06:13 PM
prospector,

That was my first thought too - but I looked at the official newsletter from Jan 25, 2006 and it states the same things: Vue deal until LW9 release - LWCAD until 2/28.

BUT: the beta tester offer is supposed to be out/announced this week! :D

whiles145
01-30-2006, 06:23 PM
Well I wasn't sure about the 8.0 upgrade price. I just remember it being $400 for some reason. If the upgrade for 9.0 is indeed $100 cheaper than that is something. I'm really just waiting to see what 9.0 has to offer. There are some key things that LightWave 8 is missing and if these things are definitely provided in 9.0 then the price will be worth it. Like everyone, I'm waiting to see more demo videos. :)

prospector
01-30-2006, 06:33 PM
Kurtis, I was laughing hard when I read your reply :D
mainly because I could picture you behind your desk going " I need to change that...I need to change that"

colkai
01-31-2006, 03:12 AM
Kurtis, I was laughing hard when I read your reply :D
mainly because I could picture you behind your desk going " I need to change that...I need to change that"
Hehe, I could picture him just shaking his head "No no Nooooooo" waiting for the inevitable. :p ;)

starbase1
01-31-2006, 03:15 AM
The price and strategy make sense to me.

Software companies need a steady income stream - and with older products that means upgrade fees. Also higher prices for the complete package serve as a barrier to entry, so to me it makes sense to lower the cost of entry.

I'm surprised that more has not been said about what you actually get in the upgrade though, and I don't meean bundling other pckages. Newtek have a pretty good record of putting lots of major new stuff into each major release.

And come to that, feeding us a steady stream of point releases that have useful, if less earthshaking, new bits.

The upgrade price is at a level where I can't just splurge out as soon as I see it announced, but I think its's reasonable value.

Nick

LW_jackn
01-31-2006, 12:04 PM
If this were an ideal world, we could expect the people at Newtek to enjoy their morning coffee and do all this year after year for free...

:p

Titus
02-01-2006, 01:04 PM
IMO I think the price is just fine. $400 is mighty good considering you get what you pay for.

I live in Mexico and the upgrade price is $600, don't know why. Isn't expensive, really.

IgnusFast
02-01-2006, 02:05 PM
Well, that's 2 people out of... what? 785? ;)


Make it 3. :)

I know people hate us riff-raff, but I only do this for fun, and $400 a year for something that doesn't make me any money is a lot to spend. LOL

Brian_7
02-01-2006, 02:22 PM
No way!! If you are looking for a 3D program for less money try the package that starts with a "B" and ends with a "der" .... it comes at a sweet price!!

Me, I'll stick with Newtek!

Brian_7

Nicolas Jordan
02-01-2006, 03:15 PM
I am more than happy to pay the upgrade price considering you get Vue Infinite for free and now LWCAD tools for free too! You dont get all this cool stuff when you get a Maya upgrade. Alias(now Autodesk) likes to charge for almost every little bug fix or tweek to the program that they release. Considering how other 3D software companies charge, Lightwave users have it pretty good!

Bytehawk
02-01-2006, 05:26 PM
mho : newtek offers us too much value for money

kopperdrake
02-01-2006, 08:56 PM
lightwaver since 3.5

Think $395 upgrade price is more than fair, and if I were new to 3D now then I'd jump at the full price! As a professional package, any hobbyist that can afford it is well and truly spoilt in comparison to similarly priced products...and it *is* within reach of hobbyists. Any professional artist can make this money back in a day's work. I mean - I just paid an electrician more for him and his buddy to install a house alarm and a few other bits and bobs...more than twice as much as the upgrade price! The upgrade price is a pittance when you really think of the man hours and time that goes into an upgrade price - how many upgrades do NT need to pay all their staff...

cc3d
02-02-2006, 04:48 PM
look at getting 3D CAD packages like Solidworks. I use and maintain our seats for SolidWorks in my group at work and we pay big $$$ for that package. Upgrades have cost more than a new Lightwave seat. It's not exactly an apples to apples comparison, but SolidWorks doesn't have as many features for what it does as Lightwave for what it does. Of course it is still cheaper than Catia.

Bog
02-04-2006, 07:35 AM
I'm still astonished by how cheap LightWave is, and how full a feature-set you get for the money. It's sterling value for money, pardon the pun. These days, it's cheaper than the computers I run it on.

As we've had some car analogies, LW is much less money than most people would spend on a car - which can only take you on roads (especially an $800 car).

LW can take you anywhere. Sorry if I sound fanboi, it's just there seem to be a lot of negative threads these days and I'm breaking out in wub for the 'wave.

roboanarchy
02-04-2006, 11:51 AM
Only thing I wished I had done was wait just a tad longer and I could have gotten VUE 5 for an extra $100

Also LWCAD :P

habañero
02-04-2006, 01:44 PM
This pretty much inspired me, I am sending my order these days at an economic situation milestone and I will pay more!

Probably like a beer each for Newtek Europe staff but still - money is money ....

Seriously I think with the enthustiast following LW has It'd maybe be an idea to sell like a Deluxe edition with like select LW art prints, gold coated dongle with memory on it, key chains and lotsa crap like some plugins and stuff and maybe a1 x your own model in crystal or sumthin. Exclusive elite forum at Newtek and invitations to events at siggraph, yearly dinner with the devs. That'd be fine, 1000$ there you go and I'd smile even broader at the Maya crowd paying that for basically about the same product. Nothing with a lot of work or anything, no difference in bug treatment or anything, not like an A-team and a B-team but just the event and the gold dongle and the useless stuff. Hmmm or maybe titanium? Titanium would be perfect! :D

If it'd help fund a more expensive graphic/ design package in general it'd be worth each single cent. I mean seriously just like a few people paying more would probably help.

It'd also be interesting to have a promotion on a logic new purchase, like LW+fprime+G2+Zbrush+LWcad or whatever, I'm not sure if I have that strong an opinion on the particular mix but just some slight price incentive at spending a little more and some illustration at what the same bucks get you in the LW world compared to the rest of the pack and showing the name next to Zbrush is probably a good idea anyway. S' just a thought ...

Shortly, I respectfully disagree with the thread starter. :)

Bytehawk
02-04-2006, 03:48 PM
I'd pay for a deluxe edition with T-shirt (obviously signed by chuck and c°), cap, extra big box and 2 part deluxe manual, dinner invitation at Siggraph with the dev team .....


one can dream

LW_jackn
02-04-2006, 10:27 PM
**** with the dinner, let's do a cocktail party...

:D

EmperorPete
02-05-2006, 10:22 AM
I'd settle for a Guinness... :)

fyrissian
02-07-2006, 01:21 PM
$395.00.... that's a little over a dollar a day for a year. I spend way more than that on my soft drink habit alone!

Skip six fast-food meals a month and make yourself a baloney (or ham or tuna) sandwich instead.

With every fast-food meal, drink water instead of a soda. Don't Super-Size.

Have one or two less cocktails at happy hour.

Discover cheap beer and stop being a beer snob.

Cut back on smoking -- save money and live longer to enjoy Lightwave.

Drive at 60 instead of 70 for better gas mileage.

Eat less delivery pizza.

So... too high compared to what other things in your lifestyle?

habañero
02-07-2006, 02:06 PM
Well or earn money using it. 395$ is like one minor job in my country. consider Serenity, what proportion of the budget went to Newtek? It is also less than I spend upgrading my computer equipment, mostly for non-critical stuff.

Bog
02-07-2006, 02:49 PM
I think over the course of my career I've made about 1500% profit on my entire upgrade path including initial purchase.

Show me a high-index account that pays me that... then I'll point out how much fun the high-index account isn't!