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liquidpope
12-21-2005, 11:41 AM
Great news. Very cool.

Thanks guys!

Earl
12-21-2005, 11:41 AM
Thanks for the news Chuck! Aren't you supposed to be on vacation? :foreheads

I'll definitely participate in the public beta. I'm quite excited about this! :lwicon:

UnCommonGrafx
12-21-2005, 12:07 PM
Very nice news.
Enjoy the holidays and enjoy family and friends; then come back with those big arse kickin' boots on and show the world what you've got.
:D

I'd play in the beta TODAY if you let me. ;)

Ok... got excited. Bye.

nthused
12-21-2005, 12:12 PM
Good news. Thanks so much the the status update, Jay and Chuck. You and the crew at NewTek have a Merry Christmas!

Chris S. (Fez)
12-21-2005, 12:29 PM
I am super excited about the Beta! Thanks for the update!

GregMalick
12-21-2005, 12:31 PM
Awesome! :thumbsup:

And might I suggest a private forum where the public beta testers can post any problems we discover (yep as a pre-release LW9 customer I'm in). This way we can avoid the public thrashing and trashing of a pre-release product.

Enjoy your vacation.

Merry Christmas! :santa:

lardbros
12-21-2005, 12:37 PM
Jay Roth has done it again!!! Man, do i like his style!!

Looking forward to the public Beta, at last this will quash everyone moaning about LW's beta testers... now it's the moaners turn to find the bugs!

That has to be the best way to release a final and fully stable version of 9, my hat is off to you guys... it's a very good decision.

I thought Christmas only came once a year!! As James Bond said while tucking into a bit of Denise Richards.

Chuck
12-21-2005, 12:58 PM
Awesome! :thumbsup:

And might I suggest a private forum where the public beta testers can post any problems we discover (yep as a pre-release LW9 customer I'm in). This way we can avoid the public thrashing and trashing of a pre-release product.

Enjoy your vacation.

Merry Christmas! :santa:

That's already in the plan. Built it last week just to have that task out of the way.

lardbros
12-21-2005, 01:08 PM
I think you should get back on your holiday Chuck... we don't want you falling asleep just as you're about to press the "release LW9 beta" button! :D :thumbsup:

paul summers
12-21-2005, 01:33 PM
A lightwave 9 public beta program some good-news at last.

BUT i would like to know what all this means for mac users.
can we have a MAC DEVELOPMENT statement please.

Thanks

loki74
12-21-2005, 01:44 PM
A lightwave 9 public beta program some good-news at last.

BUT i would like to know what all this means for mac users.
can we have a MAC DEVELOPMENT statement please.

Thanks

I didn't read anything in the statement that suggested PC specificity... correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems to me that the statement applies to both sides of the platform equation?

At any rate, I am very glad to hear this news.

cyphers_lock
12-21-2005, 02:01 PM
Just wondering if I can change my email address? And is it open to 7.5d owners?

lardbros
12-21-2005, 02:12 PM
Just wondering if I can change my email address? And is it open to 7.5d owners?

A quote from just above, from Jay Roth "We are putting the finishing touches on a public beta program for LightWave v9 that will be open to any customer eligible for an upgrade to 9"

So it's only available for people who have paid for the upgrade to 9 or the ones who have paid for 8 and will get 9 free i guess.

BUT if you've upgraded from 7.5 to 8 and in turn are getting the 9 upgrade free then you'll be eligible. Newtek aren't just going to let EVERY owner of any version of LW beta test 9.

cyphers_lock
12-21-2005, 02:15 PM
just contacted newtek and updated my info, got the demo for 8 (coming from 7.5 and want to know if I should skip eight or upgrade in stages) and got put on the beta program list.

krimpr
12-21-2005, 02:22 PM
Thanks for the update; I really appreciate knowing where I stand in terms of what to (and what not to) expect. It takes the edge off somehow. Good luck on the bug-crunching and most importantly (for the next bit anyways) have a great Christmas and Holiday season. :thumbsup:

dballesg
12-21-2005, 03:25 PM
Hi to all,

This are REALLY GREAT news!!! ! :)

Thanks specially to Mr Jay Roth and Chuck for the info !! :)

Cheers and happy holidays,
David

richgrafx
12-21-2005, 03:39 PM
smart idea

this ought to satisfy the cravings of us impatient users as well as insure a stable production release

Tiger
12-21-2005, 03:56 PM
Will beta be available for all prepaid LW9 costumers or just for a chosen group of professionals?

Verlon
12-21-2005, 03:57 PM
I am saddened to hear Lightwave will not ship, but I am glad to receive an update. I think the beta program is a good move also. Thanks for the update guys.

angman
12-21-2005, 10:07 PM
Both as a *student* of PR and avertising at UT and as an avid Lightwaver I am very happy about this. This is as close to perfect as you can get in customer relations.
As a customer I feel important and *served* by Newtek.

Delay the release, but honest and forthright about it - lets be honest - the original timeframe for 9 was highly aggressive.

Then add a public Beta aimed at all of the customers who pre-ordered the upgrade so they can start "tasting" the goodies and be "in" on the process of refining the tool that many of us make a living or hope to make a living with.

Fantastic guys!

Keep up the good work - oh and my birthday is Jan. 10 - I'm hoping to have LW 9 Beta for a present!

archiea
12-22-2005, 12:48 AM
Thanks for the update, chuck. I hope the gang can enjoy the holiuday season in the meantime.

jdomingo
12-22-2005, 06:02 AM
are there any criteria to be eligible to try the beta of v9. i just bought my 8.5 version last october, am i eligible? just cant wait for the v9, everyday i am alway checking for the release date. all i want to try is, its new rendering core...please give me a chance... ty

lardbros
12-22-2005, 06:50 AM
are there any criteria to be eligible to try the beta of v9. i just bought my 8.5 version last october, am i eligible? just cant wait for the v9, everyday i am alway checking for the release date. all i want to try is, its new rendering core...please give me a chance... ty


It says in the Jay Roth statement... If you are eligible for the LW9 upgrade (as in, have ordered 8 and get 9 free, OR have bought the upgrade for 9) then you will be able to beta test.

If you just own LW7/7.5 or 8/8.5 or any of the previous versions, it won't be available to you. (my guess anyway, if it is available it would be a bit strange.)

Brian_7
12-22-2005, 07:45 AM
Anyone who purchased LW 8 is eligible to upgrade to LW 9. So, those users and the users that already upgraded to LW 9 would get an opportunity to participate in the public beta. I'll be looking forward to it. Go Newtek!!

Brian_7

Tiger
12-22-2005, 07:48 AM
That sounds really great :)

lardbros
12-22-2005, 08:34 AM
Anyone who purchased LW 8 is eligible to upgrade to LW 9. So, those users and the users that already upgraded to LW 9 would get an opportunity to participate in the public beta. I'll be looking forward to it. Go Newtek!!

Brian_7

Of course... ANYONE is eligible to upgrade to LW9, even from version 5.6. BUT they don't mean people who are just eligible to upgrade to 9 (because that's literally everyone), but the people who are going to receive the actual upgrade upon release.

By all means, if people have bought the LW8 with free upgrade to 9 then they will be able to take part, just not the ones who didn't.

(If i'm wrong Newtek, please shoot me in my tracks.)

fortress
12-22-2005, 09:09 AM
:D hapy solstice and thank you newtek this is great news as always and newtek you guys have ben doing such an amazing job this time around thank you again for all the many hours of fun i have had and will continue to have.

dominick
12-22-2005, 12:25 PM
Newtek, thanks for the status update, and I am looking forward to the beta. If this doesn't scream "get the update" then I don't know what does.

Gui Lo
12-25-2005, 07:18 PM
Jay does not say pre-paid or ordered, so my hope is that any registered LW owner can take part in the public beta.

The more people who see/use the new features the more potential buyers NewTek will have. Imagine if you use LW7.5 or earlier and see the features in LW9. Could you really go on using LW7.5?

Gui Lo

Kurtis
12-25-2005, 07:35 PM
It says in the Jay Roth statement... If you are eligible for the LW9 upgrade (as in, have ordered 8 and get 9 free, OR have bought the upgrade for 9) then you will be able to beta test.

If you just own LW7/7.5 or 8/8.5 or any of the previous versions, it won't be available to you. (my guess anyway, if it is available it would be a bit strange.)

This is correct.

Thor Simpson
12-25-2005, 08:27 PM
Jay does not say pre-paid or ordered, so my hope is that any registered LW owner can take part in the public beta.

The more people who see/use the new features the more potential buyers NewTek will have. Imagine if you use LW7.5 or earlier and see the features in LW9. Could you really go on using LW7.5?

Gui Lo
You'd have to wait for the free trial download they have planned. There's no way a full beta release could be made public, and having a trial version of a beta would only complicate things (not to mention being a pretty poor trial experience).

Gui Lo
12-25-2005, 10:06 PM
I am slightly disapointed but now 3d is only a hobby I can work with my LW8.5. :)

But I did not suggest the beta goes totally public or to have a trial version. I agree that would be foolhardy and maybe the public beta is LW9 owners only so that users are still able to save work done.

Simply that it would be great in future if a public beta was open to all LW owners.

gui lo

Thor Simpson
12-26-2005, 08:00 AM
Simply that it would be great in future if a public beta was open to all LW owners.

gui lo
The only problem with that is... well, assuming the beta is as far along as we all think, that would basically be giving away v9 upgrades for free, with just a few quirks. That's why I think a demo of 9 once it's complete is the correct way to go. That way, owners of v8 and older can see the features of 9 for free, drool, and then get the upgrade if they want.

Playing with a buggy version might actually turn people away if they aren't committed to a beta program.

I understand the desire to try the new features before you buy an upgrade... I just think that waiting for the full demo release is the right way for NewTek to give that option. Working demos will be a huge plus for Lightwave sales in my opininon, as long as people take the time with those demos to get past the initial learning curve. A week in Lightwave can be a frustrating thing, especially for someone who has never used a 3d App. Hopefully it comes with some good sample scenes and tutorials.

Gui Lo
01-01-2006, 10:51 AM
The only problem with that is... well, assuming the beta is as far along as we all think, that would basically be giving away v9 upgrades for free, with just a few quirks. That's why I think a demo of 9 once it's complete is the correct way to go. That way, owners of v8 and older can see the features of 9 for free, drool, and then get the upgrade if they want.

Playing with a buggy version might actually turn people away if they aren't committed to a beta program.

I understand the desire to try the new features before you buy an upgrade... I just think that waiting for the full demo release is the right way for NewTek to give that option. Working demos will be a huge plus for Lightwave sales in my opininon, as long as people take the time with those demos to get past the initial learning curve. A week in Lightwave can be a frustrating thing, especially for someone who has never used a 3d App. Hopefully it comes with some good sample scenes and tutorials.

As I said, I accept(with a little disapointment) that the LW9 public beta is only open to those that have already pre-ordered or will.

I still think it would be great in future(LW10?) if a public beta was open to all LW owners.

This in no way suggests that we get the next version for free. I am sure that the save commend can be made unusable. Also I don't think that LW owners will complain that a feature may not be working properly in a beta version. I also doubt any LW owner would use a beta version as a replacement for their full albeit older version.

I hope that NewTek have opened up the beta to public beta status so that users can feel more inclusive in the process and LW9 development becomes more transparent to them. I think this is a great move and hope that it is a great success.

Opening a public beta to all LW owners would only encourage more owners to upgrade.

Gui Lo

Lewis
01-01-2006, 11:38 AM
Hi Gui Lo !

I don't agree with your comment/idea that public beta to ALL LW users would encourage more owners to upgrade. As already said above in text that's almost like making it free for all :). What would make more LW owners (and rest of 3D users) to upgrade is downloadable working DEMO version of FINAL Lightwave 9.x and any new versions. Some restrictions would need to be present as in current demo version - layout and modeler (checkerboard renders and point limits on saving objects..).

but that's just my opinion :).

Thumbs up for NewTek and new public beta idea ;).

loki74
01-01-2006, 04:29 PM
This in no way suggests that we get the next version for free. I am sure that the save commend can be made unusable.

Unable to save = a trial version. unless you mean to suggest that even those who have preordered and paid for the upgrade get a save-restricted beta, which, IMO is not fair to them.


Opening a public beta to all LW owners would only encourage more owners to upgrade.

...as would a trial version. (perhaps save-restricted, as you suggest)

Of course we all want to see the features in action before we upgrade. That is what a trial version is for, and that is what those videos are for. Heck, it was the videos that got me to buy LW in the first place. I'm no developer, but my understanding of beta releases is that they are not for marketing purposes, as in a trial. IMO, mixing the two and/or mixing the intentions of either is a bad idea.

juice
01-02-2006, 03:16 AM
I agree, a beta trial isnt fine.
Dont know if companies like Newtek, Alias, Maxxon and all the others wants really public beta testers.I think Newtek wants hold the trust in that peoples who give them also the trust of purchasing the new version of Lightwave :thumbsup: .

Tzan
01-02-2006, 07:27 PM
just contacted newtek and updated my info, got the demo for 8 (coming from 7.5 and want to know if I should skip eight or upgrade in stages) and got put on the beta program list.


I had 6.5 and wanted to upgrade. I ordered 9. I then got a phone call from NT service explaining that 9 will not be able to upgrade over 6.5. So I ordered 8.5 and will get 9 for free.

So will it work over 7.5? I dont know, it may be worth an email though.

Good Luck

iaef
01-03-2006, 04:25 PM
This is absolutely fantastic! :) I tried not to watch that much the forums, since this would only make me more eager, but now that this LW9 beta testing program is out! I am willing to be in it.. Now I will seat in front of my email program and press the receive button every couple of seconds.... :D

Gui Lo
01-06-2006, 07:58 AM
Hi Lewis and Loki74,
I would like to clarify some misunderstandings I may have caused.

i) I do not mean 'future versions' to be version 9. Since version 9 has already been determined I mean version 10+, so I wouldn't want the public beta(version9) to be save restricted.

ii) A public beta cannot be a substitute for a full version so what LW owner would use it rather than their own full version?

iii) A beta is an unfinalised, somewhat undocumented piece of software. A lot of work plainly still needs to be done. I think this will be adequately communicated to the testers so that they do not see it as a 'trial' version. Rather I hope they see version 9 as a "wow now I can understand why they are taking so long".

iiii) In no way am I critizising NewTek for what/how they are handling the public beta of version9 I think it is a great idea and I look forward to participating.

Gui Lo

Thor Simpson
01-06-2006, 08:25 AM
Hi Lewis and Loki74,
I would like to clarify some misunderstandings I may have caused.

i) I do not mean 'future versions' to be version 9. Since version 9 has already been determined I mean version 10+, so I wouldn't want the public beta(version9) to be save restricted.

ii) A public beta cannot be a substitute for a full version so what LW owner would use it rather than their own full version?

iii) A beta is an unfinalised, somewhat undocumented piece of software. A lot of work plainly still needs to be done. I think this will be adequately communicated to the testers so that they do not see it as a 'trial' version. Rather I hope they see version 9 as a "wow now I can understand why they are taking so long".

iiii) In no way am I critizising NewTek for what/how they are handling the public beta of version9 I think it is a great idea and I look forward to participating.

Gui Lo
I understood all of the above and stand by my opinion. A beta copy is pretty much fully working and just has a few bugs to work out. A lot of users don't use the documentation any way (and there are always forums like this to find out things you don't know). MANY people would keep the beta and not purchase the upgrade if it was available to anyone, just living with the few bugs that were corrected in the final release. The only way that makes sense for NewTek is to release a demo version after launch for people who want to see the new features and play around with it before buying.

It's not really worth the debate I guess since it won't impact anything. I understand where you are coming from, but I can't see it ever happening from a business standpoint. The public beta of 9 for people who have purchased it is simply an added bonus to a pretty standard pre-release schedule.

KillMe
01-06-2006, 09:29 AM
any idea when the public beta starts? i was under the impression was gonna be newteks first job after the holidays - or has that been delayed too?

Gui Lo
01-06-2006, 09:47 AM
"I understood all of the above and stand by my opinion."
No problem, that's cool

Gui Lo

Thor Simpson
01-06-2006, 09:57 AM
any idea when the public beta starts? i was under the impression was gonna be newteks first job after the holidays - or has that been delayed too?
My guess it it's their highest priority but:
1) They just got back from the Holidays
2) Prepping everything for a public beta ended up being more work than anticipated (not just on the software side) and they are working their butts off to get it out asap.

Chuck
01-06-2006, 12:51 PM
any idea when the public beta starts? i was under the impression was gonna be newteks first job after the holidays - or has that been delayed too?

As mentioned in the status update at the top of this thread, the first order of business after the holidays is addressing some key elements that need to be completed and fixing a lot of bugs; then we'll be ready to announce and commence the public beta. That work is indeed in progress at this time; I'll see if the development team has any additional information they'd like to share at this time, but basically that comment from the status report describes the current status.

lordbinah
01-07-2006, 09:37 AM
anyone know if lightwave 9 will have a better compatibility betwen zbrush
please let me know cause normal maps in lightwave 8 really sucks

cagey5
01-07-2006, 10:28 AM
With respect Chuck that is not my interpretation of Jays message. The mention of key elements to be completed and fixing of lots of bugs is mentioned in terms of explaining why the 4th quarter estimate for release wasn't met.
He then goes on to explain that, as a response, a public beta is to be released. A process to which you are putting the finishing touches on, but which due to being effectively in the holiday season will not start until after the first.

As we are now into the new year it was quite right to ask for an update on when the beta was due to start.

juice
01-07-2006, 10:38 AM
... if the users have to wait for the beta, how long it takes to finish Lightwave 9 ?

lordbinah
01-07-2006, 05:40 PM
thanks oliver know im the happies person in the word

hrgiger
01-07-2006, 06:36 PM
Chuck, I don't mean to be rude but I have a few questions as I have purcheased the upgrade to Lightwave 9.
The announcements from Jay Roth have indicated that Lightwave 9 will be the most stable version of the software to date. If this is true, why are there so many bugs to begin with? Are they just hoping it is the most stable or is it the most stable? If the software is being delayed due to the sheer number of bugs, how can it be stable?
Is the public beta further delaying the release of Lightwave 9 or is it an attempt to hasten the process? If it is the latter, it sounds like Lightwave 9 won't be released until (at least) mid-year which would be truly disappointing. As far as the beta goes, I'm kind of with Cagey5 on this one, I thought the purpose of the beta was to deal with the bugs and issues but now we have to wait for the bugs and issues to be worked out before we will see the beta. So in a sense, the beta seems to have been delayed as well...
I guess when I knew that Lightwave would be delayed, I took that to mean a few months but it's starting to sound like it will be several at least.
I'm starting to think that Newtek should stop giving release estimates when they obviously have no idea how long it will take to wrap it up.

colkai
01-08-2006, 03:42 AM
hrgiger,
I can make an assumption about the first part of your question, based on 25+ years as a coder myself.
Whenever you first develop a piece of code, you lay the groundwork, then eventually "complete" it. Only at the point of initial 'completion' and alpha testing to bugs start to really show themselves. Code being what it is, normally, as you squash one bug, another pops its head up via a back door route that closing one avenue then creates.

This is what takes most of the time when developing software, I swea bugs have some sort of AI that means if you block one route, they go off and find another way to hack you off. :p
Then you get into "proper" testing, when people start to do things you as a developer just wouldn't think of doing. One reason developers are never the last people to test their own code, they know what it SHOULD do, so they test accordingly. Users / testers can be really perverse at times. ;)
To make a piece of software really stable, it will spend a lot of time in this "development h.e.l.l." area, something I know only too well hehe...

hrgiger
01-08-2006, 09:32 AM
I don't have 25+ years experience as a coder myself but I am going to school for programming and so I do at least grasp the design and implementation process. I know software has bugs and that fixing one bug can mean multiple bugs pop up from the fixing of the first. I guess I just dont' see how you can make a statement that says the software is more stable then it ever has been before but now we're delaying it because there are a lot of bugs to kill.
Jay Roth has stated that Lighwave 9 will now be released in early 2006. Of course early 2006 could be anywhere between tomorrow and sometime in June which then would make it mid-year. So once again, we have an estitmate which I can't even begin to get excited about any longer. We really have no idea at all when LW9 will be here. I think the idea of the beta is a good one but right now it feels like Newtek is sending out that annoying guy to try and entertain the crowd because the real act hasnt' shown up yet.

pooby
01-08-2006, 09:50 AM
Except we're still waiting for the annoying guy to turn up..

HrGiger.. I agree with the logic of your post completely. it's one thing having bugs, but claiming something that seems to contradict this smacks of spin.

Plus.. as far as estimates go regarding software releases.. Why not give yourself a massive lee-way and then give people a nice surprise if it comes early..

Or even better.. a regular update if it looks like it's not going to be on time..

If I knew that 9 was nearly done, but there was trouble integrating the Catmull Clark in Layout.. Then 2 weeks later, found out that this was close to being finished, but producing rendering errors.. etc etc, then at least I'd have a bit of sympathy..

theo
01-08-2006, 09:53 AM
Jay Roth has stated that Lighwave 9 will now be released in early 2006. Of course early 2006 could be anywhere between tomorrow and sometime in June which then would make it mid-year. So once again, we have an estitmate which I can't even begin to get excited about any longer. We really have no idea at all when LW9 will be here. I think the idea of the beta is a good one but right now it feels like Newtek is sending out that annoying guy to try and entertain the crowd because the real act hasnt' shown up yet.

Hr-
Is there something that LW 9 offers that you must have right now? The fact is you really should have just waited to upgrade until the actual release if scheduling is such a critical issue for you.

I have decided to wait to upgrade until the final version is set to go. This way I don't have money tied up in software that will be released months away. It is obvious that Newtek had some difficulties with the LW8 launch which tranlates to me that LW9 will also be behind. Is this a bad thing? I don't really think so.

I think the message is if you are going to invest your money here at Newtek just be prepared to wait a bit longer on the release. They offer a nice incentive to upgrade which you and others took. So just relax and be patient and assume LW9 will show up in July or August.

Chuck
01-08-2006, 11:03 AM
With respect Chuck that is not my interpretation of Jays message. The mention of key elements to be completed and fixing of lots of bugs is mentioned in terms of explaining why the 4th quarter estimate for release wasn't met.
He then goes on to explain that, as a response, a public beta is to be released. A process to which you are putting the finishing touches on, but which due to being effectively in the holiday season will not start until after the first.

As we are now into the new year it was quite right to ask for an update on when the beta was due to start.

I'll make an attempt again to restate what is being said in the announcement, and please bear with me - I'm doing my best to helpful, and I'm not trying to frustrate or obfuscate here. I would appreciate your patience, and ask your patience and some reconsideration on what I and other folks on the team feel are taking words in the very direction we were doing our best to avoid folks taking them as Jay and the team worked on this announcement.

Working on the software to complete the needed key elements and to progress on fixing bugs is the work of the programming team and has been their first order of business on this side of the holidays and the New Year, which we are now four working days into; finishing up the details and deliverables in order to launch the public beta program when the programmers have brought the software to the appropriate point has been the first order of business for the marketing and management staff on this side of the holidays. These are two separate tasks being accomplished by two separate teams, and both have to reach specific goals before public beta will commence.

Apologies if we did not manage to make it understood that the public beta wasn't going to happen instantly after the first. We truly thought that communicating that there was work that had to be done both on the software and on the beta release plan, and that mentioning that this would have to proceed after the holidays and in the New Year was clear enough. I've passed along the request for another status update.

Chuck
01-08-2006, 11:18 AM
I don't have 25+ years experience as a coder myself but I am going to school for programming and so I do at least grasp the design and implementation process. I know software has bugs and that fixing one bug can mean multiple bugs pop up from the fixing of the first. I guess I just dont' see how you can make a statement that says the software is more stable then it ever has been before but now we're delaying it because there are a lot of bugs to kill.
Jay Roth has stated that Lighwave 9 will now be released in early 2006. Of course early 2006 could be anywhere between tomorrow and sometime in June which then would make it mid-year. So once again, we have an estitmate which I can't even begin to get excited about any longer. We really have no idea at all when LW9 will be here. I think the idea of the beta is a good one but right now it feels like Newtek is sending out that annoying guy to try and entertain the crowd because the real act hasnt' shown up yet.

We've stated a goal of delivering a v9 that is the most stable edition ever of the product; I'm puzzled that this would be translated to mean that because the finished product is going to be the most stable version of LightWave ever, it wouldn't have bugs while in development. There are certainly both legacy issues to deal with and new features will certainly have issues as they are developed; if we've somehow communicated that we have a magical process of developing that involves there never being any bugs in the product at any stage, please accept our apologies and our correction - our development process involves that same hard work as any software team has to do, and bugs occuring and needing to be addressed is very much a part of that process. What our goal has been in the 8.x series and is with v9 is to make sure that the delivered release version is the best LightWave that has ever been, to date.

geothefaust
01-08-2006, 12:10 PM
Chuck, I thought what was said was pretty clear. I'm curious how so many people got the wrong idea, in the first place. I reread the statement, and it's pretty clear what was meant.

colkai
01-08-2006, 12:35 PM
We've stated a goal of delivering a v9 that is the most stable edition ever of the product; I'm puzzled that this would be translated to mean that because the finished product is going to be the most stable version of LightWave ever, it wouldn't have bugs while in development.
This is pretty much what I was trying to get across, obviously I didn't explain myself very well.
In a nutshell, to release a more stable version, you spend more time trying to crush bugs during development. It does not neccesarily follow that a final product which is highly stable has no / less bugs as part of development.


I don't have 25+ years experience as a coder myself but I am going to school for programming and so I do at least grasp the design and implementation process.
Once you've coded for a few years in the real world after leaving school, you'll find that there is a huge gap between the academic concepts and the reality of coding. Not getting at you in any way at all here, just saying, be prepared for hours of banging your head against walls when everything you *think* you're looking at tells you the bug just shouldn't exist! :p

I think most people know how coding design and implementation goes in terms of flow charts and processes. What you just can't prepare for is the sheer frustration of chasing bugs in a piece of code you'd have put money on being stable and fully functional. Don't forget either, this is even before the users get their hands on it and do some very strange things.

Case in point, we had a user, just one out of many clients and many users within those client organisations. Every order he did turned out negative cost, no-one could figure out why, he insisted he followed the same process as everyone else. Until one day, on-site, we watched him, he scrolled up and down through the fields 3 times, the calculation then got all mucked up as it was using a calcuated value as part of the action. We asked him why on earth he did this. Answer - "I don't know - I always do it".
It took a chance site visit and 3 years to pin this fault down. EEK!

Heck, I've found bugs that no-one has reported in years, simply because I guess, no-one tried what I tried. Such is the fun of software coding.

Personally, I do not envy the dev team one little bit. ;) :p

hrgiger
01-08-2006, 01:06 PM
Hr-
Is there something that LW 9 offers that you must have right now? The fact is you really should have just waited to upgrade until the actual release if scheduling is such a critical issue for you.

I have decided to wait to upgrade until the final version is set to go. This way I don't have money tied up in software that will be released months away. It is obvious that Newtek had some difficulties with the LW8 launch which tranlates to me that LW9 will also be behind. Is this a bad thing? I don't really think so.

I think the message is if you are going to invest your money here at Newtek just be prepared to wait a bit longer on the release. They offer a nice incentive to upgrade which you and others took. So just relax and be patient and assume LW9 will show up in July or August.

No Theo, there is nothing specifically in Lightwave 9 that I need right now. (Although, having read back through this post, I might argue that some new drawing routines are DESPERATELY needed- anybody who uses LW for animation couldn't argue with that one)It's not a matter of what I need, it's just a matter of frustration perhaps. I've been a loyal customer of Newtek since v6 and I suppose I should have learned by now not to expect a timely release but then Newtek pulls you in by offering these promotions such as Digital Fusion with 8 and Vue with 9(which is great) and they make you think you should upgrade so that you do not miss out on this deal. Then the promtion continues long past the point it was intended for. I suppose this is good for those who waited to upgrade and will still get the deal, but it's a little frustrating for those of us who felt compelled to upgrade so as not to miss out on it. Can you dig it? I say if you're going to offer a promotion, stick to your timelines at least... If that runs out and you still want to have a promotion, come up with something else or some other incentive to upgrade. Just good business IMHO.
This is not a matter of me refusing to use Lightwave any longer or saying if they do x, then I'm just going to go do y. Lightwave is a great software suite and I'm still way ahead by using what I know rather then trying to learn a new tool as a replacement. I just look forward to something because the indications are there that it will deliver. As far as assuming it will be July or August, well for one, that's just disappointing in itself. And two, I'm just going to stop assuming because it just leads to disappointment.


We've stated a goal of delivering a v9 that is the most stable edition ever of the product; I'm puzzled that this would be translated to mean that because the finished product is going to be the most stable version of LightWave ever, it wouldn't have bugs while in development. There are certainly both legacy issues to deal with and new features will certainly have issues as they are developed; if we've somehow communicated that we have a magical process of developing that involves there never being any bugs in the product at any stage, please accept our apologies and our correction - our development process involves that same hard work as any software team has to do, and bugs occuring and needing to be addressed is very much a part of that process. What our goal has been in the 8.x series and is with v9 is to make sure that the delivered release version is the best LightWave that has ever been, to date.

Of course Chuck, I expect there to be bugs in development (and after). I guess I just assumed that the restructuring of the core of the app was going to allow new features to be added at a much faster pace then the older structure allowed, based on Jay Roth's statements. I guess a several month (possibly) delay doesn't scream confidence and I was just looking for some clarification. I just didn't understand how it can be said that Lightwave 9 will be the most stable version of Lightwave when currently, it is delayed for being just the opposite, or so it seems.
You've been on these forums long enough to know that my position has generally been very forgiving on release dates and I have defended Newtek because I know the last few years have been a rebuilding process since they have had to bring on practically a whole new team of developers to move Lightwave forward. I'm not trying to be rude or disrespectful to all of the hard work that has gone into development of Lightwave, but I think that Newtek needs to rethink their marketing. I think that these new features should be closer to production ready before an announcment is made about their release, as opposed to annoucing them just to have something to say at Siggraph months before anything is production ready.

cagey5
01-08-2006, 02:06 PM
Thanks for the clarification Chuck. Please don't take my query as an indication of impatience. It wasn't. Rather, curiosity as to why I had a different view of events.

Yog
01-09-2006, 07:10 AM
I just didn't understand how it can be said that Lightwave 9 will be the most stable version of Lightwave when currently, it is delayed for being just the opposite, or so it seems.I think most people would agree I'm no LW appologist :rolleyes: , but ....
It is my understanding that much of what made LW unstable (relative phrase) in the past has been to do with the amount of 3rd party plugins that were purchased and then shoehorned in badly, that and the fact the core was getting old, and it was stretching it's abilities to try and to incorporate new features into a core that wasn't designed to work that way (think how Worley has come up with string and spit work arounds to get some of his plug-ins to work with a LW core that doesn't 100% support them).

By making the announced core changes, LW as a general entity will be more stable as individual elements will work in a more uniformed way, and there will be flexibility in the core to easily accomodate tasks that were formally bodged into working. That is not to say individual tools will be without bugs, especially the tools new to this release.

Dodgy
01-09-2006, 07:25 AM
Yeah, from some of the replies to my bug reports I understand that because the dev team is rewriting the core, that this should lead to more stability/consistency and openess to developers. Of course this also means some of our code could well be obsolete and need rewriting Argh! :)

Pavlov
01-09-2006, 10:36 AM
Yeah, from some of the replies to my bug reports I understand that because the dev team is rewriting the core, that this should lead to more stability/consistency and openess to developers. Of course this also means some of our code could well be obsolete and need rewriting Argh! :)

Losing some backward compatibility is a minimum price to pay for progress and innovation... Max's plugins had to be rewritten at each upgrade, but the result is under everyone's eye.

Paolo Zambrini

Verlon
01-09-2006, 02:00 PM
Well I would hate to have all my plugins invalidated with EVERY upgrade. Besides the fact that I think it would lead to me having to BUY them again every time (who would want to work for free), I have about a zillion obscure little free downloads that I would hate to have to relocate (assuming the author still worked on said plugin).

That said, I could live with doing it a couple of times a decade....depending. I'd REALLY hate having to repurchase all the Worley stuff. That'd put a serious dent in my mad money for the year.

jb_gfx
01-12-2006, 05:02 AM
Well I would hate to have all my plugins invalidated with EVERY upgrade. Besides the fact that I think it would lead to me having to BUY them again every time (who would want to work for free), I have about a zillion obscure little free downloads that I would hate to have to relocate (assuming the author still worked on said plugin).

That said, I could live with doing it a couple of times a decade....depending. I'd REALLY hate having to repurchase all the Worley stuff. That'd put a serious dent in my mad money for the year.

Within LightWave's actual market updating all (commercial) plugins with every update wouldn't be too much work..

Verlon
01-12-2006, 08:31 AM
If the plugin authors had to update every time to keep them compatible, I would wager they would charge for their work (it is reasonable to expect additional pay for additional work, and it wouldn't be their fault the plugin no longer worked).

I know I own about a dozen commercial plugins for my hobby, and I would bet people who do this for a living own a lot more. You could easily quadruple the price of an upgrade like that.

creacon
01-12-2006, 09:08 AM
I am glad that you guys are working on the legacy issues, and I am curious to see if you fix bugs that I reported 5 years ago. As far as stability is concerned we'll have to compare with 5.6 because that was, as far as we are concerned, the most stable version ever. But it didn't have all the fancy stuff.
I don't think that there are a lot of professional users who really expected LW to be on time and they prefer stable software instead of buggy releases.

Luc




I'll make an attempt again to restate what is being said in the announcement, and please bear with me - I'm doing my best to helpful, and I'm not trying to frustrate or obfuscate here. I would appreciate your patience, and ask your patience and some reconsideration on what I and other folks on the team feel are taking words in the very direction we were doing our best to avoid folks taking them as Jay and the team worked on this announcement.

Working on the software to complete the needed key elements and to progress on fixing bugs is the work of the programming team and has been their first order of business on this side of the holidays and the New Year, which we are now four working days into; finishing up the details and deliverables in order to launch the public beta program when the programmers have brought the software to the appropriate point has been the first order of business for the marketing and management staff on this side of the holidays. These are two separate tasks being accomplished by two separate teams, and both have to reach specific goals before public beta will commence.

Apologies if we did not manage to make it understood that the public beta wasn't going to happen instantly after the first. We truly thought that communicating that there was work that had to be done both on the software and on the beta release plan, and that mentioning that this would have to proceed after the holidays and in the New Year was clear enough. I've passed along the request for another status update.

Lightwolf
01-12-2006, 10:42 AM
If the plugin authors had to update every time to keep them compatible, I would wager they would charge for their work (it is reasonable to expect additional pay for additional work, and it wouldn't be their fault the plugin no longer worked).
As a commercial plugin developer, let me chime in.
Maybe I would charge, probably only a little though.
On the other hand, if SDK changes make my life easier, both the developers and the user will benefit from it (which may lower plugin prices, or make them better or both).

Cheers,
Mike
P.S. Let's not forget that plugins can break without SDK changes just because internal processing of LW has changed. That is even worse since it is undocumented in most cases.

MarkG
01-13-2006, 10:39 AM
Newtek pulls you in by offering these promotions such as Digital Fusion with 8 and Vue with 9(which is great) and they make you think you should upgrade so that you do not miss out on this deal.

Indeed: I'm more than happy to have got Fusion 5 for about a third of the full price (between the Lightwave deal and the Fusion 5 upgrade cost) and Vue for about half of the full price... plus two Lightwave upgrades thrown in effectively for free. I think that more than makes up for a few weeks delay in releasing the software.

theo
01-13-2006, 02:46 PM
I think that more than makes up for a few weeks delay in releasing the software.

I would love to be wrong but gut-feeling tells me it will be more than a few weeks my friend.

mlmiller1983
01-13-2006, 11:29 PM
Good things come to those wait. Everybody needs to be patient. I say the longer the better. Gives Newtek more time to work out the bugs and make it a better product. You can't rush brillance!

geothefaust
01-14-2006, 12:17 AM
I would love to be wrong but gut-feeling tells me it will be more than a few weeks my friend.

Think positive. :) I have a hunch the wait will not be as long as you think. ;)

Nitisara
01-14-2006, 07:18 AM
I guess I just dont' see how you can make a statement that says the software is more stable then it ever has been before but now we're delaying it because there are a lot of bugs to kill.
I hope that the reason of delay is not an enormous amount of bugs in software (so much that it is unacceptable even for beta release), but some kind of unexpected delivery or legal agreement delay.

juice
01-14-2006, 10:03 AM
... it is the half of january now, and no statement when I can get that for what I have payed time ago. Maybe it was a wrong decision to stay with Lightwave and dont change to Modo or Xsi...

Thor Simpson
01-14-2006, 10:43 AM
Rather than a status update, I'd prefer just having the beta so I can see for myself where it's at. I know they're working on it, and expect to see it soon. But honestly, I'm not in a huge hurry myself. I have a backlog of work that needs to be completed before I'll even have a chance to play with new features in 9. I'm definitely interested in seeing them though, and some more movies would be great to hold us over.

coremi
01-14-2006, 11:04 AM
i think the is the worst period in the last 2 years for this forum, there is no more Proton, Chuck comes around, kurtis once in 2 month, i just remembered how alive was this forum prior to Siggraph when they hired Lee to talk to the people, lets not remember the tiomes when someelse made u feel special just cuase you are a Lightwave user. The exciment is gonna, Proton brought it back for a while than he also got better things to do. I really think is a huge problem with NT because of this price cut. If things are great nobody cuts in half the price and also give a huge bonus(vue). my 2c.

pixelinfected
01-14-2006, 11:35 AM
If things are great nobody cuts in half the price and also give a huge bonus(vue). my 2c.

maya reduce the price many times, xsi same thing, don't you remember when alias and softimage product cost more than a ferrari, since 50.000 $ and more?
and recent creation of xsi foundation to sell at 500$
3d market is oversaturated from product and no one is really innovative (zbrush exclused...

Pavlov
01-14-2006, 11:37 AM
I fear they're quite far form releasing, and it's better this way, imho.
If the unbelievable movies we all have seen is the result of already-done work, it's better they release it in 2007.
My personal POV *based on nothing but pure speculations* is that they hoped to release before but recent speculations, comments on "feaures" shown and so on made they understand that nobody would accept another patchy release, so they're going to deliver something better.
Roth's words were encouraging but the only real facts regarding 9 are some shameful movies, innocently showing pointless things to people waiting for something *actual* from years.
If these were exhaustive of 9.0 status, personally i dont care if they delay release until next year. Remember what are most users waiting from 9; a bad release would make too many users go away.
Let's hope and let them work.

Paolo

Stooch
01-14-2006, 12:30 PM
heh, im trying to be quiet because all the talk doesnt seem to amount to much here, but IMO its in NTs best interest to show demo movies of actual features that are causing the main excitement. IE edge weights, ngons, nodal shaders and render speed improvements (i mean side by side renders from v 8.5 and 9).

If NT cant show us these demos, that means that all the hype is pure B.S. because at this point, they should atleast be functional (albeit buggy) but functional enough to show.

theo
01-14-2006, 12:38 PM
Roth's words were encouraging but the only real facts regarding 9 are some shameful movies, innocently showing pointless things to people waiting for something *actual* from years.


Pav- I am sure there is a slight language barrier issue here concerning your remarks about the videos and I will give you the benefit of the doubt due to that but you must be more balanced in this assesment.

Proton was under some pretty intense pressure here in the forums to produce something and he delivered and Newtek allowed him to do so. Both of these facts attest to a willingness on Newtek's part to be at least somewhat transparent in this regard which is a positive indicator in my judgement.

Statements like the one you made do nothing to build rapport with Newtek and if people continue to bad mouth Newtek over things like this we may just never see another video.

nerdyguy227
01-14-2006, 12:48 PM
I say they should tell us the status and give us what they have but make it able to open the 8 or 9 version upon program launch so if we all find its too buggy just start in LW 8 mode and for thoes who's work is deadlined and can not afford bugs use 8 until NT releses a super bug patch from the open beta findings. This way we can all fool around with the new features in free time and send in bugs while crucial work does not have the bug obstical.

crpcory
01-14-2006, 11:56 PM
2007..eek lets hope not...combustion being 9months late for the mac was all the more annoying surprises i need this year.
I gotta have that time warper (bullet time) control with the camera/timeline for an upcoming project.

Sorry if this is discussed elsewhere, but is there...or isn't there still something being developed for much fuller integration with LW and Vue?

I am looking fowrad to this we release though, quite a few features I really wish i had right now...but I'll get it when its released...

Intuition
01-15-2006, 11:27 AM
Well, if LW8 is any indicator, as far as announcement, to updates of release, to actual release then we should see a LW9 release in April/May of 2006.

I, much to the chagrin of many here, am very patient about waiting for 9 because I am doing fine with Lw8 for now.

Sure, I want more and newer things like everyone else and do admit some of the other packages have really nice newer features, (Blenders fluids anyone?..for free to boot) but Lightwave's workflow is the best of the best.

I want Lightwave to have an as good or better GI engine as NL's Maxwell

I want perfect z-brush implementation (meaning what I export out of ZB looks exactly the same in Lightwave)

I want particle renderers that can do those plasma trails in Chronicles of Riddick...

I want a rigging system where I just pick a premade skeleton (biped, quadraped, snake, fish, spiders, etc) and just size it for my model and then have it snap on with IK already set.

on and on I can go....

Will LW9 give me all of this?

I dunno. Will I leave LW if it doesn't? Probably not.

What I think would get me to leave Lightwave would be if another 3d app had as quick a workflow as Lightwave and yet still retain the quality of Lightwave.

I don't see this happening anytime soon.

I mean...Maxwell sure looks good but....14+ hours a frame for something nice.

Zbrush is an awesome organic sculpter..but...Imagine if we could do those things in Modeler..would I open zbrush again? Probably not.

Flowlines is wicked awesome....still...might plug into LW before this time next year.

I don't think Lightwave is nearing tombstoning. :newtek: :lwicon:

............................................all that being said.

It would be nice to hear a status update. :thumbsup:

Zach
01-15-2006, 11:35 AM
well, this is what happened with 8, but we got DFX+ back then. Now the same thing is happening with 9, but we get an even better price and VUE to boot (IMO which is way more useful than DFX+, since i already had AFX).

There is nothing anyone really needs in 9 that they can't do in 8 without a little imagination. I agree, it's painful to pay for something and only get half of what was promised, but given the past track record, you can't expect more than what has already been shown.

It's like interviewing a prospective employee, they usually show up in the best clothes you will ever see them in. You can't expect them to later wear a suit when you hired them in sweats!

LW will be released, but it will probably be in march when the new harry potter dvd comes out.

I was hoping for a new interface (still without icons) but maybe when LW hits ten, they'll do that and change its name. Who knows.

If you want faster renders, buy bigger and better computers, otherwise, keep the faith and the midnight oil a burnin'.

And keep up the thick skin when the Maya/Max guys make fun of you. I know it's hard, but hey, at least you can speculate that Autodesk will kill Maya (NOT)

Pavlov
01-15-2006, 11:53 AM
Hi,


Pav- I am sure there is a slight language barrier issue here concerning your remarks about the videos and I will give you the benefit of the doubt due to that but you must be more balanced in this assesment.

Well let's take this probability as real.. anyway i'm far from being "politically correct", and my (maybe too much) arsh words are the exact feeling of a large part of the userbase.
Anyway since you're saying this, i've to apologize if my word are of some disturb for some.
Let's clarify this: i dont have any issue with the mighty Proton and the way he does its job (which i appreciate most of the times), i'm just stating it is not admittable and quite irritating to see videos like Null's or boolean's one, if not others, given actual LW's situation.


Proton was under some pretty intense pressure here in the forums to produce something and he delivered and Newtek allowed him to do so. Both of these facts attest to a willingness on Newtek's part to be at least somewhat transparent in this regard which is a positive indicator in my judgement.

Well i'm not so sure about Newtek's clarity. A mere observation of fact forces me to compare enlightening messages form Mr. Roth to facts, where we still didnt see any sign of promised LW's renovation, but just implementation of single tools - also patchy ones, jusdging from the movies. I dont care if 9 is posticipated, i just hope they do a good job and take their time to do it; if they had too little to show i'd have preferred a clear message instead of Boolean and Null's movies - and let's stop here or i'll become a bad guy again ;)
My comments start from this constatation and also end there, i hope it's clear what the range of my speculation is.


Statements like the one you made do nothing to build rapport with Newtek and if people continue to bad mouth Newtek over things like this we may just never see another video.

I'd agree if i only did these. I'm active in this and many other lists, i actively partecipate to testing, debugging and feature requesting of LW istelf and lot of 3rd party tools, so hope you'll see my critics as a part of a wider range of acts towards Newtek - lot of which are positive.
Critic is a part of an objective contribute, sorry if this hurts someone and i'll try to temperate my words.

Paolo

theo
01-15-2006, 12:42 PM
I'd agree if i only did these. I'm active in this and many other lists, i actively partecipate to testing, debugging and feature requesting of LW istelf and lot of 3rd party tools, so hope you'll see my critics as a part of a wider range of acts towards Newtek - lot of which are positive.
Critic is a part of an objective contribute, sorry if this hurts someone and i'll try to temperate my words.



I do see critical thinking as useful and positive when done properly. And thank you for clarifying your position. I am sure that Newtek sees the value of critical comments that are communicated with civility as well.

But I also feel that when a company does respond to users in these forums, the videos for example, that needs to be appreciated even if the videos do not meet expectations, whatever those may be.

The best thing to do is just simply wait and save your critiques until after LW9 is available.

Pavlov
01-15-2006, 12:56 PM
But I also feel that when a company does respond to users in these forums, the videos for example, that needs to be appreciated even if the videos do not meet expectations, whatever those may be.

You mean some kind of "formal curtesy playing"... honestly i tend more to direct playing, but i respect this kind opinion.


The best thing to do is just simply wait and save your critiques until after LW9 is available.

Right: let's critic those demo movies until then....
just kidding ;)

Paolo

theo
01-15-2006, 01:01 PM
It is not our job to build rapport with newtek It is neteks job to build rapport with us. We are the ones that are buying their product, not the other way around. I would hope that a company that I gave my money to was not going punish their users for their opinions one some videos.

What I don't understand is why newtek would continue to be silent when they can see that their users are getting more and more irritated. I don't care weather V9 comes out tomorrow or next year. I would like to get an update with this info



so I can form my own opinion.

It would only take an hour at the most for them to type and it would get everyone of their backs.


It definitely is not everyones job to build rapport with Newtek but it is in everyones interest that users maintain some level of civility in discourse about Newtek because it just makes this forum a better place to visit frankly.

If Newtek is in the middle of some sort of temporary software-development setback there is no way grouchy users in this forum will be able to make this problem go away if Newtek is trying to work out the details themselves.

brap
01-15-2006, 01:04 PM
My view is that a patch which fixes the major bugs in 8.5 without introducing any new ones would go a long way to keeping a lid on things until 9 is finally ready, no matter how long it takes. It would be great to have a rock-solid 8.x series fall-back alternative for any possible plug-in and script compatibility issues that may arise with 9. I've recently emailed newtek with this request, and would encourage anyone else who feels the same way to do the same.
JC

Pavlov
01-15-2006, 05:04 PM
My view is that a patch which fixes the major bugs in 8.5 without introducing any new ones would go a long way to keeping a lid on things until 9 is finally ready, no matter how long it takes. It would be great to have a rock-solid 8.x series fall-back alternative for any possible plug-in and script compatibility issues that may arise with 9. I've recently emailed newtek with this request, and would encourage anyone else who feels the same way to do the same.
JC

I agree with this. I prefer without doubts to wait all time is needed instead of getting a deludent 9.0.
Recently LW has been greatly enforced by complementary 3rd party tools like Kray, Fprime, Wtools, Pictrix's tools and many many other; maybe they should release an "interim" patch to fix bugs and help plugin developer to keep their tools up-to-date and really take all the time they need.
In this case, i'd just like they were straight clear about this and i'd be happy.

Paolo

Wonderpup
01-15-2006, 05:43 PM
But I also feel that when a company does respond to users in these forums, the videos for example, that needs to be appreciated even if the videos do not meet expectations, whatever those may be.


I think the issue here was a little deeper. If we accept that, at present, many Lightwave users are feeling a little insecure concerning the future of the software- which in turn has implications for their own futures in many cases- then it can be seen that by posting trivial feature updates at this time, Newtek could give the impression that they are not taking their users concerns seriously.

And I think it was this sense of not being taken seriously that triggered off the negative responses.

gilbert
01-15-2006, 10:47 PM
Every time I see great special effects like in King Kong, Lords of Ring, Polar Express and so many others I used to say wow I wish I can create something like that some day, “I can’t wait for the new version of Lightwave” then I will be able to do this and that, BS, BS and BS.It is a big mirage, a fantasy, an illusion; having version 9, 10 or 11 etc. it is not going to make you a better artist.
It won’t come with this magic button that will create amazing graphics for you it is up to you, the person behind the keyboard and a lot of time and sacrifices that something like that can be achieve, look at Project “Rust Boy”.
Some of you including me will show the same crappy animations with the same shining boxes, Human faces that look like Martians and reflecting spheres even with version 15 or a full blown XSI or Maya.

Don’t get me wrong, it is a great feeling, it is exciting, the wait just unbearable; looking at new Box, playing with new features, it is like Christmas. It will make your work easier but bottom line it won’t make you a great artist, that will take understanding the package you have in front of you now, time and patience. Companies like Zoic and many others that use Lightwave don’t have 9 and still they create amazing stuff simply because they really understand the vast tool set of Lightwave today.
I was surprise to read how many people just find out that Shift F9 will give you a motion blur preview, not knowing that feature was implemented back in 7.0 or 7.5.

Coding a piece of software this complex, takes time, sacrifices and effort and nobody and absolutely nobody in this forum or community has more interest, time invested, money invested and so many things on the line than Newtek. I really believe they are doing everything they can to unveil this package as soon as possible it is not a conspiracy, so stop the winding and learn the version you have now, be patience and become a better artist.
Lightwave 9 will be here when is ready and it will be a great day.:thumbsup:

You all have a great year.

Gilbert Figueroa
wwwgfmediagroup.com

prospector
01-15-2006, 11:37 PM
Here Here

Having used LW since Ver 3, I probably use at most 30% of the total buttons in all the panels in modeler and 20% in layout, I would like to learn more but just don't have the time to really study every button to the N'th degree and there is probably something that I do that could be shorter or faster another way, but it's hard to teach an o'l dog new tricks.

HAVING SAID THAT.....

I could really use 9 NOW just because of the multi camera shoots, as I use a keosk type output (multi screen shots of same action), I will only have to render out 1 final scene instead of many renders and compositing them later in the VT. Not that it will make me a better artist but it sure will cut down on rendering as each scene usually takes 4 days for each camera angle and always 9 camera angles to render.

And from what I've see so far of LW9, sorry to say, but I may only use that feature unless something else amazing is shown, but the upgrade just for that feature is worth it (at least for me).


Oh yea...that shift-F9 was new for me too :D

Nitisara
01-16-2006, 04:09 AM
It is a big mirage, a fantasy, an illusion; having version 9, 10 or 11 etc. it is not going to make you a better artist.
You have ordered a new car, and they brought it to you 3 weeks later.
You ask: "Why are you so late??"
They reply: "Hey, cool down! At first, your old car is still on wheels, secondly you anyway will not become better driver even with this one!"


so stop the winding and learn the version you have now, be patience and become a better artist.
You have ordered a new car, and they brought it to you 3 weeks later.
You ask: "Why are you so late??"
They reply: "Hey, don't be angry! You had three more weeks to learn driving!"

juice
01-16-2006, 04:38 AM
You have ordered a new car, and they brought it to you 3 weeks later.
You ask: "Why are you so late??"
They reply: "Hey, cool down! At first, your old car is still on wheels, secondly you anyway will not become better driver even with this one!"


You have ordered a new car, and they brought it to you 3 weeks later.
You ask: "Why are you so late??"
They reply: "Hey, don't be angry! You had three more weeks to learn driving!"



... :thumbsup:

:dito:




... then they promise an non finished car (the Beta) but where it is ??

Verlon
01-16-2006, 04:54 AM
Right...having LW9 will not make me a better artist.

Having my $395 will not make the guys at NT better coders either (infact, depending on how much they spend on beer and Tequila, it might make them worse).

They accepted our money, and we want our LW9. That failing, we would like to know what is going on. If you are happy with the current situation, more power to you.

If you are waiting on one of those new features, you might night be as happy. Yeah, its vapor ware until it hits the shelves, and you shouldn't have a deadline that involves needing software that hasn't shipped yet. BUT, there are still plenty of cases of "it'd sure be a lot easier if I could do this..."

cc3d
01-16-2006, 05:34 AM
They accepted our money, and we want our LW9. That failing, we would like to know what is going on. If you are happy with the current situation, more power to you.



Deja Vu all over again. I am sure if you look in the forum archives you will see this entire thread almost in-tact. Just put 8.0,7.0, 6.0,5.0, etc......

We'll get the software, we'll praise the additions and ***** about the bugs. There will be bugs because it's software.

Nitisara
01-16-2006, 05:48 AM
Deja Vu all over again. I am sure if you look in the forum archives you will see this entire thread almost in-tact. Just put 8.0,7.0, 6.0,5.0, etc......
Guy is driving a car, hits light post and angrily exclaims:
- ****, it is here again!

Thor Simpson
01-16-2006, 09:21 AM
Maybe we'll get a nice beta of 9 this week and we can put this to rest? :)

moc
01-16-2006, 10:14 AM
haha..
Newtek always know that many of us come anger.....
But there was not many ways for us to change.....exchange to another software at least need a half year,means you need keep hard-learning for a half year...this so difficult.
And finally,
Although we're anger,we'll still wait for V9......
~~~~~~~~~

theo
01-16-2006, 10:17 AM
Guy is driving a car, hits light post and angrily exclaims:
- ****, it is here again!

Guy buys a car. He then waits a week to claim his purchase since his car is special order and is not like other cars on the lot. Three days into his wait he hears the disappointing news that his car was smashed to bits when a tornado blew it off the trailer it was being delivered on.

Guy gets mad then realizes that since it is beyond the power of the dealership to control tornados he has only one choice to make especially since he is such a discriminating consumer- he decides it is in his best interest to wait for a new version to be delivered, which he does.

TSpyrison
01-16-2006, 10:53 AM
I have a 2005 Rubicon Unlimited. (a long Jeep Wrangler)

I had the dealership order it for me the day that they were allowed to take orders.

I ordered it in the spring, and didn't get it till fall. Before I ordered it, I knew it would take a while, and there might be manufacturing delays. But I did it anyway. I wanted one of the first ones to come out of the factory.

When I’m driving around, or riding the trails, the time I had to wait for it is the last thing on my mind :)

Thor Simpson
01-16-2006, 11:27 AM
Guy buys a car. He then waits a week to claim his purchase since his car is special order and is not like other cars on the lot. Three days into his wait he hears the disappointing news that his car was smashed to bits when a tornado blew it off the trailer it was being delivered on.
A tornado blew the programmers off their trailer? :(

mattclary
01-16-2006, 12:15 PM
In 2000 I ordered a green Nissan Xterra with a standard transmission. I wanted a yellow one, but at the time they were really rare. It was hard to get a standard transmission because every one wants an automatic transmission (I defy anyone to explain that logic to me).

I was told it would take about 6 weeks. After 3 months, still no Xterra. One day, I happened to drive by the dealership and they had a yellow Xterra on the lot (with an automatic). Later that day, I drove it off the lot.

Moral of the story: Good things come to those who wait.

toby
01-16-2006, 12:32 PM
I just ordered a Mini Cooper - please don't talk about tornadoes until April! 8~

pooby
01-16-2006, 12:54 PM
You can dress it up all you like. The bottom line is.....

TALK TO US!

theo
01-16-2006, 12:55 PM
A tornado blew the programmers off their trailer? :(

Nah- just following the analogical trail Nitisara was trying to blaze...though....hmmm...I guess this would work if Newtek could spin it right...I think the toughest part will be explaining exactly why their programmers bang out code on a trailer exposed to nature's fury and all. Could drag down the appeal of Newtek I suppose...though in this case what might be ideal is if the marketing people created these demonic mystiques for the code monkeys that incited an intense sense of vindication in the LW pipeliner masses that the code monkeys actually needed to be chained to their desks on an open trailer tapping away on melting keyboards in the hot sun of the Texas desert exposed to nature's fury and all...though this may also be seen as a sickly exercise appealing only to metalheads and extreme-manga geeks.

Another downside is that the programmers may find the conditions a tad uncomfortable...though in my limited experience a lot of these people are subhumans anyways once you plug them into a keyboard.

Stooch
01-16-2006, 01:09 PM
So the car analogy continue:

Since my car is being delivered again due to an act of god, im forced to stay with my old beat up car that travels 2.5 or more times slower then the new one. Hmm, although i keep on driving by this other dealership with a really nice car sitting right there on the lot, its so tempting to just walk in and buy it... and cancel the order for the new car...

toby
01-16-2006, 01:26 PM
You can dress it up all you like. The bottom line is.....

TALK TO US!
Maybe they should but you know it's a can of worms, it wouldn't end there. Once they talk to us, they have to respond to everything we ask, and explain everything, or eveybody gets just as mad as they are now.

If you're waiting for [9] for a current project, don't. It's going to have issues just like a brand new release of any package.

If you're not waiting for [9] to do a current project, stop thinking about it. You're just aggravating yourself, and not making it come any faster.

Chris S. (Fez)
01-16-2006, 01:42 PM
You can all "analogize" till the Newtek cow comes home. I think the Lightwave community has every right to be irritated at both Newtek's tardiness and their reluctance to communicate with their customers.

theo
01-16-2006, 01:44 PM
So the car analogy continue:

Since my car is being delivered again due to an act of god, im forced to stay with my old beat up car that travels 2.5 or more times slower then the new one. Hmm, although i keep on driving by this other dealership with a really nice car sitting right there on the lot, its so tempting to just walk in and buy it... and cancel the order for the new car...

You are basing your statement on the assumption that your original car is beat up and travels 2.5x slower than the new one. The assumed vehicle state of my car in my original stated analogy is about two years old which would make this scenario more accurate in terms of LW8 vehicle owners trading up into the LW9 model.

If you are a LW6.5 (or so) vehicle owner then of course your opinion here is of little value because you had years previous to the LW9 model to upgrade in which case you did not which is proof in and of itself that the release timing is not a factor to you as evidenced by your software version (in other words, if you waited THIS long then the evidence of version number shows you will wait longer). If everyone here is driving a LW8 and above model then your opinion matters but in this case I would refer you to my initial counter to Nitisara's Car Analogy.

If you own an LW8.2 and above model this is strong evidence that you more than likely have a considerable investment in LW and that a manufacturing mishap will not be near enough to encourage an investment in another vehicle brand especially on the cusp of a major overhaul of your exisiting car engine.

So it is in this sense that latest LW vehicle owners with the 8.2 and 8.5 engines may be the most vocal owners yet will also be the most loyal. So it may actually make more sense in the long run for Newtek to craft a solid statement and release that when they are good and ready rather than craft a statement off-the-cuff to please the LW core which will in the end probably do more harm than good.

StereoMike
01-16-2006, 01:48 PM
hm- if someone is canceling all communications after telling you , you won't have to worry and everything's fine -( just wait a second-errr month..s), then

a) he's preparing a surprise and wants to increase the tension
b) he went to far out on a limb with telling everything's fine.

I hope for a), but I'm afraid it's b).

I absolutely can't understand, why anyone, really anyone (persons, companies, governments) thinks, telling nothing and leaving people with their thoughts would do anything good. In my experience the rumours and fears are much worse and more harmful than the truth...

Can you imagine a cause, that would make NT decide not to tell customers anything new about the progress of LW9? Why don''t we get weekly updates like other developers do?

Really, no offense to NT, everyone is allowed to make mistakes. I just wish one would talk about problems, if there are any.

Mike

toby
01-16-2006, 01:51 PM
You can all "analogize" till the Newtek cow comes home. I think the Lightwave community has every right to be irritated at both Newtek's tardiness and their reluctance to communicate with their customers.
Absolutely. You do have the right to burst blood vessels in your head or :bangwall:

cc3d
01-16-2006, 01:58 PM
1) Lightwave releases being late. They always are. Why is anybody surprised this one is. NewTek got a little excited and over extended themselves. Instead of releasing a bug-ridden monster so that we'd all be bitching about a patch now instead of 9.0!

2) Everyone is going to ***** about them being late, not providing enough information, or what information NewTek does release, and any bugs left in the software once it is released.

Frankly, I am surprised that NewTek lets anything out of the bag because EVERY time it turns into a NewTek bash and bitching session on how they should've done it or what they should be doing.

If you're waiting on LW 9.0 to do a project, get used to waiting. There will be changes and little quirks here and there, in 9.0, that will make this upgade less than pain free I am sure as in all the ,ajor upgrades to-date!

have a nice day.

:i_agree:

Chris S. (Fez)
01-16-2006, 02:26 PM
Absolutely. You do have the right to burst blood vessels in your head or :bangwall:

I take this all in stride. I am not going to stroke out over software :) .

Wonderpup
01-16-2006, 02:27 PM
I think Newtek should really avoid the Pre release order strategy in future- and I say that as someone who has benifited from it.

The deals they put together are very good, and I'm sure there are good cash flow reasons for offering them, but the fact is you do feel different about a delayed release if you have already paid up front.

The fact that I am sitting here still not even knowing the details of what I have paid for months ago is really irritating- had I not preordered I don't think I would feel the same way.

Ok, I know it's my own fault for preordering in the first place- I should have known better- but that doesn't change the way I feel about it.

It's true that Newtek are in a no win situation here as regards communication, and I can see why they might choose to say nothing untill they have something positive to announce- but I would personaly feel a lot better if I knew what was going on.

It's not that I am desperate to get my hands on 9, but I do feel that having pre ordered-and the delivery date been missed-I should at least be kept informed in some way as to the progress of my order.

theo
01-16-2006, 02:59 PM
If the pre purchase of nine said buy now but don't ask us any questions about it. Then I might have less of a problem with the situation.

This is not a bad idea actually. Though you may rue the day this was mentioned.

I must say I myself have not upgraded yet because I did not want my cash tied up in a late version of LW. I will upgrade for sure as soon as the release goes live.

hrgiger
01-16-2006, 03:03 PM
Well, I pre-ordered because I had the cash available at the time and knew that money wouldn't be as available around the time of it's supposed release(christmas). It doesn't change the fact that I would like to know more about when Lightwave 9 will be released, but again, I would settle for some more videos detailing some of the new features.

dballesg
01-16-2006, 03:29 PM
I think Newtek should really avoid the Pre release order strategy in future- and I say that as someone who has benifited from it.

The deals they put together are very good, and I'm sure there are good cash flow reasons for offering them, but the fact is you do feel different about a delayed release if you have already paid up front.

The fact that I am sitting here still not even knowing the details of what I have paid for months ago is really irritating- had I not preordered I don't think I would feel the same way.

Ok, I know it's my own fault for preordering in the first place- I should have known better- but that doesn't change the way I feel about it.

It's true that Newtek are in a no win situation here as regards communication, and I can see why they might choose to say nothing untill they have something positive to announce- but I would personaly feel a lot better if I knew what was going on.

It's not that I am desperate to get my hands on 9, but I do feel that having pre ordered-and the delivery date been missed-I should at least be kept informed in some way as to the progress of my order.

Hi to everyone in first place,

I was reading the thread and thinking on not say anything util wonderpup post said almost the same I am thinking.

I really hope as many others, that Newtek it is delaying everything to benefit the users.

I can not think how many users are gonna ask for "blood" if it is not!! In fact look how is this thread going.

I agree with "wait" see what they are doing, but I agree as well with get some information from Chuck, or Jay, or even Mother Theresa ;)

But in my country there it is a phrase that it can be translated something like "from errors you learn". And I am remembering how excited I was when I preordered LW 8 and how disapointed I was with the delay.

This time I am taking it with calm the arrive of LW [9]. And in the meantime to gave good use to my adrenaline, trying to use Vue with Lightwave, one of the most painful experiences I've ever had with any software. :(

But I would like, everyone have a moment of rest and reflexion, and think if there is any benefit on bashing Newtek without we have the information about the release.

I think we scared Chuck and put so much stress on the Dev Team :) that they are afraid to tell anything else until everything is ready. For fear to another bashing or maybe because they really want to gave us that wonderful update they promised.

This are my two cents, and it is only an opinion trying to put a bit of common sense on a forum that it is great, but has lost a lot of that helping flavor that had in the past :( I still remember the mailing list when I had my first LightWave 4. Ahhh good times those! :)

Best regards,
David

Chuck
01-16-2006, 03:36 PM
You can all "analogize" till the Newtek cow comes home. I think the Lightwave community has every right to be irritated at both Newtek's tardiness and their reluctance to communicate with their customers.

Apologies, it really isn't reluctance to communicate, just everyone being involved in things that have us away from the forums. Kurtis has been ill for several days, and I've been on projects that have kept me away from the forums.

The development team is still working on completing those key items and to my observation is making good progress. I'll pass along the requests for a more detailed update on the status. Again, our apologies that we've been so much away, but everyone is working very hard on the product.

Lewis
01-16-2006, 03:59 PM
Right "on time" Chuck ;).

Now we can rest for awhile from this topic?

Looking forward for new videos and Lw9.

cheers and thanks for small update Chuck.

cc3d
01-16-2006, 04:01 PM
They already have allot of peoples money. They have a responsibility to keep those people informed up until they deliver what has already been paid for.

Lets say you go buy a car in cash for 10,000. The dealer says it should be here buy the first of the year. A couple of days before the first the dealer writes you and says Its going to take a little longer then we had planed to get you your car. It will be here sometime "after the first". Now its half way through January and the dealer still has your 10,000 but has stopped taking your calls or answering your emails. You would be getting a lawyer!



What would say when that car showed up missing all four tires and they told "here, we'll send you the tires in a month when they're done!" You'd say, "Those idiots! I would've been willing to wait a little longer for the whole car!"

As for the strategy: you must be new to Lightwave. I've been using Lightwave since it was called Videoscape 3D and it has ALWAYS been delayed in respect to the first time Newtek (or Hastings/Ferguson at one time) mentioned it. Soon we'll all be fussing over installation issues and crawling all over each other thanking NewTek and simultaneously bitching about bugs.

:thumbsup:

dballesg
01-16-2006, 04:32 PM
Apologies, it really isn't reluctance to communicate, just everyone being involved in things that have us away from the forums. Kurtis has been ill for several days, and I've been on projects that have kept me away from the forums.

The development team is still working on completing those key items and to my observation is making good progress. I'll pass along the requests for a more detailed update on the status. Again, our apologies that we've been so much away, but everyone is working very hard on the product.

Je je je minutes after my "brainy" post Chuck answer to all! :) I can believe how much he likes to be the protagonist! ;) LOL

Goood bite!!
David

Chris S. (Fez)
01-16-2006, 04:34 PM
Apologies, it really isn't reluctance to communicate, just everyone being involved in things that have us away from the forums. Kurtis has been ill for several days, and I've been on projects that have kept me away from the forums.

The development team is still working on completing those key items and to my observation is making good progress. I'll pass along the requests for a more detailed update on the status. Again, our apologies that we've been so much away, but everyone is working very hard on the product.

Please accept my apologies for making assumptions, Chuck...and for my impatience.

I am impatient for n-gons, nodal texturing and whatnot, but a petty part of me is simply impatient for 9 to silence the naysayers. In short, I am anxious to see evidence that 9 is as awesome as that feature list suggests!

I am sorry to hear about Kurtis. I hope he feels better soon.

Thank you for posting.

cc3d
01-16-2006, 05:22 PM
you couldn't drive the car home, but you get my point.

I am sure if you talked to the people doing the work at NewTek, they would blame their marketing guys. In most similar businesses it is always the marketing group pushing stuff to unrealistic deadlines.

Regular updates would probably fule more questions and guve us the chance to start soem unfounded panic over the state of Lightwave. I bought aother Lightwave seat in order to get the upgrade this time and plan to purchase another upgrade later. I am as excited as anybody about LW 9 and want to get my hands on it ASAP. However, I sure hope they have the features they promise and that they work or I will be ticked. Perhaps we can get into the beta soon and help them polish this sucker up.

Thanks for the comments BTW :beerchug:

Verlon
01-16-2006, 05:22 PM
Thanks Chuck.

That's all most of us are asking right now. I can understand there are delays, but I do like to know a little about how things are going.

For the car analogies....

You buy the car, and a tornado blows it away. The dealer tells you "there is a slight delay, but we will provide a rental after the first of the year."

After the first of the year, you hear nothing from the dealer.

Of course, analogies work for most people like math examples works for athletes: 102% of them do not work.

KillMe
01-16-2006, 05:30 PM
i dont know we keep getting promices of requests for more detailed update but it never happens =/ well not true the requests probally do but they never produce results =/

StereoMike
01-16-2006, 07:28 PM
I heard you'll get a free copy of Duke Newtek Forever if you're pre-ordering LW 10...

cc3d
01-16-2006, 08:42 PM
i dont know we keep getting promices of requests for more detailed update but it never happens =/ well not true the requests probally do but they never produce results =/


yea , it's been like a year now with absolutley no word from NewTek. Something is going on here!! :foreheads

Thor Simpson
01-16-2006, 11:55 PM
You know what this thread lacks? Enough car anologies.

Nitisara
01-17-2006, 12:07 AM
You know what this thread lacks? Enough car anologies.
- Santa, you are late for Christmas! I have thought out my New Year wish one month ago!
- Oops, you have preordered...

Nitisara
01-17-2006, 02:10 AM
Ok, I know it's my own fault for preordering in the first place- I should have known better- but that doesn't change the way I feel about it.
I think there is nothing bad in preordering if deadline is announced. This just means that you agree to wait till that time.
But in the case of delay (I consider this to be a delay, taking into account that instead of final release we are waiting for BETA) I think that corrected deadline should be announced immediately.
Of course users will readily accept any news from their beloved 3D company, but there must be some news, preferably good news.

pooby
01-17-2006, 02:16 AM
Thanks for the words Chuck.

I would also suggest that this system of 'asking' for updates, is made into more of a 'policy' that Newtek just DO..

It will gain so much respect in the community, and I think LW's 'community' is one of it's greatest assets.

Nemoid
01-17-2006, 02:55 AM
Thanks Chuck its nice to see you back here.

I know the new team is working very hard, but honestly, I can't blame users complaining and asking for some more infos and reassuration about Lw 9.0.

Times are actually chainging, and IMHO NT have to make a huge effort and change the feedback policy a bit.
If we look at companies like Avid, Alias/Autodesk, , Nevercenter and Luxology, they provide alot of infos, vids and in case of delays, like Modo 201 one and Silo they post news about dev process.

Just some post from time to time to say : we have done this, enhanced that etc. would be appropriate. Some vid would be even better.

We have some good info in Sig vids , and in Proton ones , but no real great info update since then.

I say this not to bash anyone, but i thnik things can improve in this area. keeping the community informed is one of the best methods to advertise a product.

Yog
01-17-2006, 05:15 AM
But in the case of delay (I consider this to be a delay, taking into account that instead of final release we are waiting for BETA) I think that corrected deadline should be announced immediately.It's accepted that development of software this complicated has by it's nature a high level of unpredictability. Therefore I think it would be a bad idea for NT to give any sort of firm deadline for release.

Take the case of Maxwell from Next Limit. Anyone who has followed that debarcle can see the absolute folly of giving firm release dates for software. Time and again Next Limit have given exact dates, and time and again they have missed them. Their reasons for missing these dates might be valid, but it has got to the stage that if they miss a date by a single day, there are a LOT of angry users that jump on them.

On the flip side you have Luxology. Unlike some companies that don't notify their pre-paid customers of a delay until the last possible day <cough>, they announced the delay a full month before the deadline. But their smart move was to say, that once a week on a given day, they will not just give a development progress report, but also a sneak-peek video of what is coming. So far they have been true to their word, even during Christmas week.

Having said they shouldn't give firm revised release dates, I do think Newtek would do themselves a lot of good to have better communication with their user base and release more specific information on what is in LW-9 and how it works. Look at the last couple posts by Chuck, although he hasn't had any thing of substance to say about LW-9, the mere fact he has posted at all has eased a lot of tension.

I'm coming around to the belief that software companies would be better off not offering pre-paid pre-orders at all, even if they do offer a free gift.
I can see why companies offer pre-orders, you get a lot of initial sales, mainly because the vast majority of pre-release speculation is positive (hopeful), whereas this may or may not be the case post-release (can't please 100% of the users 100% of the time). On the downside a poorly managed pre-release (Maxwell, LW8) can cause a lot of damage to a company, upto and including loosing long term customers.

Nitisara
01-17-2006, 05:41 AM
On the flip side you have Luxology. Unlike some companies that don't notify their pre-paid customers of a delay until the last possible day <cough>, they announced the delay a full month before the deadline. But their smart move was to say, that once a week on a given day, they will not just give a development progress report, but also a sneak-peek video of what is coming. So far they have been true to their word, even during Christmas week.
Very nice example.

zapper1998
01-17-2006, 06:43 AM
Newtek, we the people [speaking for me] that use your Software.

Please, Let us Know how Things are going, Like the above mentioned appeals of the People.

I am behind u all at Newtek, inc., But we all need a little info, once a week or the rumors start flying, I think they do!

Can it be possable, Like all the other companys mentioned above, in the appeals of the people, can you do it??

Why can't Newtek, inc., do it ????

Please more Info, Status, anything, we are dying [speaking for me] for info.

Michael

mattclary
01-17-2006, 07:14 AM
On the flip side you have Luxology. Unlike some companies that don't notify their pre-paid customers of a delay until the last possible day <cough>, they announced the delay a full month before the deadline. But their smart move was to say, that once a week on a given day, they will not just give a development progress report, but also a sneak-peek video of what is coming. So far they have been true to their word, even during Christmas week.

So go use their product and quit complaining about how much NewTek sucks. Oh, wait a minute... After years of development and creating a huge rift because they wanted a ground up re-write, all they freaking have is a MODELER?!

StereoMike
01-17-2006, 07:20 AM
hmm, it's not about the people or the product. I don't have modo and don't feel the urge to use it. But giving frequent updates on the development progress isn't wrong. And it doesn't spoil, even if luxology is doing it or some fictitious evil company in north korea.

Nemoid
01-17-2006, 07:23 AM
So go use their product and quit complaining about how much NewTek sucks. Oh, wait a minute... After years of development and creating a huge rift because they wanted a ground up re-write, all they freaking have is a MODELER?!

It wouldn't be fair in Lux regards.
Modo 201 will have rendering and texturing features too, and they post updated infos on dev process as well on a weekly basis. surely Modo could be more advanced given all the hype Lux created , but it is going to be a cool app.

Yog
01-17-2006, 07:34 AM
So go use their product and quit complaining about how much NewTek sucks. Oh, wait a minute... After years of development and creating a huge rift because they wanted a ground up re-write, all they freaking have is a MODELER?!I wondered if using Luxology as an example to contrast with Next Limit might be a mistake, as I suspected that some narrow minded people might be so incenced by the mere mention of the company's name that they may fail to completely comprehend the actual message in their blind rage.
Guess I was right :rolleyes:

The reason for using two other companies to make the comparrission was to remove Newtek from the role of either extreme example, and so put them in the middle ground.
If you believe I was negatively comparing Newtek to Luxology, then you would have to acknowlege that I was favourably comparing Newtek with Next Limit. Yet you choose to only focus on the negative ? Interesting.

Yog
01-17-2006, 07:43 AM
So go use their product and quit complaining about how much NewTek sucks. Just to clarify for the hard of understanding.
The point I was trying to make was, when it comes to comunication, Newtek have certainly done worse in the past (LW8), they seem to be doing an OK job now (posts by Chuck), but I think they could do better.

This seems to be a long way from "Newtek sucks".
I appologise if this is the impression I gave, but I'm scratching my head to see how ?

mattclary
01-17-2006, 07:44 AM
It wouldn't be fair in Lux regards.
Modo 201 will have rendering and texturing features too, and they post updated infos on dev process as well on a weekly basis. surely Modo could be more advanced given all the hype Lux created , but it is going to be a cool app.

Yeah, but after HOW LONG? They have been working on this product for years now and the finishing touches (201) are late.

Yog, I'm not mad you mentioned them, I'm glad you did. It confirms what I have thought all along, that people seem to view Lux through rose colored glasses. So what, they admitted they would be late a month before the deadline. Had that been NewTek, people would still be complaining. It will be done when it gets done.

colkai
01-17-2006, 07:47 AM
So go use their product and quit complaining about how much NewTek sucks.
Matt,
I don't really think YOG was trying to be funny in any way.
What he says is valid.
I am a loyal LW user and have pre-ordered the LW9 upgrade, but even so, I am dismayed at the flow of communications, or lack thereof.
A similar thing happened a couple of releases ago and it was hoped by many that lessons had been learned.

I agree, it could just be better to hold off offering pre-orders until such time as there is some idea as to a possible release date. As it stands, many are getting the impression that the product is far from ready, and there is a lot of silence from Newtek. Yes, Chuck has stated they are busy and we know they are a small company, but it does give the naysayers a great deal of ammo.

The truth will out of course once LW9 is released, meantime, I do think some sneek peeks wouldn't go amiss.

mattclary
01-17-2006, 08:18 AM
Yeah, I understand everyone's frustration too. But what's to really communicate? Videos of new features are just eye candy to get you excited, weekly updates on dev progress is fluff, it isn't going to get the product into our hands any faster.

The only thing I fault NewTek for is not padding their ship date.

The pre-order deals have been pretty freaking sweet. We got free copies of Vue for upgrading early. Everyone knows NewTek's record for hitting release dates, we all probably had a pretty good idea of what we were getting into.

Nemoid
01-17-2006, 08:23 AM
Yeah, but after HOW LONG? They have been working on this product for years now and the finishing touches (201) are late.

Yog, I'm not mad you mentioned them, I'm glad you did. It confirms what I have thought all along, that people seem to view Lux through rose colored glasses. So what, they admitted they would be late a month before the deadline. Had that been NewTek, people would still be complaining. It will be done when it gets done.

It is not easy to develop a new app from scratch so the time was probably needed. however i agree people seem to view Lux through rose colored
glasses. they're under some hype for now and i think there are alot of things to be added to Modo to compete with high end apps and go beyond Lw extending its philosophy.

Incidentally this is also what Nt is doing with Lw itself keeping the app in the market.
I actually wish good luck to both companies, however.

mattclary
01-17-2006, 08:40 AM
Let me say one more thing, then I'll shut up:

It's all about cash flow. As a development cycle stretches out, as the length of time increases since the last version of a product came out, people aren't going to upgrade as readily. Say 8.x has been out 18 months or so, people who are on 7.x are probably less likely to upgrade to 8.x as time goes on, because they KNOW that there is a new release due. If they upgrade to 8.x, a few months from now, 9.x will be released and they will feel kind of hosed.

By announcing these upgrades that include pre-orders for 9.x NewTek is maintaining a revenue stream. They haven't lied to anyone, they told everyone an "expected" ship date, but gave no promises.

I don't know about you guys, but I would prefer NewTek be around for a few more years. As price-points have shrunk on 3D software, companies have to be more aggresive in maintaining revenue.

Wonderpup
01-17-2006, 09:03 AM
I agree about cash flow and that the upgrade deals are good- so both Newtek and it's customers benifit from the pre- order deals- but the downside is that people who have already paid feel they have some right to know what is going on- especialy when things don't seem to be going as planned.

So while it's true that Newtek have not lied to anyone, they have missed their own self imposed deadline and should not be surprised if people ask to be given as much information as possible about what is currently going on.

Maybe the truth is that the relatively small numbers who post here to complain are not really relevant in the grand scheme of things- perhaps the focus is on the final release of 9 to the wider world- and maybe that's how it should be.

Yog
01-17-2006, 09:04 AM
But what's to really communicate? Videos of new features are just eye candy to get you excited, weekly updates on dev progress is fluff, it isn't going to get the product into our hands any faster.Whilst it would be nice to reasure people who have already paid that they have made the right decission, the real aim of communication at this point would be to build and maintain the positive "vibe" surrounding the release of LW-9, which would have a direct relationship on new sales of LW.

It's a demonstrateable fact that lack of communication on a pre-paid release is a sure way of generating negative feedback amongst online forums. Either people are being negative, or people are being negative about the people being negative, creating a negative feedback loop.
It's not pretty, and it's not neccessarily logical, but there is no argument that it happens.

Cast your mind back to the Christmas period 2004/2005 prior to the release of LW8. This forum was not a good place to be (and I can't say I was lilly white during this period). Imagine if you were new to 3D during this period and you visited the forums as they were then, would you have been confident in purchasing Lightwave at that point ?
Whilst a happy forum is good for everyone, it's best of all for Newtek, as there is no better advertising than hundreds of happy vocal users.
The ironic part is that it is so simple to achieve. Whilst we might think we want daily progress reports and feature length videos, we don't actually need them, just a recognisable face to pop up no more than once a week to say "All's well, progressing nicely, you're really going to like the final result". In general, as long as they don't percieve they are being ignored, people are easilly pleased. :thumbsup:

Wickster
01-17-2006, 09:59 AM
A car drives into a bar, the bartender asks "what's with the missing wheels?" The car takes a deep breath and curses the bartender. With bloody colored headlights and steel evil grin, the car goes into a an uncontrollable rage. Honking, chirping and exhaust backfiring till no one was left in the bar.

After looking around and slowly realizing what the car had done. Windshield washers started to flow from its sad stricken eyes and quietly says, "I just wanted to know the status of my engine rebuilt...I just wanted my owner to see new videos of my new features." The car sat down a dimly lit corner of an empty bar weeping, "my owner misses me and I miss my owner too."

just trying to take the tension away, but there are lessons to be learned on this little sad story...let me know if you find them. :D

Lee
01-17-2006, 10:06 AM
Before I start, I just want to say that I did not stump up the cash for the upgrade yet since I prefer to wait till a product has gone gold before I tie up any money in it. Having said that, I can fully see why the people who have preordered are starting to get upset. Its pretty evident that the 4th quarter guesstimate was probably just the marketing department getting a bit over enthusiastic, however we have to bear in mind that people have paid for something which they expected to be released before Christmas due to the claims made by Newtek. Its made even worse because this same thing happened when 8 was due for release and you would have thought that Newtek would have learnt from their past mistakes about announcing totally unrealistic release date estimates.

Personally I am happy that I have not yet ponied up the cash since I had a suspicion that 4th quarter 2005 would come and go without a release, however we do need to bear in mind that we are only 3 weeks into January. The thing that I actually do find worrying though is that Newtek have not yet even entered into the open beta program that was announced (unless of course I missed something). That indicates to me that there may still be a substancial wait before the final 9 release is made publically available to all. I hope I am wrong though as I am itching to place my order and play with all the new stuff but we will see....

That being said, I fail to see why they cant release any more videos even though a few of the last batch took a little flak for their content. To just go almost silent on both the info front and the teaser front is just inexcusable when the release has been delayed. I know Chuck made a post yesterday but lets face it the content of that message was just a generic 'everythings going well' message and it was very light on useful info.

Pavlov
01-17-2006, 10:17 AM
The only thing I fault NewTek for is not padding their ship date.

Imho this is understandable, given the complexity of what they're doing.
As i said, getting a good release is much higher in my priorities than getting it soon.
The only thing i'm pointing at is what i consider a demonstration of non-acknowledgement of user's expectations and needs.
Showing trivial, old-way implemented features as first 9 movies was a bad move. Since we're questioning about declarations, a "we're not ready jet" declaration would had been much better (and more professional) in this case.

Paolo Zambrini

theo
01-17-2006, 10:32 AM
A car drives into a bar, the bartender asks "what's with the missing wheels?" The car takes a deep breath and curses the bartender. With bloody colored headlights and steel evil grin, the car goes into a an uncontrollable rage. Honking, chirping and exhaust backfiring till no one was left in the bar.

After looking around and slowly realizing what the car had done. Windshield washers started to flow from its sad stricken eyes and quietly says, "I just wanted to know the status of my engine rebuilt...I just wanted my owner to see new videos of my new features." The car sat down a dimly lit corner of an empty bar weeping, "my owner misses me and I miss my owner too."

just trying to take the tension away, but there are lessons to be learned on this little sad story...let me know if you find them. :D

This rather profound little commentary is made even more so by the fact that the car has missing wheels as observed by the bartender yet is DRIVING into a bar...on what, dear Wickster, is this car DRIVING ON if his wheels are missing?

This is a blatant and failed attempt at profundity that's what it is..... :D If I had my LW9 box here I'd bounce it off your head....

Wickster
01-17-2006, 10:55 AM
This rather profound little commentary is made even more so by the fact that the car has missing wheels as observed by the bartender yet is DRIVING into a bar...on what, dear Wickster, is this car DRIVING ON if his wheels are missing?

This is a blatant and failed attempt at profundity that's what it is.....:D If I had my LW9 box here I'd bounce it off your head....
OUCH!!!
Tis' but a metaphor of a product being delivered early with missing features and parts. thus as to why the car drives into the bar alone. For it could have been abandoned by its owner during production. Whereas having the manufacturing plant communicate and show features then its owner could have been satisfied then the car wouldn't be in the bar in the first place, but on the happy freeway driving 7mph.

It is just a long and twisted analogy my friend. And I would gladly catch that LW9 box you throw at me for it would result in mmyself displaying the LW9 proudly among the sea of Maya users in my lopsided circle of friends. :D

Stooch
01-17-2006, 11:04 AM
So chuck said that he will request more info.

IT is now the next day and apparently the request is not done yet? IF thats how long it takes to ask a simple question at NT i can understand why its never on time.

colkai
01-17-2006, 11:20 AM
Yeah, I understand everyone's frustration too. But what's to really communicate?
This is why I thin kmaybe they should of held off until they had a clearer idea of a release date. Let's face it, a "surprise" release has a much more positive effect than a release where people percieve slipping dates and questions over all manner of minutea.


The pre-order deals have been pretty freaking sweet. We got free copies of Vue for upgrading early. Everyone knows NewTek's record for hitting release dates, we all probably had a pretty good idea of what we were getting into.
Oh sure, the deal was sweet, (of course, you have to ignore the posts that go... "I don't want Vue - give it me even cheaper" :p )

Yeah, I must admit, I'd have been surprised if it had been released when they said it would, but I guess that in itself is not really a good thing. I was just hoping that maybe this time, they'd have had a better picture of the actual release date.
That said, they als ohad to contend with a new dev team taking apart old code and rebuilding new code so there's another factor for time slippage.

It has to be accepted though that there will be folks who will view all this in a very negative light and make plenty of noise to that effect. Debacle, LW dying, too little too late etc.. etc.. (You know the ones I mean ;) ).

I dunno, it's a tough one as I see both sides of the coin here and as much as it seems there should be some easy and obvious answers, life is such that I know things are rarely as clear cut as folks would like to think.

hrgiger
01-17-2006, 11:25 AM
If I hear one more car analogy, I'm going to make a post that starts something like "If I hear one more car analogy...."


I usually take the stance that these things take time and of course we want a bug free (or close to it) app that is held to high standards blah blah blah. But I don't know, this time around (and this personally is my third time around waiting for a major point upgrade with Lightwave), I'm a little impatient. I think that Newtek's lack of communication and/or insight into the new product is poor PR on their part. Right now, it seems to me that they announced the upcoming release of LW9 at Siggraph, just so they could have something to announce at Siggraph even though they had no clue how long it would take to implement these new features in a stable program environment. Perhaps I'm off base, but perhaps I'm not.

mattclary
01-17-2006, 11:36 AM
OK, lets look at it this way, if you were to pre-order a copy of Notepad 10.0 and it was delayed in shipping, you could still get by with Notepad 9.x, you just wouldn't have the advanced features like multi-core hyper text transport rendering, but it should really affect your workflow, as Notepad 9.x still ROCKS!

Look, Steve, no car analogy! :hijack:

hrgiger
01-17-2006, 12:02 PM
If I hear one more car or notepad analogy....

theo
01-17-2006, 12:16 PM
If I hear one more car or notepad analogy....

Analogize this :2guns:

:D

Chris S. (Fez)
01-17-2006, 12:28 PM
Over the past three weeks, my excitement over the "pending" LW9 release has slowly turned to dissapointment and now resignment. The opposite of my Mxxx experience. Every week, I have grown more and more excited in my Mxxx investment.

However, another nameless company recently released a patch for their package that failed to address some serious bugs. I am almost positive that company buckled under customer pressure. In this regard, Newtek is right in restraining themselves. IMO Newtek simply cannot afford to release a LW9 that is unstable and buggy.

Anyway, Chuck posted his assurances that the team is hard at it. That goes a long way. Not that I wouldn't welcome a few more video previews :thumbsup: .

dballesg
01-17-2006, 12:48 PM
A tall man with a coat goes into a small computer shop, inside a chubby blonde moustached old man said "Welcome, can I help you?".

The tall man says: "Yes, Do you have any copy of Lightwave 9.3?". Surprised the man looks around between all the boxes of different softwares and said "I do not see any LW 9.3 box here, but lets me ask Margaret, she knows everything about software versions".

Smiling, the blonde man step back near the door to his back room and shouts: "Margareeettt". He waits a few seconds and yields again: "Margareeettt".

After to seconds more, a voice from upstairs said: "Yesssss!!!!".

The man ask "Do we have any copy of Lightwave 9.3?". The woman answers with a bit of delay: "No, I am sorry we don't. There has been a delay with it".

The blonde man said to the tall one: "No we haven't, we are sorry, there has been a delay".

The tall man said "Ok, I will wait then. Cause I need it for my next urgent not paid job!".

The old man answers: "You'll wait? But we do not know when it would be available sir."

The tall man said: "It is not a problem, I will wait here".

In honor to those two genius of Little Britain!! :)

Goood brite!!! :) (With Tom Baker's voice)

Wonderpup
01-17-2006, 01:47 PM
It is interesting to contrast the mood on the modo forums with the mood here, given that they are in a similar boat- waiting for a delayed release-

It seems a bit less tense over there. Why the difference? Maybe it is that they feel more part of the process, more involved in things? I don't know.

None of this stuff will matter, I guess, when 9 appears- unless there is something horribly wrong with it.

pooby
01-17-2006, 02:08 PM
And the promise of a very bright future..

Lets face it.. that's what we all want.

I want LW to be part of my future.. BUT.. what can I do?

I don't want to complain.. BUT.... you know?

Chris S. (Fez)
01-17-2006, 02:09 PM
It seems a bit less tense over there. Why the difference? Maybe it is that they feel more part of the process, more involved in things? I don't know.


Showing cool stuff can install confidence in the most impatient/pessimistic communities!

pooby
01-17-2006, 02:26 PM
It's a full next gen app in developement. It's by the people who invented LW.
I think respect is due, yet time will tell

I, for one, are keeping a close eye on them, whilst keeping an optimistic and sympathetic eye on Newtek, hoping that they will deliver the goods.

(somewhat ironically, I'm forced in the meantime to use other apps because neither M*** or L******** has what I want yet.. ie Solid rigging tools)

Chuck
01-17-2006, 03:12 PM
Folks, there are certainly a number of messages where the comparative discussion of policies and communications among different companies has been applicable, and has therefore been let stand. However, this is not an invitation to turn the thread into either a love-fest or hate-fest for other manufacturers or products. As our moderation policies state, messages that serve no purpose other than to promote competing products will be removed. So those have been. NewTek's forums are for the discussion of NewTek's products.

Chuck
01-17-2006, 03:42 PM
BTW - please go a little easier on each other as well. Give each other the benefit of the doubt that you are each expressing either your concerns or your differences about concerns because you each have the betterment of LightWave at heart. Discuss issues, not personalities.

hrgiger
01-17-2006, 04:05 PM
As our moderation policies state, messages that serve no purpose other than to promote competing products will be removed. So those have been. NewTek's forums are for the discussion of NewTek's products.

Yes, let's not have anymore talk about Notepad. I cannot agree more Chuck.

cc3d
01-17-2006, 04:38 PM
you order a new car from the dealer ship and give them a $395 dollar deposit, but just before you expect delivery of the new car, you find out that you've got to take a long trip that will make it impossible to be in town when the new car arrives. To complicate things, a crew of landscapers (putting in a sprinkler system) digs up the fiber optic cable going into your neighborhood and your broadband goes out. You call the service provider and they say they think something’s wrong with your NID in the pedestal in your front yard. But you KNOW it is because the landscapers ditch-witched the cable. You see what's coming, but nobody listens! They send a tech out and he checks the NID and everything is fine with it so he thinks it's fixed! But it's not! You call back, they send out another tech and after 5 days of this, they call you and say "It appears that someone severed the fiber optic cable in your neighborhood" and since optical fibers have to be fusion spliced, it will take a few days to get a splice truck there.

In the meantime, NewTek sends you an email (you don’t get) of how to download the 9.0 beta, but you’re out-of-town so it doesn’t really matter anyway.

CC

prospector
01-17-2006, 04:46 PM
But while out of town you hook your laptop to the local library highspeed connection, get your e-mail, and download LW9...
badda bing...badda boom
you smile and just before disconnecting, the librarys power fluctuates and erases your full HD.

(the continuing story should be continued by next reader :D )

theo
01-17-2006, 05:22 PM
Yes, let's not have anymore talk about Notepad. I cannot agree more Chuck.

Yeah- ya gotta love the nurbs option in Notepad.....

prospector
01-17-2006, 05:28 PM
OMG..Newteks bandwidth is so overloaded your download speed is only 12K.................

hrgiger
01-17-2006, 05:34 PM
After your download is erased from your hardrive and your waiting for your 12k download, someone tries to jump-start the tired and humorless notepad thread. You force them to sit on a fire hydrant and swing their legs in either a clockwise or counter-clockwise fashion. Whichever is sure to cause the most discomfort and hospital care.

Thor Simpson
01-17-2006, 08:08 PM
Any ETA on the Lightwave 9 beta? Surely it must be getting close?

Sorry if that's off-topic. Any ETA on the release of Notepad being integrated with a car's GPS system?

Nemoid
01-17-2006, 11:46 PM
Folks, there are certainly a number of messages where the comparative discussion of policies and communications among different companies has been applicable, and has therefore been let stand. However, this is not an invitation to turn the thread into either a love-fest or hate-fest for other manufacturers or products. As our moderation policies state, messages that serve no purpose other than to promote competing products will be removed. So those have been. NewTek's forums are for the discussion of NewTek's products.

Comparative discussions are good if the discussion is constructive.

The purpose should be the betterment of Lightwave that is our preferred software. :)

We surely want Lightwave and Newtek to have a bright future, so that's why we make notice to you guys things that could be enhanced both in the software and Newtek policy.

I think many users will agree on that. :agree:


Ok,happy Lightwaving to you all !!! :thumbsup: :lwicon:

gjjackson
01-18-2006, 06:43 AM
Since NT has been pretty mum lately I can't help but wondering if there isn't going to be some really great new features. Seems like there's been some hints by the sudden silence on some points. Usually when there's a deafening silence after, it can mean someone doesn't want to spill the beans. Just my optimism seeping through.

BazC
01-18-2006, 07:11 AM
Since NT has been pretty mum lately I can't help but wondering if there isn't going to be some really great new features. Seems like there's been some hints by the sudden silence on some points. Usually when there's a deafening silence after, it can mean someone doesn't want to spill the beans. Just my optimism seeping through.

Ooooh I do hope so but I'm afraid that may be wishful thinking :(

Just my pessimism seeping through lol!

mattclary
01-18-2006, 07:29 AM
Since NT has been pretty mum lately I can't help but wondering if there isn't going to be some really great new features. Seems like there's been some hints by the sudden silence on some points. Usually when there's a deafening silence after, it can mean someone doesn't want to spill the beans. Just my optimism seeping through.

You know, you have a pretty good point! It does seem like SOMETHING is going on... The placations just seem more half-hearted than usual, like they have something up their sleeve.

gareee
01-18-2006, 07:32 AM
Ok, I have to fess up. I'm the reason for the LW9 delay.

NT knew my birthday is coming up on the 23rd, and wanted to release it for my birthday, as a celebration, rather then just sticking to a date set by marketing.

I promise I will not however delay my birthday for any reason whatsoever.

No cars were harmed in the creation of this post.

All kidding aside, my biggest yearnings, are for the newer faster opengl interface, and the new modeler edge tools.

That's my driving eagerness for LW9.. to increase the developement speed in modeler. I bought a new graphics card a few months ago, along with a new system, doubled it's memory, and short of going to 64 windows, there isn't a whole lot I can do to speed up my new system, yet if I load a heavy poly model, apply textures to it, and then start editing in symmetry mode, my system still slows to plodding crawl.

Yeah, I *can* hide a whole lot of the geometry, and work faster, but hiding and unhiding polys all the time also takes up valuable modeling time.

mattclary
01-18-2006, 07:55 AM
That's my driving eagerness for LW9..

And you ALMOST didn't make any car analogies! Now you must suffer the wrath of HRGiger! :devil:

Thor Simpson
01-18-2006, 08:27 AM
You know, you have a pretty good point! It does seem like SOMETHING is going on... The placations just seem more half-hearted than usual, like they have something up their sleeve.
:lol:

Sorry folks... it's not like NewTek is going to suddently surprise us with an amazing hair solution before 9 is even ready.

The only surprise coming (and it IS a good one) is a beta of 9 being released to those who have paid for it. I hope we are surprised soon. :) Best wishes to the development team. I know they are frustrated and want this out as much as any of us do.

juice
01-18-2006, 08:29 AM
Hey Newtek, why there is no statement about this question ?(2 weeks ago)


... if the users have to wait for the beta, how long it takes to finish Lightwave 9 ?




I have give you my money, and I didnt think it is a problem to say at next siggraph we can show some more from the beta... Why you didnt work with your users ? Why you spend more time removing posts and dont communicate with your users? :hammer:

Will you remove this post too Newtek ? Didnt you want hear the realety ? :hammer:

Panikos
01-18-2006, 08:50 AM
I will write down my humble opinions.

Users buy the product, convinced that what is promised is implemented in a reliable way. By paying money, you allow Newtek to be more flexible, financially strong to move on with the development. This means that users authorize Newtek to use their money with wisdom and have some expectations.

If Newtek fails to satisfy users, sooner or later they will consider other options.
If Newtek is succesful, existing users will become more loyal, additionally new users will join in.

Personally, I preordered LW9 in order that Newtek crosses this sharp curve of its history, with ease. I have some tolerance. I will reserve my right to judge the course and its potentials.

Stooch
01-18-2006, 08:50 AM
yeah seriously, we get a "im going to ask for status update"

and wouldnt you know it, the very next post (after days go by) is "we removed posts that give examples about how other companines keep their users happy". Nice. How about that status update? it is the 18th and there is no beta in sight, and that just scares me.

Wickster
01-18-2006, 09:25 AM
Since NT has been pretty mum lately I can't help but wondering if there isn't going to be some really great new features. Seems like there's been some hints by the sudden silence on some points. Usually when there's a deafening silence after, it can mean someone doesn't want to spill the beans. Just my optimism seeping through.
You know...you might have something there. It's really odd that when users asked for videos of 9 not long ago, Proton was quickly there to jump on the opportunity to jump at the chance to show us. He even went as far as saying something like "I have more videos lined up for next week." (something like that). And then it stopped...

Somebody pointed out seeing the Nodal shader on one of the videos, even though its not the topic of the video. Proof that users will observe the videos carefully looking for features that might be of interest. Could it be that the videos stop because NT is hiding something in LW9 that we may find out eventually? Did Chuck, Kurtis, Proton and Brian got scolded by management for nearly leaking sensitive information by showing and making those videos open for public viewing?

Disruption of communication is usually followed by invasion. What could the folks of NT be planning? Geez the mystery is killing me here.

Sorry for this analogy but its totally different.

Remember when E3 came about last year and Nintendo showed off a prototype of the Revolution? Everybody wondered where's the controller? Where's the games? Many publications and media were loosing patience because Nintendo wouldn't answer and many were quickly to judge that Nintendo is finally near its end and its the end of inovation...then after a long period of silence they showed off the controller that will probably change the way we play games (ofcourse we don't play much cause we animate and model) forever?

I wonder if NT has a surprise feature that has a similar impact on us? I wonder if its just the quiet before the storm of realeasing something new very very soon? I wonder if this is just a huge speculation and I should just keep my mouth shut until it comes out? :D

Chris S. (Fez)
01-18-2006, 09:34 AM
Ha! That is some insanely wishful thinking :D .

Earl
01-18-2006, 09:36 AM
Disruption of communication is usually followed by invasion.
LOL! :alien:

gareee
01-18-2006, 09:43 AM
I wonder if the darktree shaders will be fixed (or useable) in 9? They were broken in 8.xx, and a bunch of additional free shaders doesn't hurt lightwave at all.

beverins
01-18-2006, 09:44 AM
... too bad it was discontinued!

http://search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbnInquiry.asp?userid=ef6SHXnCDj&isbn=1401843832&itm=65

juice
01-18-2006, 10:44 AM
:help: :help: :help: ... I saw this on top of an other forum, maybe I ask there if it is alredy released... :help: :help: :help:




http://www.cgfocus.com/phpadsnew/adimage.php?filename=get_lightwave9-728x90.jpg&contenttype=jpeg



http://www.newtek.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=26120&stc=1

mattclary
01-18-2006, 11:02 AM
And the link takes you here. :sleeping:


http://www.kurvstudios.com/Merchant2/merchant.mv?Screen=CTGY&Category_Code=03-01

juice
01-18-2006, 11:24 AM
And the link takes you here. :sleeping:


http://www.kurvstudios.com/Merchant2/merchant.mv?Screen=CTGY&Category_Code=03-01



... I know, they have to do removing posts here in the forum, but other Forums also are discuding about this threat, and I dont want an undergoing Newtek. So please Newtek, dont sleep...

mattclary
01-18-2006, 11:30 AM
... I know, they have to do removing posts here in the forum, but other Forums also are discuding about this threat, and I dont want an undergoing Newtek. So please Newtek, dont sleep...

I'm sorry man, I don't follow you. My post meant that banner is not anything special, just a link to the Kurvstudios store. That banner does not indicate that LW might already be released.

UnCommonGrafx
01-18-2006, 11:37 AM
Man!
This has to be why so many developers have left our flock.
Why do so many people want something that's not done?
Why is it that Chuck's answers aren't good enough and patience be had?


Chuckle, Why am I bothering? It's obvious that the crowd's not listening except to what they want. And then, there are the sales-people for other softs.

Why am I bothering...

Good luck to all in their [9] experiences.
Good luck to NewTek and all the engineers forging a better LightWave.

Chuck
01-18-2006, 12:07 PM
yeah seriously, we get a "im going to ask for status update"

and wouldnt you know it, the very next post (after days go by) is "we removed posts that give examples about how other companines keep their users happy". Nice. How about that status update? it is the 18th and there is no beta in sight, and that just scares me.

If you will take a look, I believe you will find that the actual case is that we left in place the majority of the discussion that mentioned other companies because the posts were in fact a valid comparative discussion; we removed less than a handful of messages that were literally nothing more than rah-rahs for other products, with no attempt at using the message for any purpose of product or policy comparison.

Management is at work on its next communication on the status of the forthcoming beta and the status of v9. I'm not sure how soon that would be ready and be issued.

Again, to my observation development is proceeding well. In my view, the difference between our estimated delivery and when the product finally ships is really not due to development setbacks, delays, problems, etc., as some have speculated. The team has made great progress all along on the ambitious slate of developments. The issue at the heart of that disparity is simply that as others have observed, we clearly do have to work on our estimation process, and we will do so, as well as considering other policies and procedures relative to product marketing that would make estimates a moot issue.

In the meantime, for what it's worth, we have a development team that is very excited and happy about their progress and the reaction in the beta team has been very enthused all throughout the cycle of development as new features are brought online in the product. There is no cause for fear by any means, and we are making every effort to insure that the patience of those now waiting anxiously for the release of v9 will be well-rewarded.

ufo3d
01-18-2006, 12:46 PM
OK, how about the video? when will we get the next batch of video's? The frist batch of videos is released a month ago,then we haven't seen anything, and no one could tell us when we will see it.

Earl
01-18-2006, 01:09 PM
Management is at work on its next communication on the status of the forthcoming beta and the status of v9. I'm not sure how soon that would be ready and be issued.
Hi Chuck! While I personally have no problem being patient for this release (even though I'm very eager to see this next great version), perhaps it would help invoke a better moral for the sometimes sensitive online LW community if Jay Roth himself could spare a couple moments now and then to post quick comments on the forum. I know he's probably exceptionally busy, but I bet a lot of the folks on this board would feel much better if they felt they had a direct line of communication with him personally. Not to say anything negative about your posts Chuck, since without you this forum wouldn't be the same at all. From what I heard, Jay's presence at the LW Users Group meeting in Los Angeles was met with great enthusiasm.

Anyway, if you could pass the suggestion along please! Just tell him how popular he would be. :thumbsup: :D :newtek:

UnCommonGrafx
01-18-2006, 02:04 PM
Earl,
That would SCARE me the hel1 away! And I have to admit to feeling a bit ambivalent about having any of the dev team out here, and us knowing it, because of the Rock Star problems that seem to pop up.
You know, where the people behind the product become bigger than the product itself.

To that end, I've enjoyed his pronouncements from "on high", as it were, than here in the trenches. We've not shown ourselves to be above much and I'd not like it were we able to deluge him with our negativity.

KillMe
01-18-2006, 02:05 PM
could solve all these problems with a vid or two of nodal - some edge weighting and some modeling tools in layout

gareee
01-18-2006, 02:17 PM
In retrospect, I think the best solution for Newtek, is to just to NOT presell until it's ready.

or Presell when a public beta can be made available.

If NT NEEDS to presell to stay in business, then we are ALL in trouble.

In August, I remember well NT saying they did NOT want to duplicate the issues with Lw 8's release, and the simplest solution, is don't presell until you've ordered the cds pressed.

E Frontier did an excellent job releasing Poser 6.. they had a target release date, and did not take preorders until they had a FIRM release date.

They delivered right on time, when promised, and though thier servers were of course swamped for a few days to grumbling, the launch was considered by EF and the poser community to be a HUGE breathe of fresh air, and garnered them a lot of confidence in the company and fiture developement as a whole.

The poser community was in a malaise, after years of mishandling, yet current polls show between 75% and 90% of active poser users are using Poser 6!

That is an amazing turnaround from what almost looked like a dying utility platform.

Wonderpup
01-18-2006, 03:12 PM
I don't think it's true to say that people here are bashing the dev team for being late- most of the issues here are really about percived lack of communication from Newtek as to the situation.

One thing I have noticed is that the vast majority of responses from Newtek on these threads seem to be reactive rather than proactive- this leads to a negative spiral where people feel the need to make prevocative statements in order to get a response of any kind, which in turn leads to further reactive defensive statememts which in turn lead to more provocative responses-

Ok, now I sound like yoda,

What i mean is, if Newtek would take a more proactive stance as regards communicating with its users, maybe these threads would not take the rather negative turn they do.

cc3d
01-18-2006, 03:24 PM
give us more COW BELL! WE NEED MORE COW BELL!

This thread is festering at a rapid pace. NewTek is not Microsoft, they have people doing many things there and they have better things to do than try to pacify our insatiable appetite for a status update. Once 9.0 comes out, this will seem like a relatively short delay.

I want features that work and I want more cow bell!

hrgiger
01-18-2006, 05:30 PM
I agree. You're gonna want that cowbell.

I have a fever. And the only prescription is more cowbell.

Chris S. (Fez)
01-18-2006, 09:17 PM
could solve all these problems with a vid or two of nodal - some edge weighting and some modeling tools in layout

I guess it is safe to assume they have their reasons for witholding vids...though mentioning those reasons might improve the atmosphere around here.

Too busy with the pending release to post vids? Don't want to clue your competition in on some sweet features? Fine! No problem. Just say so!

Nitisara
01-18-2006, 10:37 PM
Again, to my observation development is proceeding well. In my view, the difference between our estimated delivery and when the product finally ships is really not due to development setbacks, delays, problems, etc., as some have speculated. The team has made great progress all along on the ambitious slate of developments. The issue at the heart of that disparity is simply that as others have observed, we clearly do have to work on our estimation process, and we will do so, as well as considering other policies and procedures relative to product marketing that would make estimates a moot issue.
As I understood, they are in a big delay and have no idea when they will finish. Hope it will be this year when final version will come out...
Seems there is no sense to ask more questions.

Chris S. (Fez)
01-18-2006, 11:00 PM
As I understood, they are in a big delay and have no idea when they will finish. Hope it will be this year when final version will come out...
Seems there is no sense to ask more questions.

****. From reliable sources?

iaef
01-18-2006, 11:25 PM
****. From reliable sources?

From what I understood Nitisara is just trying to read in between lines from a Chuck quote. So I would say, it is from a realiable source, but from a non reliable interpretation.

I haven't entered since a while ago, because I knew that Roth's words about a beta program would only cause a greater expectancy and eagerness, on me and others. I am sad to see that things are a little out of control among us because of this. Anyway, being an Amiga die fan, I must say that I am getting used to this :jester: ... I would just recommend to leave :newtek: dev people do their work. Pressure (generated with good reasons from users) is only a negative thing to have on mind while developing. I am anxious also, but I have to wait as the rest of us, and better take it calmly. NT has my money, and I just believe they are putting it on good use. Let's hope it turns out to best possible when 9 comes out. My guess is that it will be a revamp of our old and trustable LW we have always knew... no excentricities or huge leaps on technological dingles and bells, but with a new core to start the next gen on LW roadmap. Let me say plainly that I just trust this company and have put my bets on them, because I believe.

Nitisara
01-18-2006, 11:29 PM
****. From reliable sources?
From Chuk's reply.
Without purpose to offend anyone, the essense of this thread:
[ppl] - any news?
[ch]- everything is fine!
[ppl] - any videos?
[ch] - everything is fine!
[ppl] - any time estimation?
[ch] - everything is fine!
[ppl] - so what's the problem then?
[ch] - issue at the heart of that disparity is simply that as others have observed, we clearly do have to work on our estimation process, and we will do so, as well as considering other policies and procedures relative to product marketing...

In August it was declared to be finished at the end of the year, and now NT is silent about any estimates at all, even with beta. So I can guess that final will be delayed much more than we can estimate. I see no other reason to hide real deadlines.

This is my speculation, and I hope I will be wrong.

Nitisara
01-18-2006, 11:51 PM
What I personally was waiting from this thread:

- Sorry, guys, we made a mistake with deadline estimation. At December 31st we were at 30% (50%, 70%, ...) of total progress. So please understand us and wait until February (May, August, ...)



When public Beta was announced I was encouraged that at least now I could work with whatever is already done.

As we are effectively in the holiday season now, we will not be starting this program until after the first of the year.
But January is soon over and still there is no beta, and even no date announced when it will be available. Or I misunderstood what is "after the first".

prospector
01-19-2006, 12:54 AM
I'm reading other things too (between the lines).

Originally Posted by Chuck
As we are effectively in the holiday season now, we will not be starting this program until after the first of the year.

Now this 'could' be to mean either
A 1st day
B 1st month
C 1st quarter

Then in newer post,again by Chuck;
There is no cause for fear by any means, and we are making every effort to insure that the patience of those now waiting anxiously for the release of v9 will be well-rewarded.

Could this be another nicity like before when we got UV Edit Pro?

Soooo MABY, all those that pre-ordered before the 'after the first' statement,
knowing that we pre-ordered in good faith, will get something like HD Instance? (hint hint) :hey:

MrWyatt
01-19-2006, 01:29 AM
Hi guys,
I really read most of this thread even if it hurt my eyes quite a bit, because of all theese frantic assumptions that are instantly taken as facts just because a lot of users are in sheer panic. I have also bought the prerelease and I sure could use most of the new functions right now for my current project. but most of the statements here go over board and do nothing more than stirr up the heat. Newtek staff are no crooks who stole our money from us. We got what we payed for, ie. vue 5 and a free upgrade to LW9 as soon as it hits the streets. And believe it or not as soon as it hits the streets wee will get it. So really no point in getting hostile and pretend that newtek treats us wrong. Remember we got what we payed for. Who ever cannot take this should have not bought the prerelease and should have waitet untill LW9 ships. thats a fact guys, lets face it. As I said, I could use the new features right now, but I am not mad at all


In August it was declared to be finished at the end of the year, and now NT is silent about any estimates at all, even with beta.

Absolutely wrong my friend. The release end of Q4 was allways an estimation and never a declaration, there is a big difference between the two. Had there been a declaration of a release date it would have been a specific date and not something washy like end of Q4. It would have said something like :"LW9 will hit the streets on december 15. 2005, we promise". They never said that and if they had I had taken my money and run as fast as I can because everyone making such a statement half a year in advance is either insane and highly dangerous or simply a bloody liar. None of wich I would give any of my money. But thats not what they said. It was an estimated releasedate to begin with and like most estimates it didn´t turn out quite that way.

Still a lot of you guys behave like freaked out chickens running around in sheer panic hacking on each other and on the Newtek staff. And all you achieve is to look rather unprofessional and childish. Heck, if I was chuck I would delete this thread and have a lot of the [participants - edited by the moderators. Let's not call each other names.] banned just to have more time to focus on the important things, like finishing up LW9 for instance.

just my 2 cents

P.S.
Demovideos would be nice, I agree, but on the other hand, don´t you see that they would only rise the thrill and anticipation in the community. Don´t you think that once we see what we can do with nodal that the stirr and frantic behaviour would simply double?

I say get the videos out the minute LW9 ships, so that we can use them to get started working with the new fearures, and not getting us started just drooling over the new features

Chris S. (Fez)
01-19-2006, 01:55 AM
I could definitely use nodal now. I just now changed about 25 projected textures that could have all been linked to one transform node...can't wait :cool: !

I respectfully but totally disagree about the videos. Assuming Newtek shows exciting, cool stuff, the increased anticipation should increase sales. Increased sales are fun for the whole family.

Case in point, I personally know three people who purchased Mxxx after seeing some of their Friday videos (4 if you include me).

Nitisara
01-19-2006, 02:14 AM
I really read most of this thread even if it hurt my eyes quite a bit, because of all theese frantic assumptions that are instantly taken as facts just because a lot of users are in sheer panic.
As you have noticed, not the delay of software is bothering people, but the lack of information about next expectation of future release availability (because old one is already passed) and absense of beta, announced "not during holidays, but after the 1st of the year".

Nitisara
01-19-2006, 02:18 AM
Still a lot of you guys behave like freaked out chickens running around in sheer panic hacking on each other and on the Newtek staff. And all you achieve is to look rather unprofessional and childish. Heck, if I was chuck I would delete this thread and have a lot of the whiners banned just to have more time to focus on the important things, like finishing up LW9 for instance.
Exactly what company should do after missing expected release deadline ;D

Wonderpup
01-19-2006, 02:37 AM
Hi MrWyatt,

If you have read this thread then you have misunderstood it. No one is accusing Newtek of lying to us, and we all understand that development is not a precise thing and that deadlines will slip.

As Nitisara points out, it is the lack of information that is upsetting people. If the product is close to final beta, as has been stated, then I do not see why we cannot be given more idea of what it is we have paid for. The only reason I can see for not being more forthcoming is because things are still in flux, which implies that the release will be much much later than anticipated, in which case I would like to be informed.

Now, all of this is pure conjecture on my part, and there may be excellent reasons why Newtek does not want to release further infomation at this time.

But to accuse people who have paid in advance for a product that is now late of being 'whiners' simply because they want to know what is going on is a bit harsh in my opinion.

Chuck
01-19-2006, 06:27 AM
OK, how about the video? when will we get the next batch of video's? The frist batch of videos is released a month ago,then we haven't seen anything, and no one could tell us when we will see it.

We are reviewing our process for planning, scripting and producing the video previews. This will take some time and due consideration, and patience will be appreciated.

Lee
01-19-2006, 07:18 AM
Hi Chuck,

I am curious, if thats the case, why wait till now to inform us of that? There has been a thread about the next batch of videos lingering around almost since the first batch was released a month ago...

At the end of the day, we all love Lightwave and Newtek should be proud to have a userbase that feels so passionatly about the future of the product but I have to say that this poor communication loop that we seem to be stuck in is very unsettling.

Panikos
01-19-2006, 07:56 AM
Boiling water in the beginning is interesting, till evaporation :eek:

Stooch
01-19-2006, 08:11 AM
Hi guys,
I really read most of this thread even if it hurt my eyes quite a bit, because of all theese frantic assumptions that are instantly taken as facts just because a lot of users are in sheer panic.
Did you just make your assumption into a facT? because i could have sworn that people are upset about the lack of communication.


I have also bought the prerelease and I sure could use most of the new functions right now for my current project. but most of the statements here go over board and do nothing more than stirr up the heat.
OK, that makes sense, good point, i agree.


Heck, if I was chuck I would delete this thread and have a lot of the [participants - edited by the moderators. Let's not call each other names.] banned just to have more time to focus on the important things, like finishing up LW9 for instance.


Thats funny, you acuse others of going overboard and then make a statement like this??? Wow, a real voice of reason you are... I guess you should be one of the first to go, considering how overboard you are.

mattclary
01-19-2006, 08:18 AM
In August it was declared to be finished at the end of the year, and now NT is silent about any estimates at all, even with beta. So I can guess that final will be delayed much more than we can estimate. I see no other reason to hide real deadlines.

Why announce another date that they will catch heat for if they miss? Software development is not as exact a science as one might believe. You can not say "This code will absolutely be finished 3 weeks from now", it's just not possible to be 100% certain. Bugs come up and you often have to try several times using different methods to make them go away.

ufo3d
01-19-2006, 08:28 AM
We are reviewing our process for planning, scripting and producing the video previews. This will take some time and due consideration, and patience will be appreciated.

Thanks chuck, however it is weird to hear that NT has been planning , scripting the video previews for a month after releasing first batch of videos, and we had nothing in last few weeks. Anyway, it seems NT learnt a lesson after that(null VIDEO). good job, honestly.

evenflcw
01-19-2006, 09:14 AM
I also think it's wise of NT to be more carefull with what they decide to show us. But it really shouldn't take so **** long to make a decision (this infact is another cause for concern).

Contrary to what MrWyatt seems to think I believe videos are not always evil. They will cause a stirr each time, but this stirr may be good or bad depending on what was acctually shown. This is where I believe the december batch of LW9 videos went wrong! If they show us insignificant or questionable features this will alarm concerned users resulting in bad critic in open forums and naturally also give less attention to better implemeted features that were also shown. If they on the other hand only show us powerful, flexible and properly implemented features the concerned users will remain/become happy and only give praise and have healthy disussions of when and what the feature might be used for. This naturally would be alot better for the dev teams motiviation...

So please choose more wisely next time!

Wickster
01-19-2006, 09:34 AM
We are reviewing our process for planning, scripting and producing the video previews. This will take some time and due consideration, and patience will be appreciated.
Scripting????

Is it safe to assume that the next batch of videos will be a full on production value type feature tutorials? :)

Chuck
01-19-2006, 09:43 AM
With appropriate respect.

One man's rah-rah is another man's editorial . . .

As my ethics professor comented, "Supression of opposition speech is generally the weaker argument of those that prefer force to discourse." It's a short haul strategy since supressing speach in one venue only moves it to another.

I humbly offer this as an opinion and leave it to others to draw conclusions on the application of this opinion to the current discussion.

-Harold Swift, Stand-up Philosopher :jester:


I stated the criteria used - if the message was a comparative discussion, it stayed. If the post was nothing more than a promotional message for another product or company with no comparative comments, it was removed. The moderation policies at the top of each forum state that such messages will be removed, and they also state that any comments that forum users have about the moderation policies and activities of this forum are to be directed privately to the moderation staff, not posted publicly.

This is a company forum for discussing NewTek's products, and appropriate respect is abiding by the clearly stated rules; those are the conditions for participation in these forums, and they include civil discussion, and that also means not casting aspersions on the character of NewTek or its staff.

Nemoid
01-19-2006, 09:47 AM
Considereing what you said, Chuck, the advice would be to add something like a couple of months to your usual estimate method. Nobody will complain for a software that is released earlier than announced. on the contrary, everyone will complain at missed esimate dates.

here's a series of advices you guys could take into consideration :

1) Give a good feedback to users. sometimes is great when a person from the team, or of Nt chimes in and reply to some user feature requests or questions. Maybe also a person could be hired to do exactly this job. browse the forum, be in direct touch with Nt dev team everyday and post weekly updates on the progress, and more.

2) Things are improved yet, with some good Lw banners everywhere but a good campaign in magazines is the way to go. Worldwide people people has to know more Lw's name and possibilities as a software.

3) Do a good demo version -pls not limited to 400 points - downloadable by newbies from the website This maybe is in the works yet. if so, good. Put it in bundle with some magazine when it's ready.

As for videos : here could be thought some more organization related to the feature list . other than be only a few (even if i love to see Protons vids) it seems like they are released randomly. About recording, i dunno. Quicktime seems to be a great format to me, even if keeping its size low is not always easy.

prospector
01-19-2006, 11:24 AM
my $.03

There should be NO time estamates given......EVER...untill Program is on way to be put on CDs or DVDs and preorders taken when internal consensus is it will be done within 3 months and posted as within 3 months with a + or - of 2 months.

1....There should be a thread (writable by Newtek only) for major Upgrades (ie 7 to 8, 8 to 9, 9 to 10) that Newtek can post monthly updates on in work projects, but not giving away specifics, like the modeler is being upgraded and all new tools are on schedule, or layout and new camera rendering are up to speed.

2....There should be a weekly point upgrade thread (again writable by Newtek only), giving the progress of any bugs that are squashed, and some new stuff that may be included, like upgrade on HVs or lights, or a new modeling tool like a text manipulator in the works (without giving specifics).


3....Demos are downloadable and put on magazines (as Nemoid suggested), but 400 point limit is more than proper (it IS a DEMO) as you can do a relativly high poly section on a human (arm, leg and such) or a hardbody object. With save disabled BUT able to be transferred to layout again with all saves disabled (it IS a DEMO). This would let you be able to check out ALL the tools in modeler and All the stuff in layout, with any renders containing an imbossed across the pic Newtek logo, so they can't be screengrabbed and used in some project (it IS a DEMO). and also limited to 60 frame anim with only the preview holding the results and not savable by any other means.

4....Videos of new LW inclusions starting when internal consensus agrees that you are on schedule for release within 2 months, + or - 1 month.

jeremyhardin
01-19-2006, 11:39 AM
my $.03
...
but 400 point limit is more than proper (it IS a DEMO) as you can do a relativly high poly section on a human (arm, leg and such) or a hardbody object. With save disabled BUT able to be transferred to layout again with all saves disabled (it IS a DEMO). This would let you be able to check out ALL the tools in modeler and All the stuff in layout, with any renders containing an imbossed across the pic Newtek logo, so they can't be screengrabbed and used in some project (it IS a DEMO). and also limited to 60 frame anim with only the preview holding the results and not savable by any other means.agree for the most part. totally disagree on the demo comments though. look at modo (30 day unrestricted production demo). look at maya (totally functional with watermarked renders and proprietary demo file format). With these you could not only get a feel for the software, you could learn it in detail. more able users means more customers, both in production houses and for freelancers. but i won't just disagree without providing an alternate suggestion. i'll quote my suggestions from the feature request board:
Demo should not be limited to some-odd hundred points and no scene saves either.

In modeler, the objects could have their own format. LWD. exactly the same, except it writes a flag into the LWO that breaks compatability with other LWO supportive apps and only makes it usable in demo and full version of LW.(no export to obj, dxf, or 3ds)

In layout, it could accept LWDs and LWOs, and allow scene saving, but no LScript Commander, no network render, it could have a limited render resolution, and a better render watermark (not one so easily removed. more like Maya's PLE watermark perhaps).

these simple steps would make it unusable for production but give users a real taste of the software. And unless I'm mistaken, it's not hard to code the above changes either! So I see no reason why not do these things. right now the 'demo' is useless.

prospector
01-19-2006, 12:15 PM
LWD is interesting and doable.
30 day unlimited is not tho as you can go into regestry after 30 days, delete all keys relating to modo and re install as if it was never installed in the first place, making the demo ver a full ver by default, as would be true for all time limited programs, and which is what would happen if LW was unrestricted.

And now that I think about it, a LWD would also be circumvented by programs like 3D exploration that covnverts formats back and forth all day long. And maby not that specific program as I would suspect they would agree with Newtek and not write code to do it , but someone would.

so a point or poly limit in the long run would be safest way to go along with the LWD format. Then object could be converted but still only a partial object.

But I can't see how right now the 'demo' is useless. if it lets you test all the modeling tools and all of layout, a demo is just that a demonstration of the program.

Paul Lara
01-19-2006, 12:26 PM
...are only erroneous, pro-NT positions permitted here?

No, not at all, Harold. NewTek has long been a proponent of The Cluetrain Manifesto (http://www.cluetrain.com/) which purports that communications will happen on their own, and no amount of spin or censoring will stop the communications. NewTek is responsive to constructive criticism, but will not afford the luxury of what can become endless debates about moderation policy. People speak their mind on these forums when they think NewTek could be doing something better, and we listen. When the discussions morph into ad hominem attacks or questioning the moderator decisions, the threads will be locked and the poster may lose posting priviledges. Thanks for your cooperation in this matter.

Paul Lara
NewTek forums Moderator

jeremyhardin
01-19-2006, 12:26 PM
but prospector, what you're saying is that a demo is easy to go around and pirate. by that fact, don't release the program at all. people who intend to be pirates will find a way and commit piracy. honest users will be honest users. i seriously doubt that it's the point limit that's preventing piracy (considering there's a cracked version out there I'm sure).

and as far as LWD being circumvented, anything is circumventable. But if you implement a few simple changes in the syntax/format, you break any and every LWO loader/converter as they exist currently. Can those that want to get around this? Of course. There is no pirate-proof software. But the limited demo isn't preventing piracy. If anything, it's driving would-be users to consider piracy.

Wickster
01-19-2006, 12:49 PM
agree for the most part. totally disagree on the demo comments though. look at modo (30 day unrestricted production demo). look at maya (totally functional with watermarked renders and proprietary demo file format). With these you could not only get a feel for the software, you could learn it in detail. more able users means more customers, both in production houses and for freelancers. but i won't just disagree without providing an alternate suggestion. i'll quote my suggestions from the feature request board:
I for one is for the "Learning Edition" version of LWD. Having no time restrictions will surely benefit those that follow online and book tutorials, allowing them to save projects and continue later on. LWD having its own proprietary formats for learning only and watermarked renders it notr a bad thing. Having able to fully utilize all of LW's tools without time limit is beneficial to someone who will apply at a job position that requires them to use LW. Plus it'll be good to have in included in LW related books.

jeremyhardin
01-19-2006, 01:01 PM
I for one is for the "Learning Edition" version of LWD. Having no time restrictions will surely benefit those that follow online and book tutorials, allowing them to save projects and continue later on. LWD having its own proprietary formats for learning only and watermarked renders it notr a bad thing. Having able to fully utilize all of LW's tools without time limit is beneficial to someone who will apply at a job position that requires them to use LW. Plus it'll be good to have in included in LW related books.
agreed. if the purpose of the demo version is just for people who know what their doing to sit down and show a new user how to bevel, then fine.

but i don't have all the time in the world to learn new software, and I like to be able to work on a small project as time allows (not start from scratch every time I get a moment or leave the scene open :thumbsdow ). then later, i reopen the scene, tweak settings, see how things work with each other, etc. walk away, ask a pro how to do something when I get stuck, go back and reopen the scene, tweak and follow advice, etc.

a demo isn't just to see how a modeler tool works. it's a trial run of how the software works in a personal pipeline or production pipeline. if there's no way to see how it will work all the way through that pipeline in production-like manner, it's worthless to a potential buyer.
a demo is also good for developers to download and dev for or port something to LW without buying it, which is good for everyone. But right now, developers are working with 7.5d's SDK. All those new opened features don't apply unless the developers buy LW. If their primary purpose is developing for another application, the port to LW is just too much trouble/money for the end result.

mattclary
01-19-2006, 01:20 PM
I personally fell itimidated and I know I am not alone. My question to you would be, "Is this the environment you want to create?"


Seriously? Intimidated? I don't think I saw your reply before it was removed, feel free to PM me with it, I'm kind of curious as to what it said that would have motivated deletion! :)

prospector
01-19-2006, 01:36 PM
Then what would be the point of a demo?
If as Wickster would like to see happens, Newtek sale would go down drastically. Why ever buy any LW if the demo teaches all you need to know to get a job with someone who will get the program for you?

then if as jeremy says it's a trial run of how the software works in a personal pipeline or production pipeline. if there's no way to see how it will work all the way through that pipeline in production-like manner, it's worthless to a potential buyer, in order to work in a pipeline, the LWD format would have to be negated so that if your pipeline includes another 3D program, it would have to imported to or exported from the other program to ' check the pipeline'.

A demo is just that, a demonstration of the program, that can be used no other way other than to demonstrate the tools contained inside that program, a person should HAVE to invest in that program to get knowledge of it in order to get work.
You have 2 people in front of you,
1 bought the program and learned,
1 used a 'fully working demo' and learned and paid nothing for a year or two, earning Newtek nothing, both are to see you for the same job opening,the both have the same knowledge of LW, I know which one I would hire, which would you?

jeremyhardin
01-19-2006, 01:52 PM
First off, Prospector, I think it's interesting to get different points of view on this. So by all means, keep replying.

the workflow including other software's in an interesting argument. from what I understand, you're basically saying, "Since you can't try it out totally with other softwares and use it through and through for free...cripple it and make it unusable for anything more than a cube."


A demo is just that, a demonstration of the program, that can be used no other way other than to demonstrate the tools contained inside that program, a person should HAVE to invest in that program to get knowledge of it in order to get work.
You have 2 people in front of you,
1 bought the program and learned,
1 used a 'fully working demo' and learned and paid nothing for a year or two, earning Newtek nothing, both are to see you for the same job opening,the both have the same knowledge of LW, I know which one I would hire, which would you?



Your statement about 2 people is rather interesting though. you say that someone who pays nothing on a working demo hurts lightwave. but i promise you that someone who pays nothing on a non-working demo will make newtek even less money.

Because if more people know how to use LW to make amazing work, more studios carry it, more licenses bought, and newtek makes more money.
If the same person learns LW enough to make money on their own (which is quite likely), they'll be hard pressed to get hired directly to a studio with no demo reel. So they'll most likely buy it to get rid of the restrictions and watermarks, render their stuff that they've been saving and working on the whole time without the watermarks, and start freelancing/working with their work that they can now show. A functional demo that's limited in the area that matters (renders and exports) is going to make newtek a lot more money than a demo that's completely useless.
want to follow a head tutorial to see how powerful the modeler is? save often! oh wait, you can't because of point restrictions. that model (if you actually do it) is gone when you close it. nothing to show.
got a model you've made and want to see it rendered? feel free, so long as your model has too few points to be anything but a game model at best, and don't try to save the scene.

As far as the person who 'bought the software and learned', that's quite an idealist position. Especially when they can NOT buy competing software and learn it just as well without spending a dime.

Wickster
01-19-2006, 02:08 PM
IMO I don't think LW sales would suffer by having an LW Learning Edition (LWLE). Majority of LW sales probably depends on Bulk purchases by studios, school facilities and professionals. Someone owning a copy of LWLE simply means that that person will get a chance to learn LW on his own time without worries.

LWLE is a good way to train thousands of potential artist to use LW and have LW as part of their 3D arsenal of tools. They can't possibly create something that would make them money with the watermarks and proprietary formats. So if they ever feel they want to go professional on a freelance basis with 3D, they might as well buy a full version of LW, since they have learned everything from LWLE. Having a "Demo" version would only allow me to preview the features, and restrict me from following tutorials that are scattered throughout the internet. I mean for me I would learn more by following a "How to build a Supersonic Jet by using LW's Bevel Tool" tutorial, than to run in demo mode, create a box run the bevel tool and see what it does.

Anyway, a couple of companies (Alias, Pixologic, Endorphin) are adapting the Learning Edition approach and I don't think its hurting them.

Chuck
01-19-2006, 02:22 PM
Matt, I'm not intimidate by you, you're reasonable (most of the time) even if I disagree with you. I'm intimidated by how the moderators behave including post deletions and other threats. I'm intimidated by the IP-block on a class B network to get back at my business partner. (It missed him, but did make things inconvienient for me.) Maybe these are forbidden topics, but I'm a little tired of having my posts molested and then saying, "If you comment on our censorship, then you're also violating our policy."

That's intimidation.

-Harold

P.S. I'll PM you with my "crime" post that merited the latest deletion. Maybe it will open your eyes to how hyper-sensitive the moderating is here!


A specific IP address was blocked when the user you mentioned responded to a ban by creating a new account from which to post rather than respecting the ban; the address was tested first to insure that no other forum users were showing up as using that IP address. Insofar as the technical matters are concerned, the moderation team has been assured that there is no way that when a full IP address is entered that the forum software would block a Class-B network, instead of just that IP.

It may be just a complete misunderstanding all the way around, but the representing of something having resulted that was just not technically possible given what was done, and the communications and characterizations that subsequently followed on that subject, ended up giving the team pause regarding the request to undo the IP ban.

prospector
01-19-2006, 02:25 PM
These are far crys from a basic 'cube' yet fit within a good 'demo' test and see. with them I can test every modeling tool there is, from building them to adding weights, morphs, textures, bones, whatever is included in modeler.

And they could be saved as LWD as suggested for future work or testing, and can be sent to layout for demoing all the animation tools, morph mixer, any bone tools, FX can be added to test particles soft body dynamics or ant combination of layout tools.

You can build a fairly good spaceship or any other hardbody object with less that 400 polys to check out hardbody dynamics,or animations.

A 400 poly object is mighty fine to Demo a 'Demo'.
There are no tools in LW that declares it must have more to be able to test it.
And 400 could be expanded to 600 if there is a tool that needs more.

Exception
01-19-2006, 02:42 PM
Phew...
this happens every time, with every piece of software. They miss the deadline, people get (rightly) upset about the lack of communication, then at the end of february or so, when a lot of people have walked away in anger and the rest have settled down to constructively work on their renders and discussions it comes out. Then the download servers are overloaded for three days, and then there are hundreds of people that didn't get their cd mailed in time.
It's the reality of a software corporation. True, some corporations perform a lot better, and some a bit worse. Newtek has always been on the bad end in that respect, but I think there is noone that can say that they havn't at least been trying to improve.

What's all the shouting and yelling for? Save it for the guy at the gas station who scratches your car with the nozzle, or some rude and obnoxious person who actually tries to annoy you or set you back. Newtek is NOT trying to make us feel bad, nor tocause problems for us. They solve things in their own way, and a bit of tolerance should be no problem for a civilized person.
Noone gave you any hard guarantees when you bought the upgrade. If you're that upset about it you should have waited untill it was released.

Paul Lara
01-19-2006, 03:26 PM
This thread's original purpose of allowing Jay some time to communicate with this community has been accomplished.

This thread is now locked, and has been moved into its own thread.

:newtek: THE MODERATOR :newtek: