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Ozoka
12-29-2005, 08:24 PM
Hey everyone I was looking at Maxon's new hair module thing and man its looks great...but im so in love with Lightwave...is there a way we can try to push Newtek to do the same thing? :lwicon:

Ozoka
12-29-2005, 08:39 PM
Lightwave is so great but it just needs a little more to push it over the edge. I just sent an email to worley asking them the same thing. If Lightwave cant do it maybe they can.

AbnRanger
12-29-2005, 09:21 PM
You're certainly not alone in those sentiments. We're trying, but it may take an act of Congress (hint: when we are gray and old) before they'll respond.

nerdyguy227
12-30-2005, 09:02 AM
it is a good thing I am still 14

Chuck
12-30-2005, 09:48 AM
You're certainly not alone in those sentiments. We're trying, but it may take an act of Congress (hint: when we are gray and old) before they'll respond.

Please rest assured, we'll try not to take quite that long to get something sorted out on this front! :)

cresshead
12-30-2005, 10:23 AM
nice reply chuck...i'm reading between the words on this not just the lines! :thumbsup: :lwicon:

Emmanuel
12-30-2005, 10:28 AM
I hope Maxon's HAIR was some wake up call...

cresshead
12-30-2005, 10:54 AM
cinema 4d
note, as i understand it Maxon's HAIR is a inhouse 'module' and NOT part of the core app that is cinema4d or any part of the studio module pack as yet...
so it's an additional cost to cinema users..the upside though is that it is FROM cinema so it will/should work with all areas of cinema 4d

3dsmax
in addition 3dsmax 8.0 DOES have a inhouse hair system..developed from shave n a haircut but now it's intergrated INTO max core..no additional cost...
max also has 3rd party hair..hair fx and orntomix [spelling?]

xsi has hair only in the $6000 version of xsi...NO option of anykind including 3rd party plugins are available as yet for lower end xsi versions such as essentials or foundation.

maya [now owned by autodesk] has the unlimited verion with BUILT in hair or 3rd party plugin shave and a haircut plus renderman has a hair capability i believe [confirm??]
maya complete can also used paint fx for hair..not amazing but it's there....

messiah studio has no hair capability as yet.....

z brush has a rudementry hair...not brilliant from what i hear..

lightwave 8.5 has saslite [basic fur/hair]
and 3rd party sasquatch for $400+

spec24
12-30-2005, 11:16 AM
at $295 bucks right now Maxon's Hair looks sweet. I'm not overly impressed with Sasquatch, especially the controls to get the hair doing what you want. Too bad "Hair" wasn't a LW plugin or I'd buy it.

cresshead
12-30-2005, 11:22 AM
the price of the maxon moduel is comparative to the shave n a haircut plugin which is also available for cinema...whereas the lightwave option of sasquatch is $539 inc shiping to u.k....nr double that of the hair for cinema.

i lookforward to see what/how/who does a lightwave internal option......could it be that ole joe is back onboard for lightwave 9.0?

Puguglybonehead
12-30-2005, 11:59 AM
I haven't purchased any plugins for Lightwave yet, but if Newtek came up with something like this, it would probably be the first thing (hopefully it will be 8.x compatible). There's something to be said for developing plugins in-house. They usually function flawlessly. I had Bodypaint for C4D when I was using that app, and it worked just the way it was supposed to. Then again I had also purchased Shave for C4D but could not get it's editor to work at all. Shave for C4D was developed cooperatively with Joe Alter from what I understand.

Maxon's plugin pricing may look attractive (Hair is about half the price Shave was), but their core application comes with a lot less built-in than Lightwave does. You need to purchase 'modules' to get extra functionality that LW users already take for granted. And they only recently dropped the price of C4D (in light of Newtek's pricing no doubt). I think whatever Newtek comes up with will much much better in all aspects. I can wait....

AbnRanger
12-30-2005, 12:46 PM
After purchasing LW largely due to the recent promotion w/ Vue 5, I've waited to see if Worely would make even a tiny gesture in kind regarding Sasquatch (if Newtek can go to such lengths to make 3D software more affordable SURELY WORLEY can make a token attempt at doing the same). It's been, what, 4 months now. He hasn't budged a fractional portion of a frog's hair. Now I am starting to see why Newtek could only afford to go with Saslite. Steve Worley is determined to "GET HIS." And that makes me all the more determined to make sure he doesn't "GET MINE."

I'll just keep working more with Max, now that it has a good integrated Hair/Fur system.

Darksuit
12-30-2005, 12:54 PM
in all of this talk about cinema 4d and hair and all, it seems that people ahve overlooked the fact that hash:animation master also now has built in hair. and its looking fairly nice too. Come on guys... worley just isn't cutting it. I know you all can do better. :thumbsup:

Carm3D
12-30-2005, 01:00 PM
When Sasquatch came out, it was pretty cool. I own it and enjoy it. Course I had to buy another plugin (MeshPaint) to get the most out of it. But over the years Sas hasn't changed much and has fallen behind the the features of the newcomers.

Chuck
12-30-2005, 01:59 PM
i lookforward to see what/how/who does a lightwave internal option......could it be that ole joe is back onboard for lightwave 9.0?

Let's not get ahead of ourselves! :)

Was just letting you know that management is aware this is an important issue to LightWave users and they are giving serious consideration to all possible options.

Carm3D
12-30-2005, 02:43 PM
For the record, I'd prefer to see the bulk of Lightwave's development focused on beefing up the core features. Once it's got a fast renderer, modern IK w/ pole vectors, stackable commands, etc., then polish up the other extras it already has (Cloth!). THEN it would be great to add other fun stuff. But the foundation needs to catch up first... in my opinion. Lightwave 9 seems to be a big step in that direction. LW desperately needed ngons and edge weights. I hope v10 finishes up the remainder of the catch-up work before new stuff is planned.

ackees
12-30-2005, 04:53 PM
There is a worrying trend with LW, first its ahead of the game but then these advances are allowed to languish while what were apparently lesser apps catch up and take over - hare and tortoise syndrome. At one tine I wouldn't even give cinema 4d a second glance but they are doing some cool stuff, quietly but surely they have crept up on LW.

Gettarobox
12-30-2005, 05:14 PM
this thread got me thinking.
anyone think that Newteks relationship with Worley could prevent there ever being a really "better than sasquatch" hair solution in LW natively?
hmm...

cresshead
12-30-2005, 05:38 PM
so, hair maynot be slated for 9 beta...
fair enough..just look forward to other new stuff then! :thumbsup:

anyway fur /hair is not a top priority for ME....and i have max 8.0 IF i need fur/hair anyhow...just waiting for a service patch for max 8.0 to make it stable as i hear it's quite buggy... [not installed max 8.0 till i get a new pc]

Verlon
12-30-2005, 06:20 PM
Everyone has a list of features that are important to them. Lets not get into the "I'd rather Lightwave do ___________."

I too own Sasquatch (and use to own Shave & a Haircut as well). I would like to see a much better integrated hair solution, also. Worley is working on SOMETHING, but I do not know what. It was just something hinted at while I was waiting around for an update so his plugins would work under windows X64.

Maybe he is updating Sasquatch. Maybe he is bailing on lightwave to develop plugins for Notepad. Anyone know how much it costs to hire an out-of-work KGB spook for a little espionage work? From what I see in all those direct to cable movies, it can't cost THAT much.

Seriously, I am glad to know that Lightwave is looking at a better integrated hair solution than SAS-Lite. It would be really nice if it was just like a surface, with no shaders or anything to load :D (or at least transparent to the user)

Thor Simpson
12-30-2005, 07:42 PM
People need to stop worrying about hair and embrace the bald revolution that Lightwave supporters should all endorse. Just make it COOL to be bald! :hey:

Ozoka
12-30-2005, 08:43 PM
Let's not get ahead of ourselves! :)

Was just letting you know that management is aware this is an important issue to LightWave users and they are giving serious consideration to all possible options.

I dont think it should be a serious consideration, it needs to be done. Like I said before in the begining of this tread, either Newtek or Worley needs to step up please. And if Newtek really looks at this it's a gain for us and for Newtek. Lightwave would be, I think over the edge of other apps. So it comes down to, do you wanna be the best?

alvin_cgi
12-30-2005, 11:08 PM
Let's not get ahead of ourselves! :)

Was just letting you know that management is aware this is an important issue to LightWave users and they are giving serious consideration to all possible options.


...and dont forget fluids... :hammer: :agree:

Carm3D
12-30-2005, 11:10 PM
Everyone has a list of features that are important to them. Lets not get into the "I'd rather Lightwave do ___________."


As I said.. It was my opinion. And I'll thank you not to supress it.

Ozoka
12-30-2005, 11:29 PM
hey please no fourm fights ok

Puguglybonehead
12-30-2005, 11:59 PM
People need to stop worrying about hair and embrace the bald revolution that Lightwave supporters should all endorse. Just make it COOL to be bald! :hey:

Finally some real 21st century thinking!! ;)

Like I said, I think I'll just wait and see what Newtek has in mind. As for other apps 'catching up' to Lightwave, I switched from C4D to Lightwave `cause I think LW is better. The rendering is much nicer quality with a lot more options. It's a tad slower than C4D at times (although I found C4D extremely slow at rendering procedurals), but I like the results from LW's renderer much better, which was my main reason for switching.

I'll probably just use a polygonal approach to hair, in the meantime and use Saslite to fill in the cracks. I think something good is in store for us.

AbnRanger
12-31-2005, 03:41 AM
People need to stop worrying about hair and embrace the bald revolution that Lightwave supporters should all endorse. Just make it COOL to be bald! :hey:
A bald Howard Stern model would be cool....but then he might float away or something, without all that hair to weigh him down. But bald Gorillas, and squirrels, etc?

You can't have a bunch of bald chicks running around in todays games...no matter how thin the wasteline and busty they may be...the bald look might spoil gamers labido! We couldn't have that! There'd be massive riots outside Newtek's offices. It would be the end of LW as we know it. DO NOT mess with a young man's testosterone levels.

hrgiger
12-31-2005, 08:15 AM
I wrote Worley several months ago to inquire about any possible updates to Sasquatch. I was told at the time that Sasquatch will be updated but it wouldn't be anytime soon (this was not long after Fprime was released so I imagine they were pretty focused on that at the time). I'm hoping that with improvements with the LW SDK, it will allow Worley more flexibility in bringing us a better hair solution without some of it's current liabilities.

Emmanuel
12-31-2005, 10:18 AM
Heck, I have never bought a Worley plugin, yet I am very happy we have him as a developer of some unique tools for LW.
But frankly, I don't dig in the actual paradigm of how to implant the hair (before we talk about shading).It is so tedious (without Hairspary I heard) and old fashioned, I guess what I want is a new, fast, intuitive way of giving characters virtual hair and shape the hair, too.
If HAIR was available for LW I would prefer it to Sasquatch, because it is cheaper and looks easier to use and get great results with, period.
I am not gonna pay 500 bucks for a hair plugin if I don't need to, but HAIR I would buy even if I hadn't a job requiring it, because its just plain cool looking.
And I would love NT to make it, instead of a third party, third parties are always rsiky business when it comes to such important things.

AbnRanger
12-31-2005, 11:13 AM
Aww, come on now Emmanuel. That's harsh criticism for a program that used Saslite to do the hair on Gollum?
(ducking and running)

Emmanuel
12-31-2005, 11:18 AM
Dam'n right, dam'n right, I take it back.
I heard it was also used for some digital hair matchmoving on Frodo's feet ?

Ozoka
01-04-2006, 05:53 PM
so do think its every gonna happen?

hrgiger
01-04-2006, 07:03 PM
Don't hold your breath. Lightwave has been in a restructuring process. While there have been several new additions to features, most of the work has been put into building a stronger base for Lightwave to allow more expandability. I would think there will be more features to come out during the 9.X cycle and into 10.

I would bet on a follow up release to Sasquatch rather then a hair solution from Newtek.

Rich
01-05-2006, 09:22 AM
Here is my take on LW Hair. Currently I use Sasquatch - full version along with Hairspray,Guide tool - both from Hurleyworks (http://www.hurleyworks.com/) and I also use Random Cloner from Pawel Olas (http://www.polas.net/) . These combined do a good job at making the different hair styles I need, it just takes some time. After checking out the C4D demo I noticed a few things right away. Designing the hairstyle was much faster. You have lots of tools for styling your hair. I could grab a brush and actually push the hair guides in the direction that I wanted. I could grab scissors and cut the hair to the length that I wanted.

I think if Newtek is considering doing some type of hair solution that the most important part is speeding up the process of designing the hair. I could easily design 10 hairstyles with C4d hair in the time it would take me to do 1 in LW.

Carm3D
01-05-2006, 11:56 AM
Rich, I tried that too.. I bought HairSpray and Random Cloner. HairSpray was so tedious and painful. I eventually got MeshPaint and I am very happy with it. It does exactly what I was looking for. I create a handful of key guides and it creates hairs between them via interpolation.

Rich
01-05-2006, 03:12 PM
Carm3d, Meshpaint does look promising. It sounds like from your post that you think it does a better job than random cloner. I will have to save some money up and give that a try. If it even just cuts the time it takes me to make a hairstyle in half it will be worth the price.

Edit: to fix my stupid typing errors :twak:

Carm3D
01-05-2006, 03:39 PM
I would say it makes the job take 1/6th of the time -unles the wig is really complex.

Puguglybonehead
01-05-2006, 04:58 PM
I was looking at MeshPaint as an alternative to purchasing Sasquatch. MeshPaint creates hair as polygons, doesn't it? Is anyone using it alone to create hair (not just hair-guides)? Just wondering how much RAM it takes to make a decent head of hair with it. I used to use Hair Dept. with C4D, which created all poly's. It was a bit too resource-intensive for animating with, but great for stills.

lwaddict
01-06-2006, 09:28 AM
Hey, very kewl that everyone found programs for the plug ins for the programs that they wanted to make hair in.

LOL...wouldn't that be a great advertising line for Sasquatch full?

"No WAIT there's more!...with the expense of a few more packages from other vendors...you can actually make the hair you want!"

NOW, how much would you pay? :D

NT, you guys tell me that Joe's back and I'll repaint the office building for ya...no charge. :thumbsup:

Stooch
01-06-2006, 09:33 AM
Wow, that puts a damper on my plans to purchase the full version of sasquach.

Carm3D
01-06-2006, 09:58 AM
Stooch,

All this talk is about making long hair wig models. If you needs are for fur, Sasquatch is very powerful and capable all by itsself.

Puguglybonehead,

Yeah you could use it without sasquatch. It would definently be a different look from Sasquatch (unless you model millions of hair models which would be crazy). You could in theory use MeshPaint create little quad-poly strips that have a hair texture mapped on it. That wouldn't look too bad for some situations. I prefer MeshPaint + Sasquatch because 2-point hair guides lend themselves very well to ClothFX for animating the hair (semi) realistically. Check out these test animations:

FurBall.MP4 (http://www.Carm3D.net/FurBall.MP4)
FurBall2.MP4 (http://www.Carm3D.net/FurBall2.MP4)
FurBall3.MP4 (http://www.Carm3D.net/FurBall3.MP4)

Puguglybonehead
01-06-2006, 10:24 AM
Those clips with ClothFX look great! Looks as convincing as anything I've seen done with other packages. Still not ready to put out that wad of cash for Sasquatch though. The method using quad poly-strips is pretty much what I had in mind. I did something similar with Hair Dept in C4D. Having the animatable hair-guides looks like a plus either way.

jesusguijarro
01-06-2006, 12:32 PM
Hi,

It looks like we arenīt going to have any sasquatch upgrade in this year like worley support tell me.

<It's unlikely the new Sasquatch will be released this year and it definitely
<won't be ready by May.
<
<-Worley Labs

If Newtek could do a Hair solution could be good

Ozoka
01-07-2006, 02:07 PM
Maybe we should try to get Shave and Haircut onto Lw or something...I dont think the old one works on 8.5.. or something please...im tryn to do a lions main and man, im gonna kill someone. Hey Carm3d think u can write up a quick tutorial on meshpaint?

Carm3D
01-07-2006, 02:23 PM
No, the documentation that comes with MeshPaint is pretty decent. If you have a specific question I can try to answer it.

cresshead
01-07-2006, 02:32 PM
maybe someone at newtek or a big lightwave studio could persuade the creators of ornatrix for max to port it over to lightwave eiher for a plugin aor an all on one solution to build it into lightwave...would give them a nice huge platform within lightwave seeing as max now has builtin hair..so does cinema and so does xsi and so does maya........lightwave's out on a limb on this one CURRENTLY.......with only saslite or sasquatch, a $500 dollar plugin.



http://www.ephere.com/ornatrix/

wp_capozzi
01-07-2006, 06:53 PM
Hello,

I was an early purchaser of the long lost "Shave and a Haircut" for Lightwave, almost 7? years ago now. It was my understanding back when Shave was originally for LW, and was being extended to other platforms, that Joe Alter licensed the technology to Softimage, Max, and Maxon so that they could integrate it into their software. The Maya plug-in version remained under Joe's control. The Lightwave version was dropped, apparently because of a dispute at the time. As far as I know, the core technology still driving the built-in hair in those programs is Joe Alter's Shave and a Haircut, with 5+ years of development beyond the original LW version.
Nothing against Worley, I love their plug-ins. It would truly be a plus if Shave could be integrated into Lightwave, even as a plug-in module. Missing in the original Shave was an integrated interface, UV support, and volumetric support, among other things that Joe was working on. I'm sure/I hope the new SDK is friendly to developers, specifically for enhancements like that.
It doesn't seem like a far stretch of imagination to think Shave could be re-introduced to Lightwave once again. Actually, I still use my ancient version of Shave. It seems to be working well with the latest versions of Lightwave. :)

Regards,
Bill C.

lwaddict
01-08-2006, 03:24 PM
Shave had UV support, instancing (replacement of the hairs with LWO's), and then some at the time it was finally dropped.

I still admire him for his stamina throughout the process...afterall, I was the guy who was contantly posting, "Did someone say...INSTANCING?" for weeks while he completed the development of it without hitting me with a rolling pin. LOL.

Joe rocks and so does his product...but I'd prefer to have BOTH products working and in the arsenal. The more the merrier.

Get yourself under a tight deadline and it's all about wanting choices.
1.) Use this technique.
2.) Think outside of the box.
3.) Plugin A
4.) Plugin B
It's nice to have em all when you find yourself unable to move forward and stuck with but one option.

This is the point where you start looking at other packages altogether and wondering why you're not using them instead.

Ozoka
01-08-2006, 04:23 PM
We want Shave and haircut! Something that works tho you know. Its seems like LW gets treated like a step child soimetimes... shave and cut, syflex cloth, muscle tk, Pixars Renderman...do I need to go on....what did LW do to them? LOL
http://www.ephere.com/ornatrix/ this just makes me mad

UnCommonGrafx
01-08-2006, 04:47 PM
Chuckle, check out who was a vp at NewTek at that time and all should be clear.

Gosh, I said I wouldn't get into this discussion anymore... But danggit, Shave would be SOO nice under [9], working within LW and the volumetric version being sped up... Sorry for bringing my wild wishes into this...
LWaddict, I thought joe would push you off the list at that time. ;) He cited such annoyances of us fanatics as something he didn't want to deal with anymore. Even still proclaims working with the corps is better. Wonder how Maxon's re-engineering REALLY sits with him.

stevecullum
01-08-2006, 05:53 PM
The one good thing in all this, is that Newtek have the opportunity to intergrate a killer fur and hair product if they choose. All the competition is out there to see, so there is the chance to create something that really stands out 'Head And Shoulders' (sorry about pun), above the competition in one innovative bound!

wp_capozzi
01-08-2006, 08:42 PM
Shave had UV support, instancing (replacement of the hairs with LWO's), and then some at the time it was finally dropped.

I still admire him for his stamina throughout the process...afterall, I was the guy who was contantly posting, "Did someone say...INSTANCING?" for weeks while he completed the development of it without hitting me with a rolling pin. LOL.


Instancing... Ha that was you? Hehe, the good old days. You should pop on to Joe's Maya list just to ask that once again for old time's sake.

"Wow" features are becoming common as integrated solutions, for example hair and some sort of SSS skin rendering. Wouldn't it be nice to have a package deal plug-in that has a revamped Shave, an SSS shader, and an up to date LipService. That would be a darn nice plug-in, add-on item. We should all pool our money and license the technology ourselves. Not sure if Joe would redevelop for LW on his own or not. Or, since Worley is making great leaps in that area, maybe we should wait and see whats next from them. A SasLite with more features, simple SSS, and FPrime support on a network - that would be a nice package too.

For any plug-in or integrated item though, top on the list would have to be -it has to work-. Second on the list would have to be -affordable, if not integrated-. Wish lists only go so far. Back to sorting through work-arounds and combinations for me.

Regards,
Bill C.

lwaddict
01-09-2006, 07:48 AM
"INSTANCING???"...

So nice to be remembered...LOL.

But seriously...I thought he'd boot me for sure.
But we still love him here. Had so much fun back then...
ah the glory days of LW.

Joe, if yer listening...didn't mean to be a nag, was just soooo excited!
And for what it's worth...that plugin paid off bigtime on my end, even in it's infancy.

Would love to see it's return.

LWAddict

Ozoka
01-09-2006, 08:59 PM
man the old shave and haircut on lightwave is great but for some reason the previews on it render different in LWhttp://www.spinquad.com/forums/showthread.php?p=112947#post112947

Thor Simpson
01-10-2006, 08:44 AM
Well, we know we won't be seeing a new hair solution in 9 since the feature list is out. Hopefully the more stable core is going to lead to many such additions in 10. It does seem like it would be vital before long without plugins.

Maybe we can hope for such things in a 9.5 or the like, but I wouldn't get my hopes up. I would settle for an amazing plugin at this point.

bobakabob
01-10-2006, 09:48 AM
"Wow" features are becoming common as integrated solutions, for example hair and some sort of SSS skin rendering. Wouldn't it be nice to have a package deal plug-in that has a revamped Shave, an SSS shader, and an up to date LipService.

Agreed - Sounds like Newtek are on the case, judging from Chuck's reply earlier.

Tima
01-11-2006, 04:16 AM
i have found an overview of news hair system with c4D

http://www.maxon.de/pages/products/c4d/modules/hair/hair_e.html

i hope newtek will work on own hair/fur native system on LW, cause sas lite really too useless.

Ozoka
01-16-2006, 10:53 PM
I want everyone who agrees with the begining of the thread to write an email to either Joe Alter, Newtek or Worley Laboratories and tell them to please help us out....I think we gotta be even more persistent with things we want. Please...

Verlon
01-17-2006, 01:24 AM
Now that Jimmy Johnson has changed his 'do, I can't even model HIS hair and say its lifelike anymore....

(Jimmy Johnson is the former Dallas Cowbows head coach who had hair that looked like he stole it from a Ken Doll --for all you non NFL followers).

byte_fx
01-17-2006, 02:57 AM
Have to agree with what's already been said .....

WE NEED HAIR !!

Or at least something better than what we have now.

Actually most of stuff is already present - kind of.

The ClothFX trick kinda works. But what about when you intentionally want a few strands to seperate - as happerns in wind - and go whipping around?

Found a free plug at Flay ..... curvetopolychain65 .... that converts a curve to a 2 point chain.

So that makes it easier to make the hair as 2 point polys. Also really cuts down on poly count.

From there use instancing for different hair lengths and 'body'.

Let dynamics work on 2 point polys - something I haven't been able to acheive.

Throw in subdivision for 2 point polys and some decent shading options - Sas just doesn't cut it for anything approaching photo-real hair rendering.

And there you are.

Granted it would still be a resource hog but not overly so - instancing and sub-d should help keep it in line.

Or maybe go the route of letting dynamics work on curves with a user specified degree of sub-d of sort that could give both smooth tresses and kinked-spiked haidos like JJ's new look by simply changing the number of virtual points along the curve and how much each influences the overall shape.

(Aside - much as I used to joke about JJ's plastic coated hairstyle I think it suits him better than the spike look)

Anyway - sounds simple. :)

And will probably bring groans from the coders at Newtek.

But I have faith they could pull it off.


Much as I would like to se a truly good gaseous system implemented in LW I think I'd prefer to see a really good hair/fur system implemented first.

byte_fx

UnCommonGrafx
01-17-2006, 04:49 AM
Have to be honest: you be late to that party.
:agree: This has been an ongoing issue/topic for over three years. I learned how to do 5 min wigs with Shave since this conversation so I'm stoked.
I'm with ya but that is one he11er mountain to climb to only realize the valley below, seemingly, has a sound proof lid on it.
I'm hopeful that present Management of 3D at NewTek is aware of the issue and would like to have a stellar solution.


I want everyone who agrees with the begining of the thread to write an email to either Joe Alter, Newtek or Worley Laboratories and tell them to please help us out....I think we gotta be even more persistent with things we want. Please...

p.s., I can make wigs, if needed, for sas. ;) :thumbsup:

stevecullum
01-17-2006, 08:23 AM
Let dynamics work on 2 point polys - something I haven't been able to acheive.

It does from what I know...

ftp://ftp.newtek.com/multimedia/LW8Demos/mov/hardlink002.mov

But its no substitute for a dedicated hair studio!

jeremyhardin
01-17-2006, 10:19 AM
maybe someone at newtek or a big lightwave studio could persuade the creators of ornatrix for max to port it over to lightwave eiher for a plugin aor an all on one solution to build it into lightwave...would give them a nice huge platform within lightwave seeing as max now has builtin hair..so does cinema and so does xsi and so does maya........lightwave's out on a limb on this one CURRENTLY.......with only saslite or sasquatch, a $500 dollar plugin.



http://www.ephere.com/ornatrix/
contacted the author privately on this. he said that there are tenative plans for a lw port, but not in the near future.

AbnRanger
01-18-2006, 01:54 AM
contacted the author privately on this. he said that there are tenative plans for a lw port, but not in the near future.
I asked one of the staff members at TurboSquid about the possibility of them porting their recent plugin "Hairtrix," to LW, and they said they had no plans due to LW's SDK. They brought the creators of HairFx and Ornatrix together to form Hairtrix...supposedly to combine the strengths of both into one.
Right as they announced it, Max 8 included Shave N Haircut. That had to kill the demand Hairtrix would've otherwise had...that's why I hoped they would consider tapping into LW's market. If enough people ask them and/or Joe, perhaps the circumstances will change.

lwaddict
01-18-2006, 07:28 AM
Given the circumstances surrounding Shave and LipService development being stopped...I'd say that it's probably going to have to be Newtek that talks to Joe.

Please do guys.

pumeco
08-06-2006, 07:44 PM
There's not been any posts in this thread for a while.
Does that mean there's something new for hair in V9? I'd appreciate some 'latest' talk on the hair situation - if anyone would.

I've been considering purchasing LightWave for a while now, but without a workable hair system - I'd be wasting my time.

I need something that will allow me to convert the hair into polygons, so that it can be used within the render without limitations to reflections etc. So, what's the situation with hair and V9, I mean I've tried - but I can't even find any info or demo video on spline-defined hair, or anything like that.

From a potential customer point of view, it's almost as if hair doesn't matter.
Any info would be great :)

RedBull
08-06-2006, 08:11 PM
I asked one of the staff members at TurboSquid about the possibility of them porting their recent plugin "Hairtrix," to LW, and they said they had no plans due to LW's SDK. They brought the creators of HairFx and Ornatrix together to form Hairtrix...supposedly to combine the strengths of both into one.
Right as they announced it, Max 8 included Shave N Haircut. That had to kill the demand Hairtrix would've otherwise had...that's why I hoped they would consider tapping into LW's market. If enough people ask them and/or Joe, perhaps the circumstances will change.

Fibrefactory is coming, and Oranatrix is not limited by the SDK, but the author is not really confident to program in C, only C++ like his C4D code.
And thus is unable to port it easily due to his limited C knowledge.

But we have heard that a Volumetric Sas2 with Fprime support is coming. ;)

Puguglybonehead
08-06-2006, 08:55 PM
There's not been any posts in this thread for a while.
Does that mean there's something new for hair in V9? I'd appreciate some 'latest' talk on the hair situation - if anyone would.

I've been considering purchasing LightWave for a while now, but without a workable hair system - I'd be wasting my time.

I need something that will allow me to convert the hair into polygons, so that it can be used within the render without limitations to reflections etc. So, what's the situation with hair and V9, I mean I've tried - but I can't even find any info or demo video on spline-defined hair, or anything like that.

From a potential customer point of view, it's almost as if hair doesn't matter.
Any info would be great :)

Well, Lightwave 9 still includes Saslite, such as it is. I think that Newtek is very aware that a proper hair solution is a feature that's important to many. I suspect that they're probably working with Worley on something.

FibreFactory sounds like it should be able to create polygonal hair, but it looks like they also have a pixelfilter solution built into it this time. They also appear to have the reflection/shadow problem worked out as well. Can't wait to try it when it's released.

MeshPaint can create polygonal hair, but without proper instancing available in LW, a really high hair-count using polygons is probably not something to try.

pumeco
08-07-2006, 03:48 AM
Thanks for the reply.

I've visited the FibreFactory website, and it look's like it'll be able to convert splines to polygons - so that's really good. I've got some more Q's though:

There's mention that it's used with Sasquatch or SasquatchLite.
By that, do they mean you use Sas' splines etc to create the hair - or does it mean something totally different?

You say SasquatchLite is included in V9.
So, are there any demonstration videos of how it's used in the LightWave interface?
I'd really like to see the process of setting-up/styling hair in LightWave.

Thanks again :)

pumeco
08-07-2006, 03:56 AM
BTW,

About the high poly-count on polygonal hair. I'm hoping LightWave will treat it as polygons only at render-time, otherwise my system would be on it's knees :D

jesusguijarro
08-07-2006, 07:57 AM
But we have heard that a Volumetric Sas2 with Fprime support is coming. ;)

Hi, Redbull. Where did you heard about that? I ask Worley in January and told me that there are plans for a Sas2 but unlikely this year.

mcclell
08-07-2006, 05:22 PM
Ha, that sounds a bit much, I feel just fine with saslite myself. Braids and everything. Course the ultimate fur technique (unless your not worried about render time, would be to copy and paste textured polys all over ur furry creation and have a trans map or clip. Ha, this is obviously not professional commercial rendering, BUT IS excellent for games and applications such anyways was performed by Lionhead ent. Just stunning, if your looking to this , the hair does need to be animated along to match the body movement, besides, in the gaming industry, these such anims are watched THOUSANDS of times by the same observer. And are therefore are subject to much critisism. So I use those two techniques. However if your working full time for someone, it may be a good choice to try out many. Just that I have something against Sasquatch.

Puguglybonehead
08-07-2006, 11:51 PM
Thanks for the reply.

I've visited the FibreFactory website, and it look's like it'll be able to convert splines to polygons - so that's really good. I've got some more Q's though:

There's mention that it's used with Sasquatch or SasquatchLite.
By that, do they mean you use Sas' splines etc to create the hair - or does it mean something totally different?

You say SasquatchLite is included in V9.
So, are there any demonstration videos of how it's used in the LightWave interface?
I'd really like to see the process of setting-up/styling hair in LightWave.

Thanks again :)

I think what they are referring to is using the splines created in FibreFactory as hair-guides for Sasquatch and Saslite. That's something that MeshPaint already does very well. What I'm hoping is that FibreFactory will provide a complete hair solution.

As far as Saslite, it's pretty neat for a free plugin, but it's limited. It does not cast shadows (except on itself), and it does not show up in reflections and there are other limitations (it is a 'lite' version, after all). The full version of Sasquatch casts shadows and reflections and is animatable, but it doesn't work under volumetric lighting, and it doesn't work with FPrime (at the moment).

Saslite is pretty easy to use. There are lots of tutorials. Here are 2 from the Newtek site:

http://www.newtek.com/products/lightwave/tutorials/modeling/saslite/index.html

http://www.newtek.com/products/lightwave/tutorials/animation/grass/index.html

Phil
08-08-2006, 01:17 AM
As far as I knew, Sas cannot deal with reflections in even the full version. That's always been the case and it is such a disappointment to still have no support for this, or even comment on when support will arrive. For the price they charge, one would at least expect a little more commitment from the developer to move their product forwards.

I'd be very reluctant to purchase any of the Worley plugins at this point in time, simply because they don't get timely feature updates - apparently not even if the users are crying out for them. Worley must have some reason(s) for the glacial pace of their release strategy...I just cannot see it(them).

Without reflection support, Sas is unfinished.

pumeco
08-08-2006, 05:30 AM
Thanks all for the info and links.

I'm not too impressed by the idea of having to go through all that lot with a hair plugin. I'd have thought that the plugin itself would have been able to generate the hair-guides etc; I can't see what benefit it gives over just extruding splines or something. I don't have LightWave though, so I guess I'm missing a crucial point.

Out of curiosity though, does LightWave allow splines to have dynamics (stiffness etc) and react to wind? If it did, wouldn't it be better to preview with splines, then, when you're ready to render, just convert the splines to polys? Just a thought, and the good thing would be that the hair would render under any situation possible - because it's polygonal in the render.

Dammit Newtek, hurry-up with that V9 Discovery Edition - please, I need to see how it works.

krimpr
08-08-2006, 06:44 AM
Some LW hair talk here. Pretty cool!

http://www.spinquad.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11582

Puguglybonehead
08-08-2006, 09:41 AM
Out of curiosity though, does LightWave allow splines to have dynamics (stiffness etc) and react to wind? If it did, wouldn't it be better to preview with splines, then, when you're ready to render, just convert the splines to polys? Just a thought, and the good thing would be that the hair would render under any situation possible - because it's polygonal in the render.


Sure, you can use ClothFX on splines. MeshPaint creates polygonal hair from spline-guides. It makes creating the guides pretty easy too, as you can control length, density and angles with weight maps. Haven't tried animating it, but it should be possible.

http://www.evs3d.com/mp_lw_intro.html

Puguglybonehead
08-08-2006, 09:42 AM
Some LW hair talk here. Pretty cool!

http://www.spinquad.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11582

Nice link. Thanks! :)

stevecullum
08-08-2006, 12:09 PM
Out of curiosity though, does LightWave allow splines to have dynamics (stiffness etc) and react to wind? If it did, wouldn't it be better to preview with splines, then, when you're ready to render, just convert the splines to polys? Just a thought, and the good thing would be that the hair would render under any situation possible - because it's polygonal in the render.


I believe this was the way things used to be done, before there was hair and fur plugins. Sas/Saslite is capable of producing fur & hair without guides, but if you want long and/or dynamic hair, spline guides are required.

On the fibre factory website, I think it mentions it having a fur/hair filter, so I believe this is a complete solution. However, the quality of Sas hair is excellent, despite it's short comings.

pumeco
08-08-2006, 01:03 PM
Well, I've been looking into the MeshPaint and Sasquatch plugins - and I can see where they each have their advantages/disadvantages.

What I'm not getting though, it why there seems to be little mention of animating or dynamics. In fact, the only hint I got of dynamics in the MeshPaint demonstration was the visibility of a control for gravity. I'm guessing though, that this control is used in setting-up the main 'resting' position of the hair.

I asked earlier about dynamics on splines - and got a yes.

...but...

Are these splines capable of dynamics while they've got MeshPaint polygons attached to them?

...and...

If they are, would it be possible to control the stiffness of a spline - like making the roots of the hair more springy than the ends?

I'm asking really, because I suppose I need to know what sort of control is possible over a spline when it's to be animated by dynamics. Because although Sasquatch looks good, I think I'd personally prefer to use a MeshPaint/DynamicSpline combo because it gives maximum render ability.

Thanks for the replys so far - much appreciated :thumbsup:

PS: Is there a downloadable manual for MeshPaint?

stevecullum
08-08-2006, 03:13 PM
The basic work flow for dynamic hair, would be to create you hair guides in modeler and apply a weightmap to the hair, for control within the cloth fx interface that creates the dynamic simulation.

You might find a few tutorials on the forums or by searching, to give you a more detailed overview of the features and workflow involved.

Nemoid
08-09-2006, 08:28 AM
I think Nt should at first advance with its roadmap and improve rigging and CA toolset, bring more modelling tools to layout for a future integration, refine CC sub ds... there's alot to do before aadding a hair solution.

some third party could develop another one is Sas is not enough, but i don't think Nt have to do it.

SP00
08-09-2006, 08:49 AM
I think the problem is that Worley doesn't have much competition, so the incentive to improve it takes a backseat. I'm hoping Fiberfactory will change this.

sllink
08-09-2006, 11:03 AM
I think that if Dynamic Hair becomes a standandard toolset within competitive 3d applications then Newtek must compete. If that means increasing the price then so be it. Its not that they have to do it, the competitive market place should drive Newtek to do it. Then Newtek could maybe set the Bar for the Worley's and others to create a better mousetrap. Saslite maybe ok for some things but comparitively, Im not sure if it stacks up to the competition.

my .02

pumeco
08-09-2006, 12:52 PM
My take on whether Newtek should build-in a good hair solution is...

...YES!

I know I'd like to see it, and if the size of this thread is any indication of 'buzz', I think a lot of others want to see it as well.

I've been considering LightWave for some time now (on and off). Finally, after much thinking time and researching of possibilities - I've decided to sell-up my Cinema4D bundle and move over to LightWave.

The point is though, if it were not for the availability of plugins like MeshPaint, I wouldn't be willing to do that. I think a good Hair and Dynamics system are vital requirements - unless of course, you never plan on doing anything other than cars and buildings etc.

It's just great to know it's 'there' when you need it.

BTW, if anyone fancies getting into C4D, click my sig :)

Ozoka
08-09-2006, 02:31 PM
Lightwave needs to ask some other company for help...has anyone every used shave and a haircut for maya.....its sad how great it looks....syflex is coming to LW all they need is shave.

cresshead
08-09-2006, 02:34 PM
let's take a quick look at the competiting 3d apps regard hair/fur...to judge if newtek needs to...

3dsmax..hair fur now built in
maya....complete..you'd have to add shave n a haircut for a few $$$
maya unlimited..you get maya fur
xsi foundation..no fur but there is a 3rd party plugin [not wow..but okay] $50
xsi essentials..no fur but there is a 3rd party plugin [not wow..but okay] $50
xsi advanced...has hair built in
cinema4d...not in the core app but you can buy the hair module for $200ish
messiah..no hair...
zbrush...no proper hair in the renderer...
maxwell...no hair as yet [i think..]
modo 202...no hair/fur...or animation or bones!

so...only
3dsmax, maya unlimited, cinema studio and xsi advanced actually ship with a fur/hair renderer of anysort
...basically the cheapest option here to have a built in fur/hair would be cinema studio...but that's about 2.5 to 3 times the price of lightwave 9.....

and lightwave has built in fur/hair...not WOW but okay...


lightwave....
has saslite...displacement based fur as well in lw9
3rd party...sasquatch, meshpaint, fibre factory

so..where does that take us!:D

Puguglybonehead
08-09-2006, 09:59 PM
I've been considering LightWave for some time now (on and off). Finally, after much thinking time and researching of possibilities - I've decided to sell-up my Cinema4D bundle and move over to LightWave.


You won't regret it. Although I hung onto my old seat of C4D 7.3 XL, I seldom have the urge to fire it up now. There are just so many things that you can do in Lightwave that you can't do in C4D. That, plus the LW renderer gives much nicer results (although it's a tad slower than C4D).

Just curious, I noticed that you had Shave 2.5 with it as well. Were you able to get the Shave editor to work properly? Mine would just completely freeze whenever I tried to edit (y'know, style?) my 'hair', no matter which computer I used it with, and Maxon couldn't give me an answer for it (part of my reason for moving to Lightwave).

wacom
08-10-2006, 12:00 AM
xsi has hair only in the $6000 version of xsi...NO option of anykind including 3rd party plugins are available as yet for lower end xsi versions such as essentials or foundation.



NOT WOW? I'd say it's wow for the money and because it's made by one guy (who also gave us a parralax node for free and a volumic medical node that reads files from CAT scans etc.) Are you trying to tell me that my lame attempts with the plugin are on the same "not wow but OK" level as Saslite? Typical Max user- if there isn't some hidden "give me awsome hair ASAP" button then it's "ok, but not WOW"! (you can take a friendly jab right?)

The option is called Bhairy http://shaders.moederogall.com/BHairy/ (named after Ben Moederogall) which is $80 and works very well given its state of development. I got it for $50 because I bought it early. I've made feathers with it, toon hair (since it's node based) and even a jelly fish. It's not the "best and brightest" but he's adding new features everyday- and it renders with the same engine as the native XSI hair. Being a hair shading system, it's complex to use, but fun. It can even use raytraced shadows, shadow maps, or volumic shadow maps.

I think that LW could easily have a 3rd party do it if the nodes have the right connections...but there is a lot there that I don't know about. So yah...LW needs a new hair solution that isn't "killer" expensive but I think It can happen soon! And you have to hand it to Proton for that APS hack- very cool given what he was using to do it- and it looks good for short hair etc.

pumeco
08-10-2006, 09:14 AM
Just curious, I noticed that you had Shave 2.5 with it as well. Were you able to get the Shave editor to work properly? Mine would just completely freeze whenever I tried to edit (y'know, style?) my 'hair', no matter which computer I used it with, and Maxon couldn't give me an answer for it (part of my reason for moving to Lightwave).

Were you actually using 2.5 like I am?
I ask because I hear there were problems with 2.0, that's why I waited for the (then announced) 2.5.

It works really well on my system ( Celeron2.6 - 1.25Gig RAM ), I just don't have any prob's with it.
In fact, during my entire time with Cinema4D (including Shave), I don't think I've had more than two crashes, it's been extremely reliable in all respects. It's sad you couldn't use it though, because Shave2.5 in Cinema4D is excellent. That's why I was cautious about moving over to another program.

Bad luck man, that's a bummer.

Puguglybonehead
08-10-2006, 10:06 AM
Were you actually using 2.5 like I am?
I ask because I hear there were problems with 2.0, that's why I waited for the (then announced) 2.5.

It works really well on my system ( Celeron2.6 - 1.25Gig RAM ), I just don't have any prob's with it.
In fact, during my entire time with Cinema4D (including Shave), I don't think I've had more than two crashes, it's been extremely reliable in all respects. It's sad you couldn't use it though, because Shave2.5 in Cinema4D is excellent. That's why I was cautious about moving over to another program.

Bad luck man, that's a bummer.

I was using Shave 2.5. Just tried it again now, the editor still doesn't work. (I keep hoping, somehow, that it will just start working one day:compbeati .....) Blank window, controls frozen. Doesn't affect anything else on my system. I guess the Mac port was just no good. Kind of an expensive little purchase for something that just won't work. My version of C4D (7.3 XL) was the oldest version that was supposed to work with Shave 2.5, but it was supposed to work. I phoned Maxon US about the problem, but they had no answer for me except to try upgrading my system and/or upgrading to a newer version of C4D. Maybe it needs a minimum 256Mb video card or something (not exactly common at the time). I found Maxon's upgrade path to be ridiculously expensive, and comparing the render quality of C4D to Lightwave, well, it was an easy choice to switch.

Funny thing, I didn't discover Hair Dept (the free hair plugin) until after all this. Had I known about it, I never would've purchased Shave in the first place.

pumeco
08-10-2006, 12:28 PM
If that were my situation, I'd have returned it for a refund.

For what it's worth, I'm using an ATI9200SE with 256Meg.
But I couldn't suggest anything due to the many differences between your and my setup. I'm on a different platform, different OS, even a different core - so there could be any number of susupects really.

I hope you sort it, and it goes without saying - ensure all drivers are up to date.

cresshead
08-10-2006, 12:42 PM
3dsmax..hair fur now built in
maya....complete..you'd have to add shave n a haircut for a few $$$
maya unlimited..you get maya fur
xsi foundation..no fur but there is a 3rd party plugin [not wow..but okay] $80
xsi essentials..no fur but there is a 3rd party plugin [not wow..but okay] $80
xsi advanced...has hair built in
cinema4d...not in the core app but you can buy the hair module for $200ish
messiah..no hair...
zbrush...no proper hair in the renderer...
maxwell...no hair as yet [i think..]
modo 202...no hair/fur...or animation or bones!




re xsi hair shader for foundation [5.1 and above]
it does indeed look servicable..
not in the same league as hair in max, maya or xsi advanced but it is VERY good to see that the lower end versions for xsi as now catered for.
'd be interested to see any links to galleries for the xsi $80 plugin results...

oh n yeah who WOULDN't prefer to have friendly interface/tools to work with...

i'd imagine that there's still some nutters out there grinding their teeth at us upstarts for using pc's with GUI and not relying on graph paper to plot vertex points by hand with a pencil and entering the number in one at a time in a vertex list!
:stumped: :screwy: :dance: :hey:

jasonwestmas
11-21-2006, 08:19 PM
Is it possible to render a Messiah Scene in lightwave with Sasquatch?

jesusguijarro
11-22-2006, 03:24 AM
Is it possible to render a Messiah Scene in lightwave with Sasquatch?

Yes, it is posible, and also combine Messiah and LW+Fiber factory, I have both and Iīm using FF instead of sasquatch.