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WilliamVaughan
12-16-2005, 06:24 PM
LW9 Demo Video-Layout: Build Null Edit Options
Size: 13 MB
Length: 2 min

Right Click and Save Target to Download (ftp://ftp.newtek.com/pub/LightWave/LW9/BuildNull.mov)

richgrafx
12-16-2005, 09:52 PM
i just went back and read the list of all the new features in 9 and i have to say its surprising that this null creation dialog justified a demo video

i am guessing we are not going to see 9 anytime soon

WilliamVaughan
12-16-2005, 10:03 PM
Trying to mix it up...as a character rigger this one is a big bonus to my workflow...I can see that it's not for everyone but I know alot of users that are very happy about this one.

Everyone will have their own favorites...I'd like to see demo vidz for all of them :)

richgrafx
12-16-2005, 10:17 PM
i do like this timesaving feature, but i am just disappointed that your videos did not show things like modeling in layout, the new adaptive mode subdivision surface rendering, shader nodes, tension maps...

i am just mad that it looks like i am going to have a blue christmas

Lamont
12-16-2005, 10:24 PM
Never say never.

geothefaust
12-16-2005, 10:27 PM
Give it some time, rich. One man can only do so much. :)

I'm super happy with the video we have seen so far. Particularly, the video with edges, got me all excited... :boogiedow

Silkrooster
12-16-2005, 10:27 PM
Proton,
I like to intro screen. :thumbsup:
I might not use nulls much, but I do like the idea of being able to change all the settings before the null is created. I think this is a step in the right direction.
Silk

WilliamVaughan
12-16-2005, 10:36 PM
i do like this timesaving feature, but i am just disappointed that your videos did not show things like modeling in layout, the new adaptive mode subdivision surface rendering, shader nodes, tension maps...

i am just mad that it looks like i am going to have a blue christmas

Then what would I show later :P

There will be plenty of demo vidz just like with LW8.....something for everyone!

plus you can see some of those from the SIG vidz :)

loki74
12-16-2005, 11:29 PM
i am guessing we are not going to see 9 anytime soon

Call me crazy, but I really dont follow this logic.

Proton makes a video about a less exciting feature, so.... LW9 is delayed?? :question: I guess you can call me an optimist, but I like to give NT the benefit of the doubt, y'know?

lardbros
12-17-2005, 03:35 AM
But what people didn't notice is Proton was using this lowly video to show us this.....

and get us all talking!

Hmmm, i wanna know

Panikos
12-17-2005, 03:56 AM
Drawing Mode (instead of visiting Scene Editor)

james_dmi
12-17-2005, 04:15 AM
But what people didn't notice is Proton was using this lowly video to show us this.....

and get us all talking!

Hmmm, i wanna know

I guess it toggles between the classic all objects in one big list and some kind of hierarchical list. Iím hoping so because that control quickly becomes useless when you have a load of objects.

Nemoid
12-17-2005, 05:23 AM
i like these kinda little but effective workflow enhancements. i'd add to the null shapes the possibility to load a .lwo as a shape too. it would be great for riggers. :D

richgrafx
12-17-2005, 07:38 AM
Call me crazy

your crazy

CB_3D
12-17-2005, 10:11 AM
I can understand his point. This upate is unique, as we are waiting for the big core changes in LW. At this point stuff ike the build null seems a bit trivial.

Good to see glimpses of edges and Catmull-Clark subd, though.

WilliamVaughan
12-17-2005, 10:26 AM
If it shaves time off of production I want it....

Nemoid
12-17-2005, 10:47 AM
I'd say i does the right job where and when needed. options during creation of items are good. in this case you'll give the null the shape you need since the start.

GraphXs
12-17-2005, 11:01 AM
Maybe the extra button on the object list is for edit points/poly mode! :stumped: :D

As for the edit null, thatz gonna come in handy. :boogiedow

Proton can you somehow use that to edit a normal null already created? Or do I have to go to its object props to chage a normal null ?

Earl
12-17-2005, 12:16 PM
i just went back and read the list of all the new features in 9 and i have to say its surprising that this null creation dialog justified a demo video

i am guessing we are not going to see 9 anytime soon
These small changes that aren't on the features list are often the ones I get most excited about. I think it's great Proton is showing a variety of updates and improvements.

All of these small "insignificant" enhancements are what make the program as a whole evolve and feel more productive. Thanks Proton! :boogiedow

tischbein3
12-17-2005, 12:46 PM
self edited because:

instead about posting a the previous comment on this tool here, I've decided to make a longer explicative post to the support email adress in the next few hours.

Panikos
12-17-2005, 01:01 PM
All of these small "insignificant" enhancements are what make the program as a whole evolve and feel more productive. Thanks Proton! :boogiedow

Personally I prefer to pay for much fewer major improvements, or pay more for them, or a balance between price and features with slight bias towards features.
:stumped:

coremi
12-17-2005, 01:44 PM
i'm dissapointed, at least, i will not consider this an improvement, just cosmetics.

WilliamVaughan
12-17-2005, 02:09 PM
call it cosmetic or call it improvements...I call it workflow enhancement....saves me a few steps...has sped up rigging for my workflow....

This feature came from featurte requests...I'm glad our users asked for it....I didn't think to ask for this but love that I have it!

Chuck
12-17-2005, 02:12 PM
We understand that not all feature demos are going to be of interest to every customer. They are presented as information for those interested in a given feature. The thread for a given feature is not a poll on whether you were one of those interested in that feature, and messages posted for no constructive purpose will be removed from these threads.

Lamont
12-17-2005, 02:21 PM
This a great featurette: This was one of the little nit-picky things that needed to be ironed out.

Wonderpup
12-17-2005, 02:42 PM
As a customer who preordered 9 I do not yet know if it will ship within it's scheduled time frame, I do not yet have a definitive feature list.

I do know that when I create a null I can tell it what shape and colour to be before I create it. Nice feature.

With the best will in the world it is hard not to be prevoked into 'non constructive' responses. How realistic is it to expect otherwise?

Earl
12-17-2005, 02:46 PM
Personally I prefer to pay for much fewer major improvements, or pay more for them, or a balance between price and features with slight bias towards features.
:stumped:
I welcome anything that will save me time, small or large. There's a lot of work that can be done to make LW more efficient and productive, and "parallel changeover" releases need to include small changes such as seen in this null creation video. I'm glad that NewTek acknowledges that there are workflow improvements needed. If workflow was ignored and NewTek only added fancy new features the program would get bloated.

I'm just as eager as anyone else to see some genuine innovation. NewTek has stated that innovation is their goal and I'm willing to give them some time to prove it. Since the core work under the hood is still being completed in v9, my guess is that version 10 is where we should expect some real jaw-dropping features.

papou
12-17-2005, 02:56 PM
i like these kinda little but effective workflow enhancements. i'd add to the null shapes the possibility to load a .lwo as a shape too. it would be great for riggers. :D

i agree... The modeler code exist from age.. names Mesh2Custom... BobHood made it long time ago...(who kill Bob?)
http://www.timaxmedia.com/html/help/Custom_Objects.htm

hopefully, we still have Hurley's CustomNull and Titus Box'O'Null...

nice videos Proton, show us more please!

Ztreem
12-17-2005, 02:57 PM
I think this is a great step forward, even if it's a small feature. I hope Newtek do more things like this all over the app, workflow in LW really needs some improvement.

richgrafx
12-17-2005, 04:21 PM
The thread for a given feature is not a poll on whether you were one of those interested in that feature

i like this feature and i hope there are similar improvements throughtout lw9

Chuck, could you please give us an update on the status of lw9 and when Newtek expects to be able to ship?

Wickster
12-17-2005, 08:09 PM
After many years of using LW, I have always known that a Null is a 3D Asterik shaped non-rendering object...Having too many of these on my last project was confusing which is which. My last project looked like galaxy of 3D Asterik Nulls.

So I also welcome the many new shapes of Nulls, definitely a workflow improvement, for me at least.

jin choung
12-18-2005, 03:56 AM
personally,

i think the issue is that you guys have to be more selective about what you decide to showcase.

the word "underwhelming" have any meaning?

some features are great but honestly deserve to be mentioned modestly if at all. because if you announce it with a big, look ma, fanfare (in this case, a video showcase), there is the impression that this is as good as it gets. the "if these guys are so proud of this...." sinking feeling?

(and this becomes fantastically exascerbated when considering the fact there are other much more pressing issues when it comes to character rigging/skinning than the appearance of our nulls!!! i swear, skinning is not a walk in the park in the best of apps but it is pure **** in lw! the traditional lw method whether it is combined with weightmaps or not is about hoping for the best and tossing salt over the shoulder... it's all guesswork and hardly at all about being to able to see precisely what is happening where - not to mention the fact that non weightmaponly skins can't get exported well to other apps. and weightmap only skinning is an impossibility in lw right now because there is not enough or the right kind of feedback to be able to properly get the results you want. not to mention that it, by default, gives users unnecessarily low level access to data that should be abstracted for faster workflow! i can go on.... i really can....)

imo, this is on the level of touting "star field" as a fabulous new feature for 8.0 or whenever it was. honest to god, i nearly had an aneurism.

you guys may definitely disagree with me in terms of degrees but the issue does appear to be:

"the brand new 2006 corvette!!! now featuring:

- fuzzy dice on the rear view!
- pin striped seats!
- new chroming process for interior door handles!
- much more roomy glove compartment!"

arguably, all that stuff is great. but it's not really what a 'vette fan wants to see in a brochure... especially if the 2005 version's brakes weren't working particularly well or its speedometer simply guessed.

jin

SaturnX
12-18-2005, 07:04 AM
I agree.
Changing the colours of points and polys for example, and other UI tweaks is cool...
But they shouldn't warrant being part of the almightly lw9 preview videos.
You could perhaps show a combination of various UI tweak tools, in the one video.
heh .. Having said this though, I think showing off the editing of point/poly colours in a video, is embarrasing for newtek.
Save that stuff for the text in the preview feature list.

Which btw? is it a preview feature list, or a full feature list of lw9?

i'd say the same thing for trivial null edit options aswell.
editing your null fast and quick, is cool... but again isnt exactly a groundbreaking never seen before advance in 3d software development, and again... does it really need to be in a video ?
At least were lw9 is concerned... ? this is a major point release afterall.


we want hope... not false hope. :)

ColinCohen
12-18-2005, 07:29 AM
After many years of using LW, I have always known that a Null is a 3D Asterik shaped non-rendering object...Having too many of these on my last project was confusing which is which. My last project looked like galaxy of 3D Asterik Nulls.

So I also welcome the many new shapes of Nulls, definitely a workflow improvement, for me at least.

You can change the shape right now. Just add the Item Shape custom object to the null.

Chuck
12-18-2005, 07:53 AM
Once more for clarity - if you have an axe to grind, do not grind it in the feature demo threads. They are not a poll on the feature, and if you have comments about our choices in selecting the topics for the vids or questions or other input on how the company is run, the "New Thread" button is conveniently placed on the forum section index page. Or better yet, we have contact emails and we have a private message system - tell us directly about your issues and concerns where it will not detract from the focus or the enjoyment for those who are interested in the features we've elected to demo at a given time.

And as noted in the Moderation post at the top of each forum, moderation decisions are not subject to public discussion. PM the moderators directly if you wish to express a concern.

lardbros
12-18-2005, 09:48 AM
I just think some people are being rediculous... Proton shows us a few pretty cool videos of upcoming things, and a few of them are bloody fantastic. A single video, showing a minor implementation and people are going crazy?! Not every feature or preview video will be an outstanding piece of innovation or incredible new function, but this is still a step forward for one tiny function of LW.

We still have the lens shader, nodal texturing, weight mapping in layout, speedier renderer and modelling tools in layout to look forward to, and there's plenty of other ones that i just can't remember right now.

JML
12-18-2005, 10:19 AM
I just think some people are being rediculous... Proton shows us a few pretty cool videos of upcoming things, and a few of them are bloody fantastic. A single video, showing a minor implementation and people are going crazy?! Not every feature or preview video will be an outstanding piece of innovation or incredible new function, but this is still a step forward for one tiny function of LW.

:agree:

well I think the new Build Null Edit Options will be great, it's not as important as the realtime openGL of course, but it will help things.
(example, instead to have 40 nulls in a scene and finding which one is which, now you will just have to read.)

1 thing though is I hope that when it's release, the Label in the option will be by default the same as the name of the null.
proton in the video write 2 times "master mover" and it will help workflow if he only had to write once..
and to have also some default color instead of black by default..
just my 2 cents.

WilliamVaughan
12-18-2005, 10:41 AM
As a LW user I'd like to see any and all improvements to the software. Users of this forum specifacally asked for previews of LW9...big or small...they got both.

Some users have said they don't care about Edges or NGons....others said that is all they need...when someone saysd a feasture is not worth a demo they are ASSUMING that what they do and think represents everyone....As seen already in two forums there are people that are excited and happy with all 6 demos shown....

Everyone has their opinion and that is great...I know I have mine :thumbsup:

But to be upset cuz something new to LW9 is shown seems odd to me to say the least....if a feature doesnt float your boat...fine...but don't assume it isnt something someone really wants in their software. Cuz at the end of the day these items came from LW users requests...

Enjoy your Sunday guys!

Wonderpup
12-18-2005, 10:46 AM
I think the problem is one of emphasis. No one is saying the new null options are without value, but they are questioning the idea that that these options should be part of a very important flagship presentation.


To put it crudely, there is a danger here that the entire lightwave nine launch will be made to look ridiculous by the inclusion of relatively trivial updates in new feature presentations. I think the image of lightwave is being damaged here because it creates the impression that such features are being demoed because there is nothing better to show.

I also don't think that telling people not to have these opinions will prevent them from having these opinions- and if they are prevented from expressing them here they will simply go to other, more public, forums in order to do so.

DMarkwick
12-18-2005, 12:10 PM
Can someone give me a couple of examples as to why you want a null to appear as a cube, or sphere etc? Or does a shaped null now have some new uses?

BTW, I am enjoying the demo vids. They all interest me, even if I'm not sure whether I understand them or not :D

lardbros
12-18-2005, 12:15 PM
Can someone give me a couple of examples as to why you want a null to appear as a cube, or sphere etc? Or does a shaped null now have some new uses?

BTW, I am enjoying the demo vids. They all interest me, even if I'm not sure whether I understand them or not :D

Well, a null with it's asterisk type appearance is all well and good, but when you have 10 in a single rig of a character, and you need to choose the LEFT_HAND mover, then you can label them so before they are created.

Also, nulls can be used as place holders for items, with a sphere approximating the shape of an object, or just as a visual representation of something. Naming and changing null shapes has been possible for ages anyway, it's just this quicker way of doing things that is different and speedier.

lw3d23
12-18-2005, 12:23 PM
I think the problem is one of emphasis. No one is saying the new null options are without value, but they are questioning the idea that that these options should be part of a very important flagship presentation....

sceond that. We all LW user know this is useful, but others don't know. Just imagine if CGT or some other forums report about these videos and say soemthing like "NT released LW9 Demo video, including Null edit option...." on their front page, well, this certainly will damge the impression of LW9 to some degree.

Anyway,Proton, it is the time to show everyone that how good LW9 will be , show us those main features demo asap. :D

SaturnX
12-18-2005, 12:47 PM
'item shape' has been made more accessible by putting it into an edit null type option, during null creation. This is both cool and handy.

but..

item shape is nothing new. we've had item shape for a long time.
Anyone involved in character rigging has been using this for ages.
And even though item shape is now faster to access, when creating a null...
(essentially being accessed elsewhere within layout.) It's not exactly a breakthrough acheivement changing the way we access a tool, that was already there.


We are talking lw9 here.
not lw8.6

that was my argument, its a good tweak, and it makes more sense to have item shape as an edit function for nulls... but i didn't understand why this tweak was made into a lw9 video.


The other videos are great though. keep em coming. :)

Do i sound like a bit*h that must be slapped ?

RedBull
12-18-2005, 01:11 PM
'item shape' has been made more accessible by putting it into an edit null type option, during null creation. This is both cool and handy.

but..

item shape is nothing new. we've had item shape for a long time.
Anyone involved in character rigging has been using this for ages.
And even though item shape is now faster to access, when creating a null...
(essentially being accessed elsewhere within layout.) It's not exactly a breakthrough acheivement changing the way we access a tool, that was already there.


We are talking lw9 here.
not lw8.6

that was my argument, its a good tweak, and it makes more sense to have item shape as an edit function for nulls... but i didn't understand why this tweak was made into a lw9 video.
The other videos are great though. keep em coming. :)

Do i sound like a bit*h that must be slapped ?

Yeah the ItemShape feature is part of the SDK examples!!!
and indeed i was recently adding it to my Null Object Replacement
plugin called void (At the moment it adds a ring with rangefinder as well)
And my Voids can be saved with a scene and edited in Modeler, unlike Nulls.

I fear that people are expecting too much from NT and Lightwave these days.
I just don't think we can compete with C4D, Maya, XSI, and Modo...

Brace yourself people i'm not sure that LW9 is going to be the 3D leader
we all hope and wished it was.... I watched the AO video from Lux, and it was simple but effective... And in comparison.... Looked like they are adding features people want, rather than just buying older plugins....
I hope we have some cool videos to come...

I mean people in XSI or Maya, they would simply laugh at whats been done so far. I am looking forward to LW9. I just hope i'll still be looking forward to LW10
I still appreciate Proton and NT putting some videos up though...

coremi
12-18-2005, 02:13 PM
i think the dissapointment came from the fact that most of us expected this simple things to be there and not shown as the first videos about Lightwave 9. This is supose to be the best upgrade ever for Lightwave so simple things like colour wire and point are natural to be there, and they are helping a lot, but Lightwave modeler was already great, and this options will improve workflow, but there are so many things not good wich need imediat attention. Proton showed us the new boolean tool but i wonder if this toll will not give that erorr "internal buffer to small" or something like it when u boolean complex objects. I feel like all the tools updated in Lightwave are always 90% of what it need it to be, there is always something left out to be a great tool. There is always some guy who solve the 10% problems with free scripts. We had to wait for PICTRIX to make a tool for move, rotate, etc.. with snap option, in 2005 there is no snap option for one of the best modelers out there. So maybe this is why a lot were dissapointed, this basic features are good, but not to show to the people who expect the best upgrade ever.

awrieger
12-18-2005, 04:25 PM
After many years of using LW, I have always known that a Null is a 3D Asterik shaped non-rendering object...Having too many of these on my last project was confusing which is which. My last project looked like galaxy of 3D Asterik Nulls.

So I also welcome the many new shapes of Nulls, definitely a workflow improvement, for me at least.

The shapes aren't new, but it is indeed a workflow improvement. One of just many more to come perhaps. Which is exactly one of the many thousand of things 'the pros' have been clamouring for.

Right now, you have to create the null first, then open Properties, then under the Geometry tab pull down the Add Custom Object menu, select Item Shape, then double click it and from the Shape menu select the shape - box, sphere etc.

Anything that saves on mouse clicks and panel openings is a definite workflow improvement in my book and worth showing to existing users.

awrieger
12-18-2005, 04:53 PM
I just don't think we can compete with C4D, Maya, XSI, and Modo...

Brace yourself people i'm not sure that LW9 is going to be the 3D leader
we all hope and wished it was....

Well, for starters, XSI has zero chance of competing with LW for my money. Sod this "buy the system to suit the app" nonsense. I've already got a system and it's a darn good one. *I* choose what system I use, not have it dictated to me by SoftImage.

If SoftImage is not interested in porting their app to my system as a potential customer (which I am), then I'm not interested in even looking at it. Since when does the market have to adapt to the seller's demands? Only in the computer industry where there's an almost-monopoly by one OS which allows companies like SoftImage to be so arrogant. The other three apps you mention, as well as LW, don't have that attitude, so why do SoftImage? Simple answer, because they don't want my business. They make it loud and clear that they are just not interested, and I return that lack of interest - with interest. ;)

And as for not being able to compete, I think quite the opposite. Now the core code is being rewritten from the ground up, the ability to compete is increased in terms of future development and potential. And put them on an equal footing with the newer apps which aren't burdened by lots of legacy code. LW 9 as I see it is the transition, like the first release of MacOSX, from which they can go on in leaps and bounds. They should call it Lightwave 9 Foundation, as it really will be the new foundation they can go on to build LW 10, 11, 12 etc on.

Panikos
12-18-2005, 05:59 PM
I have a life to live, things are changing now in frames than years and I have some ambitions as an artist. I wont expect till LW12.

awrieger
12-18-2005, 09:25 PM
I've seen lots of excellent art over the years created in Lightwave, and none of it was done in LW 12. Or even LW 9 for that matter.

Chuck
12-18-2005, 09:35 PM
personally,

i think the issue is that you guys have to be more selective about what you decide to showcase.

the word "underwhelming" have any meaning?

some features are great but honestly deserve to be mentioned modestly if at all. because if you announce it with a big, look ma, fanfare (in this case, a video showcase), there is the impression that this is as good as it gets. the "if these guys are so proud of this...." sinking feeling?

(and this becomes fantastically exascerbated when considering the fact there are other much more pressing issues when it comes to character rigging/skinning than the appearance of our nulls!!! i swear, skinning is not a walk in the park in the best of apps but it is pure **** in lw! the traditional lw method whether it is combined with weightmaps or not is about hoping for the best and tossing salt over the shoulder... it's all guesswork and hardly at all about being to able to see precisely what is happening where - not to mention the fact that non weightmaponly skins can't get exported well to other apps. and weightmap only skinning is an impossibility in lw right now because there is not enough or the right kind of feedback to be able to properly get the results you want. not to mention that it, by default, gives users unnecessarily low level access to data that should be abstracted for faster workflow! i can go on.... i really can....)

imo, this is on the level of touting "star field" as a fabulous new feature for 8.0 or whenever it was. honest to god, i nearly had an aneurism.

you guys may definitely disagree with me in terms of degrees but the issue does appear to be:

"the brand new 2006 corvette!!! now featuring:

- fuzzy dice on the rear view!
- pin striped seats!
- new chroming process for interior door handles!
- much more roomy glove compartment!"

arguably, all that stuff is great. but it's not really what a 'vette fan wants to see in a brochure... especially if the 2005 version's brakes weren't working particularly well or its speedometer simply guessed.

jin


You have illustrated the problem perfectly in your response, Jin, and the problem is people blowing things all out of proportion. For example, we never "touted" Star Field, we just listed it and showed how it works. The only way we could have made any less of it would have been to not list it on the feature list (which would then have made the feature list incomplete, which tends to make a lot of folks unhappy) and not document it, in order to keep it a complete secret. The same applies here. We haven't "showcased" it, we didn't ballyhoo it across the galaxy, we just made a brief little vid of it as one among what will eventually be a pretty big list of vids because it is, after all, one of the features forthcoming, and like every feature going in it has been added because there are users who requested the functionality. It's a tool, not a decoration or an upholstery color choice.

Wickster
12-18-2005, 09:57 PM
The shapes aren't new, but it is indeed a workflow improvement. One of just many more to come perhaps. Which is exactly one of the many thousand of things 'the pros' have been clamouring for.

Right now, you have to create the null first, then open Properties, then under the Geometry tab pull down the Add Custom Object menu, select Item Shape, then double click it and from the Shape menu select the shape - box, sphere etc.

Anything that saves on mouse clicks and panel openings is a definite workflow improvement in my book and worth showing to existing users.
See! I never knew that. If Proton's LW9 video showing the Null's edit function right off the "creation" point then I wouldn't bother getting properties for each and every null...i mean, what for? its a null!

But now that I can define my nulls more clearly from the beginning, it would definitely help me out in the long run.

These videos aren't the be all, end all definition of what LW 9 will be. It's just the videos "WE" impatient people asked for. Some probably asked to see some major features (edges, modeler tools in layout, etc.) while many of us just wanted to know what to expect on LW's next release. And one of these expectations is the Null Build Up. Plus if I were Proton I wouldn't show all the powerful new additions to LW all at once, getting you all hyped up with each passing video. Then came the final one I show you the awesome video of LW's best feature "It now has a new number... '9'." I he's doing a great job just mixing the video up, from LW's most notable changes to the ones that some of you might not get excited about.

Just an opinion.

Silkrooster
12-18-2005, 10:39 PM
These videos aren't the be all, end all definition of what LW 9 will be. It's just the videos "WE" impatient people asked for. Some probably asked to see some major features (edges, modeler tools in layout, etc.) while many of us just wanted to know what to expect on LW's next release. And one of these expectations is the Null Build Up. Plus if I were Proton I wouldn't show all the powerful new additions to LW all at once, getting you all hyped up with each passing video. Then came the final one I show you the awesome video of LW's best feature "It now has a new number... '9'." I he's doing a great job just mixing the video up, from LW's most notable changes to the ones that some of you might not get excited about.

Just an opinion.
So true. Besides I bet There are parts of ver 9 that Proton is not allowed to make demos of at this time. I think it is way too early for anyone to complain. For all we know Newtek may have some suprises up their sleeve, that won't be reveiled until LW is ready to ship.(just guessing)
I look forward to any and all videos Proton produces.
Silk
Silk

Wonderpup
12-19-2005, 03:31 AM
I think perhaps there is just to much riding on 9 for it to be possible to approach it as a 'normal' release. I can understand Chuck's point that people are overeactng to something that was not meant to be that important.

The problem is that these things are viewed beyond the context they appear in. For example, I have a hard time defending lightwave at work as it is- so when people see minor interface tweaks showing up in feature demos, it makes things more difficult.

So it may be more about perception than reality - but pereception is important. We may think we are only talking amoungst ourselves here- but others are listing in, and may draw the wrong conclusions from what they hear.

DogBoy
12-19-2005, 03:55 AM
personally,

i think the issue is that you guys have to be more selective about what you decide to showcase.

the word "underwhelming" have any meaning?


you guys may definitely disagree with me in terms of degrees but the issue does appear to be:

"the brand new 2006 corvette!!! now featuring:

- fuzzy dice on the rear view!
- pin striped seats!
- new chroming process for interior door handles!
- much more roomy glove compartment!"

arguably, all that stuff is great. but it's not really what a 'vette fan wants to see in a brochure... especially if the 2005 version's brakes weren't working particularly well or its speedometer simply guessed.

jin

Jin, I have a lot of respect for you but that really was too much. I can't believe how much whinging has come out in this thread.

Yes, we all want an awesome new LW9. A new LW wi' plenty of bells, whistles and shiny new toys, but that isn't what 9 is really about. To use your car analogy:


Structural Changes and a New Workflow in 9.0:
The changes that have been made for the initial 9.0 release complete the necessary reconstruction of LightWave to begin implementing the desired new workflow.

So what they are saying was:

LW 7: looks like a porsche, but has the workings of a RouteMaster (one of those quaint old London buses).
LW8: We've got the engineers in. They've looked at our car and gone "*in draw of breath, shaking of head* Ooh! That's a dog! Ooh! That's gonna cost ya! Tell ya what squire, you say you need this out and on the road by Wednesday? Well I can do what you're asking but you really need to do an overhaul. 'Til then it's gonna be a patch job. Alright?"
LW9: They've finally got the Lawnmower engine replaced wi some Turbocharger Vwhatever dohickey (I don't do cars, sorry), they've even given it a respray (in whatever frikkin' colour you want), they've even added some anti-lock brakes, power steering and a 5.1 sorround sound system.

.... and you are complaining that the rear view mirror only comes in black?

If this new team has done half of what they were supposed to, AND added a new shader system, CClark Subs, Adaptive subdiv, modertools in Layout AND MORE, then they deserve a round of Moet at least, NOT a bag of stale donuts.

They have had to rewrite the whole bl**dy thing, and make sure it doesn't break too much in doing so. Probably, under tight time restaints.

I call that a thankless job.
And you just proved me right.

Dan goes and sulks in the corner now.

SaturnX
12-19-2005, 05:12 AM
this isnt whining.
item shape was simply moved to a different location within layout.
A relatively minor tweak for any development team...
Its a good tweak. But man, putting it into a 'lw9' feature preview video, is insulting.

It's been stated that features like this have been asked for in the past, but the likes of item shape has been in lw for at least 3 years already?
Its not a new feature. its just in a different place.

To lw users, anticipating lw9 with much excitment... seeing this in a video... is really wrong.

itemshape was moved to create a null edit option. that is all.
And its in a lw9 video as a feature preview.

what else small and tiny, will be hailed worthy enough of a video presentation for lw9?

honestly ?

anyway... gonna hush up. some of you i'm sure... will be glad to hear. :help:

Can't wait for next weeks videos ! !


:thumbsup:

blabberlicious
12-19-2005, 06:14 AM
There's always a nutter performing to the queue (line) for any major event.

:D

In Jin's case, I enjoy his occasional (and sadly less frequent) rants, many of which are extremely perceptive.

grabbing floawers and harp

'we are the world.....we are the people....'

DogBoy
12-19-2005, 06:29 AM
Hey, sorry for the name calling, but my dander was up :D . In all honesty I wasn't just talking about this one thread (though I didn't actually say that now I look at it) but I found that some of the replies on the [9] vid threads (here and on Spinquad as well) have been a bit, how can I put it, "is that all?".
Now, I don't expect everyone to be in awe of every li'l thing, but some people just can't be pleased. As has been pointed out this isn't a big new feature, but they are showing it so you know that it HAS been done. Also I think they are showing it to hint at some of the other stuff, like that button beside the current item drop-down. They are being playful.

It's just some folks are acting like NT haven't given them big enough presents this Xmas. C'mon, let's try and wait and see what we are REALLY gonna get.

As far as I was concerned [9] was about getting LW into a position that they could start to innovate. Therefore most of the work is going to be invisible. Let's face it most of the bugs that have crept in are because they've had to kludge somewhat to get things working on old code. They've put their hands in the air and said as much.

They want to clear the way and start afresh. So why are we beating them up for trying to do this.

I'm the first person to say that there are too many similar tools. So what can they do?
Remove some? People will complain.
Move them? People will complain.
In a lot of ways NT are in a lose/lose situation.

Why are we berating them because they are showing that they are making small changes as well as big?

DogBoy
12-19-2005, 06:32 AM
Sorry Blabberlicious, you're right. I'll shut up.

SaturnX
12-19-2005, 06:45 AM
...Also I think they are showing it to hint at some of the other stuff, like that button beside the current item drop-down. They are being playful.

When the avid beasts of lightwave fall prey to tickling...
BEWARE !

awrieger
12-19-2005, 07:36 AM
See! I never knew that. If Proton's LW9 video showing the Null's edit function right off the "creation" point then I wouldn't bother getting properties for each and every null...i mean, what for? its a null!

This actually raises another point about the benefits of improving workflows with what otherwise appear to be minor tweaks. It improves the learning curve by making it easier to use tool options that are otherwise ignored because they are buried deep inside an optional panel under a tab within another panel, where a lot of people may not even know they're there (the thrilling world of nulls are not the most dog-eared and read pages in the manual, I'm sure).

awrieger
12-19-2005, 07:53 AM
But man, putting it into a 'lw9' feature preview video, is insulting...
It's been stated that features...
Its not a new feature...
And its in a lw9 video as a feature preview.


There seems to be some misunderstanding in regards to referring to this as a 'feature' video. Try as I might, I can't see the word 'feature' used anywhere in Proton's post to describe this video:


LW9 Demo Video-Layout: Build Null Edit Options
Size: 13 MB
Length: 2 min

Right Click and Save Target to Download (ftp://ftp.newtek.com/pub/LightWave/LW9/BuildNull.mov)

I see the words 'demo' and 'null edit options' and that's exactly what it is - a demonstration of how the new null options works.

Chuck
12-19-2005, 07:59 AM
this isnt whining.
item shape was simply moved to a different location within layout.
A relatively minor tweak for any development team...
Its a good tweak. But man, putting it into a 'lw9' feature preview video, is insulting.

It's been stated that features like this have been asked for in the past, but the likes of item shape has been in lw for at least 3 years already?
Its not a new feature. its just in a different place.

To lw users, anticipating lw9 with much excitment... seeing this in a video... is really wrong.

itemshape was moved to create a null edit option. that is all.
And its in a lw9 video as a feature preview.

what else small and tiny, will be hailed worthy enough of a video presentation for lw9?

honestly ?

anyway... gonna hush up. some of you i'm sure... will be glad to hear. :help:

Can't wait for next weeks videos ! !


:thumbsup:


The video feature previews are going to cover a variety of topics and features for a variety of reasons, including among them simple improvements of workflow, which many do find to be a matter of concern. There will be in not one of the video previews any intent to insult anyone, just to inform the specific part of the user base for whom the change is of interest. Taking insult where none is intended over what others find useful and interesting, even if somewhat minor among the entire set of changes, is certainly your choice, though we'd certainly hoped that there would be a little more forbearance for one another's interests among the community of users.

(Please note that for my message "feature" is just used in the sense of "aspect of the program and its operation", not in the sense of "showcase" or "highlight.")

Chuck
12-19-2005, 08:39 AM
JNJCRE8: I will pass your concern along the management team and the development staff. I have moved your post from the Demo video thread to it's own thread because it was off topic for this thread.

richgrafx
12-19-2005, 08:43 AM
i think this feature demo would have been well received if it was shown last august, september, october

but it is now the highly anticipated end of the 4th quarter

timing is everything

toonafish
12-20-2005, 02:26 PM
.... and you are complaining that the rear view mirror only comes in black?.

To abuse the words of Christopher Walken in True Romance : "It's a matter of show and tell" , NT is telling us about new engines, but they are showing rear view mirrors that come in various colors :-)

Dirk
12-20-2005, 04:07 PM
Setting Null options before creating them. Ok. I like this feature. It's small, but it's nice.

Stooch
12-20-2005, 04:36 PM
LOL i didnt even know i could change nulls. I think its pretty useful and important to have it in my face. although i want to see something a bit more important then that.

if there is a list for node based shading preview, id like to sign up.