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AbnRanger
12-06-2005, 01:26 AM
I appreciate Newtek's recent promotion and the added value it offers to the 3D community...but it's got me thinking. As others have stated before, that can actually become a liability and give them a "Minor League" image as well as severely restrict their ability to attract further 3rd party developers (just 2 Worley plugins will cost you as much or more than LW itself). That would be great for LW as it is now, BUT...

In order for NT to offer a viable alternative to 3ds Max 8, Maya Unlimited, or XSI Advanced...isn't it about time they introduce a Premium version?... Something like Lightwave 3D XTreme including all the goodies such as Fprime, G2, Maestro, Shave N Haircut (I'm hoping they'll mend some fences w/ Joe) or full Sasquatch and if we're lucky, a capable Liquids solution...I'm guessing somewhere between $1500-$2495 would put them dangerously close (feature-wise) to the advanced versions of their competitors....yet STILL be the most affordable and the quickest cat of the bunch!

The advantages to having all of this available right out of the box, is that those who want such features can do so knowing the integrated plugins will cooperate fully with each other, they'd only have to fool with licensing ONCE, and they'd only have to seek support from ONE source... that being Newtek.
Consumers that don't need all those extras or who want to purchase plugins they want separately, can just stay with the base program as it is now. However, on the whole, they probably would save $$$ by having an integrated package as opposed to purchasing all the plugins separately.

Lightwave 3D XTreme :lwicon: ....hhhmm has a rather nice ring to it :D What say ye' Gentlemen/Ladies?

operation
12-06-2005, 02:01 AM
hi,
It's a good idea .... but ...

I don't think it's good for customers "in the futur":

Now it's a good idea, but if you start to sell plugins to bring power to LW , I am afraid that Lightwave will not be developed as it must be:
ie: Fprime vs Viper, Visual Texture - Darktree vs Lw shaders, Impact vs Lw dynamics, Syflex cloth ..

Lw will become more an interface for plugins....
Of course Nt dev team will do less work ... and that means you will have to buy plugins to add fonctions to LW.

Then the basic users will have less fonctions, and if you have money you will buy a "complete version" with more features ... aka Maya or XSI ...

Nt must sell a complete tool (full tools, cloth, dynamics, shader, etc... ). And if you are not satisfied .. you can buy external technology as plugins ..


then it's not a solution, hope you understand what I mean ... but why not a bundle at special price ( for a short period ie: LW + DF or LW+ vue or Lw+ Fprime+G2,etc..).

AbnRanger
12-06-2005, 02:41 AM
You could make that case for the other programs as well...it wouldn't be unique to Newtek only...

However, giving 3ds Max as an example...they've employed substantial new plugins into their core program with each of their last few versions....they bought the company that created Character Studio...and they have NOT abandoned it, leaving it undeveloped. They made some nice improvements to CS since their previous release.
Either way, Newtek can't afford to take any breaks, and would have to be firmly commited to further development across the board, in order to make it, and keep it, a 'well-oiled machine.'

Captain Obvious
12-06-2005, 04:00 AM
I think it's a Bad Idea™ to offer a "pro" package, when the only difference between the two is a bunch of third party plugins. If people want Fprime, let them buy Fprime. If the only reason for offering a "pro" package is so NewTek can point and say "See! Lightwave has all these cool features!" it doesn't sound like they have a particularly good reason, if you ask me.

Wonderpup
12-06-2005, 08:33 AM
One of the things that held me back from trying XSI foundation when it's price dropped was the fact that it was a 'lite' version- not in the sense that it was crippled or lacking in features, but because I knew it would never be the primary focus of development, it would always be the poor cousin, having to make do with hand-me-down features from it's more expensive relations.

I like the fact that lightwave is a single entity, and that as it is developed I can move forward with it without worrying if this or that feature will ever 'trickle down' into my version.

badllarma
12-06-2005, 10:11 AM
It's already been done you had Inspire and Lightwave and what happened to that :devil: It would just mean you have two teams working on each version or go the DFX stile of route when every time you get that odd job needing particles (for instance) you need to stump up a **** of a lot of money for the pleasure :thumbsdow

No if you want the bells and whistles buy the plugins other than that it's just down to newtek to deliver this stuff in the box as is. The 9 + development cycle looks good so far to me, although we all have yet to see the results of course.

Earl
12-06-2005, 10:45 AM
No offense, but I think "XTreme" is a little on the dorky side. ;D

But regardless of the name, I feel LightWave 3D is a completely package and should always strive to be a complete package. I don't think separating it into different "levels" the way the competition has done would benefit the community, nor would it make the package any more complete. Maybe offer a plugin bundle that is completely separate (such that you'd upgrade the plugins individually - not tied to the LW package), but that would be the responsibility of 3rd party devs. rather than NewTek.

Captain Obvious
12-06-2005, 11:23 AM
NewTek could add a plugpack, like Earl suggests. When you put that copy of Lightwave 9 in your shopping cart, you can also buy Fprime, Sasquatch, HD-Instance, etc, right from their store. That would be pretty much the same thing, except that NewTek doesn't tie themselves up with third parties, and the end consumer has more freedom in choosing which plugins he wants.

ackees
12-06-2005, 01:26 PM
I think it's a Bad Idea™ to offer a "pro" package, when the only difference between the two is a bunch of third party plugins. If people want Fprime, let them buy Fprime. If the only reason for offering a "pro" package is so NewTek can point and say "See! Lightwave has all these cool features!" it doesn't sound like they have a particularly good reason, if you ask me.
Agreed. Bad idea. When this happens the core software is held to ransom by plugins, plugin makers can sell to the highest bidder, switch leaving the app high and dry. The only answer is in a totally integrated and complete LW in one.

JamesCurtis
12-06-2005, 01:48 PM
The idea of having plugins available as an additional purchase from NT with LW to make an Extreme Package is not a very good idea. One reason I can think of is - how do you choose which plugins to be available? By allowing certain ones, you put up a barrier between the plugin developers themselves saying "what makes yours better than mine". Each plugin has it's own strengths.

hrgiger
12-06-2005, 01:56 PM
If you're talking about offering some cross promotion deals or bundles with Lightwave and some third party developers, hey, I'm all for it.

But Lightwave should remain one package and none of that stupid "complete" and "unlimited" version nonsense. Let Newtek (Reminder: smaller company then those other software packages you mention and hence fewer developers) focus on a single version of the software rather then trying to add an elitest version.

Captain Obvious
12-07-2005, 01:38 AM
Consider this, as well: Lightwave has only one shipping version and it costs less than $1000. It still comes with a very competent renderer and unlimited network render nodes.

BeeVee
12-07-2005, 02:08 AM
There is also the fact that most plug-in developers wouldn't want the addtional costs that come with distribution - middlemen getting in the way of them realising a fair price for their plug-ins.

B

Captain Obvious
12-07-2005, 02:31 AM
Yet another good point for not integrating third party plugins. :p

Shaneckel
12-07-2005, 02:50 AM
I think if they were to do anything, it would be more specific per user. IE:

~Charecter Animation
~Architecture
~Basic Design
~Special effects

Being a starving artist/student, It'd be nice to have a simple package to just render simple models in.That is if you worked for a team you could buy a simple package and pay for what youa need instead of all. if that makes sense...

2 cents

bluerider
12-07-2005, 04:31 AM
I appreciate Newtek's recent promotion and the added value it offers to the 3D community...but it's got me thinking. As others have stated before, that can actually become a liability and give them a "Minor League" image as well as severely restrict their ability to attract further 3rd party developers (just 2 Worley plugins will cost you as much or more than LW itself). That would be great for LW as it is now, BUT...

In order for NT to offer a viable alternative to 3ds Max 8, Maya Unlimited, or XSI Advanced...isn't it about time they introduce a Premium version?... Something like Lightwave 3D XTreme including all the goodies such as Fprime, G2, Maestro, Shave N Haircut (I'm hoping they'll mend some fences w/ Joe) or full Sasquatch and if we're lucky, a capable Liquids solution...I'm guessing somewhere between $1500-$2495 would put them dangerously close (feature-wise) to the advanced versions of their competitors....yet STILL be the most affordable and the quickest cat of the bunch!

The advantages to having all of this available right out of the box, is that those who want such features can do so knowing the integrated plugins will cooperate fully with each other, they'd only have to fool with licensing ONCE, and they'd only have to seek support from ONE source... that being Newtek.
Consumers that don't need all those extras or who want to purchase plugins they want separately, can just stay with the base program as it is now. However, on the whole, they probably would save $$$ by having an integrated package as opposed to purchasing all the plugins separately.

Lightwave 3D XTreme :lwicon: ....hhhmm has a rather nice ring to it :D What say ye' Gentlemen/Ladies?


Nice dream, its really nice to think these thoughts once in a while. Then reality comes to bite you in the ***, or lets say the company that aquires all the plugins :devil: ?

Lets suppose you've Sprinkled your pixie dust and waved your magic wand and your deed has been done, you've put Newtek in an odd position?

Think in terms of just one plugin that "Worley Labs" such as FPrime, yep its a seperate company right, sells for $399 :stumped: .

Now lets consider how many Licenses that have been sold? At least a few thousand...right. Lets multiply all those thousands of copies sold up and er....mmmmm a cool million dollars plus :santa: !!!!

Unfortunatly thats just one License sold by a company not part of NewTek. So if LightWave was to intergrate FPrime totally with their package, they would have to buy that License. Unfortunatly it would be unlikely they would pay just what the package has made interms of profits.

The cost of buying that would be rather alot, they would also be buying its code which would also be part of the package? Why would a third party developer hand over that when they are doing nicely already and have many other "irons" in the fire :hey: ?

That would be :screwy:

AbnRanger
12-07-2005, 11:17 AM
Nice dream, its really nice to think these thoughts once in a while.
Yeah...well...you got me there. :D Boy, do I feel stupid for hoping that, in some small measure, NT could follow suit, and do as ALL their Major Competitors have done. I forget sometimes that we are talking about LW. It's imperative that they maintain Status Quo, you know.


Then reality comes to bite you in the ***, or lets say the company that aquires all the plugins :devil: ?

Lets suppose you've Sprinkled your pixie dust and waved your magic wand and your deed has been done, you've put Newtek in an odd position?

Think in terms of just one plugin that "Worley Labs" such as FPrime, yep its a seperate company right, sells for $399 :stumped: .

Now lets consider how many Licenses that have been sold? At least a few thousand...right. Lets multiply all those thousands of copies sold up and er....mmmmm a cool million dollars plus :santa: !!!!

Unfortunatly thats just one License sold by a company not part of NewTek. So if LightWave was to intergrate FPrime totally with their package, they would have to buy that License. Unfortunatly it would be unlikely they would pay just what the package has made interms of profits.

The cost of buying that would be rather alot, they would also be buying its code which would also be part of the package? Why would a third party developer hand over that when they are doing nicely already and have many other "irons" in the fire :hey: ?

That would be :screwy
I understand what you are saying...so maybe someone can sprinkle Pixie Dust in order to convince ALL of LW's competitors to acknowledge the PERILS of augmenting their software by adding a few 3rd Party Plugins into their core program. Man, what was I thinking? :foreheads Pppffffftt!
And what was Autodesk, Alias, Softimage, and Maxon thinking?
I had better hurry and tell Autodesk that.... if they want to survive, they MUST come to their senses and immediately ditch Character Studio, Reactor, Particle Flow, Shave and Haircut and ClothFX...BEFORE IT'S TOO LATE! They MUST strip down to their bare-naked program, and let their customers buy the plugins separately.... Shame on them :twak: , and shame on me for thinking like them :bangwall: .

Back to reality now, and back to work.

Lightwolf
12-07-2005, 12:48 PM
Didn't Maxon just effectively ditch S&H? ;)

AbnRanger
12-07-2005, 12:53 PM
Didn't Maxon just effectively ditch S&H? ;)
If they did...that means the Pixie dust is working :D
Seriously, like 3ds Max 8...it appears to be Maxon's Hair "Based on Shave N Haircut"
http://www.maxon.net/pages/products/c4d/modules/hair/hair_e.html#

bluerider
12-07-2005, 04:37 PM
Yeah...well...you got me there. :D Boy, do I feel stupid for hoping that, in some small measure, NT could follow suit, and do as ALL their Major Competitors have done. I forget sometimes that we are talking about LW. It's imperative that they maintain Status Quo, you know.


I understand what you are saying...so maybe someone can sprinkle Pixie Dust in order to convince ALL of LW's competitors to acknowledge the PERILS of augmenting their software by adding a few 3rd Party Plugins into their core program. Man, what was I thinking? :foreheads Pppffffftt!
And what was Autodesk, Alias, Softimage, and Maxon thinking?
I had better hurry and tell Autodesk that.... if they want to survive, they MUST come to their senses and immediately ditch Character Studio, Reactor, Particle Flow, Shave and Haircut and ClothFX...BEFORE IT'S TOO LATE! They MUST strip down to their bare-naked program, and let their customers buy the plugins separately.... Shame on them :twak: , and shame on me for thinking like them :bangwall: .

Back to reality now, and back to work.


PMSL.......Excellent, I knew you would come to your senses. Its tough seeing the big picture sometimes.

Glad I could help :D

toma
12-08-2005, 03:01 AM
I think the key is integration… That a feature is developed in house or by third party doesn't maters if it is seamlessly plugged to the core app… the problem now is more a sdk issue : we need nearly one light rig for hair, one for HD instance, plus different object's version because some plugin support shader and other don't, then we have to do render pass or layer but lightwave doesn't support it very well and so on…

I just hope that LW 9 will be way more open than LW 8 is. I am no programmer but from what I understand, even NT has problem with its own code (LW wouldn't have those stability issue every time they had a feature if the code was cleaner and more plugin friendly)…

Of course I would love to see LightWave as a standalone App with everything needed, but I don't see a single app that is… So I hope that LW will become the platform of choice for many talented developers…

toma

Lightwolf
12-08-2005, 04:03 AM
Seriously, like 3ds Max 8...it appears to be Maxon's Hair "Based on Shave N Haircut"
http://www.maxon.net/pages/products/c4d/modules/hair/hair_e.html#
Ah, o.k., I didn't find a reference to S&H on the page at all so I assumed they did their own dev. I guess they just did the integration then (which looks great).

Cheers,
Mike

toma
12-08-2005, 04:22 AM
For me it looks like they developed HAIR from scratch…

http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?t=299816

AbnRanger
12-08-2005, 04:27 AM
Ah, o.k., I didn't find a reference to S&H on the page at all so I assumed they did their own dev. I guess they just did the integration then (which looks great).

Cheers,
Mike
The Hair/Fur system new to Max 8 is not "Shave N Haircut" persay, but it is essentially the 'nuts and bolts' of Joe Alter's S&H. From what I gathered in the article with Joe, they bought the right to use the technology from Joe, but Autodesk is porting and developing the system on it's own.
I'm sure that's how Maxon approached it too...cause the interface and tools are virtually identical to the one in Max 8. Watch the video demonstration for Max's Hair, and then the one for C4D.
http://usa.autodesk.com/adsk/servlet/item?siteID=123112&id=5903856
Here's the article link and a clip from it:
http://www.vfxblog.com/vfx/2005/11/joe_alter_on_sh.html
Are you continually tweaking the software? Do you get feedback from users?

There's a bit more baggage these days when you consider how many things Shave is actually in and on. The Maya version alone, I have to build for 3 versions back of Maya, on Windows, linux, and OS X. Then there's Max, Softimage and C4D. So when I make changes I have to consider how it will affect quite a few people.

The Max version, the Softimage version, and the C4D version are managed on the application side by Discreet, Avid/Softimage, and Maxon, respectively, so they have most of the user interaction – but I do moderate my Maya group (about 1700 users), and have quite a lot of contact with people off list.

archiea
12-08-2005, 02:09 PM
Let Newtek (Reminder: smaller company then those other software packages you mention and hence fewer developers) focus on a single version of the software rather then trying to add an elitest version.


...Its this mindset that is the biggest handicap of this community.. that higher end features at an appropriate prices is an "elitist" version. Its not. If there is a market for it, great. Why should folks who have invested in LW for years feel that their toolset should cater only to folks who don't mind being a few years behind. I'd pay extra for a more elegant solution to SSS, Occlusion, adv character anim, advanced fur, Instancing, etc and bullet proof dynamics. Folks who don't can be content with the "complete" version instead of the "unlimited"

Ask any maya "unlimited" user how they would feel if a complete version was only available because the community had deemed it "elitist" to have things like maya lice, fur, cloth and fluids and so forth. :thumbsdow

its like automobile companys just offering base vehicles. And I know whenever I say that I get folks here who chime up to say that all they need is a simple car to go from A to B. Thanks for proving my point!!! :thumbsup:

Auger
12-08-2005, 07:35 PM
Ask any maya "unlimited" user how they would feel if a complete version was only available because the community had deemed it "elitist" to have things like maya lice, fur, cloth and fluids and so forth. :thumbsdow

What the heck is Maya Lice? Is that their insect flocking plugin? :D

faulknermano
12-08-2005, 08:46 PM
What the heck is Maya Lice? Is that their insect flocking plugin? :D


considering he typed it so close to FUR! LOL! Maya Fur Lice!


btw: it's Maya Live. :D

faulknermano
12-08-2005, 08:58 PM
I understand what you are saying...so maybe someone can sprinkle Pixie Dust in order to convince ALL of LW's competitors to acknowledge the PERILS of augmenting their software by adding a few 3rd Party Plugins into their core program.

of course you do realise that there is more than just "a few" 3rd party add-ons. they're quite a number of them, albeit some tweaked from their pre-acquired version.


i do not think, given the state of competition AND development progress, that LW can even split LW into two versions. in my observation alone, there's not much incentive for people shopping for alternate 3D apps to get the *current full version* of LW, let alone a "hobbyist" version. LW's competitors are not only getting larger in numbers, but getting better.

EDIT: i do agree that it would be great to get FPrime, Sasquatch, etc once your LW boxes arrives (not having to place individual orders for them), and possibly even having been discounted if it werent otherwise. but how does one to choose which plugins to market with LW? they must be stable, in good working order, and NewTek itself must be answerable to problems in the plugin. by that alone - that is, support for the new features - NT is bound to have problems, because it's not their code. they could hire the developer. but i doubt they'll do that for every plugin they wish to market.

jeremyhardin
12-08-2005, 09:32 PM
agree with the masses here, but for different reasons.

Hypervoxels were originally a plugin for 5.6 (if i remember right. anyone else remember that?) Newtek integrated them.

And we've seen very little in terms of HV development. Plugin integration is potentially that plugins dead-end road. It will be toted as a feature for a while and lose it's development precedence. Not to mention that getting it playing nicely in the SDK is doubtful (again based on the HV's example. No way to alter HV's in Lscript, because it's still a plugin).

all speculation based on the past, but based on something at least.

RedBull
12-08-2005, 10:34 PM
i do not think, given the state of competition AND development progress, that LW can even split LW into two versions. in my observation alone, there's not much incentive for people shopping for alternate 3D apps to get the *current full version* of LW, let alone a "hobbyist" version. LW's competitors are not only getting larger in numbers, but getting better.

I agree mostly with that statement, and agree with what BlueRider said exactly. AbnRanger is correct also in that NT have painted themselves in the corner as being the cheapest 3D tool/toy software, and if it wasn't for it's heritage would be put in the poser basket of 3D tools... (Not that they aren't cool ones!)

Buy opening up the price to the masses, and increasing the userbase numbers,
you will be ignored by elitists, and people who start with LW, will want to UPgrade to Maya or XSI etc..

I do however think, LW does offer a lot really, in comparison to the competition, workflow, Modeler, unlimited render nodes, plugins, community, tutorials and support are really better than the competition, and that means a lot for freelancers. Single Node locked renderers, are a big one!
Max now has unlimited MR nodes, and XSI will follow......
And then LW really will have some problems.

I do wonder how many copies of Maya complete Vs Maya Unlimited Alias sell.
I also believe XSI Foundation, ESS would outsell Advanced.

Maxons approach of modules is a far better way to offer more and make more money, DFX+ modules also is a far better way of doing it.

Newtek should be hiring a bunch of programmers, (say 5 of them)
And make an offshoot company, that makes plugins and technology for Lightwave 3D. They should then sell plugins like Evasion3D or Worley quality through Newtek (or externall) as modules or plugin enhancements.
like Hypervoxels was originally. (But it needs to be affiliated or funded by NT)

Many major corporate companies will do this and use think tanks
and smaller tech companies to help the continued sales and progress of their other flagship products.

(I'm not sure if LW3D is still NT's flagship product)
There's most likely more money in hardware these days.

My 0.2..

Nitisara
12-09-2005, 12:26 AM
Personally I hope that NewTek will never go this way, and that LW will stay cheap and complete solution, with some 3rdparty plugs available directly from developers.

Why:
1) It is not easy to support all these 3rdparty plugs, and NT will have to do this if they will charge for them.
2) Rare user will need all these 3rdparty plugs as a must.
3) Nothing stops user from purchasing these plugs directly from developers.
4) Another, more powerful tools can appear on the market, making bundled tools obsolete, but already purchased ahead.
5) It is much better to declare price as $800 instead of $2500 (marketing is also important)
6) NT anyway will have not much gain (if any at all) from this XTreme bundle, so why they have to mess with this?

Nemoid
12-09-2005, 12:54 AM
Well, actually if you watch how apps like Maya and XSI are sold, you clearly see you get a cheap base version, then an advanced one with more tools and so on. fact is the other version are way pricey !!
if Maya complete is 2000$, Maya unlimited is way more, and the same happens with XSI.
Lets add to this the few rendernodes u can get : basically one with the base version , some more with the other.

Lw is cheaper, it has only one version, and has unlimited rendernodes. this is the great thing that makes it a good solution, especially for solo users, small studios.

However : i agree that some plugin could be bought and integrated in the app. maybe not F prime or G2, but Maestro could be something to consider.

i also agree with the sdk statement : its all in integration. third party developers are great , create fantastic tools. what they've to be allowed to create is plugins that integrate seamlessly with the app. :)

another thing that should happen is that, in the case of Nt buying third party solutions they should not buy only the code, but also the support of plugin authors, to keep on developing the tools, and integrating them more in the app.

Its a great thing that great developers like Ikeda were hired his tools were also added to the app. and what happened with bone tools ? they hired that team to develop them. and there are some upcoming lw 9.0 features that let us think to some third party plugins too : so you see, sometimes Nt does that.

The main thing it has to happen is seamless plugin integration through updated SDK.

This could be also a good thing for a new Lw core and structure. Lw could become mainly an interface of plugins which seamlessly integrate with the app, that could interact with each other seamlessly too. tools will simply be plugins as it happens to be with free plugins and commercial ones : no difference. and Lw will simply make them work all together.

toma
12-09-2005, 03:01 AM
reminder :

Lightwave (with Printed Manual) = 895 $
Fprime = 399 $
G2 = 399 $
Sasquatch = 499 $
HD Instance = 149 $

total = 2341 $

This is what someone will have to spend for a capable Lightwave seat and it is cheap compared to any other software.

Is it good or is it bad… I don't know… I just hope that NT understand that many of its customers are willing to pay more to help LW development to be faster and better…

Statement like "NT is a little company" are valid, but what if we find that NT just doesn't want to be a bigger one ?

The frightening thing is that a newcomer to 3D will just go Maya or Max or even XSI because they look more power full, more professional, and because they are advertised everywhere… and are just a few hundred $ more expensive (but this is not relevant as those newbies will download a cracked version anyway)

toma

colkai
12-09-2005, 03:52 AM
Why should folks who have invested in LW for years feel that their toolset should cater only to folks who don't mind being a few years behind. I'd pay extra for a more elegant solution to SSS, Occlusion,
Guy, if I recall, you've made the same complaints over and over in many (deleted) threads and as people point out. What YOU personally see as high-end and must-have is not neccesarily what the rest of the people (including many top studios) would see as must have.

I see rocks ahead...

Nemoid
12-09-2005, 04:19 AM
reminder :

Statement like "NT is a little company" are valid, but what if we find that NT just doesn't want to be a bigger one ?

The frightening thing is that a newcomer to 3D will just go Maya or Max or even XSI because they look more power full, more professional, and because they are advertised everywhere… and are just a few hundred $ more expensive (but this is not relevant as those newbies will download a cracked version anyway)

toma

This is unfortunately true. the reasons are :

1) Lw got behind those packages, in time, just because of a not so clever developing from 6.0 since 7.5 Not so clever doesn't mean they didn't develop the app. It means that the direction taken was not that clever, because even if the tools added were in some case very good, the app didn't become more modern, while Maya, Max, XSI all were modern, at least due to their nodal structure. Rendering in Lw also became a bit old, compared to new engines like Mray, Vray. Kray.

2) Lw was never advertised for a long time as an high end film production package, differently from the above packages, this despite being a good one, and despite being a leader in TV productions. Actually this is like that still now. but at least we see cool banners here and there : on CGtalk and other forums. this is a good move.

3) Most companies seeking for artists look for Maya artists. then comes the time for Max, XSI and Lw artists. despite in the market there are wonderful artists using Lw in production and cool studios like Zoic or the Mill or partially Computer Cafe and others using Lw at an outstanding level, :) considering the whole market Maya is a leader so far. So, clearly, when you search for a job, at an equal skill level you find it easier if you're a Maya artist.

4) The market Newtek aimed for was mainly the TV production market. Lw, due to its characteristsics, is a leader in that field for sure. And Newtek products are well suited for TV studios, small studios delivering footage and therefone no matter what they use, and solo artists.

But fact is : if you get into a big budget film feature production is more common you're asked for Maya or XSI skills, with preference for Maya.


The way to improve this situation is to make become Lw more modern : develop its potential. The new team understood this, and is making this work on a step by step basis, and what i hope is they enhance Lw greatly. the direction taken seems to be good this time.

From that work, TV production will have great advantages: Lw will maintain its position. This is the first goal even because there are apps which aim to that market too, C4D, XSI with foundation or essential...

Another consequence could be film feature production could consider Lw as a solution to adopt, again.
The latest is not so easy : look at XSI , trying, release from release to overcome Maya in this field, recover the old Softimage positio as the leader, and yet being however behind it, despite XSI software being better than Maya, at least in ease of use. Just because unfortunately big productions don't change pipelines so easily.

hrgiger
12-09-2005, 07:42 AM
...Its this mindset that is the biggest handicap of this community.. that higher end features at an appropriate prices is an "elitist" version. Its not. If there is a market for it, great. Why should folks who have invested in LW for years feel that their toolset should cater only to folks who don't mind being a few years behind. I'd pay extra for a more elegant solution to SSS, Occlusion, adv character anim, advanced fur, Instancing, etc and bullet proof dynamics. Folks who don't can be content with the "complete" version instead of the "unlimited"

Ask any maya "unlimited" user how they would feel if a complete version was only available because the community had deemed it "elitist" to have things like maya lice, fur, cloth and fluids and so forth. :thumbsdow

its like automobile companys just offering base vehicles. And I know whenever I say that I get folks here who chime up to say that all they need is a simple car to go from A to B. Thanks for proving my point!!! :thumbsup:

Eventually, you'll realize that if and when these features are implemented into Lightwave, they'll do so at the current price, not by splitting up Lightwave into different versions. Newtek has always tried to provide a proffesional package that is both powerful and affordable. You say you've been using Lightwave for years, and yet you still miss this point. Pay more attention in class little guy.
Once again, you insult the developers of Lightwave by suggesting that the software they make is only appreciated by those "folks who don't mind being a few years behind." Most of the development team is new to Lightwave and have spent the entire 8.x cycle re-writing the core of the application so that it will be easier to add new and innovative features in the future instead of piling new code on top of a outdated core. Sure it has slowed development, but considering they have had to clean up the mess that was made when the original developers bailed, and as has been stated by Jay Roth, it is a much better approach then going "dark" for a few years while they rebuilt the core of the application.
As far as your comments on Maya, I never stated that having features like
maya lice(I'm glad we dont' have lice frankly), fur, cloth and fluids was elitest. It is merely my contention that breaking up the software into two seperate versions so you can charge abhorent amounts of money to sell the same software with a few added features is elitest. I'm all for software bundles and I would be for a package that includes Lightwave with some Worley plugs or Lightwave and Realflow or something of that nature. But at least I knew the value of those plug-ins before they were added into a bundle so that I could actually see I'm saving money.

hrgiger
12-09-2005, 07:46 AM
reminder :

Lightwave (with Printed Manual) = 895 $
Fprime = 399 $
G2 = 399 $
Sasquatch = 499 $
HD Instance = 149 $

total = 2341 $



Yeah, don't forget to add in Real-Flow for fluids and syflex for cloth and you're still running at under the $6,999 price tag of Maya Unlimited. $1258 under to be exact not counting taxes for either one.

Nitisara
12-09-2005, 08:31 AM
Fprime = 399 $
G2 = 399 $
Sasquatch = 499 $
HD Instance = 149 $

I would only add XDof to LightWave instead of Digital Confusion.

Emmanuel
12-09-2005, 12:13 PM
I am more for an integrated solution anytime vs a third party plugin.
One of the reasons is this:

http://www.joealter.com/newSite/c4d.htm

Its never good to depending from a third party for development.
Maxon's experiences were not that good after all, that's why they did their own thing.
At the end, if its worth it, it gets integrated anyway (MotionMixer, Nodal etc...).

RedBull
12-09-2005, 01:14 PM
Thanks for the link Emmanuel
Wow, that makes LW and C4D enemies of Joe.... :)

I think Maxon have the right idea....
They are doing as i said and having offshoot companies and developers
contracted to make plugins for C4D....
And then selling them as plugin modules from Maxon.

This way it does not interfere with the core development of the main application and development and funding are contained seperately.

Meaning C4D is not losing features in the core, but adding external options
like Hair as a module addon....

The only problem in this case is they seemed to of ripped Joe off in the process. Which is a bit of a surprise..... Because it does seem like it's very much based on Joe's tools. That aside this is the best way to offer more,
make more money, but still keep your base model software cheap.
But the development needs to be funded from NT initially.

faulknermano
12-09-2005, 11:17 PM
agree with the masses here, but for different reasons.

Hypervoxels were originally a plugin for 5.6 (if i remember right. anyone else remember that?) Newtek integrated them.

and the reason for that good integration, unless i am mistaken, is that HV is a NewTek invention - that is, it is their code. it would be easier to integrate them because they can plan the whole LW development to accomodate that.

jeremyhardin
12-10-2005, 09:18 AM
and the reason for that good integration, unless i am mistaken, is that HV is a NewTek invention - that is, it is their code. it would be easier to integrate them because they can plan the whole LW development to accomodate that.
wow, and they still made those mistakes (leaving it closed to the sdk and little/no development). hmm.

archiea
12-10-2005, 04:17 PM
Eventually, you'll realize that if and when these features are implemented into Lightwave, they'll do so at the current price, not by splitting up Lightwave into different versions.


Sure...but when?

Take hypervoxels for example... would you prefer to get it as an addition to LW 5.6 or wait and wait and wait until they were included in LW 6. EXACTLY my example right there. Some of us would pay extra to get it right now.





Newtek has always tried to provide a proffesional package that is both powerful and affordable. You say you've been using Lightwave for years, and yet you still miss this point. Pay more attention in class little guy.


Yeah yeah yeah.. What is your point? Not having SSS, occlusion, advanced fur and robust dynamics ISN'T professional. Having legacy plugins-turned-features wane in development isn;t professional. Sure LW 9.0 is a great step in the right direction, and I'm happy to see it, but man do we have a road ahead. I'm sure NT is up to the task....

And yes, being w/ LW since 1.0 has show me also how the market has changed.. from where being a modest but acceesable 3D program isn't enough. You have to compete with the pros that have themselves become modest at least in the pricing arena.




Once again, you insult the developers of Lightwave by suggesting that the software they make is only appreciated by those "folks who don't mind being a few years behind."


No, the develpers can only work with whatever resources they have.. with whatever resources a $795 ap with free x.5 updates can offer them in resources.. i.e. is there a mac intel in there right now ready to flip LW over to macintel as soon as the machines hit the street? is it insulting to the developers to point out the truth regarding LW antiquated OpenGL. Sure, folks like you and I understand the gory details regarding this lapse of development... but the market doesn't care. They jsut want the best now.




Most of the development team is new to Lightwave and have spent the entire 8.x cycle re-writing the core of the application so that it will be easier to add new and innovative features in the future instead of piling new code on top of a outdated core. Sure it has slowed development, but considering they have had to clean up the mess that was made when the original developers bailed, and as has been stated by Jay Roth, it is a much better approach then going "dark" for a few years while they rebuilt the core of the application.


Like I said, you and I know these details.. do you think the marketplace cares? Do you think the car industry cares if GM is having problems? No. Folks will buy from other brands.




As far as your comments on Maya, I never stated that having features like
maya lice(I'm glad we dont' have lice frankly), fur, cloth and fluids was elitest. It is merely my contention that breaking up the software into two seperate versions so you can charge abhorent amounts of money to sell the same software with a few added features is elitest.


Dude, make up your mind: you just said that having advanced features isn't elitist, just charging for them is? be realistic.. development cost money. Was paying $295 (I think) for Hypervoxels in 1998 elitist? Would you feel less of an elitist if you and everyone were allowed to wait until late 2000 for it in LW6?

See how the level of conversation and debate just becomes julvenile in this community?






I'm all for software bundles and I would be for a package that includes Lightwave with some Worley plugs or Lightwave and Realflow or something of that nature. But at least I knew the value of those plug-ins before they were added into a bundle so that I could actually see I'm saving money.

Sorry. I'd rather Newtek develop those advanced features that they plan 2 years down the road now. and offer them to folks here who can afford to pay for them now, and allow folks who don't to get them in the next revision.

Ask anyone who used Adobe camera raw before it was included in Photoshop. It allowed folks to work with RAW photographs in PS without having to wait for the next update cycle. How can anyone debate the advantages of getting advancd features now. Getting 3D tracking, advanced character animation, instancing, advanced shaders NOW in an integrated form, not hacked together from the efforts from the community, but proffesionaly integrated. Now THATS a professional app.

WizCraker
12-11-2005, 02:57 AM
I think if they were to do anything, it would be more specific per user. IE:

~Charecter Animation
~Architecture
~Basic Design
~Special effects

Being a starving artist/student, It'd be nice to have a simple package to just render simple models in.That is if you worked for a team you could buy a simple package and pay for what youa need instead of all. if that makes sense...

2 cents


For the cost of a math textbook [I had a Calculus book cost $210] you can get Lightwave 3D as a student that is not limited in use [minus commercial work] or limited on a yearly license. Plus you can upgrade it to commercial license within 6 months after purchasing it as a student [but if price is the issue keep the student license until you get good enought to get a real job].

WizCraker
12-11-2005, 03:30 AM
Yeah, don't forget to add in Real-Flow for fluids and syflex for cloth and you're still running at under the $6,999 price tag of Maya Unlimited. $1258 under to be exact not counting taxes for either one.

Syflex Cloth is not supported or even begun development for Lightwave as a plugin. Saying that Syflex Cloth is even an option for Lightwave owners would be false claims. In an email recently from Syflex they said they are investigating the possiblity of a Lightwave plugin for future developments but at the current time they do not see a market available for useing resources to pursue a Lightwave port.

If you want Syflex cheapest route would be Softimage 5.0 Advanced as you get the Syflex v.3.0 Advanced Cloth, XSI Hair and Fur, Behavior Crowd Animation System (http://www.softimage.com/Products/Behavior/v2/default.asp), Ageia™ physX™ physics simulation engine, mental ray v.3.4, and GATOR.

Haveing Syflex and their Behavior sysem alone is worth the $7000 price tag.

Eventually Lightwave will become just as or more featured based and powerful, will the price stay low, probably not. When that time does come, we will all have a better Lightwave.

WizCraker
12-11-2005, 04:08 AM
wow, and they still made those mistakes (leaving it closed to the sdk and little/no development). hmm.

You have to remember that when HV's were first introduced, the 3D division was being headed by an aggressive visionaire, that instead of intoducing features that were solid and integrated with the core of Lightwave, easly accessible from the SDK, they were designed as a plugin then dropped from the development cycle to have another feature developed.

The updates would fix bugs, but mostly would have 50+ new features that were undocumented and buggy added as well. These new features that were developed and then dropped added stability issues. The new development team needed a little time to get a hand on the code to be able to clean it up for the last update for the Lightwave [8] series which is 8.5.

My speculation is that Lightwave v9 series, will be a transition from old legacy Lightwave to a new cleaner more modular Core. This will allow easy integration of new features and also allow the third party developers greater freedom to access the Core features through the improved SDK. When we do see the next version iterations after the 9 series Lightwave we be close to the top again for its powerfulness right out of the box.

With NewTek's addition of Jay Roth as the President of the 3D Division Lightwave will be quickly reintroduced as the must have 3D application and will be the best deal in 3D. Jay Roth has a proven track record of introducing solid new industry setting milestones in 3D technology, and with his vast experience in visual effects NewTek has the right guy for the job.

Update: To those that say "Lightwave isn't a professional app because it doesn't include X Feature NOW."

As I said above Lightwave was being developed under a team and Lead that were in the mentality of just that. If Lightwave didn't have X Feature right this second it will not be as professional as the competion. And so we got a Lightwave that had new features of that of the competion, but they were broken and slow to be fixed.

Again my specualtion is Lightwave v9 will have far more integreted and stable features that other 3D applications have that are not listed on the current feature list on the NewTek Lightwave website.

For those that are judgeing Lightwave's professionalism by not currently haveing X Feature, then you might as well just jump ship now, and save the rest of us from your continued arrogant definition of your version of what makes a professional application or not.

MikeMD
12-11-2005, 02:15 PM
One of the things that held me back from trying XSI foundation when it's price dropped was the fact that it was a 'lite' version- not in the sense that it was crippled or lacking in features, but because I knew it would never be the primary focus of development, it would always be the poor cousin, having to make do with hand-me-down features from it's more expensive relations.

That doesn't describe foundation at all.

If you do not need realistic hair, foundation is a $500 app. every bit as good or better ( character rigs and animation ) than much more expensive Max, Maya or Lightwave. Nothing lite about it.

They simply develop one version, then remove a few features from essentials or foundation. A lot of those features are not necessary for 90% of 3D work, and there are other ways to compensate.

I don't know whether something like that would make any sense for NewTek, new pricing seems OK for what you get. Maya and Max on the other hand are seriously overpriced and in a lot of areas far weaker than XSI Foundation or Lightwave.

Wonderpup
12-11-2005, 03:00 PM
Hi MikeMD,

I wasn't intending to criticise XSI foundation here- it is a fantastic deal in many ways, and I was very tempted when it first appeared. When you say that the features that are absent from it are not necessary for 90% of 3D work you're right- but my problem is that I have no way of knowing in advance what that 10% feature cut will be, or how that 10% cut may impact on me.

To take your hair example for instance- at the moment I have no need for realistic hair- but if a job came up that needed it, I could add it to lightwave for a lot less than it would cost me to upgrade to Avanced. So although the missing 10% may not seem a problem, it's not hard to imagine scenarios where it could become one. In this example, were I using foundation I would be left high and dry with no way out. (Unless the job had a real big budget that I could drown the upgrade cost in.)

AbnRanger
12-11-2005, 07:48 PM
That doesn't describe foundation at all.

If you do not need realistic hair, foundation is a $500 app. every bit as good or better ( character rigs and animation ) than much more expensive Max, Maya or Lightwave. Nothing lite about it....

I don't know whether something like that would make any sense for NewTek, new pricing seems OK for what you get. Maya and Max on the other hand are seriously overpriced and in a lot of areas far weaker than XSI Foundation or Lightwave.

Pardon me Mike...but don't go dumping on Max. There's no way in Hades :devil: that the $500 Foundation is AS GOOD OR BETTER than Max! Step away from the glue, man. :D

Qslugs
12-12-2005, 12:14 PM
Aside from missing some plugs, what really is differnet than the 6k version of XSI? Nothing. I agree with MikeMD. I have been in 3d for 10 years now. And while I purchased shave and a haircut when it came out for LW, I have yet to have a need for hair. However, that isthe only huge problem with buying the 500 dollar version of XSI. It's a steep upgrade.

AbnRanger, have you actually used xsi foundation on production? Id say its a quite capiable package. Im contemplating buying a copy for home. Ive used all about all of the big packages sans houdini. This month alone, Im doing 3 different jobs using 3 different packages. LW, Max and Maya.

Wonderpup
12-12-2005, 01:25 PM
The problem with the 'modular' approach, especialy when the price gap between the lower and the higher versions is so huge is the fact that the newest technology will always be reserved for the higher- to make it more attractive.

So if we suppose an amazing new 3D technology came along, call it ANT, we can be fairly confident that sooner or later ANT will either show up in Lightwave itself, or become available as an affordable plug in.

But, if you are a foundation user, you will see ANT implemented in Advanced, certainly, but will it ever become available in foundation? Admittedly this may change if the number of foundation users stimulates the plug in market for XSI, but is it really in Avid's interest to allow their foundation users to gain access to features that are the only selling point for their more expensive versions?

The only reason foundation is being sold for the price it now is, is to increase market share, and to entice users to migrate to higher priced versions. And if Avid decide that foundation has done it's job, they will probably kill it.

archiea
12-13-2005, 01:30 AM
Guy, if I recall, you've made the same complaints over and over in many (deleted) threads and as people point out. What YOU personally see as high-end and must-have is not neccesarily what the rest of the people (including many top studios) would see as must have.

I see rocks ahead...


Like I said.. same with maya complete and limited.... some PERSONALY don't see advanced fur, hair, fluids, cloth, etc fitting their needs.. fine.. then Maya complete is for them instead of Maya unlimited.

I mean, should we not have Worley G2 available because many here don't need it?

Should NT nothave made hypervoxels available to the community here because
many here personally didn't see it as necessary?

:screwy:

Yes, again I bring this up, and again folks here take it as a knock that I want and am willing to pay for higher end features should NT make them available NOW as a separate item. While the same time make the current LW available to folks who want a solid well rounded ap but not necessarily so cutting edge and hence the price tag associated with a rapid development pace needed for cutting edge.

I'll coment again that I just don't understand why the community here take such personal offense tha there may be some that may want either a more rapid development of LW and/or higher end features.. either of which available as a separate or higher priced option. Its not a knock on folks who are content with a more basic packages.. I mean, heck, look at after effects with is standard or professional packaging.. Look at Adobe's creative suite with its CS standard and CS Premium.. I mean there are so many examples of this scaled product options that offers customers scaleable product to meet their needs.

Perhaps folks here think that I am suggesting that LW segmented in its current iteration.. like strip out the current high end features and do like what we had before.. Inspire and LW.. No I'm not. its quite the opposite... I say keep LW 9 as it.. the $795 app that folks are bound to love. However, hire additonal folks to work on more specialized high end features like 3D tracking integration, advanced shaders, advanced fur and hair, perhaps even a deal with pixar for renderman shader importation, i.e. renderman for maya solution, etc. This may be out of the interest of folks in the community here.. great.. don't by LW extreme or advanced or whatever. Work within your budget with LW at $795.

Again, the understanding is to push up stuff in LW that may not be release for a couple of years, and release it NOW for folks who will pay for the extra development . Perhaps Nt just needs 1 or 2 more version to get things back on track for LW and then they can concentrate on being a bit more cutting edge. Ver 9 makes it clear that NT is being aggressive on playing catch up and addressing legacy issue. Bravo. So again, this idea tossed around of suggesting a LW xtremes isn't a knock, but just a desire to do more w/ LW out of the box.

But I will say again that it is a bit disheartening to hear the current community be so antagonsitic toward the desire of some here to do more with LW. It apears that many here aren't just happy with the status quo, but also discourage any thinking or wishing that LW, at least in some part, grow a little bit faster, even if its available at a separate cost. I just don't understand that truncated kind of thinking: like "screw the elitist After effects professional users, we are happy with after effects standard. Who needs 16 bit support, network rendering, particle systems advanced keying, warping and vfx tools and filters, motion tracking and stabilization. The standard package is all we need"

if you can validate that kind of thinking, by all means please do. And if its worth deleting posts regarding the desiring of higher end features, then perhaps I'm just posting in the wrong community. :argue:

archiea
12-13-2005, 02:03 AM
You have to remember that when HV's were first introduced, the 3D division was being headed by an aggressive visionaire, that instead of intoducing features that were solid and integrated with the core of Lightwave, easly accessible from the SDK, they were designed as a plugin then dropped from the development cycle to have another feature developed.

The updates would fix bugs, but mostly would have 50+ new features that were undocumented and buggy added as well. These new features that were developed and then dropped added stability issues. The new development team needed a little time to get a hand on the code to be able to clean it up for the last update for the Lightwave [8] series which is 8.5.

My speculation is that Lightwave v9 series, will be a transition from old legacy Lightwave to a new cleaner more modular Core. This will allow easy integration of new features and also allow the third party developers greater freedom to access the Core features through the improved SDK. When we do see the next version iterations after the 9 series Lightwave we be close to the top again for its powerfulness right out of the box.

With NewTek's addition of Jay Roth as the President of the 3D Division Lightwave will be quickly reintroduced as the must have 3D application and will be the best deal in 3D. Jay Roth has a proven track record of introducing solid new industry setting milestones in 3D technology, and with his vast experience in visual effects NewTek has the right guy for the job.


I agree with your assessment, assuming that none of us have the inside scoop and its just an assessmant. However it is a "guessitmate" that seems realistic with what has been hinted to us by NT's numerous press releases...



Update: To those that say "Lightwave isn't a professional app because it doesn't include X Feature NOW."

As I said above Lightwave was being developed under a team and Lead that were in the mentality of just that. If Lightwave didn't have X Feature right this second it will not be as professional as the competion. And so we got a Lightwave that had new features of that of the competion, but they were broken and slow to be fixed.

Again my specualtion is Lightwave v9 will have far more integreted and stable features that other 3D applications have that are not listed on the current feature list on the NewTek Lightwave website.

For those that are judgeing Lightwave's professionalism by not currently haveing X Feature, then you might as well just jump ship now, and save the rest of us from your continued arrogant definition of your version of what makes a professional application or not.

OK, this is where you lost me. How is it that desiring more polish and more advanced features now in LW arrogant? Should the maya complete users think that the maya unlimited users are arrogant because.. well.. maya complete is called complete and its not unlimited? Should the After Effects Standard users think that the After Effects professional users are arrogant because they want tracking & stabiilzation, 16 bit support, particle system, etc? Why should LW be any different.

I will say again, i just don;t understand the mindset of some in this community that would wish to truncate another member's desire to have amore cutting edge toolset in LW, considering what some had already invested in LW over the years. Howfolks like myself should "jump ship" if we are not content with the current state of LW and "save the rest of us" any opinion of where LW should be. Perhaps we should close the feature request forum, considering this mindset. Ijust don't understand this snese of 'threat' or offense that is taken by some here that, gee, maybe someone may like to do some motion tracking within LW, or be able to use SSS or occlusion right out of the box. Imean heck, why have NT even make the effort with dynamics they way they did w/ ver 8 when you already had MD and Impact. I mean forget the itnegration that LW did by enabling the forces to affect both hard and soft dynamics, or even the level of control that NT now offers with dynamics.. I mean why charge folks here for version 8 if they didn't need dynamics, and the folks who did could just get Impact and/or MD.

Like I said..if you can validate my example above... please do so. Or to even go a step forward, who here would have taken the 7.5 update for free as a standard compared to folks who would have purchased a 7.5 advanced update if it were available as an option, if the dynamics in 8 were available at the time of the 7.5 release... as an advanced version... So in other words, paying for an x.5 release would have enabled you to get ver 8 dynamics a full year earlier (i think it was year, I might be wrong, but speaking hypethetically)

i think its a valid question as it demonstrates what I think was the original intent of this thread: to have an xtreme or advanced LW.. but now.. not later... for those who would pay for the extra development.

archiea
12-13-2005, 02:07 AM
That doesn't describe foundation at all.

If you do not need realistic hair, foundation is a $500 app. every bit as good or better ( character rigs and animation ) than much more expensive Max, Maya or Lightwave. Nothing lite about it.

They simply develop one version, then remove a few features from essentials or foundation. A lot of those features are not necessary for 90% of 3D work, and there are other ways to compensate.

I don't know whether something like that would make any sense for NewTek, new pricing seems OK for what you get. Maya and Max on the other hand are seriously overpriced and in a lot of areas far weaker than XSI Foundation or Lightwave.

This is also a valid assessment... LW does offer more out of the box functionality compared to many "lite" editions. However, for folks who ware in that 10% and want more now... well some other apps offer that extra 10%... and consider that the 10% is not necessarily in proportion to the other 90% :D

archiea
12-13-2005, 02:16 AM
The problem with the 'modular' approach, especialy when the price gap between the lower and the higher versions is so huge is the fact that the newest technology will always be reserved for the higher- to make it more attractive.


I agree that the gap between many of these "lite" and "pro" editions can be large.. but its more than jsut extra features..its also the integration of these features...




So if we suppose an amazing new 3D technology came along, call it ANT, we can be fairly confident that sooner or later ANT will either show up in Lightwave itself, or become available as an affordable plug in.

But, if you are a foundation user, you will see ANT implemented in Advanced, certainly, but will it ever become available in foundation? Admittedly this may change if the number of foundation users stimulates the plug in market for XSI, but is it really in Avid's interest to allow their foundation users to gain access to features that are the only selling point for their more expensive versions?


good point... as in these companies making it clear that light is light...period.

However, what I and some were proposing is different: that features that are out NOW in LW advanced will be included in LW standard in the next version or version and a half... Its like how plug ins have been for LW.. Youhad water, hard bod dynamics, soft body dynamics, particle systems available for LW users who wanted them NOW.... then eventually they got integrated into LW or built into LW over the years... so the point being that folks who needed it now could by the plug ins, while folks who didn't are spared the expense, yet they benefit later as the features become integrated...

this would never happen with Maya or Foundation.. at least not at the speed that LW has integrated these plug ins or featues.



The only reason foundation is being sold for the price it now is, is to increase market share, and to entice users to migrate to higher priced versions. And if Avid decide that foundation has done it's job, they will probably kill it.

Very true... but LW's situation is quite the opposite... its has a respectable market share... but now lets kick up itss abilities up a notch... and fast!

hrgiger
12-13-2005, 01:48 PM
Yes, again I bring this up, and again folks here take it as a knock that I want and am willing to pay for higher end features should NT make them available NOW as a separate item. While the same time make the current LW available to folks who want a solid well rounded ap but not necessarily so cutting edge and hence the price tag associated with a rapid development pace needed for cutting edge.



It's not about taking it as a "knock". It's about the fact that you're missing the whole point of Newtek and Lightwave. Newtek is trying to make a package that is both powerful and yet still affordable. Not a package that is powerful for those "who wish to pay for it". Here's a recent quote from Jay Roth: "We also lowered the MSRP of LightWave from $1595 to $795, taking LightWave back to it roots as the most powerful and affordable professional 3D application on the market." Back to it's roots. That means that Lightwave has always been about getting the software into the hands of anyone who wants to get into 3D graphics but at the same time, having managed to make a (proven) production quality tool and I don't think I need to link to the projects page to show where it has been used. And it seems like that is still their goal today. They wish to add as many high end features as possible to the toolkit and the whole 8.x cycle was spent re-structuring Lightwave so as to allow it for expandability in the future. And they've managed to lower the price in the meantime. Obviously, they're doing something right because they've also hired a lot of new developers in the process.
All you see (or think you see) is that Newtek by lowering their price has reduced their resources to bring high end features to LW. It's kind of a moot argument since neither of us has access to Newtek's financial statments. But it's a simple case of supply and demand to know that when the price goes down, the intent is to sell more product as well as to gain a competitive edge via market share, especially in an industry that is so competitive as all the products are fairly similar in function (to make stills, animation, etc...) and sometimes price then becomes a large factor in determining which product best suits the consumers needs.
You seem to really like the idea of paying more for additional features. There are plenty of other package that will suit your needs and take that extra money off your hands, no questions asked. It would be a lot quicker then trolling around these forums constantly pushing for Newtek to change their company credo by breaking up Lightwave into affordable and expensive software packages.

Wonderpup
12-13-2005, 02:55 PM
Hi archiea,

I can see what you're getting at here, a sort of 'fast track' development, funded by those who can afford it that would in the long run benifit everyone.

And in theory this is a good idea-everybody wins.

But in practice, I fear, it would be different. What you would end up with is two classes of user, which would lead to a tribal split in the user base, a lot of resentment and no matter how it's packaged the users of the 'lower' version would always feel they were being negleted in favour of their fast track 'superiors'.

Emmanuel
12-13-2005, 03:36 PM
I think this can work for an app that's higher priced.
But going up from LW's price for an Extreme Version won't go.
First, because I cant see how Nt would assemble the necessary ressources (given NT's catch up track record), second because I don't think that its reasonable to think NT could hack this together in 6 month (given NTs catch up track record).
IIRC, stuff like HVs was done by one person (gregory D.), so I think that similiar tools can and will be done within NT's capabilities, while other stuff would require shelling out large money for licenses (Aegeia, Syflex, Fluids etc) plus more ressources to integrate those things into LW.
Na, I don't think thats a good idea, given LW current architecture, its hard enough to get ONE stable version with the new features added.
Its not like XSI's rigid bodies, cloth and hair was done by SoftImage, they need to ask that much money cause they need to pay the licenses for those originally third party tools PLUS the integratin of these tools.
Its not like "lets buy Syflex", its like "letsbuy the license to the code and try to integrate it into our 3D app" which is far from easy.

toma
12-15-2005, 10:43 PM
many good points on both sides…this is LighWave parliament here :)

Fascinating how this community behave, think, discuss… everyone trying to make LightWave better and stronger, I don't know if all the companies can enjoy such a helpful customer base !

anyway in a few weeks we will all enjoy a LW "extreme" with [9] ;)

toma

MikeMD
12-16-2005, 08:22 PM
There's no way in Hades that the $500 Foundation is AS GOOD OR BETTER than Max

A more accurate statement would be:

There is not enough time to explain all of the ways in which a $500 XSI Foundation is better than Max. :thumbsup:

It's ridiculously overpriced. You can have Lightwave and XSI, both, for much less than price of Max, and each one of those is better than Max.

Chris S. (Fez)
12-16-2005, 09:15 PM
I use Max most days and personally think it is pretty sweet.

archiea
12-17-2005, 03:24 PM
Hi archiea,

I can see what you're getting at here, a sort of 'fast track' development, funded by those who can afford it that would in the long run benifit everyone.

And in theory this is a good idea-everybody wins.

But in practice, I fear, it would be different. What you would end up with is two classes of user, which would lead to a tribal split in the user base, a lot of resentment and no matter how it's packaged the users of the 'lower' version would always feel they were being negleted in favour of their fast track 'superiors'.

seriously, though, do you think that maya complete users have a "tribal split" from the maya unlimited users?

Do users of Worley and other plugins have a tribal split with LW users who don't?

I don't understand this doom and gloom atitude toward having different tiers of LW users.

how would you feel neglected by users who are willing to pay extra for extra features... like you are in some way denied this ability?

C'mon guys, grow up!

archiea
12-17-2005, 03:50 PM
It's not about taking it as a "knock". It's about the fact that you're missing the whole point of Newtek and Lightwave. Newtek is trying to make a package that is both powerful and yet still affordable. Not a package that is powerful for those "who wish to pay for it". Here's a recent quote from Jay Roth: "We also lowered the MSRP of LightWave from $1595 to $795, taking LightWave back to it roots as the most powerful and affordable professional 3D application on the market." Back to it's roots. That means that Lightwave has always been about getting the software into the hands of anyone who wants to get into 3D graphics but at the same time, having managed to make a (proven) production quality tool and I don't think I need to link to the projects page to show where it has been used. And it seems like that is still their goal today. They wish to add as many high end features as possible to the toolkit and the whole 8.x cycle was spent re-structuring Lightwave so as to allow it for expandability in the future. And they've managed to lower the price in the meantime. Obviously, they're doing something right because they've also hired a lot of new developers in the process.


Agreed that many have lowered the price as did newtek for the changing market, but they have also allowed different tiers of users based onneeds, i.e. adobe bundles maya bundles or modular apps like DF or C4D. By doing so, these apps HAVE NOT returned to their roots. they have adapted to the changing market place which is populated with many more first come users thanks to the expanding education in 2D and 3D digital media. So product X can offer an entry level of their app without sacraficing the development pace of their pricier, more higher end app.

Newtek has decided, it seems, to keep it simple. Thats understandable for now. What I am saying is that for the future, NT should consider how its user base may want to grow outside its current deveopment pace.




All you see (or think you see) is that Newtek by lowering their price has reduced their resources to bring high end features to LW. It's kind of a moot argument since neither of us has access to Newtek's financial statments. But it's a simple case of supply and demand to know that when the price goes down, the intent is to sell more product as well as to gain a competitive edge via market share, especially in an industry that is so competitive as all the products are fairly similar in function (to make stills, animation, etc...) and sometimes price then becomes a large factor in determining which product best suits the consumers needs.


no its not the same.. ask any AE standard users vs any AE pro user... or for that matter Photoshop user vs CS user, or Maya complete user vs a Maya unlimited user....



You seem to really like the idea of paying more for additional features.
.

As I said above, ask any AE standard users vs any AE pro user... or for that matter Photoshop user vs CS user, or Maya complete user vs a Maya unlimited user....


Nuke just came out for the Mac for 4K+. it costs more than shake for 3K but it offers more. whats wrong with paying more for more features? I just don;t undestand your logic? Should I just be content with mac paint and not ahve ANY development?

BTW, my point was to pay for more features NOW, not 2 years from now....



There are plenty of other package that will suit your needs and take that extra money off your hands, no questions asked. It would be a lot quicker then trolling around these forums constantly pushing for Newtek to change their company credo by breaking up Lightwave into affordable and expensive software packages.

This s so julvenile... and so indicative of the mindset of so many in this community. One debates that status quo here and they are trolling.

And since when is, say, $1500 (for a pro LW) expensive for an app if it includes the features I mentioned in the above posts? One can easily spend near that in worley plugins. How different would this be than one paying $XXX for messiah because they want a better tool except that it would be fron Newtek?

Folks here just don't make any sense?

if its not for you then don't get it... its simple....

You guys treat this like a club where if someone isnt with you then they are an enemy. Don't make me use the "f" word, and its not the one that you think....:cursin:

Wonderpup
12-17-2005, 03:59 PM
Its easy to see the benifits of a hierarchy when you visualise yourself at the top of it.

The question is how would you feel if you were among the 'have nots' and had to watch from the sidelines as 'Lightwave advanced' moved on but you were left behind with an outdated version. To some users even the cost of upgrades now can be hard to meet, so they may never be able to buy into an advanced version.

AbnRanger
12-17-2005, 04:30 PM
I understand that Newtek intends to standout among the pack as one of the most (if not the most)affordable 3D solutions. I appreciate that approach. However, even though LW has some advantages in given areas, and as powerful as LW may be...overall, it still falls far short in comparison to its major competitiors...while being consistently touted "THE MOST COMPLETE SOLUTION OUT OF THE BOX." That simply IS NOT TRUE...period.

If they want to claim, "LW is the most complete solution for animators ON A BUDGET" then you guys have a strong case to make. Yet, with this "One Package-One Solution" approach...Newtek is directly or indirectly positioning :lwicon: in the very same market as XSI Foundation, Maya inCOMPLETE, and C4D Studio XL.
It sounds like many of you are just fine with that...and want to keep Lightwave in the "Minor Leagues", so to speak; all the while pretending that it's in the Majors! It is not, and at the end of the day, that's the simple truth.

Sure enough one of you will say...."Just buy Freakin' Plugins, why don't you?" How, then, does that distinguish LW from the Vanilla-flavored, base-level models of its competition?
Can't XSI Foundation customers...well...buy plugins too? Yes they can, and therefore are beating LW at its own game. They and Maya inCOMPLETE users have a greater number of 3rd party solutions to choose from.
Plus, when a college considers which program to teach from...THEY AREN'T LOOKING TO LOAD UP ON PLUGINS. They generally go with ONE package they deem as the most capable, comprehensive and what is considered INDUSTRY STANDARD.
Selling ONLY a ground-level package...is NOT INDUSTRY STANDARD. How often do you find Adobe Photoshop ELEMENTS being used in Graphic Design/Photography classes? Do schools that use Softimage or Maya use those BASE models? Thank you for making my point.

I don't want to bash LW....nor do I want it to stay the way it is. I keep hearing a steady chorus of, "Leave it just the way it is!" That leads to the old addage..."If you KEEP doing what you are doing, you will KEEP getting what you are getting.

How will LW ever improve with that kind of attitude? Go ahead, keep giving the same old excuses...and keep getting the same old results. No wonder 3rd party developers aren't beating down Newtek's doors. Like I said from the outset...ALL (you know...as in....EVERYBODY ELSE) OF LW'S COMPETITORS have either an advanced version or more advanced features. Obviously, they have a clue...somehow that approach WORKS! They are firing bullets while you guys are content firing spitwads!
"But, but...Lighwave is cheaper than those guys."
Really?....Cheaper than....let's say, I don't know...XSI Foundation?

faulknermano
12-17-2005, 08:14 PM
seriously, though, do you think that maya complete users have a "tribal split" from the maya unlimited users?



no, they're all too elitist to begin with. LOL! :cat:


edit: btw, i find this discussion academic.

AbnRanger
12-17-2005, 10:25 PM
I use Max most days and personally think it is pretty sweet.
With version 8, it's even sweeter.
You guys are using a $500 Teaser model of XSI...and you boast how, at that price, it's an OUTRIGHT better product than Max. It may have some nice capabilites, but you must be huffing some seriously wicked paint fumes to believe Character Studio, Reactor, Particle Flow, Shave N Haircut, ClothFX, and Pelt UV mapping are inferior tools compared to your own.
Somebody call an ambulance. These (XSI) guys are fading fast :D

hrgiger
12-18-2005, 08:00 AM
I understand that Newtek intends to standout among the pack as one of the most (if not the most)affordable 3D solutions. I appreciate that approach. However, even though LW has some advantages in given areas, and as powerful as LW may be...overall, it still falls far short in comparison to its major competitiors...while being consistently touted "THE MOST COMPLETE SOLUTION OUT OF THE BOX." That simply IS NOT TRUE...period.

If they want to claim, "LW is the most complete solution for animators ON A BUDGET" then you guys have a strong case to make. Yet, with this "One Package-One Solution" approach...Newtek is directly or indirectly positioning :lwicon: in the very same market as XSI Foundation, Maya inCOMPLETE, and C4D Studio XL.
It sounds like many of you are just fine with that...and want to keep Lightwave in the "Minor Leagues", so to speak; all the while pretending that it's in the Majors! It is not, and at the end of the day, that's the simple truth.

Sure enough one of you will say...."Just buy Freakin' Plugins, why don't you?" How, then, does that distinguish LW from the Vanilla-flavored, base-level models of its competition?
Can't XSI Foundation customers...well...buy plugins too? Yes they can, and therefore are beating LW at its own game. They and Maya inCOMPLETE users have a greater number of 3rd party solutions to choose from.
Plus, when a college considers which program to teach from...THEY AREN'T LOOKING TO LOAD UP ON PLUGINS. They generally go with ONE package they deem as the most capable, comprehensive and what is considered INDUSTRY STANDARD.
Selling ONLY a ground-level package...is NOT INDUSTRY STANDARD. How often do you find Adobe Photoshop ELEMENTS being used in Graphic Design/Photography classes? Do schools that use Softimage or Maya use those BASE models? Thank you for making my point.

I don't want to bash LW....nor do I want it to stay the way it is. I keep hearing a steady chorus of, "Leave it just the way it is!" That leads to the old addage..."If you KEEP doing what you are doing, you will KEEP getting what you are getting.

How will LW ever improve with that kind of attitude? Go ahead, keep giving the same old excuses...and keep getting the same old results. No wonder 3rd party developers aren't beating down Newtek's doors. Like I said from the outset...ALL (you know...as in....EVERYBODY ELSE) OF LW'S COMPETITORS have either an advanced version or more advanced features.Obviously, they have a clue...somehow that approach WORKS! They are firing bullets while you guys are content firing spitwads!
"But, but...Lighwave is cheaper than those guys."
Really?....Cheaper than....let's say, I don't know...XSI Foundation?


I was going to respond back to this one part by part, but there were so many nonsense statements, it would have been too much work to do so.

When you make statments like "LW falls far short in comparison to its major competitiors" and "LW'S COMPETITORS have either an advanced version or more advanced features", you really should give some examples or name some things you can do in other apps that you can't do in Lightwave. It might actually give some weight to your arguements. Just saying App X is better because I said so, doesn't hold up too well.

I don't see anyone on this board saying they want to keep Lightwave the way it is. Just because most people don't seem to favor breaking up Lightwave into different tiered packages does not imply that people don't want to see improvements to the software. You and Archiea seem to think that Newtek is just sitting on their hands not improving the software at all. Over the course of the 8.X cycle, they have re-written the core of the application to allow expansion in the future (you know, those high end feature thingies) and they did it while still updating the software for it's users. And they lowered the price in the process.

You keep harping up XSI foundation as the end all solution and yet still cheaper then Lightwave. Really? How many render nodes do you get with that one? Is it two? It doesn't exactly have the world's friendliest GUI as I recall either.

I don't get this attitiude that a particular 3D app has to be better then everything else out there. It's not going to work like that. One app is not going to push everyone else out or to the bottom. There are niches in the industry and Maya unlimited fills that for some, XSI or Max fills it for others and then you have C4D and Lightwave niches. You only have to look at Lightwave's resume to know that it is a proven production tool and it is used in a lot of studios. So it is one of the most affordable and powerful packages on the market today. And it's only getting better with v9 as we're finally getting some long overdue industry standard tools such as edges and ngons and a much faster renderer just to name a few...

pauland
12-18-2005, 08:59 AM
[QUOTE=Emmanuel]
http://www.joealter.com/newSite/c4d.htm
[QUOTE]

Whoops it's gone. Did Joe pull a LW with C4D as well?

Paul

hrgiger
12-18-2005, 09:07 AM
I thought that page said something about C4D creating their own hair plug-in that was remarkably similar to Joe's S&H.

toma
12-19-2005, 05:09 AM
Its easy to see the benifits of a hierarchy when you visualise yourself at the top of it.

The question is how would you feel if you were among the 'have nots' and had to watch from the sidelines as 'Lightwave advanced' moved on but you were left behind with an outdated version. To some users even the cost of upgrades now can be hard to meet, so they may never be able to buy into an advanced version.

So, I guess these won't see any difference… not anybody can pay for LW + all the plugins anyway… ;)

but if I was one of the "have not", at least I could say that I use the famous LightWave…:D

2ct.

AbnRanger
12-21-2005, 03:36 AM
...you really should give some examples or name some things you can do in other apps that you can't do in Lightwave. It might actually give some weight to your arguements. Just saying App X is better because I said so, doesn't hold up too well.
Come on now, HR....you know what I'm talking about...I've mentioned repeatedly what kind of features ALL the other applications have...that LW simply refuses to answer back. Features such as SSS, FULL Hair/Fur modules... (not a playschool version), advanced animation systems with Crowd behavior controllers... just to name a few, and some of these have been available in competing packages for a good while...yet LW seems to just ignore them.
I took a look at Modo yesterday for the first time, downloaded the trial, and I was blown away at the thought of what these guys (Hastings, Ferguson, Peebler) achieved ON THEIR OWN in such a short span of time. What in Hades was going through the minds of the execs at Newtek to let these guys go?! If NT implemented those kind of advancements into LW, then, as we speak... we would have the best [email protected] modeling program on the planet RIGHT NOW...hands down...no ?'s asked.
I don't know the whole story, and I don't want to re-open any wounds. But the proof is in the pudding. It seems that instead of innovation...NT chose to avoid rocking the boat and remain with the Status Quo.

I have two words for you...General Motors.
Their Japanese counterparts have been pulling away....now GM (Ford is right behind them) is choking on their dust. "What can Japanese carmakers do that GM and Ford can't?" Build a better vehicle for one thing.

Sounds to me like you guys want LW to follow that same path..."Nooooo...don't change anything. Leave it the way it is!" Leave the UI musty and moldy. Let LW grow old and wrinkled....don't do like ALL our competitors are doing ...SUCCESSFULLY!
Honestly...what horse do you have in this race? What's it to you if LW adds some popular plugins into the mix, in order to counter their competitors, by offering an advanced version? How will that cause you to lose sleep over it?
They'd have a version that competes well against both the base and advanced models of their counterparts, giving them a REAL run for the money. There is a MARKET FOR BOTH. Why should LW be hamstrung to suit those who don't like change.

You keep harping up XSI foundation as the end all solution and yet still cheaper then Lightwave. I'm actually not a fan of XSI at all. I simply don't want them to beat LW at it's own game. They created Foundation for one purpose only...that's to undercut LW in the market niche they (LW) owned for some time. I'm just saying that NT can take a stinging swipe at Softimage's (and Maya's) top model (still for thousands less)...and do quite well, if they wanted to.

I don't get this attitiude that a particular 3D app has to be better then everything else out there. It's not going to work like that. One app is not going to push everyone else out or to the bottom.Well, when you bid on a project...don't you TRY to OUTDO the other guy?
If Newtek's NOT TRYING to be the best (which they state is their goal) what are they in it for?...to be just another option?
That's the kind of thinking that drove Hastings and Co. away...The kind of thinking that says, "Don't get real innovative...you might break something!":cry:

MikeMD
12-21-2005, 11:18 AM
You guys are using a $500 Teaser model of XSI...and you boast how, at that price, it's an OUTRIGHT better product than Max.

Well, it is.

Better modeling, rigging and animation tools and a much more stable app.. Those are the basics and the most important tools. . Max may have hair and better particles, cloth, but that's about it. Overall Foundation kicks its ***. It's not even worth commenting further.

AbnRanger
12-21-2005, 02:30 PM
Well, it is.

Better modeling, rigging and animation tools and a much more stable app.. Those are the basics and the most important tools. . Max may have hair and better particles, cloth, but that's about it. Overall Foundation kicks its ***. It's not even worth commenting further.

Give me Character Studio ANY day of the week...you glue-sniffer, you :D

archiea
12-22-2005, 12:52 AM
Its easy to see the benifits of a hierarchy when you visualise yourself at the top of it.

The question is how would you feel if you were among the 'have nots' and had to watch from the sidelines as 'Lightwave advanced' moved on but you were left behind with an outdated version. To some users even the cost of upgrades now can be hard to meet, so they may never be able to buy into an advanced version.


>rewind...play< "As I said above, ask any AE standard users vs any AE pro user... or for that matter Photoshop user vs CS user, or Maya complete user vs a Maya unlimited user...." regarding have and have nots.. for christ sakes, what kind of community is this, the CG amish?


BTW, in case you haven't noticed.. we are all effectively using the outdated version...

archiea
12-22-2005, 01:04 AM
I understand that Newtek intends to standout among the pack as one of the most (if not the most)affordable 3D solutions. I appreciate that approach. However, even though LW has some advantages in given areas, and as powerful as LW may be...overall, it still falls far short in comparison to its major competitiors...while being consistently touted "THE MOST COMPLETE SOLUTION OUT OF THE BOX." That simply IS NOT TRUE...period.

well, in NT defense, compared to the offerings of other apps, they do have a point. I think its more of apoint that you are given a modler and renderer in one app compared to say Modo, poser, etc.... and that they cover major aeas like dynamics fur (sas lite), animation, etc...

Now as to whether their current implementation of fur, char animation, FX, etc is up to your standards, that is something else.

however I do agree with the bulk of your assessment...



I don't want to bash LW....nor do I want it to stay the way it is. I keep hearing a steady chorus of, "Leave it just the way it is!" That leads to the old addage..."If you KEEP doing what you are doing, you will KEEP getting what you are getting.

How will LW ever improve with that kind of attitude? Go ahead, keep giving the same old excuses...and keep getting the same old results. No wonder 3rd party developers aren't beating down Newtek's doors. Like I said from the outset...ALL (you know...as in....EVERYBODY ELSE) OF LW'S COMPETITORS have either an advanced version or more advanced features. Obviously, they have a clue...somehow that approach WORKS! They are firing bullets while you guys are content firing spitwads!
"But, but...Lighwave is cheaper than those guys."
Really?....Cheaper than....let's say, I don't know...XSI Foundation?

Like I said, the current mindset of this community has me shocked. You bring up some sort of criticism of NT, liek I did when they reduced the price, and youare labeled as a troll. I can see many being turned off to that close mindedness and moving on. Hence the community gets a bit inbred. It reminds me of the old amiga days where many just didn't see the writing on the wall. At least here Nt is still developming.. but i was just chiming in that I would pay more for faster development should Nt introduce a sepaarate product tier. Then folks chime in here that one has an "elitist" attitude to think such. That the community would be divided into the "have and have nots". what kind of nonscense is this? If youa re so happy with LW current price and development pace, then you should already be content with the "have not" catagorty... No offense intended, but lets get real.

archiea
12-22-2005, 01:05 AM
no, they're all too elitist to begin with. LOL! :cat:


edit: btw, i find this discussion academic.

Yes, considering that NT made it clear that they are NOT splitting up LW. however its still food for thought.

archiea
12-22-2005, 01:14 AM
I was going to respond back to this one part by part, but there were so many nonsense statements, it would have been too much work to do so.

When you make statments like "LW falls far short in comparison to its major competitiors" and "LW'S COMPETITORS have either an advanced version or more advanced features", you really should give some examples or name some things you can do in other apps that you can't do in Lightwave. It might actually give some weight to your arguements. Just saying App X is better because I said so, doesn't hold up too well.


Actually he probably didn't because I did previously. And its not just features, hrgiger, its workflow and integration and stability. Animation master sports an impressive feature list, but how stable is it.. and how is its workflow.

Look at Modo, a big portion of its selling point is workflow.

Same with messiah.... So while messiah and LW do character animation, why did so many LW users get Messiah?



I don't see anyone on this board saying they want to keep Lightwave the way it is. Just because most people don't seem to favor breaking up Lightwave into different tiered packages does not imply that people don't want to see improvements to the software. You and Archiea seem to think that Newtek is just sitting on their hands not improving the software at all. Over the course of the 8.X cycle, they have re-written the core of the application to allow expansion in the future (you know, those high end feature thingies) and they did it while still updating the software for it's users. And they lowered the price in the process.


No one accused Nt of sitting on their hands..in fact they have had a monumental task for the past few years. As I stated so many freakin posts before, do you think the industry cares about NT's problems? I don't recall seeing one violin at Siggraph for any company that has closed in the paast few years.




You keep harping up XSI foundation as the end all solution and yet still cheaper then Lightwave. Really? How many render nodes do you get with that one? Is it two? It doesn't exactly have the world's friendliest GUI as I recall either.

I don't get this attitiude that a particular 3D app has to be better then everything else out there. It's not going to work like that. One app is not going to push everyone else out or to the bottom. There are niches in the industry and Maya unlimited fills that for some, XSI or Max fills it for others and then you have C4D and Lightwave niches. You only have to look at Lightwave's resume to know that it is a proven production tool and it is used in a lot of studios. So it is one of the most affordable and powerful packages on the market today. And it's only getting better with v9 as we're finally getting some long overdue industry standard tools such as edges and ngons and a much faster renderer just to name a few...

Thats all good. I'm just saying that I would ahve paid extra to get them two years ago. thats all.

archiea
12-22-2005, 01:19 AM
Come on now, HR....you know what I'm talking about...I've mentioned repeatedly what kind of features ALL the other applications have...that LW simply refuses to answer back. Features such as SSS, FULL Hair/Fur modules... (not a playschool version), advanced animation systems with Crowd behavior controllers... just to name a few, and some of these have been available in competing packages for a good while...yet LW seems to just ignore them.
I took a look at Modo yesterday for the first time, downloaded the trial, and I was blown away at the thought of what these guys (Hastings, Ferguson, Peebler) achieved ON THEIR OWN in such a short span of time. What in Hades was going through the minds of the execs at Newtek to let these guys go?! If NT implemented those kind of advancements into LW, then, as we speak... we would have the best [email protected] modeling program on the planet RIGHT NOW...hands down...no ?'s asked.
I don't know the whole story, and I don't want to re-open any wounds. But the proof is in the pudding. It seems that instead of innovation...NT chose to avoid rocking the boat and remain with the Status Quo.

I have two words for you...General Motors.
Their Japanese counterparts have been pulling away....now GM (Ford is right behind them) is choking on their dust. "What can Japanese carmakers do that GM and Ford can't?" Build a better vehicle for one thing.

Sounds to me like you guys want LW to follow that same path..."Nooooo...don't change anything. Leave it the way it is!" Leave the UI musty and moldy. Let LW grow old and wrinkled....don't do like ALL our competitors are doing ...SUCCESSFULLY!
Honestly...what horse do you have in this race? What's it to you if LW adds some popular plugins into the mix, in order to counter their competitors, by offering an advanced version? How will that cause you to lose sleep over it?
They'd have a version that competes well against both the base and advanced models of their counterparts, giving them a REAL run for the money. There is a MARKET FOR BOTH. Why should LW be hamstrung to suit those who don't like change.
I'm actually not a fan of XSI at all. I simply don't want them to beat LW at it's own game. They created Foundation for one purpose only...that's to undercut LW in the market niche they (LW) owned for some time. I'm just saying that NT can take a stinging swipe at Softimage's (and Maya's) top model (still for thousands less)...and do quite well, if they wanted to.
Well, when you bid on a project...don't you TRY to OUTDO the other guy?
If Newtek's NOT TRYING to be the best (which they state is their goal) what are they in it for?...to be just another option?
That's the kind of thinking that drove Hastings and Co. away...The kind of thinking that says, "Don't get real innovative...you might break something!":cry:


Thanks for the refreshing opinion.. This is the kind of blood that we need here. :thumbsup:

Wonderpup
12-22-2005, 04:33 AM
Hi archiea,

You didn't actualy answer my question- how would you, personaly, feel if you found yourself left behind as 'Lightwave advanced' moved on but you could not join the party?

The problem with your arguments, some of which are very powerful I admit, is that they are based on the assumption that human beings are totaly rational creatures, driven only by logic and reason. But, as we all know, they are not. People are driven as much, if not more, by emotion as by logic.

So while you may argue that there is no rational reason why people would resent being reclassified as 'second class' users, they would still resent it.

Your problem, really, is historical- because Lightwave has always been a one tier app, those currently using it would feel threatened by the fragmentation if they could not join the 'winning' side.

In the long run your idea would work because to new users it would seem natural that Lightwave was split, the way it feels natural that XSI is split.

So I suppose the question is really would the pain be worth the gain?- would Newtek emerge stonger or weaker from the exercise.

Initialy they would lose a lot of users, who would be angry at being left out in the cold, but that could be offset by the new users attracted by the new fast track lightwave.

Speaking personaly, if Lightwave did split I would move to XSI, because there would be little reason left not to do so- the fact that Lightwave is a single app is a major reason why I stay with it.

pauland
12-22-2005, 04:48 AM
Wonderpup, I think you're rather complicating things. People buy software to accomplish a task. They buy on the basis of what the software does, what they can afford to pay and what the infrastructure (community, acceptance in the market, support and related software/materials) is like.

Hobbyists/one man bands are more price sensitive than larger concerns.

As a one-man band I'd be delighted to see LW Xtreme. Even if I couldn't afford the bells and whistles I'd still buy LW Base if it did what I want. Good luck to those that buy the Xtreme version. The situation is little different to what currently happens - you buy LW and buy whatever plugins that you can afford. Having an Xtreme version (whatever that would mean) wouldn't affect my options or anyone elses.

I don't think this second class citizen comes into it at all. We all know if we were first-class LW citizens, we'd just go ahead and buy every plugin (and other software) there was that we could use.

What is important is having choice (of LW, plugins and other vendors offerings) for the LW user and a healthy income stream and business for Newtek.

As far as not being able to join the party goes - my bank balance isn't quite optimal for going for LW9 just yet, but I don't resent those that have the money to do so.

Wonderpup
12-22-2005, 07:25 AM
Hi pauland,

Suppose that early next year Newtek announced that lightwave 9 was going to released in two versions, basic and advanced, with most of the good stuff going into the advanced version that, for the sake of argument, you knew you could never afford.

How would you feel as these forums were full of excited posts about how great these new features were- features that you will never have?

It's not that this couldn't be done- all I'm saying is do not underestimate the resentment and anger that would be felt by those who would be left behind.

hrgiger
12-22-2005, 07:42 AM
It seems you're all missing the point because Lightwave won't be split so it's kind of a moot point to argue at this time. Newtek has repeatedly made it clear that they intend to deliver a high quality app at an affordable price. They do wish to bring high end features that you wish to see implemented in Lightwave but they will do it at whatever the current price of Lightwave. But then, that's the beauty of Lightwave and it is the niche it has found for itself in the market. If these features aren't implemented at the rate that fill your needs, there are other software packages that can fill your needs. But then that goes for any app.
Personally, seeing that LW has been restructured over the course of the 8.x cycle and an improved SDK, I only see the rate at which new and innovative features are brought to Lightwave after the 9.0 release increasing.

MikeMD
12-22-2005, 08:42 AM
Give me Character Studio ANY day of the week...you glue-sniffer, you

No glue or paint sniffing or any kind, and the only smoking going on is the smoke coming out of the burning of now useless copies of max CDs and manuals.

Lightwave and XSI only.

archiea
12-23-2005, 01:07 AM
Hi archiea,

You didn't actualy answer my question- how would you, personaly, feel if you found yourself left behind as 'Lightwave advanced' moved on but you could not join the party?

The problem with your arguments, some of which are very powerful I admit, is that they are based on the assumption that human beings are totaly rational creatures, driven only by logic and reason. But, as we all know, they are not. People are driven as much, if not more, by emotion as by logic.

So while you may argue that there is no rational reason why people would resent being reclassified as 'second class' users, they would still resent it.

Your problem, really, is historical- because Lightwave has always been a one tier app, those currently using it would feel threatened by the fragmentation if they could not join the 'winning' side.

In the long run your idea would work because to new users it would seem natural that Lightwave was split, the way it feels natural that XSI is split.

So I suppose the question is really would the pain be worth the gain?- would Newtek emerge stonger or weaker from the exercise.

Initialy they would lose a lot of users, who would be angry at being left out in the cold, but that could be offset by the new users attracted by the new fast track lightwave.

Speaking personaly, if Lightwave did split I would move to XSI, because there would be little reason left not to do so- the fact that Lightwave is a single app is a major reason why I stay with it.


Ok, seriously, this is stupid.

Explain to me how someone would be left out of an advanced... or for that matter maya unlimited, xsi, 3d studio max, rtc, or even plugins like realflow or worley's collection. explain to me what would make you feel left out...

maybe for once some of you would grow up, instead of having this arrested development that is going on here. Sorry for being harsh, but with that mindset what is next.... folk here lashing out at people who use third party plugins with LW because it makes THEM feel left out? C'mon!!!!!

AbnRanger
12-23-2005, 02:35 AM
Honestly, nobody in their right mind would lose a night's sleep over it.
HR...I DO get what you are saying...a few years ago, that would be fine. But what I'm driving at is the fact that MARKET CONDITIONS HAVE CHANGED, in case you haven't noticed. There is a market for an Advanced version with all the bells and whistles....and it does add to a company's image and stature as a whole.

Another positive aspect would be, that by cutting a deal with Worley and the guys at Maestro (just to name a few) the average consumer could perhaps save some serious $$$ compared to buying all the plugins separately. Autodesk has proved it can be done...without adding additional cost.
They didn't incorporate the major tools, they are known for, out of generosity. They do so because THE MARKET demands more than a few modest changes each cycle.

You also have to take into account educational institutions. Universities are a crucial harbinger to the CG industry; and they usually teach with software that is viewed as INDUSTRY STANDARD. Budget software doesn't meet this criteria. With an Advanced version that rivaled the competition, LW would have a much stronger case to make in that regard.

Look, if you're going to compete, you go into "The Big Game," with your "A" game...so to speak. Newtek's competitors are putting their BEST 3rd Party Players in their starting lineup (with one unified Advanced package) and leverage them against LW, who seem comfortable leaving theirs on the sidelines.

I'm not here just rambling...I hope someone at Newtek is listening. Why meet your competition "Half-Stepping" with playschool toys like SasLite?
As an NBA Basketball player might say..."Get that weak stuff out'a Here!"
Charge what you must, but the folks at Newtek need to kick it into High gear and put the BEST available tools INSIDE of Lightwave, so, with one box...one install... users can make their customers, as well as Newtek, shine....be it within one package (like 3ds Max) or an Advanced edition.

Wonderpup
12-23-2005, 02:51 AM
Hi archiea,

Maybe I misunderstood what you are proposing. I thought the idea was to split Lightwave into two versions- an advanced version and a more basic version. The advanced version would cost more because it would have better features.

But why the split? Why not just increase the price of Lightwave as it is and raise more R&D money that way?

The only reason to have an advanced package in the first place is to allow those who can afford it to use their wealth to gain advantage over those who lack the resources.

In other words the whole point of your idea is to create a division between those who can afford advanced features and those who can't, and to focus R&D onto the more wealthy users.

This works well for those who benifit from it- but what about the rest- what is their incentive to stay around? They may as well just buy XSI foundation- it's cheaper than lightwave and just as capable.

hrgiger
12-23-2005, 07:07 AM
HR...I DO get what you are saying...a few years ago, that would be fine. But what I'm driving at is the fact that MARKET CONDITIONS HAVE CHANGED, in case you haven't noticed.

Oh, I noticed. It seems to me that Lightwave dropping it's price from $2500 to $1500 a few years back is what initally spurred these programs to split into basic and advanced versions to begin with. There was no Maya complete and Maya unlimited and there was no XSI foundation before Lightwave spurred some of these other companies into a price drop. So apparently they saw Lightwave as a threat and had to drop their prices to compete. Companies just don't drop their price just because they're feeling generous. They're responding to market conditions. As Newtek started this trend, there would be no need for them to split into basic and advanced versions because their goal is to output an advanced product at an affordable price. In fact, it would be highly to their advantage to bring us all these high end features at a price that none of these other companies could compete with (or would want to compete with at these prices). Them dropping the price to sub $1,000 prices just confirms that this is their goal. Lightwave 9 is bringing us closer to industry standards providing us with edges, ngons, and a significantly higher quality and faster renderer. Not to mention the restructuring of Lightwave's core to allow for expansion in the future.
I have already stated that I believe a collaboration with third party developers would be a good idea to offer us bundles of software at a reduced price. But then, they have already done this with the last few upgrades, Digital Fusion with 8 and Vue with 9. Worley plugs usually sell at a reduced rate if you buy them within the first few weeks of release.

Yog
12-23-2005, 07:48 AM
How would you feel as these forums were full of excited posts about how great these new features were- features that you will never have?First off, would you need these hypothetical new tools in the LW-Base version? There is very little that can't be done with the tool set of any of the current 3D apps, it's just the length of time it takes you to achieve it. If you weighed up the time verse cost issue of upgrading to LW_XTreme you would know whether to upgrade or not. This should be the basis of all software purchases/upgrades.

As to NEVER have the tools, unless NT choose to do things differently, most other companies have a drip down upgrade path.
For XSI-4, Foundation didn't come with pre-built rigs or the Texture Layers function, whereas Essentials did, but then Essentials didn't have the paint and composition editor that Advanced did. Come XSI-5, Advanced gets ome new tools, Essentials gets paint and composition and Foundation gets pre-built rigs and Texture Layers, as well as all versions get a polish to the basic tools. I'm not so familiar with Maya's upgrades, but I am aware they practice the drip down upgrade path as well.

Yog
12-23-2005, 09:13 AM
I feel that at this time the Base vrs Xtreme argument is a symptom of the crossroads Lightwave finds itself at, rather than the crossroads itself. The real issue is, where's Lightwave going, and what's it's market ?

About ten years ago there were very defined roles for the different software packages. MAX had games and architecture, Alias Wavefront and Softimage had films sewn up between them (and rarely ventured into TV work), and LW had the TV work in the US as well as being a general entry level 3D toolbox elsewhere. That gradually changed until about three years ago all the software packages were trying to capture as much of ALL the markets they could. Now I would say it's about halfway between the two extremes. All the packages seem to have made a play for the games market (LW possibly making the weakest play), MAX seems to have withdrawn slightly from their attempts at the film market, but have really gone all out to secure the arch-viz market. Maya has consolidated it's large studio role, in no small part due to it's ability to act as a workflow hub, and Softimage, whilst playing catchup, is attempting to attack both ends of the spectrum with both strong showings at entry level and studio level, whilst making a good showing in the games market.
So where does Lightwave fit into this ?
LW still seems to be doing well in the TV market in the US, but what little share it had in Europe is being further eroded by Maya and XSI. Even though LW was late coming to the games market, it never really made a splash, except when it came to modelling hi resolution models for later normal mapping, which it's now losing again because of lack of Zbrush support. Feature films have been the biggest growth for LW, even if it meant going back to it's old standards of spaceships and set extensions, rather than character animation led work.

I personally think this is a pivotal period for Lightwave.
I really think that Newtek need to have a very focused market stratagy at the momment. If it tries for too broad an approach at the 3D market I see it getting swallowed by some of the big boys that are willing to sacrifice short term costs for a bigger market share later, not to mention being nibbled at by some very promissing new fish to the pond. I think NT need to focus at a particular sector of the market, or even just a single disipline, grab it hold hard, hold it, then expand from there.
High quality character animation is still out, because whilst LW has improved, so have it's competitors. Rendering is only holding on by virtu of unlimited render nodes, as opposed to quality, but that won't be a unique feature for much longer.
Personally, even though it hasn't had much attention lately (even LW-9 is only playing catchup), I still think modelling is LW's main strength. Despite some very good up and coming competitors like Silo and Modo, I would take them head on, improve Modeler's toolset, workflow and reputation to the point the young pretenders have a hard time assailing LW's reputation. Possibly the games market would be the place to take a stand, as it's piplines aren't so rigid and object/animation formats are more universal.
It would still take a lot of work (stripping out the number of tools in Modeler, simplifying, unifying, and putting a lot more work into displacement technology (I'm not convinced that NT's "version" of micro poly displacement will find favour)), but I think it is achievable, and would provide a solid rock to hold onto during the uncertain times I see ahead for the industry in general.

Pavlov
12-23-2005, 09:54 AM
Newtek should be hiring a bunch of programmers, (say 5 of them)

Regarding number of programmers working on LW, i already asked time ago but got no answer.
Can we know their number and names ? Other companies programmer's names are on websites, in a case they were just 8 some time ago.
Without polemic intentions, LW's development has been so objectively weak lately (talking of the "visible side" of 8.x cycle) in comparison with other 3D tools, that sometimes i find reasonable to think there are just a couple of programmers working on it. It's a "scalar" observation, since some single plugin developers have done huge amounts of work alone in the meantime.
Software is complex, dev should go sky-rocket faslty to catch up, code is done from others; my hope is there are at least a dozen programmers working full time on it.

thanks and Merry Christmas
Paolo Zambrini

EDIT regarding splitting, i'm against this. NT is now involved in a crucial and difficult (maybe even too difficult) catch up operation, i think this splitting would be an un-needed "energy leak". Opening SDK and working with devs is the right way; dont forget CS was integrated in max after a long time, and actually Autodesk has a monster economic power. When Autodesk integrates a plugin, its development will be in hundred of programmer's hands so it will have a better dev than before.
Newtek has not this power; look at HV, after G.Duqesne went away nobody was able/had time to touch it. Or Spreadsheet, Motion Mixer, etcetc.
Imho people asking for splitting forget that LW is at the lower end of pro-market not for a matter of choice, but because recent events did not give other possibilities. Ironically enough, the direction i hope NT goes is the opposite: seamless integration of tools in an unique, smooth environment.

Wonderpup
12-23-2005, 10:44 AM
I think Yog's got it right here- this idea of 'Lightwave extreme' is really just another way of saying we want a better Lightwave, so this discussion is really academic, as someone has already said.

Though I do think the fact that Lightwave is a one stop solution is quite a strong USP for newtek- if we discount Max on price grounds.

Yog, I take your point about trickle down, but by the time Foundation has hair I probably won't, so in practical terms it might as well be never.

At least when 9 finaly arrives I know that I will have access to every feature, rather than being in the position of wondering what goodies may drop from the rich mans table this time around.

Nemoid
12-23-2005, 10:46 AM
yep Pavlov i agree on what you said. I'd say one thing : compared to Autodesk/Alias monster team, NT one is indeed small. the only thing that can actually make a difference are ideas and capability to put them in shape. for example : if you take ZBrush, well its coded by pixolator and maybe only a few guys. but it makes the difference. why? well, because it contains a whole lot of great ideas , quite well applied. that's why it now plays a major role together with "high end" apps (high end is a term i don't like so much.
ZB team is one of the only team that applies things elaborated more recently in CG studies and papers, while other apps apply old ideas and concepts most of times.
Now considering Lw, it should simple happen the same as ZB : the main effort must be in good ideas and good implementation of them.
in one side we have some standards to respect : for example edges and ngons, edge weights, or snaps and other devices for precise modelling, and much other.
on the other side there can be good ideas going beyond what's known as a standard or creating a new one sometimes.

for example, a plug like Maestro shows clearly that with a good idea you can really enhance animation possibilities for Lw too : it is a solid tool which allows excellent things : if tightly integrated it would be fantastic.

at the base of IK booster there's a good idea. problem is that it has to be extended to its full potential : rig a character quicly with way less effort, and apply dynamics on it.

the rule should be.

Ok , apply whats standard. its needed, especially if its useful.
then go beyond :consider what's Lw, what an animator would LOVE to work with and create something new and make it so solid, efficient and logic that it solves problems and speeds workflow. this can be done in time. don't develop a tool into a partial way.Never. Base it on good foundations and make it grow it in time. :)

Yog
12-23-2005, 12:25 PM
Yog, I take your point about trickle down, but by the time Foundation has hair I probably won't, so in practical terms it might as well be never.Yes, I think hair is the main (possibly only) stumbling block to the XSI layered product line-up.

Although I personally don't need hair, I strongly feel that hair should be an option for all levels of XSI, even (and my preference) if it is sold as a seperate option. In fact hair and composition are the only features of XSI-Advanced that cannot be purchased seperately for foundation. Even then any 3rd-party compositor could be used instead of the built in one.

archiea
12-25-2005, 12:43 AM
Hi archiea,



The only reason to have an advanced package in the first place is to allow those who can afford it to use their wealth to gain advantage over those who lack the resources.

In other words the whole point of your idea is to create a division between those who can afford advanced features and those who can't, and to focus R&D onto the more wealthy users.

This works well for those who benifit from it- but what about the rest- what is their incentive to stay around? They may as well just buy XSI foundation- it's cheaper than lightwave and just as capable.

Your conjecture is way beyond being far fetched....

archiea
01-04-2006, 08:23 PM
Final cut pro 6 extreme may be announced...

http://www.thinksecret.com/news/finalcut6.html

wow, I guess all of us Final cut express and final cut users will feel cheated. Wha wha wha..

Like I said, i just don;t get the mindset of the community here that feel an optional higher end version in LW will some how be a personal blow to them.

Wonderpup
01-05-2006, 08:16 AM
So, you think if Newtek split 9 into a basic and advanced version, put most of the good stuff into the advanced version at double the current price that everyone would be quite happy about it?

So why don't they do it then?

bobakabob
01-05-2006, 09:07 AM
IMO Lightwave's great strength is that it is a dependable "out of the box" professional 3D solution. This has always been its appeal.

I think it would be a bad move to imitate the "Lite -> Standard -> Everything Except the Kitchen Sink" approach of rival programs. They are overpriced, confusing and difficult to market effectively.

The hope is that Newtek will improve hair and cloth as these are fundamental features these days.

Cheers,

Bob

AbnRanger
01-05-2006, 09:32 AM
So, you think if Newtek split 9 into a basic and advanced version, put most of the good stuff into the advanced version at double the current price that everyone would be quite happy about it?

So why don't they do it then?
They could go either way and very few would lose a night's sleep over it...so let's cool it, shall we? :D
My main concern was not much different than everyone else's. That is, Newtek needs to come out of the bull pen, so to speak, throwing their BEST stuff. It doesn't matter to me, really, if that comes in the form of one unified package, an Advanced version, or one package with plugin bundles/modules like HR was talking about (similar to C4D's modules). But please, Newtek, don't come half-stepping with this "Lite" stuff. :stop:
I'd like to credit them, though, for tackling a tough chore like overhauling the core of major components, like the Renderer, and SubD's. It may not seem to flashy, but having quicker Render times and quicker SubD performance is something EVERY :lwicon: user can appreciate on a daily basis.

Wonderpup
01-05-2006, 10:29 AM
So, you think if Newtek split 9 into a basic and advanced version, put most of the good stuff into the advanced version at double the current price that everyone would be quite happy about it?

So why don't they do it then?


So why don't they do it then?

Its a valid, if hypothetical, question. The answer is because it would be very unpopular and would probably lose them business.

I agree with the idea that Newtek need to make the most of what they have got to offer. I think most of us are realistic enough not to expect Lightwave to suddenly mutate into a state of the art package, bursting with innovation and cutting edge stuff overnight- but it would be helpfull if the new stuff that is being done were presented in a dynamic and forceful way.

I'm trying to sell my company on lightwave as a replacement for Max at present- so I need 9 to look as good as it can.

AbnRanger
01-05-2006, 05:16 PM
I'm trying to sell my company on lightwave as a replacement for Max at present- so I need 9 to look as good as it can.Good luck...cause with Max 8's recent release, it's really got me torn...with it's Hair/Fur system that's MUCH faster than what can be done in LW (using Sasquatch or otherwise). And the new Pelt UV Mapping feature makes life alot easier as well. Tough sell indeed.
I'm hopeful LW9 will make some strides. Can't wait.

archiea
01-05-2006, 07:07 PM
So, you think if Newtek split 9 into a basic and advanced version, put most of the good stuff into the advanced version at double the current price that everyone would be quite happy about it?

So why don't they do it then?


nope... leave ver 9 as is, and have ver 9 extreme have advanced shaders like SSS and occlusion, 3D tracking, instancing, crowd control, etc. ..basically the stuff we probably won't see for another two years, while other apps have it now.

Like I said a billion times, but the oatmeal you have for brains appears to be not digesting this, the point of an extreme is to have the features that would have taken 2 or 3 years for NT to get into LW, and to have then NOW. Some of us would pay more to have them NOW. If folks are OK with LW's current development, fine, then just get the current version as standard.

Should I type slower next time for you to understand this? :twak:

faulknermano
01-05-2006, 08:04 PM
Like I said a billion times, but the oatmeal you have for brains appears to be not digesting this, the point of an extreme is to have the features that would have taken 2 or 3 years for NT to get into LW, and to have then NOW. Some of us would pay more to have them NOW. If folks are OK with LW's current development, fine, then just get the current version as standard.


but what makes you sure that it can be released anytime soon? as i said before, it's all academic. Maya, XSi can have tiers because their technology is already here. tiers are a marketing thing. but LW development is not ready for that, imo.

faulknermano
01-05-2006, 08:05 PM
I'd like to credit them, though, for tackling a tough chore like overhauling the core of major components, like the Renderer, and SubD's. It may not seem to flashy, but having quicker Render times and quicker SubD performance is something EVERY :lwicon: user can appreciate on a daily basis.

especially since they are already the strengths of LW in the first place. :thumbsup:

archiea
01-05-2006, 08:16 PM
but what makes you sure that it can be released anytime soon? as i said before, it's all academic. Maya, XSi can have tiers because their technology is already here. tiers are a marketing thing. but LW development is not ready for that, imo.


Why is apple announcing Final Cut Extreme? Are you saying that its just for marketing? As is Aftereffects pro, Maya unlimited, etc?

The point is to get NT on the fast burner as far as development. And to do it now. What would you suggest that is needed to make that happen NOW.

faulknermano
01-05-2006, 08:35 PM
Why is apple announcing Final Cut Extreme? Are you saying that its just for marketing? As is Aftereffects pro, Maya unlimited, etc?



no, that's not what i meant. i meant that *their* technology is already there. all they have to do is how to market that technology. look, like you, i dont believe that there's going to be an elitist subsection of LW even if a tiered LW comes out (nobody can match the Mayan elitism, for me). but LW has no new technology that can boast it being advanced. at this point in time, you'd have to "leapfrog" quite a bit. if you were such a giant like alias/autodesk, you can have different development teams working on one product: one works on a special dynamics system, while the other works on the stablity and useability of the base app, for example. then merge their efforts together and you can justify a tiered product: one is the base app, and the other is the base + the dynamics system. without leapfrogging there's no point. "standard" users are going to expect a level of development on par with what they pay, as upgrades or a new product.



The point is to get NT on the fast burner as far as development. And to do it now. What would you suggest that is needed to make that happen NOW.

one thing for sure, it's not about a tiering LW. increase development results by making good choices about hiring developers, making deals with them, etc. leapfrogging technology, basically. now, once the technology is in place, then it makes more sense to talk about advanced versions of LW, or creative ways to market that. but not before. a good question to ask is "what is in the future development of LW that will be so special that it will break away from the norm of what we know now as LW's development path?"

Nitisara
01-05-2006, 09:34 PM
I can suppose that the main idea of this thread is to suggest NewTek to produce/buy advanced technologies, and to compensate expenses by users who want/can pay for this.
Frankly speaking, I don't think that more money will automatically bring better tools. Because otherwise Autodesk or other software giants would already produce best 3D software - and it is not so.

My idea would be to communicate wore with LW users and to know their deep needs and to get their feedback. This could help in LW development much more than income of extra thousands of $. And this forum is already a big resource of feedback and suggestions on improvements.
Often when I work in LW I catch myself on a thought: "Definitely nobody had ever did what I am doing, because if anyone did, then this would be corrected or improved long time ago..."

archiea
01-05-2006, 09:56 PM
I can suppose that the main idea of this thread is to suggest NewTek to produce/buy advanced technologies, and to compensate expenses by users who want/can pay for this.
Frankly speaking, I don't think that more money will automatically bring better tools. Because otherwise Autodesk or other software giants would already produce best 3D software - and it is not so.

My idea would be to communicate wore with LW users and to know their deep needs and to get their feedback. This could help in LW development much more than income of extra thousands of $. And this forum is already a big resource of feedback and suggestions on improvements.
Often when I work in LW I catch myself on a thought: "Definitely nobody had ever did what I am doing, because if anyone did, then this would be corrected or improved long time ago..."

Thats a good point.. but assuming everything else is equal, who can debate the benefit of more resources.. i.e. development cash. While LW is playing catch up, you have to wonder what more resources would have accomplished...

archiea
01-05-2006, 10:10 PM
no, that's not what i meant. i meant that *their* technology is already there. all they have to do is how to market that technology.


No, they invested in an andvanced technology, in this case uber-HD 4:4:4 video, an area where many FCP users may not need. However, being that Apple is aggressive and whats to be a leader and not a follower, they will invest in this technology and charge accordingly. I just wish newtek had the same aggressive stance, liek the way ver 6 was a leader in HDR.



look, like you, i dont believe that there's going to be an elitist subsection of LW even if a tiered LW comes out (nobody can match the Mayan elitism, for me). but LW has no new technology that can boast it being advanced. at this point in time, you'd have to "leapfrog" quite a bit. if you were such a giant like alias/autodesk, you can have different development teams working on one product: one works on a special dynamics system, while the other works on the stablity and useability of the base app, for example. then merge their efforts together and you can justify a tiered product: one is the base app, and the other is the base + the dynamics system.

yup! thats what I want. Folks here see it as elitism.









one thing for sure, it's not about a tiering LW. increase development results by making good choices about hiring developers, making deals with them, etc. leapfrogging technology, basically. now, once the technology is in place, then it makes more sense to talk about advanced versions of LW, or creative ways to market that. but not before. a good question to ask is "what is in the future development of LW that will be so special that it will break away from the norm of what we know now as LW's development path?"

Huh? That sounds like management speak. I just want my investment in LW to remain competative. It seems like the split that happened a few years ago was that fork in the road. Its like Alias never coming out with maya and trying to hammer in features into an old architecture.

In general, i'm seeign this "LW going back to its roots" as an example of complacency... like LW doesn't want to go head to head and just want to remain in its own niche. The industry has outgrown its roots... companies have restrutructured their product.... look at the companies that have been around as long as LW... they have tiered their products.. because while they don't want to lose their base customers, they have realized that they have to remain competative with the ever changing marketplace to remain competative, hence the tiered products.

Wonderpup
01-06-2006, 03:09 AM
Hi archiea,

So, you don't want to take Lightwave in it's current state of development and split it- you want to take Newteks current resources and split them.

But if these resources are insufficiant now, how does splitting them into two sections improve the situation? All that would happen is that the development of the base version would go slower, while those working on the advanced version disappeared into a back room somewhere for a couple of years. This is exactly the strategy Newtek rejected as being too risky in terms of losing market share.

Unless you are suggesting Newtek simply go on a spending spree and employ a lot more people purely to work on an extreme version. But if they could afford to do this, it would make more sense to employ these people to improve the existing version.

What you are missing here is the reason that Maya and Softimage were split in the first place- they could not survive by selling a relatively high cost product to a small number of people- they needed to be able to sell a lower cost product to a larger number of people.

As faulknermano points out, it's one thing to take an existing technology and subdivide it for marketing reasons- it's quite another to set about creating that technology in the first place.

archiea
01-06-2006, 10:01 PM
Hi archiea,

So, you don't want to take Lightwave in it's current state of development and split it- you want to take Newteks current resources and split them.


:foreheads

I basially replying to this to help get my current aggressions at work out....

Rainman, listen, the point is for NT to hire MORE people to AUGMENT LW development. i.e. keep the current team to do the standard edition and hire more folks to work on the advanced stuff... Then perhaps get additional folks to work on the integration of the new material or even just to streamline LW in general.





What you are missing here is the reason that Maya and Softimage were split in the first place- they could not survive by selling a relatively high cost product to a small number of people- they needed to be able to sell a lower cost product to a larger number of people.


That makes no difference regarding if you went from low to high end or high to lowend. The point is acknowledging that there are tiers of users.. Some content on "going back to their roots".. or going back to living with mom for all I care, and others that want LW to grow with the industry... i.e, streamlined interface like the lux boys and/or a rewrite like the Alias folks (oh excuse me.. autodesk... man that takes getting used to...)




As faulknermano points out, it's one thing to take an existing technology and subdivide it for marketing reasons- it's quite another to set about creating that technology in the first place.

...and i want NT to set out and creat..heck, steal if necessary, those technologies. And I, as well as others, are willing to pay more for it to get them NOW, not two or three years from now.

But no, go on and keep being argumentative and adding your own conjecture to what was originally a simple point: Folks would pay extra to get advanced features NOW if thats what it took.

Its like talking to children here sometimes....

colkai
01-07-2006, 10:06 AM
And Newtek would get the funding for such activities where?
So they are to hire a whole new batch of people, accquire technologies they currently do not have, spend some time developing a system considerably more advanced than they currently have. However, they have to do this within their current budget limitations?

So given that, the only ay they could do this, is by ceasing to invest said money in their existing products. Unless of course you know some very clever trick of doubling ot tripling your workload and staff level *without* having to pay for it. Then again, maybe you think people would be willing to pay upfront for the possibility of a whizz-bang Extreme edition of Lightwave without the development plans being drawn up yet? No? Imagine that!

Really, talk about needing to get a grip on reality
It's like talking to children here sometimes.

archiea
01-07-2006, 10:43 AM
And Newtek would get the funding for such activities where?
So they are to hire a whole new batch of people, accquire technologies they currently do not have, spend some time developing a system considerably more advanced than they currently have. However, they have to do this within their current budget limitations?


...By charging more for the extreme version, as they do for Adobe CS, Maya unlimited, XSI, Digital Fusion, the future Final Cut Pro extreme, etc. Jeez, haven't you read what I posted above: That some of us would pay more to get those extra advanced features now, not two or three years for now, paying for x.5 versions, etc... Folk here seem to like how many freebies NT hands out without caring how far behind LW has fallen. you get what you pay for....




So given that, the only ay they could do this, is by ceasing to invest said money in their existing products. Unless of course you know some very clever trick of doubling ot tripling your workload and staff level *without* having to pay for it. Then again, maybe you think people would be willing to pay upfront for the possibility of a whizz-bang Extreme edition of Lightwave without the development plans being drawn up yet? No? Imagine that!

Really, talk about needing to get a grip on reality
It's like talking to children here sometimes.

Like any other company, they invest. How do you think Modo got off the ground without selling one product? investors. Look at what NT does now: they charge your for the next version of LW months before it comes out. Sure they sweeten the deal with some free software, but make no mistake, you are paying for you copy of LW months in advanced. I don't have a problem with this as its totaly my choice, as it would be to pre-pay more for an advanced version.

Can't wait to see how you twist that one into an impossibility, Slick.....

colkai
01-07-2006, 11:18 AM
...By charging more for the extreme version, as they do for Adobe CS, Maya unlimited, XSI, Digital Fusion, the future Final Cut Pro
Again, in order to charge more, they have to have a product to sell, that product needs to be developed. What part of that concept is difficult for you to understand?


make no mistake, you are paying for you copy of LW months in advanced. I don't have a problem with this as its totaly my choice, as it would be to pre-pay more for an advanced version.

So, to get this straight, although you feel LW has fallen behind, to the point you have, as stated in previous posts, abondoned it as your primary app, you have absolutely no problem paying upfront for LW Extreme based on a suggested toolset? Even though, as your opinion is that Newtek have not been able to deliver high end facilities in the past?
I would also say, it is a huge fallacy that simply throwing money at a problem will fix it. As to Modo, let's not forget huge chunks of that code were from LW and that translates pretty heavily in terms of development costs and time.


Can't wait to see how you twist that one into an impossibility, Slick.....

Statements like this are one of the reasons I normally avoid getting into threads like this in the first place. Serves me right I guess, ahh me, well, this'll be my last time of bashing my head against this particular brick wall anyways.

Wonderpup
01-07-2006, 11:23 AM
archiea,

I don't think you'd get many takers for a preorder deal with an ETA two years down the line.

The only realistic way to fund a Lightwave extreme would be to bite the bullet, split the current offering, and put the best of 9 into the higher priced version- after all, it's safe to assume that 9 will be state of the art Lightwave, so in that sense it is Lightwave extreme.

But I think you intuitively know that the user base would find this a very hard sell indeed, and however Newtek tried to package it, I think most people would feel somehow that they had been shafted.

hrgiger
01-07-2006, 01:16 PM
It's too bad that we have to waste time arguing about whether Lightwave should be split into basic and advanced. I'm currently in communication with older self in the year 2039, and he(I) just let me know via some weird sunspot activity and a ham radio that it never happens. I believe him(me) because I wouldn't lie to myself.

Zafar Iqbal
01-07-2006, 03:16 PM
I'm totally against a LW with even more plug-ins packed into it. I would rather pay more to have the current toolset and features work well and communicate with eachother proberly rather than license a plug-in bundle.

cresshead
01-07-2006, 05:21 PM
:screwy: what's the point?

currently lightwave 8.5 has a good toolset, maybe not all of it is the bleeding edge of thech right now but the tools DO work...as demonstrated in firefly, jimmy neutron, star trek and the huge amount of older tv shows and feature films......even a few games [doom 3, burnout and serious same]

for me.....ANY new version of lightwave be it hi end 'extreeme' or whatever needs to add.........

1.unified workspace [which i hear IS cming in lw9.0]
2.modeling tools in layout [which i hear IS cming in lw9.0]
3.customisable user interface so that an artist can work the way HE/SHE wants to.....
4.Better/faster renderer [which should surface due to the new talent from elecric image renderer]

5.Fur/Hair.......we need this to stay the same as 3dsmax, cinema4d, truspace and hash animation master.
6.a preset biped rigger IN lightwave that can work with ease.....wouldn't it be nice to get a similar bone system to messiah???and some sort of max style biped or xsi style biped guide rig into lw to help keep it SIMPLE to rig up a human form in lightwave?
7.tools/models/renderer that WORK with Zbrush [ive heard that's in the pipe for lw9.0
8.ngons......they ARE coming in 9.0.........
9.updated motion mixer that's as capable as the mixer in xsi or the workbanch in 3dsmax.
10.a vector renderer to output to ai and swf seeing as max, cinema and xsi DO NOT do this..this could be a good growth market segment and also be used for cartoon work as well as flash based web work....

.......so most of these ARE on their way anyhow.............main thing lightwave NEEDS is MARKETING and TARGETING that marketing into KEY zones that they think they can make good headway in with won't be FILM or GAMES but other markets such as TV, PRINT,WEB and achitecture pre viz and product pre viz.

Maxx
01-07-2006, 05:42 PM
10.a vector renderer to output to ai and swf seeing as max, cinema and xsi DO NOT do this..this could be a good growth market segment and also be used for cartoon work as well as flash based web work....

cresshead, it's not that I disagree with the rest of your post, it's just that this is the largest dead horse in my stable that I still occassionally like to pummel thoroughly with a knobby stick.

LW - I think - needs to have a vector renderer. For the money, LW has the most complete toolset on the market. Granted, it is lacking in areas, but obviously good work is done with it. I would love to be able to use LW to do Flash animations for my web work without having to use Flash's Trace Bitmap (which often results in larger file sizes or craptastic traces) or Streamline (see previous parenthetical). I realize that there are plug-ins available, but Swift isn't financially viable for my small company (read: just me!) and Flicker is - I think - dead.

By adding a native vector renderer, NewTek really could bust into web development and design markets with its' price alone - I mean seriously, LW non-upgrade is cheaper than MacroAdobe Studio non-upgrade, and the LW upgrade is only slightly more expensive than the Studio upgrade. IMO, any web designer looking to expand their toolset and client base would break their necks to run to LW for an additional sales point if it included a vector render. As it is, if a web designer wants to add 3D to their offering, they've got to go with a more expensive option to get the vector render, either by purchasing another 3D package with vector render built in or by purchasing LW plus a vector renderer. It's just that it doesn't make much sense monitarily for smaller companies. Sure, 2Advanced can afford to do it. But I know that my company can't.

And when it boils down to it, I am the most important thing in the universe :D ... OK. Rant over.

cresshead
01-07-2006, 05:49 PM
:agree:

if lightwave 9.0 has a vector [ai and swf] render built in then it would LEAD rather than follow for a change!

the only other 3d app that has a vector renderer is maya....and that's quite a bit more expensive than lightwave, xsi foundation/xsi essentials or cinema4d which are the main competition...even 3dsmax doesn't have a vector renderer...

would be a SMART move from newtek if they had a GOOD quality swf/ai renderer....

AbnRanger
01-07-2006, 06:01 PM
:foreheads Rainman, listen, the point is for NT to hire MORE people to AUGMENT LW development. i.e. keep the current team to do the standard edition and hire more folks to work on the advanced stuff... Then perhaps get additional folks to work on the integration of the new material or even just to streamline LW in general.
:lol: I laughed so hard, it turned into coughing....does the word "Wapner" ring a bell?
I don't get the "Haves" and "Have Nots" arguement...cause it sounds like that's all there is too it...arguement for arguement's sake.

Wonderpup
01-08-2006, 10:12 AM
When Modo first appeared a lot of people were really angry about it because they felt, rightly or wrongly, that Modo was, in effect, Lightwave 8's modeler as it should, and would, have been.

At whatever point Newtek decided to split Lightwave those who could not afford the advanced version would be really angry because they would feel, rightly or wrongly, that the features in the advanced version could and should have been available to them also, had the funds they had contributed to newtek not been funneled to the benifit of the the few and not the many.

I'm not saying this is a rational response, but the example of Modo show us that this would be the case. That is what I mean by Have's and have nots.

As I have already pointed out, in the long run this would not matter, as it would come to seem normal that Lightwave was a two tiered app, but in the short run there would be a lot of unhappy users. That's the point I was making.

archiea
01-08-2006, 06:25 PM
At whatever point Newtek decided to split Lightwave those who could not afford the advanced version would be really angry because they would feel, rightly or wrongly, that the features in the advanced version could and should have been available to them also, had the funds they had contributed to newtek not been funneled to the benifit of the the few and not the many.



And why is it that users from every other app that has a tier system doesn't feel this way? Any speculationa s to why Lightwave users are isolated to feeling this way about a tiered product line?

wha wha wha....

Wonderpup
01-09-2006, 03:51 AM
Because in the case of other apps the split has either been from the top down or was always in place. You are suggesting a scenario where the majority of the user base would, at a given point in time, be suddenly presented with the fact that they would be sidelined in the development process- with their version of the app being transfomed into the lesser of a two tier structure.

It doesn't require much imagination to appreciate that for many people this scenario is not very appealing.

Nitisara
01-09-2006, 04:20 AM
It doesn't require much imagination to appreciate that for many people this scenario is not very appealing.
Splitting software into different classes (basic, advanced and so on) is not intended to offend anyone, moreover its main purpose is to satisfy users at most extent. Why?
Because the main idea is to supply users the desired tools at proper price. If somebody (or workseat in a studio) needs only modeling tools, it may be better to purchase basic version at reduced price instead of bying full version with tools which will never be used. For large studios it can be moneysave.
For small studios or single freelancers situation can be different. As I can suppose, LW users mainly belong to freelancers or small studios workers. This means that most of them need everything or almost everything from LW power.
I am sure that as soon as LW will become software of mass use, including use in big studios with hundreds of people engaged, most probably this question of splitting software into different packages will become actual.
That is my first point.
The second point is that it is not necessary that LW will jump in price for advanced version in the case of its splitting. Most probably, its reduced versions will cost less than its current price, because currently LW is already self-sufficient package. So, more will be taken away from it - less it will cost.
And the third point (maybe the main and most vague) - is that someone can be bothering that it is necessary to increase LW price to get more funds to afford more advanced tools for LW. This is very argueable point, and no dispute will ever affect this situation, because only NewTek management knows their way of development and of making business. All our arguments will be useless in this regard.

with respect to everyone,
Nitisara

bobakabob
01-09-2006, 11:15 AM
Remember INSPIRE based on LW 5.5, a stripped down version of Lightwave?

It had very good reviews at the time but presumably if it had sold well it would still be in existence.

IMO a tiered system would be a messy mistake and I can't really see Newtek being interested - they have enough on their hands promoting a good single 3D app in an already overcrowded marketplace.

Lightwave has always had a niche as an out of the box "bang for bucks" 3D solution. That's precisely why its overpriced competitors have tried to destroy it with cut price "Lite" versions.

It's undoubtedly a tough marketplace for 3D apps. Newtek should keep building on their original vision and confidently define their own market like they did in the glory days of the 90s.

I for one am grateful to Newtek for making 3D accessible. Ten years back, a ticket to the moon would have been cheaper than buying Softimage 8~

archiea
01-10-2006, 01:56 PM
Because in the case of other apps the split has either been from the top down or was always in place. You are suggesting a scenario where the majority of the user base would, at a given point in time, be suddenly presented with the fact that they would be sidelined in the development process- with their version of the app being transfomed into the lesser of a two tier structure.

It doesn't require much imagination to appreciate that for many people this scenario is not very appealing.

compared to the fact that it requires NO imagination that users of other tierd apps are happy... because all you have to do is just look at the facts instead of the conjecture here.

archiea
01-10-2006, 02:20 PM
Remember INSPIRE based on LW 5.5, a stripped down version of Lightwave?

It had very good reviews at the time but presumably if it had sold well it would still be in existence.


I started my mac LW license with Inspire... it allowed me to stick my toe into the mac 3D waters without forking over allof the dough for the full LW. Later I was able to upgrade to LW full for less thant the difference in price. Again, I can't see a disadvantage to me using inspire compared to other Lw users who could afford the full LW. I didn't think of them as elitist or myself as neglected.

BTW, you can't gauge inspires success as now one can't even get a demo copy of LW easily.

Besides, the idea isn;t for NT to make a stripped down version of LW. I say keep thecurrent as standard and offer now what we would have had two years down the road as a pro edition.



IMO a tiered system would be a messy mistake and I can't really see Newtek being interested - they have enough on their hands promoting a good single 3D app in an already overcrowded marketplace.


Meanwhile other companies offer tierd products BECAUSE of the overcrowded marketplace: its a better chance to penetrate the market at different price poitns and market targets.



Lightwave has always had a niche as an out of the box "bang for bucks" 3D solution. That's precisely why its overpriced competitors have tried to destroy it with cut price "Lite" versions.


No destory... compete. Alias price reduction of Maya got my toe into that app. If I had the time I would have taken advantage of the houdini and XSI offers.



It's undoubtedly a tough marketplace for 3D apps. Newtek should keep building on their original vision and confidently define their own market like they did in the glory days of the 90s.


Like a shoe salesman trying to relive his victory days in college football.

Again this is my fear that this community is made up of nostalgic fanboys that just want to relive the past and not grow with the industy. hey don't get me wrong, i loved those old Amiga days and the early days of the toaster.. it was really a time of innovation with unique technologies and computing platforms.

But those days are long gone and what was once innovative is now a commodity. Remember needing a bank of 1000rpm seagate drives to SD editing. Now you can do it on a laptop with HDV.

For NT to stay in the past is not intrinsically the safest solution. yes, LW strength was offering as much productivity as possible in one box. As was photoshop and after effects and final cut pro. Difference is that the latter products recognized the need to offer a pro version of those strong base products... hence After effects pro, CS studio and the supposed Fincal Cut extreme.. priced for pros but with pro features NOW. Where do you think these products would be now if theyhad thought as you did?





I for one am grateful to Newtek for making 3D accessible. Ten years back, a ticket to the moon would have been cheaper than buying Softimage 8~

But today, a ticket for softimage is cheaper than LW. Thats what 10 years of progress buys you. Youhappy playing catch up or do you want to be a leader in the marketplace.

hrgiger
01-10-2006, 05:58 PM
Besides, the idea isn;t for NT to make a stripped down version of LW. I say keep thecurrent as standard and offer now what we would have had two years down the road as a pro edition.

Well, first of all, we already have a pro edition. Ask Zoic studios if Lightwave is a pro package or not. Ask CafeFx if Lightwave is a pro package. No need to wait two years although, I'm sure there will be many improvements in that time that will keep, if not pass, certain industry standards now that the restucturing of Lightwave's old codebase is near complete.


Meanwhile other companies offer tierd products BECAUSE of the overcrowded marketplace: its a better chance to penetrate the market at different price poitns and market targets.

Well, to put it more accurately, the market most likely made it unfavorable for apps like XSI and Maya to sell a couple CD's and a manual for over $6,000 and they realized the only way to keep sales moving signifcantly was to enter the broader market of affordable applications for non-large studio budgets.
You keep stating that nobody who uses these tiered apps feel any unhappiness about owing the non-pro version. Oh, really? It's amazing how you just automatically know how these people feel. You would be naive to think that any of those users would buy the lower priced version if they could afford the higher priced version. Nobody would buy a Saturn if Lamborghini's sold for the same price (I know how you like dumb car analogies) And even if these people didn't feel they needed the features that come in a "pro" version, they would want it if money weren't an issue. If you think people, in general, settle for just what they need and be content, you don't know human nature.



For NT to stay in the past is not intrinsically the safest solution. yes, LW strength was offering as much productivity as possible in one box. As was photoshop and after effects and final cut pro. Difference is that the latter products recognized the need to offer a pro version of those strong base products... hence After effects pro, CS studio and the supposed Fincal Cut extreme.. priced for pros but with pro features NOW. Where do you think these products would be now if theyhad thought as you did?

Just because Newtek doesn't make a tiered product, doesn't mean they're staying in the past. The other apps may have needed, or wanted, to make a seperate version, I don't really think you've shown the need for Lightwave to do the same.(and just because everyone else is doing it isn't a good reason) It is one of the most affordable 3D apps out there and is a production ready tool right out of the box and development is continuing on bringing in industry standard tools. It's not going anywhere anytime soon. It doesn't have to best every package out there to be a successful piece of software.


But today, a ticket for softimage is cheaper than LW.

Really? How many render nodes do you get with that? Two? How many come with Lightwave? Oh yeah, more then you'll ever use. No 64 bit version either...

AbnRanger
01-10-2006, 06:27 PM
Admit it, HR and Wonder pup...If LW was already a 2-tiered program, and some users wanted them to unify into one package....you'd be arguing to LEAVE IT AS IS.

The tangible benefits of an Advanced version would be:
1) Broader reach into the market (not just the Budget segment)
2) Budget-minded users (like myself and others) would have in ONE BOX....ONE INSTALL...with only ONE SUPPORT team to contact, some of the BEST available 3rd party tools AT A MUCH REDUCED PRICE than buying them separately....similar to the Vue 5 deal (not quite that reduced, though). Whether they choose standard or advanced, they STILL get an awesome deal. Nobody gets cheated!
3) Lightwave would have far greater appeal to Universities and Colleges adopting new Multimedia/Animation programs. As the Industry grows, so does the number of schools teaching the trade. They will teach with commonly considered INDUSTRY STANDARD tools with the most complete toolset. They ARE NOT going to buy plugins separately and they are NOT going to consider BUDGET software. With the current approach, LW will only decline in number of institutions...when their goal should be to GAIN a larger footprint.

The tangible benefits for leaving LW exclusively in the Budget category with only one version
1) Don't have to do anything different...Status Quo.

Enough of this "upper class vs the lower class" arguement. It's flat out silly, and makes as much sense as smelling the color 5. :D

hrgiger
01-10-2006, 06:40 PM
Admit it, HR and Wonder pup...If LW was already a 2-tiered program, and some users wanted them to unify into one package....you'd be arguing to LEAVE IT AS IS.

Well, as soon as you come back from la la land aka the land of pointless speculation, we'll be here to discuss it.

colkai
01-11-2006, 03:18 AM
I said I wasn't gonna bother with this anymore, but can I point out one thing.
A point already made, but very carefully evaded.
Other tiered systems had the top end package then lower end versions were created from this. Net result, those ALREADY using the package were not cheated and it allowed people without the money to buy the big toys to get into the package.

Now, with Lightwave, it would be the other way around. A fact carefully steered around by certain people here.
Net result, current users would suddenly find themselves with the "cheap" version, lacking certain features they were hoping to get, which all of a sudden, your asked to pay for. This is a fundemental difference and one that would get many folks blood boiling, mine included.

This is exactly what happened with MotionBuilder, and let me tell you, it caused a real stink amongst users. Features that were available in one version, were suddenly shifted to the "high-end" pro version, what was a signle level package, became two and people were NOT happy.

Also, the concept of the 'std' version getting high end features 2 years down the line.. say WHAT? so, you expect maybe 2 years down the line, the basic XSI will suddenly get the features from the mid-priced / high-priced version? I don't think so! Those features will contniue to be expanded on in the upper price version, but do NOT kid yourself, they are not going to suddenly include them free in a lower price version when they can, and have previously, charged for them.

Now, should LW produce a lower-specd version - that's fine and dandy, people learned with Inspire, but no-one using the FULL LW got shafted.

What folks are suggesting here is guaranteed to alienate a lot of current LW users, now seeing as certain folks love to point out how people are leaving LW, it would be like Newtek shooting themselves in the foot with a bazooka to do such a thing.

Let me once again re-iterate for the hard of reading, other systems kept the 'full' package and introduced lower-end packages. This is GOOD, this opens up the market and does not upset current users.

Wanting LW to produce lower-end system to introduce new users is GOOD, it opens up the market and does not upset current users.

Wanting LW to suddenly become the "low end" and introducing a "high end" is BAD, because all those users will, let me assure you, be royally pi**ed off to find they will no longer be on the recieving end of any high-end features unless they 'move-up'.
You will also be asking any new users to pay a reasonably large sum for a "low end" package.

(He who just knows this is gonna get quoted then steered around)

AbnRanger
01-11-2006, 10:50 AM
Colkai, nobody's evading here...I agree, in the principle, that IF LW users saw features that SHOULD be included in what would be standard level....going to the Advanced exclusively (a full Hair/Fur system for example), they would get real ticked off. I would too.
But, you and I both know this....realistically, we ain't gonna see FPrime, G2, Shave N Haircut/Sasquatch, Maestro or an Advanced Animation System w/ Crowd Behavior controllers, LWCad, etc....all bundled into LW anytime soon...and certainly not at the current asking price. Agreed? But, what's to stop them from (with LW10+) offering LW with an Advanced pack/bundle...so that, market-wise, they can contend with ALL their rivals in that arena? If those tools are bundled together in one, cost effective package, why would that offend your sensibilities? People who couldn't afford to buy all those plugins separately, could perhaps get a very tempting and sweet deal that they COULD NOT GET OTHERWISE.
In order to keep from alienating LW users (even though they are simply giving you more choices), Newtek would have to continue making an HONEST effort to continue improving LW (standard) at the same level it is currently, and not allow it to become a "Photoshop Elements"-type of package. Unlike their competitors, whose lower-tiered offerings are severely hamstrung, LW standard would still be a FULL and robust program...no different than it is today. In that regard they can stick it to their competitors. But the LW w/XTreme Tools/Bundle would merely offer users a host of tools that would not REALISTICALLY make it into LW otherwise...and which many users might not be able to afford otherwise.

pauland
01-11-2006, 11:30 AM
This thread is like people talking about "my religion is the right one and yours sucks".

Software is about product. Products cost money to make. If you pay $X for a product with YZ in it, you might naturally expect to pay $X+ for a product that has YZ and AB in it. There's no sense that those paying $X should be annoyed that some people paying $X+ are getting something (AB) that should be provided as part of the $X package. In a free market, if you want AB you shell out $X+ for it.

I'd be happy to see a LW extreme product - not just as a bundle of plugins, but some core newtek development that might be missing at the moment. I currently have LW8.5 and am short on funds for the upgrade this time around. It wouldn't bother me at all if there were an enhanced LW, even if I couldn't afford it.

Ultimately LW has to compete in it's market against other competitors. Having a lower price may mean that it's difficullt to generate the $s for high-end features. You can have really talented people at a company and they can buck a trend in talent versus $s spent, but they can only do that to a limited extent. Eventually you have to have that income to support more sophisticated development and marketing. If you are earning less per sale than your rivals, you need to sell a lot more or raise your prices (and feature set) to compete.

To make an analogy, if I buy a car and later a newer improved model comes out for greater expense (it has satnav, DVD player, Xbox, better engine etc). I won't be upset about it. I have a choice to buy the improved model and I can spend my money or stick with what I have. The most important thing is that with my budget I can afford a car. If people want to buy the improved car then let them. It won't make my car any worse.

Paul

cresshead
01-11-2006, 01:56 PM
bottom line?

if you wnat lightwave to be maya or 3ds max...best route is to save up n get maya or max...!

lightwave IS lightwave...quirks, amazing fun to use, annoying sometimes...but..


it does deliver the goods in a timely manner for nr all users...even those who also have 3dsmax [me]

i like it! :lwicon: :D :hey: :thumbsup: :newtek:

great company...
nice app
fun to use...

nice results.

Intuition
01-11-2006, 02:52 PM
Don't mean to throw a wrench into the gears but I have to ask....

Lets put this in a hypothetical future.

Say that Lightwave 9 or 10 was the hands down best 3d app when it is released.

Has all the little additions that we all ask for at different times and makes them easy to use and in a rock stable program.

-perfect z-brush implementation
-flowlines/scanline
-native sss
-updated state of teh art particle render/hypervoxel filters
-add endless list of your wishes here.

Would more people be happy if this hypothetical Lightwave had a single offering for $3000 to $4000 since it is easily the best package on the market and has the best render engine and free unlimited render nodes hence making it well worth the money?

OR...

Would the hobbiests like to have the basic software without all the bells and whistles for a lower price at which they could get the other stuff in seperate prices? Eventually by purchasing them all would equal the Extreme edition?

This would make it so even professionals could get the particular elements they needed (fluids, auto rigging system) without having to buy them all.

OR..

Do we just dictate to Newtek that they need to keep thier prices really low so they have little money and time to invest in real development time and highly qualified programmers so that Lightwave keeps having to add small things every major release just to justify holding the company up?


These could very well be the options on the table.

I like a single package idea but I also would like Newtek to have a little more free room for development. Low price packages sell greater numbers but also have less money and resources to develop as a consequence.

Just my humble opinion.

Shake or stir at will.... :devil:

pauland
01-11-2006, 03:45 PM
Intuition, I think you've summed up the situation Newtek is in - a split userbase of hobbyists/one man bands where price is important and larger users/successful professionals where price isn't so much of an issue but features/workflow are.

Whataever happens, thank goodness LW has been around for people like me (the hobbyist), but I suspect my ability to purchase is dependent on newtek keeping those users where price is less of an issue.

Paul

cresshead
01-11-2006, 03:56 PM
what you listed sounds like what avid offer with foundation, essentials and advanced.

just because lightwave is a 3d app doesn't mean it should copy other 3d apps and how they do business....

matter of fact, newtek's lack of towing the line, re treating their customer's like what avid/autodesk and maxon do are the MAIN reasons i chose lightwave as my second aquisition of a full on 3d app....rather than xsi, maya and cinema4d

maybe avid/autodesk and maxon should takre a leaf out of how newtek do business?

free point upgrades
free dual versions [mac/intel in the same box]
somewhere you can actually write to/converse with the creators of the app.

.......

hrgiger
01-11-2006, 06:02 PM
OR...

Would the hobbiests like to have the basic software without all the bells and whistles for a lower price at which they could get the other stuff in seperate prices? Eventually by purchasing them all would equal the Extreme edition?

This would make it so even professionals could get the particular elements they needed (fluids, auto rigging system) without having to buy them all.

OR..

Do we just dictate to Newtek that they need to keep thier prices really low so they have little money and time to invest in real development time and highly qualified programmers so that Lightwave keeps having to add small things every major release just to justify holding the company up?




OR...

Does Newtek continue to bring us high quality tools at an affordable price as they have been doing for years. Yeah probably....

Intuition
01-11-2006, 07:11 PM
I do expect they will do so HRGiger. :agree:

But I often wonder about the possible limitations of a low cost product.

ON the other hand Blender is free and does a real nice job of many different kinds of effects.

Of course the situation there is the open source style programming.

I don't have doubts in Newtek. I am a Newtek gusher. :lwicon: :D :lwicon:

Just speculating on the possibilities is all.

archiea
01-11-2006, 07:18 PM
OR...

Does Newtek continue to bring us high quality tools at an affordable price as they have been doing for years. Yeah probably....


..but without features and integration that many here want in a timely fashion, and are willing to pay for if offered sooner in an extreme version..

Some features are even features as much as they are necessities... look at mac support. Still not in xcode while a competitor is all over the apple's pages regarding the new mac intel's benchmarks, i.e. not just in xcode but already universal binary. How long is newtek going to take with that. Yes chuck detailed as to the reason why and it was appreciated. The market, however, is not as forgiving....

From what many here have suggested regarding the tiered approach, newtek would still offer high quality tools as they always have for $795. In addition they would offer cutting edge tools that are just not doable in a $795 app for those who are willing to pay for. At the risk of sounding like a broken record, where is the harm in that?

archiea
01-11-2006, 07:42 PM
I do expect they will do so HRGiger. :agree:

But I often wonder about the possible limitations of a low cost product.

ON the other hand Blender is free and does a real nice job of many different kinds of effects.

Of course the situation there is the open source style programming.

I don't have doubts in Newtek. I am a Newtek gusher. :lwicon: :D :lwicon:

Just speculating on the possibilities is all.

thanks intuition.

You offered a rational obervation that is refreshing. :thumbsup:

Yes a low cost product widens the market share, but often its for products that were priced for the highend (5-10K) already, and who maintain that highend tier while offering a low end tier, i.e. $999 ->2K. The result is that the high end app is driving the high end features and that technology gets trickled down to the low end version.

Newtek's lower price will widen the market share... (although making LW more available at schools and a downloadable demo copy also helps expand the market share), but I wonder how much that would help accelerate LW's development.
I think the new price point brings in more hobbyist and does little to expand LW's growth in the cutting edge area, IMHO. This "return to its roots" suggests that NT wants to make LW more streamlined and less cluttered, and open up more accessability to features. My fear is that its indicative of a more closed and introvertive mindset, and of wanting to relive the glory days... ones that no longer exist.

Another price point example is this: I would have paid for x.5 versions of LW if the trade off would have been:
1) Modern open GL support
2) Prompt Xcode conversion of the mac version last year
3) a universal binary version of LW 8.5 available now for the mac community, or at least with the 9 release.

Instead we wait and wait and wait...

You get what your pay for....