PDA

View Full Version : I just received an email



awrieger
12-01-2005, 12:41 AM
from the local distributor here for Newtek.

They have extended the Vue/LW8 (free upgrade to 9) bundle offer to Dec 31.

So there you go. Read into that what you will!

Trilobyte
12-01-2005, 01:22 AM
Lightwave 9 go to next year.

Wonderpup
12-01-2005, 09:13 AM
I got a mail from E-on saying the same thing.

I kind of expect 9 to be late, but Newtek seem to hit this time of year around christmas with their new releases lately, and it's the time of year that the latent kid in us all is the strongest- so the disappointment is made worse, I think.

mattclary
12-01-2005, 09:52 AM
They have extended the Vue/LW8 (free upgrade to 9) bundle offer to Dec 31.

So there you go. Read into that what you will!

NewTek said LW9 will ship 4th quarter. NewTek has said the Vue deal will last until LW9 ships. 4th quarter ends Dec 31.

So what's your point?

hunter
12-01-2005, 04:56 PM
Point is they're usually L8. Not tryin' to pick a fight but a facts a fact. Look at the 8 delivery.

RedBull
12-01-2005, 06:04 PM
I agree they're usually late..... And have been ALWAYS....

Which is why i really hope they make it on time.....
Or announce it as a late arrival now...

If NT delay the LW9 release and don't tell us until the 11th hour is unforgiveable.... I.e if i here some bull**** story, about how a last minute bug as caused the delay of LW9...... I will be an unhappy camper...

NT would know well in advance (before now) if LW9 was not going to make it this quarter.... If they get to December 24th or December 31st....
And say that.... It's a plain untruth......

Truth is, they would of known for months if it was on or behind schedule,
and if they don't tell us, it's very bad business practices...
(which they have done numerous times, i hope they have learnt)

My distributor went to NT in Texas last month to meet Jay Roth...
And he assures me that Jay assured him it's still on schedule for a 4th quarter release...Considering the preorder debacle of LW8.....

I sincerely hope NT have learnt to respect, that many customers have paid
and are awaiting a Christmas present...... If Santa just doesn't show up....
I will make it a real purpose to Rubbish NT's name on every forum i can find.

Sorry but Screw me once, shame on me...... Screw me twice, shame on YOU!
I'm a real nice guy, until i'm not!

So i for one am reading that post, as it still will ship this year!

NT have stuffed up with assuring customers of specific release dates
too often, if they can't keep promises don't make them! (specifically dates)
hmmmmphh! :)

UnCommonGrafx
12-01-2005, 06:20 PM
Though the presumption sounds right, I sure hope it's not as I had two weeks of fun lined up for the end of the year. :dance: :confused:

Sounds to me like e-on may have liked the deal and would like a few more people to sign up in preparation for their $500.00 Fusion app. Alas, that's my positive spin on it.

inquisitive
12-01-2005, 06:59 PM
it was probably just an announcement to drum up more biz

I personally like that VUE program, pretty cool and yes i did upgrade to LW9

Verlon
12-01-2005, 09:15 PM
Well, December 31 IS in Q4, so that would still apply.

That thread about LW9 content makes it sound like they are closer to ready than that.

ted
12-01-2005, 10:45 PM
Just a question, informal survey.

Would you rather have LW9 out on time with several bugs, or delayed a couple months with very few bugs?

I ask this because EVERY software company has dealt with this. People [email protected]%ing and moaning about missed target dates, "I want it now", and people [email protected]%ing and moaning about bugs in the first release, "How could this get out"?

Often, it's the same people on both sides. :cursin:

It's a tough position to be in and I can understand both sides. But... sometimes the hostility, especially before hand, makes me wonder which is the best option for a company to deal with.

What's your thought? No right or wrong, but you can only pick one.

RedBull
12-01-2005, 11:12 PM
I'd take LW9 with Bugs, than be told that a last minute bug has caused a delay....

LW9 being a largish new upgrade, is going to be full of bugs regardless...
It's just not possible to get them all in Beta, without a full demographic
release.... (Was LW8 bug free after all the delays?) **** 8.5 still has enough bugs, so bugs are no excuse.

People shouldn't complain about bugs with the 9 release....
Stick to 8.3/8.5 until LW9 is up to LW9.x anyway......
Early adopters of new technology, should get stung... (and i'm quite happy too) with this particular release....

Generally with a .5 or .1 release i'd be happy to wait.....

But iv'e paid, they promised.... It's the 2nd day of summer
and 40degree celsius is going to kill me.... I need new toys for Christmas this year. And i have new 64bit machines coming in 2 weeks......

It's more a question of respect!

It's 23 days to Christmas..... If Santa isn't coming.... Tell me TODAY.
Not on Christmas eve, because that's not acceptable.
So i can make plans to get my LW9 money back, and buy a swimming pool! :)

Anyway, i'm assured it's coming...... But last time Santa lied.....
Well lets just say, Rudolphs nose wasn't the only thing that was left red.
(wipes childhood tears from forehead) sniff, sniff....

I'm quite looking forward to the LW9 release, it has features i could really use today....

doimus
12-02-2005, 01:58 AM
Did anybody actually believe NT when they announced LW9 for Q4 2005 back at the Siggraph?
Don't know about you but to me that reads like - March 2006, and I consider myself an optimistic person. :D

After all, remember that LW8 upgrade story?

SaturnX
12-02-2005, 03:08 AM
Would you rather have LW9 out on time with several bugs, or delayed a couple months with very few bugs?

Get LW9 now... (YEAH!) and await the 'inevitable' lw9.01 bug fix in Jan 06.
Sorted.

I dont mind minor bugs (most times)... they are normal these days. So are the immediate .xx patches that follow.

mattclary
12-02-2005, 06:23 AM
Every piece of software ships with bugs. Every piece of software ships with bugs that are known by the developer.

No developer will stop ship a piece of software until all bugs are gone, it's not possible. What WILL get a stop ship is a CRITICAL bug. If NewTek doesn't ship this quarter, odds are, you don't want to use the product.

Do you REALLY want to irreparably corrupt that Super Star Destroyer you spent six months working on because NewTek is more interested in ship dates than product quality?

krimpr
12-02-2005, 07:16 AM
I own a small automation design build company specializing in manufacturing custom automotive production machinery. If a customer is expecting delivery on the 23rd of a given month you DO NOT tell them on the 22nd that it won't happen because of "unresolved issues". If you don't know by the 10th that you've got problems you've dropped the ball and that is the time to inform the customer, as unpleasant as that is. Likewise if a supplier tells me that I will receive a drive or controls on a given day I don't expect to be sticking my head out the door every twenty minutes looking for a truck only to get a call informing me that it won't be until early next week because of unexpected problems. Obviously someone, somewhere knew before now that my order would be delayed. I won't likely use that supplier again, nor will my customer use me again if I'm not smart enough to keep them in the loop. I learned that the hard way. Luckily for me I'm a Lightwave putzer, not a professional graphics guy. Nevertheless, the time off I've decided to take has been slotted to putz with LW9, and if it's not coming Q4 then Newtek would know it by now and I would like to be told that. It's not too late to schedule a ski trip or something....

nthused
12-02-2005, 08:16 AM
But iv'e paid, they promised.... It's the 2nd day of summer
and 40degree celsius is going to kill me.... I need new toys for Christmas this

It's TOOLS man, not toys...we cannot get a tax write-off for toys :D

ted
12-02-2005, 10:11 AM
As far as the survey, I agree with Matt. No software can be totally Bug free for every configuration and situation, but if NewTek feels it shouldn't be released, you probably don't want to work with it.
The temperment of those complaining is exactly why NewTek hates to mention anything until it ships. But then people complain that they are too tight lipped.
Ya can't win!

Maybe you should wait until the deadline is missed before you start getting your feathers ruffled!
I say this toung in cheek. Smile and have a good day! :)

mattclary
12-02-2005, 10:48 AM
The temperment of those complaining is exactly why NewTek hates to mention anything until it ships. But then people complain that they are too tight lipped.
Ya can't win!

Exactly!


.................................

RedBull
12-02-2005, 02:08 PM
The temperment of those complaining is exactly why NewTek hates to mention anything until it ships

I don't see anyone complaining, i would expect an absolute avalanche of complaints if it's does not arrive on time or with sufficent explanation.
I do see so many NT fanboys, who will praise any mistake this company will make.

LW6, LW7, LW8....
NT have made sure they specified the exact 4th quarter shipping date
on every release... And have never made it in the 4th quarter...
And just about every point release, has been late too..

Which is exactly why NT should never specify an exact shipping date,
it's software.... It's hard to predict when it's done.....
Hence the reason i keep getting pissed, at NT incorrectly predicting dates...
I coudn't complain if i was told sometime this year or next....

The 11th hour announcement is the only problem i have......
NT should of made customers aware of LW8's lateness, well before they did.

As i've arranged new machines, and time for LW9 to be here in the 4th quarter.... And so far i'm told it's on schedule (like i was told for LW8)
Which was nowhere near NT's expected ship date..
Sorry, buy NT have made that mistake far too many times..
So i hope it's not a repeated mistake..... Thats all.

Or do you guys wanna praise them for it?
Luxology, seem to of made the same mistake this time around too....

Anyway i only mention it, cause you watch these forums explode, if Dec31st
comes without LW9..... People will start counting down soon!



It's TOOLS man not toys...we cannot get a tax write-off for toys

Nah, for LW9 it will be a toy..... LW8.x will still be my tools.....
I'm not silly enough to put a new toy in the production tool, category... (yet)
As for tax..... Hmmmm i'm not sure if a swimming pool, is a taxable write-off...
But it should be! :D

If LW9's late...... a plastic wading pool from Toy'r'us would be a sweeet replacement...... 40 degrees people...... That's over 100 degrees F in your scale..... Arrrgggghhhhh, I'm melting, i'm melting.............

Verlon
12-02-2005, 02:17 PM
People complaining on the internet? Say it isn't so!

I feel that pain. I swear you can find people on the internet who hate ANYTHING. I mean there are 17 year old boys who hate SEX if you look for them.

Earl
12-02-2005, 03:14 PM
LW6, LW7, LW8....
NT have made sure they specified the exact 4th quarter shipping date
on every release... And have never made it in the 4th quarter...
And just about every point release, has been late too..

Nope, I'm afraid you're wrong. NewTek announced LW7 at SIGGRAPH 2001, and shipped it immediately. There was no delay and no late projections, since they kept it under the lid. Of course, there were plenty of people who complained because they had recently bought 6.5 and thus felt they had no advanced warning that a new version was coming out.

Chuck
12-02-2005, 03:16 PM
I don't see anyone complaining, i would expect an absolute avalanche of complaints if it's does not arrive on time or with sufficent explanation.
I do see so many NT fanboys, who will praise any mistake this company will make.

LW6, LW7, LW8....
NT have made sure they specified the exact 4th quarter shipping date
on every release... And have never made it in the 4th quarter...
And just about every point release, has been late too..

Which is exactly why NT should never specify an exact shipping date,
it's software.... It's hard to predict when it's done.....
Hence the reason i keep getting pissed, at NT incorrectly predicting dates...
I coudn't complain if i was told sometime this year or next....

The 11th hour announcement is the only problem i have......
NT should of made customers aware of LW8's lateness, well before they did.

As i've arranged new machines, and time for LW9 to be here in the 4th quarter.... And so far i'm told it's on schedule (like i was told for LW8)
Which was nowhere near NT's expected ship date..
Sorry, buy NT have made that mistake far too many times..
So i hope it's not a repeated mistake..... Thats all.

Or do you guys wanna praise them for it?
Luxology, seem to of made the same mistake this time around too....

Anyway i only mention it, cause you watch these forums explode, if Dec31st
comes without LW9..... People will start counting down soon!



Nah, for LW9 it will be a toy..... LW8.x will still be my tools.....
I'm not silly enough to put a new toy in the production tool, category... (yet)
As for tax..... Hmmmm i'm not sure if a swimming pool, is a taxable write-off...
But it should be! :D

If LW9's late...... a plastic wading pool from Toy'r'us would be a sweeet replacement...... 40 degrees people...... That's over 100 degrees F in your scale..... Arrrgggghhhhh, I'm melting, i'm melting.............

Estimating a quarter in which we might ship does not seem to me to be anywhere close to the concept of "specifying the exact shipping date." Yes, we understand that it is aggravating to some that our estimates seem routinely to be over-optimistic. We're trying to do better, but we'll just have to see whether or not we have have a handle on it yet.

Ted or Matt being pronounced NewTek "fanboys" who praise any "mistake" NewTek makes, just on the basis of the fact that they understand estimates are just estimates and therefore subject to change, very well illustrates that the "fanboy" accusation is just fiction, nothing more than rhetoric used to attempt to discredit a differing opinion when reason cannot contravene the opposing view. Both are very straightforward with us when they feel we ought to be doing something differently or better. Our estimate track record just doesn't seem to be one of their hotbutton issues, as it is for others. Please rest assured, the fact that not everyone might share the same view on an issue does not mean we won't work to resolve the issue in favor of those it does affect or who feel concerned about it. As I said, we're trying to do better on our estimates, because we'd certainly rather not frustrate any portion of the userbase, if can be managed.

monovich
12-02-2005, 03:55 PM
As far as the survey, I agree with Matt. No software can be totally Bug free for every configuration and situation, but if NewTek feels it shouldn't be released, you probably don't want to work with it.
The temperment of those complaining is exactly why NewTek hates to mention anything until it ships. But then people complain that they are too tight lipped.
Ya can't win!

Maybe you should wait until the deadline is missed before you start getting your feathers ruffled!
I say this toung in cheek. Smile and have a good day! :)

I totally agree.

AbnRanger
12-02-2005, 04:55 PM
I guess you can count me as a "Fanboy" too...there's just something about the new $795 pricetag with Vue 5 thrown in, to sweeten the deal...that pacifies me enough to wait patiently til 9 gets here.

Switching gears for a second...is there any chance of you guys in Marketing starting a modest campaign of targeting 2yr and 4yr colleges (with Visual Communications/Multimedia departments), for implementing 3D Design/Animation classes using LW? I'm chiefly referring to Institutions that DO NOT YET have such classes. Local Newtek Resellers, could perhaps be your "Point Men" in that effort.
There just seems to be too few training centers...and you don't have to try to replace a competing package to change things a little. Just go "Where they Ain't."

What say you, Chuck?

RedBull
12-02-2005, 05:46 PM
Estimating a quarter in which we might ship does not seem to me to be anywhere close to the concept of "specifying the exact shipping date." Yes, we understand that it is aggravating to some that our estimates seem routinely to be over-optimistic. We're trying to do better, but we'll just have to see whether or not we have have a handle on it yet.

I think that's my point Chuck, if the same thing happens again (and nobody says it will yet do they?) If NT doesn't let us know now that is could be delayed. I don't think NT is getting any better at all. And LW8 was late by a large margin (which is fine, as long as you let the people know, who pre-orders 12 months before that it is delayed) which NT did not in the past.
I was assured, just last week it's A-OK for decemeber release....


Ted or Matt being pronounced NewTek "fanboys" who praise any "mistake" .

Please show me, where i called either Matt or Ted a NT fanboy.....?
Perhaps try not to put words in my mouth as you have shown to of done that so badly in the past, and lost credit and respect in the process. There is a whole slew of pro NT people, who will stick by your words Chuck regardless of if your position is wrong or right..... And the fanboys term relates to a far wider ranging duo than just Matt or Ted, which ironically you named as Fanboys and not me.



NewTek makes, just on the basis of the fact that they understand estimates are just estimates and therefore subject to change, very well illustrates that the "fanboy" accusation is just fiction, nothing more than rhetoric used to attempt to discredit a differing opinion when reason cannot contravene the opposing view.

I'm really offended by that incorrect statment, Actually it is you YET again
that is trying to turn this thread to a Fanboy statment, rather than NT's responsibility to it's consumers and ironically in turn try to discredit me, for offering a differing opinion to that of NT and it's followers. (how ironic)

Honestly after the attempt you made to discredit me on several LW lists,
previously, because i was right, and you were wrong....And where you were asked to leave by the majority of LWOZ list members (but i was the one, who allowed you to stay, because i believe in differing opinions. That's an awful comment from you.... And somehow not a surprising one....


As I said, we're trying to do better on our estimates, because we'd certainly rather not frustrate any portion of the userbase, if can be managed.

Somehow with you guys, i'm really doubting it can be.....As are many others.
Don't worry, i'll retreat gracefully....(unlike some) It's not worth the effort
of offering opinions that aren't PRO-Newtek.... (obviously)
As people will just try and discredit, or even close the thread here....
How predictable.

PS.... LW7 was delivered as a surprise at Siggraph.... So i was wrong on that one indeed, my apoligies....... (see some of us can be wrong and admit it)

mattclary
12-02-2005, 05:56 PM
Please show me, where i called either Matt or Ted a NT fanboy.....?



I do see so many NT fanboys, who will praise any mistake this company will make.

If that's not where it was aimed, you should choose your phrasing more carefully. Even before I read Chuck's response, I felt it was aimed at me. Not that my feelings are hurt. I stand by everything I have said, if that makes me a "fanboy", I'll wear the badge proudly. :2guns:

RedBull
12-02-2005, 06:56 PM
Well i'm not to blame if you interperupt things incorrectly.
Especially as the Quote was from Teds message at the very least..
(nor was it meant for him)

If i wanted to call you (or anybody) a Fan Boy (for some idiodic childish reason, as Chuck suggests) i would have plain and simple I'm not backwards, about being forwards..... I call a spade a spade. (i'm unique that way)

The comments were to show i didn't expect support on this issue from the majority of fan boys.... If you consider yourself one, than thats your issue..

Quite honestly i don't see how my opinions on bugs, differed very much from yours or Teds...... My only crit here was the 11th hour problem......
Which some agreed on, and so Chuck decided to discredit me in the exact same way he accussed me of doing... (which he's done publically previously)

Sorry, i won't apoligise if you're a sensitive person who takes comments not meant for you personally, especially when taken out of context and not even in a reply to your message..... Perhaps Chuck should apoligise for putting your name into an incorrect context and not myself....

Anyway i didn't want an argument.....
Just to be made aware of changes of releases if or when they should happen.
And not well after NT knows it will.... If that's too much to ask for, well i'll choose my tools, and not my comments much more carefully in the future..

I'm glad you aren't you aren't offended.... However i'm totally disappointed
by Chucks hypocracy.

As i think what kind of big girl would take offence to such a comment anyway?
(and now iv'e realised, i'll have all the girls complaining about that comment)
Oh the humanity........

At my previous employer, if we had 6 weeks of programming or bug and issues to resolve, and had to release the software in 1 week to the Goverment.
We would do one of two things, delay the release, and tell the immediately or let them know it will be on time with a FUP (field upgrade pack) to follow.
We may even drop features, to ensure it's released on time.

Either is preferrbale to being told no problems last week, and then no comment when NT close down for Christmas and New year for example.
And the deadline passes.... This was always my point....
And others like Krimpr, would like to this simple courtesy..

I for one dont think it's much to ask...... But NT did not do this with LW8.
So maybe i'm asking too much. Regardless it wasn't worth this much effort
in typing....... Or seeing Chucks really dissappointing discredit attempt (again)

But hey maybe Modo will arrive for Christmas. ;)

Chris S. (Fez)
12-02-2005, 08:37 PM
But hey maybe Modo will arrive for Christmas. ;)

Nope, the Lux crew posted an apology on their forums. The 201 release date "slipped."

UnCommonGrafx
12-02-2005, 08:50 PM
Chuckling...

7.xxx shipped soon after with all kinds of...love in it. I bet the Lux product at that time was ... better... cuz it served a purpose.

Chuck, how ya doin'?!

RedBull
12-02-2005, 09:11 PM
Nope, the Lux crew posted an apology on their forums. The 201 release date "slipped."

Thanks Chris, i was unaware of that...

You mean they posted a genuine courteous announcement to announce it's delayed to their beloved customers..... As soon as they knew, it was not going to make the expected ETA...... Oh my god... Shock horror!
(isn't that all i asked NT to do?)

Some companies really are getting their act together then.....
It's nice to know that some companies...... Know what customer service is all about. And don't have to attack them, for sharing their views.

It's surprising just how much more i respect a company, when they keep people informed, rather than play marketing politics.

UnCommonGrafx
12-02-2005, 09:22 PM
Hmmm,
so many presumptions. Redbull, gotta ask: where did NT say the 4th qtr estimate had 'slipped'? Or is that an assumption based on the title of this thread? Or is it a presumption based on 'a feeling'?

You seem to be saying that Lux is a 'respected' company, not playing marketing politics like all the other business' out there...

Chuckling at this concept...

RedBull
12-02-2005, 10:28 PM
"We're trying to do better, but we'll just have to see whether or not we have have a handle on it yet. "

"it is aggravating to some that our estimates seem routinely to be over-optimistic"

I'm assured from people, it's on target..... But.....
Past history some comments from this thread, lack of an exact shipping date
to suppliers. No video's or demo's showing any LW9 stuff or Eye candy for upcoming release. The fact that the evelopment cycle seemed to short for me to actually make the intial delivery of all those nice features. (like LW8 did)
The fact is in another thread, NT people said the Vue5 deal will cease
to exist when LW9 ships, one day later the Vue5 deal was extended the next.

And this biggest thing of all! (and really the only important thing)

It's 40 degree heat, i have new machines coming and murphy's law would predict that Christams will be a lonely, boring and way to hot an experience
for me to have something good happen!!! ;)

And it's really that latter, that makes me believe.... (or not)

I guess the fact that no message has been posted to tell us otherwise
then i guess we presume it is on track......?
(well that's what i presumed with LW8 as well)
So i don't want to presume anything with Newtek, anymore...

Which is why i respect Lux for telling people they're siggraph ETA has slipped.
Like i said by now..... If LW9 isn't on track the team would know in advance by now.... **** you think it would be easy either way to tell you're customers if the expected product is expected to make the expected shipping date..?

NT should know if you are busy boxing up boxes full of LW9, or 3 months away from waiting for master GoldCD..... (Like Lux have stated)

For me i don't care either way if LW9 ships or not just yet......
I do care if i spend the next 3 weeks Loading Windows64 and setting up my network, new machines, software etc..... Only to be told... Nup we missed it!

"A last minute bug has caused a delay"
This is of course marketing spin and politics... (and you get it with every full or point release) is not a good way of doing business IMO.

Considering their is only 27 days left in this year, many of those days are public holidays. I think it should be quite easy to predict if they have a handle on it or not by now.

It's bad business for Newtek to have these uncertain threads popping up over the next few weeks, a simple yes or no.... Would go a really long way...

The fact that the initial poster, said.... Make of it, what you will....
You can expect more people to do this, while theirs T-minus time to LW9 and counting. Anyway..... I don't think it matters, we will just have to wait 3weeks.... And hope. Personally i'm starting to looks for small wading pools
in the ToysRus catalogue, for peice of mind.

Chris S. (Fez)
12-02-2005, 10:33 PM
I bet Lightwave 9 will be released in the fourth quarter but as some sort of "open beta."

*edited for clarity

tischbein3
12-03-2005, 03:37 AM
I had decided not to answer on such threads anymore, and only in a way to make fun of them, because although they are fun to read, you can only make a fool of yourself, but anyway this whole thing gets slowly out of control.

6 points to consider:

a. On a user point of view to judge when its right or wrong, to release a program, is simply wrong.

b. The few weeks I have to wait additionally, hurts less than one single bug wich isn't squashed, carried on in newer versions and slows down my production process. I didn't invested the money just to have a new decoration on my shelf by the end of this year,
when I could get a more stable, better documented and more featured version by the beginning of the next.

If Newtek thinks this will need an additional year before release, it will need an additional year. period.

c. This time we are all quite well informed about the features lw9 includes, and we all have even seen some video previews of the stuff comming. Sure words like "the ever popular 'and more' " will lead to higher expectations what will be included and resulting in this to such threads.

d. Nobody forces you to prebuy it. Nobody involved her couldn't say they didn't know that this could happen.

e. (I don't know if I didn't mentioned this before) but when these rages (on both sides) continue to go on like this we will have dead people by the release of lw10.

These "fanlover - fanhater" stuff really starts to hurt the community, guys....

and finaly:

f. expresing doubt or a "convinced additude" is no problem, and in fact is part of a more open minded community. But currently this is getting in a somewhat attack / defendant play wich would me, if I would be in search of a 3d solution rather distract than attract.

UnCommonGrafx
12-03-2005, 07:05 AM
You know that's why these threads get started: The Human plugins. This is the free marketing spin the detractors would like. And encourage.


and finaly:

f. expresing doubt or a "convinced additude" is no problem, and in fact is part of a more open minded community. But currently this is getting in a somewhat attack / defendant play wich would me, if I would be in search of a 3d solution rather distract than attract.

tischbein3
12-03-2005, 08:13 AM
You know that's why these threads get started: The Human plugins. This is the free marketing spin the detractors would like. And encourage.

Partly yes, but partly there is some reasonable critique behind.
And replies / resonances like "you are a fanboy..." or on the other side
"if you don't like it then go and play with your xyz product..."
makes it really in no way better.

So my wish, and hope is, NT and some of the "forum inventories" - members finds a way to bring/canalise these activities into something usefull.

ps:
Oh dear, now I'm slapping both sides,.. certainly not the way to make friends here...

UnCommonGrafx
12-03-2005, 08:20 AM
No problems with the critiques of NT.
It's who The Human Plugins tend to bring up as a "Better Example". I find that to be garbage.

And it won't get any better until all this stuff is shipped. Then the p1ssing contests will really begin. Sad, though.

Chuck
12-03-2005, 02:35 PM
IPlease show me, where i called either Matt or Ted a NT fanboy.....?
Perhaps try not to put words in my mouth as you have shown to of done that so badly in the past, and lost credit and respect in the process.

Taken all together your post read to me as though that's what you meant. As per Matt's post, I'm not the only one who saw it that way. If that's not what you meant, my apologies for being mistaken about it, but I stand by my comments about what it means when someone brings the term "fanboys" into any discussion. I have on previous occasions as moderator of the board stipulated that discussions need to stick to issues, not wander into ad hominem, and that the epithets that come into play on both sides such as "fanboys" and "whiners" need to be parked at the door - they have no place on this forum.

As for the rest of your personal remarks about my character and about past events - I'll skip it. You have your own point of view on events, and in my experience trying to get you to see another point of view just ends up doing no one any good.

RedBull
12-03-2005, 04:12 PM
Taken all together your post read to me as though that's what you meant. As per Matt's post, I'm not the only one who saw it that way. If that's not what you meant, my apologies for being mistaken about it, but I stand by my comments about what it means when someone brings the term "fanboys" into any discussion. I have on previous occasions as moderator of the board stipulated that discussions need to stick to issues, not wander into ad hominem, and that the epithets that come into play on both sides such as "fanboys" and "whiners" need to be parked at the door - they have no place on this forum.

I agree, that's why i never called anybody a "fanboy" just that you (as i)
must be aware that 70% of posts on these forums, will be biased in a proNT
based flavour (especially where you or your staff are involved) Thats expected and that was my comment.... (Apology accepted)


As for the rest of your personal remarks about my character and about past events - I'll skip it. You have your own point of view on events, and in my experience trying to get you to see another point of view just ends up doing no one any good.

Yes i do have my own POV, and why people assume my opinion should always reflect theirs is a mystery..... From the messages from a few emails and personal messages iv'e recieved in the last 24 hours it would seem that
I'm certainly not alone in some of my ideas and points of view.

So maybe you should be trying to get everybody else to see your POV.
or perhaps you could even try and understand somebody elses opinion besides your own. And with problems in the past certainly the overwhelming response i had from long time respected LW artists confirms we all see things differently, and quite often not the same as NT does.

Regardless, i don't hold grudges.... I just prefer to see them not arise again!

StereoMike
12-03-2005, 06:50 PM
I can't understand your POV, Red Bull.
Given the question, if I prefer a buggy product caused by a rushed release or a balanced and finished product with some added development time, I would surely take the finished product. I guess everyone, who needs lw9 as a new tool, would answer the same.
And what's all that talk about the delay? Can anyone change it by complaining and reproaching? Feature requests and bug workshop have their place, cause that helps developing and enhancing the app.
What's the logic behind complaining about unchangeable things? What's the motive?

I've read your last post several times, and it's only about justifying yourself. It seems to me, that you talked yourself into a corner and that you are heavily defending yourself at the moment.


Back on topic:
sure it would be nice, if NT would give a note on a delay, but it wouldn't ruin my day (not even my mood), cause I have plenty of things to do, that I can do with 8.xx. I for one deal release dates rather as "when it's done", I have money to earn and can't rely on vague (q4) release dates, I plan to achieve everything with the tools that I have now, or which I can get now.

I had preordered lw8, so I surely know what could happen, when I ordered 9.
Ok, the first disappointments in life were hard, actually my Dad didn't know everything and my mother wasn't the most beautiful women in the world.
But after I understand, that everyone and everything will disappoint me at some time, it wasn't so hard anymore, cause _that's life_!
Someone must have a hard time, beating every dog which is barking at him.

At least having a relaxed attitude is good for your heart.

Sorry if this post offends one or the other.

Joscci
12-04-2005, 01:20 PM
I can't understand your POV, Red Bull.

You know, you people are all missing the point. This is not about 'forcing' NT to push a product for release at a specific time or not, nor it is about getting it "our-way", this is about NT's business practices. Our argument -- which I believe it to be, RedBull's argument as well is very simple... it's about TRUST, and RESPECT, which is something that with all due respect, NT clearly has been lacking lately.

Personally, I don't really care whether a product comes out on time, or whether it slips its shipping date. The case that we're trying to make here is that if NT knows that they won't be able to ship a product because some unforseen problem or other, that it should be their responsibility to make a corporate statement to its very loyal users of such fact. This is the issue that we're trying to make here!

Unfortunately, this is not the way that NT handles such situations and in return, the only thing the rest of us get is the 'silent treatment.'

Would you say this is a fair to the very loyal users and businesses that make it possible for NT to continue to do business to this day? A business cannot exist without its customers, you know!

"Well these are just estimates..." -- Well true they are, but when you make officials statments such as "LightWave 3D version 9.0 is expected to be available in the 4 th quarter for US$795.00 for a single user license.", that tells me that there's a high degree of certainty in a product being released by such date. It doesn't say, "we're hoping to...", or "approximately around..." it says, it is "EXPECTED". If I 'expect' you to be 'on time', then you SHOULD be 'on time', -- not 'approximately' on time, not 'some time around' it, but ON IT.

I continue to be dumbfounded as to why NT insists on playing this "Guess-timation" game that they're so terrible at. Who can forget the LW[8] propaganda that lasted for a year -- all those users that paid for a product only to come one year after. What about the show NT conducted in (was it Las Vegas?)... "LW [8.5] upgrade with your purchase of LW[8], immediately" (or something along those lines....), and so 8.5 didn't come after SEVERAL weeks... (or was it months?) later! If I touch a stove (*I* woudn't) and I get burned.... I wouldn't touch it again.... and if I touch it a second time... well there would be something wrong with me, wouldn't it? Why does NT continues to make horribly off-the-target estimates is beyond me, but you'd think that they would've learned their lesson by now.

"Nobody's forcing you to buy it..." -- Well, I beg to differ, especially when NT makes official statements such as the one above, and especially when they have a web-page and all, ready to take your money -- in my personal opinion, being able to pre-purchase a product taking all of the aforementioned cues into consideration tells me that such product is 'around the corner' within a month, maybe two. NO COMPANY should be able to take your money for more than 30 days without you receiving something in return -- not EVEN A YEAR -- that s**t should be illegal! It's a sad situation that more and more software-based comapanies are taking on this practice and have the balls to justify for it (Hint: Luxology), and even worse, more and more software companies taking on the practice of expecting us to pay thousands of dollars for a product that that is "secretly" still on a beta-stage (Hint: Next Limit -- MAXWELL). Only on a F'ed up world like this, do people say that is okay, and dare to say it with a straight face -- we continue to lower our expectations more and more and are more willing to take on products that are half-finished. What's the industry coming to?

"You will always have bugs..." -- Sure, this is true, I'm a programmer myself, but just because most software have bugs doesn't mean that should be the norm. If you go buy a car, or a TV, or a PS2, or a (programmaticaly complex) Video Game, you'd expect it to work, not sort of work, but to just work. Game Developers do far more impressive things with hardware AND software in a much, much ridiculously short amount of time and managage to ship a product without a hitch -- all for approximately ~$40 bucks!. Why should it be any different for 3D software? A company, software or not, should strive for the most important axiom of all time -- "ZERO DEFECTS!" Many respectable (and not so..) companies manage to achieve this kind of Nirvana -- why shouldn't NT? Don't you think so? For $1, 495 bucks, (at least back then), don't you think so???? So please, spare me the all-too-common cliche of "this is the most stable version of our product up to date," because real-world practice has shown that for every feature you fix or add, you end up breaking another one -- I don't want more bells and whistles, I just want a stable freaking product!

I'm really tired of NT and their 'fanatics' always being so pro-NT, so blinded with "Love" for their beloved ("my preccciousssss....") product (Don't get me wrong, I do think LW is freaking awesome) that they are quick to forgive NT for their shortcomings (when they do occur) and be quick to justify anything wrong they do. I understand they admire NT so much and their products -- there's nothing wrong with that, but it would be nice if they stopped and stepped back for a second to think and say, "I Love NT, I LOVE LW, but I do agree that there are things where NT could improve upon -- I want to be kept in the loop," insteand of being quick to shout "NT's GREAT! AND YOU'RE WRONG!, BURN IN ****!" for anybody who says otherwise. As much as NT wishes for things to be handy-dandy, you should also be open to times when things aren't, and the user-based community that feels otherwise shouldn't be punished for speaking out and making a statement that goes "against the grain." Though, they're 'fanatics', well, you can't blame them, they're allowed because they're blinded by Love. However, I cannot forgive NT's own to also take on this egotistical attitude of self-denial. They spend so much time moderating and playing 'Nanny' for these **** teenange (or teenage-minded) ridden threads that they forget to do the one thing of most merit to us all -- to L I S T E N. I don't know how many times I've come across moderator statements where they simply will NOT apologize for any issues that other professionals (or not) bring to the table, where they'll try with all their might to justify why things are the way they are -- always PRO-NT. They're too focused on their own feelings that they can't get past their discriminating attitudes and fail to comprehend the things that we (such as RedBull and *I*) are trying to say. It is clear to me that some folks just AIN'T ****ING LISTENING!

I'm sorry but they're a lot of professionals out there whom have some real work to do and don't have the time dicking around these threads cramming your server's hard-disks with nothing but fantical and euphoric pro-NT statements. Professional's whose words also count, whom also have important things to say, and most importantly whose money represent the bloodstream that has made NT what it is today.

All we ask for is for you (NT) to respect us, the loyal users, to treat us with the same respact and loyalism, or fanatical-ism that we have so openly, and so shamelessly shown you dating way back since the old Amiga days. Fanatical or not, what wrong can such honest and humble request be? Really, Mr. Jim Plant, is it really too much to ask?

I know there's money involved... that you're afraid of LW-users to even consider the possibility of migrating to another platform, which is probably why you continue to give us the silent-treatmet and play the false-hope card of "it's coming soon..." to keep those few 'doubt-ful souls' in check, but we're people... not sales/stock-sky-rocketing profit potentials -- we're people -- your costumers.

WE WANT TO BE KEPT IN THE LOOP! -- if there's a problem -- we should know!

Anyways,

I didn't come here to debate, I came here to make a statement and to tell RedBull that I feel what he feels, and that I understand what he's trying to say -- dude, you're not alone! I Love, Love, Love LightWave... but that doesn't mean that I too, like a lot of people here, will jump right-quick to offer biased statements -- for I speak the truth, and nothing but the truth. So, I truly apologize if I have broken a few hearts.

NT really needs to step up the PR.

Sorry for the excessive rambling but I've been wanting to get this off me-chest for a long time. Somebody had to say something and I guess that was me! If you feel like hating back, go for it, freedom's the greatest thing and everyone's entitled to their opinions.

That is all -- P e a c e!

-- END OF LINE --

hstewarth
12-04-2005, 01:26 PM
I saw some where that Vue 5 Infinite offer was extended to Dec 31st, 2005, not sure if it has any relationship to ship date of Lightwave 9.0.

I used Lightwave only as hobby, but professionally I am in software development. I would rather have software a little late then full of bugs.

I would not doubt that we will have a 9.2, 9.3 and 9.5 next year and a major 10.0 release at very end of 2006.

tischbein3
12-04-2005, 03:22 PM
"hype is the fire we all shall burn."

DarrellV
12-04-2005, 03:36 PM
Quote from RedBull: "My distributor went to NT in Texas last month to meet Jay Roth... And he assures me that Jay assured him it's still on schedule for a 4th quarter release..."

As "the distributor" I'm going to walk a very dangerous line here and talk about the beta and also give my 18.9 cents worth of opinion...

I think you guys are a little ahead of yourselves by around 1 week... As I see it (based on the beta) NewTek have this week (perhaps next) to decide if V9 is able to ship this year. My personal opinion is that the beta has been coming along nicely and the team has been doing an amazing job squashing bugs and implementing features, BUT I admit I'm not 100% across all issues that may or may not stop it from shipping.

Right now "our" (the distributor) confidence is good for a Q4 ship but like all of you we are waiting to hear from NewTek if we are making the end of year release or not.. We are expecting to be notified this or next week (to be honest I wouldn't expect notification sooner).

I have been involved in large and small software companies and I can tell you NewTek have always impressed me how fast they can go from gold master (completed build / Final CD ROM) to production then shipping, As I say above there is still a chance V9 will ship this year but then again not... but I think you guys have jumped the gun (just a little)

tischbein3
12-04-2005, 03:48 PM
Just a question, darrel (as you are involved in that buisseness) ?

Is it just me, or is this year really the "not quite onschedule" year concerning product releases/upgrades in general ?

DarrellV
12-04-2005, 03:59 PM
I think we are literally at the point of on "or" off schedule in the next week or two...

Either way I guess it comes down to, having it release Dec or Jan.. I realize RedBull and others point that there should be a "announcement" as we are so close.. But "I" believe NewTek are still in the; can / cannot ship "zone".. so why say anything (just yet)..

Just hold tite, im sure you will hear something soonish!

UnCommonGrafx
12-04-2005, 04:09 PM
But Darrell....!!!!!,
That would be the mature thing to do....

tischbein3
12-04-2005, 04:52 PM
I realize RedBull and others point that there should be a "announcement" as we are so close..


Well in fact this thread is about multible stuff:
1. What about the release date,
2. Newteks generall information policy
3. Fanboy<->Whiners accusion
4. How to handle fanboy<->whiners accusion and its impacts
5. a subtle deturn to hype vs fact
6 LightWave's current state and Newteks strategy towards it and its customers...



But "I" believe NewTek are still in the; can / cannot ship "zone".. so why say anything (just yet)..


Currently I'm waiting for 5 different software updates wich are all more or less noticeable behind schedule, (so I'm really wondering about this) ...
and all companies handle things differently: some posts excuses, some hide a small note deeply on the web page and some do nothing...

wich does not change anything at the whole situation...

but in fact you are the second person stating something in this direction, so either something really unexpected occured, or they are on time.


EDIT:

...and I forgot, thanks for sharing your info.

awrieger
12-06-2005, 11:21 PM
You know that's why these threads get started: The Human plugins. This is the free marketing spin the detractors would like. And encourage.

Yes! I am a Human Plugin! I have been sent here by The Detractors to wreak havoc and destruction!

Alas though, the reality of my dull and boring life doesn't match up to your vivid conspiracy imagination. If only!

I'm just a single LW user who like many others has been expecting and waiting for the LW9 upgrade and have resorted to guesswork as to whether that expection will be met.

To be honest, I don't really even care if it is LW9 or not. I haven't even read the list of new features for LW9. I don't actually need any new features. I just need a stable LW 8.5.1 where everything that's there already and the app itself works perfectly. If a stable v8.5.1 turns out to be v9 then so be it and the new features are just an extra bonus, not actually something I'm waiting for.

Right at this very moment I'm experiencing LW reverting back to it's defaults every time I open either Modeller of Layout, so have to reset everything anew and reload all the plugins each time. In fact, the problem is so bad I'm currently using Strata CX to render a client's logo instead of LW becasue I have to leave it and come back to it often (which means quitting and reopening the app). Strata may not be anywhere near as slick and fully featured as LW, but heck, it's 1000% stable. Like Photoshop. Like Final Cut. Like any other app on my system. Except LW. I simply cannot guarantee the client I will have it done in time if I use LW.

Which is why when I'm told to expect a new more stable version of LW, I look forward to it so much to the point of seeking hints everywhere to guess when it's arrival will come. And will be dissapointed if it's delayed.


Edit: Addendum - I tell a lie. There is actually one feature I'd like to see implemented in LW and one feature only. That's to be able to set up lights and render in modelling view. Like Strata or C4D. This segregation of Modeller and Layout just doesn't suit me. Unfortunately I can't see it ever happening. I understand the focus on animation and the need for separation of modelling from rendering and animation in production pipelines. But I'm just me. I'm not an animator, let alone an animation pipeline.

Maybe the new Inspire 3D will do that. They say it will be focussed more for print creators, so hopefully they will ditch all the unecessary animation stuff. Just have model and render. Together. If so, I'd switch to Inspire from LW without hesitation. But I'm not hopeful there either. It sounds like it'll just be a stripped down version of LW with separate Modeller and Layout and animation like the previous Inspire.

tonybliss
12-16-2005, 06:21 AM
Um ... I run a multimedia studio and a lecture and facilitate a professional 3d course using LW

as the facil and lect ... I NEED to be aware of dates and releases et al for preparation and marketing purposes. But being the businessman i am ... prudency helps! If LW9 is held back we continue teaching LW 8.5. It is harder teach newbies and 'other software' critics/luvers a buggy LW than a fluid LW. That will be wasting peoples time and money bad for our already steady rep.

as the studio director and artist ... I currently use 'productivity' plugins such as fprime, maestro, amleto and some free ones as relevance calls. My pipeline depends on these plugs ... I am quite sure ... even if these guys (plugin dev) are beta testers. that their LW9 updates will not occur as soon as it is released (worley and LW 8.5). this is not seamless for a realistic production pipeline. Plus if LW 9 is buggy that WILL affect workflow. LW 9 is just as exciting for me as it is for every other user and I will expect to be kept in the loop but as a studio this should not affect my workflow if all was already going well (mostly)

CAClark
12-16-2005, 04:29 PM
I think the odds are on LW9 being pretty buggy, jst based on historical experience from 6 onwards. They'll add cool stuff. They'll add pointless stuff. They'll fix stuff. They'll break stuff. That's the nature of LW.

I just hope they have focussed on useful stuff, not bolting lots of stuff that is not actually that useful (the HWSL in 8.5 as an example).

Time will tell.... whenever that is!

Cheers!