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homeboy0358
11-27-2005, 09:45 PM
I think Lightwave's drop in price was good. However I think Lightwave 9 should have around a $1,000 dollar price tag. Why u ask... because i believe Lightwave 9 should have more features than what is currently listed. All the features wil be make it better than Lw 8 but what about the other software packages out there. I would like to see the day where the knowledge of lightwave is a request on most CG animation studios requirements for jobs. It seems now a days most of the animation studios want people with Maya or 3ds max knowledge. Lightwave is unique in its workflow and its out of the box performance but.. I would like it push the Nas button and catch up. So I am saying I rather see a bigger pricetag with more or higher end capabilities than just better of the same. I am anticipating the future release of Lightwave 9. I hope it is somthing truely special for all the Lightwave fans. KEEP UP THE GOOD WORK NEWTEK.

I would like to see
- A full sascuach plugin shiped with lightwave or another type of hair plugin
- Better animation tools (character studio)
- Even faster rendering ... (i know its faster but.... Get it even faster if ya can.. plz.)
- Plugin for liquid dynamics and stuff... doest maya offer somthing like that in the unlimited edition.

I dont currently own lightwave 8 so i dont know what it offers now but I am lookin forward to lightwave 9 so keep up the good work.

- Other comments or suggestions are welcome thx -

jbaudrand
11-27-2005, 10:13 PM
:i_agree:

Yes, but most of us ask theses features for years (since 7.0) and nobody seems to understand... I know it's a money buisiness to include worley plug into lightwave default packaging, but as you see,I'm not the one who ask better features and increase the price.... but, hey no problem, peebler and hastings work on it.... :D

nakrul
11-27-2005, 10:36 PM
Its
NAAAAAAASSSSSSSS

I think maya is and well as the other high in stuff is hiting the limit I mean there is only so much you can do...I think that in 3-5 years lw will be with all the others. I don't know. It just seems like maya has everything so its slowing down alot. Your going to get to that point. lightwave has a ways to go...from what I see. :lwicon:

StereoMike
11-28-2005, 12:42 AM
Though I know, that you can't raise the price right after lowering it, I'm with Homeboy on this. I would've loved to see some great plugs added to the user base instead of lowering the price for the new entries. fPrime and LW is a lovely couple, if everyone could have it from the beginning as part of the package, ppl would learn much faster. Or think of the new fluid system flowline, would be killer to have it at hand. A company mustn't develop all by themselves, think of Mental ray, Syflex cloth and Agaeis physics engine. Sure, everyone would have to pay for it (via the default pricetag), but it would boost the capabilities.

But anyway, the pricedrop is already done, so no whining about irreversible circumstances, let's look forward to 9 and it's surprises :)

CB_3D
11-28-2005, 02:25 AM
Though I know, that you can't raise the price right after lowering it, I'm with Homeboy on this. I would've loved to see some great plugs added to the user base instead of lowering the price for the new entries. fPrime and LW is a lovely couple, if everyone could have it from the beginning as part of the package, ppl would learn much faster. Or think of the new fluid system flowline, would be killer to have it at hand. A company mustn't develop all by themselves, think of Mental ray, Syflex cloth and Agaeis physics engine. Sure, everyone would have to pay for it (via the default pricetag), but it would boost the capabilities.

But anyway, the pricedrop is already done, so no whining about irreversible circumstances, let's look forward to 9 and it's surprises :)

Syflex alone costs 2000...

No, letīs have them concentrate on opening the SDK so that 3rd parties have full access to EVERYTHING in LW. Much more important than cramming existing plugs into it!

StereoMike
11-28-2005, 03:31 AM
Syflex alone costs 2000...

And is part of xsi advanced.
See, you don't have to reinvent the wheel if there's a good solution out there (e.g. fPrime). Developing these things by themselves would cause similar cost I guess (or rather more, depending on the cost of the average codemonkey).


No, letīs have them concentrate on opening the SDK so that 3rd parties have full access to EVERYTHING in LW. Much more important than cramming existing plugs into it!

So we can cram new plugs in by ourselves?
Sure, opening the SDK is one of the most important things, but not at the price of the developer laying back and seeing, if the community can enhance the application by adding one plug after the other.
That was more or less the past, and I hope it won't be the future.
Newtek knows, it's essential, to get on with the workflow, that's why Modeler tools will be streamlined in v9.
I think that the developer should partake in making the interface and/or integrating huge and expensive plugs like an external fluid package or previewer. That way NT could control, how well it's integrated and assure a proper and solid UI.

Dodgy
11-28-2005, 03:52 AM
If you want full sasquatch why don't you buy it? It's not like you haven't heard of it.

As cb3d says, getting the sdk and core workflows sorted is the main thing. That's the main reason Maya is tool of choice in big studios, its sdk is complete in as much as every function has it's own mel script and sdk command. I won't say its workflow, as it has some real problems there.

CB_3D
11-28-2005, 03:52 AM
Well, i am the first to ask for perfect cloth and hair in LW, i just think itīs not very realistic to ask for Syflex quality in 9.

ackees
11-28-2005, 04:37 AM
I disagree, if LW 9 could be rock solid and fast as grease lightening with the features already stated i would be happy.
It's hopeless having things added that don't work, I think NT are cautious because resources are limited, they're feeling some kind of pinch, and hope to build on a new solid base. lets face it the previous programmers deliberately sabotaged LW and spent time working on a new baby, there is no way that 'M' word could have been developed so quickly if the programmers had been paying full attention to LW.

StereoMike
11-28-2005, 05:47 AM
Well, i am the first to ask for perfect cloth and hair in LW, i just think itīs not very realistic to ask for Syflex quality in 9.


Syflex was an example for integrating external plugs into a package.
I for one don't need it.
quote me on integrating fPrime.
they could've integrate it and although lower the price a 500$. That way you'd get more advanced users in less time and the attraction of a lower price.

Sure, I dunno if Steve Worley would be happy with that, so it's only blabla, but at least for me it makes sense :)


if LW 9 could be rock solid and fast as grease lightening with the features already stated i would be happy.
It's hopeless having things added that don't work,

True. And for me less cluttering and a streamlined workflow is part of the game. I'm really pissed sometimes when I have to scroll through tons of plugs, searching the one bevel-plug , that makes a certain operation slightly different than all the other 5814 similar plugs, and you need right this.
Think alone of the many derivates of the "move"tool _inside_ modeler (stock LW).

Are there so many plugs and scripts, cause it's easy, cause they fit so many shortcomings or cause the default set is not optimal?

I know, I sound like a wiener errr whiner, but errrr sorry.

And yes the two M... guys are nasty for torpedoing their own brain child.
But I really think the new dev team will produce a great v9, cause the guys know the shortcomings of v8, and they heard all the constantly whining and moaning.
And therefor I better stop now, cause all this "what could be" talk leads rather to frustration :cursin: than to new enlightenments. :angel:

Mike

CB_3D
11-28-2005, 06:16 AM
lets face it the previous programmers deliberately sabotaged LW and spent time working on a new baby, there is no way that 'M' word could have been developed so quickly if the programmers had been paying full attention to LW.

I donīt know. Iīm pretty sure that you donīt know, either. :)

iaef
11-28-2005, 06:57 AM
Let's not start fights against things we don't know and can't be solved.

About bigger LW and price tag. I guess this sort of thing has already been on the table each internal build cycle. I trust on NT an their way of making things. I believe that LW is perfect nowadays because it is price conscious in many aspects. You don't have to make great expenses on sw as well as on hw, since it will load on extreme situations where no 3ds or maya will.

I guess that it's pulgin architecture must be streamlined and perfected. Yes, many worley interfaces are a nightmare, many plugins under the "more" tab are endless.

I am pretty sure that NT is working towards a more open architecture and a streamlined workflow and interface. They mut so it step by step, because it wouldn't be nice for the 1 or 2 men shops that sel plugins to discover that their plugins are not working anymore and that they must learn a nicer but totally newer API.

habaņero
11-28-2005, 10:02 AM
I don't understand the initial post. For what LW7 would cost you now can get LW+Fprime++, or LW + Realflow. Max is 4 K? You can then add the whole of the worley line, Zbrush, messiah, maxwell and so on. $7K for XSI advanced, add 3K more of SW. Just the difference between the old an new LW price will buy you a x2 rendernode, thats twice the render speed just there. :)

Also I think I disagree with your suggested model. I think it is better for people to buy the addins and plugins they actually need, eg we actually have "LW essentials" (which would be LW+the worley line) and "LW advanced" only we have infinite render nodes and lotsa other stuff with LW basic and you can completely customize the contents of them to your specific needs.

I think certain plugins that improve "core" concepts like workflow or new and better ways of doing stuff everybody using the program already do in Basic LW. Those type of plugins I think it would make sense to inject. But things that add additional functionality that large parts of the users don't need, I think it is good to have them separate.

It would be cool though if Lightwave would sell bundles with names sortof matching the XSI packages, price is one of LWs clear advantages and so it would be cool to highlight it even better.

It'd also be cool if they would sell a good medium workstation with everything installed and setup well as a package, that would perhaps match the XSI essentials. You could include an small boxx or something akin to the asus premium32/opteron package I am looking at now for that price, maybe at a better deal than in other shops. It'd be cool to know you could just order one, have it shipped overnight and know someone could take it out of the box and immediately start working. And you could ship it readily setup with Screamernet (or butterfly etc), selling node boxes as well that you could reliably just plug in and press render on with no setup at all which would also be very cool. Anyway, just an idea!

Dodgy
11-28-2005, 10:40 AM
About bigger LW and price tag. I guess this sort of thing has already been on the table each internal build cycle. I trust on NT an their way of making things. I believe that LW is perfect nowadays because it is price conscious in many aspects. You don't have to make great expenses on sw as well as on hw, since it will load on extreme situations where no 3ds or maya will.

Definitely. 4 grand for max will get you a whole lotta of LW stuff you actually NEED for your job, or another PC (or 3) if you don't :)


I guess that it's pulgin architecture must be streamlined and perfected. Yes, many worley interfaces are a nightmare, many plugins under the "more" tab are endless.

That doesn't have to be the case though. My Layout only has one tab, all my menus are under that, or under my mouse menus. That makes it very streamlined. The Modifier lists (like Displacement Plugins box) could do with looking at though, and figuring out if it's possible to do them a better way, especially making the list boxes longer, I usually have loads of displacement plugins on a mesh, and the list box has room for 3? 4?


I am pretty sure that NT is working towards a more open architecture and a streamlined workflow and interface. They mut so it step by step, because it wouldn't be nice for the 1 or 2 men shops that sel plugins to discover that their plugins are not working anymore and that they must learn a nicer but totally newer API.

Yup, speaking as a developer, I would like to see a nicer api, but it should be built alongside the current one so my new plugins could use it, but my old ones would still work :)

Dodgy
11-28-2005, 10:42 AM
Maybe NT could do like Maxon do and have a page listing all the commercial plugins available, under the kind of work they're suited for, like a CAD section etc.
I know Flay is great, but it might make NT sell a few more licenses if people can look at their web pages and see all the support LW gets in addition to it's core program.

meatycheesyboy
11-28-2005, 11:27 AM
I would like to see
- A full sascuach plugin shiped with lightwave or another type of hair plugin




fPrime and LW is a lovely couple, if everyone could have it from the beginning as part of the package, ppl would learn much faster. Or think of the new fluid system flowline, would be killer to have it at hand.


It seems to me that people forget one important thing, buying something is a two way street, one must be willing to buy and the other must be willing to sell. Maybe Newtek has approached plugin developers to incorporate things like Sas, FPrime, etc. and the developers said no sale. Just because it hasn't happened doesn't mean it was never thought of or tried.

coremi
11-28-2005, 01:03 PM
one problem is there are very few developers for Lightwave and by each year are fewer and fewer. Polas hasn't update his site since january 2005, pazur with surpasses almost the same, Evasion3D the same, some developers went to work with newtek like INO or VRBA from Dynamic Realities and no more plugins from them, same from Tufflittleunit.... Except Worley only a few are developing tools for Lightwave. A huge thanx for PICTRIX wich is doing a great FREE work for modeler.
This is a very big problem because now people expect everything from Newtek, if it were to be 100 plugin developers with comercial and some free plugins or scripts we will no expect so much from Newtek. a while ago everybody was bithing about snap tools in modeler, now we got SP_Move, SP_Roll, shear etc.. nobody is mentioning the lack of snap tools in modeler. I think 3rd party developers are very very important and Lightwave has too little of them.

Dodgy
11-28-2005, 01:48 PM
It's hard for commercial developers if all the people say 'Can we have this, can we have that' and then these same people won't pay for this functionality when someone gives it to them. I can imagine a lot of these developers are doing more for the love than the chance they'll actually make some money out of plugins. I know Surpasses for one didn't make a lot of money, even though people were continually asking for layer functionality, and it's only 85 euros. If people aren't going to pay those kind of prices for the power you have there, you're going to see fewer and fewer professional programmers providing that kind of power. I do it for love, but I have a sufficiently well paying job and the plugins I make are fairly minor, or at least minor enough that i don't have to spend all my time on them.

RedBull
11-28-2005, 02:57 PM
No doubt, by dropping the price on LW, they do paint themselves into a corner. And it will mean less features and inclusions for us, as a result.....

I think it's a stupid, and worrying trend, when people endlessly
ask for Maya's feature x, and XSI's feature y, and etc......
Just because, they heard it's cool, or somebody told me i needed it... etc...
Sure Every Maya and XSI feature is wanted by us..... But try and be a little realistic people.

Alias, multimillion dollar company, now owned by a billion dollar one.....
Avid, a billion dollar multimedia empire...
Both were built from the ground up, to compete and better LW....
And to take marketshare away from NT...

NT should be banned from buying products like Sasquatch Lite, or even FPrime.... NT are notorius for buying a plugin and leaving it as abandonware
for every future release (and not integrating it). If we bought Fprime at version 1.0 It would still be a version 1.0, if NT owned it.....

NT have included so many plugins
We bought particle storm, and then made our own dynamics,
we bought motion designer2, and scrapped it for LW dynamics....
MorphGizmo, we abandon and make morphmixer....
Hypervoxels2, was a plugin, then integrated, and virtually unchanged since 6.5
(LW9 adds a third party Waterpool deformer) Steamer and volumetrics...
Wavefilter....... We built our own expressions, and then replace it with R2.

This company like doing everything the hard, and expensive way.... twice!
And What the other say about the core is very true...

What good is FPrime, integrated into LW, if it can't see anything in LW....
(shaders, volumetrics etc) It becomes Band-Aid ware....
Which is really what LW has become......

The sad thing is, it's still bloody more useful 80% of the time, than it's rivals.
Which makes my head spin.......

XSI Adv and Maya unlimited are in a different class to Lightwave.....
It's never going to compete with that market... It can't..

And stuff like Flowline i mean just grow up and be a tad realistic....
I can't even begin to tell you, whats wrong with that idea.
(a million lines of code puts realflow and Maya's dynamics to shame,
but let's integrate it, into the cheapest and most handicapped 3D SDK, on the market, and include it for free in LW9.......... Yes some of you people are the realistic visionaries, that should be guiding this ship.... :)

habaņero
11-28-2005, 03:52 PM
I think I mostly agree with you, but if there is one small issue I think it would be that since the New Dev team have publicly stated they are heading in a totally different direction than the previous, they should be given a little benefit of doubt. The people that implemented your examples are now making Modo, and with the modular, clean core that is being built for 9 I think some of the underlying problems that lead to what you describe will go away.

"XSI Adv and Maya unlimited are in a different class to Lightwave.....
It's never going to compete with that market... It can't.."

Well, I'd say stranger things have happened. I think Serenity is a part of that market, and so it should be fair to say that it is competing in it, though at this point not getting a lot of prizes and medals. It is very dangerous to make predictions in such a fast moving business though. Notice what tricks certain new team members pulled earlier.

It might be that there aint the same plugin output as some years ago, but I would say that stuff like chanlum, the two greeble and nurnies plugs, pictrix, prismatic, virtual mirror and so on, some good stuff and free as well and just from the last year. For paid stuff; LWCad, Ropeworks (****ing amazing!) Ogo_taiki/Hikari is actually still being developed I thinks, Pictrix shareware, Evasion 3D tools, I probably forgot lots. Also the 3D photo browser from Moo tools, that will possibly be made into something akin to Adobe bridge for LW. Just in the areas were I have specific personal interest, I have seen great plugin development the last year. Obviously the whole new set of options coming with LW9 should mean there would be lots more opportunities for plugin development as well, lotsa new problems and solutions possible ...

StereoMike
11-28-2005, 04:02 PM
Yes some of you people are the realistic visionaries, that should be guiding this ship....

ahhh, yes... mmmm that's nice....

Now that someone understood me I can come up with the really visionary ideas!
Free sandwich with every sold package!

Your points about NT's abandonware are good one's, I overlooked that.
Besides that, I never said, that NT should implement Syflex cloth, I just gave some examples how other companies license external software to patch their product. Others then tried to nail me on "NT should add a 2000$ plug?"

And by the sheer frequency of occurence (Mental Ray as Jack of all trades) you know, that other developers think, adding external apps is a good, or economic or in any kind better way for some situations.

And yes I know, that this whole thread is fruitless whining cause v9 is near it's release and therefor we cannot change pricing, content or features.

And e.g. Mental Ray isn't abondware, at least other developers manage these things better.

RedBull
11-28-2005, 04:30 PM
I think i mostly agree with you too... :)
Yep the new team show be allowed to show it's wares and be given the benefit of the doubt.... And i have faith, that the team that NT has now,
is capable..... But it can be a very hard task, to make major inroads, in a single version.

And NO! i don't mean LW can't produce the same outstanding quality FX,
as XSI or Maya unlimited...... I mean, that's the point LW does compete with
these products in terms of output.... But not on features.

LW has advantages and Maya has advantages.....
LW can't always compete in the money game....
Larger studio's will rubbish LW, due to price and programability....
Freelancers will rubbish Maya's interface, convoluted workflow, and sometimes
piss poor basic implementation of Modeling tools.

LW won't always have Flowline or MentalRay.... It won't always get Glu3D..
Shave and Haircut isn't available for LW.....
LW is the perfect tool, for smaller 3D companies and freelancers...
It's not going to help in a 300 person custom WETA MR and PR pipeline...
LW is capable, and many who use it know it's a 3D secret weapon..

LW has to establish itself, and not be confined to follow the big boys with deep pockets..... It will never be able to keep up, by following.....
LW needs innovation, it has not had any since LW6/6.5 IMO...
But i hope that the new team, pulls a few rabbits out of hats... :)

ackees
11-28-2005, 04:33 PM
Hopefully LW 9 will have 'happyware'.

RedBull
11-28-2005, 04:45 PM
ahhh, yes... mmmm that's nice....

Now that someone understood me I can come up with the really visionary ideas! Free sandwich with every sold package!

Your points about NT's abandonware are good one's, I overlooked that.
Besides that, I never said, that NT should implement Syflex cloth, I just gave some examples how other companies license external software to patch their product. Others then tried to nail me on "NT should add a 2000$ plug?"

And by the sheer frequency of occurence (Mental Ray as Jack of all trades) you know, that other developers think, adding external apps is a good, or economic or in any kind better way for some situations.

And yes I know, that this whole thread is fruitless whining cause v9 is near it's release and therefor we cannot change pricing, content or features.

And e.g. Mental Ray isn't abondware, at least other developers manage these things better.

Hehe, Mike it was not aimed at you BTW..... It was more a general comment..MR is one area, that affects LW... I must admit...

Having XSI and Maya and Max, all have access to the one renderer,
and be able to load and share mtl shaders etc, is a huge benefit for those software. IMO..... It gives them common ground, or a industry standard
If Maxya ever is crated with unlimited MR nodes, like Max now offers...
I fear for the long term viability of LW.

I'm really starting to see a need for standards....
Or maybe even tools like Point Oven, which can make working in multiple applications, easier..... A single file format shared throughout 3D applications.
But of course, this also bring a whole slew of problems.

I don't think LW does to badly for dynamics and soft bodies..
Considering that the others don't offer this in the base versions.
Yeah LW9's coming and we are all restless.....

I think the days of a single application, that can reach all corners of 3D is over... This 3D game is worth billions more than it was 3 years ago....
Yet all the software is worth a lot less... :)