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pauland
11-27-2005, 06:00 AM
.. to incorporate LWCAD 2.0 tools?

http://www.wtools3d.com/index.php?strana=lwcad2

evenflcw
11-27-2005, 06:19 AM
NT shouldn't delay for nothing by now, except bad bugs that haven't been squashed. Although I think LWCAD and LWCAD2 is an awsome set of tools, I don't think NT should incorporate them. NT mustn't rely on 3rd party to do all their work. They need to do some of the work themselves and LW needs to evolve through one vision, not several. Otherwise workflow will suffer because all tools will behave differently. Tools are too diversified as it is. If NT incorporate LWCAD they should rewrite all native functions to work the same way (lots of viewport gizmos and "saturated" functionality). I'd love for that to happen, but I doubt NT would do such a thing. We also don't know what LW9 will be capable of, which is another reason not to incorporate any tools written on LW8.

Pavlov
11-27-2005, 06:57 AM
NT shouldn't delay for nothing by now, except bad bugs that haven't been squashed. Although I think LWCAD and LWCAD2 is an awsome set of tools, I don't think NT should incorporate them. NT mustn't rely on 3rd party to do all their work. They need to do some of the work themselves and LW needs to evolve through one vision, not several. Otherwise workflow will suffer because all tools will behave differently. Tools are too diversified as it is. If NT incorporate LWCAD they should rewrite all native functions to work the same way (lots of viewport gizmos and "saturated" functionality). I'd love for that to happen, but I doubt NT would do such a thing. We also don't know what LW9 will be capable of, which is another reason not to incorporate any tools written on LW8.

Sorry, i disagree.
Osnap is a *must* for a serious 3D tool from years, and LW has not one.
If NT team does not have time to program it, it should seriuosly make a deal with LWCAD developer, or Pictrix, or maybe both, to integrate their excellent engines at core level (by now they're just good tools, but i cannot use Osnap with every Modeler's tool).
Most 3D users laugh at LW because some "holes" here and there (a lot of, honestly), and Osnap is one of the first things they point at.
I hope new team will bring even a new philosophy (and there are several signs of this, fortunately), old NT school - we do all ourselves and in our way - cannot work any more, if it ever did.
Coperation and even merging are the way to go, now more than ever if they want to survive to the "monster" Autodesk+Alias.

Paolo Zambrini

Dodgy
11-27-2005, 07:21 AM
Osnap is a *must* for a serious 3D tool from years, and LW has not one.

What? I've been doing serious 3d for 10 years now and never even heard of Osnap till now. My whole career has been invalidated!

I snap to a point on an object.. is that what you mean?

As I have said over and over, Lightwave has as many holes as maya, max, xsi. I've not seen ANY package which doesn't. I use maya professionally and I swear at it as much as I like it.


cannot work any more, if it ever did.

Please stop using such inflammatory language, it's pointless and makes me doubt your own opinion's validity. Obviously someone's making it work, something's cleaning up at the emmys year after year.

If you want all that stuff, buy LWcad tools. They look really nice, and I might be tempted, but don't insist we have to wait for 9 because they're must have, because they aren't.

Gettarobox
11-27-2005, 07:36 AM
I want LW to be as good as it can be, and can see how LWcad can help but I am more of an organic modeller so I can live with out it. If they don't put it in now (as part of the core) would it not work so well as a plugin?

evenflcw
11-27-2005, 07:38 AM
I'd love for NT to partner up and truely integrate any usefull function from any 3rd party tool. But...

"but i cannot use Osnap with every Modeler's tool"
You already know the issues. This is exactly why NT should refreain from incorporating more 3rd party tools (for now). They are only shortterm solutions. Unfortunatly NT has been quite happy giving us shortterm solutions in the past and it needs to stop! NT needs to work on it's core. We both agree that snapping features should not be part of individual tools, but a global service that any tool can utilize.

"integrate their excellent engines at core level "
Up until recently "integrating" in NT lingo has mostly meant "just slap it on". If they would truely integrate features of 3rd party tools I would have no problem with a delay and NT stricking more deals. Easier said than done, I'm sure.

Yog
11-27-2005, 08:00 AM
I don't think NT should delay LW-9 for the inclussion of the CAD Tools.
I don't think NT should include them for LW-10, but I think there is a very good chance they will try.

Over the years I have purchased many 3rd party LW plug-ins, but there have been very many more that I did not. This meant that I only paid for the tools that I needed.
It is also one of the main reasons I was so hacked off with LW-8's "new" Modeler tools. I had either purchased many of them already, or had got them through free download, only to have to "purchase" them again when upgrading to LW-8.

Sadly since LW-6, NT purchasing other peoples work has been the main method of updating Modeler, which is why I strongly suspect CAD-Tools will form the "new" and "innotave" tools at the heart of LW-10.

cresshead
11-27-2005, 08:12 AM
as nice as they are...you can get the same tools in corel Draw essentials for £40 and a 2 drawing program..then export as an ai file or eps to lightwave...

also not having these tools doesn't mean you can't create the same things in lightwave..you can..it just take a little longer and deeper understanding of the tools in lightwave.

now...if you were asking about a reusable mo cap rig that had full featured key reduction and layered animation workspce that you could use on characters theni'd say 'yeah' hold 9 till they were 'in'..... :)

steve g

Hoopti
11-27-2005, 12:49 PM
I own the current version of LWCAD tools, not because they are a "must have" in order to do the work in LW (I've done the work for years before they came out) but because they simply make it faster.

Now I'm not a beta-tester for version 2.0 of LWCAD, but the things on it are exciting, and I'm sure I'll get it when it comes out. I use them not just for CAD work, but for organic modeling as well. They are excellent spline tools.

However, there are other changes in the 9.0 that excite me just as much, but I do have the ability to get LWCAD into LW, it's called buying LWCAD, and giving the programmers their due. Will NT ultimately incorporate this into LW? Who knows, but it's available when they bring it out (spring of 06 according to the website) and can be incorporated into the program. You can incoporate the current version of LWCAD into 8.5 right now as well.

Sounds like this is a thread that should be titled "I want my LWCAD free by including it in 9.x".

Gaze
11-27-2005, 01:30 PM
How long is req'd to incorporate/test these snaps? I mean, is it a 3 week task, or more like 3 months?

If just a few weeks, it's hard to understand the reluctance to add such rudimentary 3D tools...that can be so helpful to many users :stumped:
As a new LW user, I must say I was disappointed to discover this basic shortcoming. Snaps have been part of many other modellers since the '80s.

Mylenium
11-27-2005, 01:32 PM
.. to incorporate LWCAD 2.0 tools?

http://www.wtools3d.com/index.php?strana=lwcad2

Well, you're leaning quite a bit out of the window with that statement. Though I'd love to at least some stuff again in LW's modeler and tools such as LWCAD would go a long way towards this, it's not the most crucial thing at this point. It's nice and interactive, but I can do quite a bit of the stuff in Illustrator and extrude the resulting profiles in modo. For the time being this is an acceptable workaround. However, in the future it might be an excelelnt idea to implement a lot of that stuff natively in LW or include all Pictrix and LWCAD plugins from the start. For v9 there is already enough new stuff in terms of introducing edges and n-gon SDS (plus of course all the stuff in Layout) and I'd say it would be better to give users time to get used to that new type of workflow first. There's a good chance that some of the workarounds we currently need to use well already be resolved by this and then even such cool tools as LWCAD will need to be re-evaluated for their usefulness and feature set.

Mylenium

Lewis
11-27-2005, 01:38 PM
NO, NO and NO

No more delays for anything :). LW 9.0 must continue as predicted. Afterall how they can delay LW 9.0 for including of LWCAd tools if they aren't for sell? Who said that company who produced plugin want's to sell it to NewTek or that NewTEK is interested or willing to pay for it ??

Just my 2 cents :).

UnCommonGrafx
11-27-2005, 01:48 PM
ummmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm..........


What a notion!
:thumbsdow


Somewhere, someday, someone said that an engineer at NT showed off nurbs as he/she was tired of not having them implemented.


I'd just rather see them implement what they have.
To hold off [9] for this would be not only sub-intelligent but sub-economically worthy.

A silly notion, at best.

pauland
11-27-2005, 03:34 PM
Thanks Robert.

Silkrooster
11-27-2005, 03:48 PM
I had to vote no as well. I would love to see these features implemented whether from LWCAD or from NT programmers, but I don't think it is worth holding back ver 9 for. I can wait for a later version or buy them myself if I really need them.
Silk

Verlon
11-27-2005, 04:54 PM
after all the flames about LW8 (l-W8, L8 etc), I think a delay woudl be very bad. I would like to have the tools, but could hardly say I NEED them.

I would rather have LW9 on time, thank you.

UnCommonGrafx
11-27-2005, 04:56 PM
My biggest dream has been that some of these CRAZY programmers doing outlandish things are but Balloon companies for NT to check on users demands. You know, make a little money while doing research....

There are a few people talking NURBS for LW, not just Sensei.


I say, hold off on [9] ONLY IF it will incorporate the newest of innovations. NURBS ain't it. I hope I get Rhino in [9].
chuckling to self...


As LightWave is in this ReWrite mode, there is very little reason for us NOT to get everything (or a reasonable facsimilie) that ALL other 3D apps have today. At that juncture, it will be the other softs trying to 'catch-up' to LW, once again. Until the next round of papers. :stumped: NewTek has shown that they can read and impliment such theory so we shouldn't have to fall behind later, either.

Wickster
11-27-2005, 05:03 PM
I'm good for a delay (looks around for any flying rocks and eggs). As long as they:

1. LWCAD doesn't introduce any new issues/bugs to modeler.
2. NT releases a patch between :lwicon:8.5 and :lwicon:9, fixing serious issues/bugs like the ones in bug workshop thread.
3.When you mean delay, you mean a few weeks, not months.

or

4. How about LWCAD in 9.2 or something.

(feels shiver down spine for giving opinion)

pauland
11-27-2005, 05:10 PM
3.When you mean delay, you mean a few weeks, not months.

(feels shiver down spine for giving opinion)

Absolutely. It just seemed that LWCAD was adding quite important basic stuff to LW. LW10 seems too far off and though people can buy LWCAD, it seems like rather important stuff, particularly for Archi users is waiting there begging to be incorporated.

I know people can buy LWCAD, but that won't raise LW game for the basic package.

It was just an idea and it certainly raised some debate, even if most of it was to continue onward as is.

Exception
11-27-2005, 07:29 PM
Is there even mention of this?
I like LWCAD ad all, and think Osnap is indeed overdue for LW, especially the engineering and arch vis section, but what are we talking about here?
Where did who say that this was a possibility?

although... LWCAD is very expensive, and it would be nice to have that functionality at last...

pauland
11-28-2005, 01:13 AM
Is there even mention of this?
I like LWCAD ad all, and think Osnap is indeed overdue for LW, especially the engineering and arch vis section, but what are we talking about here?
Where did who say that this was a possibility?

although... LWCAD is very expensive, and it would be nice to have that functionality at last...

No, there is no mention by Newtek of this. I thought it would provoke an interesting debate about the LWCAD tools and their absence from LWs toolset and indeed the possibility of including them in LW9.

Pavlov
11-28-2005, 02:23 AM
some precisations:
i love LW as most of you, but honestly these "holes" are now too many and too deep.
Osnap is not a Viz artist's wish only, but a basic tool which for no reason can be overlooked any more - along with many other tools.
I'm earning living from LW too, but i recognize some "un-pro" points in LW at the same time.
Again: when i say "integrate" i mean, well, integrate. We all know how NT "integrated" things until now.
They want to survive, so things seems to have changed; "integrate" now must mean "take the core engine of a tool, insert it into LW core engines and make it run "underlevel" and in cooperative mode with all other tools".
If integrating means a delay, i'm ok for that, unless we're talking of several months.


Paolo Zambrini

BeeVee
11-28-2005, 02:53 AM
Aren't the snap tools free plug-ins included in the LWCAD set anyway? So even if you decide not to buy LWCAD at the end of the trial period you can continue using the snap tools?

B

pauland
11-28-2005, 03:10 AM
Aren't the snap tools free plug-ins included in the LWCAD set anyway? So even if you decide not to buy LWCAD at the end of the trial period you can continue using the snap tools?

B

That doesn't really compensate for the fact that this functionality isn't in the core product. I don't think Newtek should be saying "Get this functionality by using a developers free trial".

W-Tools
11-28-2005, 05:37 AM
Dear LightWave users.

LW9 mustn’t be delayed from any reason, not even my tools.

My official statement about this issue is:
LWCAD will be not incorporated into LightWave 9.

Only one way how to incorporate my tools into LW now is buying them.
I think I have a fair update policy. http://www.wtools3d.com./index.php?strana=order
And no user can be afraid about paying for my tools twice.
If LWCAD tools will be unified with LightWave toolset in future, then every my user will be compensated. I will not sign any agreement with NT without that.

At this moment, it is really bad timing for discussion like this. Please let NT team finish their work. They working very hard and I will do the same on my side.

Anyway, thank you all for your support. :)
It will be really big help for me when I will talk again with Jay Roth about my position in NT team.

BTW: Partial preview 2 will show you the strongest weapon of the LWCAD 2 tools. NURBS curves and advanced osnap engine are no the main weapon of the LWCAD 2 tools.

---------------------------
Viktor Velicko
W-Tools
www.wtools3d.com

pauland
11-28-2005, 06:04 AM
I'd suggest closing down the poll (and thread?) - it's shown a level of interest in the LWCAD tools functionality and I think it's just about run it's course. Good luck to you Viktor.

Paul

W-Tools
11-28-2005, 06:59 AM
I'd suggest closing down the poll (and thread?) - it's shown a level of interest in the LWCAD tools functionality and I think it's just about run it's course. Good luck to you Viktor.

Paul

Yes you can close the poll, but please keep this thread. It is very good feedback for me.
Thanks.
---------------------------
Viktor Velicko
W-Tools
www.wtools3d.com

Pavlov
11-28-2005, 07:31 AM
What? I've been doing serious 3d for 10 years now and never even heard of Osnap till now. My whole career has been invalidated!

I snap to a point on an object.. is that what you mean?

As I have said over and over, Lightwave has as many holes as maya, max, xsi. I've not seen ANY package which doesn't. I use maya professionally and I swear at it as much as I like it.
Please stop using such inflammatory language, it's pointless and makes me doubt your own opinion's validity. Obviously someone's making it work, something's cleaning up at the emmys year after year.
If you want all that stuff, buy LWcad tools. They look really nice, and I might be tempted, but don't insist we have to wait for 9 because they're must have, because they aren't.

Dodgy, i have overlooked your post before, let me give you some answers.
Please understand i'm not starting ant flame here, just want to explain and give all feedback i can to NT.
I make 3D for 15 years and i've used professionally many tools, from LW to Alias Studio, from Rhino to 3DS (version 4 and Max).
I think i know 3d arena very well; i have some precise reasons to say Osnap is a must.
You're right when you mention lots of emmies, but remember they were almost all in FX area, where such tools are not needed.
Now times have changed a lot. LW is not any more the only way, and to be honest FX is dominated by Maya hands down, and other tools have become very competitive lately.
So can LW survive if it remains a FX-oriented tool ? Imho, it cannot. It has to become pro on other areas.
There are many pro-areas out there, and if american market is VFX mostly, remember that Europe has a *huge* VIZ userbase.
When i mean huge let me tell this: i live in a 60000 citizens town, and here there are 5 Viz firms - the same, proportionally, in every other city in Italy, germany, France etc. Useless to say... mostly Max, some Cinema, a few LW.
So, Visualization (architecture, mechanic, scientific, design, etc) is something NT should really take care of, along as even other areas.
If you can model a good spaceship or a taronesque character without osnap, doing precise modeling without it is a pain.
This is the reason i say Osnap (and other tools) are *now* a must. Maybe they were not in the past, but my pov is now they are.
I also teach LW and i know a lot of people starting 3D in universities and privately. 90% of them are VIz oriented. Guess what, lack of Osnap and good I/O tools (along with other things) keep them away from LW. This means *thousands* of licenses for LW every year in Italy alone.
Again: i'm an architect, and i asked my university to teach LW. I've good references here, but the answer was "sorry, we're getting 50 Cinema licenses because it allow for better comunication with Cad tools and has better precise modeling". Beside these 50 licenses, Ferrara's university spits out about 200 architects every year. They're trained in Cinema, and they will go Cinema route in their activities. I'm going to make some proposals for VIZ courses to other younger universities, now that we have LWCAD LW will become a bit more credible in this area. If their answer will be positive it will help LW sell several hundred of licenses in nex years. With Fprime+Kray LW has some strong points on Viz area; but the lack of fundamental tools like Osnap and DWG import may make their heads turn in other directions.
This is why these tools are a must. I my private experience alone, i saw directly how the lack of these stopped NT to sell thousand (literally) of licenses.
If you love LW and if you care about the future of the tool you use for living, i hope you will agree that given these facts, these tools are now needed.

Regards,
Paolo Zambrini

-EsHrA-
11-28-2005, 07:37 AM
hmm, since the newsletter notes the extended offer, it seems lw9 will allready be delayed?!..


mlon

xid3d
11-28-2005, 09:44 AM
LW 8.5(32) and LW 8.5(64) just released.

And now we're worried that 9.0 will not be released soon?
****, you guys are quick! I just got my Athon 64 X2 and LW(64) up and running and i though I was on top of it this time.

To be honest, I'm not in a hurry to start bug hunting a new 9.0.

As far as 3rd party suport, I think it's great that Relativity is included, ( I finally bought Relativity, some months ago, and I say more power to Prem, he deserves it anyway.)

? dam* is a bad word? lol

Stooch
11-28-2005, 09:47 AM
What a horrible way to ask for a feature. you started a poll to do something extremely horrible for some - just to advance your personal demands? I didnt even bother voting. There is a much better way to approach this in the feature request forum, not to mention that you want to basically put the creator of lwcad out of business.

smooth move.

Dodgy
11-28-2005, 10:32 AM
So can LW survive if it remains a FX-oriented tool ? Imho, it cannot. It has to become pro on other areas.

Why does it seem that way? Because you use it for CAD? It started off as a tool for film and TV and has been successful in those areas, and is still successful. I'm not anywhere near disagreeing with you that these tools are very VERY useful if you do cad, but I'm heavily disagreeing with you that LW will die without them. They are out there if you need that functionality, the guy who works on them won't work any faster if he's part of NT or not, and he may make more money than if he goes with NT. So why are you so unwilling to part with your cash to fund him?

There are a lot of packages out there that survive and even do very well out of being a certain thing for certain people. XSI has no foot hold in CAD but they seem to do alright. Renderman is doing very well in the render market and so on and so on.

LW will improve in this area presumably, NT have said since they're extracting the modelling core than all the tools will be looked at and streamlined and boosted where needed, but I see no reason for the release of 9 to be halted for one set of tools which are ALREADY being independently developed to be dragged into LW.

Matt
11-28-2005, 12:41 PM
I own LWCAD, and LWCAD v2 looks absolutely awesome, but unless _every_tool in LW took advantage of the snapping abilities LWCAD v2 offers I'd say leave everything be at the moment.

Having said that though, I'd love to see LWCAD v2 incorporated _fully_ at core level and I personally wouldn't be annoyed if it was suddenly made free in a future version of LW, even after paying for the earlier version.

Speaking as a product designer, LWCAD v2 looks to be one of the most important tools for the kind of work I do. It's right up there with FPrime in my book!

Viktor, are you any closer to giving an idea when v2 will be available?

Regards
Matt

Mylenium
11-28-2005, 12:47 PM
Why does it seem that way? Because you use it for CAD? It started off as a tool for film and TV and has been successful in those areas, and is still successful. I'm not anywhere near disagreeing with you that these tools are very VERY useful if you do cad, but I'm heavily disagreeing with you that LW will die without them. They are out there if you need that functionality, the guy who works on them won't work any faster if he's part of NT or not, and he may make more money than if he goes with NT. So why are you so unwilling to part with your cash to fund him?

That may be true, but then the question becomes: Can LW hold up to other FX-oriented programs? And in many areas it simply can't. Yes, the renderer is nice and produces excellent results once you know how to handle it, but in the same way it is buggy and requires a lot of workarounds. The same can be said for many other areas like character animation, scene/ asset management, dynamics and so on. Many companies that once were 100% loyal to LW already have established dual pipelines or moved to other apps entirely and this is a tendency that even LW 9 won't stop.

Now you could ignore all this and say "I don't care." but still it's somewhat stupid of NT to ignore the viz-market so much like they do today. There are some main reasons:

a) It's about 50 times as huge as the entire fx market. There's a lot of demand for it in production planning, analysis, actual visualization of the product, advertising and illustration of manuals, for instance.

b) It is a market with a constant cash flow. This means people will be more able and willing to buy upgrades and even service contracts/ subscriptions (the thing that makes Autodesk rich) whereas in the fx arena investments often hinge on the budget of a particular production.

c) It is a market that can be satisfied rather easily - implement features properly once (large scene handling, material presets, fast rendering, radiosity, CAD import, NURBS etc.) and make everything work smoothly, and after that all you have to worry about is keep your importers up to specs and your app bug free. You will never be asked to implement any of the eye candy required in the fx industry. Stability and reliability are much more important.

You see, there are good reasons to at least consider. Sure, LW could survive without "branching out" but then it would simply be "yet another app" after its merits it has earned so far have faded away. You cannot want it to become a program like TrueSpace, Animation Master, Real 3D or Carrara of which those of us, who consider themselves professionals, only think of at second thought. They are all powerful 3D programs and offer features that LW lacks somewhat (like the Hair/ Fur in Real 3D), but be honest - would you consider switching over to them? You have your reasons why you stick with LW as do I (for the time being) but that does not mean I want to stick with an LW that inhibits itself simply because the dev team take a broader view.

Lastly, and I do not want to start a war here, there are enough other areas where LW could/ should gain a foothold for its own good.

Mylenium

Pavlov
11-28-2005, 01:55 PM
Why does it seem that way? Because you use it for CAD? It started off as a tool for film and TV and has been successful in those areas, and is still successful. I'm not anywhere near disagreeing with you that these tools are very VERY useful if you do cad, but I'm heavily disagreeing with you that LW will die without them.

hi,
let me be more precise on one point: i dont use LW as cad.
I do Viz but also animation, and doing Viz in nowhere near to "cad" usage.
People working in viz know that there's much art and creation here too, so i use LW as a full visualization tool, not as a cad (in fact my other concerns are about render engine).
If you dont do viz, i can ensure that LW without 3rd party tools is *very* obsolete for some tasks.


____
They are out there if you need that functionality, the guy who works on them won't work any faster if he's part of NT or not, and he may make more money than if he goes with NT. So why are you so unwilling to part with your cash to fund him?
____

Buying LWcad is in my plans; i'm doing several animations (not only viz stuff this time) and i'll not be back on modeling myself until feb. So i decided to wait some time to see what happened with rel.9. By now it's a wonderful tool, but i'd like Osnap running at bottom level to use it with every tool.

___
There are a lot of packages out there that survive and even do very well out of being a certain thing for certain people. XSI has no foot hold in CAD but they seem to do alright. Renderman is doing very well in the render market and so on and so on.
___

XSI has a good Osnap toolset, better I/O tools and a first class render engine with one of the best GI agorithms out there.
It's a first class, object oriented, cleanly programmed tool.
It can be stronger here and weaker there, but to be honest generally speaking it's more powerful than LW 8.x.

____
LW will improve in this area presumably, NT have said since they're extracting the modelling core than all the tools will be looked at and streamlined and boosted where needed, but I see no reason for the release of 9 to be halted for one set of tools which are ALREADY being independently developed to be dragged into LW
____

The difference is that LWcad alone is good, but integrated would be much more.
I agree 9 should ship asap; anyway, if it shipped a month later but with a competitive Viz toolset, imho it would get more attention in some ambients/areas.
It should ship soon but also be a complete and "new" tool, remember 9 is like a new birth for LW.

bye
Paolo

Pavlov
11-28-2005, 02:06 PM
a) It's about 50 times as huge as the entire fx market. There's a lot of demand for it in production planning, analysis, actual visualization of the product, advertising and illustration of manuals, for instance.

b) It is a market with a constant cash flow. This means people will be more able and willing to buy upgrades and even service contracts/ subscriptions (the thing that makes Autodesk rich) whereas in the fx arena investments often hinge on the budget of a particular production.

c) It is a market that can be satisfied rather easily - implement features properly once (large scene handling, material presets, fast rendering, radiosity, CAD import, NURBS etc.) and make everything work smoothly, and after that all you have to worry about is keep your importers up to specs and your app bug free. You will never be asked to implement any of the eye candy required in the fx industry. Stability and reliability are much more important.


Exactly.
Some people (NT too) would be surprised of how larger this market is in comparison on FX one.
Again, starting and running an FX firm is dangerous these times, here in Europe even more.
Viz is required daily, in many aspects and from many different clients. So there are more and more people starting doing Viz, and most of them dont consider LW because of things like previously discussed ones.
Lets hope NT understands that small firms or even single people working on 3D are as important as large firms, because they could make LW sells become several times larger than now with some proper moves.
This would of course benefit everyone; more money, more resources, more tools and development for LW in all directions.
Even FX artists would benefit from LW selling more licenses, but this strong enlargement wont happen ignoring viz area.

Paolo Zambrini

nthused
11-28-2005, 02:10 PM
At this moment, it is really bad timing for discussion like this. Please let NT team finish their work. They working very hard and I will do the same on my side.

Anyway, thank you all for your support. :)
It will be really big help for me when I will talk again with Jay Roth about my position in NT team.

BTW: Partial preview 2 will show you the strongest weapon of the LWCAD 2 tools. NURBS curves and advanced osnap engine are no the main weapon of the LWCAD 2 tools.

---------------------------
Viktor Velicko
W-Tools
www.wtools3d.com

I've just purchased LWCAD - must say, Victor...makes me love LW even more than I did before. Thank you so much for your work - it's a wonderful plugin and I cannot wait for Ver.2

pauland
11-28-2005, 04:34 PM
What a horrible way to ask for a feature. you started a poll to do something extremely horrible for some - just to advance your personal demands? I didnt even bother voting. There is a much better way to approach this in the feature request forum, not to mention that you want to basically put the creator of lwcad out of business.

smooth move.

Rather an odd interpretation. I put the poll up basically because I thought there was a genuine window to make it happen. The poll at least, gauges some level of interest and although the big majority don't want LW9 delayed in any way, the poll shows there is good support for LWCAD type tools to go into the product.

As far as trying to put the devloper out of business, I thought he might actually get a nice deal going with newtek since he's done such great work. I saw it as a win-win situation for Newtek and the developer and I still do.

I didn't make any demands, I just asked a question. The real point is that I think that Newtek should be adding in this functionality to LW and this seems the easy way to do it - looks like the team are busy enough elsewhere at the moment.

Thanks for the Smooth move compliment. Glad you agree.

Stooch
11-28-2005, 04:37 PM
Thanks for the Smooth move compliment. Glad you agree.

:rolleyes:

I can see making a suggestion in the suggestion forum.

I agree that the creator can benefit from the inmplementation, fine.

but to delay v9 just because you want this feature??? :thumbsdow

anyway the creator himself stated that he has no intent on being integrated, so that kind of defeats the whole poll.....

pauland
11-28-2005, 04:48 PM
anyway the creator himself stated that he has no intent on being integrated, so that kind of defeats the whole poll.....

He doesn't say that at all. he says the only way now to get the LWCAD functionality is to buy LWCAD. He's made an interesting comment about his relationship with NT.

In any event, the whole thing is over with. If you didn't like what I did, so be it.

Dodgy
11-28-2005, 06:24 PM
XSI has a good Osnap toolset, better I/O tools and a first class render engine with one of the best GI agorithms out there.
It's a first class, object oriented, cleanly programmed tool.
It can be stronger here and weaker there, but to be honest generally speaking it's more powerful than LW 8.x.

Why are you still here then? It's not any kind of taunt, it's a simple question. XSI offers you all this, but you're still here, so what is the reason? Doesn't foundation or essentials give you all that you need? I'm fairly clear on why I'm still here, LW gives me all I need for now, and I prefer the way it works most of the time to the other packages I've used (and don't think I haven't tried most of them :) ) If there was something out there that I found more agreeable, I'd be outta here.


That may be true, but then the question becomes: Can LW hold up to other FX-oriented programs? And in many areas it simply can't. Yes, the renderer is nice and produces excellent results once you know how to handle it, but in the same way it is buggy and requires a lot of workarounds. The same can be said for many other areas like character animation, scene/ asset management, dynamics and so on. Many companies that once were 100% loyal to LW already have established dual pipelines or moved to other apps entirely and this is a tendency that even LW 9 won't stop.

In my experience, the biggest jump came when max/maya came out, and lw was still on 5.6/6.0. A lot of people got burned by 6, and 5.6 didn't have anywhere near the power those two had at the time. LW didn't really get much better or stabler at least till the 7 cycle, so companies have had a long while to settle in and get used to their quirks, and boy do they have them. I'm not talking from 5 mins usage, I use Maya day in and day out, and there isn't an artist who doesn't swear at it in the building. There are complaints about the renderer, modelling, animation, every part of it, just like there are with LW, so don't think for one moment that LW is alone in having it's problems and that maya and max users are in nirvana. On other forums max and maya users are forever contemplating complete rewrites, just like here, which makes me think maybe forums are places for people to ask for them. People are still writing modelling tools and plugins to patch max and maya's holes, and often charging a far heaftier price tag for them than most of LW's plugins. I've done stuff in LW that I've found no way of doing in maya, in all it's areas, dynamics, rendering whatever. That's not to say Maya doesn't have it's abilities too, but you seem to be slating it ALL maya's way, when that simply isn't the case.

As to LW 9 stopping switching, it is going to be darn hard, but then these companies have a huge time and money investment (think of all those $7000 Complete licences which suddenly became $2000, that's gotta be hard to forget :)) and workflow lock ins.

I wasn't arguing against adding functionality, I'd be happy with whatever NT threw in on top of what we're already getting, but I see no point waiting for tools which can be bought now, or even gotten for free, and without building the total cost up to max or maya's price point. And while LW is good, it wasn't really built from a cad standpoint. That's why max with its parent Autodesk, the biggest provider of cad software in the world, finds it much easier going. NT are working hard at pulling out the features, trying to reorganise LW into a more cohesive whole for writing these features, and I can't see much point in berating LW for not being a cad monster yet.

Pavlov said LW was in a deep feature hole, and I simply stated that other packages have just as big holes. Max is as labyrinthine as it is feature rich, whilst maya has a derth of modelling tools and no end of workflow problems. Their strengths play to the particular markets they do well in, whilst LW has struggled recently, but it certainly isn't going to die without such and such a feature. If it gets a lack of a lot of features, then it's going to take a pounding, but then if you think that's the case you might as well go buy another package and get caught up on it. If you think LW isn't dead, or even <shock horror> that it's punching above its weight, then why bad mouth it? If you see a weakness make a feature request and get on with life. If you find a bug, report it and don't hold it up as yet another reason to hate LW. There's no point. If you're saying that, you might as well get up and go. There are other packages out there, some cheaper, some more expensive. Find one you love and save up for it. Even the most expensive packages have cheaper versions, mostly not horrifically hobbled. I just don't see the point of using language like 'So can LW survive' 'Most 3D users laugh at LW' 'cannot work any more, if it ever did' and staying. Most users I've shown LW to have gone 'Oh it's still around?' but then after showing them what I've done with this 'ancient' package have been impressed.

Anyway, time for bed.

Wickster
11-28-2005, 09:20 PM
I'm sure LW 9 could be released early with Osnap integrated without delay...After all that's all what I'm after. But since its not listed on the LW 9 feature list, I'm guessing its still not there, though I've rquested it sooo many times.

This is also the main reason I'm waiting for LWCAD 2.0 to come out, and probably buy it when it does. NURBS is just an extra bonus for me. I work with AutoCAD at work and LW at home so ? OSnap has grown quite useful to me.

By the way Viktor, If I buy LWCAD 1.5 now do I get a free update to 2.0 when released? Thanks.

Mylenium
11-29-2005, 02:39 AM
In my experience, the biggest jump came when max/maya came out, and lw was still on 5.6/6.0. A lot of people got burned by 6, and 5.6 didn't have anywhere near the power those two had at the time. LW didn't really get much better or stabler at least till the 7 cycle, so companies have had a long while to settle in and getused to their quirks, and boy do they have them. I'm not talking from 5 mins usage, I use Maya day in and day out, and there isn't an artist who doesn't swear at it in the building. There are complaints about the renderer, modelling, animation, every part of it, just like there are with LW, so don't think for one moment that LW is alone in having it's problems and that maya and max users are in nirvana.

I'm not saying that everything is roses in other user bases (have used Maya and C4D for a long time) but, and I'm sure you will agree, those users at least have a >>>choice<<<. A choice of approaching the same problem with different solutions. The choice of expanding their creativity by using expressions and scripts that do not require you to be an programming wizard (as in LW; LScript is powerful but too bloated and buried). The choice of getting at least 2 or 3 different plugins/ extensions/ modules for hair, cloth, rendering and so on whereas we in LW land are stuck with what the few geniuses like Worley, Pictrix, Happy Digital and a few others provide. However, even their stuff begins to look old compared how some develeopments in the industry progress (guess why everybody is yearning for a better Sasquatch) That is a major difference and that is the thing that will be LW's problem for quite a while in the future.

Mylenium

Pavlov
11-29-2005, 02:41 AM
Why are you still here then? It's not any kind of taunt, it's a simple question. XSI offers you all this, but you're still here, so what is the reason? Doesn't foundation or essentials give you all that you need? I'm fairly clear on why I'm still here, LW gives me all I need for now, and I prefer the way it works most of the time to the other packages I've used (and don't think I haven't tried most of them :) ) If there was something out there that I found more agreeable, I'd be outta here

If you're in production you'll understand.. i'm very proficent with LW, using *tons* of workarounds, rhino for i/o, providential plugs t do things that must be basic.
If i change, it will take a long time to be as productive as now, and lot of efforts which i cannot afford now since i should "freeze" my production for months or study something other in the nights (i already work on lot of them..). I know Max but i dont like to work in it, even if it has a monster toolset. I should learn Maya, now that Vray is on the doors, or Cinema (but it would be quite a "side-step").
In a few words: i dont have the time, and add the fact i'm anyway satisfied with my results. I know for sure i could get them in half the time or in more pro-ways, in some cases... so i ask for things which can improve my work (and thousand's one too).


There are complaints about the renderer, modelling, animation, every part of it, just like there are with LW, so don't think for one moment that LW is alone in having it's problems and that maya and max users are in nirvana. On other forums max and maya users are forever contemplating complete rewrites, just like here, which makes me think maybe forums are places for people to ask for them.

Agree there, but remember this: they're already used to a more powerful tool. This does not mean it's perfect, therefore they ask for improvement. Dont want to raise an app war, but Max's modeling toolset crushes LW hand down; despite this, it has its limitations and holes. LW has many, many more... anyway prices are not casual ;)


People are still writing modelling tools and plugins to patch max and maya's holes, and often charging a far heaftier price tag for them than most of LW's plugins. I've done stuff in LW that I've found no way of doing in maya, in all it's areas, dynamics, rendering whatever. That's not to say Maya doesn't have it's abilities too, but you seem to be slating it ALL maya's way, when that simply isn't the case.

If it seems so, i apologize; i thought i was very clear in my statements.
I love LW and i'm too proficent in LW to think about a change uless it's *really* necessary.
I'm happy whith what i get, but on tools i stress more in my work, modeling and rendering, i find limitation better than, say, FX people, who will find animation issues better than me.
These limitations are sometimes light or workaround-able, sometimes the hole is so deep, unmotivated and overlooked that i simply cannot, as veteran user, avoid to mention loudly here.


I wasn't arguing against adding functionality, I'd be happy with whatever NT threw in on top of what we're already getting, but I see no point waiting for tools which can be bought now, or even gotten for free, and without building the total cost up to max or maya's price point.

OK i know - but as i stated, having it running at core level is better. I'll repeat, in my experience i find it a must these days.


And while LW is good, it wasn't really built from a cad standpoint. That's why max with its parent Autodesk, the biggest provider of cad software in the world, finds it much easier going. NT are working hard at pulling out the features, trying to reorganise LW into a more cohesive whole for writing these features, and I can't see much point in berating LW for not being a cad monster yet.

I truly appreciate NT *recent* work; anyway they're not only reorganizing, but also adding lot of features. Imho, Osnap and other should be high in the priority list.
LW origins are wellknown, but amiga is *dead* (snif), and FX world is not the same of 10 years ago. LW has not grown accordingly, and since now it seems to take some new life, it's crucial it does in the right direction.
LW is not a complete Viz tool ? My clear and clean pov is: today it must, it would be a huge good for all.
I hope you understand i'm not talking about my needing only.
My market observations here in Europe force me to say that Viz is the main way to go these days. Beside other targets, the great attention of Max, Maya, Cinema about Viz has a very precise reason: it's *the* market today.


Their strengths play to the particular markets they do well in, whilst LW has struggled recently, but it certainly isn't going to die without such and such a feature. If it gets a lack of a lot of features, then it's going to take a pounding, but then if you think that's the case you might as well go buy another package and get caught up on it. If you think LW isn't dead, or even <shock horror> that it's punching above its weight, then why bad mouth it? If you see a weakness make a feature request and get on with life. If you find a bug, report it and don't hold it up as yet another reason to hate LW. There's no point. If you're saying that, you might as well get up and go.

I do a lot of freature requests; here we started form a tool request, but now we're talking more generally about market directions and the "shape" Lw should get in everyone's pov.
Some are FX oriented, some Viz. Some are happy and optimist, some see major needings. Despite some personal rants i think it's an interesting thread.


There are other packages out there, some cheaper, some more expensive. Find one you love and save up for it. Even the most expensive packages have cheaper versions, mostly not horrifically hobbled. I just don't see the point of using language like 'So can LW survive' 'Most 3D users laugh at LW' 'cannot work any more, if it ever did' and staying. Most users I've shown LW to have gone 'Oh it's still around?' but then after showing them what I've done with this 'ancient' package have been impressed.

Sure, i show Fprime to Max people and they're amazed. "But we've Vray".. so i show them some Kray works. Modeler is lighning fast and scene setup is easy.
But loving LW and using it from years is the reason i would like to see it in a better place, not in the forest of mid-level apps like carrara, Truespace, shade and so on.

back to work ;)

Paolo Zambrini

W-Tools
11-30-2005, 06:49 AM
to Matt:
Release is planed to spring 2006. As registered user you will be notified.

to Wickster:
No. About update policy please read here: http://www.wtools3d.com/index.php?strana=order

-------------------------------
Viktor Velicko
W-Tools
www.wtools3d.com

LightHeaded
11-30-2005, 08:27 AM
:question: Can you or someone please clarify pricing (below). So, if I don't own LWCAD now, and I pay $199 now, I get LWCAD2 in spring '06 for free?

Or how does that work?


--------------------------------------------------------
LWCAD update policy:

Update from previous version 1 to actual version 1.5 is free for all registered users.
In case that LightWave 9 will be available earlier than LWCAD 2, one more free update optimized for LW9 will be released.
If you are already registered and still don't have last version please use [email protected]

Update from version 1.5 to future version 2 will be paid.
Price for LWCAD 2 will be cumulative. But update will cost only difference between old and new version. If you are considering buy LWCAD now, you will pay the same price anyway.
Only owners of previous paid Cap Hole Studio version and actual LWCAD version have granted free update to LWCAD 2.

LW3D
12-14-2005, 05:46 AM
I think LW users don't want to wait for any more for new LightWave.. Because we have waited too much.

But I think NewTek must contact with all the 3rd parties and make LightWave 3D market better for them or buy the licenses and put them in LightWave3D. Because if 3rd parties want to developed tools for another software, we don't have a chance to use that power..

for example.. Joe Alter's Shave&Haircut released first for LightWave, but now it supports all the 3D software except LightWave. LWCAD 2.0 looks really great.. And I don't want to see, it for Modo...or any other 3D application...

pauland
12-14-2005, 05:59 AM
"for example.. Joe Alter's Shave&Haircut released first for LightWave, but now it supports all the 3D software except LightWave."

Not the best example - Joe went off in a huff when Steve Worley did a deal with Newtek on Sasquatch lite. He's been doing well in other areas as you say, but he left his LW users high and dry.

Paul

Nemoid
12-14-2005, 06:31 AM
IMO , adding Cad tools is not a valid reason to a delay of Lw 9.0.
Viktor said yet NT will not incorporate the upcoming version,at least, so, while i see these tools as an important adding to make of Lw w more modern app, and valid even for viz work, i'd say that Nt team shouòld at first complete the base /core work of Lw actually opening it at different possibilities, streamlinng the toolset, working on rendering and so on. Then they can start adding or better integrating third party solutions within the app.

I perfectly undertand that Viz market is huge, and that Lw will benefit from those tools, as it would benefit from the introduction of real NURBS tools too to add an example.

But the example could be valid also for CA tools. the fact is a general app should be quite valid at every area in which it can be involved, but at the same time it can't be 100% complete in every area , nor have no bug or hole.

Adding flexibility to the core and therefore allowing easier implementation of other tools in the future in the main job to make. so, with time also tools like Lw cad could be integrated at a base level into an easier way.

this is actually the case of an app like C4D which is growing and growing release from release because they projected it with easier possibilities to implement things in new modules. Same is for XSI.

pauland
12-14-2005, 06:56 AM
Wow - the dead threads break back into life!

I think it's clear from all concerned that the subject of the thread is dead and buried and it's done it's work.

Paul

Gettarobox
01-11-2006, 04:03 PM
i am for waiting. after seeing what LWCAD can do I would rather wait and get more since the upgrade to 9 will be free.

Celshader
01-11-2006, 04:44 PM
I won't buy LWCAD until I get enough precision work dumped on me to justify its $200 cost. LWCAD looks like a great tool, but right now I don't need it.

That said, I did take advantage of the current PICTRIX sale (http://www.pictrix.jp/lw/buy/index_e.html) on SP_Move2 (http://spinquad.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10225) -- that plug-in delivers an awful lot of Modeler snapping/precision goodness for $10.

Gaze
01-11-2006, 05:47 PM
Celshader,
Pictrix site says up to 14 days to deliver the activation code for that plugin :o ???
Curious how long it took to get your's. Same day I would hope.

Also, which LW ID# is required to activate. Is it the Lock ID#??

Thanks.

Celshader
01-11-2006, 06:05 PM
Celshader,
Pictrix site says up to 14 days to deliver the activation code for that plugin :o ???
Curious how long it took to get your's. Same day I would hope.

Also, which LW ID# is required to activate. Is it the Lock ID#??

Thanks.

For what it's worth, I got my copy of SP_Move2 within three hours of sending PICTRIX my "Order for Plug-In Software" email.

PICTRIX' "GetLWIDnumber.ls" LScript (from this page (http://www.pictrix.jp/lw/buy/index_e.html)) will tell you your LW ID#. (I think it's the Lock ID).

Gaze
01-11-2006, 06:23 PM
thanks, Cel

One more question, if I may...
Is the plugin in Japanese characters like in the demos?

Celshader
01-11-2006, 06:28 PM
Is the plugin in Japanese characters like in the demos?

Nope, Sp_Move2 has an English interface. :thumbsup: