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enzo80
11-27-2005, 05:44 AM
will they add these tools as permenant feature to LW, also that GI skin shader would be cool too :hey:

RedBull
11-27-2005, 07:53 PM
Lightwave 7+ already has a basic hair and fur system, via Sasquatch Lite:
Look in the manual.

enzo80
11-28-2005, 03:50 AM
we want the pro version who needs the basic :P

RedBull
11-28-2005, 12:48 PM
Worley did not want to sell Sasquatch full version,
And Newtek, most likely did not want to pay for it....

It would be nice, but you must remember LW's price as well....
To get S&H in Maya or XSI, you must pay for the unlimited, or advanced versions... So $4000, to $6000 just to get to the hair module.

Honestly even Sasquatch is starting to show it's age.....
I hope we see a Volumetric Sasquatch II, that's sold for $250.00

I do agree, that SasLite, was a bad idea......
Incorporating crippleware or lite versions, means LW hair could never be extended or updated or really used to it's potential.....

Emmanuel
11-30-2005, 08:43 AM
I still think that Saslite was a good basic hair/fur solution.
But the train has moved on, and other packages already get
way cheaper hair solutions.

enzo80
11-30-2005, 05:34 PM
hash animation master which is sold for 300$ has great hair fx and other cool stuff, if LW wont pay for sas, they can make their own like 3ds max did in ver 8

spirit_of_stars
11-30-2005, 08:51 PM
Autodesk/Discreet don't have made their own Hairs system... They have integrate Shave and HairCut from Joe Alter...

erikals
12-01-2005, 09:02 AM
Don't forget Meshpaint, cheaper.
Agree about what u say, but I'd rather see many other features first.

AbnRanger
12-03-2005, 09:40 PM
During the 30 day trial, I was able to play with 3ds Max 8's new Hair and Fur system...which is derived from Joe Alter's "Shave and Haircut ." I loved it. I wish LW would do some fence-mending with Joe and replace SasLite with his...and subsequently watch Mr. Worley's overpriced Sasquatch grow bald.
Maya, Max and XSI all have FULL systems. Granted, they all cost more, but maintaining a midget version puts LW in the back of the pack. The ONLY option being a full version that costs almost as much as :lwicon: itself doesn't help matters.

RedBull
12-03-2005, 10:46 PM
During the 30 day trial, I was able to play with 3ds Max 8's new Hair and Fur system...which is derived from Joe Alter's "Shave and Haircut ." I loved it. I wish LW would do some fence-mending with Joe and replace SasLite with his...and subsequently watch Mr. Worley's overpriced Sasquatch grow bald.
Maya, Max and XSI all have FULL systems. Granted, they all cost more, but maintaining a midget version puts LW in the back of the pack. The ONLY option being a full version that costs almost as much as :lwicon: itself doesn't help matters.

To be fair i think it's a little unfair to complain of the price and the plugin.
Sasquatch is expensive, but LW is cheap....
In comparison, Max, C4D, Maya, and XSI with the S&H option, are all a lot more expensive, than LW + Sasquatch...

Still Blender has new hair, based on Particles..... I can't see why at least
that could not be added to LW's toolset, without cost or problems.
Blender is free and opensource, so LW should be at least matching them.

Mylenium
12-04-2005, 03:03 AM
To be fair i think it's a little unfair to complain of the price and the plugin.Sasquatch is expensive, but LW is cheap....
In comparison, Max, C4D, Maya, and XSI with the S&H option, are all a lot more expensive, than LW + Sasquatch...


That may be a bit one-sided... I agreee that most packages are more expensive, but especially in case of Maya you literally get tons of options. Think of it: Maya has had Paint FX for a while, Fur has been around the block for a time and then they introduced "real" hair. On top of that you can buy S&H. All of these effects can be rendered in Maya, Mental Ray and Renderman (and they even properly reflect and cast shadows!) and integrate with the rest of Maya (Dynamics, render passes) which from my point of view offers almost infinite possibilities. I could say similar things about MAX (there are at least 3 hair plugins for it).

We are talking about >>>choice<<< here, and in LW you simply have none whereas in other tools you can always can approach with different techniques and tools. I already said something similar in another thread. I'm not saying that Sasquatch is a bad tool, but it's beginning to look old and underdeveloped in many areas. This is even more obvious if you look at some solutions in (supposedly) low-end programs like Animation Master or Realsoft 3D. It's about time Mr. Worley or someone else creates a plugin that allows us to compete with other apps in this area.

Saslite was a good idea at the time, but it really isn't usable beyond simple short fur and grass. It would be nice, if we saw some advancements here as well.

Mylenium

Emmanuel
12-04-2005, 08:27 AM
We definitly need more third party support.
We need stuff like Ornatrix.
LW must become more attractive to develop for.
Hey, Maya S&H was a "port" as far as I know, so why shouldn't it be possible to port Ornatrix to LW, as well ?
RedBull's right, its not the "old days" where You could say, hey, Maya, XSI, Max, all more expensive.
If Blender's got it, there is no more excuse.Blender is *free*.

UnCommonGrafx
12-04-2005, 09:23 AM
This line (and more of what I clipped) caught my eye...
It's not LW that has to be more attractive but the company that is NT that must be more attractive for third party developers. Ports went FROM LW...

People are being paid, encouraged, taunted into not developing for LW. NT is the only entity that can change this and make opportunity for us to have more choices. Here's to hoping that's what [9] is all about.



LW must become more attractive to develop for.

Emmanuel
12-04-2005, 11:15 AM
If You talk about actually funding third party development, I doubt it would happen or make sense.
Why fund a third party tool instead of developing inhouse ?
People port their stuff if it makes commercially sense.
I dunno why it doesn't make sense to port Ornatrix for example, unless the paying LW userbase is too small to be of interest.
Its been quite some time since we got some kind of "standard" plugin port to LW, and I am a little concerned we might not get that anymore at all.
I mean, C4D gets FR2, S&H, Pyrocluster, Thinking Particles to name but a few, Maya and XSI ar ehigh on priority lists when it comes to ports, also when it comes to add engine support for game engines,but LW isn't even a stepchild anymore, zero interest from any important company.
Thats hard :)
Because back in the golden times, we got stuff like the digital nature tools, lume tools, arete...dunno why this has stopped, its not like there are only 12 LWers all over the world, and I for one would gladly pay for Ornatrix for example.
For apps like Maya and Max, certain plugins are indeed an important sales factor, like the availability of different render engines, dynamic engines, hair engines and stuff like that.
The big "Wow!"-thing for LW is FPrime, not Sasquatch, while S&H and Ornatrix are important to studios, it seems.
I know, I know, the price drop of LW puts things into a new perspective, but I would have preferred the former price tag if the price drop means I have to accept that LW now plays in the third league :/

This plugin costs 77.- Euros (!!!) and looks quite interesting !
http://www.tarabella.it/c4dbeta/plugin_detail.php?Id_plugin=19

UnCommonGrafx
12-04-2005, 12:17 PM
And thus my point. Giving money is not my point; giving support and a heads up that crap's about to change and f'up one's plugin is.
Look on NT's site and then try to find an archive of an old one. In the past they highlighted companies that wanted to work with their softs. This is not a new observation. But it has been exacerbated by time and poisionous behaviour.

The SDK falls into this, as well. A steward, as it were, to assist with writing plugs would be quite helpful. Ernie Wright has been assisting forever; Jarno has stepped up and is assisting in this regard, as well. Also there are other great assists from others in the community. My point here is that, outside of Jarno (I believe), none of the others are 'officially' assisting and encouraging from NT.
I watched and listened as joe parted ways with LW and engineering assistance (or just the opposite) were the loudest complaints.

Mylenium
12-04-2005, 12:23 PM
This line (and more of what I clipped) caught my eye...
It's not LW that has to be more attractive but the company that is NT that must be more attractive for third party developers. Ports went FROM LW...

People are being paid, encouraged, taunted into not developing for LW. NT is the only entity that can change this and make opportunity for us to have more choices. Here's to hoping that's what [9] is all about.

Not really. NT have shunned away tons of developers themselves and unlike you say, most third party developers for other products aren't paid to either develop for their app or not to develop for other apps. A developer usually has a good reason to create a tool for a program and while money certainly is important, it's not everything.

Take Mr. Worley for instance. If he wanted, he could make tons of cash by creating plugins for other apps. Does he? No. He remains in this niche marekt for LW and we all admire him for that (without his tools, LW woul look even less attractive). He's one of the few developers who know LW's weaknesses (and SDK) inside-out and is able and willing to develop workarounds. Now here comes a BUT, and a big BUT at that: other developers may not be willing to accept having to do those workarounds. I'm sure some of them tried to work with LWs SDK at some point but at some point got frustrated and didn't consider it worthwile.

Moreover, if you look at how the other companies do it, you can only shake your had with doubt on how NT leave their developers hanging in mid-air. Maya, C4D, XSI and MAX all have systems where they actively support developers, either for free or via their commercial subscription/ tech support. I'm sure to a commercial developer this makes all the difference. It would mean less reverse engineering (mind you, FPRime and HD instance had to completely look like LWs own renderer which means this had to be studied and analyzed first) and more straightforward. Beyond this forum here and the SDK docs that come with LW I'm not aware that similar resources exist for LW.

Lastly, LWs plugin scene is not very coherent. There are some widely known tools and many, many that are hardly known. There are those crazy Japanese guys who produce powerful tools with Japanese interfaces, nobody understands. There's tons of LScripts and other plugins, but if it wasn't for Flay, the could hardly be found, even many commercial ones. You know, I can go to Alias site and get an official list of their "conductors" which at least covers the commercial manufacturers. Again, no such thing exists for LW. This means that all marketing efforts have to come from the developers themselves, which may be yet another reason to stay away from LW.

So until NT do something about their policy, it's very unlikely that we will see such cool things as Ornatrix come to LW. BTW, Emmanuel, I think those chances are slim, no matter if anything of the aforementioned stuff applies. MAX plugins are usually so deeply rooted within the architecture that developers sem to have a hard time to adapt them to other programs (think of finalRender - it took forever before it was available for anything other than MAX).

Mylenium

UnCommonGrafx
12-04-2005, 12:31 PM
Just to clarify...

There have been contracts that have asked, and gotten, exclusivity on plug development. This just makes business sense as I see it even if it hurts my situation.

Other than that, we've said the same thing about the lack of 3rd party interest.

Mylenium
12-04-2005, 01:35 PM
Just to clarify...

There have been contracts that have asked, and gotten, exclusivity on plug development. This just makes business sense as I see it even if it hurts my situation.

Other than that, we've said the same thing about the lack of 3rd party interest.

Could you give an example of this? No matter how much I try, I can't think of a Maya or other plugin that would fall into this category except for some in-house tools of big studios that aren't freely available anyways.

Mylenium

UnCommonGrafx
12-04-2005, 01:42 PM
No.



2345678

AbnRanger
12-06-2005, 12:38 AM
One of the biggest strengths that 3ds Max has, is of course, its 3rd party plugin support.
Making LW much more affordable may give :newtek: an abrupt boost in userbase...but if they don't make drastic changes in their dealings with 3rd party developers, the price drop could actually become a liability and send LW to the "Minor Leagues," so to speak.

Having only one possible choice for Hair/Fur is rather pathetic, to be honest. I don't know any details about Joe Alter's falling away with Newtek...but I believe it's high time for them to do some SERIOUS "sucking-up" to try and get him back onboard. If they have to offer a somewhat higher priced Advanced version...SO BE IT!....

RedBull
12-06-2005, 08:37 PM
Well speaking of hair, don't know if you saw the C4D Hair Stuff...
http://www.maxon.net/pages/products/c4d/modules/hair/hair_e.html#
I must admit it's pretty cool looking.

I think maybe NT should work to make some styling and brushing tools, some auto guide and preset tools, and then use SasLite's renderengine to render them.... That way they actually extend software they already paid for (we did too) but actually offer some inhouse innovation to make it easier to achieve.

AbnRanger
12-07-2005, 02:48 AM
Well speaking of hair, don't know if you saw the C4D Hair Stuff...
http://www.maxon.net/pages/products/c4d/modules/hair/hair_e.html#
I must admit it's pretty cool looking.

I think maybe NT should work to make some styling and brushing tools, some auto guide and preset tools, and then use SasLite's renderengine to render them.... That way they actually extend software they already paid for (we did too) but actually offer some inhouse innovation to make it easier to achieve.
They may not say it, but that looks like an adaptation of S&H. I've been hoping that we get surprised in LW 9 with some added functionality to Saslite, similar to what you referred to...not counting on it...just wishful thinking.

erikals
12-07-2005, 06:58 AM
I must admit that C4D hair looks very cool, hope LW can get something like that... or a Sasquatch update..

Emmanuel
12-07-2005, 12:41 PM
That lion looks great.Although price wise, its a bit expensive I guess...

BazC
12-08-2005, 02:57 PM
That lion looks great.Although price wise, its a bit expensive I guess...


Huh!? $295 is cheap for a hair plug, Shave is $395 for Cinema, Saquatch is $499 for Lightwave!

AbnRanger
12-08-2005, 04:49 PM
Huh!? $295 is cheap for a hair plug, Shave is $395 for Cinema, Saquatch is $499 for Lightwave!
That's because Sas is THE ONLY option for LW users and Worley is capitalizing on that fact. That's been my whole contention about Sas. Give him a little friendly (or fierce..I don't care which) competition and the prices will adjust accordingly, plus make continued development a greater urgency.

RedBull
12-08-2005, 06:41 PM
I think the issue to remember is LW is $795 for complete rendering and animation, $395 or $499 is quite expensive in comparison for a hair plugin.

I think Sas's price is too high... (but i bought it on special years back!)
But you must remember that Maya Unlimited and XSI Advanced
you pay several thousand dollars more for Hair.
Sasquatch has also been updated freely for many years.

Fluids and Hair are one of those cool things that take a lot of programming prowess, who would of thought being a virtual hairdresser, would be so lucrative.

I don't think it's a matter of Worley ripping people off however
Looking at the price of Shave, Hair etc..... It's about on par with Sas.
Only difference is Joe makes money of all platforms and 3D software.
Worley only gets his money back from LW people. So it's about right.

To say give him competition, well Steve has Joe, Maya, Max, C4D, XSI and Blender as competition. (meshpaint too) Really hair is so specialised
there are not many people who make a good enough competitive product.

LW & Saslite is good for the price really!
It's just a shame that it will sit dormant never to be updated again
like so many other NT plugin buy-ups.

If they had of bought Shave full version, It would give them industry standard hair..... But i remember Joe getting 6 figure offers from Max and XSI.
So i doubt our privately run and cheaper software could compete with that.

AbnRanger
12-08-2005, 07:01 PM
[QUOTE=RedBull] I don't think it's a matter of Worley ripping people off however...
Looking at the price of Shave, Hair etc..... It's about on par with Sas.
Only difference is Joe makes money of all platforms and 3D software.
Worley only gets his money back from LW people. So it's about right.

To say give him competition, well Steve has Joe, Maya, Max, C4D, XSI and Blender as competition.[QUOTE]
I didn't say he's ripping people off, just that, without competition, he has more leverage in the LW market to charge higher prices for his product than he could otherwise. Many users buy it simply because IT'S THE ONLY SOLUTION, and not because they think it's a superior product.
How does he compete with systems for Maya, XSI, Max, or Maxon...when he doesn't even offer a product for that market. You have to have a horse in the race, in order to win. His market is LW users EXCLUSIVELY....period. And Sas is, again, the ONLY option. Maybe it's just me, but I kind of like having some choices.
As of right now....my choice is to wait and see how things shake down after LW 9 is released.

Mylenium
12-09-2005, 02:26 AM
But you must remember that Maya Unlimited and XSI Advanced
you pay several thousand dollars more for Hair.

Well, but it's so much better integrated, and that what it's all about. Sorry to burst your bubble, but Sasquatch simply cannot hold up to that and even if it just cost 99 bucks wouldn't be very attractive for someone who is looking for more. Buying Maya Unlimited just to get Hair is certainly not a fair deal. However, you are getting so much more and in that light your argument is flawed because people aren't buying Maya just for Hair. Anyway, now with the new hair in Cinema4D many competitors will have a hard time finding arguments that their hair is better. It's really quite nicely done. Makes me really wish I had switched back to C4D as I considered at some point...

Mylenium

Emmanuel
12-09-2005, 10:35 AM
A discussion with a friend revealed that S&H beeing a standrad tool by now is a double-edges sword:
the good: its a standard tool available for every package.
the bad: since the packages are hunting for customers, S&H isn't a sales feature, only a feature that no other package has or can compete with drives Your sales, having a standard tool is like getting on par, not better ;)

Srek (PR guy from maxon) stated very wisely that the choice to create an inhouse hair module was also based on the fact thatS&H could never be that much integrated like HAIR actually is.
It probably is also based on the fear that there is a certain risk when relying upon a third party tool.
In our case, if Steve decides to discontinue LW plugins, it probably is more or less the end of hair for LightWave.
So, I hope that NT become as responsive as Maxon and create their own, fully integrated hair that is competitive.
Not only will it give LW independence, it also will improve sales.

Actually, Joe Alter is rather pissed off by Maxon's introduction of HAIR:

http://www.joealter.com/newSite/c4d.htm

Mylenium
12-09-2005, 11:17 AM
Actually, Joe Alter is rather pissed off by Maxon's introduction of HAIR:
http://www.joealter.com/newSite/c4d.htm

Well, if they really stabbed him in the back (so to speak), he certainly has reason to complain. This puts Maxon in a bad light, I must say.

Mylenium

RedBull
12-09-2005, 01:37 PM
Mylenium:
XSI for example, the only real differences to the LARGE cost increase of XSI Advanced and XSI Essentials, is the Hair and Syflex cost... (Behaviour too)
Point being you HAVE to pay a premium for Hair.... in most packages.
It's a COOL feature, which means you will pay for the COOLNESS of it...
Sasquatch is capable of doing stunning hair, and it's well worth $99
And you won't find too many people who wouldn't pay that for it..
(considering it's still sells for $499) But it is dated in comparison to the comp.

"We are working with a couple of freelancers as well who are doing special dedicated projects for MAXON. But we make sure that we have the complete source code for all our products. So no black boxes in our development which could cost problems in future releases. You can easily see where black boxes can lead to when you take a look at the availabilty of 64-bit versions of our competition."

Reading that it doesn't sound like they ripped Joe off (in a legal technical POV) as they bought the source code to S&H meaning they can do what the **** they like with it, and call it what they will......

The fact that S&H was ported to C4D and then lagged behind the Maya and XSI versions was likely the reason to make it an Inhouse tool.....
Seems like they have managed to sell the same tool, twice!
to the same userbase...... (smart!)

I doubt NT could afford it! :)
Although they could if they sold it for $395 on top of Lightwave..
in the same module fasion as Maxon.

Mylenium
12-09-2005, 02:48 PM
Reading that it doesn't sound like they ripped Joe off (in a legal technical POV) as they bought the source code to S&H meaning they can do what the **** they like with it, and call it what they will......

I doubt it. I'm sure the contracts stipulated some rules about how and when to use his code and I'm sure it didn't include exposing it to some freelancers and let them fiddle around with it. He also could hold them liable for infringing his patents (as basically the entire volumetric core of S&H is patented as I understand it) which despite his contract with Maxon would remain untouched by the aforemntioned business deal. The question only becomes: Can he prove that they crossed him and is he able and willing to battle his way thru a potentially long lawsuit? On top of that you shouldn't forget that even if they can reach a further agreement with Joe (mind you, it's Maxon US that did the deal) there might be some trap in that it may be impossible to further sell Hair outside of the US where that contract wouldn't be valid. I'm not a lawyer, but there just may be something fishy going on. It stinks anyway and just isn't very nice.

Mylenium

Emmanuel
12-09-2005, 03:11 PM
Well, they way I understand what redBull quoted was only applicable to other modules for C4D.
Joe's port of S&H for C4D wasn't such a freelancer project, but as far as I know he let another third party port S&H for C4D, Max and Maya while he concentrated on working on S&H for XSI.
HAIR was created by the mentioned freelancer for Maxon.
How much of S&H is in Hair, no one knows except for Maxon and the creator of Hair.
The similarities of course suggest that S&H was the rolemodel for Hair, but it could very well be that the code is different, or even better.
I would say Joe has to live with it.Good things get copied all the time, and as long as they don't infringe any copyrights/patents, I don't see the problem.
I can understand Maxon, though, they needed a hair solution until their own was mature enough, so they made a deal with Joe.Now, they have developed their own tool, and Joe's S&H is not only less important, it also seems inferior.
Hair will probably be working well on Macs, too, I heard S&H for C4D was a step behind or so.
Actually, Maxon's decision is the right one, as NewTek had to experience too, when they aquired the rights to Modeler and Layout from the former developers.NT had the same reason: no more black boxes, everything coded for NT belongs to NT, period.Their business depends on that factor.
At the end, its a loss for Joe and a win for Maxon.Now I wonder what Alias and SoftImage will do in the future, because S&H is also the only hair solution for them I think (except for the native solutions like XSI hair or Maya Fur...).

Here's hope for S&H for Blender :)
Come on NT, give us a good hair solution and get back to the old price of 1500 bucks !!

Earl
12-09-2005, 03:36 PM
It's hard to comment on the price/feature issues. Only NewTek will know for sure if the lower price will bring in more money or less than the previous MSRP. I wouldn't mind paying a little more (the original price) for LW if it meant we got more features but maybe we don't need to pay more?

I would certainly love to see NewTek develop their own native hair/fur solution (particularly one that goes above and beyond what's currently available). According to Jay Roth's statement on marketplace innovation, I have to believe NewTek's intent is to do so. Perhaps the new attractive price tag and host of catch-up features in v9 will bring in enough increase of volume sales that they'll have sufficient monies to spend on an industry-shaking version 10. NewTek seems to believe they can fully compete with the big boys at the $795 price tag - I hope they're right.

If not, there's always the chance Worley will save the day with a much-needed revolution to the Sasquatch hair/fur engine. :D

As far as the C4D Hair/Joe Alter situation goes: I think C4D did the right thing. I'm not a big fan of Maxon, but I applaud their release of HAIR. I don't think it's very professional for Joe to whine about it on his webpage. Does he really believe that no one will compete with him? :rolleyes:

RedBull
12-09-2005, 06:16 PM
It does sound like Joe knows he stands little chance of beating Maxon in a legal suit... I'm sure he's studied their contracts, and has realised he should be a little more careful with contracts in the future.
He does state "it's not my engine" which rules out any patent dispute.

A statement like : "Maxon shall not have the right to make competiting software or technology based on any part of S&H, in the future or for x amount of time." should of been stipulated, i reckon..

It's not uncommon for Large companies to screw little ones like this...
It is after all the Bill Gates method of doing business. (and it obviously works)

It does sound like Maxon have screwed him, but at the end of the day
Joe made his money. And Maxon have delivered an even better customised
and optimized version of an industry standard hair plugin (well done!!!)
to their customers.... And are now able to sell it as a module which makes money for Maxon, and not the original Shave plugin.... (Thats smart)

I think Maxon, have done everything NT should have in the last few years.
i think they are facing the same kind of challenges, as NT...
is in battling the big budget bonanza of Alias, Autodesk and Avid.

Maxon didn't really lower their prices, and seem to making real inroads,
Hair, Thinking Particles, Sky, they are really internally adding REAL features
not bolting on bandaids..... Their Module approach...

And the way they are working with 3rd parties to get plugins like Final Render
and S&H and not only work with them, but enhance and extend, the functions
they already had, can only be admired.
NT only licenced Saslite, and can't do much to extend it...

I really like what iv'e seen Blender and Maxon do in terms of development
compared to Autodesk, Alias, and Avid, which just buy or use money to solve the problems, Maxon seem to be innovative and smart at the same time.

AbnRanger
12-10-2005, 02:31 AM
I really like what iv'e seen Blender and Maxon do in terms of development
compared to Autodesk, Alias, and Avid, which just buy or use money to solve the problems, Maxon seem to be innovative and smart at the same time.
I agree with you about Maxon regarding their efforts lately (apart from them screwing Joe), but don't go dumping on Max...cause they've been no slackers by any means. In just the last 3 releases they added MAJOR additions like Particle Flow, Reactor, Character Studio (flat out best animation system in the biz, next to Motionbuilder), Paint Deformation tools (giving you some Zbrush-like functionality), ClothFX, Pelt UV Mapping, and new Hair/Fur... without additional cost. And these aren't band aids either. They were the BEST tools for Max in their respective category...and Autodesk was smart to bring them onboard. This leaves a tough lineup to compete against...and another reason why Newtek had better come out swinging in LW 9.

wacom
12-10-2005, 02:07 PM
The XSI shave isn't like the others. They bought up the rights and then developed it further- it is tightly intergrated into all parts of XSI and isn't a plugin. Viewing it in a render region is very helpful as is being able to use it with all of the other deformers and dynamics.

I disagree that Sas is that old/out of style. I think it's just not as well intergrated or understood as some of the other hair solutions since it is a stand alone plugin. Many people who were using Maya's fur solution and then shifted to XSI or LW+Sas have stated that it's a MUCH better solution.

Anyway- you can't just call each version of shave shave and a hair cut- some packages have gone well beyond what's included in the C4D version/stand alone. To expect less than $400 for a good fur/hair solution seems insane...but **** I'd buy it.

And before anyone goes dumping on a package simply because of a feature list- bullet point comparison they really need to think about intergration and workflow as the other side of the coin. A really cool feature that takes a full time scripting wiz isn't noted that way with many packages. Saying that Maxon is the only inovator is by no means the truth.

Wickster
12-29-2005, 04:04 AM
It's 3AM here so before my brain shuts down here's what I think would have to happen before we get a full Sasquatch in LW.

If Newtek was to make their own it would definitely annoy Worley, I mean Joe Alter was easily annoyed by having Saslite included with LW(I think). A lot LW users have already bought Sasquatch it'll be really unfair to them if the next version of LW have the full Sas included. And worley doesn't want to disappoint his customers.

So here's my insomniac plan: Worley gives Sasquatch (but I preffer he gives FPrime also) to Newtek for Lightwave X (Lightwave Ten if you wanna call it that way). Newtek agrees that for all customers who purchased Sasquatch from Worley gets a free update to LWX. That should justify the price of the plugin to worley's customers and having LWX with Sasquatch built in.

Bug you all later.

RedBull
12-29-2005, 03:26 PM
Hehehe, The reason we got SasLite and not Sasquatch is NT could not afford to buy Sasquatch, so that puts your plan out the door already.....
Definately not going to buy it now, and give it to LWX, or for free...
If they did ever buy it, you can bet nobody will get LW10 for free..
And i must say that's a stupid thing to do.... (no offence)

Also if NT did ever buy Sasquatch it would be a bad idea....
It's lacking in features, and they already bought it once before...
Perhaps if they developed SasII with Worley.

People who want Sas can and should buy it....
People who want other hair options, need to wait for Particle Hair or something.

It's not like the people who bought Waterpool and CCTV are getting LW9 for free.....(not should they)

Wickster
12-29-2005, 07:01 PM
Well, NT should at least try to get a "Free Worley Plugin of Choice" when you pre-order LWX or something. I think it'll be a better deal than having another software that some of us do not use (though DFX+ was pretty sweet)...just wishing.

AbnRanger
12-29-2005, 09:59 PM
Well, NT should at least try to get a "Free Worley Plugin of Choice" when you pre-order LWX or something. I think it'll be a better deal than having another software that some of us do not use (though DFX+ was pretty sweet)...just wishing.
As good as the LW/Vue bundle is...I have to agree with Wickster in that future releases perhaps LW should incorporate tools that are mainstays of their userbase. But on the flip side of the coin...there would be little incentive for them to upgrade. Kind of a "Catch 22" there.
"Maestro 2" would be a good choice, in my opinion. It wouldn't break the bank for Newtek, but it would still be a very powerful addition. Those guys at Stillwater thoroughly deserve some additional reward and reckognition for their innovation, while keeping it very affordable.
I'm somewhat miffed that, since LW reduced their price by 50% (AND STILL added Vue 5 into the mix), Worley has not budged on his pricing a single cent. I would expect some small gesture on his part to respond in kind. Maybe this tells us why LW gave us half a product....cause Worely was too tight-fisted to budge an inch, and cut a deal that's good for LW, their users, and STILL be good for him. Steve Worley's sure intent on "Getting His"...and that's why he isn't getting any of mine.
With better OpenGL viewport previews in LW 9, I think I can survive without FPrime...and I'll use Max to do hair and fur, til LW adopts a better solution.

RedBull
12-31-2005, 02:27 PM
A Free Worley plug of choice, i seem to think you people complaining about how LW is cheaper, and still want free plugins from Worely...

Sorry but these guys seem to need to make more money, so we get better tools... Worley does specials at certain times of the year and with early adopters....

I wish NT would start to internalise more, Plugin buyups are a standard thing,
but the band-aid approach must stop.....NT buy a plugin, and then abondon it forever... Unless they plan to refine and ehance those plugins, they show be working on features themself by now.... NT needs to be innovative. (like they were once)

Worley should not have to change his pricing, unless he needs to change his P/E ratio...... It's got nothing to do with NT's price of LW.....
His prices for plugins are certainly around the same price or cheaper than some of the competition....... How much is FinalRender or Brazil?
How much is FPrime... It's about competition not giving away free stuff...

Stuff like Vue5 and DFX+ is called Value Adding..... It gives extra exposure and marketing oppportunities to both companies to expose a complimentry
product...... And it usually works very well..... Both Eyeon and E-On as well as NT would of benefitted from the bundles they have added in the past.
(don't change what works)

I don't know much about Maestro2, but i don't want it with my LW9
If i wanted a bunch of 3rdparty tools, i'd buy them.

It's time NT started working on newer ideas, that some of the core changes
will reflect, and integration of Modeler and Layout should bring with it the ability to change or enhance some tools that have been limited buy segragation..

Skytracer2, Hypervoxels, Fluids, Hair, Volumetrics etc....
All the things that made LW popular, need to be updated and remade...
And not left and abandon until one of the (ever decreasing) 3rd parties
makes a newer version for NT to buy and ignore.....

Can i ask or see Abnranger some of the Hair Fur tests you've done with Max
and how much it cost to get Hair and Fur into Max.... (sounds expensive)
But i'm personally unsure what Sas does not do well.... (compared to other hair) i know styling and guides is something the others do better.....

But what else?

Emmanuel
01-01-2006, 08:51 AM
IMO You just can not compare FPrime to FR or Brazil yet.
Because as far as I know, these renderers work with everything Max has to offer, including volumetrics, while FPrime really just works with the built in LW stuff, no hair, no G2, no third party shaders like LWSimbiont or Amb_occlusion.
So to me thats not a real renderer.
I think that Sniper Pro for C4D works also with everything....and Maya's IPR and XSI's MR preview, too.This leaves Fprime rather behind the competition.
But like Sasquatch, for LWers its the only available option.

pooby
01-01-2006, 11:18 AM
As we all Know... F-Prime's limitations are a result of LW's shortcomings, not Worleys.. (and it does work with g2 and voxels)

But there is nothing close to F-prime as a previewer.. Show it to your Maya/ XSI etc friends and watch jaws drop...

It's currently the single most compelling reason to stick with LW

lwaddict
01-01-2006, 07:41 PM
I remember being there in the test pit with people like Uncommon, working on testing S&H for Joe.

We all picked up our copies for between 99-199 bucks, nice eh?

Joe was working feverishly on the debugging, all the while the SDK for LW was changing. He couldn't get them to budge on future changes as they went and was getting frustrated.

The final nail to S&H, which by the way was pretty **** awesome (still works here on an older version of LW, and we even got LipService with it which is still in use) was that the NT engineers just stopped responding to Joe. He wasn't asking for money, just some cooperation.

BAM...next version of LW came with SASLite.

Interesting to say the least, especially when some folks on this thread seem to think that no money exchanges hands in business ventures like product support plugins...well? Something happened. I honestly couldn't come up with any other reason for letting a product like S&H go away the way it did when it had so much more potential than Sas at the time.

I mean, what would've been the problem with having TWO options available? ****, I'd have em both in my arsenal...but now...only have SAS as my option.

Wait...option implies choice. And we don't have one here. Unless going back to baldness is a choice.

Bring back the days of third party support.
Bring back the days of competition breeding some of the hottest advantages to our favorite program.
Or at least just let me keep dreaming eh?

LWAddict

AbnRanger
01-01-2006, 07:41 PM
A Free Worley plug of choice, i seem to think you people complaining about how LW is cheaper, and still want free plugins from Worely...
I didn't say they should offer FREE Worley plugins....never have....I stated very clearly that offering future bundles including mainstay plugins would be a double-edged sword.
Sasquatch is one of the most expensive hair plugins for one of the least INexpensive 3D programs...to me, something's wrong with that picture.


Can i ask or see Abnranger some of the Hair Fur tests you've done with Max
and how much it cost to get Hair and Fur into Max.... (sounds expensive)
But i'm personally unsure what Sas does not do well.... (compared to other hair) i know styling and guides is something the others do better.....I don't see what the point is you are trying to make here? I didn't say anything about how well Sasquatch performs. Did you confuse me with someone else? As I stated before...and I'm sure there are those that disagree (that's ok,I'll still sleep good tonight).... I waited for months after purchasing LW to see if Worley was going to respond to LW's price reduction...even a tiny gesture. Nothing. That's fine. Nothing...is coming out of my wallet either.

Now, regarding how much hair was for Max....before v8 or after?
http://www.turbosquid.com/FullPreview/index.cfm/ID/229960
Just the regular upgrade price in v8.
You wanted a test render because......?

RedBull
01-02-2006, 02:10 PM
I didn't say they should offer FREE Worley plugins....never have....

No that was Wickster.


I waited for months after purchasing LW to see if Worley was going to respond to LW's price reduction...even a tiny gesture. Nothing. That's fine. Nothing...is coming out of my wallet either.

I'm sure Worley and his millions will also sleep well tonight!
I can't see how price is an issue, to get Hair in another program will cost more than LW + Sasquatch will..... If you have an issue with Worley's pricing
why not take it up with him? I don't see it as an issue.


Now, regarding how much hair was for Max....before v8 or after?
http://www.turbosquid.com/FullPreview/index.cfm/ID/229960
Just the regular upgrade price in v8.
You wanted a test render because......?

"I'll use Max to do hair and fur, til LW adopts a better solution"

What is a better solution?, one minute it's the price, than it's not good enough
I'm trying to work out what your problem is? What is a better solution?

LW+Saslite must be the cheapest way to do 3D hair with the exception of Blender..... LW+Sasquatch would be the 2nd cheapest way to do hair in LW.

$499 for Sasquatch is high, but in comparison to say C4D plus Hair, it's still the cheaper option, and compared to your current package it's much cheaper... HairFx is $399, Sasqautch $499......... But Max is heaps more expensive than Lightwave...... I don't really understand how Worley and NT are so badly priced in comparison.

I find it hard to see what the Better solution you keep mentioning is?

(Emmanuael) there are things in Maya that MR for example does not support,
Maya7 increased some of those shortcomings, but still MR is far from intergrated in Maya just like FPrime not everything is supported)
XSI's MR does not suffer from this though...

Shaders and Volumetrics in FPrime would be worth the LW9 upgrade beyond
any NullEdit plugin.... for myself.....
XSI's MR Region tool works with everything, and is not that far behind FPrime.
which makes me thing NT better hurry it up....

AbnRanger
01-02-2006, 07:15 PM
What is a better solution?, one minute it's the price, than it's not good enough
I'm trying to work out what your problem is? What is a better solution?...Til LW comes up with a better solution...than SasLite.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but from what I understand, in Sasquatch...just like with HairFX...you have to first manually apply splines to your objects as guides. Which can be a tedious process in itself. Shave N Haircut automatically grows Hair guides for you. You set the parameters like length ,density, etc. and then go to the styling interface, where you interactively grow, cut, and brush the hair.
It's a much quicker an intuitive process than the previous method. That's why I wish LW would mend fences w/ Joe and try to bring back S&H if they don't create one of their own.


LW+Saslite must be the cheapest way to do 3D hair with the exception of Blender..... LW+Sasquatch would be the 2nd cheapest way to do hair in LW.

$499 for Sasquatch is high, but ... But What? You said it yourself...BUT.... you just want to keep arguing..is what.

HairFX costs 11% of what Max costs. Sasquatch on the other hand, costs 63% of what Lightwave does (that's not even considering the addition of Vue 5). THERE'S SOMETHING WRONG WITH THIS PICTURE ...Like I said, it's odd when Newtek is willing to go to such great lengths to make 3d software affordable, yet Steve Worely essentially tells us to get screwed if we expect even the slightest reduction on his part.

Think what you want to think...go find a signpost to argue with. I'm done with this conversation.

Emmanuel
01-03-2006, 09:32 AM
LW+Saslite must be the cheapest way to do 3D hair with the exception of Blender..... LW+Sasquatch would be the 2nd cheapest way to do hair in LW.



Well, if I was to nitpick, I would say that C4D base costs 699.- and HAIR costs 249.-, which totals roughly at 950.-
LW is 795.- and Sas is 499.- which is roughly 1300.- in total, thats QUITE a bit more.
So Cinema plus Hair is the cheapest hair solution except for Blender.
Let's just hope that no one does a hair tool for XSI that works with Foundation and costst only 300 bucks :hey:

RedBull
01-03-2006, 01:19 PM
But What? You said it yourself...BUT.... you just want to keep arguing..is what.

That seems to be the difference, i was discussing a subject as well err it's a discussion forum. No need to be so defensive, i only asked you a question.
There was no argument from me (perhaps you can argue with yourself?)


Think what you want to think...go find a signpost to argue with. I'm done with this conversation.

Hehehe, I think the signpost would provide a much more mature conversation anyway. I was going to reply in a more informative fashion, but i see it's wasted on your childish persona.... Perhaps Max is the better program for you anyway :D

EDIT: Emmanuel : I based the price on this which shows USD price as $845
https://www.securewebexchange.com/resolve.ca/cinema4Dselect.php
for the basic package, (one should also remember C4D base, is inferior to LW)
HAIR is $395, which would put LW and Sas about the same price... IMO...

I will also point out that Lightwave has Saslite, which makes it the cheapest Hair solution..... No doubt the C4D HAIR module is quite superior to it most ways. Anyway Chuck has mentioned something about better hair in the future i believe, meanwhile with the issues Joe just had with NT, would rule
out the industry standard plugin for the time being.

jin choung
01-04-2006, 05:35 AM
actually,

i hope they REMOVE saslite from lw9. having CRIPPLEWARE (and as fully functioned as they try to push it, it IS crippleware) is WORSE (FAR WORSE) than not having any solution at all.

if they had no BUILT IN SOLUTION, they would have to go around saying, yeah, we can't do hair out of the box.

and that would catch up to them eventually.

but with crippleware, they can say that they do hair... however rudimentarily (i've used it... it's SORELY lacking and a GREAAAAAAAAT ADVERTISEMENT for SASFULL... [if it was so fully featured, sasfull shouldn't look so attractive... but it really really does])... and not be lying....

alas alas alas. (did they learn nothing from the lite version of particle fx? at least they weaned themselves away from that.....)

they can claim 'fully functioned' till they're blue in the face - saslite was a big mistake that completely removed all motivation for lw to pursue a real hair solution for lw.

jin

p.s. actually, if there's any way that we can piss off worley in such a way so that saslite is removed... perhaps that would be an avenue worth pursuing?

Emmanuel
01-04-2006, 09:44 AM
Hi,

@redbull:
Of course thats true, if You consider sasLite, LW is the most affordable ( I tend to avoid "cheap" cause it sounds, well, cheap).
I like SasLite for what it does, actually, its Lite and without it I could neither do grass or fur or some hair tricks.But of course it should be enhanced in the future.
The six parts that need to be enhanced is dynamics, hair, volumetrics, rendering, lighting and character animation.
And HAIR is pretty much "en vogue" since Maxon made this bold step forward.
Maxon is not a large company, either.

RedBull
01-04-2006, 01:15 PM
Yeah i agree with both of you, SasLite is the crappest solution known to man.

I also actually like Saslite, and use it just quickly for tests over Sasquatch
sometimes..... But whoever thought it would be a good idea to add a crippleware version of Sas, should of lost thir job.....And it many respects Jin you are correct....

Particle Storm Lite, NT done the same thing, only with PSL they actually replaced it with a full Particle FX engine eventually......(PS i still miss PS sometimes) But yeah you would think NT would learn from this but no!, not our NT..... They just keep on doing it.... :)

I think Saslite may still be worthwhile, if they added Particle Guide Hair, and used Saslite to render the guides, at least it would boost Saslite for a version or two..... Better than leaving it rot.

I think Sasquatch Full version, would be heaps better if it worked in FPrime...
I mean S&H just can't do that! A volumetric SasII with Fprime for $295.00
would be a swell solution.

But i agree Maxon are doing a lot correct lately.... The Studio bundle is way to overpriced, but the module approach to adding extra functions is above NT's "Crippleware buy ups" Lets hope in the future we have options.
Options like HAIR.....

lwaddict
01-04-2006, 02:29 PM
S&H never needed FPrime.

In S&H you could quickly add hair and actually shake it up to test the dynamics without so much as rendering.

You could also replace the hairs with feathers, or whatever objects you wanted to do this with.

Point being...the lack of third party support, aside from Worley, has gotten pretty old.

Competition once bred some powerful tools...
anyone remember using some of these bad boyz?

1.) Particle FX
2.) Lume Tools
3.) Fiber Factory (ewe, but yeah, people used it right?)
4.) Nature FX
5.) Tree Generator
6.) Leaves Generator
7.) Motion blah blah
8.) Reelflow
someone help me here since I'm nowhere near my box.

but there were a lot of em out there...
I remember everyone complaining about the need for all these plugins too.
Whiners.
Now LW has it's own solutions for many of the WANTS and NEEDS of the people...solutions that helped chase away other third party solutions, many of them superior to those that come in the box.
Let's face it...the particle system still doesn't entirely matchup to that last verison of Particle FX from Dynamic Realities folks.

And now that there's less than a handfull of people out there working on third party plugs for Lightwave...it would appear to not be a viable market eh? So why should anyone else bother starting up making stuff for us?

Don't believe me? Not making sense?
Take a look around.

Vue comes with Lightwave and yet their latest incarnation was designed for the other programs out there, right?
"Lightwave version coming"...whatever.

Don't get me wrong...
I love Worley plugs.
I really love my Vue.
I love Lightwave.
And everyone who knows me...KNOWS I love Newtek.

But, we're losing a battle here and it has less to do which product to use for what options and so much more to do with a lack of options.

But that's just me I guess. 8~

jin choung
01-04-2006, 08:17 PM
and to elaborate,

i FULLY recognize that lw cannot possibly do/afford to do everything....

given that, we should NEVER EVER EVER do something just to say that we can do it as a bulletpoint - even though it is not very well done.

i really would rather not have saslite and instead, have the fact that lw having no hair solution BE A FIRE UNDER NEWTEK'S *****.

and just for future reference newtek, if there is a FULL version or a PRO version of something (like sas), we will have no less than the FULL/PRO version! please please please give us NOTHING rather than an LE, a light, a kid's, etc....

jin

Mister NO
01-06-2006, 08:55 AM
Hey people you are just wasting your time!!!!
I think that integration is the key to improve LW because Max, XSI and other are integrating other plugins and not develope it (but this is just for hair dynamics fluids cloth...)!
And when they release new version they have complete Hair ,fluid .hard or cloth system and not some failure!!! :tsktsk:
Now there is still time to work on LW , but competition is growing much faster then LW is developing so maybe one day you might sell LW as a plugin for modeling :D

jesusguijarro
01-07-2006, 09:03 AM
Hi,

I think it could be a good idea that Newtek makes a Hair solution to Lightwave, I was lastly taking with Worley support and they told me that sasquacht will have an update, this one is unlikely be relesaed this year, and sasquacth at this moment has serious limitations.

RedBull
01-12-2006, 12:39 PM
Hey Jesus,

Are you still working for NextLimit?
Has Victor or NL ever thought of doing a multisoftware hair plugin?

I'm sure Sas2 is planned, but waiting for necessary SDK improvements
to make a few more features possible.. (reflections etc)
And of course if Worley could make it FPrimable, well that would be nice too.

jesusguijarro
01-13-2006, 05:20 AM
Hi Redbull

I have never worked for NextLimit. I have a friend working there and they aren´t doing a multisoftware hair pluging. Where have you hear about that?

I was talking lastly with worley support and they told me that sasquatch 2 is planed but is unlike to be released this year. I´m sure that when worley relase sasquatch 2 it will be awesome but we have to wait long time till then

erikals
01-13-2006, 07:27 AM
Sas certainly could need a price drop...
Not that I care too much myself, own it now, but the price is way too high in my opinion, $499! I ask myself why...

erikals
01-18-2006, 07:46 PM
Not directly related, but this was kind of fun, Tomohide Kano's Dynamic Fur Demo (http://www.ati.com/developer/indexsc.html). Something for a Sas future release?

(If u test the demo, make sure u press the letter "a" to make the alpha test active, so that the fur changes shape)

lwaddict
02-10-2006, 02:37 PM
Didn't see Hair on the features list for LW9...
in fact,
didn't see SasLite, Sas, Fuzzy Factor, Hair Hair Anywhere, nada, nilch.

Anyone got more info?

DragonFist
02-14-2006, 03:58 AM
Hi Redbull

I have never worked for NextLimit. I have a friend working there and they aren´t doing a multisoftware hair pluging. Where have you hear about that?

I was talking lastly with worley support and they told me that sasquatch 2 is planed but is unlike to be released this year. I´m sure that when worley relase sasquatch 2 it will be awesome but we have to wait long time till then

I read about it on their website (I think it is still there) but was told by someone on the forums that they dropped it.

Edit: Sorry, was wrong, wasn't NextLimit. This is what I was thinking of:

http://www.fxrealm.com/products/furistic/lwfeatures.htm

gjjackson
02-14-2006, 06:55 AM
And the people at FxRealm were willing to sell their source code.

SaturnX
02-14-2006, 11:57 AM
I think hair stuff is probably best left to 3rd party support for the time being.
Worleylabs has been a major asset to lightwave... and lets hope it stays that way. In regards to LW though, Sasquatch could benefit from stronger competition, thats for sure ;)

... Thinking on a practical level ... I dont think newtek have the resources to be able to code and maintain hair effects development... there's too much foundation level stuff to do in lightwave v9.xx already.

digital verve
02-21-2006, 05:31 AM
Just throwing in my support for a good in-built hair solution integrated into LW. Rather than the cut down extra that we currently have with the problems and workarounds. I suppose with the much better SDK in LW9, it will open the opportunity for other 3rd parties. I want Newtek to at least provide a decent basic hair solution to start off with in LW. Saslite is not a decent basic hair solution.

RedBull
02-21-2006, 12:55 PM
I suppose with the much better SDK in LW9

Hehhehehehehehhe, Hahahahahahahahh, Heheheehhehe
ROFL, LOL, BWhahahahwhwhahahahwhwa.... Ahem, um..... Hehahahehahehahehehahahehehahehehahehheehhe LOL.....:foreheads

Sorry i just find it hard to believe, that people are actually believing NT marketing hype...... "Much Better SDK in LW9" Bwhhawehahwhahahaheee..

It's actually annoying how NT have mentioned their SDK, yet done nothing substansial a all has been done..... Oh what a surprise...

:)

digital verve
02-21-2006, 04:36 PM
It's actually annoying how NT have mentioned their SDK, yet done nothing substansial a all has been done..... Oh what a surprise...

:)

That's right; I'm saying 'better SDK' based on their marketing. :)
I am stupid ( well, according to you :) ) enough to believe they will deliver during the 9.x updates a much improved SDK. Why do I believe it; because they have to.

Let's wait until LW9 is finally released and we have the full facts. :D

Whatever; I and others want a decent hair solution shipping with LW, as saslite is not.

:lightwave along with all my other apps :)

jeremyhardin
02-21-2006, 05:15 PM
Why do I believe it; because they have to...

Why do they have to? Because they said so?
They said that they were going to expose the Hub in the Lightwave 8 SDK (and still do say this on every 8 feature list), yet it never happened. No comment. Not even a change on the website (other than removing the link from LW's main page to the 8 features ;) ).

http://www.newtek.com/products/lightwave/product/list.html
or for you European users:
http://www.newtek-europe.com/fr/products/lightwave/list.html

It's there on both. But it doesn't exist. And no comment from Newtek.

That said, they don't have to.

digital verve
02-21-2006, 05:46 PM
That said, they don't have to.

Of course they don't have to. They don't have to do anything if they don't want to. My meaning (as probably not obvious in text speak to you :) ) is that they 'have to' if they are going to please some of their customers such as myself, who want to see FPRIME no longer limited to what it can render, plus the limitations other third party solutions have to face because the SDK needs to be more open.

That includes hair plugins. A competitively priced third party solution such as this: http://www.ephere.com/ornatrix/ would be nice for LW, even if Newtek don't get round to their own until LW10.

Anyway. Judging from the videos, LW9 imho is shaping up to looking a much better improvement than LW8. Maybe some pleasant SDK surprises await for 3rd party developers too.

:)

RedBull
02-21-2006, 05:53 PM
That's right; I'm saying 'better SDK' based on their marketing. :)
I am stupid ( well, according to you :) ) enough to believe they will deliver during the 9.x updates a much improved SDK. Why do I believe it; because they have to.

Let's wait until LW9 is finally released and we have the full facts. :D


LOL..... Yeah i used to listen to marketing, now i look through the marketing.
The LW9 SDK has been released..... And there were more updates in 8.21
than there are in LW9 SDK...... (not to say no new goodies)

And i didn't call you stupid, didn't think you were at all really.... Well not until you said i did.... :)

I do perhaps think those that think NT really are opening the SDK or core substansially, and making real changes to real problems are a little gullable though... :) I know this because i onced believed in NT too.....:foreheads

Yeah Jeremy, that Public Hub access works a treat doesn't it..... ;)

I want OGL procedurals too!! Why is it Aura, Mirage can have access
to the HUB, NT can update (some) of their procedurals to work with GLSL..
Yet they prevent paying customers, who give free tools to their userbase
from accessing these things via an SDK (which we often get told we will)
It's like this company spends a billion dollars on a road, and then tries and prevent anybody from driving on it........

Hence the reason we lost S&H and another Hair option in the first place......
Rant Mode [/off]

ColinCohen
02-21-2006, 07:17 PM
They said that they were going to expose the Hub in the Lightwave 8 SDK (and still do say this on every 8 feature list)

I think some developers have had access to the Hub API. At least, I've heard of some products that make use of it. Perhaps it's just some miscommunication.

I would certain like to have access to it. :)

jeremyhardin
02-21-2006, 07:20 PM
I think some developers have had access to the Hub API. At least, I've heard of some products that make use of it. Perhaps it's just some miscommunication.

I would certain like to have access to it. :)
i would too! :D I posted like 3 different threads asking about it. TLU even said that they doubted it made it into the actual release.

if it is buried in there, they've hidden it well and CERTAINLY not documented it. Though if Jarno from TLU thinks it's not there, I'd suspect it isn't there.

Sculley
02-22-2006, 02:50 AM
It's time NT started working on newer ideas, that some of the core changes
will reflect, and integration of Modeler and Layout should bring with it the ability to change or enhance some tools that have been limited buy segragation..


I personally hate the idea of putting Modeller and Layout togeather... it would kill much of the usuability and work flow in many areas. When you work on a large model you'ld have to most the time in most apps clear your project and work on the model seperately etc anyways.. simply cos projects grow to un workable sizes if your to model there as well... Most big productions don't use one package to model and render... so I don't see its a problem. Perhaps its more of just including tools required by different features.

I have to agree LW needs to improve the SDK.. there are areas id like improved.. but i think that they have been slow over the past few years is because of the changes that LW9 will bring in to play. Why update the SDK.. let people make for it and then rip it all out from under them when they've made changes. It makes less sense than waiting a short while for them to sort there core's out..so that they can have an SDK that reflects the changes.

The features and core changes seen so far in LW9 is a huge leap over 8.. and anyone can see they've done a lot a work.. Everyone needs time to get things up to scratch... id be surprised if that production list of theres doesnt include some very nifty ideas.. but id prefer them to get the core completed and working to its best before filling the program with extras that would probably only be broken with core improvements. Lets give them a chance to get Lw9 out.

I think NT unlike many renderers in the market havnt hit the advertising band wagon as hard... look at the amount of advertising other companies put in to selling there apps.. and the number of sites that advertise them... perhaps if NT had a bigger strategy for this area and made lots of noise in the market it would help get some extra people in to doing more for the package. Third developers want to work for packages that everyone knows and has seen.... NT should be shouting out to everyone all there fanatastic feature films and tv shows that LW has been relied upon over the past few years.... Every other company does it a lot.. maybe to the point they over do it.

Parthius
02-23-2006, 07:08 PM
Are they going to address hair for LW64? Worley certainly isn't forthcoming when it comes to 64bit ports for any of their plugins. Very disappointing when I went with LW because they were going 64bit...

gjjackson
02-24-2006, 06:54 AM
And from what I can determine on Microsoft's site, it isn't too big a deal to port existing software over to 64bit and recompile.

erikals
04-18-2006, 02:33 PM
Are they going to address hair for LW64? Worley certainly isn't forthcoming when it comes to 64bit ports for any of their plugins. Very disappointing when I went with LW because they were going 64bit...

Hi, not sure if I misunderstod, Sas 1.7 says "Support for 64 bit dongle drivers".
Doesn't that mean it should work?
http://www.worley.com/Sas_support.html

jesusguijarro
04-18-2006, 02:45 PM
Yes it can run in Xp64 but running only in LW32 not LW64

Mike_RB
04-19-2006, 05:31 AM
This thread brings back old memories. Good old Shave for LW. With Ren, Dave Matherly, Bill Capozzi, Chris Short, Shaun Bishop, Zak Jarvis, Robert Wilson, Gary Devore, Kevin Olson, Don Vinson, Frank Browne, Phil Jackson...

I'm sure that's not everyone, it was sure fun using Shave and helping identify problems... Oh well.

Emmanuel
04-25-2006, 08:45 AM
Just for the occasional over the fence look: here's a plugin for XSi that works with Foundation, costs 50 bucks and does what SasLite does (plus some more things like weightmaps for density...):

http://shaders.moederogall.com/BFurry/index.html

Now, taht means for 550 bucks You get XSI Foundation plus a hair plugin...come on NT :)

jesusguijarro
04-25-2006, 01:47 PM
I prefer Worley's approach - even though we hear nothing, he always comes up with something near rock-solid and works well. I would bet that Sas2 is well worth the wait. A VERY loooooong wait, but..... ;)

Megalodon


The problem with Sas is that at this moment is very tedious work with it if you compare what other softwares can do. Two years ago it was still good but now at this moment I wouldn´t buy it; and like worley said to me some months ago they aren´t goint to develop sasquatch 2 unlikely till next year, I have been asking worlkey for an update that supports any kind of light and can be seen in refractions and reflexions since the first version and they always told me the same, there are plans for it but years passes and it only has little updates that don´t get any substancial change.Have develop G2, Fprime but Sasquatch is bascaly the same. ĦĦĦĦ PLEASE NEWTEK GIVE US A HAIR SOLUTION !!!

lwaddict
04-25-2006, 01:55 PM
Emmanuel...
that "trick" for 50 bucks can be done in LW natively.

You just create a point/poly based object and have it pulse in size between two frames with 100% motion blur on...that's it.

I'm all for a new solution...but Joe Alter's "Shave" is looking like the way to go...
anyone see "Kong"?
Even if you hated the film, the three hour lengthy thing it was, you've just gotta love the fur and hair fx.

YO JOE.

jeremyhardin
04-25-2006, 01:58 PM
lwaddict...uh...no.

that's not a motion blur fake or simple extention of color. it's fur that shows up in shadows and respects every kind of light. it's comb-able, style-able, etc.

someone elses test:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v196/cmoloney/CGtalk/Bear_heads.jpg

EDIT: and the thread it came from:
http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?p=3487708#post3487708

ColinCohen
04-25-2006, 02:14 PM
I agree with Jeremy -- it looks quite good. It seems, though, at least in this version, it can handle only straight, single-segment strands.

The big advantage he had is that there is a hair primitive built into MR.

Darth Mole
04-25-2006, 03:44 PM
If NewTek - or Worley - are going to do a new/updated hair plug-in, they could do a lot worse than look at C4D Hair. It's really very impressive:

http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?t=341072

And if that's too expensive for you, take a look at this affordable C4D plug-in from Renato Tarabella:

http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?t=341745

Chuck in that new MoGraph module and C4D is really going places...

erikals
04-25-2006, 07:28 PM
Making some hair now, the making of long hairguides is what annoys me, it takes very long to make hair (cool hair). C4D's tools are going in the right direction, but even they can be improved.

RedBull
04-26-2006, 12:28 AM
OT: Yeah C4D's MoGraph looks cool! and it's a free gift in the 9.6 upgrade.

I remember when NT used to actually add cool features in .a, or .1 releases.
It's really like Maxon is the old NT... :)

All those new inbuilt, innovative features that no one else is thinking of.
Oh memories.

Maxon have had a fair new nice features over there 9.x cycle.
Sky, Hair, MojoGraph etc...

Let's hope LW 9.x will have a similar cycle. :)

Emmanuel
04-26-2006, 07:18 AM
Emmanuel...
that "trick" for 50 bucks can be done in LW natively.

You just create a point/poly based object and have it pulse in size between two frames with 100% motion blur on...that's it.

I'm all for a new solution...but Joe Alter's "Shave" is looking like the way to go...
anyone see "Kong"?
Even if you hated the film, the three hour lengthy thing it was, you've just gotta love the fur and hair fx.

YO JOE.

You're kidding, right ? No way I am going to "pulse" an object :).
I am crazy, but not THAT crazy ;)
Besides that, Kong used S&H only marginally, if at all, Joe's advertising is kinda misleading.
Read here:

http://www.highend3d.com/news/studios/107.html

Own hairsolution.Own fluids.Own everything.

Emmanuel
04-26-2006, 07:21 AM
Making some hair now, the making of long hairguides is what annoys me, it takes very long to make hair (cool hair). C4D's tools are going in the right direction, but even they can be improved.

Lets not forget with all the progress that things like hair, fluids, volumetrics, dynamics are still a very complicated and difficult area.
With most feature films, there is still a group of people working on the hair and dynamics, its not Your average quick&dirty task ;)
Getting good looking, naturally flwoing hair IS an achievement, and like all important ahcievements, it takes a lot of work and time.In any app.

Stooch
04-26-2006, 10:19 AM
The cold hard fact here is that sasquach is a ripoff considering that no development has been done for years and none is slated for the foreseeable future. Who in their right mind would shell out for a product that is in limbo? when the product costs as much as it does in comparison to the app.

also, its lws fault for the lack of development. a good hair plugin requires the SDK to generate real geometry in layout. thats the bottom line. if you cant do taht readily and have to do workarounds then its not worth the development effort.

mrunion
04-26-2006, 09:14 PM
I used Blender before I got LW, and here is something interesting from the Blender people:

The "hair" section of the manual:
http://mediawiki.blender.org/index.php/Manual/PartXIII/Particle_Hair

And you GOTTA watch this vid linked at the bottom of the manual:
http://www.mentalwarp.com/~fred/divers/HairTutorial.avi

I'm not hacking NewTek or LW at all, but I'm really thinking about dissecting the code for this and seeing what I can do. Of course it'll take me quite a while. :D

Dodgy
04-27-2006, 04:00 AM
also, its lws fault for the lack of development. a good hair plugin requires the SDK to generate real geometry in layout. thats the bottom line. if you cant do taht readily and have to do workarounds then its not worth the development effort.

LW has had this ability since 8.5 or 8.3 I believe, using their custom polygon sdk.
Hairblade and TrueArt's virtual mirror both use this. I'm just waiting for someone to apply this to hair (though hair blade is pretty close, it needs a few refinements)

pixelinfected
04-28-2006, 03:14 PM
uhm, sas is not so bad.
i know it's old, and a bit rigid, but is a good fur solution, the best for lw actually.
i bought immediately when worley show it and i'm quite satisfied, i would like abetter combing and growing system, a better enveloping way, but is for next year, this year worley told me that not think to do more on sas.

i not like shave and hair for many reason, and i think newtek did right thing to insert sas lite and not S&H.
joe cutoff page about cinema from its web site, probably their advocates menace him with legal rights, but i don't see what joe wrote in that page, but it'snt the first time, again when joe develop for xsi 2 the fur, they leave him to continue the develop without him, a guy of italian softimage told me that its code is crap and not enought good for xsi, they re wrote most of code.

max incorporate a lot of plugins, but how many cost 3dmax? and other applications?
in past i see many solution for fur for lw, i tried all, but no one have the quality and stability (very important in production) of sas.
i prefer to have a good support from worley then incredible named plugin that not have support or production quality.

sas born like old and segret fur.p plugin. worley develop plugin under payied request, after three or five years, during them he continue to develop and polish the plugin, he can sell a production tested plugin/plugins

erikals
04-29-2006, 05:04 AM
...And you GOTTA watch this vid linked at the bottom of the manual:
http://www.mentalwarp.com/~fred/divers/HairTutorial.avi...

Now that's neat. :thumbsup:

gjjackson
04-29-2006, 11:54 AM
Hmmm. Since Blender is 'Open Source' I should think it could be adapted to LW in some manner. Maybe though a displacement map. I don't know. It's beyond my capabilities. I thought I'd look at the code though.

Emmanuel
04-30-2006, 08:02 AM
Return of the classic fiber plugin, new and enhanced for LW:


http://www.binaryartsinc.com/products.htm


Isn't that just great !!!

digital verve
04-30-2006, 08:51 AM
Return of the classic fiber plugin, new and enhanced for LW:


http://www.binaryartsinc.com/products.htm


Isn't that just great !!!

This is good news.