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View Full Version : Joe Alter Interview (Shave and a haircut)



Emmanuel
11-23-2005, 07:49 AM
http://www.vfxblog.com/vfx/2005/11/joe_alter_on_sh.html

Note: Its a shame, not a SINGLE mention of LightWave in the whole article, and thats where Shave started :(

UnCommonGrafx
11-23-2005, 10:59 AM
:agree:




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Mylenium
11-23-2005, 11:51 AM
http://www.vfxblog.com/vfx/2005/11/joe_alter_on_sh.html

Note: Its a shame, not a SINGLE mention of LightWave in the whole article, and thats where Shave started :(

Weel, considering the events surrounding the demise of Shave for LW, I don't wonder. It's just the same like talking about the app with m... and the company with L.... but let's not rub salt in old wounds.

Mylenium

ingo
11-23-2005, 02:39 PM
Weel, considering the events surrounding the demise of Shave for LW, I don't wonder. It's just the same like talking about the app with m... and the company with L.... but let's not rub salt in old wounds.

Mylenium

You mean the app _m_axwell and the company next _L_imit ?? ;)

Lewis
11-23-2005, 02:55 PM
Hi !

If Joe didn't want to mention LightWave then it's his problem/shame not ours. I don't care what were problems between NT and Joe in past but i'd be atleast so decent to mention that whole Shave nad Haircut started way back in Lightwave - he didn't, so why should we (LW users) care :). It's obvious that he isn't planing to port new version to LW.

UnCommonGrafx
11-23-2005, 03:17 PM
Actually, we should care, as some have stated.
And I believe we should care because a lot, and I do mean A LOT of intellectual opportunity was chased away at that juncture. We, as cg artists, as LW artists in particular, should care that we aren't getting 'the goods' that actually started on our boxes. And for that matter, that lots of development for our app of choice was never finished and lots never started.

As a thought, joe never has to dev for lw again -- someone just needs to take him up on his offer to develop under his sdk. It is my HOPE that NewTek was able to take advantage of this and that we will see the fruit of such labor when [9] joins us. But, as always, I'm a dreamer.

Check out a demo of S&H if you can. It is an amazing way of working with hair. I have Sas, too, so I'm not just being a Luddite on this.

RedBull
11-23-2005, 03:32 PM
I don't think it's Joes shame for the LW debacle.... I think it's NT customers who lost out..... And without starting a fight, the same crits that Joe had with LW and the SDK and head programmers, are the same ones Worley and countless other developers have complained about for years....

"lets just say it can be a bit like herding cats - I've had good experiences and bad ones." I think that says it all, without getting Joe sued for slander... :)

And i believe Shave started out as a standalone package before the LW version.

And we are the ones, who don't have an alternative hair renderer in LW,
which had the bonus of offering instancing as well, for cheaper than Sasquatch..... **** even C4D has the full version of S&H integrated, while we suffer with Sas-Lite.... (and it was a crappy decision, to buy a lite version)

Hmmmph...

:)

Ade
11-23-2005, 04:05 PM
http://www.vfxblog.com/vfx/2005/11/joe_alter_on_sh.html

Note: Its a shame, not a SINGLE mention of LightWave in the whole article, and thats where Shave started :(

Not His fault he left on bad terms...

UnCommonGrafx
11-23-2005, 07:36 PM
Conspiratorials might call it sabotage...
<something silly about corporate sabotage deleted>

BazC
11-24-2005, 02:54 AM
even C4D has the full version of S&H integrated, while we suffer with Sas-Lite....

:)

No it doesn't! Not even Cinema Studio bundle includes Shave and a Haircut and Studio retails at around $3000! Also the Cinema version of Shave is at least a full version behind the Maya version and is (apparently) not as well integrated as the Maya and XSI versions. I wouldn't get too jealous of Cinema on this feature! :) - Baz

Mylenium
11-24-2005, 03:19 AM
No it doesn't! Not even Cinema Studio bundle includes Shave and a Haircut and Studio retails at around $3000! Also the Cinema version of Shave is at least a full version behind the Maya version and is (apparently) not as well integrated as the Maya and XSI versions. I wouldn't get too jealous of Cinema on this feature! :) - Baz

Yeah, but you can buy S&H separately for 349,- Euros or something like that and then get all the power. That's cheaper than Sasquatch and as C4D users can use tools such as true spline guides (vs. the polychains in LW). I'd say things are much better for them even if they don't have the latest version of Joe's code.

You are also forgetting that C4D users have much more choices. There are several other plugins such as DPit Nature Tools that offer acceptable solutions for creating at least "grassy" hair and instancing (I also think the new Advanced Render 2.5 offers render time instancing). Compared to how limited you are in LW with Sasquatch and HD instance this also is much better.

Mylenium

BazC
11-24-2005, 03:50 AM
True! I still wouldn't get too jealous of Cinema users. Going by posts on Cinema forums few people seem to use Shave with Cinema and many that do complain about it! You're right about them having more choice though!

The good news is, I've been in contact with Samir Kharchi about porting DPIT to Lightwave and he's interested! Providing LW9 SDK is suitable for his needs and there is enough interest from the LW community there is a good chance he will port DPIT. You may not know that he is also working on a hair feature for a future version of DPIT complete with styling! :)

You can learn more here (http://vbulletin.newtek.com/showthread.php?t=42779)

Incidently, Cinema does have instancing built in but not volumetric instancing. It needs a plug for that just as Lightwave does, luckily DPIT includes a volumetric instancing plug too so keep your fingers crossed (it's really an amazing toolset and VERY cheap!) - Baz

Lewis
11-24-2005, 12:55 PM
Hi !

I don't want to start any flame but i'll repeat myself :).

If HE (Joe) didn't find it significant to mention LW in interview why should we (users) care or worry about that ? Can we force him to mention LW ? No - so what then :)? No matter how good or bad deciosons were (His or NTs) he left development for LW so we are where we are and i don't see reason for whining :). It's pased several years since last Shave for LW and i think we should look ahead into bright LW future ;).

cheers

UnCommonGrafx
11-24-2005, 04:06 PM
Chuckle,
I guess saying we're whining is supposed to shut us up? ;)

It's been a few days since I used mine so you see, for some of us it is a current topic. Our concerns for a bright LW future is what our comments are about. Surely, wanting an improved lw is not just whining?

As soon as they get rid of SasLite I'll consider this done. But until that time, opinion will be shared whether it is labelled whining or not. ;) ;)

Mylenium
11-24-2005, 04:07 PM
Hi !

I don't want to start any flame but i'll repeat myself :).

If HE (Joe) didn't find it significant to mention LW in interview why should we (users) care or worry about that ? Can we force him to mention LW ? No - so what then :)? No matter how good or bad deciosons were (His or NTs) he left development for LW so we are where we are and i don't see reason for whining :). It's pased several years since last Shave for LW and i think we should look ahead into bright LW future ;).

cheers

Well, I don't see LW's future as bright in that area (hair & fur). Unless someone comes up with a new tool or Sasquatch gets a 1000% boost, I'm afraid Joe Alter's retreat from the LW arena must be considered a major loss. He certainly does not miss LW - he's sold his code to so many companies and has a quasi-monopoly allowing him to make a nice living from the licensing fees...

Mylenium

colkai
11-25-2005, 04:18 AM
As opposed to poor ole Mr Worley,
who has trouble selling any of his plugins and barely scrapes by in the LW market.
;) :p
Admittedly, competition is good, (not that Steve Worley seems to need it to drive him), but when I tried the demo of S&H, I always felt it was very "clunky" and convoluted.

In a perfect world, NT will come up with their own cool hair & fluids system.
(Hey, a guy's gotta have dreams ya know? ;) )

Lewis
11-25-2005, 03:13 PM
UnCommon Grafx - THIS topic (AFAIK) is about Joe not mentioning LightWave in Interiview - right ??? And I said why to whine about that ? Who cares if he is not mention LW - maybe he didn't want to mention it and maybe he just forgot to mention ( ;)).

I didn't sad S&H isn't welcomed to LW community but what this forum has to do with Joes decision to not mention LW. Why not send him personaly e-mail with that Question? I surely doubt he is reading this forum so what (you) or we can accomplish by "whining" here :). THAT'S my point :).

UnCommonGrafx
11-25-2005, 03:29 PM
And a great point it is.

And that you see my point is great, as well.

Have a great weekend.

Lewis
11-25-2005, 03:45 PM
Ahhhh finally we agreed and come to conclusion :) :D.

You too have a great weekend, mine is already started with some big size renders ;).

Bog
11-25-2005, 03:54 PM
Joe's a nice bloke, he did a lot of good for the 3D community as a whole. It's a shame things between him and NT didn't work out, but I'm sure both sides did their best to reach an equable agreement. Looks like they couldn't do the thing for each other, so both went their ways. Joe's making out OK on his sales, NewTek hasn't been hamstrung or bought by anyone.

Looks like a win for all sides. Maybe not the best win for 'Wavers, but we've got Sas, and we've got Tim Albee's lipsynch stuff (when it comes out), which seems to do much the same job as Lipservice.

I've still got my LS/Shave dongle in my desk drawer. Be nice to fish it out again... but there's stuff here that does the thing. Shave's grooming tools were lovely - no disrepect to Steve Worley, and I'm sure with Nine's modeler tool integration, the Ideal will come much closer. But hey, the road is long.

Earl
11-25-2005, 06:41 PM
I don't particularly feel as though we are missing out on anything by not having S&H. The times that I've used it I felt the tools were awkward and unintuitive - and I never really liked the Joe Alter, Inc company either - but to each their own.

Isn't Steve working on a new evolution of Sasquatch? Or am I just dreaming that up? I thought I remember one of his news updates on his site eluding to that...

Verlon
11-27-2005, 05:01 PM
I loved S&H, and I really loved how Joe responded to my requests for help learning his software.

I keep hoping Joe and NT will resolve differences and work together, but I am optimistic like that.....

toonafish
11-27-2005, 05:34 PM
Just wanted to add a little weight on the pro Jo side of the scale and say I loved using Shave and it produced the best hair I've seen for Lightwave so far. I'd love to see it back in Lightwave.

By the way, you can still use the standalone S&H for grooming your Sas hair. You can use the instance geometry feature to export poly lines from it and with a little trickery, convert those in modeler to 2-point poly lines. Once you know how, it's a breeze.
I downloaded a tutorial for that some time ago, I can look it up if someone is interested.

UnCommonGrafx
11-27-2005, 05:40 PM
And let me properly thank you, sir, as that is how I am able to get what I can from my investment.




For all those that think Joe's arrogance is a problem, you are missing the boat. F(^(^ his arrogance, his code is solid. Every good coder has such issues if you really get down to it. They have to: if they don't believe why should we?!? Read Joes' patent on what he's done; it's definitely worthy of our disappointment that we don't have it.